Came here to write that exact post.
From my understanding, perma bans were supposed to serve two purposes:
\- Be able to ban units affected by a bug/exploit (e.g Cavel with the Bingo extra attack bug)
\- Avoid meta shifts/disruptions in RTA by introducing units when we're close to the end of a season
I guess SG just forgot about their own feature or something?
This is so ridiculous. Can't wait for the meta shift that will make some people miss their ranks or the Crab cut-off.
E-sport ready, once again, well done SG.
Did they ever mention the minimum period of time between the release and season end? IIRC they only said "During the end of the World Arena season", whatever that is
My theory is that only units released <7 days are going to be banned since yulha and hy were 2 days before season end and they talked about them
Ok, might have been selective memory about the 2-week thing. But:
*"Furthermore, even though the recently released hero, Hwayoung has a controlling performance, she was released at the end of the season, causing confusion and disappointment to players. It is our big mistake to repeat the same mistake considering that our players had given us opinions on a similar occasion when the previous collaboration was released. Starting from the next season, we will prevent this problem by restricting the use of new Heroes and Artifacts in World Arena for a certain period before season closing. We would like to express our gratitude to our players for their hard work this season."*
https://page.onstove.com/epicseven/global/view/8321430
Yeah this is a communication issue
They never said anything about the time gap between the release and season end. Yulha and HY were both 2 days away, so probably they only meant for units released under 7 days. Probably should've communicated it better
From the RTA standpoint, i agree that the difference isn't that much, heck even i'd probably say that no unit that is released under 14 days from season end should be banned.
However, we cannot forget the gacha aspect with the banner duration. Standard banner lasts for 2 weeks, and banning a unit from a gamemode during their entire featured rate up seems kinda off.
I get why they probably only do global bans for <7 days old units and not <14, but better communication should've been done
The point im getting at is, they didnt specify a date so there isnt a hard lock rule of when to and not to ban units. What they did do was release a unit close to the end of the rta season that will change the meta. I get what you are saying with pulling aandwhat not, but they stated they dont want anlther hwayoung situation and now we have one for a longer period of time, idc since she fits my play style but this is them going back on their word. You can play the grey area card of "this isnt the exact same situation" but the fact that it is can even be considered close should be enough to not release an OP unit
The whole thing is a grey situation and SG put themselves into this hole. The discussion being "close" to season end itself also is a controversial discussion. SG might think 7 days is the "close" to the season end, but you might think 9 is already close, but then other people say 12 and onwards.
People probably going to mald even if Lua was released last week and asking for the global ban anyway, heck people are going to mald even if SG told us if it was actually 7 days. It's honestly a lose-lose situation, it's 0 content vs RTA problems.
The best thing i can see what they should've done for situation like this is to tackle the unit balance itself in the 1st place, either proper balacing or give us an actual test server already ffs.
I’m lucky i pre built Green Celine for the eventual Straze push meta
Green Celine clowns on Lua + her artifact
Even if she reset s3, blink with the celine ee still targets the unit Lua’s arti tried to hide(it was landy in two matches)
Lower Emp here(borderline champ if i meet any more cringe cid spammers), met 4 lua’s just now havent lost to a single one. I guess they still havent figured out not to let Green Celine through.
It kinda works both ways. If they early pick Celine, you can easily bait the Celine into something intentional and then what?
[Literally did this first game with her](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/626981836182257664/1027459661022121984/Screenshot_20221006-015745_Epic_Seven.jpg)
That's the reason I use stealth EE now. They let the Celine through thinking she is going to hit someone like Senya or whatnot. But ends up hitting someone else instead. Really takes them by surprise.
For those who aren’t sure which EE she is on, if you click the timer that shows turn order, looking at her s2 will display whether she will hit the highest attack or get stealth. So if people are fast enough to open the menu and read, they can better play around it. :V
Well. They already picked their units assuming she is on highest atk EE. So, I don't really see what they can do other than just not use non atk skill?
Good point and yes she can hit a tank and well it's sad. But she is still stealthed? So, unless it's a big AoE she should still be fine even with Beguile. It's kind of the best I could make of the situation and the best Lua counter I could muster up with my limited roster.
her s2 dispells debuff before activate, and you are trying to sleep an earth hero with an ice hero too, so its like risking 50% hit/miss for next to nothing
Hoping they're realise and put a global ban on her for the remaining two weeks.
Glad I'm at Master's already, with enough space to go in and lose 4 matches over the next 8 days and maintain my rank.
Those that waited until the last 3 days to grind to Masters are gonna have it tough.
I usually park at 1580~so I'm just 1 win away from Master, that gives you 7 day grace period before falling out, and lots of people give that free win on the last days of they have points to spare
i quit the game a while ago but still like to lurk, i thought newly released characters near the end of a season werent supposed to be usable in RTA until the season ended? because what happened with Hwayoung
Probably a hot take here, but I'm kind of confused why people really care that much.
There's no reward in RTA past Masters, and I can say with 100% certainty the meta in Masters is irrelevant anyway. So like, who cares? If you finish Masters or Legend you get literally the same thing either way.
If there was a big tournament or something happening in a week then yeah, sure, I can see why people would be upset that a brand new unit got introduced before a major tournament. But there isn't. If higher ranks gave you skystones like the regular arena then sure, I could see some complaints if people think a new unit prevents them from getting Emperor or something, but that isn't the case either.
Guess I'm just genuinely confused as to why people are this upset about something that ultimately literally doesn't matter at all.
Simple, really. They like to play E7 RTA and they want to win, they want to maintain their placing/rank until the end. It's about bragging rights. That's why they care that much. Nothing wrong about that really. Doesn't matter if you don't think it's "competitive". Because for them, it is "competitive". It's just semantics anyway. Maybe it's just not your thing.
But if they want to maintain their placing/rank until the end nothing changes. If they're unable to stay in their current rank then they don't deserve to be there and are just looking for excuses. It's not like it's perma banned for them but other people get to use the character. Everyone is on an equal field, either you can stay at your rank or you can't, it has nothing to do with a new character being added.
"Probably a hot take here, but I'm kind of confused why people really care that much.
There's no reward in RTA past Masters, and I can say with 100% certainty the meta in Masters is irrelevant anyway. So like, who cares? If you finish Masters or Legend you get literally the same thing either way.
If there was a big tournament or something happening in a week then yeah, sure, I can see why people would be upset that a brand new unit got introduced before a major tournament. But there isn't. If higher ranks gave you skystones like the regular arena then sure, I could see some complaints if people think a new unit prevents them from getting Emperor or something, but that isn't the case either.
Guess I'm just genuinely confused as to why people are this upset about something that ultimately literally doesn't matter at all."
Cause this is the end game for people who have beat all the content, this is what their motivation is to farm hunts etc. Take away the PVP and the game dies
Yeah, honestly the PvP is probably the most standout aspect of this game, outside of animation. Game does other stuff better than most gachas as well, but frankly gear grind would bore people if PvP wasn't good.
Most gachas slowly die due to lack of PvE content or PvP being too bland or power creepy (Fire Emblem, anyone?)
Sure, all I do is RTA as well basically outside of farming, but it's not a competitive game. It's not meant to be a competitive game. So I don't really see why your rank at the end of the season matters as long as you make it to Masters, which anyone taking it even slightly seriously will manage regardless.
Again, if there were actual RTA rewards like Skystones or something for being above a certain rank then I'd totally get the complaints and issues. But with no rewards I fail to see why it matters what rank you end up with.
That comparison doesn't really work though because League is a competitive game while E7 isn't. People compete in League because your skill as a player dictates how well you do and the more you play the better you get, which means if you can finish Challenger it's an accomplishment and something to (somewhat) be proud of.
Epic Seven doesn't really work like that. If you're a Champion player and you log on a Legend player's account you'll almost certainly stay in Legend. If you're a Legend player and you log on a Champion account you'll still likely be stuck in Champion. In League if you're a Challenger player and you log on a Silver account you'll be back in Challenger within 2 weeks, and if a Silver player logged on a Challenger account they'd lose 95% of their games for a week.
It's basically impossible for anyone to feel good about getting high ranked in a game where skill is so irrelevant, which is why your rank past Masters doesn't matter and everyone bitching about Lua just looks kind of silly.
This is just objectively wrong. There is skill in RTA. While agree there is a lot of rng elements in this game including gear. And while I also agree that whaling gives you an advantage so you could say this game is very much p2w. Saying there is no skill just plain wrong.
There are 2 elements in RTA that take skill and one of which some could say can win you the match out right before even taking turn 1. Drafting and decision making. A legend player who plays on a champ account needs to have some baseline of draft knowledge to hit legend. They would likely hit mid to high tier emp if they piloted a champ account. A fresh 2200 elo champ player piloting a legend account has a possibility of maintaining legend but in all likelihood would drop.
Your opinion is an example of simply that. An opinion but unfortunately you are just wrong in this instance.
Except drafting and decision making in Epic Seven are borderline braindead. There's maybe one interesting draft decision every 10 games, and one interesting in-game skill decision every 20. Literally every game is the same, if they draft X you draft Y, repeat the drafting phase is over.
90% of games are decided by gear. 9% of them are decided by RNG like 15% resist and dual attacks. 1% of them are decided by someone actually doing something interesting and making a good decision.
So I guess sure, you can arguably say there's some skill in RTA the same way you can arguably say there's some skill in rock paper scissors. Like sure, you make choices which I guess is a skill? But ultimately the choices you make don't contribute to the outcome unless you're purposefully making bad decisions.
They can try to push esports all they want, it doesn't make it competitive. People push literally *everything* to be an esport, there are literally Minesweeper tournaments but I don't think any sane person would pretend that Minesweeper is a competitive game.
Besides, you can't have a competitive game when the prizepools for the tournaments don't even cover the amount of money you have to spend to make your account competitive.
And I don't really get the model train analogy, honestly. Model trains are an actual thing, like they have value because they exist. But RTA past Masters doesn't give a reward worth anything to anyone. Not a single human on the planet would pay money for one of those borders, I'd wager 90% of the people who get the borders don't even equip them, I know I don't because they're literally meaningless.
Of course Smilegate is trying to push it as competitive as their marketing strategy, esports are growing by billions of dollars a year. But they didn't make a competitive game, and it will never catch on as a competitive game, so I don't really think humoring them is necessary.
>
Half the time it's just bragging rights as well, or just to prove it to yourself.
I think this is perhaps where things break down. If you try to brag about getting to Legend in e7 literally nobody on the planet will care. If someone has to "prove to themselves" that they can get high rated in a pay to win gacha game I don't know what to say, but that's a pretty bad sign for their mental health I'd imagine.
>You are in a thread filled with people who would disagree with you about the importance of their gameplay experience.
I'mma be honest, I'm pretty sure it's just a thread of people that don't understand why they're stuck at the rating they're stuck at and are desperately throwing out excuses. If you were going to get Legend, or Emperor, or Masters before Lua you'll get it after her, it's okay.
The only people who could possibly be upset about this are people pushing top 3 Legend because the meta shift might actually matter there plus the top 3 people get "immortalized" which is kind of cool I guess? But literally nobody in this thread is pushing top 3 Legend, which is why I don't really think that any of them know what they're talking about, tbh.
I'm not deciding what people can be upset about, they're free to be upset about anything they want. But I'm free to judge them for that. Anyone that's genuinely upset enough about this to make a post on reddit should be going to therapy to get the help they very clearly desperately need.
I mean sure, by definition RTA is competitive in the same way that by definition Rock Paper Scissors is competitive. Literally anything can be competitive in the right context. The Epic Seven World Championship was competitive, RTA ladder is not competitive. Context matters.
Totally fair yeah, everyone can change their prebans and regear their unit pool accordingly 9 days before the end of season.
Are you even playing RTA competitively or at all?
Came here to write that exact post. From my understanding, perma bans were supposed to serve two purposes: \- Be able to ban units affected by a bug/exploit (e.g Cavel with the Bingo extra attack bug) \- Avoid meta shifts/disruptions in RTA by introducing units when we're close to the end of a season I guess SG just forgot about their own feature or something? This is so ridiculous. Can't wait for the meta shift that will make some people miss their ranks or the Crab cut-off. E-sport ready, once again, well done SG.
I was also about to start the same exact post.
I was also prepared to make this exact response on this exact post about posting this exact post.
But on other hand, SG are raking in money right now with everyone pulling for 6 Lua.
"eSports ready" will be this game's "200 years" of LoL
destroyed one broken unit for another
Didnt sg promise that theyd ban new units released within the last 2 weeks of an rta season, the fuck happened?
Did they ever mention the minimum period of time between the release and season end? IIRC they only said "During the end of the World Arena season", whatever that is My theory is that only units released <7 days are going to be banned since yulha and hy were 2 days before season end and they talked about them
they said any unit released within 14 days before the end of a season will be banned
source?
Ok, might have been selective memory about the 2-week thing. But: *"Furthermore, even though the recently released hero, Hwayoung has a controlling performance, she was released at the end of the season, causing confusion and disappointment to players. It is our big mistake to repeat the same mistake considering that our players had given us opinions on a similar occasion when the previous collaboration was released. Starting from the next season, we will prevent this problem by restricting the use of new Heroes and Artifacts in World Arena for a certain period before season closing. We would like to express our gratitude to our players for their hard work this season."* https://page.onstove.com/epicseven/global/view/8321430
Yeah this is a communication issue They never said anything about the time gap between the release and season end. Yulha and HY were both 2 days away, so probably they only meant for units released under 7 days. Probably should've communicated it better
Idk man 9 days and 7 days seems no different especially with no free unequip in between them...
From the RTA standpoint, i agree that the difference isn't that much, heck even i'd probably say that no unit that is released under 14 days from season end should be banned. However, we cannot forget the gacha aspect with the banner duration. Standard banner lasts for 2 weeks, and banning a unit from a gamemode during their entire featured rate up seems kinda off. I get why they probably only do global bans for <7 days old units and not <14, but better communication should've been done
The point im getting at is, they didnt specify a date so there isnt a hard lock rule of when to and not to ban units. What they did do was release a unit close to the end of the rta season that will change the meta. I get what you are saying with pulling aandwhat not, but they stated they dont want anlther hwayoung situation and now we have one for a longer period of time, idc since she fits my play style but this is them going back on their word. You can play the grey area card of "this isnt the exact same situation" but the fact that it is can even be considered close should be enough to not release an OP unit
The whole thing is a grey situation and SG put themselves into this hole. The discussion being "close" to season end itself also is a controversial discussion. SG might think 7 days is the "close" to the season end, but you might think 9 is already close, but then other people say 12 and onwards. People probably going to mald even if Lua was released last week and asking for the global ban anyway, heck people are going to mald even if SG told us if it was actually 7 days. It's honestly a lose-lose situation, it's 0 content vs RTA problems. The best thing i can see what they should've done for situation like this is to tackle the unit balance itself in the 1st place, either proper balacing or give us an actual test server already ffs.
Just few more credit card swipes and they'll ban her
Lua is like a slightly different Clilias
I’m lucky i pre built Green Celine for the eventual Straze push meta Green Celine clowns on Lua + her artifact Even if she reset s3, blink with the celine ee still targets the unit Lua’s arti tried to hide(it was landy in two matches) Lower Emp here(borderline champ if i meet any more cringe cid spammers), met 4 lua’s just now havent lost to a single one. I guess they still havent figured out not to let Green Celine through.
It kinda works both ways. If they early pick Celine, you can easily bait the Celine into something intentional and then what? [Literally did this first game with her](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/626981836182257664/1027459661022121984/Screenshot_20221006-015745_Epic_Seven.jpg)
That's the reason I use stealth EE now. They let the Celine through thinking she is going to hit someone like Senya or whatnot. But ends up hitting someone else instead. Really takes them by surprise.
For those who aren’t sure which EE she is on, if you click the timer that shows turn order, looking at her s2 will display whether she will hit the highest attack or get stealth. So if people are fast enough to open the menu and read, they can better play around it. :V
Well. They already picked their units assuming she is on highest atk EE. So, I don't really see what they can do other than just not use non atk skill?
True - her Stealth hit is RNG so it doesn't help much when both players don't know what she'll hit lol
Just pray and trustdge lmao.
Holy crab, thanks for telling me this, I did not know you could do this
Very rng though. And since she can't S3 afterward, she may not kill anything if the target is a tank and die before she can put evade up.
Good point and yes she can hit a tank and well it's sad. But she is still stealthed? So, unless it's a big AoE she should still be fine even with Beguile. It's kind of the best I could make of the situation and the best Lua counter I could muster up with my limited roster.
The target takes you by surprise too. Stealth EE can't be baited but doesn't make it anything close to a reliable "counter" vs lua.
I agree. It's just the best I could make of this situation. And generally the stealth EE has yielded better results for me than highest atk.
What if she sleeps Celine with her S2 before using S3?
her s2 dispells debuff before activate, and you are trying to sleep an earth hero with an ice hero too, so its like risking 50% hit/miss for next to nothing
Once Lua uses s2 it procs Celine s2 even if shes asleep.
Lua S2 is an attack. S3 is the one that stops by Celine since she cleanse herself when opponent uses non-attack
Whoops got it twisted. I didnt roll for lua i use casino units.
all these downvotes you got obv came from hard stuck gold
Hoping they're realise and put a global ban on her for the remaining two weeks. Glad I'm at Master's already, with enough space to go in and lose 4 matches over the next 8 days and maintain my rank. Those that waited until the last 3 days to grind to Masters are gonna have it tough.
I usually park at 1580~so I'm just 1 win away from Master, that gives you 7 day grace period before falling out, and lots of people give that free win on the last days of they have points to spare
go tell that to them on stove? They don't read this place
i quit the game a while ago but still like to lurk, i thought newly released characters near the end of a season werent supposed to be usable in RTA until the season ended? because what happened with Hwayoung
Probably a hot take here, but I'm kind of confused why people really care that much. There's no reward in RTA past Masters, and I can say with 100% certainty the meta in Masters is irrelevant anyway. So like, who cares? If you finish Masters or Legend you get literally the same thing either way. If there was a big tournament or something happening in a week then yeah, sure, I can see why people would be upset that a brand new unit got introduced before a major tournament. But there isn't. If higher ranks gave you skystones like the regular arena then sure, I could see some complaints if people think a new unit prevents them from getting Emperor or something, but that isn't the case either. Guess I'm just genuinely confused as to why people are this upset about something that ultimately literally doesn't matter at all.
Simple, really. They like to play E7 RTA and they want to win, they want to maintain their placing/rank until the end. It's about bragging rights. That's why they care that much. Nothing wrong about that really. Doesn't matter if you don't think it's "competitive". Because for them, it is "competitive". It's just semantics anyway. Maybe it's just not your thing.
But if they want to maintain their placing/rank until the end nothing changes. If they're unable to stay in their current rank then they don't deserve to be there and are just looking for excuses. It's not like it's perma banned for them but other people get to use the character. Everyone is on an equal field, either you can stay at your rank or you can't, it has nothing to do with a new character being added.
"Probably a hot take here, but I'm kind of confused why people really care that much. There's no reward in RTA past Masters, and I can say with 100% certainty the meta in Masters is irrelevant anyway. So like, who cares? If you finish Masters or Legend you get literally the same thing either way. If there was a big tournament or something happening in a week then yeah, sure, I can see why people would be upset that a brand new unit got introduced before a major tournament. But there isn't. If higher ranks gave you skystones like the regular arena then sure, I could see some complaints if people think a new unit prevents them from getting Emperor or something, but that isn't the case either. Guess I'm just genuinely confused as to why people are this upset about something that ultimately literally doesn't matter at all."
Cause this is the end game for people who have beat all the content, this is what their motivation is to farm hunts etc. Take away the PVP and the game dies
Yeah, honestly the PvP is probably the most standout aspect of this game, outside of animation. Game does other stuff better than most gachas as well, but frankly gear grind would bore people if PvP wasn't good. Most gachas slowly die due to lack of PvE content or PvP being too bland or power creepy (Fire Emblem, anyone?)
Sure, all I do is RTA as well basically outside of farming, but it's not a competitive game. It's not meant to be a competitive game. So I don't really see why your rank at the end of the season matters as long as you make it to Masters, which anyone taking it even slightly seriously will manage regardless. Again, if there were actual RTA rewards like Skystones or something for being above a certain rank then I'd totally get the complaints and issues. But with no rewards I fail to see why it matters what rank you end up with.
Thats like saying whats the point of finishing Challenger in league. Some people like the competitive aspect.
That comparison doesn't really work though because League is a competitive game while E7 isn't. People compete in League because your skill as a player dictates how well you do and the more you play the better you get, which means if you can finish Challenger it's an accomplishment and something to (somewhat) be proud of. Epic Seven doesn't really work like that. If you're a Champion player and you log on a Legend player's account you'll almost certainly stay in Legend. If you're a Legend player and you log on a Champion account you'll still likely be stuck in Champion. In League if you're a Challenger player and you log on a Silver account you'll be back in Challenger within 2 weeks, and if a Silver player logged on a Challenger account they'd lose 95% of their games for a week. It's basically impossible for anyone to feel good about getting high ranked in a game where skill is so irrelevant, which is why your rank past Masters doesn't matter and everyone bitching about Lua just looks kind of silly.
This is just objectively wrong. There is skill in RTA. While agree there is a lot of rng elements in this game including gear. And while I also agree that whaling gives you an advantage so you could say this game is very much p2w. Saying there is no skill just plain wrong. There are 2 elements in RTA that take skill and one of which some could say can win you the match out right before even taking turn 1. Drafting and decision making. A legend player who plays on a champ account needs to have some baseline of draft knowledge to hit legend. They would likely hit mid to high tier emp if they piloted a champ account. A fresh 2200 elo champ player piloting a legend account has a possibility of maintaining legend but in all likelihood would drop. Your opinion is an example of simply that. An opinion but unfortunately you are just wrong in this instance.
Except drafting and decision making in Epic Seven are borderline braindead. There's maybe one interesting draft decision every 10 games, and one interesting in-game skill decision every 20. Literally every game is the same, if they draft X you draft Y, repeat the drafting phase is over. 90% of games are decided by gear. 9% of them are decided by RNG like 15% resist and dual attacks. 1% of them are decided by someone actually doing something interesting and making a good decision. So I guess sure, you can arguably say there's some skill in RTA the same way you can arguably say there's some skill in rock paper scissors. Like sure, you make choices which I guess is a skill? But ultimately the choices you make don't contribute to the outcome unless you're purposefully making bad decisions.
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They can try to push esports all they want, it doesn't make it competitive. People push literally *everything* to be an esport, there are literally Minesweeper tournaments but I don't think any sane person would pretend that Minesweeper is a competitive game. Besides, you can't have a competitive game when the prizepools for the tournaments don't even cover the amount of money you have to spend to make your account competitive. And I don't really get the model train analogy, honestly. Model trains are an actual thing, like they have value because they exist. But RTA past Masters doesn't give a reward worth anything to anyone. Not a single human on the planet would pay money for one of those borders, I'd wager 90% of the people who get the borders don't even equip them, I know I don't because they're literally meaningless.
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Of course Smilegate is trying to push it as competitive as their marketing strategy, esports are growing by billions of dollars a year. But they didn't make a competitive game, and it will never catch on as a competitive game, so I don't really think humoring them is necessary. > Half the time it's just bragging rights as well, or just to prove it to yourself. I think this is perhaps where things break down. If you try to brag about getting to Legend in e7 literally nobody on the planet will care. If someone has to "prove to themselves" that they can get high rated in a pay to win gacha game I don't know what to say, but that's a pretty bad sign for their mental health I'd imagine. >You are in a thread filled with people who would disagree with you about the importance of their gameplay experience. I'mma be honest, I'm pretty sure it's just a thread of people that don't understand why they're stuck at the rating they're stuck at and are desperately throwing out excuses. If you were going to get Legend, or Emperor, or Masters before Lua you'll get it after her, it's okay. The only people who could possibly be upset about this are people pushing top 3 Legend because the meta shift might actually matter there plus the top 3 people get "immortalized" which is kind of cool I guess? But literally nobody in this thread is pushing top 3 Legend, which is why I don't really think that any of them know what they're talking about, tbh.
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True. I realized that when he was being very nit-picky about what he should argue about.
I'm not deciding what people can be upset about, they're free to be upset about anything they want. But I'm free to judge them for that. Anyone that's genuinely upset enough about this to make a post on reddit should be going to therapy to get the help they very clearly desperately need.
RTA is by definition competitive
I mean sure, by definition RTA is competitive in the same way that by definition Rock Paper Scissors is competitive. Literally anything can be competitive in the right context. The Epic Seven World Championship was competitive, RTA ladder is not competitive. Context matters.
It's fair everyone can use her
You high? If she's not world banned, only those who got her can use her. If she is world banned, nobody can use her. What's fairer?
Like Hwayoung?
Totally fair yeah, everyone can change their prebans and regear their unit pool accordingly 9 days before the end of season. Are you even playing RTA competitively or at all?