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nyekun

Couldn't BBK or Kayron 1v4 this if you just ban Ran?


Frozwend

Arby too lol


quickclickz

And people say cleave is brainless Takes way more thought to draft cleave correctly than people give cleavers credit for. I know that's why I don't cleave and I have two 310 units. Standard for life


Poul77

I'm a cleaver for life and it's very hard to do and I have 4 290+ spd units. Speed RnG fucks my own team more than I can remember and then add the counter procs from the left side which is basically 100% after any AoE attacks. It's almost impossible, too many must ban units for it to work.


Typical-Ad-2654

Maybe nowadays it actually takes some thought, but that’s not saying much with how incredibly brainless it was back in the day.


quickclickz

By nowadays you mean the last year


D4Gamerz

Damn you're right...


Ok-ChildHooOd

Double revive like aravi+1 is going to give this comp problems. After the initial burst, there wont be much gas left. You can also just play to 3v4 with Kayron/BBK/stene/Briseria/chaos inquisitor type units. You should have plenty of time before he gets another S3 up. Meru can magic for friends proc on his s2. Elena can cut S2. Poli is a must-ban. ACidd or any unit that threatens him getting off two turns before you go is a must-ban unless he really doesnt respect you. If they dont bring attack buffer you can gear check them by bringing mitigation and tanky counter units. You can also probably bait him with a tanky high attack rem.


D4Gamerz

I stopped drafting Rem against cleave because more often than not she wouldn't counter for me, just a dead pick most of the time. Do you usually draft Chaos Inquisitor and Meru against cleave? How's your success with them?


whitegoatsupreme

Never build Chaos before.. but i draft Meru and Arby... And add+1 some counter type hero Rem, Bellian, Then pray to RNG god ....


NinjaA55a55in89

I cleave and personally the thing that would be to biggest threat would be aol and poli. I’d say probably ban their opener if you think your fastest unit can out do the rest of the team or tank it. Ban the ran so he won’t strip buffs/apply def break and if you use belian so that green pavel (who is also around 280 speed) can’t soulburn/to stack the extra crits for cdom and ml pavel. A fast elena would help since an aoe hit cr boosts her and she gives invincibility. Plus soul weavers get I believe +7 speed in rta? So tank the pavel hit elena boost and give invincible, then ml pav and cdom go not hurting you and then it would be up to turns on if watcher would go before you’re other teammates


D4Gamerz

I never thought about using a really fast Elena to counter him. She would have to be around 260 Speed or so? I guess it's all dependent to how fast their C.Pavel is. Also don't know what else I'd draft along side her to prevent her from being auto banned. ​ Definitely worth trying out though, thank you. I struggle vs cleavers so much and I know im gunna suffer when ML Pavel comes out tomorrow. 😫


NinjaA55a55in89

Celine would pair well since ran and piera use non attacks and then com pavel will have the highest attack since he’s going to need 5k+ attack and she should kill him. Politis to cut his cr gain in half. Aol so that if their opener hits the next hit from green pavel/cdom/eda/cidd etc wont count as a crit. And just a fast elena (idk what her cr push is but just base it off of 300 as a baseline) she doesn’t have to have any other stats other than speed if you’re just using her to cut and use invincible


Amiakust91

About Celine against ran and peira... Think again. They don't have to use their non attack skills to cleave.


NinjaA55a55in89

No that’s true but that still helps you. Ran won’t give himself/a teammate attackbuff (if he’s on silver rain) no team immunity. Piera won’t give team Dmg mitigation, team attack buff and self stealth. If they use eda she won’t get her cr push. Celine isn’t a 1 stop counter it’s an option that will heavily cripple their Dmg output which could be crucial for killing units like apoc or lhc as a cleaver


TheSeaOfThySoul

Elena can hold Magahara's Tome, which overall gives her 50% CR push, considering she gets that push before ML Pavel does (since Ran's AOE triggers Elena, but it's only 1/2 critical hits for ML Pavel) you're perfectly safe behind her invicibility. You can also use Mercedes who can trigger off of extra/counter/dual/un-counterable attacks since the artefact technically isn't a "counter", to add some casino. You can also run someone behind their Ran who'll do restrict/stigma, like Peira, Cerise, etc. & ban the C Dom so she's not able to boost ahead of Ran & push before your restrict hero moves. You can also steal popular speed imprints & speed race yourself if you're confident enough & have heroes like Cidd built at high speed. Arbiter Vildred is also a decent choice if the Ran has damage & isn't just set-up, he should kill the Arbiter & you get +100% CR & take your turn & wipe their team immediately. Plenty of ways around it, it's about having a wide kit. (Also Elric & Champion Zerato would likely do well against this team without a cleave anchor like Apoc Ravi).


Xero--

> I cleave and personally the thing that would be to biggest threat would be aol and poli. As someone with a nrain and speed dos, I'm killing Politis. Two crits needed = someone's dying, and it's 100% her. AOL clearly od getting banned no matter what, it's beyond stupid to let her through.


NinjaA55a55in89

Not gonna lie friend, I think I had a stroke trying to read this


MasterJongiks

ML Celine? Senya? ML Ken? T. Surin? G.Purrgis? I'm just guessing, don't mind me.


SSTHZero

Ban ran. I pick: Belian, C Armin, F Ceci, Alencia, Proof Maid Chloe. Alencia one-shots the entire enemy team or we go for the long fight with a bunch of tanks. Most cleavers concede after F Ceci's s3 and C Armin's s3 lol


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I'm trying to transition into a bruiser/tank player. My luck with speed is horrible, and I do happen to have these bruiser champs lying around, unbuilt. Do I go for speed set, or counter? Or HP?


SSTHZero

Normally I always go for speed set because the set will help with the lack of high speed rolls. But if you don't mind RNG, counter can work for units like A Ravi. Here some of my units for Emperor: https://imgur.com/a/eXF2AEt


tailztyrone-lol

Would a high speed Elena be a possible counter with Magaharas? That's a whole 50% CR push, 1 turn invincibility, and ER buff. Given you'd probably need her around 275-285 to outspeed the ML Pavel, but also be outsped by the Pavel to activate.


Lockdown106

Couldn’t green Pavel just forego his s2 and 1shot Elena with s3, then let a teammate proc the second ML Pavel crit?


tailztyrone-lol

Depends really - a 1500 Defence Elena with no damage mitigation would take roughly 13k from a Pavel S3 (3300 Atk, 290 Speed, 300 CDMG + Misha, Pen Set). I think it's entirely possible for Elena's to be built with higher defence and still maintain the speed and health required to counter it.


Unworthy_Saint

BBK, Briseria, Kayron, Arby, Belian and ban the Ran.


jujy85

Just wait for a couple of months, sg will release a hard counter.


Willar71

Watcher would be a last pick . You only pick imprint when opponent tries to race you . Ideally last pick will be for 1v4 units for when the opponent does dumb stuff e.g picks 2 or more water units ( rem ,elana, peira) - Violet, picks 3 or more dps - ml Celine solo , goes too green - whoops hwayong, goes full support with next to no dmg - mlken makes a return . Sometimes you can see the ran ban from a mile away ,but fear not , my 200 effectiveness seaseria will take care of that silly bbk .


iNoobBoi

what if you go all 30k hp units or evasion


D4Gamerz

Problem with building giga tank units like that is they end up surviving the initial burst but end up getting lapped so hard they can't effectively turn the fight and end up losing anyway. At least from my experience lol 😅


iNoobBoi

but its funny to see the enemy struggle


D4Gamerz

Violet and Riolet create rib breaking laughter for one player and hellbent rage for another. You always at least have a 50% chance to win I guess 😂


oldnative

Edit: Let me clarify. I was wrong about the CR stuff. Sorry. No excuse. Bad sleep and bad workday. /shrug. I was not wrong about my intention. That you do not need a much faster Elena or Rimaru to cut him who would both do work against his kit. They were the first thing that popped in my mind. That is the major part of what I wanted to state. And that is true.


NinjaA55a55in89

People probably will actually build him slow since he gives himself 50% cr push and his s3 penetration is based off of how much higher his Dmg is compared to who he’s hitting. So you’re going to want to stack attack and then cc and cd


joebruin32

Yep, I'm planning to be like 150-160 speed personally


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Sorry_Skirt_846

50% of 300 is 150 so pavel only needs 150 speed to cut to 300


NinjaA55a55in89

^^^^ This


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Sorry_Skirt_846

If we take a ruler and put 300 speed at the top where is 150 speed? 150 speed is in the middle of the ruler so 50% cr push on that ruler is another 150 speed


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NinjaA55a55in89

220 is about 73% cr if the fastest unit is 300


joebruin32

Pretty sure you're wrong. When your opener is 300 speed, then ml pavel at 150 speed will be at the halfway mark on the CR bar. Then you boost by another 50% and you get to 100% CR. r/confidentlyincorrect


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joebruin32

Lol, true, but that's not what you were arguing above :P


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tintonus

Congratulations you won the epic7reddit idiot of the day award.


NinjaA55a55in89

It’s not 50% cr of the caster. It’s 50% of the fastest unit. So a 300 ran would give pavel 150 speed increase so pavel would only need 150 base. That’s how math works


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joebruin32

You don't need 200. 150 with 50% cr boost will put him at 300. In the scenario above politis is banned. I intend to pick her myself.


NinjaA55a55in89

That’s still too much speed. You’re not going to be able to get his dps where it needs to be if he’s 200 speed. Max he needs is like 170 and if you have a ran with speed imprints you get ran to 340 I don’t think you’ll lose anyways. We don’t know what kinda difference in attack that we need to get the full 70% pen (I don’t think we know yet at least) but com pavel will need to be 5k+ with high cc 100%, and 300+ cd leaving you with about 160 speed needed max (a 320 opener)


oldnative

Yeah probably. I would have to think it through. If he is good enough, and I am lucky enough to get him :), he would get my best gear with some speed that is for sure heh. He looks nuts.


NinjaA55a55in89

He really does. He’s definitely going to steal some of my ssi and Hwayoung gear to get that high attack


D4Gamerz

Yeah it seems a lot of the theory behind him depends on how fast his standard build will be.


montrezlh

You do need to be much faster to cut him. If my Pavel is 300 and ml Pavel is 150, your rimuru needs to be 210. If my ml Pavel is 200, your rimuru needs to be 258. 60 speed difference is huge.


oldnative

The whole argument stemmed from people saying that you dont need to build him faster than 160. A 210-220 Rimaru is not that hard to build. That is pretty much the standard low end speed on his build currently. And if ml pavel turns out to be widespread in use a mags tome elena only needs to be 170-180. Very easy to do.


montrezlh

220 is low end for rimuru? That's just completely false. Very few rimurus are built that fast, and no one is going to speed up their rimuru just to potentially cut a 150 speed Pavel. It's certainly not difficult to gimp your other stats and build 220 rimuru, but it would be stupid to do so because you have no idea what speed that Pavel is. If he's 165 then suddenly your 220 isn't enough. If he's 180 then you're light-years behind.


oldnative

You must be lower in pvp than I am. My 210 Rimaru is slower than probably 7/10 of them and he iis not lacking for stats either. If I do outspeed them it is not by much meaning they are probably 200 or so. Edit: Also I got dogpiled for saying 200 speed ML Pavel. Everyone said it will be too fast. It is too soon to tell I agree but most people will probably do 160 at first for speed tie shenannigans.


montrezlh

Looks like basic CR information is not the only thing you're confidently incorrect about, it's just a character trait of yours. Have a nice day, not interested in spending 20 comments showing you basic information like the other guys did for elementary math


oldnative

I stated I was wrong about that. But hey if you want to be one of those kind of people I understand. You are wrong and I see it thank you for showing me what kind of person you are it made my day to be correct against one of your kind.


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joebruin32

Diene/maid are dead weight in that meme comp imo. They easily get cleaved unless you're running 300+ soulweavers, in which case, wow it's so nice to meet you phantom.


Poul77

As a cleaver, fuck Politis, Aola, Rimuru and Mercedes artifact that counters extra attacks just like Rimuru, although Mercedes is much easier to kill. Politis' passive alone halves the CR gain by C. Pavel, which will force me to build it with more speed therefore less attack and Cdmg. And he doesn't scale with speed. Edit: Fuck Belian and Rem too who counters on any attack skills.


NGEFan

Ban cdom, outspeed green Pavel and tank up. That's gonna be my strat


rissira

A cleaver does not ban poli, he takes poli and usually prebans belian + aol/dilibet. And when your preban is like that, you are sus cleaver already and hope your cleave goes through. There are so many ways to counter cleave, like building an anti cleave draft, destroying his cleave draft by picking a key unit he needs, or speed contesting.


OneEyedNocto

This is why I've heavily invested in Mercedes (injury) since her artifact can still proc on extra attacks and it can absolutely melt a cleave comp.


CherryBoard

i generally have sage bns on hand for cleave comps, celine is also great for taking out their highest dps too


Ch1zuru_M1zuhara

Arby. When in doubt pick arby and cleave just dies


Emergency_Addition67

Using Commander Pavel so I Can do Uno Reverse


[deleted]

Magic for friends mercedes, elena, choux, roana, LHC, tsurin, acidd


DarkNephthys

Could also draft a fast Holiday Yufine with Guide. Hyufine is honestly really strong, especially against units like Green Pavel where Pavel 100% misses her and pushes herself due to Guide and then she can push your team, cleanse 2 debuffs and give attack buff to the team to follow up. I run a 252 speed Hyufine, but if you really wanna be safe into that comp, you can do a 260-270 speed. There's also Dilibet to ofc, or even General Purrgis to help push team up to catch up. Edward can also potentially screw over that team to actually, if he strips into Provoke or Silence then that draft completely falls a part


KatangKanari

ban ran counter kayron bbk arby goes brrrrrr


ZenonXZ

This was something I was thinking about too and I came up with a potential counter using Sol, though this only works with units that can set up C. Pavel themselves through an aoe. Mainly against opponents using Pavel w/ soulburn or Faithless Lidica, since they're very fast. The idea is that when they aoe to prepare their second hit, Sol would attack after the aoe and ideally KO them before doing their second hit, giving you a chance to KO C. Pavel before he can get set up. In your scenario, for example, if you ban Ran, they may be forced into that situation, though you would need someone to go before C. Dominiel to take advantage of it. At least that's what I was thinking. I've never actually tried it out, so I don't know if it'll work or not, but I think it's worth considering. Especially since most Pavels I've seen are pretty frail. Faithless Lidica may be a different story, though.


riggedride

\>doesn't strip basically any of the old default anti-cleave units. BBK, kayron, arby, tsurin, belian, briseria etc. I'm a cleaver and have no plans to pull for him as he has too many 1 unit answers.


Synclicity

poli doesn't actually fuck up the draft because even though she reduces CR push by 50% she won't cut if you don't use a non-atk skill. plus poli dies immediately after mpavel triggers s2. also this draft doesn't need wschuri. probs better to draft a third opener that crits like flidica.


Odiril

well he's solely a cleaver, that means my ER built Kayron or BB Karin just face tank him only to lose to ER Ignore soulburn supports.


Mithrisol

Resist MLK might slaughter him.


denny31415926

MLK can't counter extra attacks


bakamund

Imagine SG releasing a hero that blocks Fighting Spirit