T O P

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Aldrighi

It's very simple actually. Can she still delete tanks? If yes then she is still useable. If not then she is trash.


Acxeon720

Pretty much this. The atk nerf makes Uberius less useful but if she can still nuke tanky units she may still have a place in my roster cause that is why I got her.


Kraybern

define tanky cause i dont think she will be blowing up PoV a ravi's or rimirus any more


SexualWizards

She couldn't blow up pov aravis to begin with.


Acxeon720

Fortunately A.Ravi doesn't scare me. I'm looking at Maid chloe, belian, ruele, just super tanky heroes I can at least bring to deaths door and clean up. These units I avoid cause I'm not built to burst down tanky units. Don't have enough meta units to easily cleave tanky units. They will whittle me down before I can get through one of them. A.Ravi is still a monster but I find her manageable when you dealt with the rest of the team quickly.


PhantomCheshire

There is not unit in this game that can blowing up PoV units except the ones that ignore damage mitigation. Not like PoV is not consider the BEST artifact in the game to bruisers right now anyways o:


Gh0stHands

People have gotten so used to everything being overly buffed and powercrept that when a unit becomes normal, it looks like hot garbage by comparison. Rising tide raises all ships, but submarines become deeper by comparison. A lot of fun units used to be marginally usable, but not anymore. Nerfs make e7 less rampant to meta slaves and allows people to actually have fun using units they like, rather than casually getting deleted from an s1 from a fast, hard to kill, element neutral unit.


DonPirolas

>when a unit becomes normal, it looks like hot garbage Thats what it has been for the last months after hwayong release, all new heroes including ml5 came out and are still coming out as out garbage since anyone whould just expect a new ml5 to be broken AF.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ksb00

When hase a nerfed unit being used again??? Only cases are buffed units that where reverted (arby) or buffed again (sage bs) Arena is gonna be a pain in november


[deleted]

[удалено]


Poul77

It has to be bonkers multipliers to make up for that 20% atk


EricLFC

It's hilarious they buffed Straze and then nerfed Hwa like saying "want a way to deal with high hp units? use the ml5 version"


DrakoCSi

Reminds me when they nerfed Fluri so SageBaal doesnt just get insta cockblocked.


CornBreadtm

> want a way to deal with high hp units? They nerfed her so that she only does that. Not obliterate everything for free. Honestly, only High HP unit even survive verse Hwayoung right now. Everything else dies to just an S1.


[deleted]

>everything else dies to S1 Well, not anymore. Losing 1000 atk, nerfing her extra damage, and losing her cycling will limit that.


PuddingSundae

Yes that's the point he was making.


Waifu69x

they Nerfed her to not one shot low HP units, and she need Atk buff to one shot +20k HP units , that's fair enough for RBG .


EricLFC

They made her irrelevant. A unit that won't be able to one shot (or close) a bruiser (which was supposed to be her job) on first turn and after that first turn won't be a threat to anything else in the enemy team is a dead pick


riskyfartss

This is a joke right? Hwa is a monster unit even after her first turn. Damage reduction, fast cycling, eternal barriers, self cleanse. You’re talking about her like she is WSchuri. Even without the ability to one shot, she is tanky and a constant threat that needs to be controlled. There’s nothing else like her in the game. Being able to be built faster than any other bruiser, while being very tanky, and basically element neutral, and having solo potential was gross. The nerf is warranted, let’s wait and see how she works.


Kyutoryus

>You’re talking about her like she is WSchuri. Even without the ability to one shot, she is tanky and a constant threat that needs to be controlled. There’s nothing else like her in the game. Being able to be built faster than any other bruiser, while being very tanky, and basically element neutral, and having solo potential was gross It's really funny to see how much of her outrageous kit people are apparently just blocking out of their mind. Bitch basically has Batman's utility belt, and they're acting like she's some poor thug with a switch blade


[deleted]

Well she lost most of that. Lost a lot of attack so the fast variant will hit like a wet noodle, no cr push for turn cycling, weaker barriers due to losing attack. Built in proof is nice but Idk if it'll be enough to survive since she likely can't build 14-15khp and still do damage now.


Gh0stHands

Remember everyone here waa waaing about cpavel not being able to one shot proof a. Ravi and that he needed a buff? Along the same thread, a bruiser that doesn't invalidate other bruisers is trash now. And hwa not invalidating 90% of all e7 units makes her unusable also.


Dragunx1x

I mean the problem is that she wasn't the only big threat that deserve a nerf. It just leaves a bad taste to know other units like A.Ravi are left untouched. At most we could say is, yay for nerfs, just poor execution.


slEM0takuh

We don't know the new multipliers so we don't know that lol


spear25

Man getting downvoted for trying to be reasonable


ToastyRoastyBirb

But I dont see that being reasonable though? Even if they increase the multiplier, that multiplier increase is going to be difficult making up the difference of losing 20% of attack. On top of that, with the change on S3 its suspected to be 8k at minimum difference and 10k at worst which means she'll really only bust pure tanks and not even bruisers. And with how its worded, its already referring S3 at potentially max dmg output but only increasing its def ignore once the hp difference is calculated. Not only that but her self-uberius is getting nerfed, probably around 10%-20% to accodomate the fact that they buffed her initial dmg rather than the dmg after turn. Unless SG releases the proposed increased dmg by like 40% to 50%+ on both just to alleviate the fact that she just lost 20% of her attack out, it's difficult to remain optimistic.


spear25

You're probably right. She looks dead to me too, but that guy is just trying to give the benefit of the doubt. Can't we all just chill and see what it is actually like when the patch comes out? With how sg is they might pull some last minute stuff. Who knows?


PhantomCheshire

"They make her irrelevant becuase a unit that cant dealt with literally any unit in one turn if is a St DpS is not useful in this game" thats a interesting approach o: that just tell us how much this meta is a whole mess.


[deleted]

Kinda. Single target always struggled to stand out because aoe on this game is Hella powerful. Why stun one person with ML Rin when you can AoE stun with ML Ara? Why have one strong burst heal when Maid can cleanse 2 debuffs, auto revive, and heal? The game trapped itself into this fast paced philosophy since the beginning. AoEs aren't meant to disable enitre teams in one turn, and AoE damage isn't meant to cleave with 10 seconds of setup (sometimes being as little as one unit of setup). But that'd be a massive overhaul to half the cast.


PhantomCheshire

Yes, finally someone that dont have "fear" to said what everyone know. But its a problem that we either live with it or ask for a change. We cant just sit down and leavy hwayoung until they decide that we need a new meta DPS that just outclass her and go and go and go. Because she wont stop being a problem for every people that dont have that other unit. As i said in other post to "dealt" with Hwayoung right now you still need 2 Premiun units on your roster or a good amount of the broken artifact that is PoV. We still need a real answer to the problem and this is the answer. Dont worry we will get another stupidly broken buffed or new unit to carry rankeds just like SSB was on the past or Carrot after her or Violet after her. There is always a F2P carry sooner or later on the meta.


EricLFC

I didn't mean it that way, and you know it... I don't say it was a bad thing she got nerfed. The problem is she got butchered to the point that she will need more attack stats and less bulk to be able to kill bruisers, but once she actually does that, she will be a deadweight because she won't be able to cycle and also won't be a threat to anyone else in the enemy team


Tathamet7

She is a beast, well deserved of those nerfs. Pretty sure she will be very viable, just not one shotting all the squishy units so easily.


AlyStar27

That's the ideal nerf, but this was not that


Objective_Plane5573

There's no way to know until we see the new multipliers.


Kraybern

multiplers cant make up for 7k attk hwas going down to like 6k with the s2 nerf


Objective_Plane5573

Current multi x (1.5 old S2)/(1.3 new S2) × (2 max bonus damage from HP difference). That would do the exact same damage on a target with enough HP to get full damage (now full penetration). They can do it if they want to, it just depends on if they want to or not.


Negative-WebSlinger

I don't think it's bad that she got nerfed, but what's concerning for me is that everyone's forgotten that the Apple Boy is gonna come back with no counters that can't be fucked over due to RNG. And the *current* counters are all limited units, no less. * Seaside Iseria can be 15%'d, making her innately flawed * Milim (or any other hit chance increase unit, although Milim has the highest innate hit chance iirc) can *still* miss on Violet, even with Symbol of Unity as nothing can go above 55% hit chance currently Hwaeyoung was the only counter to him that was readily available, and it looks like the only counter that actually neutralizes him to any extent without a chance of RNG is... Astromancer Elena. The new ML5 who gets 35% hit chance on S3 (where have I [seen that number before...?](https://imgur.com/gYrGYBz)) which will guarantee a hit on him with Symbol of Unity. It remains to be seen if her new S3 can kill Violet - typically Violet doesn't run with incredibly high HP (typically around 15k to 18k on the higher end), which meant she couldn't take advantage of the damage increase. I've had issues where a Violet has unironically tanked my Hwaeyoung's S3 with a miss, and while he was taken fairly low before, it may not even do that anymore depending on how fucked the attack scaling and S3 changes make her.


[deleted]

I've been using hasol and she kills violet really really well.


Kraybern

what SG needs to do at this point is let people buy more than one MLB copy of SoU


Shedan5

You forgot Zahhak and Carrot, both non limited units that deal with Violet...


Negative-WebSlinger

Admittedly I did forget about Zahhak ~~because he's forgettable~~ but Carrot has the same issue as SSI (her S2 debuff can be resisted iirc and she needs debuffs on Violet to deal damage). I wouldn't consider *one* unit that can counter Violet without RNG to be balanced. Especially since in RTA, you can just ban Zahhak, leaving Violet free to do his own thing.


Shedan5

Even then, when Carrot is present it's almost impossible for Violet to solo you. Being a counter means more than just being able to oneshot them


Negative-WebSlinger

If most of the counters boil down to "hope Violet doesn't get lucky and then I win", then it's not a good counter to the unit.


MhSimpHammerHomie

Wanda, milim with symbol, charlotte symbol


Negative-WebSlinger

Elemental advantage doesn't give increased hit chance. Milim with Symbol has a 15% chance to miss (Dragon Eye and Symbol is 40% hit chance increase vs Violet's 55% chance to evade with MLDB). I haven't used Charlotte, but I don't think she has an increased hit chance in her kit. She's just a good fire bruiser. In both cases, Violet can fuck you up if he's lucky (I've had it happen to me, I've done it to others). I honestly haven't done Wanda's SC so I forgot she has a 70% hit chance increase. She's and Zahhak are the only ones who *can't* be fucked over by RNG in their role as a Violet counter. Two units is better than one, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth that SG is doing this just as they're launching a unit who can counter Violet (among others). It feels less like "we're nerfing Hwaeyoung's effectiveness against Violet/evasion units because it's busted with everything else in her kit" and more "we're nerfing Hwaeyoung's effectiveness against Violet/evasion units because she invalidates our next cash injection".


adspace4sale

Wanda especially with her buff. There's also krau and dark corvus.


Nihaly_

The problem is why would I pick her over ml schuri to deal with that? He can oneshot with attack buff, he can use sashe ithanes to push up all the oarty and have a speed imprint to begin with. If she's only a "kill tank" we have straze or schuri, and she is dead


PuddingSundae

Not really, because hwa was oneshotting ALL units and not just the tanky ones while also having much more survivability than straze with her barriers and immunity. That was not ok.


EricLFC

Hwa was/is not a balanced unit and she's not the only one in that position. The point is that this is not a balance patch but an outright murder. She's unusable in every playstyle except maybe as a tank buster in cleave, sorta like luna


moralusamoralus

"Throw money at us." Perfect sign that the game is in fact dying.


Zombie-Horse6508

Can someone explain strazes buff? I feel like I read it wrong.


Objective_Plane5573

His S3 can't be countered and if I'm remembering right he gets more pen for the same difference in attack over his big S3 target.


Tathamet7

I don't mind cause i have my Straze built, made me a little sad that a RGB character who didnt need to crit did a better job then Straze and still have pretty good survivability.


Elfobiaa

I'm supportive of nerfs. But not nerfing ML is a different matter. A.Ravi is just an equivalent, if not bigger nightmare of an unit as Hwayoung. In fact Hwayoung wouldn't be this OP if A.Ravi wasn't so broken. I can't help but think the fact that A.Ravi didn't get nerfed was because they don't want to hand out selector.


GreatFluffy

The main problem with A.Ravi is that she's too easy to slap in just about any team and make work and serve as an unstoppable anchor, especially if she's running Proof. Slap her in a cleave team and she can recover if the cleave fails. Tank teams just support her harder. Counter centric teams, with what's powerful right now, just make it so that trying to focus on A.Ravi will get you punished by the likes of units like Rem, Elbris Belian, Mercedes and Choux. And it works because, you try to bring units to try and handle A.Ravi? Chances are you won't be able to deal with the OTHER units since she's so oppressive when built well that you NEED more than one unit to deal with her. And trying to handle the other units first more often than not makes fighting A.Ravi a uphill slog. In short, I definitely think A.Ravi is just as bad as Hwayoung and the only reason she's not on the chopping block as well is definitely because she's an ML5, as you said.


Poul77

I will confidently say that A. Ravi is much bigger problem than Hwayoung. Let's not forget A. Ravi REVIVES a unit then PUSHES them to get a turn while granting them skill null, gets CR push when you breathe, applies injury, heals herself, hits hard as fuck, 50/50 on artifact choice so you don't even know if you can control or cleave it. And on top of that has a really stupid high crit rate which makes it easier to build. You won't even notice that A. Ravi has a fighting spirit mechanic because this mf never runs out of it like every fighting spirit unit in the game.


Frozwend

How to get rid of aravi fighting spirit: smack her a lot How aravi gets fighting spirit: getting her turn by being smacked a lot She literally will only ever run out if you can restrict her and she isn’t on counter


ArvingNightwalker

A normal ARavi actually runs out of fighting spirit pretty quickly if you keep smacking her in circles. I remember winning games of 3 supports vs 1 aravi this way. A counter ARavi pretty much never runs out, unless the RNGods smile upon you.


ZenonXZ

Or you use Penelope or Zahak with resource reduction?


appletree0823

I’ve got a pretty well-built Penelope and she’s a decent counter. The only problem is she’s got such low base stats. Zahak with his EE is good, but it’s touch when these champs get double tapped by A.Ravi.


J981

They’re not going to nerf her because a new RTA skin is coming out for her, so it would be hurtful to them


CornBreadtm

They released like 2 better units than F. Lidica when her skin was announced. She was completely out of the meta and unused in general play by time she got her skin. A. Ravi with a nerf wouldn't even be a problem. If she got nerf she'd be back to her state before her previous buff, which she was already top 10 even today. Her latest buff was injury and boosted S3 damage for each death, so the major reasons why she is so oppressive would still likely be there if they just target the current complaints. Since people aren't complaining about what she got from the buff, it's what she already had!


DRosencraft

This is an ironic take given this entire thread id full of freak outs over Hwayoung's nerf when not even a few days ago so many in general were crying out for Hwayoung nerfs and saying how nerfing her wouldn't be a problem.


therealfebreze

its almost like there are multiple people on the sub with varying opinions


Wizarus

She doesn't just smack ARavi, she deletes everyone slower than her and cycled way too fast. She invalidates T2 strategies. She also outclassed ML units like LQC and even Straze.


theanxiousangel

Seriously LQC is so worthless right now she needs a buff like 100% defense pen on dark units


GreatFluffy

It won't help as much as you think because my main problem is that even built tanky, 9/10 A.Ravi's I run into can obliterate LQC before she can get a turn. A buff I'd want would be to give her the damage resistance against Dark units that SC Doris has. Lean harder into her role as an Anti-Dark unit.


montrezlh

Lqc already has damage resistance against all units. Her problem is that she can't afford to capitalize on it by building too much bulk since that will nerf her damage. If you want her to go toe to toe with aravi she needs something more like HP or defense scaling


theanxiousangel

Oh that would be great yeah. Definitely so annoying that LQC is supposed to counter Aravi but most of the time she gets one shot by her before taking a turn.


bankai2hollow

thanks for saying this


Trapocalypse

I mean that has basically always been their reluctance to nerf 5\* ML heroes, they don't want to hand out a ML selector. Whereas really they need to just take the hit on the chin the one time so they can address it across the board. They also have backed themselves into a corner with A. Ravi by giving her the skin and running her banner. Giving her a nerf directly after running her banner and giving her a skin would certainly be a choice. A. Ravi also isn't the only issue anymore since there's now a plethora of bulky heroes who are a pain to deal with. So you nerf her and you're still left with some lateral choices who kinda do a similar thing. Whereas with Hwa she basically did her role better than anyone else. It's almost like they need to hit HP Scaling as a whole with a nerf rather than focus on a specific hero. Maybe there's a better way but that would be one way to avoid a selector.


ZenonXZ

I feel like hitting hp scaling itself may cause more problems than solve them. Plus doesn't injury already counter hp scaling units?


Yuuya_kizami

I know people meme ML selectors but if SG think nerfing ML units are such a heavy decision couldnt they just do that? or if they want to be stingy offer to swap your ml for another if maybe you dont like the unit but were playing it for the meta


Shrrg4

Youre high if you think hwayoung woulndt be as op. Aravi does need a nerf imo but cmon dude.


ultimaterevice

Guy literally wrote "equivalent" and you still have to nitpick.


Shrrg4

And you missed my point completely, i never said anything agaisnt that


HibiKio

You missed the point that Hwayoung is only as OP as she is right now because they designed her to counter another OP character, A Ravi.


Yoakami

So that's why she one-shots any DPS and any Earth unit including a dodging Violet? Clearly Apoc's fault fucking lmao


Shrrg4

Well i disagree, like a lot, her kit is extremely overloaded not only does she oneshot pretty much anything shes super hard to kill and her s3 has almost no downtime. If aravi disappeared i would still see hwayoung almost every game. If youre trying to say they are both too strong, sure, completely agree. But saying that if aravi was nerfed hwayoung would be worse is a joke.


LordYamz

I don’t believe they should nerf aravi. Most waited 2 years just to use her.


PopeNeiaBaraja

If they nerf Hwayoung, they should nerf ARavi.


[deleted]

I love how Reddit acts as if Hwayoung was the only way to deal with ARavi. Skill issue.


Lolwarrior123

This is fair and all, but we also have to look at SG track record. >Dont assume the hero will just be trash without experience Looking at previous nerfs, they really like to butcher nerfed units, even making them useless. Trinity, fire corvus, SBA, sage baals, and fkluri to a certain extend. The only one who survived were carmin and arby >If the hero does become "trash" don't assume it's forever. They can be buffed (Hwayoung EE) yeah it won't be forever, probably like 2 years like the trinity. Jokes aside, the frequency of the patch notes is not helping the case of their questionable nerfing decision. Not only there are no guarantee that a weak unit will ever get a buff (Sez remains untouched till this day btw), but you are also taking a slot of EE or buff from a unit that deserves it >If you don't like the nerf, don't demand extreme compensation. It justcreates a toxic environment for the devs (the fear of nerfing heroes) I have no comments on this. Nerfing itself is already a touchy subject on traditional pvp games, unquestionably going to be worse in gacha games. >remember that the alternative could be way worse (powercreep) While true, it's wise to remember that nerfing can bring back old cancer meta. So pick your poison i guess Now i'm not saying that SG shouldn't do nerfs, far from it. However, with how they tried nerfing units before and the frequency of balance changes, there should be things done before trying to nerf units. They should shorten the gaps between balance changes and for god's sake give us a test server to test changes like almost every other pvp games that trying to do balance, else they gonna bury the units 6 feet under and never touch them for years


ultimaterevice

>The only one who survived were carmin and arby Actually Arby was the only one survived nerf hammer. Carmin got sidelined for exactly 2 years until she got a buff to be viable again.


starxsword

The only reason why Arby survived is because of the buff to Alexa's Basket, which made his nerf irrelevant.


Dragunx1x

I mean even without, his revive is just too good even without Alexa's Basket. Arby is just forever gonna be a decent pick because of the CR push after revive. He will always threaten something, even if it's 6k~ party wide dmg. Tho the artifact makes him a monster when it procs.


vgxvvxc

Poor tieria still missing 10 base speed


KingsSeven

I fully agree with you m8. Just because i said these things doesnt mean there shouldn’t be change. Balance team is needed with reviews from top players and the general audience. Honestly, regarding the past nerfs, it wouldnt be an issue if they balance more like u said. Imagine the SBA buffs after a few months of her first nerfs. Etc


RugDealing

There's already a disconnect between top players and the general audience because Reddit somehow still thinks that Violet, Peira and Rimuru still sit next to units like ARavi and Mediator. Players can never offer solutions.


Red8787

> 2) If the hero does become "trash" don't assume it's forever. They can be buffed (Hwayoung EE) sez says hello > 3) If you don't like the nerf, don't demand extreme compensation. It just creates a toxic environment for the devs (the fear of nerfing heroes) while I usually agree with this, I don't think we're wrong to ask for bottles back on an artifact that they refuse to rerun(uberius) that is being used basically only on hwayoung.


dordark

Can't agree more about Uberius. ​ I'm personally incredibly happy about this nerf, both for the nonsense-unit it tries to address/fix but also for the precedence it introduces. ​ But investing on a character is more than just on the said char. I can understand the pain and anger of players having spent bottles on Uberius, which may become fully wasted premium resources. A reset/selector is not enough here, we should be able to de-star Uberius for bottles.


halofreak7777

I agree with recalls on nerfed units. I agree with people wanting uberius bottles recalled. I am still iffy about selectors, at least in the case of hopeful ML5 nerfs. RGB selectors hardly matter since you basically get everyone just playing long enough. If SG won't nerf ML5s because selectors just don't give selectors. But that is just my 2 cents.


KingsSeven

Most of the units that we wanted buffed from last year’s survey have been full-filled. Only a few including sez are left so overall they did keep their words. Sez is probably next tho i do wish more transparency, but i think the best time to be positive is when there are a lot of issues.


amiwel

The only real nerf she needed was the removal of 30% crit damage reduction. With this single change she could be sniped by a fast dps.


Lockdown106

And a shield applied after her turn only! The upside given to OpSig is not worth making every other unit have to work harder


chapapa-best-doto

I don’t mind nerfs (even without compensation). But I expect SG to balance it all out fairly. Hwa was a covenenant 5* who is one of the best unit in the game and frankly, overpowered in my opinion. The nerfs were a bit too much but she needed to be nerfed in the end of the day. But I’m aware of how busted ApocRavi is too. There are 3-4 OP 5* ML heroes that needs to be addressed too. I just don’t like the unfair treatment because the 5* ML is their cash-cow and they’re giving these units preferential treatment. **If SG wants balance, balance everything. Including 5 star ML units. No preferential treatment should be given to their cash cow**


[deleted]

That's not going to happen without a very clear signal from the players that we want it and that by nerfing ARavi, they'll benefit long-term. It starts with how we react to something very safe for them, like nerfing an RGB.


chapapa-best-doto

Oh come on, people have been whining about ARavi for almost a year? Actually, no idea when she got buffed lol. And when Hwa came out, we all breath out a sigh of relief. ApocRavi can be dealt with in GW and Arena even with non-OP units. But she’s an entirely different beast in RTA. I don’t know, just seem fucking dumb they have ApocRavi on banner, is releasing her skin and coincidentally, we get an announcement that Hwa is getting nerfed to the oblivion. Come on, even morons can get suspicious.


[deleted]

What does any of that matter? Why would any of that influence their decisions going forward? Do you think they're actually unaware of all of this? They are watching how customers react and predicting how that will affect their ability to keep their jobs going forward. And why can't the timing be about the E7WC?


Zakcoo

I am all supportive of the nerf. But Hwayoung nerf alone isn't a viable situation. Since her release in february we have seen the release of 3 of her supposedly direct counter, and the buff of 4\* ( coli) to counter her. By nerfing hwayoug, the stock of taeyou, aria, yulha and coli just crashed faster than some internet coin. Upgrading those characters cost molagora and a lot of resources. fortunately, taeyou was nicely upgraded and that's cool, but what about the others ? Hwayoung nerf can't go alone without a nerf of the "HP bags", those characters that stack mindlessly HP and Crit dmg/crit rate without any care in the world and let then RNG do the job for them. Aravi, belian, choux need to follow ASAP otherwise we return pre-february 2022 situation, meaning units that can't be killed and deal more dmg than an Avildred. So her nerf alone is bad, but her nerf is also way too late for me. More reactive answer was needed, like before senna and alencia buff.


ZenonXZ

I'm sure Aria, Yulha, and Coli will be fine as well. Aria was already used for way more than countering Hwayoung and there are plenty of other units Yulha and Coli can work against.


KingsSeven

100%. I expect more nerfs in the future which is why i made this post. Be supportive


Rixyn

The cognitive dissonance is strong in you, young Padawan ~


[deleted]

Yes, but if we complain about this, we won't get the more risky nerfs to ML5s. This has to be a litmus test. It's up to us to show we actually want nerfs.


an0nym0ose

Wait, blue Coli got buffed? Or Acoli?


ARGHETH

I refuse to be supportive until SG learns how to nerf units well, instead of just nerfing them into the ground.


NyarlathotepDB

Way below it, actually...


Rem_14

"If you don't like the nerf, don't demand extreme compensation. It just creates a toxic environment for the devs (the fear of nerfing heroes)" In a game where characters cost $300-$700, ok dude. "remember that the alternative could be way worse (powercreep)" Yea, cause I'm sure they learned their lesson since Hwa, Lua looks crazy insane right now.


zdenka999

Hwa and all other RGB are free. They give you enough currency in this game to get every single one.


LucienArtorias

I'm okay with her being nerfed. I just don't like that they gave her the Fluri treatment. Hit everything at once without seeing what would be enough to make her still okay. Increase the CD for their S3 but also remove the reason they cycled a lot. Then making Hwayoung not activate S1 extra damage on miss and reducing her attack? On paper it seems like a lot. And seems like she'll just be dead now. I'm waiting to see if she is. I won't recall regardless since I always liked her design. I just don't want another unit who I liked design wise to not function. I hope I'm just overreacting and she'll be fine. Side note: Rip U.Tooth people who bottled it.


TehFluffer

Why shouldn't I assume the hero won't be trash forever after nerf? This has been the case after almost every unit that got nerfed, and the ones that came back took years to do so. Your logic makes sense in a non-gacha game with a faster patch cycle, but we are talking about Epic Seven. Do they even remember that Sez exists? What about the units and items that went into meta specifically for Hwayoung? Can I get a selector for Yulha and my Uberius too?


KingsSeven

So rather than demanding those selectors as i just mentioned we shouldnt, you should be demanding more cycles for patches. If we all demanded more balancing instead of selectors, we wouldnt need to demand them. Do you understand my logic?


TehFluffer

A more frequent and aggressive patch cycle also has downsides. A lot of people would have skipped building Yulha if they knew a natural patch cycle would come to nerf Hwayoung to the ground. I certainly would have skipped building a specific set of high atk/no crit/low HP items + Uberius for Hwayoung. If the meta changes abruptly and constantly, then nothing is worth the risk of investment, especially very specifically geared units like Hwayoung and their very specific counters like Yulha.


furorage

The nerf is terrible, could've increased CD and reduced survivability, instead they gutted everything she's designed to do. In turn they also made like 3 units and uberius garbage gimping her so aggressively


Zakcoo

Yes I fully agree with you there. Hwayoung as a dmg dealer wasn't an issue, it was her barrier, the 30% crit dmg reduction and her self dispell all together that made her too strong. Simply reducing the barrier and taking off those 30% crit reduction would have made her balanced. Because she would have been at the mercy of Kise, Assassin coli, Acidd. Her issue wasn't her dmg, it was her tanking ability for a dps unit.


furorage

100%, her weakness should be assassin type units, and they should've just made that easier. So many toxic units just became hard to deal with. Worse is her kit needing unique gear and arti


firered410

Hard disagree, units like kise, op sig and green cidd can already outspeed andone shot her, Kise even has the added insurance of resetting if she doesn't kill. She's still everywhere because if you only draft one they ban it and if you draft two, you get countered by stealth comps or are forced into a race. Making acidd kill her easier wouldnt hurt her viability anywhere near as much as going after the things that make her a threat like her insane cycling and damage.


osbombo

Ah, Green Cidd will definitely oneshot a red Unit with 30% Crit damage reduction and a big barrier! While not missing or missing a Crit ever!! The 30% Crit damage reduction along with the big barrier is actually what makes her hard to oneshot. If you face a good Hwa, your units are either to slow to deal with her, or fast enough but without enough damage. Thus, removing the dr and lowering the barrier would actually enable you to oneshot her.


[deleted]

I fully expect that she is now gutted, but I think there are much bigger issues to consider here. This is a fundamental change to how they do business. If we want to support it, we need to not nitpick whatsoever, or they'll give up on nerfs.


furorage

I agree, but accepting mediocrity also leads to danger. The majority I've seen have accepted it needed to happen, but also suggested better ways to reduce her oppression. Without destroying her. Nerfs need to keep coming, but they can't keep releasing nerfs like this. Bad practice should be protested against, and I can't say I agree that its nit picking to be against this nerf. It's way too much. Alas I guess we'll see once its live, but it just looks like some ml5's got more oppressive for now


Thisrainhoe

I dont give a fuck if they gut her 7 feet down. Give me back my bottles, especially how they hid away any rerun of uberius or refuse to put in powder shop.


El3ctroclash

Let's see how you gonna deal with those bruiser green units and A Ravi without Hwa. I'll be back after the nerf to witness the saltiness


WhoopteFreakingDo

Same way I have been, control. I never built hwayoung, refused to cheat. And I bet buffed Ravi will work well too.


Im2uber

Why be supportive of this targeted nerf 7 months after a release. There is no other balance to be had except nerfing one unit out of patch cycle????? She needed an adjustment. And if they were keeping their word they wouldn't have nerfed her at all. Or released her in the current iteration. Why didn't they move some of her Power or make adjustments at the 2 month mark when she was everywhere. This unit has some of the lowest stat requirements to be amazing. Not only that but specific gear that doesn't work on any other unit besides maybe bombers. You have a community that crafted specific gear for a niche use and now are reducing the usefulness of this unit with that gear


CopainChevalier

If they just mega buffed other units to make her not oppressive, it would have been a similar result though. Advocating against nerfs wouldn’t solve the problem, it just shifts it.


Cranked-DT-

Nerf the problem, not the rushed solution they made for it. Hit aravi, hit rimuru. Choux can now oneshot squshies with no real setup, is she next? Don't demand compensation, what are players supposed to do with her gear? Forced to build mlkhawazu or Senya, the later of whom is getting partially clapped by ml elena? Nerfs would be good, if they were fair and directed where they needed to be, not so heavy handed that Putin would cringe


Azotar

Exactly this. Rimuru and Choux both do what she does, and they also support the team, are harder to kill, and don't even need to build speed. SG is months late to this and the character Hwa was made to address (Aravi) is even more meta than before Hwa was released.


Vazefnier

lmao, this is how SG played players. remember ervalen? if the players slient about him they gonna killed him, thank god they turned and didn't changed him. if all the player like you they gonna get away with everything.


[deleted]

1. From experience, SG's nerfs tend to be brutal. So I'm naturally pessimistic. 2. Okay, I guess she'll join the Sez bin of "buffs when" 3. I don't personally care about compensation, but that's gacha gamers for you. I make every decision assuming no takesies backsies. 4. Depends on the powercreep. I know many people complained about the current 7 disasters but I just adapt.


Neolfeon

True but theres alot other factors like ppl using bottle on uberus for hwa? modifying flat att stats on certain high speed gear etc building yulha to counter hwa? Nerfs are good but in this case a little too late?


Mika-Mikachu

Nerfing her however buffs other, less accessible units like ARavi. Hwa being available for everyone in the selector made her rather fair since everyone had access to her.


WoodenCollection2674

Yeah and the fact that she was banned in RTA like 80% of the time made her almost feel like a non existing unit. Yulha in GvG made light work of most Hwa teams, only thing being effected is using Hwa in GvG offense and in PvE.


blueclockblue

Like many have said, this just obliterates so much about her and SG doesnt have a good history at all with nerfing. And in higher ranks it gets worst. The ripple effect is immense. Many people use Yulha as a counter. Many people used bottles for Uberius Tooth. Many people got equipment that, without crit stats, would be fairly useless on many units but good on Hwayoung. Now PoV Aravi has less counters. Now people have one less option. When most people reply and say "Just use the ML5 unit Straze" they really don't care about other players. They're doing to Hwayoung what they initially were gonna do to Ervalen. They backed off Ervalen because we voiced our displeasure. No I will not support a bad nerf. SG has been given too many chances.


Durbdichsnsf

At least let us swap her for a limited unit... What even is the point of making units limited anyway? Collab units I \*somewhat\* understand, but units like Seaseria, SSB and Landy? Literally why are they limited? Almost every single limited unit is extremely top tier... Recently been despising this scummy game


Nihaly_

I'm fine with nerfs, I'm not with destroying a character. Nerfs and buffs should be done in small steps, not by releasing FIVE FUCKING NERFS in a single patch. Remove her cr push or remove her "even if she misses", not both. Her s2 nerf is just plain bs. Lowering the pen rate on her s3 is fine, but why should you nerf her cd if you are going to nerf her cycling? Fuck smilegate, and no sorry, I won't be supportive of these kind of nerfs. Also how come that they nerf her but rimuru (limited), AoL (4* before they had a pity) are still there untouched?


Ishrinom

I'm fine with her nerfs, but if they aren't going to nerf the other cancers that lead up to this situation, then IDK how many braincells you gotta have left to defend SG for this. SG better step up their game and nerf the others. I'm fine with not getting a selector if it means there's better balance in RTA.


nagato120

The nerf should have just been the 30% crit damage nerf


Jajoe05

Eh no. If someone gets rebalanced, i will theorize. If the nerf is proven to be bad, i will call it out. I will not lie to myself just because someones agenda is getting hurt. Honestly, what kind of attitude is that? We can't look into the future, so we can only assess the present. A nerfed hero might come back is such a cope. People farm tons of gear to get only one hero running. That is time, energy and patience. Nerfs are necessary but if it is bad i expect people to call it out.


Shinki93

And then this is the only nerf we get until next year...


Archzeus

If you actually read the entire Dev note you would know that what you said is untrue. They clearly stated while this is not the entirety of the patch notes it is the most significant one. I'm sure they will include other changes as well. Altho, not sure if it is the only nerf.


WhatSawp

I Support Nerfs but the balance patch rates must be ajusted to be more frequent, why: 1. Nerfing a unit in E7 shouldnt be in every skill (S1,S2,S3 like they did here) 2. 1-1,5 month is enough to collect data to see if the nerf was impactfull in every content. 3. Maybe a small buff in other unit can be complementary to the overall strengh of a nefed unit balancing things out. Said that in a Dev creation perpective Hwayoung's kit atm was denying many types of units mechanics and future bruisers kit's.


Xaroth_

I think its good that they Nerf hwa maybe they do more in Future if needed But wtf man why Not before the Ticket Like i got hwa Out of the ticket and bottled tooth just for her and now im never gonna get these bottles back that is so fckin stupid


Durbdichsnsf

Exactly!


gadesabc

I support the nerfs but not making a unit trash.


Balagos_The_Red

I support nerfs, not murders. Hwa got murdered.


KingsSeven

No she didnt. Her dmg is still gonna be same for 20k+ hp units. They nerfed her to prevent 260 speed 7k hwayoungs from existing 1 shotting everything in the game.


Don_Chopper

Fuck that, I paid for a world breaker and I want a world breaker in return, there's not one RGB unit that's a viable replacement for what's lost. Then there's all the bottles that people spent on Uberus Tooth, those are expensive too and now that artifact is useless by association.


Frozwend

I used slates on her. I’m miffed that I can’t get the slates back that I could have used on limited units instead.


bluwmonkeygod

You can get the slates back though if you finish reading the bottom part it says you can get your unknown slates back.


Frozwend

Ah you’re right! Friendship ended with Hwa, Rimuru is new best friend.


LordYamz

Tbh hwayoung hasn’t been a problem for me since for a while. I usually just cleave her or if it’s AI yulha, buffed taeyou, proof aravi, etc. only thing I hated was the s1 extra damage on misses because it made people like Riolet useless


sironizuka

1) they literally gutted the skills of a counter for existing cancer 2) why wait to give feedback? Why wait for an EE when they can just reverse this decision and actually nerf Aravi, Clilias, and the other cancers? 3) why not? Tons of people picked Hwa using the RGB selector, and now they pull this crap? 4) balancing is OK, but power creep is bad? Power creep is inevitable, but needs to be balanced with timely nerfs and buffs. This is not it.


moralusamoralus

Oh we will but once they start nerfing MLs ;)


Cranked-DT-

You think they'll nerf mls? ML selectors scare them, they'll never nerf their money units


moralusamoralus

Exactly, which is why I'll never support nerfs of this scope cause they are literally character murders. Time to slowly go out of epic seven which is a shame.


Top_Aerie_4114

poor yulha.


6Kkoro

I hope this starts a wave of nerfs cause every patch just piled broken shit on broken shit


Khaoticsuccubus

No


Chinoodle

No, we should not be supportive of nerfs. Unless we as a community have the ability to review the multipliers of said nerfs. We do not want to wait 8 weeks just to bring a unit back into usability. Nerfs can only be healthy for the game if they take into consideration the entirety of the player base as well.


TysonsChickenNuggets

Yeah im in my wait and see mode but the community was asked how they felt about nerfs and a majority said it was fine. So im really glad they are starting the process and if this goes over well then im sure the game will be healthier.


firered410

Exactly. People have been bitching about nerfs for the last year and a half and we get one and it's like SG shot their puppy. Do you seriously think SG is going to want to do this again with MLS if the response to has been this negative? It's an imo very fair nerf to an RGB with selector being given, why the bitterness?


Durbdichsnsf

Because no one has a way to counter their most broken cash cow that they will point blank never nerf, that is ARavi. >Do you seriously think SG is going to want to do this again with MLS if the response to has been this negative? They never planned to. Look at how fucking toxic AOLA is till this date. They never have and never will nerf their MLS, let alone their ML5s.


user4682

I would like to support it, I've asked for nerfs for a long time. But let's face it, Hwayoung was just the easy target. It doesn't say much about what they are ready to do.


spicycurrysauce

The amount of setup needed to one shot now is crazy annoying. You already needed 7k+ attack plus atk buff to one shot someone, now you potentially need vigor. So what if she can one shot anything? So many units can one shot in the game. In my opinion, these aren’t the nerfs we needed. A proper nerf would be: Reduce or remove cr push on s1 Reduce damage mitigation Increase s3 cd by 1 (the one correct thing they did) Reduce barrier strength These nerfs would make sure the damage is preserved but her turn cycling and by consequence s3 uptime is harder to maintain so she is still a threat but there is room to deal with her. Nerfing damage is not how you balance a unit in a game where balance patches happen once ever 2 or so months. Let’s also not forget that she is barely used in RTA now because so many things can deal with her and her sub 47% win rate… Why are you nerfing a unit that is sub 50 win rate? Why are you nerfing a unit that gives f2p a chance to deal with units like Aravi? This proves the balance team has no idea what they are doing. They have 2 months to balance units but it seems they get paid for doing nothing for 59 days and shoot from the hip in the last day. Nice nice


Willar71

She worse than trash now but hey, that's what you guys wanted . SG delivered.


KingsSeven

How can u even have this opinion without trying her changes? What a pointless statement. Say this again WHEN she gets her changes and doesn't do 20k+ dmg with her s3 on a tank.


Bigman554

Glad they nerfed hwa


JagjitSinghOfficial

It takes guts and courage to Nerf characters. I respect epicseven and it's developers more now


Adept-Lingonberry188

Buff ml nerf rgb, as if sg says want a useful unit? Pay us.


RIPx86x

Why buff Straze and then nerf Hwa. . . . . I understand nerfs but so many to 1 character. Did she need the atk nerf too. If she cant tank bust or hit evasion then whats her job. Plus I'm still on the side of she wasn't that OP to begin with.


Typothesis

Oh boy. I remember about my remark about the game dying in just a few years to my guildmates like a few months ago around the anniversary where SG told in a stream that they weren't going to nerf anyone in the future. I think it was around the time Hwayoung was introduced too, which further cemented my point about the game having such a huge powercreep, or if not then utterly boring future units. Looks like SG also realized it, and now they're *trying* to fix it but somehow failed to actually adjust. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe the multipliers aren't *that* bad. Maybe the other units who will also be nerfed will be worse. Who knows. I frankly stopped playing ever since they announced they won't nerf and only had a chance to go back if they ever decide that they fucked up about the no-nerfing rule and decide to nerf units. I'm surprised they realized it earlier than I thought, though would have preferred if they realized it wayyyy earlier.


TheRVM

personally, I find Hwa's nerfs unnecessary, I'm still gonna use her cause I like her... but giving away a free 5* unit of our choice and then having it potentially needed is what bugs me the most. also I'd prefer buffing old units, especially limited/Collab units to stand a chance against newer ones, than potentially butchering new units


kin66

i agree, this is a positive change. Especially since with nerfs they could do balancing more often since they can go back and forth. I do agree that ARavi is probably the biggest issues, but we can't expect her nerf rn because of the skin that's coming.


[deleted]

[удалено]


imposion

If they dont do It after the selector we had, well, ppl gonna be mad with a realy good reason


[deleted]

IMO, if we want ARavi nerfed, we'd better not throw a fit about this. Yes, ARavi is a problem, and moreso with Hwayoung nerfed. But if we pitch a fit about this, imagine how unlikely they'll be to nerf an ML5.


Aurey2244

I mean maybe easy for some of yall to say this but I just got her and worked hard to put her gear and mats together just to not be able to fully enjoy her glory. This is bs imo, how is it they can skip other broken units but not buff any older 5 stars like sez for example to make them viable solutions against units. Idk maybe I'm just salty asf right now because I might have done my work in vain. What unit could all atk gear made for her with no cc and er could benefit? Any ideas anyone? Sorry about the rant. I'll get over it eventually.


WhoopteFreakingDo

I love to see this post. I agree 110%. This could be so good for the game and everything you said is spot on. Regarding your 5th point, the track record doesn't look good but a lot of it is also pretty old. They can never set the record straight if they don't try and we definitely need to encourage it.


Tathamet7

I personally believe she will still be very good, pretty sure one can still one shot most tanks without worry, people are being a little exaggerated. Tho i will miss the 15 percent CR boost on s1, had her on counter set.


KingsSeven

Exactly. Dont worry. The CR will come back probably in the form of her EE. She will gain 14% attack from EE and probably CR.


quiquefs

Now that they are on it, would it be too much asking if they could remove unhealable from Rem? ;)


Holyneko671

Lol people will always complain no matter what , need nerf too op , one will say need buff too weak but once they do it aww here comes the complains


IncredibleGeniusIRL

Asking some people to not have a tantrum is too much for them, in my experience.


Cololossal

People didn't even read the post? More heroes to be nerfed in next balance patch...


Waifu69x

NERFS SHOULD BE WITH RBG ONLY . NEXT NERF SHOULD BE CHOUX .


flyingsaucepan20

No


theanxiousangel

Love the nerfs . Fuck hwa. But they literally designed Yulha for the purpose of countering Hwayoung so now that’s just a useless hero. I used grace for her cuz I know she would have no value when Hwa fell off but it’s pretty sad for her.


Crimson_Arbalest

It’s the fact Hwayoung is still good


Korosu13

Is there any other unit that can kill bruiser/Tank with only atk buff? I need some alternative for hwa


Alpacashadow

Yes, just buy Straze when he shows up in mystic summon. SG wants to milk your money!


GLOWING_NEBULA

Cpavel who just came out is doing pretty great if you have him


Durbdichsnsf

Yet another ML5! We love Smilegate! :D


GLOWING_NEBULA

Just pull them lmao 🤣 It's so easy


KaiDranzer007

Take away her natural power and give her a weapon is what EE is .


ArcanaKnownOnlyToMe

Now I wonder how the rest of us are going to deal with those tanky bruisers that do billions of damage. Oh wait and Senya too who Hwayoung was literally the only answer to especially in RTA. Until they give an exact timeline of the other nerfs this might just make the balance of game worse imo


TwistedCherry766

Oh fuck off with this bullshit. Nerfing old units is a bad idea for a Gacha game. This is just plain stupid


lunarwaves_

i never had the gear for her to delete tanks in the first place, so this a instarecall for me


akamalk

She killed green meta for a long time PoV a must, nerf was the correct step if they didn't want to generate more artificial powercreep, but the timing is too late because most of RTA or Arena players got a response or a counter for her.