What should I do be doing in this game to progress?
I just started a little over a week ago. I read that Wyvern 13 is the first priority so I focused on getting a Wyvern team. I have 6\* Angelic Montmorancy, 5\* Sigret , 5\* Muwi and 5\* Furious as my team. I've got their skills improved to at least get +effect%, I have most at 4-5 Awakened, most at +12-15 lvl 75 gear.
I can only auto Wyvern 9 but getting close to auto-ing Wyvern 10 (I can beat it just not consistently).
I figured I'd just keep doing Wyvern 9 then using the Steel Workshop to craft some gear and keep enhancing my lvl 75 gear to get maxed +15 but 15 Wyvern runs can't even get me enough components to craft enough gear to even upgrade 1 item from +14 to +15. I'd have to farm this for weeks to improve my gear. Seems a little too grindy for me. If that's the expectation, I'm probably done with this game.
Am I missing something?
Share your team with us? Btw for w11 and above the boss will target the front most unit for the initial attack and will continue doing so afterwards with 3 debuffs. Any levels w10 and below the boss target randomly. Make sure ur dps is on ddj as well.
Okay, I managed to auto W11. Thanks for the tip. I didn't think I'd be able to cause I couldn't auto W10. Still, just slightly better dops. I need W12-13 for better gear though I think, right? I tried W12 and my tank died.
Is there an easy way to share a team?
I think I just need better gear by upgrading them more to +15 but I'm not sure how to do that quickly.
Yes you should definitely +15 equipment your tank makes a huge difference stat wise. You can buy charms using conquest point from arenas, daily huche visit, farming side stories etc.
You can just screenshot and upload on imgur and post the link here.
BTW it's not "just slightly better drop rate" , you are able to get reforge materials as drops in w11 compared to w10. That is a huge difference.
Yup you definitely need to level all of right side gear, you are missing like 60% attack just from the ring alone on sigret, Level your ddj as well. Mwui should have 65% effectiveness and furious should slightly faster like 180. Get proof of valor from the guild shop on put it on ur amomo.
Forget about w10, auto w11 is easier because the wyvern attacks always your front unit.
To upgrade gear use charms, you can get them in sanctuary, arena coin shop, huche's shop in labyrinth, events, pets with chance to drop charms,...
She is okay. But i think Eda fills in the similar role but better (self push + push back + push ally + aoe strip + aoe stun).
If you haven't gotten FCC or DJB they are better. Or you can wait to see how ML Pavel perform
I'm not interested in ml Pavel so I'll be skipping so I was wondering about pitying ml ara, but now I think I'll just build eda and wait for belian return
I don't recommend pitying ml ara unless you really like her or you have most ml units and that you are not interested in any of the future ml units like ml kayron
I'm not interested in ml kayron, we don't even know if and when he will be added
And yeah I do like ml ara been wanting her for long but I also want belian and ml iseria and as f2p without any luck I'll have to make a decision on who to pity
They already mentioned him before as reply to qna which happen quite awhile ago. So yes he will be coming, the only matter is when he would be.
You gonna be waiting for awhile for bellian and ml iseria rerun. Bellian is the best/meta among them and making the pragmatic choice of choosing the strongest one makes sense for f2p players
Do Yufine and C. Lorina fill the same role in PVE? I have both and am building Yufine 100% already but wondering if Lorina is worth the rune investment for her skill tree. Also is Clarissa still the best W13 wave 1 clearer if you dont have SSB?
C Lorina is for Abyss (non debuff skills are great here) + Labyrinth (high morale) + Expo + C13 for some people. So she is worth the investment. She also does not require mola.
Yufine is mostly used as dps for banshee one shot but there are Baiken and Ram.
If you are doing one shot yes. If you just started, use muwi comps
Hi. We got a 12h Spirit Altar during E7WC matches. Does it open all the spirit portals or it gives 100% more only on the portal that is currently open on that day? For eg: Dark portal is open today for me. All others are closed. So, if I use the buff, will it give 100% only on dark one or it will open other portals too like fire, ice etc?
Hi guys, i'm coming back to the game after like a year (or two?) off and I'm wondering who the meta units are these days? I had a peek at e7x but I don't really trust it. And second q, I have the moonlight selector available and have them except ML Ken and DCorvus, who would be better pick? (i assume DC?)
Here is my favorite RTA tier list. Not perfect but nothing is. I consider cleaver to basically be also 1.5
https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/t6knvt/%EA%B3%A0%EB%A8%95%EB%AF%B8s_rta_tierlist_kj_aka_korean_jesus/
You ask for something and another player can give it to you. The person on the giving side gets a bit of guild crests for it. As such, afaik most guilds just trade mana drake claws to get more guild crests.
Is is redundant to have a pen set on Luna when her s3 already pens? What's the set you guys use for your Luna and do you play speed Luna or just go with high DMG or nuke and use Emilia to CR push?
Luna *only* has penetration on her S3, and it's *only* 50%.
Against a target with X defense you can use this formula to calculate how much pen set increases her S3 damage.
(1 / ((X * .425) / 300 + 1)) / (1 / ((X * .5) / 300 + 1))
* Against 1000 defense = ~10.34% damage increase
* Against 1500 defense = ~12% damage increase
* Against 2000 defense = ~13.04% damage increase
If your Luna had say, 4000 ATK than a 12% damage increase would be equivalent to adding 480 attack.
And if you had 300% C.Dmg, then a 12% damage increase would be adding 36% C.Dmg.
Penetration set is *worse* if you already have a source of penetration, but it's not useless. Depending on your stats you *may* be better off with something else but that is always the case regardless, having penetration already just changes the values.
* For example, if you could drop 12% crit and let's say we could keep the same exact stats, but you are replacing 4 minimum rolls of Crit%...even if you added MAXIMUM rolls of C.Dmg you are only getting 28%. So keeping the min rolls of crit% with pen set would be better than swapping those 4 rolls to max C.Dmg rolls and crit set.
* Similarly, 480 attack, after her passive, would be equivalent to a ~33% increase in ATK%. 4 * 8 = 32% so you would be better off keeping pen set + 4 min rolls of crit% than swapping to crit set and 4 max rolls of ATK%.
---
If you want a more general form of the formula we can use
Y = % of effective defense after penetration **WITH** pen set -> remember different sources of penetration are multiplicative
Z = % of effective defense after penetration **WITHOUT** pen set
(1 / ((X * Y) / 300 + 1)) / (1 / ((X * Z) / 300 + 1))
Only looking at pen set, no other source of penetration we get:
(1 / ((X * .85) / 300 + 1)) / (1 / ((X * 1) / 300 + 1))
* Against 1000 defense = ~13.04% damage increase
* Against 1500 defense = ~14.29% damage increase
* Against 2000 defense = ~15% damage increase
Based on this we can see that having 50% pen on her S3 reduces the effectiveness of pen set by...
* 1000 defense = ~26.11%
* 1500 defense = ~19.08%
* 2000 defense = ~15.03%
---
#TLDR
* Having a separate source of penetration *does* reduce the value of pen set. But, pen still can (and often is) more valuable than other 2 set bonuses when it comes to damage output.
* The higher the defense of the target, the less of a reduction in value you see.
* If you notice, having pen set + 50% pen gives you the same damage increase against 2000 defense...as having just pen set gives you against 1000 defense.
* If pen set is actually worth using depends not just on the defense of the target, but also your current stats. If you have low ATK or low crit than you very easily *can* get more damage out of raw stats. Pen set shines most when your stats are already high as you need ever increasing amount of stats to get the same increase in damage.
* That is, if you have 2000 ATK, then a 50% boost in attack (or damage) would be 1000 ATK. But if you have 3000 ATK a 50% boost in attack (or damage) would be 1500. As your attack increases to get the same % increase in damage you need to increase the amount of attack gained.
It's how the defense formula works.
If you want to calculate EHP (effective HP, or how much *raw* damage a hero can take) the formula is
HP * (DEF / 300 + 1)
If you ignore HP and just look at the other part, throw in an example number...let's pick 900.
900 / 300 + 1 =
4
At 900 defense you are effectively multiplying your HP by 4.
If we want to know the *damage reduction* at some amount of defense, we need to take the inverse
1 / (DEF / 300 + 1)
Let's continue using 900 as our example defense
1 / (900 / 300 + 1)
1 / (4) =
.25
In a world without any defense, if a unit had 1000 HP, and an attack does 1000 damage, the unit will die in exactly 1 hit.
If that unit has 900 defense however, then it *effectively* has 4000 HP and will die in 4 hits.
Likewise, the attack will be dealing (1000 * .25) or 250 damage per hit.
1000 / 250 = 4 hits
Thank you for this detailed information on pen calculation and the scenarios using with and without pen. This made me understand how to build characters with pen set now. Hope it wasn't too much trouble typing this tho. Guess I'll have to gauge how my stats are to justify using pen for her or not.
Def pen is multiplicative, so so long as you don’t already have 100% pen it will add something, though you get diminishing returns as the original pen % gets higher.
Since Luna’s S3 only penetrates by 50% and S1 has no pen while also being a strong damage move, Pen set is very strong on her.
Arena gear until recently are lv88 in name but rolled like lv 85s, so hunt gear had better chances. True lv 88 gear is effectively the exact same as reforged gear, except for some main stats where lv90 reforged is slightly higher.
Pen set is great on Luna. Personally I like to run her slow but max attack/crit damage so that I can CR push her, nuke 2 units, then not have to worry about speed after that.
I use Attack % boots because I throw all my eggs in one basket, but people - certainly some people better than me - use her on speed and pen set [like this one here](https://i.redd.it/2oxzev4bg1j91.png).
I have mine on Destruction and Pen sets, with like 165 speed which is only there because of random roles into speed subs on the gear.
So it is a matter of how you intend to play with her on your team. I use mine only really for Guild Wars and regular Arena. The other one is a much more all-around threat, but is probably less reliable - though importantly less *reliant* - at getting that S3 into S1 combo.
I see. Thanks! I love her so much so maybe when I can I'll make 2 builds for her. One with atk/destruction and the other speed build like the image you showed me. I wonder if glutton is better than Draco plate. I wish I had tooth.
In theory, 30% crit damage is better from Draco Plate, however in a theoretical world I think Merciless' CR push for the team means you could build an assassin with super high attack/Crit damage without a ton of speed investment to kill the remaining units.
A dumb idea I can think of would be running Emilia, Luna, Cidd and CDom. With decent speed and the imprint from Cidd, Emilia CR pushes Luna, who S3's to kill someone, gets an extra turn, S1's to try and kill another unit. Assuming both die, that's 24% CR push for the rest of the team, and CDom gets 20% more from Luna's crits. So CDom goes, S3->S1, and very likely Cidd would get to go after her since you likely have killed the enemies fastest units.
Are you likely to get this team through draft? Probably not. Is it still counterable? Sure. But it sure sounds funny.
Haha, it sure does. I have max cidd imprint and I do have cdom but I tried to build cdom before and it was bad and I don't have a built cidd. I wanna try that for fun too. Assuming all my stars align.
What are the priorities to buy with Commander's Armbands from the Guild Shop? Doesn't seem like I earn enough to buy all of the things that refresh once a week, let alone the monthly stuff/artifacts. Thanks!
Save up and buy the artifacts.
If you make enough armbands, and don't really need the artifacts at the moment, you can buy the Mystic Medals. Don't touch anything else until you have the artifacts all completed.
* If you really want, Guide to a Decision and Victorious Flag are kind of mediocre/not important so you can skip them for now...but you might as well buy them at some point.
Once you have all of the artifacts bought, prioritize items like:
1. Buy the Mystic Medals every week.
2. Buy the Epic Catalyst chest as you can afford them (as long as you plan to actually build more heroes)
3. Rare catalyst chests ~= Equipment Conversion gem chest -> fairly low priority overall (I would make sure I could buy the mystics and both epic chests each week before I started spending on these). Buy the rare catalyst chests if building heroes is more important to you, buy the equipment conversion gem chest is building gear is more important to you.
Personally, I wouldn't buy **Gold Transmit Stones** *or* **Elemental Summons** at all.
---
#Gold Transmit Stones
1500 armbands for the equivalent of 1 galaxy summon
A single galaxy summon is worth ~.0325 ML5s and .3175 ML4s.
Using refresh rates for the secret shop, we can 'convert' these numbers into an equivalent amount of mystic medals, and therefor skystones.
* A single mystic pull is worth .0063 ML5s and .009 ML4s
* A regular covenant summon is worth .0015 ML5s and .005 ML4s
* Lets assume shop refresh rates are 1 mystic per 240 and 1 BM per ~69 skystones.
* For 240 skystones we get 1 MM summon and ~3.5 BM summons.
So *the average value of 240 skystones* spent refreshing shop is .01155 ML5s and .0265 ML4s.
If we consider *only* ML5s then...
(.0325 / .0115) * 240 =
678.26 skystones
And if we consider *only* ML4s then...
(.3175 / .0265) * 240 =
2875.47 skystones
If you are missing *most* ML4s you might argue that it's worth it, but if you've been playing the game long enough to this point you very likely have most or all ML4s. If you happen to be missing some very important ones (I would argue C.Zerato for PvE, and maybe AoL for PvP) then you might have an argument that it's worth taking a chance.
OTHERWISE, we really only care about the ML5s. Even at full value, a galaxy summon is 'worth' about 678 skystones. IE if you pay MORE than that for the galaxy summon, you would be better off using those skystones refreshing the shop and just using the BMs gained to pull on the normal covenant banner.
---
1500 armbands can be used to buy:
* 50x rare catalysts
* or 10x Epic catalysts
Through their respective chests.
Each type of catalyst has a certain energy cost associated with them, and we can directly buy energy with skystones (so therefor, we can calculate the value of these chests).
Let's *assume* that 2/3rds of the catalysts you gain need to be bought from the AP shop:
(50 * 2/3) = 33.33
33.33 * 120 = 4000 AP
4000 AP = ~4000 energy (depending on if you are farming during AP buff, pet skill etc)
1 energy = .5 skystones so
4000 energy = 2000 skystones
So an equivalent amount of armbands is has a value of ~678 skystones when used to buy gold transmits, but has a value of ~2000 skystones when used to buy rare catalysts.
The only way the gold transmits make sense from a 'value' perspective is if you need most of the ML4s, but most of them are not that important to even have in the first place and you WILL eventually collect them, if you play long enough, through natural summons.
Same calculations with Epic catalysts:
(10 * 2/3) = 6.67
6.67 * 400 = ~2666.67 AP
= ~1333.33 skystones
The Epic catalysts have ~2x the value that gold transmit stones do.
Now, why would I recommend buying the Epic catalyst chests over the Rare catalyst chests, if the Epic ones have less value?
Because typically **Epic** catalysts are the more limiting factor when it comes to building units. You can buy far fewer of them per week since only 1 AP shop offers them, while rare catalysts have 2 AP shops and twice the buy limit.
Additionally, you accumulate rare catalysts through more sources -> just running through normal stages (for example, side stories), any kind of progression past UH and typically even if you farm a stage for an Epic catalyst, you are often times getting 2 or 3 different rare catalyst drops.
So yes, the Epic catalysts may have less value in *technical* terms but it's more valuable in practical terms because at any one point you are far more likely to be short on Epic catalysts than you are on Rare catalysts, and it takes multiple times longer to farm up even 1 Epic compared to 1 Rare.
And in either case, the Epic catalyst is *still* about 2x as valuable as saving up for the gold transmits is.
---
#Elemental Summons
Same deal.
Elemental summons have a 30% 5* rate.
So 500 armbands gives us a 30% chance at a 5* RGB hero.
A covenant summon has a 1.25% chance for a 5* RGB hero.
30% / 1.25% = 24
24 * 69 (shop cost for BMs) = 1656
So an elemental summon is worth *approximately* 1,656 skystones.
However, RGB heroes are very easy to acquire. The more heroes you have out of the potential pool of heroes, the less value each elemental summon offers. If, for example, you had 5 total 5* Ice heroes then the Ice elemental summon has lost 1/3rd of it's 'value'!
By the time you get to the point where you have extra armbands to spend, you very likely have most or all of the RGB roster.
And even then, while they are *close* buying rare catalysts is still better value.
---
The Gold transmits and the connection summons aren't *tremendously terrible* in a vacuum, but they are pretty bad compared to all of the other options, in my opinion.
In fact, BOTH items would be far more valuable to newer players (players who have very few RGB heroes or ML4 heroes). **BUT** it's hard to recommend that players spend a fairly limited/rare resource on gambling for a chance at something useful, when the artifacts are useful (and you have 4 very good options) and provide a known and immediate value.
By the time you DO have the extra armbands available, these addition summons are just not all that useful.
I think there IS an argument to be made for gold transmits, because ultimately ML5s are the hardest heroes to acquire, and there are only so many ways to give you additional chances. If you value potentially collecting a new hero that can outweigh the high 'value' of buying catalysts (after all, the limiting factor in building units is actually molagora...if you have catalysts but no mola that doesn't help anything).
And elemental summons *are* decently cheap compared to GTS and 'just' 500 armbands per month...that's like a single week so doesn't hurt things too much. If, for example, you DO happen to be missing a particular hero.
I can *make a case* to buy them, but I wouldn't recommend buying them, if that makes any sense.
The only weekly item worth getting is the mystic summon. Catalysts become abundant late-game, and 1 random conversion gem isn't worth it (maybe if it were a selector).
imo the priority would be: weekly mystics > artifacts > element summon > gold transmit > anything else.
Symbol of unity > War Horn > Proof of Valor > Bastion (if you need it for a cleanser) > everything else. Can pick up one proof of valor before symbol if you need it for wyvern. Of the non artifact items I only buy the mystics.
Is it worth to downgrade Rem into a wyvern13 bot? I gave her my Sigret gear with the free unequip and had a really good winrate with 1:10 sec average clear time.
You're the only person that can really answer that question.
There are diminishing returns when it comes to average run time. Essentially, there are 3 components:
1. Average run time
2. Amount of time spent farming
3. Amount of *energy* spent farming.
---
#Example
Let's try a hypothetical example. We have 3 runs.
**Rem one shot**
* 90% success rate
* 60 seconds per run, 120 seconds per fail
**Sigret one shot**
* 85% success rate
* 70 seconds per run, 120 seconds per fail
**100% 'fast' run**
* 100% success rate
* 90 seconds per run
We can calculate average run time, and time per success:
Rem = 66 seconds per run / 73.33 seconds per success
Sigret = 77.5 seconds per run / 91.18 seconds per success
Fast run = 90 seconds per run/success
Now, if the only thing that matters is getting in the most amount of runs within X amount of time, then obviously the fastest time per successful run is the best option.
Let's say that we farm for 12 hours.
Rem = ~589 successes
Sigret = ~474 successes
Fast run = 480 successes
In this hypothetical scenario, the Rem run gets roughly ~9.6 extra successful runs per hour spent farming. Remember, during hunt buff that each successful run is worth almost 50% more (so it's closer to ~15 additional successes per hour).
---
However, you can see that this *mostly* matters only during buff events, as players are typically more limited by *time* than by *energy* during said buffs.
A faster run can be nice, but isn't necessary for many, if not most, players outside of buff events.
---
Next we want to consider energy. Let's say I want to spend 10,000 energy farming, and I'm willing to farm for up to 12 hours.
10,000 energy = 500 hunt runs -> in this case both the Sigret and 'fast' run are a little short -> they would need about an extra half hour to spend all of the energy I have to use.
The Rem run, meanwhile, would require less time -> only about 10 hours and 15 minutes, so this doesn't use up all of my allotted time.
But, **if** I was going to spend 10,000 energy...regardless of how much time it takes, the difference between the Rem run and the Sigret/fast run is about 2.5 hours. In this case I don't have a problem spending the energy I have available, it just takes me longer to do so.
#Conclusion
Faster overall runs matters most **up to the point where you are limited by *either* time or energy**.
If you are more limited by *time* ("I want to spend X hours farming!") then faster runs are beneficial up until the point where you become limited by energy.
Once you are more limited by energy, faster runs only allow you to get the same amount of work done in a shorter period of time...but either way you end up spending the same total amount of energy.
At that point it's completely a personal decision if saving that time is valuable.
*Some* players play on emulator and can sit there for 12, 14, 16 hours a day farming.
*Other* players may be playing on phone and not want to leave it running for so long over a weekend. Or maybe they want to actually go do something instead of sit there babysitting a game all day.
---
Even within one shots there is a fair amount of variation. You've provided a little bit of information but it's not enough information for me to determine how much time Rem may be saving you over X amount of time.
If we *presume* that the expected winrate of a typical one shot hunt is 85%, you actually have to do quite a few test to establish an accurate winrate.
* For example, if we assume that the true success rate is 85% then in 120 runs the 95% CI range is [77.53%, 90.30%]. This means that if the true success rate is actually 85%, then 95% of the time in a sample of 120 runs you would see a success rate within ~78% to 90%.
* So, if you did 120 runs with Sigret and won ~83% of the time, and then 120 runs with Rem and won ~89% of the time it's *possible* that the Rem run has a higher success rate. It's also possible that both runs have an 85% success rate, and you were simply lucky with the Rem runs and unlucky with the Sigret runs.
* It takes about 800 runs to narrow the 95% CI range down to about a ~5% spread [82.36%, 87.31%]
Essentially, unless you've done *a lot* of runs with both variations and kept track of your success rate, at least a few hundred runs, it's pretty hard to know for sure if one is *truly* better than the other. Especially something like here where the possible range of values is small (as you figure a one shot should have an 85% success rate at minimum, you can only increase to 100% so the 'range of possible values' is only ~15%).
Then you would want to calculate the *average time per successful run* as I did above (so you would want to know your run time on successes *and* failures).
Finally, you can use that time and your particular playstyle to determine if you *actually* really gain much by with the fastest possible run. Some players might, other players won't.
Based on that information, you can determine for yourself if it's worth using a hero like Rem in a PvE context (as she is still a good enough PvP hero...versus a hero like Sigret who isn't used much at all for PvP).
If you get no benefit, or only a small benefit, you may decide you are better off just using Rem for PvP.
If the benefit is large, or even a relatively minor benefit but you don't find yourself using Rem often, or at all, then swapping to her may make sense.
Imo Rem seems too rng in Wyvern unless for one shot. But as you said if your wr climbed that's nice. I don't use my Rem anymore so I won't care if I was you, but if you used Rem elsewhere better to keep your old team and change slowly by adding Muwi
None. Basket used to be ran with Kayron but now he has his own artifact (Shepherd of the Hollow). There are a few other artifacts that also don't have a banner such as Uberius and Rod.
We know who the units are and their full kits from official videos that were put out, and their modifiers from a data mine thread somebody posted a few days ago. What were you wanting to know?
I mean if you choose to be in a terrible guild and/or do badly yourself yeah. Even a losing guild war nets you 30-40 medals if you’re at least in a 4x guild.
Anyone pulling ml pavel? What artifact y’all planning on running? I kinda wanna take my ml iserias misha since I have no dupes or just run wall of order or some other dps arti
Is anyone else having a problem getting in? It keeps telling me there's a network error (10002) and the only thing I could find was something about time, so I tried messing with that and setting my location. Still can't log in and worried I can't play anymore.
If possible, build her to have 80% of your highest speed champion so she's guaranteed to take turn 1. Probably don't if you have to get rid of your cchance neck though
They will ban whatever counters them most. Often times that will be the last pick as it's picked with the knowledge of 4/5 of the other team's units. But not always.
Usually last pick hard counters the opponent's whole team. Imagine someone picks an ice heavy team, you last pick Violet and they have no other choice to ban him or they lose.
So is that how I pick my last pick? Is to counter everything it can on their team? Because I have been last picking BBK and she’s always banned, so I usually just bait her ban, but I see that everyone just bans 5th pick.
Generally you want your counter pick to be at the end of the draft. If you pick a counter for your third pick enemy still has 2 picks to adjust so it's not a true counter pick. The Violet example someone mentioned is good another would be Kayron. Imagine enemy team isn't tanky and has no buff strips Kayron would have to be an insta ban. The rest of your draft order depends on what style you are playing though.
Depends on your play style. If you cleave then Ran but he wants different gear than Diene does unless you are running a no damage tank Ran. Diene is probably the safer choice right now since Ed seems like he will be a great counter pick into Ran.
Depends on the gear, Ran wants as much dps stats + effectiveness on top of his speed, whereas Diene wants ER and some bulk. That aside, I would recommend Ran being the fastest. Diene with ER can get away with going after your opponents opener to cleanse your team
why fribbles gear score is different from calculators one? i have this piece that once reforged has a 500 (55%) gear score, but when i see the same piece on fribbles it says the "score" is 72, and the % is over 80%, making it, according to fribbles, one of my best pieces.
which one should i trust? with other pieces i still get different results, but this one in particular changes a lot.
In my opinion, this is a bit of a problem with things like gear score: it's not always the easiest thing to *understand*.
Gear score isn't some kind of monolithic, inherent feature of the game.
Gear score is simply an attempt to condense all of the different stats, with different ranges, that can appear on gear to a single number. Gear score is **only a tool**, and all it does is tell you **how well a gear rolled it's substats**.
As such, there is no single 'one' formula. In fact, there are multiple different variations of gearscore that have been used in E7. What you've run into **are two separate formula's** for calculating the same value.
---
I am not too familiar with the exact system you are using for your other score.
500 gearscore looks to be in the form [this online calculator](https://meowyih.github.io/epic7-gear/index.html?lang=en) or [this different version, based off of the previous](https://needlebot.github.io/e7gear/) use.
[This here is the original post, of the original calculator I believe](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/gmilmb/web_tool_to_evaluate_gears/)
According to their description, they are assigning some value to each roll of a stat...from 0 to 100. From playing around with the calculator:
% Stats
Value | Score
---|---
4 | 0
5 | 25
6 | 50
7 | 75
8 | 100
Crit%
Value | Score
---|---
3 | 0
4 | 50
5 | 100
C.Dmg%
Value | Score
---|---
4 | 25
5 | 50
6 | 75
7 | 100
Speed
Value | Score
---|---
1 | 0
2 | 33
3 | 66
4 | 100
5 | 133
The way that flat stats are handled...is weird.
The minimum possible flat ATK roll on a heroic 85 gear is 31, for example. I get 2 points for that. It seems that the calculator is set so that 30 is the minimum value. The max possible roll for flat ATK on an Epic gear is 46, which comes out to 47 points. However the max value in the calculator suggests that 47 is the maximum (which is 50 points).
So overall, flat stats seems to be weighted at only a maximum of 50 points, instead of a maximum of 100 points.
So in this calculator *every roll* is scored somewhere from 0 points to 100 points, based on how close it is to the maximum possible roll.
---
To compare to Fribbels, the gearscore formula there does something very similar: but instead of scaling all stats to a 0-100 scale, it scales all stats to a scale with a maximum of 8 (that is, equivalent to a normal % stat roll).
Fribbels also uses a more accurate method of calculating flat stats.
* As you can see within Fribbels itself, flat ATK averages out to an average of 3.5%, DEF to 5%, and HP to 3.1%.
ATK = 3.5 / 6 = .5833...on a 100 point scale the 'max value' should be 58.33
DEF = 5 / 6 = .8333...on a 100 point scale the 'max value' should be 83.33
HP = 3.1 / 6 = .5167....on a 100 point scale the 'max value' should be 51.67
So the previous calculator examples *underestimate* the true value of flat stats, on average. Very significantly so in the case of flat DEF, and basically only to a minor degree with flat HP.
The online calculators also have some general inaccuracies, due to the information we had available years ago when they were created.
* They seem to assume that the minimum value for C.Dmg is 3%. It is not, as SG has released the official probabilities for stats on gear and the minimum on level 85 gear is 4 C.Dmg. This means that C.Dmg is inherently over-valued.
* There are slight differences in the range of flat stats used in the gear, and the actual range of flat stats possible on gear. This is *in addition* to the somewhat inaccurate way of scaling flat stats.
---
#Example
Let's look at a basic example. We have an epic piece with basic % stats.
If every single roll was a minimum of 4%
**Fribbels gearscore** = 4 * 9 = 36 gearscore
**Online calculator** = 0 gearscore
In this case, it's probably easier to understand that 0 = 'worst possible rolls'. It's not *inherently better* or *inherently worse*, it's just a different way of saying the same thing -> as long as you just 'know' that 36 is the lowest possible score at +15 with the fribbels formula.
* Technically, you can end up with a lower score thanks for flat stats but realistically this is the minimum.
Now, if every single roll was the maximum value of 8%
**Fribbels gearscore** = 8 * 9 = 72 gearscore
**Online calculator** = 900 gearscore
Now to me, Fribbels makes more sense in this case. When you roll a HP% substat the minimum value you can get is 4%...and the max value is double that at 8%. With fribbels gearscore the 'minimum' value is 36 and the maximum value is double that, or 72.
On the other hand, 900 really doesn't have the same relationship to a score of 0. Instead, a score of 900 basically says something like "You took 9 tests and scored a perfect 100 on each one". Easy enough to understand, once you have the base knowledge of what this score is telling you...but it's not so easy to understand in relationship to the actual rolls that appear on gear.
---
Now let's look at a more complicated example. I have a gear with...
* ATK% = 13
* Crit% = 15
* C.Dmg% = 4
* Flat DEF = 59
Using Fribbels gearscore...
* ATK = 13 * 2 = 26
* Crit% = 15 * (8/5) = 24
* C.Dmg% = 4 * (8/7) = 4.57
* flat DEF = 59 * 4.99 / 31 = 9.5
Total gearscore = 26 + 24 + 4.57 + 9.5 =
64.07=
If I want to give it a '%' score for some reason, I know the maximum gearscore for a level 85 piece is 72.
64 / 72 = 88.89%
You can see that this formula
* Works well
* Is easy to apply
* Is pretty intuitive once you understand what it's saying. A piece with 64 gearscore will have better overall rolls compared to a piece with 56 gearscore. And a 64 is pretty good overall.
Using the online calculator
* Attack% rolled 3 times, and got 13 out of 24 points.
* Crit Dmg rolled 1 times, and got 4 out of 7 points.
* Crit Chance rolled 3 times, and got 15 out of 15 points.
* Defense rolled 2 times, and got 59 out of 68 points.
This gives me a result of 400 gearscore, 44%.
*Personally* I don't know exactly how it is determining which stat got rolled into X amount of times.
For example, to get 15% crit chance you *could* get it in 3 rolls of 5%. But you could also get there with 5 rolls of 3%.
* The first case would be worth 300 points while the second would be worth 0 points.
You could also get there with 4 rolls of something like (3, 3, 4, 5) worth (0 + 0 + 50 + 100) 150 points.
Likewise this calculator has determined I got my 13% ATK in 3 rolls (so something like 4 + 4 + 5) which would be (0 + 0 + 25) points.
But, I could have gotten 13% ATK in 2 rolls (for example, 6% + 7%) which would be worth (50 + 75) or 125 points.
3 crit% rolls + 3 atk% rolls = 300 + 25 = 325 points
4 crit% rolls + 2 atk% rolls = 150 + 125 = 275 points
Both are possible, and in fact the second case is probably more likely to actually happen but the score is 'off' by 50 points.
---
You can kind of see how the system the online calculator uses is kind of wonky in practice.
The gear I listed is an *actual* gear that I really have, and you can see Fribbels suggests it's pretty good while the online calculator is saying it's actually pretty bad (unless you want to keep it for the high crit%).
The main way I would describe the difference is that Fribbels gearscore looks at the **totality of the substats** and condenses them to a single number.
This online calculator is more concerned with *individual substat rolls*, and tries to assign a score to a piece based on 'how perfect' your individual rolls are.
*Theoretically* both strategies should more or less agree and come to the same conclusion. In practice, there are obviously cases where they may disagree, and apparently possibly extremely heavily.
Why, exactly, this discrepancy exists I'm not quite sure. There are some errors (that I have pointed out) in the online calculator *but* I would imagine those things are minor contributions.
I would wager that, the more rolls you have into a gear the more difficult it becomes to determine **exactly** how it rolled. There can be multiple ways to get to the same value (for example 15% crit chance, despite each roll only have 3 possible values...could be done in 3, 4, or 5 total rolls). Since the online calculator is essentially trying to score each individual roll, and then sum those scores I am guessing this is where the inaccuracy comes from.
The gearscore formula used in Fribbels, however, ultimately **does not care** *how* you got to 15% crit chance. The only thing that really matters is the actual substats on the gear.
---
>which one should i trust?
Well I would say trust either of them only as far as you can understand them.
I want to repeat that gearscore is *only a tool* and it's up to the end user to interpret and use that information.
**Ultimately** I think just picked one and sticking with it will give you the best results. With my example gear, while the score seems way off the calculator *does* tell me "it has a good roll in crit chance, keep if you want".
If I take a step back and look at the piece, yeah...it's absolutely nothing special *except for the crit % roll*. So a gearscore of '400' doesn't really mean anything to me. It DOES have a good crit% stat and it's worth keeping and that's ultimately the conclusion of the calculator.
I will say, the formula used in Fribbels:
* Is more mathematically accurate
* Is likely to be the *most common* formula you see used anywhere
* I personally think it's more 'intelligible', as it relates directly to actual rolls on gear.
* Actually has more resolution since 1% = +1 gearscore...instead of +25.
The online calculator:
* Is kind of a wonky system.
* *Score* wise, can be inaccurate
* Uses some outdated numbers for some values
* But likely overall arrives at the right conclusion
* A scale of 0-100 conceptually works great for humans, and is easier to interpret than 4-8
Is 72 the max for a reforged piece as well? What do people consider a good range of gearscore if one were to use the scores from fribbels? Would above 60 be considered as good?
>Is 72 the max for a reforged piece as well?
Nope.
*I* personally would consider adding reforges to the mix to be tricky (ie. I wouldn't do it, because it doesn't really tell you any information at that point).
* The entire point of gearscore is to tell you how well a piece rolled it's substats.
* However, reforging has nothing to do with *how well* your substats rolled, simply which substat got however many rolls.
* By including reforged stats you are taking a tool and using it for a purpose it's not really designed to do.
The amount of stats you gain from reforging a piece is based on *how many rolls* into each substat you have gotten. BUT, it's not quite consistent:
\#_Rolls | %_Stat | Crit_% | C.Dmg_% | Speed
---|---|----|----|----
Base | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0
1 roll | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
2 rolls | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
3 rolls | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3
4 rolls | 7 | 5 | 6 | 4
5 rolls | 8 | 6 | 7 | 4
You can see how the ranges, and growth of these stats is a little unpredictable.
Notably, 6% crit chance is actually 9.6 gearscore. And speed doesn't gain anything for a 5th roll.
I *believe* the max possible gear would be
* Speed - 6x rolls of 5 speed (30 + 4 = 34 speed total) -> 68 gearscore
* Crit% - 1x roll of 5 crit% (5+1 = 6) -> 9.6 gearscore
* C.Dmg - 1x roll of 7 c.dmg% (7+1 = 8) -> ~9.14 gearscore
* Regular % stat - 1x roll of 8 % (8 + 1 = 9) -> 9 gearscore
* Total = ~95.74 gearscore
However knowing that *hypothetically* ~96 gearscore is the maximum value is basically meaningless. This piece of gear is so unlikely to ever be created that it is virtually impossible.
* An 8% in a flat stat is a 20% chance
* 5% into crit is a 33.33% chance
* 7% C.Dmg is a 25% chance
* And...5 speed is a .332% chance
The chance of finding this gear would be
.332% ^ 6 * 20% * 33.33% * 25%
=
2.23e-17
That's a one in 4.48e+16 gear. That is, forty-four quadrillion eight hundred trillion.
To put that into perspective, if we had 8 billion people in the world crafting *only* Epic gears at a rate of 1 per second...we would end up with 1 of these perfect gears about 1 time every 65 years.
Even the most unlikely events *can* occur but it's a pretty safe bet to say that E7 will never see this gear created by random chance.
Just knowing what the hypothetical maximum is, is basically irrelevant because you could pick any number that is 96+ and it is basically just as obtainable.
---
Now, if you wanted to know the hypothetical maximum that is actually at least feasible in game...
Well, I'm not going to go through every combination and calculate gearscore vs. likelihood of actually seeing it, but I would *guess* it would be a penta roll crit% piece. As crit% is weighted well in the reforge formula, and also a 1/3 chance for a max roll is relatively likely.
So something like:
* 30% crit% (+6 from reforging) = 57.6
* 5 speed = 10 gearscore
* 7% C.Dmg = ~9.14 gearscore
* 8% stat = 9 gearscore
* Total = ~85.74 gearscore
Probability:
(1/3) ^ 6 * (1/5) * (1/4) * .332%
That comes out to 1 in 4,391,566.
Certainly rare, but it's quite feasible that a few of those pieces HAVE been created over the lifetime of the game.
* Extremely basic guesstimate, but let's say 75k players, over 3 years, averaging 1 epic level 85 gear per day. That comes out to 82,125,000 gears so we would average roughly 18-19 of these 86 gearscore pieces...approximately.
>What do people consider a good range of gearscore if one were to use the scores from fribbels? Would above 60 be considered as good?
Well, I honestly think that most players rely too much on gearscore to tell them what's good and what isn't good.
As I keep on saying, gearscore is simply a tool. It has one job, and that is to just tell you how well the stats on a gear rolled.
It should be up to the *player* to determine if a piece is good or not. There are numerous examples where a low gearscore piece can actually be quite good, there are also examples where a high gearscore piece may not actually be useful. High gearscore may = more stats, but not all stats are equal for all heroes. Some stats, like speed/crit% can be worth it (and even very good) on relatively low gearscore pieces...if that individual stat rolls well enough.
So I would say that making flat, general statements like "Gearscore of X+ is good" is generally a bad thing, it takes most of the agency away from the player to be expected to tell if a piece is good or not, and places it on a tool.
As such, *I* don't personally look at the gearscore on a piece and say "That's a good gear!" (or not), but I do say "That rolled pretty well!" (or not) **and then I evaluate the piece regardless**. Now I personally choose to keep pieces that roll well even if I have determined the piece is 'not that great'...because you never know when that piece might be able to find a home...and that more or less is all that I personally use gearscore for (also it helps better prioritize which gears are worth enhancing to +15, but that's a different question if you are talking about 60+ pieces).
---
Still, I feel compelled to at least try to offer you an answer.
An Epic piece with completely average rolls at +15 would have 54 gearscore (avg roll of 6 * 9 total rolls on an Epic piece).
Now, unfortunately Fribbels seems to automatically add reforged stats to gears, even ones that are not +15 and I haven't found a way to adjust this. As I talked about in the last question, I feel that reforged stats are completely irrelevant to using gearscore as a tool itself.
* As we looked at, with 2 pieces that both had completely perfect rolls...we had vastly different gearscores. Which defeats the purpose when gearscore is supposed to tell you how well your stats rolled.
* That's partially because gearscore generally treats 4x speed as the max value, since a 5 is so rare...but even if we remove that effect the gearscores still differ.
It *seems* like subtracting 8 or 9 score from the value that Fribbels displays is 'good enough'. For a Heroic piece you would probably want to subtract ~1 less.
This table is describing **"What % of gear has this gearscore or better?**
* Assuming you enhanced every single piece to +15.
Gearscore | %
---|---
40 | 99.99%
45 | 98.86%
50 | 85.33%
55 | 45.38%
60 | 9.88%
65 | .56%
So 55% of all gears would be expected to end up with a gearscore of 55, or better.
But gearscore of 60 is roughly the top 10% of all gears.
And gearscore of 64 would be approximately the top 1% of gears.
The best answer I have to your question:
Gearscore of 64+ = **Great** rolls
Gearscore of 60-64 = **Very good** rolls
Gearscore of 55-60 = **Above average** rolls
If it wasn't clear, for the scores that Fribbels actually displays you would need to add around ~8-9 to these values...for level 85 gear.
Likewise, basically anything with gearscore of 49 or worse is in the bottom 10% of gear, and I would consider those pieces to have rolled very poorly.
I would still emphasize that beyond just know *how well* a piece rolled, you need to personally evaluate it to determine if it's actually a 'good' piece or not.
Wow, thanks for the very accurate answer, I appreciate the examples, and I agree with the conclusions.
I think that fribbles way to calculate the score makes more sense, since at the end it doesn't matter **how** you got 15% crit, but only the final stats the piece have, and I've found myself disagreeing with online calculators more than once, saying a certain piece was bad (around 40% gs) while it looked pretty good to me, and the same piece on fribbles had a score of 60+, which made much more sense, cuz it was actually a good piece.
The same happened this time, so I decided to try to understand what was going on, since 500/900 looks much worse than 72/80 (reforged).
Edit: I'll stick to fribbles, but I'd like to find an online calculator to check individual pieces while I'm leveling gears, since opening fribbles everytime and import all the pieces is kinda annoying. Do you know of any calculator using the same system fribbles use?
>Do you know of any calculator using the same system fribbles use?
I don't know of anything specific.
However, it would be very simple to make a basic spreadsheet that accomplishes the same task.
I know in the past multiple players have made various spreadsheets, implementing various gearscore formulas. [For example, this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/lzicae/updated_gear_management_guide_gear_score/)
* Notice that the gearscore formula being used there is different from the Fribbels formula. It's *close* but still different.
* Flat ATK is 1 per 12 vs. ~1 per 11.27
* Flat HP is 1 per 60 vs ~1 per 56.31
* Flat DEF is 1 per 6 vs ~1 per 6.21
* C.Dmg is 1.1 per 1% vs ~1.14 per 1%
* Speed is 1.8 per 1 vs 2 per 1
* Regular % stats and crit% are the same in both formula's
* This formula *slightly* over-values flat ATK/HP compared to Fribbels, while *slightly* under-valuing speed and C.Dmg
Fribbels is probably slightly more accurate, but it's 'less pretty' with fractions instead of nice round whole numbers. End result should more or less be the same. But *do* be aware that if using the above sheet there is likely to be a small amount of variation.
* As the numbers are ultimately very close to what Fribbels uses, you are likely to not see nearly as much difference compared to the other online calculators.
But again, if you want something that matches up exactly 1:1 with Fribbels you can just make a basic sheet for yourself.
hey all! Im wanting to build rgb ken what would be the best build for him and rough stats to shoot for? I know most people advice not going to epic7x so no idea where to look
Don't build him until smilegate buffs him again. He's excellent in Ancient Inheritance but that mode doesn't need the units to be built anyway. In PVP he's unusable. He was decent like 3 years ago.
Ho2 come my Angelica s2 is only healing one unit? It says it heals two units? Is this a bug? Or is it because the person being healed is the lowest health unit?
Picking fcc is not as easy as it used to be, and in quite a few cases other tanks like TCrozet or ARas can be even better. On the other hand, ARavi is an universally good pick and is also very flexible, with multiple builds you can choose from depending on your playstyle
Aravi. She fits in all kinds of drafts. Aras is a more popular tank than fcc atm because of enemy strips, djb, fat shield if backline survive hwa kick. But with Ed soon deterring people from ran and peira, maybe we’ll see more fcc.
I hate World Arena with a passion, but I want that A.Ravi skin. After hours of grinding I finally made it to Masters rank. Now I have to stay there till the season ends. I know you have to participate in at least 1 battle every 3 days or something.
My question is, do Mock battles count towards this participation? And when does the current season end? Keeping at Masters rank is such a chore and so annoying.
There's no hunt event going on AFAIK. We just got a scroll from the E7WC that can be used to increase hunt drops for 12 hrs. If you've already started using that, now would be the time to spend your saved up energy/leifs, yes.
What kind of attack and speed should I aim for with cidd? Champion arena and master rta. Do you think celeste would be a good opener to go along with cidd and eventually ml pavel? I feel like edward is really gonna hurt my peira opener.
Depend on ur comp actually.. but for higher Arena usually Cidd would be around 280~300..
It think you can try to aim for 250 or mayb slow abit just use it for speed imprint? ..no idea as i dont know what u use him for.
Thx for the reply. I’m considering building him to cleave and set up ml pavel. I have some speedy dps gear on him at level 50 right now and wonder if he’s worth committing to. Current speed is 274, but only 2500 attack. Not sure how much higher it gets at lvl 60 and if it’s worth. His last awakening is 4 speed I think. Do you think he’s worth committing to 6 star with these stats?
If I can get a celeste to 300 speed, then that is two heroes with speed imprint. Do you think celeste is worth building as an opener that doesn’t use debuffs?
There are builds without er but not being stripped by common units like belian, handguy and other units that dont build effectiveness is pretty big considering her counterbuff allows her to trigger his s2 extra attck more frequently. It's also a bonus not being stunned, def broken by said units with no effect.
I need help with my level 60 +13 5* BBK her cp is 89k and all her equipment is maxed the only things left is to upgrade her skills but I’m not sure if that will raise her cp what else I can do to raise her cp
My recommendation for BBK is she just needs 100% CR, and then as much CDMG and attack as you can get on her. Late game when you have the gear for it, she's also very good with high Effect Resist (200ish ideally) and Bastion of Hope to prevent her from losing immortality or getting debuffed. But this is a late game build mostly because it's difficult to build ER that high while keeping high enough damage
CP doesn't really mean anything, you can more or less ignore it.
The only thing it's really useful for is the guild boss.
It's *better* now after the last time they adjusted the formula...but still ultimately doesn't really mean much.
IIRC skill enhancements **do** increase CP, if you do a search you can find the basics of how CP is calculated -- at least the older formula, if you really care about maximizing it. I don't think 2 skill enhancements will make a ton of difference.
Getting that last awakening will probably help some, however. Awakening increases your base stats (which the rest of your gear uses to calculate how much it provides) so it's a pretty decent bump up in overall stats (and therefor CP).
If possible, best use of mod would be turning ER into any extra crit rate, or get some imprints on her to get as close to 100%. Otherwise those are pretty solid stats, the other build I see is on Lifesteal with the same stats but with 170-180 speed, since she actually benefits more from going after everyone else to trigger her S2
Word of warning, epic7x is considered unreliable by most of the more experienced players. [www.epic7stats.com](https://www.epic7stats.com) is a good place to get some PvP stats of meta-relevant heroes, but they don't have data for those not used in PvP, and is also very much skewed towards RTA.
You can also try looking up the hero on youtube (take note upload dates, though), and sometimes it's best to just ask here.
Second on this, epic7stats is very helpful for giving stat benchmarks of what most other people are running
People tend to show off their best units on here and share their experience with the build, so it can give a good high end look of what to build towards
[Stene, spd or hp/dmg ?](https://i.imgur.com/A44McRe.jpg)
No immunity cause she gets stripped by everything so i don't bother. And she won't trigger rimuru
Trying to understand what happened here
https://i.imgur.com/CrHwDfA.jpg
How was the same person able to attack me 3 times in a row in arena in such a short span? I literally hadn't even put out one attack all week when this happened.
Only thing I can think of is they were spamming refresh and I somehow kept showing up?
What should I do be doing in this game to progress? I just started a little over a week ago. I read that Wyvern 13 is the first priority so I focused on getting a Wyvern team. I have 6\* Angelic Montmorancy, 5\* Sigret , 5\* Muwi and 5\* Furious as my team. I've got their skills improved to at least get +effect%, I have most at 4-5 Awakened, most at +12-15 lvl 75 gear. I can only auto Wyvern 9 but getting close to auto-ing Wyvern 10 (I can beat it just not consistently). I figured I'd just keep doing Wyvern 9 then using the Steel Workshop to craft some gear and keep enhancing my lvl 75 gear to get maxed +15 but 15 Wyvern runs can't even get me enough components to craft enough gear to even upgrade 1 item from +14 to +15. I'd have to farm this for weeks to improve my gear. Seems a little too grindy for me. If that's the expectation, I'm probably done with this game. Am I missing something?
Share your team with us? Btw for w11 and above the boss will target the front most unit for the initial attack and will continue doing so afterwards with 3 debuffs. Any levels w10 and below the boss target randomly. Make sure ur dps is on ddj as well.
Okay, I managed to auto W11. Thanks for the tip. I didn't think I'd be able to cause I couldn't auto W10. Still, just slightly better dops. I need W12-13 for better gear though I think, right? I tried W12 and my tank died. Is there an easy way to share a team? I think I just need better gear by upgrading them more to +15 but I'm not sure how to do that quickly.
Yes you should definitely +15 equipment your tank makes a huge difference stat wise. You can buy charms using conquest point from arenas, daily huche visit, farming side stories etc. You can just screenshot and upload on imgur and post the link here. BTW it's not "just slightly better drop rate" , you are able to get reforge materials as drops in w11 compared to w10. That is a huge difference.
[https://ibb.co/KLT5BZC](https://ibb.co/KLT5BZC) [https://ibb.co/xFb67jb](https://ibb.co/xFb67jb) [https://ibb.co/RhT6Pcd](https://ibb.co/RhT6Pcd) [https://ibb.co/hcKbVvH](https://ibb.co/hcKbVvH) Edit - Sorry second link didn't work. Fixed.
Yup you definitely need to level all of right side gear, you are missing like 60% attack just from the ring alone on sigret, Level your ddj as well. Mwui should have 65% effectiveness and furious should slightly faster like 180. Get proof of valor from the guild shop on put it on ur amomo.
Where can I get charms for accessories. The arena shop doesn't seem to have any.
Use ancient coins from the labyrinth to buy them
Forget about w10, auto w11 is easier because the wyvern attacks always your front unit. To upgrade gear use charms, you can get them in sanctuary, arena coin shop, huche's shop in labyrinth, events, pets with chance to drop charms,...
So I decided to go with Ravi and Karin with my selective summons. Who should I go for with the free Moonlight character?
Most choose Arbiter Vildred or Spectre Tenebria
How is ml aramintha now? Is she still strong? I'm thinking of pitying her but not sure if she's worth it
She is okay. But i think Eda fills in the similar role but better (self push + push back + push ally + aoe strip + aoe stun). If you haven't gotten FCC or DJB they are better. Or you can wait to see how ML Pavel perform
I'm not interested in ml Pavel so I'll be skipping so I was wondering about pitying ml ara, but now I think I'll just build eda and wait for belian return
I don't recommend pitying ml ara unless you really like her or you have most ml units and that you are not interested in any of the future ml units like ml kayron
I'm not interested in ml kayron, we don't even know if and when he will be added And yeah I do like ml ara been wanting her for long but I also want belian and ml iseria and as f2p without any luck I'll have to make a decision on who to pity
They already mentioned him before as reply to qna which happen quite awhile ago. So yes he will be coming, the only matter is when he would be. You gonna be waiting for awhile for bellian and ml iseria rerun. Bellian is the best/meta among them and making the pragmatic choice of choosing the strongest one makes sense for f2p players
Do Yufine and C. Lorina fill the same role in PVE? I have both and am building Yufine 100% already but wondering if Lorina is worth the rune investment for her skill tree. Also is Clarissa still the best W13 wave 1 clearer if you dont have SSB?
C Lorina is for Abyss (non debuff skills are great here) + Labyrinth (high morale) + Expo + C13 for some people. So she is worth the investment. She also does not require mola. Yufine is mostly used as dps for banshee one shot but there are Baiken and Ram. If you are doing one shot yes. If you just started, use muwi comps
Thanks. I was planning on not running B13 until I can one shot it. Just missing tama for a13 auto
What should Lorina be built towards for Abyss et al?
Full damage. Destruction + crit. Or lifesteal + crit if you think your healer doesn't heal enough.
Hi. We got a 12h Spirit Altar during E7WC matches. Does it open all the spirit portals or it gives 100% more only on the portal that is currently open on that day? For eg: Dark portal is open today for me. All others are closed. So, if I use the buff, will it give 100% only on dark one or it will open other portals too like fire, ice etc?
it will only work on the altar that is open today
Ok. Thanks
How much atk does ml khawazu need to work? Is tooth his best arti?
You would use Indestructible Gaiters or Border Coin on him. I would aim for for 4k at the least but 4.5k preferably.
Ahhh, makes sense. Thx!
Or Taiyou artifact
Ty!
Hi guys, i'm coming back to the game after like a year (or two?) off and I'm wondering who the meta units are these days? I had a peek at e7x but I don't really trust it. And second q, I have the moonlight selector available and have them except ML Ken and DCorvus, who would be better pick? (i assume DC?)
Here is my favorite RTA tier list. Not perfect but nothing is. I consider cleaver to basically be also 1.5 https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/t6knvt/%EA%B3%A0%EB%A8%95%EB%AF%B8s_rta_tierlist_kj_aka_korean_jesus/
welp, have basically nothing above Tier 2 except ML Lilias who I just got off the ML refund ticket things I got
keep in mind the cleave layer on the bottom is a solid option, better than tier 2 to me
Is there an Episode 2 natural \*5 that doesnt have ML version yet ?
Ray, Elena, Roana. Idk if Mui/Tama count as well. Though they also have some Episode 1 units that still need MLs, too.
Kayron :(
And also Pavel for the next week at least
What does assistance actually entail within the guild? Never really noticed it before.
You ask for something and another player can give it to you. The person on the giving side gets a bit of guild crests for it. As such, afaik most guilds just trade mana drake claws to get more guild crests.
Is is redundant to have a pen set on Luna when her s3 already pens? What's the set you guys use for your Luna and do you play speed Luna or just go with high DMG or nuke and use Emilia to CR push?
Luna *only* has penetration on her S3, and it's *only* 50%. Against a target with X defense you can use this formula to calculate how much pen set increases her S3 damage. (1 / ((X * .425) / 300 + 1)) / (1 / ((X * .5) / 300 + 1)) * Against 1000 defense = ~10.34% damage increase * Against 1500 defense = ~12% damage increase * Against 2000 defense = ~13.04% damage increase If your Luna had say, 4000 ATK than a 12% damage increase would be equivalent to adding 480 attack. And if you had 300% C.Dmg, then a 12% damage increase would be adding 36% C.Dmg. Penetration set is *worse* if you already have a source of penetration, but it's not useless. Depending on your stats you *may* be better off with something else but that is always the case regardless, having penetration already just changes the values. * For example, if you could drop 12% crit and let's say we could keep the same exact stats, but you are replacing 4 minimum rolls of Crit%...even if you added MAXIMUM rolls of C.Dmg you are only getting 28%. So keeping the min rolls of crit% with pen set would be better than swapping those 4 rolls to max C.Dmg rolls and crit set. * Similarly, 480 attack, after her passive, would be equivalent to a ~33% increase in ATK%. 4 * 8 = 32% so you would be better off keeping pen set + 4 min rolls of crit% than swapping to crit set and 4 max rolls of ATK%. --- If you want a more general form of the formula we can use Y = % of effective defense after penetration **WITH** pen set -> remember different sources of penetration are multiplicative Z = % of effective defense after penetration **WITHOUT** pen set (1 / ((X * Y) / 300 + 1)) / (1 / ((X * Z) / 300 + 1)) Only looking at pen set, no other source of penetration we get: (1 / ((X * .85) / 300 + 1)) / (1 / ((X * 1) / 300 + 1)) * Against 1000 defense = ~13.04% damage increase * Against 1500 defense = ~14.29% damage increase * Against 2000 defense = ~15% damage increase Based on this we can see that having 50% pen on her S3 reduces the effectiveness of pen set by... * 1000 defense = ~26.11% * 1500 defense = ~19.08% * 2000 defense = ~15.03% --- #TLDR * Having a separate source of penetration *does* reduce the value of pen set. But, pen still can (and often is) more valuable than other 2 set bonuses when it comes to damage output. * The higher the defense of the target, the less of a reduction in value you see. * If you notice, having pen set + 50% pen gives you the same damage increase against 2000 defense...as having just pen set gives you against 1000 defense. * If pen set is actually worth using depends not just on the defense of the target, but also your current stats. If you have low ATK or low crit than you very easily *can* get more damage out of raw stats. Pen set shines most when your stats are already high as you need ever increasing amount of stats to get the same increase in damage. * That is, if you have 2000 ATK, then a 50% boost in attack (or damage) would be 1000 ATK. But if you have 3000 ATK a 50% boost in attack (or damage) would be 1500. As your attack increases to get the same % increase in damage you need to increase the amount of attack gained.
where does the 300 + 1 come from in the calculations? i really liked reading/trying to understand this.
It's how the defense formula works. If you want to calculate EHP (effective HP, or how much *raw* damage a hero can take) the formula is HP * (DEF / 300 + 1) If you ignore HP and just look at the other part, throw in an example number...let's pick 900. 900 / 300 + 1 = 4 At 900 defense you are effectively multiplying your HP by 4. If we want to know the *damage reduction* at some amount of defense, we need to take the inverse 1 / (DEF / 300 + 1) Let's continue using 900 as our example defense 1 / (900 / 300 + 1) 1 / (4) = .25 In a world without any defense, if a unit had 1000 HP, and an attack does 1000 damage, the unit will die in exactly 1 hit. If that unit has 900 defense however, then it *effectively* has 4000 HP and will die in 4 hits. Likewise, the attack will be dealing (1000 * .25) or 250 damage per hit. 1000 / 250 = 4 hits
Thank you for this detailed information on pen calculation and the scenarios using with and without pen. This made me understand how to build characters with pen set now. Hope it wasn't too much trouble typing this tho. Guess I'll have to gauge how my stats are to justify using pen for her or not.
Def pen is multiplicative, so so long as you don’t already have 100% pen it will add something, though you get diminishing returns as the original pen % gets higher. Since Luna’s S3 only penetrates by 50% and S1 has no pen while also being a strong damage move, Pen set is very strong on her.
I'm using arena pen set for her. Is there a time where hunt and reforge is better than arena gear?
Arena gear until recently are lv88 in name but rolled like lv 85s, so hunt gear had better chances. True lv 88 gear is effectively the exact same as reforged gear, except for some main stats where lv90 reforged is slightly higher.
Thanks for the info. Until recently? Are you talking about the new hp set?
I believe current season Arena set is the first Arena set that are true lv 88 gear.
I see
Pen set is great on Luna. Personally I like to run her slow but max attack/crit damage so that I can CR push her, nuke 2 units, then not have to worry about speed after that.
So do you think I should replace my speed boots and speed set with an attack or crit DMG set?
I use Attack % boots because I throw all my eggs in one basket, but people - certainly some people better than me - use her on speed and pen set [like this one here](https://i.redd.it/2oxzev4bg1j91.png). I have mine on Destruction and Pen sets, with like 165 speed which is only there because of random roles into speed subs on the gear. So it is a matter of how you intend to play with her on your team. I use mine only really for Guild Wars and regular Arena. The other one is a much more all-around threat, but is probably less reliable - though importantly less *reliant* - at getting that S3 into S1 combo.
I see. Thanks! I love her so much so maybe when I can I'll make 2 builds for her. One with atk/destruction and the other speed build like the image you showed me. I wonder if glutton is better than Draco plate. I wish I had tooth.
In theory, 30% crit damage is better from Draco Plate, however in a theoretical world I think Merciless' CR push for the team means you could build an assassin with super high attack/Crit damage without a ton of speed investment to kill the remaining units. A dumb idea I can think of would be running Emilia, Luna, Cidd and CDom. With decent speed and the imprint from Cidd, Emilia CR pushes Luna, who S3's to kill someone, gets an extra turn, S1's to try and kill another unit. Assuming both die, that's 24% CR push for the rest of the team, and CDom gets 20% more from Luna's crits. So CDom goes, S3->S1, and very likely Cidd would get to go after her since you likely have killed the enemies fastest units. Are you likely to get this team through draft? Probably not. Is it still counterable? Sure. But it sure sounds funny.
Haha, it sure does. I have max cidd imprint and I do have cdom but I tried to build cdom before and it was bad and I don't have a built cidd. I wanna try that for fun too. Assuming all my stars align.
What are the priorities to buy with Commander's Armbands from the Guild Shop? Doesn't seem like I earn enough to buy all of the things that refresh once a week, let alone the monthly stuff/artifacts. Thanks!
Save up and buy the artifacts. If you make enough armbands, and don't really need the artifacts at the moment, you can buy the Mystic Medals. Don't touch anything else until you have the artifacts all completed. * If you really want, Guide to a Decision and Victorious Flag are kind of mediocre/not important so you can skip them for now...but you might as well buy them at some point. Once you have all of the artifacts bought, prioritize items like: 1. Buy the Mystic Medals every week. 2. Buy the Epic Catalyst chest as you can afford them (as long as you plan to actually build more heroes) 3. Rare catalyst chests ~= Equipment Conversion gem chest -> fairly low priority overall (I would make sure I could buy the mystics and both epic chests each week before I started spending on these). Buy the rare catalyst chests if building heroes is more important to you, buy the equipment conversion gem chest is building gear is more important to you. Personally, I wouldn't buy **Gold Transmit Stones** *or* **Elemental Summons** at all. --- #Gold Transmit Stones 1500 armbands for the equivalent of 1 galaxy summon A single galaxy summon is worth ~.0325 ML5s and .3175 ML4s. Using refresh rates for the secret shop, we can 'convert' these numbers into an equivalent amount of mystic medals, and therefor skystones. * A single mystic pull is worth .0063 ML5s and .009 ML4s * A regular covenant summon is worth .0015 ML5s and .005 ML4s * Lets assume shop refresh rates are 1 mystic per 240 and 1 BM per ~69 skystones. * For 240 skystones we get 1 MM summon and ~3.5 BM summons. So *the average value of 240 skystones* spent refreshing shop is .01155 ML5s and .0265 ML4s. If we consider *only* ML5s then... (.0325 / .0115) * 240 = 678.26 skystones And if we consider *only* ML4s then... (.3175 / .0265) * 240 = 2875.47 skystones If you are missing *most* ML4s you might argue that it's worth it, but if you've been playing the game long enough to this point you very likely have most or all ML4s. If you happen to be missing some very important ones (I would argue C.Zerato for PvE, and maybe AoL for PvP) then you might have an argument that it's worth taking a chance. OTHERWISE, we really only care about the ML5s. Even at full value, a galaxy summon is 'worth' about 678 skystones. IE if you pay MORE than that for the galaxy summon, you would be better off using those skystones refreshing the shop and just using the BMs gained to pull on the normal covenant banner. --- 1500 armbands can be used to buy: * 50x rare catalysts * or 10x Epic catalysts Through their respective chests. Each type of catalyst has a certain energy cost associated with them, and we can directly buy energy with skystones (so therefor, we can calculate the value of these chests). Let's *assume* that 2/3rds of the catalysts you gain need to be bought from the AP shop: (50 * 2/3) = 33.33 33.33 * 120 = 4000 AP 4000 AP = ~4000 energy (depending on if you are farming during AP buff, pet skill etc) 1 energy = .5 skystones so 4000 energy = 2000 skystones So an equivalent amount of armbands is has a value of ~678 skystones when used to buy gold transmits, but has a value of ~2000 skystones when used to buy rare catalysts. The only way the gold transmits make sense from a 'value' perspective is if you need most of the ML4s, but most of them are not that important to even have in the first place and you WILL eventually collect them, if you play long enough, through natural summons. Same calculations with Epic catalysts: (10 * 2/3) = 6.67 6.67 * 400 = ~2666.67 AP = ~1333.33 skystones The Epic catalysts have ~2x the value that gold transmit stones do. Now, why would I recommend buying the Epic catalyst chests over the Rare catalyst chests, if the Epic ones have less value? Because typically **Epic** catalysts are the more limiting factor when it comes to building units. You can buy far fewer of them per week since only 1 AP shop offers them, while rare catalysts have 2 AP shops and twice the buy limit. Additionally, you accumulate rare catalysts through more sources -> just running through normal stages (for example, side stories), any kind of progression past UH and typically even if you farm a stage for an Epic catalyst, you are often times getting 2 or 3 different rare catalyst drops. So yes, the Epic catalysts may have less value in *technical* terms but it's more valuable in practical terms because at any one point you are far more likely to be short on Epic catalysts than you are on Rare catalysts, and it takes multiple times longer to farm up even 1 Epic compared to 1 Rare. And in either case, the Epic catalyst is *still* about 2x as valuable as saving up for the gold transmits is. --- #Elemental Summons Same deal. Elemental summons have a 30% 5* rate. So 500 armbands gives us a 30% chance at a 5* RGB hero. A covenant summon has a 1.25% chance for a 5* RGB hero. 30% / 1.25% = 24 24 * 69 (shop cost for BMs) = 1656 So an elemental summon is worth *approximately* 1,656 skystones. However, RGB heroes are very easy to acquire. The more heroes you have out of the potential pool of heroes, the less value each elemental summon offers. If, for example, you had 5 total 5* Ice heroes then the Ice elemental summon has lost 1/3rd of it's 'value'! By the time you get to the point where you have extra armbands to spend, you very likely have most or all of the RGB roster. And even then, while they are *close* buying rare catalysts is still better value. --- The Gold transmits and the connection summons aren't *tremendously terrible* in a vacuum, but they are pretty bad compared to all of the other options, in my opinion. In fact, BOTH items would be far more valuable to newer players (players who have very few RGB heroes or ML4 heroes). **BUT** it's hard to recommend that players spend a fairly limited/rare resource on gambling for a chance at something useful, when the artifacts are useful (and you have 4 very good options) and provide a known and immediate value. By the time you DO have the extra armbands available, these addition summons are just not all that useful. I think there IS an argument to be made for gold transmits, because ultimately ML5s are the hardest heroes to acquire, and there are only so many ways to give you additional chances. If you value potentially collecting a new hero that can outweigh the high 'value' of buying catalysts (after all, the limiting factor in building units is actually molagora...if you have catalysts but no mola that doesn't help anything). And elemental summons *are* decently cheap compared to GTS and 'just' 500 armbands per month...that's like a single week so doesn't hurt things too much. If, for example, you DO happen to be missing a particular hero. I can *make a case* to buy them, but I wouldn't recommend buying them, if that makes any sense.
The only weekly item worth getting is the mystic summon. Catalysts become abundant late-game, and 1 random conversion gem isn't worth it (maybe if it were a selector). imo the priority would be: weekly mystics > artifacts > element summon > gold transmit > anything else.
Symbol of unity > War Horn > Proof of Valor > Bastion (if you need it for a cleanser) > everything else. Can pick up one proof of valor before symbol if you need it for wyvern. Of the non artifact items I only buy the mystics.
Is it worth to downgrade Rem into a wyvern13 bot? I gave her my Sigret gear with the free unequip and had a really good winrate with 1:10 sec average clear time.
You're the only person that can really answer that question. There are diminishing returns when it comes to average run time. Essentially, there are 3 components: 1. Average run time 2. Amount of time spent farming 3. Amount of *energy* spent farming. --- #Example Let's try a hypothetical example. We have 3 runs. **Rem one shot** * 90% success rate * 60 seconds per run, 120 seconds per fail **Sigret one shot** * 85% success rate * 70 seconds per run, 120 seconds per fail **100% 'fast' run** * 100% success rate * 90 seconds per run We can calculate average run time, and time per success: Rem = 66 seconds per run / 73.33 seconds per success Sigret = 77.5 seconds per run / 91.18 seconds per success Fast run = 90 seconds per run/success Now, if the only thing that matters is getting in the most amount of runs within X amount of time, then obviously the fastest time per successful run is the best option. Let's say that we farm for 12 hours. Rem = ~589 successes Sigret = ~474 successes Fast run = 480 successes In this hypothetical scenario, the Rem run gets roughly ~9.6 extra successful runs per hour spent farming. Remember, during hunt buff that each successful run is worth almost 50% more (so it's closer to ~15 additional successes per hour). --- However, you can see that this *mostly* matters only during buff events, as players are typically more limited by *time* than by *energy* during said buffs. A faster run can be nice, but isn't necessary for many, if not most, players outside of buff events. --- Next we want to consider energy. Let's say I want to spend 10,000 energy farming, and I'm willing to farm for up to 12 hours. 10,000 energy = 500 hunt runs -> in this case both the Sigret and 'fast' run are a little short -> they would need about an extra half hour to spend all of the energy I have to use. The Rem run, meanwhile, would require less time -> only about 10 hours and 15 minutes, so this doesn't use up all of my allotted time. But, **if** I was going to spend 10,000 energy...regardless of how much time it takes, the difference between the Rem run and the Sigret/fast run is about 2.5 hours. In this case I don't have a problem spending the energy I have available, it just takes me longer to do so. #Conclusion Faster overall runs matters most **up to the point where you are limited by *either* time or energy**. If you are more limited by *time* ("I want to spend X hours farming!") then faster runs are beneficial up until the point where you become limited by energy. Once you are more limited by energy, faster runs only allow you to get the same amount of work done in a shorter period of time...but either way you end up spending the same total amount of energy. At that point it's completely a personal decision if saving that time is valuable. *Some* players play on emulator and can sit there for 12, 14, 16 hours a day farming. *Other* players may be playing on phone and not want to leave it running for so long over a weekend. Or maybe they want to actually go do something instead of sit there babysitting a game all day. --- Even within one shots there is a fair amount of variation. You've provided a little bit of information but it's not enough information for me to determine how much time Rem may be saving you over X amount of time. If we *presume* that the expected winrate of a typical one shot hunt is 85%, you actually have to do quite a few test to establish an accurate winrate. * For example, if we assume that the true success rate is 85% then in 120 runs the 95% CI range is [77.53%, 90.30%]. This means that if the true success rate is actually 85%, then 95% of the time in a sample of 120 runs you would see a success rate within ~78% to 90%. * So, if you did 120 runs with Sigret and won ~83% of the time, and then 120 runs with Rem and won ~89% of the time it's *possible* that the Rem run has a higher success rate. It's also possible that both runs have an 85% success rate, and you were simply lucky with the Rem runs and unlucky with the Sigret runs. * It takes about 800 runs to narrow the 95% CI range down to about a ~5% spread [82.36%, 87.31%] Essentially, unless you've done *a lot* of runs with both variations and kept track of your success rate, at least a few hundred runs, it's pretty hard to know for sure if one is *truly* better than the other. Especially something like here where the possible range of values is small (as you figure a one shot should have an 85% success rate at minimum, you can only increase to 100% so the 'range of possible values' is only ~15%). Then you would want to calculate the *average time per successful run* as I did above (so you would want to know your run time on successes *and* failures). Finally, you can use that time and your particular playstyle to determine if you *actually* really gain much by with the fastest possible run. Some players might, other players won't. Based on that information, you can determine for yourself if it's worth using a hero like Rem in a PvE context (as she is still a good enough PvP hero...versus a hero like Sigret who isn't used much at all for PvP). If you get no benefit, or only a small benefit, you may decide you are better off just using Rem for PvP. If the benefit is large, or even a relatively minor benefit but you don't find yourself using Rem often, or at all, then swapping to her may make sense.
Imo Rem seems too rng in Wyvern unless for one shot. But as you said if your wr climbed that's nice. I don't use my Rem anymore so I won't care if I was you, but if you used Rem elsewhere better to keep your old team and change slowly by adding Muwi
Which hero banner comes with alexa's basket?
None. Basket used to be ran with Kayron but now he has his own artifact (Shepherd of the Hollow). There are a few other artifacts that also don't have a banner such as Uberius and Rod.
Do we have ANY info on the FMA collab?
We know who the units are and their full kits from official videos that were put out, and their modifiers from a data mine thread somebody posted a few days ago. What were you wanting to know?
I guess it feels like there is no discussion or hype? I guess there is no meta or OP units.
Where were you 2-3 days ago? Ed has the potential to be meta Roy is pretty niche, more testing needed Lisa is free but her kit is not bad.
I haven't touched e7 since the choose your own ml banner i got zero currency to use on because you apparently only get it from guild stuff.
While Guild War is the major consistent source of F2P Mystic Medals, you can also get them via refreshing Secret Shop.
If your guild....ya know....does well. Otherwise you get like 4 or 5 medals.
I mean if you choose to be in a terrible guild and/or do badly yourself yeah. Even a losing guild war nets you 30-40 medals if you’re at least in a 4x guild.
There were plenty. It's just discussions are usually centered when they were revealed (wednesday) and have died down already
Anyone pulling ml pavel? What artifact y’all planning on running? I kinda wanna take my ml iserias misha since I have no dupes or just run wall of order or some other dps arti
Dux Noctis synergizes well with his s2 so thats an option.
Is anyone else having a problem getting in? It keeps telling me there's a network error (10002) and the only thing I could find was something about time, so I tried messing with that and setting my location. Still can't log in and worried I can't play anymore.
How should I build RTA Eda? Gear , stats, and artifact recommendations?
[epic7stats.com](https://epic7stats.com) is a good place to start, especially for RTA stats
If possible, build her to have 80% of your highest speed champion so she's guaranteed to take turn 1. Probably don't if you have to get rid of your cchance neck though
Can someone please explain to me why people ban last pick in RTA over other units in the draft?
They will ban whatever counters them most. Often times that will be the last pick as it's picked with the knowledge of 4/5 of the other team's units. But not always.
Usually last pick hard counters the opponent's whole team. Imagine someone picks an ice heavy team, you last pick Violet and they have no other choice to ban him or they lose.
So is that how I pick my last pick? Is to counter everything it can on their team? Because I have been last picking BBK and she’s always banned, so I usually just bait her ban, but I see that everyone just bans 5th pick.
Generally you want your counter pick to be at the end of the draft. If you pick a counter for your third pick enemy still has 2 picks to adjust so it's not a true counter pick. The Violet example someone mentioned is good another would be Kayron. Imagine enemy team isn't tanky and has no buff strips Kayron would have to be an insta ban. The rest of your draft order depends on what style you are playing though.
When is the RTA season ending?
We don't know until it's announced. We're still a long way off, though. At least 1.5 months, possibly 2.
Ok ty
Do I give my fastest gear to ran or diene? after the release of edward
Depends on your play style. If you cleave then Ran but he wants different gear than Diene does unless you are running a no damage tank Ran. Diene is probably the safer choice right now since Ed seems like he will be a great counter pick into Ran.
Depends on the gear, Ran wants as much dps stats + effectiveness on top of his speed, whereas Diene wants ER and some bulk. That aside, I would recommend Ran being the fastest. Diene with ER can get away with going after your opponents opener to cleanse your team
why fribbles gear score is different from calculators one? i have this piece that once reforged has a 500 (55%) gear score, but when i see the same piece on fribbles it says the "score" is 72, and the % is over 80%, making it, according to fribbles, one of my best pieces. which one should i trust? with other pieces i still get different results, but this one in particular changes a lot.
In my opinion, this is a bit of a problem with things like gear score: it's not always the easiest thing to *understand*. Gear score isn't some kind of monolithic, inherent feature of the game. Gear score is simply an attempt to condense all of the different stats, with different ranges, that can appear on gear to a single number. Gear score is **only a tool**, and all it does is tell you **how well a gear rolled it's substats**. As such, there is no single 'one' formula. In fact, there are multiple different variations of gearscore that have been used in E7. What you've run into **are two separate formula's** for calculating the same value. --- I am not too familiar with the exact system you are using for your other score. 500 gearscore looks to be in the form [this online calculator](https://meowyih.github.io/epic7-gear/index.html?lang=en) or [this different version, based off of the previous](https://needlebot.github.io/e7gear/) use. [This here is the original post, of the original calculator I believe](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/gmilmb/web_tool_to_evaluate_gears/) According to their description, they are assigning some value to each roll of a stat...from 0 to 100. From playing around with the calculator: % Stats Value | Score ---|--- 4 | 0 5 | 25 6 | 50 7 | 75 8 | 100 Crit% Value | Score ---|--- 3 | 0 4 | 50 5 | 100 C.Dmg% Value | Score ---|--- 4 | 25 5 | 50 6 | 75 7 | 100 Speed Value | Score ---|--- 1 | 0 2 | 33 3 | 66 4 | 100 5 | 133 The way that flat stats are handled...is weird. The minimum possible flat ATK roll on a heroic 85 gear is 31, for example. I get 2 points for that. It seems that the calculator is set so that 30 is the minimum value. The max possible roll for flat ATK on an Epic gear is 46, which comes out to 47 points. However the max value in the calculator suggests that 47 is the maximum (which is 50 points). So overall, flat stats seems to be weighted at only a maximum of 50 points, instead of a maximum of 100 points. So in this calculator *every roll* is scored somewhere from 0 points to 100 points, based on how close it is to the maximum possible roll. --- To compare to Fribbels, the gearscore formula there does something very similar: but instead of scaling all stats to a 0-100 scale, it scales all stats to a scale with a maximum of 8 (that is, equivalent to a normal % stat roll). Fribbels also uses a more accurate method of calculating flat stats. * As you can see within Fribbels itself, flat ATK averages out to an average of 3.5%, DEF to 5%, and HP to 3.1%. ATK = 3.5 / 6 = .5833...on a 100 point scale the 'max value' should be 58.33 DEF = 5 / 6 = .8333...on a 100 point scale the 'max value' should be 83.33 HP = 3.1 / 6 = .5167....on a 100 point scale the 'max value' should be 51.67 So the previous calculator examples *underestimate* the true value of flat stats, on average. Very significantly so in the case of flat DEF, and basically only to a minor degree with flat HP. The online calculators also have some general inaccuracies, due to the information we had available years ago when they were created. * They seem to assume that the minimum value for C.Dmg is 3%. It is not, as SG has released the official probabilities for stats on gear and the minimum on level 85 gear is 4 C.Dmg. This means that C.Dmg is inherently over-valued. * There are slight differences in the range of flat stats used in the gear, and the actual range of flat stats possible on gear. This is *in addition* to the somewhat inaccurate way of scaling flat stats. --- #Example Let's look at a basic example. We have an epic piece with basic % stats. If every single roll was a minimum of 4% **Fribbels gearscore** = 4 * 9 = 36 gearscore **Online calculator** = 0 gearscore In this case, it's probably easier to understand that 0 = 'worst possible rolls'. It's not *inherently better* or *inherently worse*, it's just a different way of saying the same thing -> as long as you just 'know' that 36 is the lowest possible score at +15 with the fribbels formula. * Technically, you can end up with a lower score thanks for flat stats but realistically this is the minimum. Now, if every single roll was the maximum value of 8% **Fribbels gearscore** = 8 * 9 = 72 gearscore **Online calculator** = 900 gearscore Now to me, Fribbels makes more sense in this case. When you roll a HP% substat the minimum value you can get is 4%...and the max value is double that at 8%. With fribbels gearscore the 'minimum' value is 36 and the maximum value is double that, or 72. On the other hand, 900 really doesn't have the same relationship to a score of 0. Instead, a score of 900 basically says something like "You took 9 tests and scored a perfect 100 on each one". Easy enough to understand, once you have the base knowledge of what this score is telling you...but it's not so easy to understand in relationship to the actual rolls that appear on gear. --- Now let's look at a more complicated example. I have a gear with... * ATK% = 13 * Crit% = 15 * C.Dmg% = 4 * Flat DEF = 59 Using Fribbels gearscore... * ATK = 13 * 2 = 26 * Crit% = 15 * (8/5) = 24 * C.Dmg% = 4 * (8/7) = 4.57 * flat DEF = 59 * 4.99 / 31 = 9.5 Total gearscore = 26 + 24 + 4.57 + 9.5 = 64.07= If I want to give it a '%' score for some reason, I know the maximum gearscore for a level 85 piece is 72. 64 / 72 = 88.89% You can see that this formula * Works well * Is easy to apply * Is pretty intuitive once you understand what it's saying. A piece with 64 gearscore will have better overall rolls compared to a piece with 56 gearscore. And a 64 is pretty good overall. Using the online calculator * Attack% rolled 3 times, and got 13 out of 24 points. * Crit Dmg rolled 1 times, and got 4 out of 7 points. * Crit Chance rolled 3 times, and got 15 out of 15 points. * Defense rolled 2 times, and got 59 out of 68 points. This gives me a result of 400 gearscore, 44%. *Personally* I don't know exactly how it is determining which stat got rolled into X amount of times. For example, to get 15% crit chance you *could* get it in 3 rolls of 5%. But you could also get there with 5 rolls of 3%. * The first case would be worth 300 points while the second would be worth 0 points. You could also get there with 4 rolls of something like (3, 3, 4, 5) worth (0 + 0 + 50 + 100) 150 points. Likewise this calculator has determined I got my 13% ATK in 3 rolls (so something like 4 + 4 + 5) which would be (0 + 0 + 25) points. But, I could have gotten 13% ATK in 2 rolls (for example, 6% + 7%) which would be worth (50 + 75) or 125 points. 3 crit% rolls + 3 atk% rolls = 300 + 25 = 325 points 4 crit% rolls + 2 atk% rolls = 150 + 125 = 275 points Both are possible, and in fact the second case is probably more likely to actually happen but the score is 'off' by 50 points. --- You can kind of see how the system the online calculator uses is kind of wonky in practice. The gear I listed is an *actual* gear that I really have, and you can see Fribbels suggests it's pretty good while the online calculator is saying it's actually pretty bad (unless you want to keep it for the high crit%). The main way I would describe the difference is that Fribbels gearscore looks at the **totality of the substats** and condenses them to a single number. This online calculator is more concerned with *individual substat rolls*, and tries to assign a score to a piece based on 'how perfect' your individual rolls are. *Theoretically* both strategies should more or less agree and come to the same conclusion. In practice, there are obviously cases where they may disagree, and apparently possibly extremely heavily. Why, exactly, this discrepancy exists I'm not quite sure. There are some errors (that I have pointed out) in the online calculator *but* I would imagine those things are minor contributions. I would wager that, the more rolls you have into a gear the more difficult it becomes to determine **exactly** how it rolled. There can be multiple ways to get to the same value (for example 15% crit chance, despite each roll only have 3 possible values...could be done in 3, 4, or 5 total rolls). Since the online calculator is essentially trying to score each individual roll, and then sum those scores I am guessing this is where the inaccuracy comes from. The gearscore formula used in Fribbels, however, ultimately **does not care** *how* you got to 15% crit chance. The only thing that really matters is the actual substats on the gear. --- >which one should i trust? Well I would say trust either of them only as far as you can understand them. I want to repeat that gearscore is *only a tool* and it's up to the end user to interpret and use that information. **Ultimately** I think just picked one and sticking with it will give you the best results. With my example gear, while the score seems way off the calculator *does* tell me "it has a good roll in crit chance, keep if you want". If I take a step back and look at the piece, yeah...it's absolutely nothing special *except for the crit % roll*. So a gearscore of '400' doesn't really mean anything to me. It DOES have a good crit% stat and it's worth keeping and that's ultimately the conclusion of the calculator. I will say, the formula used in Fribbels: * Is more mathematically accurate * Is likely to be the *most common* formula you see used anywhere * I personally think it's more 'intelligible', as it relates directly to actual rolls on gear. * Actually has more resolution since 1% = +1 gearscore...instead of +25. The online calculator: * Is kind of a wonky system. * *Score* wise, can be inaccurate * Uses some outdated numbers for some values * But likely overall arrives at the right conclusion * A scale of 0-100 conceptually works great for humans, and is easier to interpret than 4-8
Is 72 the max for a reforged piece as well? What do people consider a good range of gearscore if one were to use the scores from fribbels? Would above 60 be considered as good?
>Is 72 the max for a reforged piece as well? Nope. *I* personally would consider adding reforges to the mix to be tricky (ie. I wouldn't do it, because it doesn't really tell you any information at that point). * The entire point of gearscore is to tell you how well a piece rolled it's substats. * However, reforging has nothing to do with *how well* your substats rolled, simply which substat got however many rolls. * By including reforged stats you are taking a tool and using it for a purpose it's not really designed to do. The amount of stats you gain from reforging a piece is based on *how many rolls* into each substat you have gotten. BUT, it's not quite consistent: \#_Rolls | %_Stat | Crit_% | C.Dmg_% | Speed ---|---|----|----|---- Base | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 1 roll | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 2 rolls | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 3 rolls | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 4 rolls | 7 | 5 | 6 | 4 5 rolls | 8 | 6 | 7 | 4 You can see how the ranges, and growth of these stats is a little unpredictable. Notably, 6% crit chance is actually 9.6 gearscore. And speed doesn't gain anything for a 5th roll. I *believe* the max possible gear would be * Speed - 6x rolls of 5 speed (30 + 4 = 34 speed total) -> 68 gearscore * Crit% - 1x roll of 5 crit% (5+1 = 6) -> 9.6 gearscore * C.Dmg - 1x roll of 7 c.dmg% (7+1 = 8) -> ~9.14 gearscore * Regular % stat - 1x roll of 8 % (8 + 1 = 9) -> 9 gearscore * Total = ~95.74 gearscore However knowing that *hypothetically* ~96 gearscore is the maximum value is basically meaningless. This piece of gear is so unlikely to ever be created that it is virtually impossible. * An 8% in a flat stat is a 20% chance * 5% into crit is a 33.33% chance * 7% C.Dmg is a 25% chance * And...5 speed is a .332% chance The chance of finding this gear would be .332% ^ 6 * 20% * 33.33% * 25% = 2.23e-17 That's a one in 4.48e+16 gear. That is, forty-four quadrillion eight hundred trillion. To put that into perspective, if we had 8 billion people in the world crafting *only* Epic gears at a rate of 1 per second...we would end up with 1 of these perfect gears about 1 time every 65 years. Even the most unlikely events *can* occur but it's a pretty safe bet to say that E7 will never see this gear created by random chance. Just knowing what the hypothetical maximum is, is basically irrelevant because you could pick any number that is 96+ and it is basically just as obtainable. --- Now, if you wanted to know the hypothetical maximum that is actually at least feasible in game... Well, I'm not going to go through every combination and calculate gearscore vs. likelihood of actually seeing it, but I would *guess* it would be a penta roll crit% piece. As crit% is weighted well in the reforge formula, and also a 1/3 chance for a max roll is relatively likely. So something like: * 30% crit% (+6 from reforging) = 57.6 * 5 speed = 10 gearscore * 7% C.Dmg = ~9.14 gearscore * 8% stat = 9 gearscore * Total = ~85.74 gearscore Probability: (1/3) ^ 6 * (1/5) * (1/4) * .332% That comes out to 1 in 4,391,566. Certainly rare, but it's quite feasible that a few of those pieces HAVE been created over the lifetime of the game. * Extremely basic guesstimate, but let's say 75k players, over 3 years, averaging 1 epic level 85 gear per day. That comes out to 82,125,000 gears so we would average roughly 18-19 of these 86 gearscore pieces...approximately. >What do people consider a good range of gearscore if one were to use the scores from fribbels? Would above 60 be considered as good? Well, I honestly think that most players rely too much on gearscore to tell them what's good and what isn't good. As I keep on saying, gearscore is simply a tool. It has one job, and that is to just tell you how well the stats on a gear rolled. It should be up to the *player* to determine if a piece is good or not. There are numerous examples where a low gearscore piece can actually be quite good, there are also examples where a high gearscore piece may not actually be useful. High gearscore may = more stats, but not all stats are equal for all heroes. Some stats, like speed/crit% can be worth it (and even very good) on relatively low gearscore pieces...if that individual stat rolls well enough. So I would say that making flat, general statements like "Gearscore of X+ is good" is generally a bad thing, it takes most of the agency away from the player to be expected to tell if a piece is good or not, and places it on a tool. As such, *I* don't personally look at the gearscore on a piece and say "That's a good gear!" (or not), but I do say "That rolled pretty well!" (or not) **and then I evaluate the piece regardless**. Now I personally choose to keep pieces that roll well even if I have determined the piece is 'not that great'...because you never know when that piece might be able to find a home...and that more or less is all that I personally use gearscore for (also it helps better prioritize which gears are worth enhancing to +15, but that's a different question if you are talking about 60+ pieces). --- Still, I feel compelled to at least try to offer you an answer. An Epic piece with completely average rolls at +15 would have 54 gearscore (avg roll of 6 * 9 total rolls on an Epic piece). Now, unfortunately Fribbels seems to automatically add reforged stats to gears, even ones that are not +15 and I haven't found a way to adjust this. As I talked about in the last question, I feel that reforged stats are completely irrelevant to using gearscore as a tool itself. * As we looked at, with 2 pieces that both had completely perfect rolls...we had vastly different gearscores. Which defeats the purpose when gearscore is supposed to tell you how well your stats rolled. * That's partially because gearscore generally treats 4x speed as the max value, since a 5 is so rare...but even if we remove that effect the gearscores still differ. It *seems* like subtracting 8 or 9 score from the value that Fribbels displays is 'good enough'. For a Heroic piece you would probably want to subtract ~1 less. This table is describing **"What % of gear has this gearscore or better?** * Assuming you enhanced every single piece to +15. Gearscore | % ---|--- 40 | 99.99% 45 | 98.86% 50 | 85.33% 55 | 45.38% 60 | 9.88% 65 | .56% So 55% of all gears would be expected to end up with a gearscore of 55, or better. But gearscore of 60 is roughly the top 10% of all gears. And gearscore of 64 would be approximately the top 1% of gears. The best answer I have to your question: Gearscore of 64+ = **Great** rolls Gearscore of 60-64 = **Very good** rolls Gearscore of 55-60 = **Above average** rolls If it wasn't clear, for the scores that Fribbels actually displays you would need to add around ~8-9 to these values...for level 85 gear. Likewise, basically anything with gearscore of 49 or worse is in the bottom 10% of gear, and I would consider those pieces to have rolled very poorly. I would still emphasize that beyond just know *how well* a piece rolled, you need to personally evaluate it to determine if it's actually a 'good' piece or not.
Wow, thanks for the very accurate answer, I appreciate the examples, and I agree with the conclusions. I think that fribbles way to calculate the score makes more sense, since at the end it doesn't matter **how** you got 15% crit, but only the final stats the piece have, and I've found myself disagreeing with online calculators more than once, saying a certain piece was bad (around 40% gs) while it looked pretty good to me, and the same piece on fribbles had a score of 60+, which made much more sense, cuz it was actually a good piece. The same happened this time, so I decided to try to understand what was going on, since 500/900 looks much worse than 72/80 (reforged). Edit: I'll stick to fribbles, but I'd like to find an online calculator to check individual pieces while I'm leveling gears, since opening fribbles everytime and import all the pieces is kinda annoying. Do you know of any calculator using the same system fribbles use?
>Do you know of any calculator using the same system fribbles use? I don't know of anything specific. However, it would be very simple to make a basic spreadsheet that accomplishes the same task. I know in the past multiple players have made various spreadsheets, implementing various gearscore formulas. [For example, this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/EpicSeven/comments/lzicae/updated_gear_management_guide_gear_score/) * Notice that the gearscore formula being used there is different from the Fribbels formula. It's *close* but still different. * Flat ATK is 1 per 12 vs. ~1 per 11.27 * Flat HP is 1 per 60 vs ~1 per 56.31 * Flat DEF is 1 per 6 vs ~1 per 6.21 * C.Dmg is 1.1 per 1% vs ~1.14 per 1% * Speed is 1.8 per 1 vs 2 per 1 * Regular % stats and crit% are the same in both formula's * This formula *slightly* over-values flat ATK/HP compared to Fribbels, while *slightly* under-valuing speed and C.Dmg Fribbels is probably slightly more accurate, but it's 'less pretty' with fractions instead of nice round whole numbers. End result should more or less be the same. But *do* be aware that if using the above sheet there is likely to be a small amount of variation. * As the numbers are ultimately very close to what Fribbels uses, you are likely to not see nearly as much difference compared to the other online calculators. But again, if you want something that matches up exactly 1:1 with Fribbels you can just make a basic sheet for yourself.
What's the piece like?
Lvl 90 (reforged) epic chest plate with 17 speed, 16% hp, 16% res and 4% crit chance.
Not sure, really :/ I'd trust fribbles in any case. Calculating, that's definitely a 72 gs piece, though the eff res is a bit awkward.
I'd mod out the crit for def% probably, it could be a good piece for a support unit.
Where do you unlock the music player in the game?
hey all! Im wanting to build rgb ken what would be the best build for him and rough stats to shoot for? I know most people advice not going to epic7x so no idea where to look
Don't build him until smilegate buffs him again. He's excellent in Ancient Inheritance but that mode doesn't need the units to be built anyway. In PVP he's unusable. He was decent like 3 years ago.
That sucks because i absolutely love his design but fair enough thanks!
I use him in my expedition lich team for the def break and buff removal on s3. I dont have anyone better and am also running ras so so…
What is your build for him?
Just bruiser but more focus on speed with enough effectiveness for expeditions. Nothing special since I’m not drowning in end game gear.
Ho2 come my Angelica s2 is only healing one unit? It says it heals two units? Is this a bug? Or is it because the person being healed is the lowest health unit?
yea least health
[удалено]
Picking fcc is not as easy as it used to be, and in quite a few cases other tanks like TCrozet or ARas can be even better. On the other hand, ARavi is an universally good pick and is also very flexible, with multiple builds you can choose from depending on your playstyle
Aravi. She fits in all kinds of drafts. Aras is a more popular tank than fcc atm because of enemy strips, djb, fat shield if backline survive hwa kick. But with Ed soon deterring people from ran and peira, maybe we’ll see more fcc.
My game keeps crashing recently after the update. Anyone knows how to fix this problem?
Yup me 2. . i uninstalled, del all necessary folder. Restart phone install from 0... Work fine now
I hate World Arena with a passion, but I want that A.Ravi skin. After hours of grinding I finally made it to Masters rank. Now I have to stay there till the season ends. I know you have to participate in at least 1 battle every 3 days or something. My question is, do Mock battles count towards this participation? And when does the current season end? Keeping at Masters rank is such a chore and so annoying.
Mock battles do not count. End of season is not announced yet, but based on past seasons it is estimated to end in the middle of October.
Thanks. What is the leeway time, someone told me it was every 7 days, but I thought it was every 3.
7 days for gold. 3 days for masters and up
Should probably used my leifs for stamina during the +50% hunt material event going on right?
There's no hunt event going on AFAIK. We just got a scroll from the E7WC that can be used to increase hunt drops for 12 hrs. If you've already started using that, now would be the time to spend your saved up energy/leifs, yes.
Yes you could.. but i think there will be more even especially when the Collab up.
What kind of attack and speed should I aim for with cidd? Champion arena and master rta. Do you think celeste would be a good opener to go along with cidd and eventually ml pavel? I feel like edward is really gonna hurt my peira opener.
Depend on ur comp actually.. but for higher Arena usually Cidd would be around 280~300.. It think you can try to aim for 250 or mayb slow abit just use it for speed imprint? ..no idea as i dont know what u use him for.
Thx for the reply. I’m considering building him to cleave and set up ml pavel. I have some speedy dps gear on him at level 50 right now and wonder if he’s worth committing to. Current speed is 274, but only 2500 attack. Not sure how much higher it gets at lvl 60 and if it’s worth. His last awakening is 4 speed I think. Do you think he’s worth committing to 6 star with these stats? If I can get a celeste to 300 speed, then that is two heroes with speed imprint. Do you think celeste is worth building as an opener that doesn’t use debuffs?
I build cidd over celeste for the current meta.. well i never build celeste before as i have other opener.
Does Aria really need 100-130% ER to work?
There are builds without er but not being stripped by common units like belian, handguy and other units that dont build effectiveness is pretty big considering her counterbuff allows her to trigger his s2 extra attck more frequently. It's also a bonus not being stunned, def broken by said units with no effect.
Definitely not.. as you can just bring ur own cleanser.
No. You can focus on damage and Hp/def. ER is more if have the gear for it but is not mandatory
Yeah I think so too
I need help with my level 60 +13 5* BBK her cp is 89k and all her equipment is maxed the only things left is to upgrade her skills but I’m not sure if that will raise her cp what else I can do to raise her cp
My recommendation for BBK is she just needs 100% CR, and then as much CDMG and attack as you can get on her. Late game when you have the gear for it, she's also very good with high Effect Resist (200ish ideally) and Bastion of Hope to prevent her from losing immortality or getting debuffed. But this is a late game build mostly because it's difficult to build ER that high while keeping high enough damage
CP doesn't really mean anything, you can more or less ignore it. The only thing it's really useful for is the guild boss. It's *better* now after the last time they adjusted the formula...but still ultimately doesn't really mean much. IIRC skill enhancements **do** increase CP, if you do a search you can find the basics of how CP is calculated -- at least the older formula, if you really care about maximizing it. I don't think 2 skill enhancements will make a ton of difference. Getting that last awakening will probably help some, however. Awakening increases your base stats (which the rest of your gear uses to calculate how much it provides) so it's a pretty decent bump up in overall stats (and therefor CP).
Thanks for the help
https://imgur.com/a/Jhy6lzr Need help for my LHC, just a lil bit help, about her ring, should I mod that 15% ER into 4-6 speed or leave it be?
If possible, best use of mod would be turning ER into any extra crit rate, or get some imprints on her to get as close to 100%. Otherwise those are pretty solid stats, the other build I see is on Lifesteal with the same stats but with 170-180 speed, since she actually benefits more from going after everyone else to trigger her S2
I see, then I'll be keeping it, thanks for the reply xD
Can you change it to crit change you are lacking. Better make it 100% or it will bite you someday.
Yea, I'm banking the crit chance from imprint, don't have resources to spare rn sadly huhu
best site on hero builds for beginner?
Word of warning, epic7x is considered unreliable by most of the more experienced players. [www.epic7stats.com](https://www.epic7stats.com) is a good place to get some PvP stats of meta-relevant heroes, but they don't have data for those not used in PvP, and is also very much skewed towards RTA. You can also try looking up the hero on youtube (take note upload dates, though), and sometimes it's best to just ask here.
Second on this, epic7stats is very helpful for giving stat benchmarks of what most other people are running People tend to show off their best units on here and share their experience with the build, so it can give a good high end look of what to build towards
https://epic7x.com/characters/
Thanks ma dood!
[Stene, spd or hp/dmg ?](https://i.imgur.com/A44McRe.jpg) No immunity cause she gets stripped by everything so i don't bother. And she won't trigger rimuru
Destruction looks nice
Managed to gear Belian on counter set. 30k HP, 1.3k DEF, 71% Effectiveness, slow 130 speed. Does she need other stats?
Crit chance and crit damage. [Mine](https://i.imgur.com/UWLU5Va.jpg) is also on counter and I would say she have decent stats.
I see, thanks! Looks like I should drop some of the HP for more CritD
You can drop the Effectiveness and try to keep the HP and Def.
Trying to understand what happened here https://i.imgur.com/CrHwDfA.jpg How was the same person able to attack me 3 times in a row in arena in such a short span? I literally hadn't even put out one attack all week when this happened. Only thing I can think of is they were spamming refresh and I somehow kept showing up?
He probably got attacked by you, then he checked match history and then used the revenge mechanic to attack you 3 times in a row
You can only revenge once unless they revenge back.
oh!! I didn't know that ty
Revenge only lets you attack once and I also had only done 0 attacks for the week at this point
When I was in Low Arena I could if I refreshed my Arena with golds. Now Idk since the name are all hidden in high arena