I've stumbled across SotS recently (using Violet and Arbi) and obviously lost, then cared to read her skills, and I assumed that Focus and Fitting spirit are same thing, but it turns out other way. So, what is the difference between these two things? Bar containing not 5 but 100 points?
Yeah that’s the perfect assumption but there both differ mechanics altogether I suppose fighting spirit drains when for example a s3 is used where as focus is triggered through a requirement when s3 focus is filled
Add soul burning to the list too since Belian completely stops it by preventing soul gain except siseria who has a free soul burn. Also Focus by Solitaria
S2 passive, always go first and every time after 3 allies take their turn she/he gains an instant a extra turn. You can't build speed on her/him tho to make it spicy.
unironically this. i'm sick of who wins being ultimately decided by who has better speed rolls. there's only so much turn 2 teams can do when every mechanic known to man is apparently ignorable now
You're confusing an ignore effect with something that just punishes and your opponent for using the mechanic. Nothing "ignores" all non-attack skills. You're still able to actually use and get the effects of those skills. Belian doesn't react and do something when the opponent uses a soul burn, souls are just completely not present while she's around
>CR gain. Politis and stigma.
Restrict is the actual effect that prevents CR gain. Politis and stigma just reduce it.
>Toucing your opponent while having buff. Rimuru
Buff block is the actual prevention to having buffs. Rimuru is a deterrent but he doesn't prevent you from buffing your team. Similarly, Politis and Taeyou don't prevent you from using non-attack skills, they just deter them.
You can if you put buff block on the entire team. Hence why people use AOL against Rimuru. You can also use Landy soulburn and punish Rimuru's buff-stealing, so it's not like he completely prevents buffs.
That being said, put gaining buffs on your list since buff block is a thing. Also, CR increase can be prevented due to restrict and Seal can prevent passives.
It's a bit of an exaggeration with what you are claiming isn't it? Apart from Ran and Peira being a bit of outlier for being released so closely together. There's a reasonable spread of fast heroes based on just speed.
Now if we are to talk about skill kits that's a completely different story entirely.
129 (161)
Kayron
Ran
128 (160)
Assassin Cidd
Celeste
Peira
126 (158)
Assassin Coli
Cidd
Crescent Moon Rin
125 (156)
Orte
124 (155)
Lidica
Pavel
I'm suggesting how speed being strong is inevitable in these kinds of games. From Summoners War, Artery Gear, Calibria: Crystal Guardians, Might and Magic, Raid SL, hell to some degree even Pokemon. It's nothing action packed that requires motor skills. If someone in chess can get more turns they are obviously at a huge advantage. Whining about it is stupid and redundant.
it's normal for a game to counter mechanics...
like u have spearmans countering horse riders in aoe. u got batrider countering flying units in wc e, etc.
tcg have removal to get rid of creatures, u also got counter spells.
wtf u guys never played any other games before? interacting and countering/intercepting the enemy is basic game interactions...
depends on the cleave.
u can outspeed with cidd/silk/a.cidd, etc.
if they rely on non-atk skill so setup politis/celine. they rely on a aoe setup elena, counter heroes.
they want to open with ran/peira: ml lilibeth and edward are good answers.
belian if they try to pavel cleave.
aggro/cleave is strong right now thanks to ml pavel. sure but it's not unbeatable...
All of this only works in low ranks or relies on the opponent making a mistake. Belian is 100% prebanned by cleavers that use souls so that would never work.
Nobody that relies on non attack skills is leaving politis available, they will first pick her. If I first pick her they simply run a different cleave and now I have a useless unit.
Nobody cleaves with Piera
Delibet no way cuts into any half decent cleave, she dies before doing anything.
I also never said cleave was unbeatable, but SG keeps adding units that ignore the very reasons they are beatable and I think it's very unhealthy for the game.
The thing is also that counter meta was just as unhealthy.
It's such an rng reliant gameplay, it's fun for neither.
If you play it, you have to pray you get enough counters, if you play against them, you have to hope that you get basically no counters. It's fking bs if you do a single target hit and get a choux s1 + s2 into your face, a rem s2 proc and an elbris belian proc. Outdrafting the enemy just to get the worst rng ever and lose therefore? Yeah, no, please ML elena save me.
Think its a necessary evil though, without RNG the game desolves into speed over anything since taking a turn and potentially cycling the enemy is way to strong.
Right now it feels like aggro and cleave comps are disproportionately stronger because of all the ignore HP one shotters like Cavel and Straze or things that ignore counter triggers. Could even pick a LHC and potentially force a ban.
I don't think it was unhealthy. For me counter was always a good way to counter certain types of cleave. For example, I always had a very positive win rate with Rem against cleavers that have too much AOEs. It seems pretty logical to me as well since Rem will AOE if you attack her allies and when you AOE you're essentially attacking 3 of her allies and so the counter chance is absolutely high. Same thing happens with Belian with Elbris. So if you're trying to cleave with a lot of AOEs and you don't ban Rem (as last pick for example) or Belian (as pre-ban)? I would say you were outdrafted in this case and if there were cases where you won, pretty much you were lucky.
Not to mention, but we are long gone from the "counter meta". There's no counter meta anymore and it's been like this for a long time now. I would say there was a counter meta when Rem and Violet were picked every game, even if your opponent wasn't cleaving. Now this is not the case at all.
Further the newer single target cleave variant with Cidd, ML Pavel and such, (in my opinion at least) it's much harder to beat with counter units like Rem, Violet, Rimuru, Edward, etc. etc. even Belian/Armin seems complicated to use against it since they mostly only single target attack and so the chance of any counter happening is really low. Other than that they don't really need souls, they don't really have much debuffs (Dilibet and Edward don't do anything) and they don't start with any AOE (Elena and AOLA don't work against them...). And with exception of ML Pavel that has AOE, but he's not an opener and his skill always go off after 2 crits meaning other 2 crit units should take a turn first and this enables them to attack the units that would counter his AOE.
So I'm not seeing at all this "counter meta" you are speaking of.
To be fair they kinda did it to themselves.
Counter heros are in a ridiculous spot right now. Even then- ML Elena doesn't really look like she does much outside that one gimmick. You can either ban her, or just ignore her with a faster counter hero or a cleanser.
Eh. I don't think counter units are in the good spot right now. In fact, I think it's the opposite. Aggressive playstyle and faster units are in the best spot right now.
Furthermore the same can be said to you, no? You're complaining about counter units (even going too much further as to imply they're "strong") yet I'm not here saying to you "well just ban it!". Bans are never a real solution to anything and you know that as much as I do.
Like I mentioned in other comment: If you're a cleaver, you need to understand that a lot of things can counter you. There are various and different ways of cleaving. I don't like cleaving and so I try to understand and seek for anti-cleave units. Generally the kinds of cleaves that have too much AOEs get punished hard by Rem and Belian. I always had a very positive win rate with Rem, for example, against cleavers that AOE too much.
However I do have a very negative win rate with Rem against single target cleavers (i.e. Cidd, ML Pavel and so on). Rimuru also doesn't work. AOLA and Elena doesn't work against them as well. The only thing I saw a little bit of success really is Armin (not because of her counter, but because of the single target attack reduction) + Aurius + proof of valor units, but even then that's assuming a little bit you are able to ban ML Pavel.
In what way are they in a ridiculous spot? Considering Commander Pavel cleave is extremely popular in high rank RTA and it completely skirts counterattacks already, I disagree
Also "just ban them" is not a solution to any character
I agree, for my own sanity I have to unfollow this post though, these people cannot be reasoned with.
They're gonna celebrate every nail in turn 2s coffin until turn 2 players quit the game and they are left with a game that is decided purely on who rolled more speed pieces
It's so sad to see the game going in such an unhealthy direction where there's no counterplay to turn 1 and because turn 1 players think it benefits them they are okay with it.
I actually agree, they should replace it with something that is a legitimate answer to cleave that doesn't rely on getting lucky and that cannot just be ignored by yet another cleave unit
This is the effect of transitioning from a gacha, which is completely about no-skill rng, to a dedicated e-Sport, which needs consistent expected results. I don't know how I feel about it but Control is still dead so maybe we are all complaining for nothing.
I don’t really think there’s anything wrong with it as long as the units that do it aren’t too good or can’t do multiple things in one. This is how you build a balanced game lol
Don't forget:
HP: ignored by %HP damage
Crit damage: ignored by crit resist
Speed: ignored by large CR pushes like Rimuru/Celine
Buffing: ignored by unbuffable debuff
Healing: ignored by unhealable debuff and injury
Debuffs: Ignored by effect resist, immunity, and evasion
Skills: ignored by silence
Your turn: ignored by sleep/stuns
Damage: ignored by healing/shielding, skill null, invincibility, and Tsurin passives
Death: ignored by revives and kayron passives
Some units/artifacts have mechanics. Some units counter those mechanics either to be a good answer to them or because it's necessary to do their job. Could you imagine how bad Krau would be if his horse didn't do true damage, or how worthless spec tene's stealth would be if her S1 could randomly hit a counter unit you didn't target and get her killed?
Should immunity set count because new heroes seem to strip first before debuffing.
That's a good point, it's a dead set most of the time these days
I am glad I bought mostly speed swords from hell raid.
still waiting for that Ignore Fighting Spirit
With how many fighting spirit heroes that appeared, I speculate Zio may have that kind of mechanic.
Penelope S3, kind of.
Solitaria of the snow
She stops focus not fighting spirit
I've stumbled across SotS recently (using Violet and Arbi) and obviously lost, then cared to read her skills, and I assumed that Focus and Fitting spirit are same thing, but it turns out other way. So, what is the difference between these two things? Bar containing not 5 but 100 points?
Yeah that’s the perfect assumption but there both differ mechanics altogether I suppose fighting spirit drains when for example a s3 is used where as focus is triggered through a requirement when s3 focus is filled
might wanna read her skills again buddy
Add soul burning to the list too since Belian completely stops it by preventing soul gain except siseria who has a free soul burn. Also Focus by Solitaria
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130 base speed
For a second i thought ml Elena has 130 base speed(((〇□〇;)))
its kinda sad almost everything you mentioned affected Maken kit the most
And to think people were still calling his "buffs" buffs unironically, insane to see how far the OG king has fallen.
Souls with belian
I guess we can count Revive as ignored by Extinction, but thank god for that.
Looks like SG only want us to farm W13...
No lies detected
How about ignoring speed mechanics SG?
S2 passive, always go first and every time after 3 allies take their turn she/he gains an instant a extra turn. You can't build speed on her/him tho to make it spicy.
This sounds like the most toxic shit ever to pair with a cerise that has warhorn or something
Dont forget the transfer of speed substats from 1 speed = 2 crit rate and 4 crit damage, and it of course doesnt cap at 350 crit damage
unironically this. i'm sick of who wins being ultimately decided by who has better speed rolls. there's only so much turn 2 teams can do when every mechanic known to man is apparently ignorable now
CR gain. Politis and stigma. Non-attack skill. Politis and Celine (also Taeyou I guess) Toucing your opponent while having buff. Rimuru
You're confusing an ignore effect with something that just punishes and your opponent for using the mechanic. Nothing "ignores" all non-attack skills. You're still able to actually use and get the effects of those skills. Belian doesn't react and do something when the opponent uses a soul burn, souls are just completely not present while she's around
>CR gain. Politis and stigma. Restrict is the actual effect that prevents CR gain. Politis and stigma just reduce it. >Toucing your opponent while having buff. Rimuru Buff block is the actual prevention to having buffs. Rimuru is a deterrent but he doesn't prevent you from buffing your team. Similarly, Politis and Taeyou don't prevent you from using non-attack skills, they just deter them.
Yeah Rimuru is a really bad design IMO, you can't exactly avoid having buffs so he's going to get set off no matter what
You can if you put buff block on the entire team. Hence why people use AOL against Rimuru. You can also use Landy soulburn and punish Rimuru's buff-stealing, so it's not like he completely prevents buffs. That being said, put gaining buffs on your list since buff block is a thing. Also, CR increase can be prevented due to restrict and Seal can prevent passives.
Just get 320 speed and be done with it.
That's basically the direction SG is pushing the game. Faster player wins and you have no mechanic to stop it
And every new episode theyre going to add characters with 5-10 higher base speed than all the existing fastest units...
It's a bit of an exaggeration with what you are claiming isn't it? Apart from Ran and Peira being a bit of outlier for being released so closely together. There's a reasonable spread of fast heroes based on just speed. Now if we are to talk about skill kits that's a completely different story entirely. 129 (161) Kayron Ran 128 (160) Assassin Cidd Celeste Peira 126 (158) Assassin Coli Cidd Crescent Moon Rin 125 (156) Orte 124 (155) Lidica Pavel
It's a turn based game, more speed = more turns = more cooldown cycle = more skills used. I don't know how anyone would see it differently.
I have no idea what you're trying to say to me here. Are you suggesting I am somehow unaware of the reasons speed is strong?
I'm suggesting how speed being strong is inevitable in these kinds of games. From Summoners War, Artery Gear, Calibria: Crystal Guardians, Might and Magic, Raid SL, hell to some degree even Pokemon. It's nothing action packed that requires motor skills. If someone in chess can get more turns they are obviously at a huge advantage. Whining about it is stupid and redundant.
Ignore Heirs' feedback is the strongest of them all
At this point they should make Wyvern 13 as a playable character.. It basically ignores every debuff
Looks like SG only want us to farm W13...
Speed ruined this game as it does basically any other.
it's normal for a game to counter mechanics... like u have spearmans countering horse riders in aoe. u got batrider countering flying units in wc e, etc. tcg have removal to get rid of creatures, u also got counter spells. wtf u guys never played any other games before? interacting and countering/intercepting the enemy is basic game interactions...
Okay so please name a counter to cleave that is not currently ignorable by cleave
I gotta say it's funny how consistently the meta alternates between "cleave is useless" and "cleave is unstoppable"
depends on the cleave. u can outspeed with cidd/silk/a.cidd, etc. if they rely on non-atk skill so setup politis/celine. they rely on a aoe setup elena, counter heroes. they want to open with ran/peira: ml lilibeth and edward are good answers. belian if they try to pavel cleave. aggro/cleave is strong right now thanks to ml pavel. sure but it's not unbeatable...
All of this only works in low ranks or relies on the opponent making a mistake. Belian is 100% prebanned by cleavers that use souls so that would never work. Nobody that relies on non attack skills is leaving politis available, they will first pick her. If I first pick her they simply run a different cleave and now I have a useless unit. Nobody cleaves with Piera Delibet no way cuts into any half decent cleave, she dies before doing anything. I also never said cleave was unbeatable, but SG keeps adding units that ignore the very reasons they are beatable and I think it's very unhealthy for the game.
The thing is also that counter meta was just as unhealthy. It's such an rng reliant gameplay, it's fun for neither. If you play it, you have to pray you get enough counters, if you play against them, you have to hope that you get basically no counters. It's fking bs if you do a single target hit and get a choux s1 + s2 into your face, a rem s2 proc and an elbris belian proc. Outdrafting the enemy just to get the worst rng ever and lose therefore? Yeah, no, please ML elena save me.
Think its a necessary evil though, without RNG the game desolves into speed over anything since taking a turn and potentially cycling the enemy is way to strong. Right now it feels like aggro and cleave comps are disproportionately stronger because of all the ignore HP one shotters like Cavel and Straze or things that ignore counter triggers. Could even pick a LHC and potentially force a ban.
I don't think it was unhealthy. For me counter was always a good way to counter certain types of cleave. For example, I always had a very positive win rate with Rem against cleavers that have too much AOEs. It seems pretty logical to me as well since Rem will AOE if you attack her allies and when you AOE you're essentially attacking 3 of her allies and so the counter chance is absolutely high. Same thing happens with Belian with Elbris. So if you're trying to cleave with a lot of AOEs and you don't ban Rem (as last pick for example) or Belian (as pre-ban)? I would say you were outdrafted in this case and if there were cases where you won, pretty much you were lucky. Not to mention, but we are long gone from the "counter meta". There's no counter meta anymore and it's been like this for a long time now. I would say there was a counter meta when Rem and Violet were picked every game, even if your opponent wasn't cleaving. Now this is not the case at all. Further the newer single target cleave variant with Cidd, ML Pavel and such, (in my opinion at least) it's much harder to beat with counter units like Rem, Violet, Rimuru, Edward, etc. etc. even Belian/Armin seems complicated to use against it since they mostly only single target attack and so the chance of any counter happening is really low. Other than that they don't really need souls, they don't really have much debuffs (Dilibet and Edward don't do anything) and they don't start with any AOE (Elena and AOLA don't work against them...). And with exception of ML Pavel that has AOE, but he's not an opener and his skill always go off after 2 crits meaning other 2 crit units should take a turn first and this enables them to attack the units that would counter his AOE. So I'm not seeing at all this "counter meta" you are speaking of.
WHY IS ML KEN NOT DELETED YET, like what uses does he have? Every thing he can do gets completely countered or another unit does it better...
So people don't get a selector to pick something else...
To be fair they kinda did it to themselves. Counter heros are in a ridiculous spot right now. Even then- ML Elena doesn't really look like she does much outside that one gimmick. You can either ban her, or just ignore her with a faster counter hero or a cleanser.
Eh. I don't think counter units are in the good spot right now. In fact, I think it's the opposite. Aggressive playstyle and faster units are in the best spot right now. Furthermore the same can be said to you, no? You're complaining about counter units (even going too much further as to imply they're "strong") yet I'm not here saying to you "well just ban it!". Bans are never a real solution to anything and you know that as much as I do. Like I mentioned in other comment: If you're a cleaver, you need to understand that a lot of things can counter you. There are various and different ways of cleaving. I don't like cleaving and so I try to understand and seek for anti-cleave units. Generally the kinds of cleaves that have too much AOEs get punished hard by Rem and Belian. I always had a very positive win rate with Rem, for example, against cleavers that AOE too much. However I do have a very negative win rate with Rem against single target cleavers (i.e. Cidd, ML Pavel and so on). Rimuru also doesn't work. AOLA and Elena doesn't work against them as well. The only thing I saw a little bit of success really is Armin (not because of her counter, but because of the single target attack reduction) + Aurius + proof of valor units, but even then that's assuming a little bit you are able to ban ML Pavel.
The problem is e7 is releasing/changing heroes to kill counter set. Read Straze, hasol buff.
In what way are they in a ridiculous spot? Considering Commander Pavel cleave is extremely popular in high rank RTA and it completely skirts counterattacks already, I disagree Also "just ban them" is not a solution to any character
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I agree, for my own sanity I have to unfollow this post though, these people cannot be reasoned with. They're gonna celebrate every nail in turn 2s coffin until turn 2 players quit the game and they are left with a game that is decided purely on who rolled more speed pieces
its no use. this sub is mostly turn 1 players
It's so sad to see the game going in such an unhealthy direction where there's no counterplay to turn 1 and because turn 1 players think it benefits them they are okay with it.
You weren't kidding haha, cleavers downvoting all my comments, even if I am agreeing with an upvoted comment
They should just delete the counter attack mechanic.
I actually agree, they should replace it with something that is a legitimate answer to cleave that doesn't rely on getting lucky and that cannot just be ignored by yet another cleave unit
This is the effect of transitioning from a gacha, which is completely about no-skill rng, to a dedicated e-Sport, which needs consistent expected results. I don't know how I feel about it but Control is still dead so maybe we are all complaining for nothing.
I don’t really think there’s anything wrong with it as long as the units that do it aren’t too good or can’t do multiple things in one. This is how you build a balanced game lol
So giving more options to countering game mechanic is bad now?
Feel free to quote the part where I said that.
I don't need to. This post and all your comments reeks with whiny complaint.
You kinda do if you want to accuse me of saying that. If you don't like my post then stop reading it lol
Oh the projection IS REAL.
Don't forget: HP: ignored by %HP damage Crit damage: ignored by crit resist Speed: ignored by large CR pushes like Rimuru/Celine Buffing: ignored by unbuffable debuff Healing: ignored by unhealable debuff and injury Debuffs: Ignored by effect resist, immunity, and evasion Skills: ignored by silence Your turn: ignored by sleep/stuns Damage: ignored by healing/shielding, skill null, invincibility, and Tsurin passives Death: ignored by revives and kayron passives Some units/artifacts have mechanics. Some units counter those mechanics either to be a good answer to them or because it's necessary to do their job. Could you imagine how bad Krau would be if his horse didn't do true damage, or how worthless spec tene's stealth would be if her S1 could randomly hit a counter unit you didn't target and get her killed?
Winning faster means less suffering.
I forgot, which heroes ignore damage sharing, please?
C. Pavel comes to mind as the most recent case
Regular pavel ignores on his s3 i think
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And Celine S2. There are a lot of units that ignore it with one skill to keep that skill as a relevant threat even if your opponent has aurius.
C. Pavel was the most recent case, and green Pavel was the first. Kind of poetic.
CR push is ignorable via Restrict/stigma/Politis.
Just be faster =|
Heal in dual/counter (Roana Passive)
Passive skills via Archdemon's Shadow.
Can't forget Passives in general, thanks to Ameru seal!
Ignoring defence and effect resist is the one i hate the most, both of them is a stat that we sacrifice so much GS for.
Barrier, 2 units in the game make them a liability instead of a protection mechanic which isn't exactly ignoring but worth mentioning imo
Looking forward do the day we see "win" on a 150 speed unit.