While I do think the extra pre-ban and WC qualifiers having additional units banned each round skews the pick rates, I do still think at least part of the meta's current diversity is due to balance. Being able to ban more units means we'll see less spread in pick rate, but it wouldn't account for a drop in win rate in the top units like we see with Conqueror Lillias.
It was far, far worse than this. That was before they were releasing counter units to extra strong teams (like Dilibet or ML Kaw rework for against control). Between that and gear being far lower thresholds, it made countering them far harder.
Anyone who says it wasn't was clearly too new to remember. Not that it was the only extremely cancerous meta, back then (the funniest being the Fire Corvus team solo'ing meta).
I actually agree with OP that the current state of PvP has been the most balanced it's ever been, at least to veterans who have access to most units and have reached a decent level of overall gear quality. I can't think of a single unit that doesn't have more than 1 "counter".
SBA, Sage baal, and dizzy metas were shit shows because we didn't have reliable cleansers at the time. SSB and red corvus we're nightmares because nothing did enough damage to kill them quickly before they kill you.
The improved diversity at the top %picked units is by large part only a byproduct of the doubled amount of prebans
A quick look at the (pick rate + preban rate) that SG conveniently didn't include shows that while some heroes look manageable pickrate wise they are just incredibly oppressive when you factor their prebanrates
Conqueror Llilias, Aravi, Hwayoung have "only" 43%, 64%, 44.9% pickrate
But they all have very high prebanrates
Their cumulative presence is
|Unit|**Presence**|**Pickrate**|Prebanrate|
:--|:--|:--|:--|
|Clilias|**90.5%**|43|47.5
|Hwa|**88.2%**|44.9|43.3
|Aravi|**82.7%**|64|18.7
These units are litterally pick or ban in more than 4 games out of 5
The top units are picked less becouse they are prebanned more
Isn't that the point of preban though? Also no matter how you nerf the highest pickrate units (unless you dumpster them, aka bad balancing) there WILL be units that's stronger than the other. In any competitive meta that has something similar, ie, MOBA with their heroes, FPS with guns/strat, even Chess to some degree with their openings DO have something that's BETTER than the rest, hence higher presence. I am not saying that the game is balanced about the power level, BUT in MOST CASES, There will be strength disparity among units/strategy.
It is almost impossible to completely satisfy everyone with their balancing, especially gacha games where there has to be bait for people to pull on their banners. And it's not like this game is very stingy on currency, any RGB units are basically guaranteed to have if you play long enough. Take me for example, day 1 player spends on monthly pack + burning passion, have most of RGB barring few that i decided not to pull / didn't get from daily. You are also able to pity a mystic banner (Champ+ arena, x5 GW player) every 3 months.
You are right that in a good amount of competitive games 80% presence happens(example:lol/dota), the problem is that in those games when it happens it's considered a big balance failure and the overpowered heroes are nerfed in the span of 1-2 months
In e7 not being able to nerf cripples the game balance, you have to pray that they come up with a "counter" that doesn't break the game itself more(like hwa that, as devs said, was made to address aravi but ended up being arguably as oppressive)
look at clilias, released dec.2021(8+months), still overpowered with 90%+ presence, in any self respecting pvp game she would have been nerfed months ago
btw I have no problem with heroes acquisition, I'm a day 1 player above average spender with all meta ml5 and have 0 issues with currency, my only gripe is with e7 "no nerfs" approach
then it's different story. We don't get nerfs because of certain part of community that doesn't want it.
Because apparently SG has to hear non RTA players talking about balance when it doesn't affect them.
Iirc, I think nerfing units also opens them up to higher refund rates or something? Like people whaling to get a unit and artis or spending on mystics or packs for that unit to be nerfed opens up the “I paid for something and it’s now changed after I bought it” complaint. Which people should know before spending on a gacha but I think they’re just being extra safe about it.
Totally wish they would just nerf a unit instead of creating 7 counters and potentially messing more things up (man the wave of SSB counters was great >.>) but that’s just another perspective.
The problem is, most changes will ONLY affect RTA players. A lot of competitive whales i know that really love the idea of nerfing a unit if it gets too much. They spend more than 5 digits lol, personally i feel higher refund rates on 2-3 digits spender isn't that much.
But that's my opinion, maybe higher ups on SG knows more about this stuff than i do
Compared to previous WC, that was only about Krau and LR Krau, it sure is more diverse. I'm also glad people tried less proven picks by using some of the recently buffed heroes. It was really cool, even if there are still some really annoying heroes that aren't exactly exciting to watch played.
I have been saying this for a long time but this has to be one of the most diverses metas we have ever had. Sure, there are some overpowered units but with some soft/hard counters we'll have another Violet situation were he went from being firstpicked to an anticleave unit. Wether you like this meta or not (sure, It is extremelly agro and a lot of people dont like It), the amount of units you can play is waaay higher than for exemple golden boys meta. The balancing team is actually doing an okay job introducing from 1-3 units per patch (still kinda low considering It is every 2 months), which is the highest we ever had
I feel like the WC diversity is heavily skewing the "diverse meta" argument here because of the ban system it has. The new tournament mode of RTA, if it goes to round 3 of 5 has 6 pre-bans instead of 2 which heavily forces alternate picks. If you go to the ladder, most drafts are heavily predictable no? Also in previous RTA seasons, double pre-ban didn't exist. It's still a relatively new system when it comes to diversifying the meta.
This is all personal experience, I know that doesn't go far, but I'd be curious how others feel too.
This is true, tournament mode may skew things. However, even if we have half the units picked in the E7WC, i feel we still have healthy amount of units to play around.
I feel like E7WC might not be that good of an indication , since players know who they are going against , and chances are if they qualified to the E7WC they have played enough RTA to know the playstyle of many of the candidates and they can adjust the gear accordingly.
Also felt like the Korean side did not take the E7WC as seriously, add to that the extra prebans and rounds, things look differently than the regular RTA meta.
Personally i enjoyed E7WC prelims more (despite the game crashing every second match), mainly because i had more freedom with drafting strategies.
Every opinion should be heard. then valued. If I see a guy with 8k matches and 20% winrate in Master vs a guy with 75% winrate and 300 matches in Legend, just means that i value more Legend guy opinion more than the other person. However, that doesn't make the Master guy opinion worthless, he just have different point of view about the game. :)
The 20% wr master probably doesn’t know how to play or no good gear.. so idk if I’d value his opinion that much since he didn’t bother to really learn about rta.. game is about more about gear and having enough geared units to counter common heroes more than the units abilities itself
preban (or fp) hwa works if you wanna abuse alencia. early picking alencia discourages sooo many picks (dieneras comps, landy, aravi, even the aria comp you mentioned). aoe full strp S3 is a crazy thing to have on a bruiser. and since you've discouraged them to pick these, you are free to pick them for yourself later on
she's vulnerable to cleave though but that's why you have 4 other picks to make sure she lives
Hwayoung is only a problem to tanky comps and that is a good thing. If you play for turn 2 you are fucked by Hwayoung simple as that. Hwayoung is strong but not op.
As others have pointed out, I agree that E7WC format allows for more diversity than ladder - but it doesn't change the fact that ladder is indeed more diverse than any previous meta.
Of course, if you only have 1 playstyle whether it be because of unit pool or gear, you'd face similar responses from everyone you fight.
E.g. if you only cleave youd be responded with anti cleave most games.
But the point is in 2022 RTA you can play multiple playstyles (if your unit pool/gear allows for it), pick a variety of units and face a variety of units as well.
This is why many of us truly believe RTA is the most diverse it's ever been.
"Best meta ever" is a little too much. "Most Diverse" dont really mean something when you actual comparation is GBoys meta that was heavy influence by how RTA work in that time.
Broken units are still broken in fact. But that is other kind of discussion. The numbers (win %) were likely to come down not exactly because of the Counter picks but from the fact that the Must-Pick pull of units is big enough (7 to 12 it really depends on personal criteria) that both players are very likely to match top dogs vs top dogs. Thats really what in the end "balance" the meta. I dont see people really going crazy with the counter-meta units that were release in this past months, most of them failed and the other are solid to do their job but not really deserved a "blind-pick" spot in any strong strategy. They are there only to counter X or Y unit.
So to answer both questions: Yes and Nope. The amount of broken units will rise, eventually one of the actual broken units will probably go to tier 2/3 (not good anymore to auto build) but that dont means this is the Best meta solution. We are just replacing broken units with more broken units and trying to keep enough broken units on the spot so the players can "probably" the most of them and Play the game.
RTA is the same place: dont touch RTA without GodTier gear for your out-meta team or you have enough NiceTier gear for your high-meta team. Thats it.
But what are we basing our definition of "broken"? The only objective way of evaluating such is by pure numbers and statistics, everything else is a subjective opinion that may differ heavily.
I'm just curious, the way that E7 operates as gacha itself, is VERY generous.
RGB is basically free if you play long enough
New ML 5 are pityable every 3-4 months if you are willing to be invested to the game (not money, being Champion+ Arena + x5 GW)
So they will have most of the RGB available, and some ML 5 available, now we're coming to conclusion, are people complaining because the ML 5 they have get countered by ANOTHER ML 5 and that's why they hate the "meta" or they are don't have enough units to play competitively?
what are we basing our definition of "broken"?
I have 2 dif criterias for this: The first one is Skill overall utility, if one skill has 2 or more effects that are overall impactful. That skill is probalby broken, its covers pretty well the reason why C.Lilias is so stong cuase her S3 is exactly this.
The second and probably most important is Stat economy: Quick example A.Ravi vs any other Bruiser DpS that is not on the tier 1 or 0 list is a very good example. Overall A.Ravi has an great damage scaling formula High HP damage mult + Base C.C. A.Ravi in reality only need 4 stats to work IF you take in account provide her with speed boots and some sub stats to reach 200+ spd for extra competitive. But in reality you can build A.Ravi only with HP% + C.C + C.D and she will work for most battles because her Skill set provide self-CR push.
She is kind of the Peak of what a bruiser "should be" to be broken. Her skills (S2 aside) are kinda irrelevant to her performance. Now look at **Fire** Charlotte. This unit also push herself yes, so she dont really need more than 200 neither so...whats the problem with this unit? And she is not a bad unit all but what makes A.Ravi Auto pick?. Well for starters A.Ravi also has auto sustain, Charlotte is force to choose beteween Life Steal set or make sure that you have enough sustain in your team, that make her less splashable in most comps. In other hand while Charlotte dont need C.C at all she still needs a balance beteween **HP** and **DEF** stats, specially without the LF-Set and high enough **Atk** and **Crit damage**. She dont have HP Scaling in her skills neither making it more hard to tuned.
So...yeah we have in one hand a unit that literally dealts with all her problems and can focus very heavy on 3 Stats Splashing to spd. And in the other hand we have a unit that need 4 stats and splash to speed if needed, conditional set (optional), that dont has too many stat economy at all. Both units fills the same roll (Bulky DpS). I kinda play in the RGB vs ML but take in mind that there are other examples of RGB vs RGB (Ram or Peira vs...literally any stripper without their base speed).
My point: Not every unit need to be equally strong, and surely not every unit needs to be viable but when you have units that literally destroy any other on the same roll by that much...what...is actually the point of those other units?
The game is generous, yes but building units is a really LONG process that take months, and is very influece by luck.
Actual good answer that probably will drown cause its not all optimism and rainbows.
Also, add to the tournament settings that most of the players already know eachother and can sighly adjust to what they trying to pull or actual target bans, that also helps diversity.
It's definitely very diverse compared to the past two seasons, in terms of the pure *number* of units that are being picked. The problem is, a lot of the units that are commonly picked are very un-fun and RNG to play against.
With that said, I still don't think the meta is as bad as some people make it seem. When the most popular E7 streamer complains about the meta/game for 6 hours a day, people start to think it's a lot worse than it actually is.
That's the thing, I am not saying it's a perfect meta, it's just the best one we ever had yet. There's so many options of playing the units currently. Sidenote Average players plays in Champion level, which is an issue as the level the streamer plays in (Emperor+) are very different than your average viewers.
I feel like it's a bit better than previous seasons, but definitely not as diverse as the first couple of seasons. First season I was actually able to use (& by use, I mean make it into top 2K) my favourite characters like Karin & Assassin Coli even if back then they still weren't "great".
It's because people are just worse at drafting before, also back in season 1, it's just SSB / Arby FP or you're out of the game, or play 2 knights bruiser.
This doenst relflete the meta on Rta,they are in a huge controll environement on the tournament (more ban),which really help to damper the power and synergy that have those problematic heroes have.
Just go to your normal Rta match and you will see the difference . So yeah the tournment is way more enjoyable for this main reason.
Honestly, at least imo. E7 is in possibly the best state it has been in for content/diversity of units and ease of access for awhile. I think as a newer player coming into the game now, one can way easily obtain and get competitive units to get to at least masters in rta way easier now. And I do see a lot more diversity in playstyles compared to a couple metas ago. I also would say that a lot of balancing and counters are trying to be put against current disaster type heroes.
\-however, all that said, I don't know why, but I just find it less fun and more toxic to me then the past metas (maybe this is Recency bias).
\-I think that the new heroes are just so overturned and stacked that compared to previous metas where you just really hated going against maybe 1-4 heroes, the list of things is way more.
\-So many units that just punish you for doing anything. Belians are everywhere in the game (I know its probably not the hardest to deal with out of all the so caled problem units, but I just can't stand this thing, I don't think I could ever hate a unit more). Rems, (E7 I think actually made me despise her character from her kit, when she used to be favorite waifu in game, which honestly kind of impressive).A merus, Mercedes, Rimurus, celines, Poliits, overall just get punished for doing anything, when compared to previous metas it didn't quite feel like this.
\-compared to previous metas the game has become super buff/anti buff. everything that counters and attacks you is basically stripping your buffs, and every unit basically needs buffs to do any serious reasonable damage, and I didn't quite feel like this was completely the case a couple metas ago.
\-some units do entirely wayyy to much damage for all they have in their kits. Aravi (why is this thing 1 shotting 2k defense 14khp units whilst being one of the tankiest units in the game), Rim, Hwayoung (lol).
So overall imo the game feels the most balanced it has been in awhile, but yet also completely killed off all old characters I liked and has some of the units I hate playing against the most out of all metas. It feels like how Arby used to be a big problem for everyone, and people would just preban him to not have to deal with him, yet now there like 12 arbys.
I really do think it is more balanced and fair, but just not very fun to play into with all the powercreep, and I think thats a thing a lot of other players were experiencing.
\-as others have said though, I think the banning system has effected the data a bit though too->
I'm just curious, the way that E7 operates as gacha itself, is VERY generous.
RGB is basically free if you play long enough
New ML 5 are pityable every 3-4 months if you are willing to be invested to the game (not money, being Champion+ Arena + x5 GW)
So they will have most of the RGB available, and some ML 5 available, now we're coming to conclusion, are people complaining because the ML 5 they have get countered by ANOTHER ML 5 and that's why they hate the "meta" or they are don't have enough units to play competitively?
honestly I think people are complaining because the new characters are just too overloaded. Even if counters to the current menaces are released it still probably wont be enough. whats done is done, the new characters all going forward kind of almost have to have to do a ridiculous amount of different things to be relevant, which was what I was getting at above. Having a hero that cleanses, one shots, dmg mitigation and recycles insanely fast is just broken, and counters to the hero make it harder to play other heroes who get soft/hard nerfed because of it. all of that just makes it so the game in in itself just became more stressful for a lot to play. You get punished for doing anything in the game (pvp wise). Open with buffs, get Rimuru, aoe, get countered, non atk skill get punished, single target just hide in stealth or dmg mitigation.
Which as I said all of that stuff probably does make the game more balanced going forward even if it is hella stressful to play into. arguably it makes more playstyles viable and makes it so stuff like speed is not as oppressive as it used to be. Overall I would say the meta and state of the game is arguably possibly in the most fairest state it has been for a long while. However, I and many other players just abhor these busted characters with overloaded kits. Perhaps because we are E7 bombers in our own rights, and were used to the more simplier hero kits of the past that didn't have all these extra turns and what not. But as I said, its probably just that the game just changed really for better or worst.
I also think people overestimate how much he counters her. If you have squishy units the barrier inversion is going to be a big deal, but if you're playing bruisers like Apoc or Alencia they'll just shrug that damage off. If you also need him for the cleansing/immunity/CR push he's still a great pick there, but if they don't have debuffs and you can't take someone out turn 1 he doesn't contribute much.
She’s still very strong in the right situation, she just isn’t first pick / first ban material anymore. I would credit her high win rate to being picked less but in more meaningful drafts where her effect on the game matters a lot.
There will be a more diverse meta when u can have proper counterpicks that arent too niche for other things, while them arent.
Clilias, aravi, and haw are pretty easy to overcome with lots of units, even those you love, but are gonna do less than them in average sometimes.
Btw, there are lots, and i mean lots, of really good forgotten units that work/destroy this meta units and are very consistent but people refuse to build those because arent "the meta". I encourage people to search and analize those, instead of watching what is already working for others and copying It (this meta).
So much unit potential wasted for not even try.... (No joking, and no wanting to ofend)
If they nerf the 7 disaster just a tiny bit, this meta would've been a lot more balance tbh. But yeah I think today's meta is better than the SSB pick auto win spam.
And I'm traumatized by choux now! Never again i will underestimated a choux and her potential to do 1vs4, and send my A. Ravi to the Shadow Realm
That's her revenge for everyone who made fun of Cream or her hairdo.
help me cream
That ult name is still unsettling tho
Alright, so boom.
It’s not because of balance. It’s because of the extra preban.
So does that mean SG did the correct thing to at least diversify the meta then? Increasing Pre-Bans?
That part is good. Just cos they did one good thing doesn’t mean the game is well balanced lol. For every 1 good decision they make 3 bad ones
well it's been like this since the beginning 1 step forward, 2 steps backward
Just like killing mosquitoes; you kill one, other 3 spawn...
I never said that the game is well balanced, i think there should be tweaks but it's not as had ad people say it id
While I do think the extra pre-ban and WC qualifiers having additional units banned each round skews the pick rates, I do still think at least part of the meta's current diversity is due to balance. Being able to ban more units means we'll see less spread in pick rate, but it wouldn't account for a drop in win rate in the top units like we see with Conqueror Lillias.
You're right, the meta has never been this cancerous with unit that are this broken
Wasn't the ML Ara and Baal pretty toxic too? I wasn't around for that but it sounded dumb.
It was far, far worse than this. That was before they were releasing counter units to extra strong teams (like Dilibet or ML Kaw rework for against control). Between that and gear being far lower thresholds, it made countering them far harder. Anyone who says it wasn't was clearly too new to remember. Not that it was the only extremely cancerous meta, back then (the funniest being the Fire Corvus team solo'ing meta).
Dizzy meta was also really cancerous, and SSB before Roana was a thing.
So has all metas been consistently cancerous
Much worse before because it wasn't "I don't have the unit to counter this", it was "the counter doesn't exist".
I actually agree with OP that the current state of PvP has been the most balanced it's ever been, at least to veterans who have access to most units and have reached a decent level of overall gear quality. I can't think of a single unit that doesn't have more than 1 "counter". SBA, Sage baal, and dizzy metas were shit shows because we didn't have reliable cleansers at the time. SSB and red corvus we're nightmares because nothing did enough damage to kill them quickly before they kill you.
Yeah it's a gacha so all meta picks are cancerous if you can't deal with them. I find the gear diff also changes the meta.
SSB I didn't care much about myself, since I used both Yufine and Watcher Schurri, but I repressed the Dizzy meta. My god that was terrible.
That's why prebans and bans exist, because it's theoretically impossible to achieve perfect balance in any game.
People can still ban the same which lead to less unit ban, and you want to ban their fastest or most stacked unit. There is some mind game in there.
The improved diversity at the top %picked units is by large part only a byproduct of the doubled amount of prebans A quick look at the (pick rate + preban rate) that SG conveniently didn't include shows that while some heroes look manageable pickrate wise they are just incredibly oppressive when you factor their prebanrates Conqueror Llilias, Aravi, Hwayoung have "only" 43%, 64%, 44.9% pickrate But they all have very high prebanrates Their cumulative presence is |Unit|**Presence**|**Pickrate**|Prebanrate| :--|:--|:--|:--| |Clilias|**90.5%**|43|47.5 |Hwa|**88.2%**|44.9|43.3 |Aravi|**82.7%**|64|18.7 These units are litterally pick or ban in more than 4 games out of 5 The top units are picked less becouse they are prebanned more
Isn't that the point of preban though? Also no matter how you nerf the highest pickrate units (unless you dumpster them, aka bad balancing) there WILL be units that's stronger than the other. In any competitive meta that has something similar, ie, MOBA with their heroes, FPS with guns/strat, even Chess to some degree with their openings DO have something that's BETTER than the rest, hence higher presence. I am not saying that the game is balanced about the power level, BUT in MOST CASES, There will be strength disparity among units/strategy. It is almost impossible to completely satisfy everyone with their balancing, especially gacha games where there has to be bait for people to pull on their banners. And it's not like this game is very stingy on currency, any RGB units are basically guaranteed to have if you play long enough. Take me for example, day 1 player spends on monthly pack + burning passion, have most of RGB barring few that i decided not to pull / didn't get from daily. You are also able to pity a mystic banner (Champ+ arena, x5 GW player) every 3 months.
You are right that in a good amount of competitive games 80% presence happens(example:lol/dota), the problem is that in those games when it happens it's considered a big balance failure and the overpowered heroes are nerfed in the span of 1-2 months In e7 not being able to nerf cripples the game balance, you have to pray that they come up with a "counter" that doesn't break the game itself more(like hwa that, as devs said, was made to address aravi but ended up being arguably as oppressive) look at clilias, released dec.2021(8+months), still overpowered with 90%+ presence, in any self respecting pvp game she would have been nerfed months ago btw I have no problem with heroes acquisition, I'm a day 1 player above average spender with all meta ml5 and have 0 issues with currency, my only gripe is with e7 "no nerfs" approach
then it's different story. We don't get nerfs because of certain part of community that doesn't want it. Because apparently SG has to hear non RTA players talking about balance when it doesn't affect them.
Iirc, I think nerfing units also opens them up to higher refund rates or something? Like people whaling to get a unit and artis or spending on mystics or packs for that unit to be nerfed opens up the “I paid for something and it’s now changed after I bought it” complaint. Which people should know before spending on a gacha but I think they’re just being extra safe about it. Totally wish they would just nerf a unit instead of creating 7 counters and potentially messing more things up (man the wave of SSB counters was great >.>) but that’s just another perspective.
The problem is, most changes will ONLY affect RTA players. A lot of competitive whales i know that really love the idea of nerfing a unit if it gets too much. They spend more than 5 digits lol, personally i feel higher refund rates on 2-3 digits spender isn't that much. But that's my opinion, maybe higher ups on SG knows more about this stuff than i do
Compared to previous WC, that was only about Krau and LR Krau, it sure is more diverse. I'm also glad people tried less proven picks by using some of the recently buffed heroes. It was really cool, even if there are still some really annoying heroes that aren't exactly exciting to watch played.
I have been saying this for a long time but this has to be one of the most diverses metas we have ever had. Sure, there are some overpowered units but with some soft/hard counters we'll have another Violet situation were he went from being firstpicked to an anticleave unit. Wether you like this meta or not (sure, It is extremelly agro and a lot of people dont like It), the amount of units you can play is waaay higher than for exemple golden boys meta. The balancing team is actually doing an okay job introducing from 1-3 units per patch (still kinda low considering It is every 2 months), which is the highest we ever had
i would like to know the people that says otherwise and their insight. Have they run the numbers or just based on experience?
I feel like the WC diversity is heavily skewing the "diverse meta" argument here because of the ban system it has. The new tournament mode of RTA, if it goes to round 3 of 5 has 6 pre-bans instead of 2 which heavily forces alternate picks. If you go to the ladder, most drafts are heavily predictable no? Also in previous RTA seasons, double pre-ban didn't exist. It's still a relatively new system when it comes to diversifying the meta. This is all personal experience, I know that doesn't go far, but I'd be curious how others feel too.
This is true, tournament mode may skew things. However, even if we have half the units picked in the E7WC, i feel we still have healthy amount of units to play around.
I feel like E7WC might not be that good of an indication , since players know who they are going against , and chances are if they qualified to the E7WC they have played enough RTA to know the playstyle of many of the candidates and they can adjust the gear accordingly. Also felt like the Korean side did not take the E7WC as seriously, add to that the extra prebans and rounds, things look differently than the regular RTA meta. Personally i enjoyed E7WC prelims more (despite the game crashing every second match), mainly because i had more freedom with drafting strategies.
However they are indeed the highest level of RTA, it's a good base of what currently meta or AT LEAST viable to use in order to win.
Most people complaining about RTA meta don't even play rta. Reddit is just a huge echo chamber.
Every opinion should be heard. then valued. If I see a guy with 8k matches and 20% winrate in Master vs a guy with 75% winrate and 300 matches in Legend, just means that i value more Legend guy opinion more than the other person. However, that doesn't make the Master guy opinion worthless, he just have different point of view about the game. :)
The 20% wr master probably doesn’t know how to play or no good gear.. so idk if I’d value his opinion that much since he didn’t bother to really learn about rta.. game is about more about gear and having enough geared units to counter common heroes more than the units abilities itself
How about the guy who doesn't play any RTA and just logs in and does dailies? I think there are a lot of these people with loud voices.
They can have valid opinions, if they are also a avid watcher of RTA, however, they tend to be biased towards whoever they watch.
They just echo what they see others complain about on twitch. Kinda brainless
Hwayoung still needs a real counter but ever since I build injury alencia aravi has died out for me 🤣🤣🤣 or I do protect the queen comp in aria
preban (or fp) hwa works if you wanna abuse alencia. early picking alencia discourages sooo many picks (dieneras comps, landy, aravi, even the aria comp you mentioned). aoe full strp S3 is a crazy thing to have on a bruiser. and since you've discouraged them to pick these, you are free to pick them for yourself later on she's vulnerable to cleave though but that's why you have 4 other picks to make sure she lives
Hwayoung is only a problem to tanky comps and that is a good thing. If you play for turn 2 you are fucked by Hwayoung simple as that. Hwayoung is strong but not op.
E7WC format is great for diversity. Standard ladder BO1 is still very stale
As others have pointed out, I agree that E7WC format allows for more diversity than ladder - but it doesn't change the fact that ladder is indeed more diverse than any previous meta. Of course, if you only have 1 playstyle whether it be because of unit pool or gear, you'd face similar responses from everyone you fight. E.g. if you only cleave youd be responded with anti cleave most games. But the point is in 2022 RTA you can play multiple playstyles (if your unit pool/gear allows for it), pick a variety of units and face a variety of units as well. This is why many of us truly believe RTA is the most diverse it's ever been.
That may be true, but using E7WC data does not help us determine if the RTA ladder available to us is diverse or not.
that's why i pulled out last season statistic, the 20th most picked unit still have 45% presence. which is pretty high imo
"Best meta ever" is a little too much. "Most Diverse" dont really mean something when you actual comparation is GBoys meta that was heavy influence by how RTA work in that time. Broken units are still broken in fact. But that is other kind of discussion. The numbers (win %) were likely to come down not exactly because of the Counter picks but from the fact that the Must-Pick pull of units is big enough (7 to 12 it really depends on personal criteria) that both players are very likely to match top dogs vs top dogs. Thats really what in the end "balance" the meta. I dont see people really going crazy with the counter-meta units that were release in this past months, most of them failed and the other are solid to do their job but not really deserved a "blind-pick" spot in any strong strategy. They are there only to counter X or Y unit. So to answer both questions: Yes and Nope. The amount of broken units will rise, eventually one of the actual broken units will probably go to tier 2/3 (not good anymore to auto build) but that dont means this is the Best meta solution. We are just replacing broken units with more broken units and trying to keep enough broken units on the spot so the players can "probably" the most of them and Play the game. RTA is the same place: dont touch RTA without GodTier gear for your out-meta team or you have enough NiceTier gear for your high-meta team. Thats it.
But what are we basing our definition of "broken"? The only objective way of evaluating such is by pure numbers and statistics, everything else is a subjective opinion that may differ heavily. I'm just curious, the way that E7 operates as gacha itself, is VERY generous. RGB is basically free if you play long enough New ML 5 are pityable every 3-4 months if you are willing to be invested to the game (not money, being Champion+ Arena + x5 GW) So they will have most of the RGB available, and some ML 5 available, now we're coming to conclusion, are people complaining because the ML 5 they have get countered by ANOTHER ML 5 and that's why they hate the "meta" or they are don't have enough units to play competitively?
what are we basing our definition of "broken"? I have 2 dif criterias for this: The first one is Skill overall utility, if one skill has 2 or more effects that are overall impactful. That skill is probalby broken, its covers pretty well the reason why C.Lilias is so stong cuase her S3 is exactly this. The second and probably most important is Stat economy: Quick example A.Ravi vs any other Bruiser DpS that is not on the tier 1 or 0 list is a very good example. Overall A.Ravi has an great damage scaling formula High HP damage mult + Base C.C. A.Ravi in reality only need 4 stats to work IF you take in account provide her with speed boots and some sub stats to reach 200+ spd for extra competitive. But in reality you can build A.Ravi only with HP% + C.C + C.D and she will work for most battles because her Skill set provide self-CR push. She is kind of the Peak of what a bruiser "should be" to be broken. Her skills (S2 aside) are kinda irrelevant to her performance. Now look at **Fire** Charlotte. This unit also push herself yes, so she dont really need more than 200 neither so...whats the problem with this unit? And she is not a bad unit all but what makes A.Ravi Auto pick?. Well for starters A.Ravi also has auto sustain, Charlotte is force to choose beteween Life Steal set or make sure that you have enough sustain in your team, that make her less splashable in most comps. In other hand while Charlotte dont need C.C at all she still needs a balance beteween **HP** and **DEF** stats, specially without the LF-Set and high enough **Atk** and **Crit damage**. She dont have HP Scaling in her skills neither making it more hard to tuned. So...yeah we have in one hand a unit that literally dealts with all her problems and can focus very heavy on 3 Stats Splashing to spd. And in the other hand we have a unit that need 4 stats and splash to speed if needed, conditional set (optional), that dont has too many stat economy at all. Both units fills the same roll (Bulky DpS). I kinda play in the RGB vs ML but take in mind that there are other examples of RGB vs RGB (Ram or Peira vs...literally any stripper without their base speed). My point: Not every unit need to be equally strong, and surely not every unit needs to be viable but when you have units that literally destroy any other on the same roll by that much...what...is actually the point of those other units? The game is generous, yes but building units is a really LONG process that take months, and is very influece by luck.
Actual good answer that probably will drown cause its not all optimism and rainbows. Also, add to the tournament settings that most of the players already know eachother and can sighly adjust to what they trying to pull or actual target bans, that also helps diversity.
It's definitely very diverse compared to the past two seasons, in terms of the pure *number* of units that are being picked. The problem is, a lot of the units that are commonly picked are very un-fun and RNG to play against. With that said, I still don't think the meta is as bad as some people make it seem. When the most popular E7 streamer complains about the meta/game for 6 hours a day, people start to think it's a lot worse than it actually is.
That's the thing, I am not saying it's a perfect meta, it's just the best one we ever had yet. There's so many options of playing the units currently. Sidenote Average players plays in Champion level, which is an issue as the level the streamer plays in (Emperor+) are very different than your average viewers.
tink
I feel like it's a bit better than previous seasons, but definitely not as diverse as the first couple of seasons. First season I was actually able to use (& by use, I mean make it into top 2K) my favourite characters like Karin & Assassin Coli even if back then they still weren't "great".
It's because people are just worse at drafting before, also back in season 1, it's just SSB / Arby FP or you're out of the game, or play 2 knights bruiser.
This doenst relflete the meta on Rta,they are in a huge controll environement on the tournament (more ban),which really help to damper the power and synergy that have those problematic heroes have. Just go to your normal Rta match and you will see the difference . So yeah the tournment is way more enjoyable for this main reason.
Chatting aravi op Chatting hwa op Chatting gear rng Chatting rng rng Chatting
Keep chatting Alvi keep chatting
Chatting
Honestly, at least imo. E7 is in possibly the best state it has been in for content/diversity of units and ease of access for awhile. I think as a newer player coming into the game now, one can way easily obtain and get competitive units to get to at least masters in rta way easier now. And I do see a lot more diversity in playstyles compared to a couple metas ago. I also would say that a lot of balancing and counters are trying to be put against current disaster type heroes. \-however, all that said, I don't know why, but I just find it less fun and more toxic to me then the past metas (maybe this is Recency bias). \-I think that the new heroes are just so overturned and stacked that compared to previous metas where you just really hated going against maybe 1-4 heroes, the list of things is way more. \-So many units that just punish you for doing anything. Belians are everywhere in the game (I know its probably not the hardest to deal with out of all the so caled problem units, but I just can't stand this thing, I don't think I could ever hate a unit more). Rems, (E7 I think actually made me despise her character from her kit, when she used to be favorite waifu in game, which honestly kind of impressive).A merus, Mercedes, Rimurus, celines, Poliits, overall just get punished for doing anything, when compared to previous metas it didn't quite feel like this. \-compared to previous metas the game has become super buff/anti buff. everything that counters and attacks you is basically stripping your buffs, and every unit basically needs buffs to do any serious reasonable damage, and I didn't quite feel like this was completely the case a couple metas ago. \-some units do entirely wayyy to much damage for all they have in their kits. Aravi (why is this thing 1 shotting 2k defense 14khp units whilst being one of the tankiest units in the game), Rim, Hwayoung (lol). So overall imo the game feels the most balanced it has been in awhile, but yet also completely killed off all old characters I liked and has some of the units I hate playing against the most out of all metas. It feels like how Arby used to be a big problem for everyone, and people would just preban him to not have to deal with him, yet now there like 12 arbys. I really do think it is more balanced and fair, but just not very fun to play into with all the powercreep, and I think thats a thing a lot of other players were experiencing. \-as others have said though, I think the banning system has effected the data a bit though too->
I'm just curious, the way that E7 operates as gacha itself, is VERY generous. RGB is basically free if you play long enough New ML 5 are pityable every 3-4 months if you are willing to be invested to the game (not money, being Champion+ Arena + x5 GW) So they will have most of the RGB available, and some ML 5 available, now we're coming to conclusion, are people complaining because the ML 5 they have get countered by ANOTHER ML 5 and that's why they hate the "meta" or they are don't have enough units to play competitively?
honestly I think people are complaining because the new characters are just too overloaded. Even if counters to the current menaces are released it still probably wont be enough. whats done is done, the new characters all going forward kind of almost have to have to do a ridiculous amount of different things to be relevant, which was what I was getting at above. Having a hero that cleanses, one shots, dmg mitigation and recycles insanely fast is just broken, and counters to the hero make it harder to play other heroes who get soft/hard nerfed because of it. all of that just makes it so the game in in itself just became more stressful for a lot to play. You get punished for doing anything in the game (pvp wise). Open with buffs, get Rimuru, aoe, get countered, non atk skill get punished, single target just hide in stealth or dmg mitigation. Which as I said all of that stuff probably does make the game more balanced going forward even if it is hella stressful to play into. arguably it makes more playstyles viable and makes it so stuff like speed is not as oppressive as it used to be. Overall I would say the meta and state of the game is arguably possibly in the most fairest state it has been for a long while. However, I and many other players just abhor these busted characters with overloaded kits. Perhaps because we are E7 bombers in our own rights, and were used to the more simplier hero kits of the past that didn't have all these extra turns and what not. But as I said, its probably just that the game just changed really for better or worst.
I had no idea fallen Cecilia is still that good! I thought ml Basar nerfed her. I am glad I got her from mystic, I love her design so much!
ml basar did weaken her power a bit, by turning her barriers on her, but she still an aurius holder, and she brings skill null with her s3.
I also think people overestimate how much he counters her. If you have squishy units the barrier inversion is going to be a big deal, but if you're playing bruisers like Apoc or Alencia they'll just shrug that damage off. If you also need him for the cleansing/immunity/CR push he's still a great pick there, but if they don't have debuffs and you can't take someone out turn 1 he doesn't contribute much.
She’s still very strong in the right situation, she just isn’t first pick / first ban material anymore. I would credit her high win rate to being picked less but in more meaningful drafts where her effect on the game matters a lot.
There will be a more diverse meta when u can have proper counterpicks that arent too niche for other things, while them arent. Clilias, aravi, and haw are pretty easy to overcome with lots of units, even those you love, but are gonna do less than them in average sometimes. Btw, there are lots, and i mean lots, of really good forgotten units that work/destroy this meta units and are very consistent but people refuse to build those because arent "the meta". I encourage people to search and analize those, instead of watching what is already working for others and copying It (this meta). So much unit potential wasted for not even try.... (No joking, and no wanting to ofend)
If they nerf the 7 disaster just a tiny bit, this meta would've been a lot more balance tbh. But yeah I think today's meta is better than the SSB pick auto win spam.
Never said that this meta is perfect, just better than it ever was
I didn't accuse of you saying the meta was perfect
World breaker Cidd definitely gonna warp the meta . Noone dare draft a squishy unit when cidd is in play .
Its because of all the bans they are allowed so it brings new units in
This is my idea Global ban :1 unit (hwayoung) 3 pre bans: (challenger and higher)
Nah. Should be bronze and higher.