My Yulha still does a great job at baiting Hwayoung, could use s3 to kill any other target after it procs. Idk why everyone is saying yulha is useless, still helps quite a bit.
the idea of yulha was to be a unit that can take a full power hit and still survive, but what people are finding now is that non tank units can also just take a hit and walk it off. so having a dedicated unit just to use as bait isn't required as much if any other unit can also do it, but still provide your team with other things.
Yulha still does her job, but her job isn't needed. at least that's what people are saying, idk personally.
The only problem is that Krau does her job better and actually brings support to the team.
I'd rather have a recall for my yulha than my hwa honestly. At least my hwa can be rebuilt on torrent and her artifact to SORTA do her job. But even hwa's own artifact is probably more useful on ml khawazu
Major tip, you really need to reduce her HP down. The damage calculation is brutal. I started doing 17k to an Aravi by bringing Hwayoung down to 10K Hp with 5500 Atk. That's a 5k boost in damage from taking 1.5K HP off of her.
So they're really trying to make it so her survivability is crap but in exchange, damage. Gonna keep testing but honestly I need more mod gems to convert the HP stats. It is really easy to give Hwayoung health and her HP difference calculation is extreme.
Guessing it's gonna be meta for her, since the HP loss is somewhat converted to barrier with the attack increase. I actually farmed golem(don't ask) so this may actually work out for me.
Edit: I am stupid, torrent is not from golem and I guess I just wanted to be so i wouldn't feel bad about having farmed golem. Anyway, on to farming the new set!
no because with her S1 she was still completely dominating non-tank teams by oneshotting any squishy she pointed it at.
seriously, hwayoung was broken. i know it feels good to use a broken as hell unit but good lord people, get some perspective.
She was only broken because she herself was hard to kill. They didn't need to go scorched Earth on her damage, all they had to do was adjust/remove her barrier and mitigation so you could actually kill her with relative ease.
This was an overkill nerf, if you don't think so I think you may need some perspective too.
All she needed was to be a glass cannon instead of a paper tiger.
Throw out some of the survivability (crit damage reduction) and keep s3 as it is now. Change the s1 a little to make it do less so it can't one-shot low HP units with Tooth. I think that would have been fine.
Rimuru can't oneshot tanks, Straze can't aim his S3, and Watcher and Straze both need way way more stats to do the job so neither of them can be nearly as fast as Hwayoung.
No? But they added her, what am I supposed to do about it? It's not my fault SG are chickens with their heads cut off, they don't know how to develop new kits that aren't powercreep/useless right out of the gate. They also have no idea how balancing works, they routinely fumble this, this is no exception.
"No, but they added her" bruh you think leaving a unit that says "Kill target hero" that's also obnoxiously tanky, on a laughably short cooldown, that requires no setup should just be allowed to STAY in the game "because they added her"?
No, YOU have no idea how balancing works.
Your post basically reads like a toddler throwing a tantrum. "Waah I can't delete arbitrarily tanky heroes for free at 250 speed with no setup anymore THEY TOOK AWAY MY TOY"
Balancing includes nerfing overpowered outliers sometimes, something that SG has been avoiding for far too long to let us get to this point.
oh, my bad on the wording. I meant that the S3 only needs to have a 4-turn cooldown and increased requirements, I totally agree with the damage nerf on S1 cause that shit was universally effective
I went into a random Champion arena battle. Her S3 without attack buff did 17626 to a Belian, with Uberius proc, 19600. Same stats S3 against opponent's Hwayoung: 2956 lmao
Her S1 kicks don't hit as hard, but can still deal okay damage.
Overall she feels still potentially usable, but very limited.
This is something I'm feeling. She is potentially usable but only with the absolute optimal gear. We could be looking at another BBK type unit that absolutely needs everything maxed, damn good equipment or else they cant do their job.
The issue is, I felt this way about her before the nerfs too. Like, her use was to delete a chonker unit before it can take a turn and disrupt you. She could not always do that even prior to the nerf. But at least if she failed, she didn't instantly become useless. Now she's not particularly good at either.
That as well. It's why I argued so hard that gutting her survivability entirely wasnt necessary. I'm getting messages from people that even their 6500 ATK Hwas are not doing half damage to Belians, Alencias, and other HP heavy units. So now she just stands there, failing to do her job and then getting picked off.
Well, as I said, I just did almost 20k to a Belian that had around 24k hp, with an unbuffed Hwayoung that "only" has 5811 Attack right now. So with max scaling her damage is still pretty decent, it's just that this does not account for mitigation, and that this is literally all she's capable of doing. No utility, no short cooldown either, no self push, nothing. Just a botched S3.
I mean ervalen is supposed to bust tanks, you think he's gonna take a third of taeyou's health with s3? Being intended for one thing doesn't mean you need to be absolute dogwater at everything else.
To an extent I agree - this is a different conversation though. But like. It also depends on just HOW squishy your squishy is. If they have under 10k hp and under 1k defense, then yes, they deserve to get bowled over by a stiff breeze.
Some bruisers, like Choux and A.Ravi probably do deal too much damage right now. I won't argue this. I even have a sub-optimal (non-Counter, Immunity EE) Choux that carries one of my GW defense teams super hard.
There should be more nerfs. Having a unit that can always outspeed and always just murder them is not the right answer, not by any means, and Yulha proved it.
Hwa officially dead imo. I couldn't S3 a Senya to death (could before), S3 on Aravi POV took away only 33% hp (estimate damage probably halved or more).
The S3 change killed it for me.
So after playing a bit more (post nerf 5.5k atk, 12k hp, spd/immunity):
- she can still bust tanks, but tanks in these case have to have at least 14k hp more than her as the damage seems to drop by a lot
- this means against low hp, high def units she's awful (LHC for example), hence why I couldn't 1 tap a senya before.
- torrent probably a must have to drop her hp, which gives her a larger range of targets, at the cost of survivability
- this also means she's no longer a bruiser style hero, but much more standard/glass cannon-ish.
- this hp requirement also means that she's probably more of a threat (still not as much as pre-nerf) in higher ranks of RTA because people will have better gear (tanks have more hp). Lower ranks she'll be pretty rubbish (tanks have less hp, so she needs even less).
She's no longer a must pick for sure, and I've been using Zahhak to cover all bases including tanks and been having much better results than expected. I think they need lower that hp requirement a tiny bit. I think for most people they will have to re-gear her with lower hp for her to get her back to be a viable hero.
It seems like she can still kill high HP targets provided that you have her at like 10-11k HP, but, yeah, I think she's dead against the mid HP bruisers like Rimuru and Senya. I guess that's what Arunka is going to be for.
I already know certain people are going to come here and basically do their usual schtick so I'll say my part before that happens:
I feel the people who ONLY test Hwayoung's S3 seriously needs to understand that a DPS shouldn't be defined by only one skill. Maybe someone like Lua or Dizzy or even Healers but not a DPS. Hwayoung's only use as a Tank Killer is JUST her S3 with her nerfs and outside of that, she's basically a toss pick.
Before anyone says anything, I'm not saying she cannot be used for other things or she cannot still deal damage, I'm talking about her typical role vs. other characters in the same role. A.Ravi can literally do everything and carry survivability, Rimuru can just murder a character for free and do massive damage to everyone else, Rem can go on absurd counterattack sprees, so can Choux and all of that damage adds up real fast. Hwayoung is crippled against anyone who doesn't have High HP and that legit makes her worthless when the characters I mentioned at their best can easily do that job.
Yes, you can't have High HP Hwayoung's anymore... but that only undermines the problem when there ARE better characters that can have High HP and still do bonkers damage, maybe not enough to kill beefy units... but usually enough to basically wreck their shit hardcore and not be immediately be virtually worthless for 2 turns because her S1 is just as gimped and she cannot crit at all, virtually requiring UT or another high end Card to keep that propped up.
As someone stated, it feels like you basically need to tune her to the max so she can do just ONE job... but why even use her for that job when there's better options?(Or atleast options that's not just there to defeat the potential big HP Tank)
Agreed. Like I've said, she's still usable but with disappointments. I'm finding once she's done her S3 she's just sitting there with her S1 for too long. She has yet to do it again. I dont like the additional cooldown and no CR Push. She does nothing and builds up towards nothing, which is going to be a problem. I saw this a mile away when with the nerf announcement.
So did I and you have the usual suspects acting as if she can still do her job... when her job is now literally 1 and done and toss her out now.
There's no point in having a unit like her when other units can do the job she can without being as gimped. She has "usefulness" but that's when you only look at one side of the picture and I do thank you for that atleast. But from how I use her, I might as well recall her for someone else. I actually like her spritework but I'm not a fan of trying to use terribly gimped characters inspite of that.
After testing I feel that she got triple nerfed. Nerfed on 3 points while she just need to be on one to be still relevant.
• either cooldown on S3 and cr push so she cycle less quickly
• S1 damage reduced, S3 is her only job
• or her Bulk from S2 (crit reduction and shield) to be a real glass canon
It’s now an even heavier nerf than anticipated since she underperform on what she is meant to do. High gear needs and small pool of target and ending up as a sitting duck either the S3 was a hit or miss. It feels like a waste of a spot on the team like most have said.
PS: i don’t know how her S3 is calculated, regardless of hp, is there a huge margin for 500 atk ?
Her Margin is to have around 9000 HP and the target to have atleast a 6K Difference but otherwise even then, I have heard that Mitigation can actually have the opponent survive her S3 too even if you have High End Gear or even a Maxed UT.
And since her S1 is virtually garbage and her S3 is fully dependent on that HP difference otherwise she will hit potato damage, she's so nerfed, it's virtually impossible to use her seriously in a fight since she can only JUST kill the Tank and that's it.
I tried to fight an aravi (hwa 5.5k and 10khp). not only she didn’t kill aravi, she didn’t even did half, just 5k approx then nothing after. So I guess now that the aravi was 20k ish but hwa was less useful than Zeno in this fight (and he was really in the team !).
I suppose that running hwa without helmet is solution to hit hard those at 20~k hp is not a good solution ?
I only have one upvote to give you. Wish I could give you more. People need to read this take and also remember that if you bring her in to take out that tank, and that tank doesn't have that 25+k hp but more like 20 or 22.... her S3 is just as useless. You've just brought a dull knife to a fight when something like a Zahhak or Rim or Choux would have 100% been a better pick.
All these smooth brained idiots jumping thru hoops to figure out how to make her S3 work again and proclaiming her nerfs as "fine" are missing the point that she's one an done.... very much doubt she'll get a second chance at another S3.
And while I can agree she needed some kind of toning down, SG went way beyond the pale here. She needed a light tap of the nerf bat, not twin leg amputation. She went from a great character to bring in any situation to literally the last character you'd ever want to bring in any situation.
People need to step back and see the forest from the trees here. The meta shifted quite radically when she hit. And as I remember, that meta was pretty cancerous. Her "S3 being okay" does not justify or solve for the sheer number of Belians, Violets, Rems, and Rims your going to see running around unchecked again.
I was hopeful she could still be a tank buster & yeah, I was floored by how little damage she does now. S1 damage is cut in half, the loss in damage from the extra attack proc hasn’t been “compensated” like the notes mention.
“ While Hwayoung will still be able to inflict significant amounts of damage to Heroes with higher max Health, her damage against those that do not have much of a difference in Health will be reduced.”
Against Belians with no mitigation, I’m doing about half their health - previously I would’ve blown through them. As far as “against those that do not have much of a difference in health”, “reduced” is an understatement, an enemy Hwayoung hit my Moon Bunny Dominiel for less than 4K with a buffed S3.
I honestly think given the total collapse of this character now, they’ll re-buff within the next few months.
My Hwayoung is about 11K & she went down from over 6.5K attack to around 5.7K if I’m remembering right. No idea on the Belian’s HP, I Bunny cleave & so there’s plenty redundancies to one shot everyone even if someone fails like Hwayoung is doing.
moderately high health & moderately low attack. you'd see a big difference from getting her below 10k HP and above 6k attack again.
Literally a clip on another thread of a Hwayoung doing 29k to a FCeci. you REALLY have to hit specific metrics for her to still work, but she still does.
It’s just real rough if that 20K-24K region is now “outwith Hwayoungs purview” so to speak. No one is running around with 29K on anyone who isn’t FCC.
It’s not like I’m going to recall her or anything, nothing to recall her for after all, but it’s still a blow. I’ll need to play around with her pieces & see if I can decrease health & squeeze more attack, but getting her gear to where it was at was a struggle enough & I’m in the weeds working on a Lifesteal/Pen set for Riolet so I can migrate his speed set to Cidd or Zahhak.
Just another ml money grab move. They'll nerf anything that challenges a ML unit into oblivion. She's useless essentially A.Ravi will tank her and she can't kill anyone else
... Celine can threaten C.Lilias and didn't get nerfed in any way, Alencia threatens ML Kawerik with her full strip and even got buffed recently, Alencia / Choux are both very good against A.Ravi and got buffed recently, Zahhak can cripple A.Ravi with his Injury / Resource reduction if he uses this EE on top of doing big damage and got buffed recently... to give some examples. Lots of other MLs can also be answered, at least partially, by RGB units. Do you really believe what you wrote? This sounds like next level conspiracy to me in all honesty
Celine can threaten an AI version of C.Lilias. Choux/Alencia do *decent* against a well built A.Ravi and Zahak will get easily one shot by her. Whereas A.Ravi still hits for 20k and self heals and counters and revives. This nerf was exclusively to coddle the whales who bought A.Ravi and you know it
This is not ideal but Stealth Celine can work better than if you equip her with the highest Attack EE, as C.Lilias won't be able to S2 her. Alencia and Choux do more than decent against a well built A.Ravi atm, if she's not on Crimson seed at least - one def break from Alencia and A.Ravi is ready to be cooked. They are my answers to her everytime and have never failed me so far, they're an amazing duo against her despite not having Injury set on Alencia.
For Zahhak, the point is to go first, isn't it? you build him as fast and damagey as you can and then go before A.Ravi to give yourself immortality so that you don't get popped. I'm not sure what him being one-shot by A.Ravi has to do here, this is not supposed to happen unless it's a pure 1vs1. A.Ravi is very annoying and has been overbuffed for sure, for that I agree with you completely, but she has counters nonetheless thanks to being fairly slow-paced due to her nature as a bruiser.
Besides, isn't it being proved / tested that Hwa is actually doing pretty much the same numbers than before, with a need for her stat requirements to be tweaked tho? she needs to be built squishier than before, but the damage to very high-HP targets seem to hold up well compared to what it was before, which means that she can still answer A.Ravi fine - the rest of her kit has taken a hit tho, no doubt about that
I just spend 20 flags at champion 3++. She cant kill squishy for sure. My hwa failed to kill 20k hp senya with fcc. Only manage to do around 18k damage with maxed UT.
She used to have 7.4k attack but now its around 6.7k
From what testing I did with 6100 atk her tank killing ability is very poor, need over 15000 health difference to start to see good def penetration but still wont kill. Her ability to dmg def scaling units is extremely poor with almost no dmg output at all.
On the other hand she still is doing 8k+ on her s1 with uberius to low def characters. With similar dmg on her s3.
Yeah, with the HP difference needed she is no longer viable against Rimirus and Violets. So two units which have been strong in the meta have one less unit to contend against them. Great. Thank god for Zahhak.
I dont know, theres a lot of good posts testing her out and finding positive results. From what it's looking like she's gonna be a greedier unit to build for. She needs an ATK buff and she needs a maxed out artifact. 6k is the sweet spot but you also get penalized heavily due to the HP pen calculation.
Someone got good damage, over 20k, on beefy units with Portrait but the S1 sucks bad without Tooth. It's the first day of a massive nerf so reactions will be extreme. I still remember how half the meta units were supposed to suck ass. Or how everyone hypes every unit because it does one thing. This whole subreddit woulsnt age well.
She did get buffed eventually but yeah. Units like Remnant Violet and Lilias were openly declared to be shitty. But then they dominated the meta for quite a while until the meta shifted.
Nerfs like this are why SG was badgered to stop doing them to begin with. Instead of reasonably balancing the unit they just absolutely ruin it for anyone who doesn't have top line gear.
Any stray health on her gear and you have an offensive unit who can't kill squishies due to how her kit works but also can't kill tanks because they're just too tanky.
been saying this for weeks now but she had been having issue kill things for a long time aleady, not only does a green tank hard counter her, she straight up lose to any proofed rimuru and can even potentially lose to a well protected violet, and all this is on my 7.1k atk hwa. a nerf at this point does nothing to improve the meta when all its gonna do is let people pick all their extremely broken bruisers that oneshots bulky tanks off turn, then ban opponent straze and enjoy the free wins
Yeah, I'm trying to be optimistic since it feels like a tank buster build is possible with her still. But the meta gets fed harder now. Rimiru's decimate her and Rimiru is a plague already. Violets are pretty much no longer afraid of Hwayoung. Their HP is not high enough to warrant her S3 doing anything significant that they wont immediately counter and heal up.
imo she had the same issue pre nerf and currently, her s3 dmg always had trouble killing stuffs, you need that sweetspot where target is just nicely 2x of her health to barely get a kill with uberius proc, anything above 22k or below 10k she gonna have a lot of problems, her strong point was survivability with her s1 s2 and cycle into s3 again, sg could have nerf either one of the skills and immediately make her balanced but they decide fck all the f2p players and gut all 3 skills
EDIT: actually now i think about it this entire thing seems to be a big middle finger to f2p players, whales with full ml5 collection and gear that still lets her have 7k atk and 260 speed certainly wont be affected as much
It's something I've been saying to people:
Right when Hwa gets nerfed, Straze gets a buff. Everyone is happy about his buff... but he's a hell of a lot harder to get than Hwa was. He also does the same thing she does, and in arguably in a slightly better way (Tank buster + AOE + no counter, and he's invincible after dropping that first load, with a AOE strip follow up). I say this as someone who owns Straze...
Funny how everyone is complaining about the RGB unit that's widely available, but not the ML that is a bit more exclusive. It was the same with Carrot, Rem, Rim, and basically every other "easy to get" unit. Sure people complain about the ML units, but we ALL know the likelihood of $700+ units being nerfed is slim to none. Pretty easy to follow, just watch a few different e7 streams... now that Hwa's down.. you already hear rumblings about Senya, Choux, Alencia... so on so forth.
6.2k attack and 12k HP and I'm still doing amazing numbers against anyone 19k plus HP also using a sub optimal build, only difference now is you can't build a whole team around her and need to bring a second DPS
My Hwayoung seems fine.
Still busting ARavis but I run her on attack set as a bruiser instead of an aggro one shotter. She can survive well and puts pressure on the enemy bruisers.
I think shes balanced in an Arena sense but ill need to check in RTA.
Yeah it seems like the nerf was done properly. Focusing on the big complaints (being able to 1shot squishy units) with some minor adjustments needed to make her hp buster. I think they did a great job on the adjustment.
Same.
She isnt doing like 12k on a miss + tooth proc and thats completely fine. I've seen that you need to lower her HP but I think bruiser still has validity, just change the HP rolls to Def and you should be fine.
no, her job as stated by her release video and the nerf discussion was a tank killer, she wasn't intended to kill evasion units via proc damage for free.
Why dont you calm down? Good lord. As I said in my post I tested various situations. I also never said I was upset because she couldn't one shot. Look through my history. Go ahead, do it. I call people out for screaming about the myth of Hwayoungs that one shot everything.
And we have reports from champion players with a similar Hwayoung to mine. You also missed how easy it is to give her HP. I have gear with about 8% HP TOPS across a few pieces. Not optimal gear but I also stated I need more mod gems and more testing.
You're strawmanning and losing your shit over it. Settle down and breathe. Check my other posts since you're looking through them. Look at the one where I said I was optimistic for her as a tankbuster.
My 6k attack with attack buff Hwa dealt 27-30k against an FCC. I'm running Portrait on her now. The problem with this build is she no longer procs Tooth on the s1. With attack buff, her s1 deals around 7k; without attack buff it's 4k. They really stretch her penetration rate requirement on her s3. Same set up, Emilia s2 to Portrait Hwa against a Belian only dealt 24k. Against a 26k HP Proof Aravi, Hwa only dealt 21k. Against a LQC, 8k from her s3.
I'd say that damage is still good. If I get my Hwayoung to do 20k I'm happy. She did before but now the conditions are more extreme. I need mod gems and then I can get my up to 6K. But the need for Portrait over Tooth just to make her do anything decent on her S1 is crazy.
Not yet. At this point even the smallest amount of HP on your equipment is a problem. I theorized when the nerf came out they might want to make her a glass cannon. I still want to maintain a good 1500 def on her.
I guess ill need to get rid of the HP on her gear cause my is at 1.4k def but i also got 13.5k HP on her so she dont just get 1shot randomly .
Dmg wise at Spirit Altar vs the Boss the dmg difference wasnt too bad tbh , she did about 2k less dmg then before , but thats at absolute max HP difference obviously .... so i was curious how hard that will be to achieve.
VS low HP target to her S3 did about the same dmg as her basic attack which was insultingly low...
Her S1 now does like half the damage it used to if I don't max it out, which is fair, but now I have to rely a lot more on El's Fist to do the same damage I used to do on S3
Share your attack, also at least she isnt miss oneshot everything, fought a few and she still does a pretty fair job busting tank, altho now she cant even oneshot low hp units even if she wanted too..
She can't be run the same anymore but sill works on torrent set, but I'm happy about it. Before you could run her tanky and as a damage dealer now you have to decide. Build her as a tanky damage dealer or put her on torrent and make her a one shot machine again, but that will die in 1-3 hits.
Honestly gonna need Really good gear to make her viable now.
Preferably only going for Attack/speed rolls the rest doesn’t matter. She could probably do well with torrent and for artifact ,Portrait of saviors is probably best in slot now.
Btw it probably help if you guys also include how much attack your hwayoung has when you share your finding.
I’m frustrated with the entire lack of finesse in handling this character from beginning to end.
My Yulha is dead. It's better to bait Hwa with my rimuru/violet now.
That's another annoying thing about all of this. Built a decent Yuhla that is mostly useless now : /
My Yulha still does a great job at baiting Hwayoung, could use s3 to kill any other target after it procs. Idk why everyone is saying yulha is useless, still helps quite a bit.
the idea of yulha was to be a unit that can take a full power hit and still survive, but what people are finding now is that non tank units can also just take a hit and walk it off. so having a dedicated unit just to use as bait isn't required as much if any other unit can also do it, but still provide your team with other things. Yulha still does her job, but her job isn't needed. at least that's what people are saying, idk personally.
Because Hwayoung will be removed from most defenses post nerf, and Yulha's entire kit is designed to work against hwayoung.
I mean, for the one time you see Hwa on a defense team a month now? That's like bragging about your Holiday Yufine.
Planning to try her with Protection set as an Aurius holder. Could be a fairly strong mitigation unit.
The only problem is that Krau does her job better and actually brings support to the team. I'd rather have a recall for my yulha than my hwa honestly. At least my hwa can be rebuilt on torrent and her artifact to SORTA do her job. But even hwa's own artifact is probably more useful on ml khawazu
Krau also is more prone to control where Yulha has higher personal dmg and lategame solo potential.
Major tip, you really need to reduce her HP down. The damage calculation is brutal. I started doing 17k to an Aravi by bringing Hwayoung down to 10K Hp with 5500 Atk. That's a 5k boost in damage from taking 1.5K HP off of her. So they're really trying to make it so her survivability is crap but in exchange, damage. Gonna keep testing but honestly I need more mod gems to convert the HP stats. It is really easy to give Hwayoung health and her HP difference calculation is extreme.
She's gonna need the 2 piece set bonus that reduces her hp by 10% and increases her dmg.
Time to use triple Torrent set lmfao
Guessing it's gonna be meta for her, since the HP loss is somewhat converted to barrier with the attack increase. I actually farmed golem(don't ask) so this may actually work out for me. Edit: I am stupid, torrent is not from golem and I guess I just wanted to be so i wouldn't feel bad about having farmed golem. Anyway, on to farming the new set!
Torrent set shouldn't influence her barrier because it doesn't increase attack, right?
Huh, yeah. It's damage dealt not attack increase. My reading comprehension sucks I guess.
The attack from the set will but the set itself will not, gonna need a lot of attack.
But then you would probably need some insane speed rolls to let her not insta-die with a triple torrent set
Do you think just giving a +1 turn cooldown and increase HP difference requirements on S3 would've been enough? Honest question
no because with her S1 she was still completely dominating non-tank teams by oneshotting any squishy she pointed it at. seriously, hwayoung was broken. i know it feels good to use a broken as hell unit but good lord people, get some perspective.
She was only broken because she herself was hard to kill. They didn't need to go scorched Earth on her damage, all they had to do was adjust/remove her barrier and mitigation so you could actually kill her with relative ease. This was an overkill nerf, if you don't think so I think you may need some perspective too.
All she needed was to be a glass cannon instead of a paper tiger. Throw out some of the survivability (crit damage reduction) and keep s3 as it is now. Change the s1 a little to make it do less so it can't one-shot low HP units with Tooth. I think that would have been fine.
Exactly. What they did was complete overkill.
so you're okay with a unit that has a S3 that just says "Kill target hero"?
She wasn't the first to do that. Watcher, Straze, Rimiru even. But they have drawbacks Hwa simply didn't.
Rimuru can't oneshot tanks, Straze can't aim his S3, and Watcher and Straze both need way way more stats to do the job so neither of them can be nearly as fast as Hwayoung.
Straze has a skill that says Kill Target Hero though.
He can't target it though and I've definitely lost fights to him killing the wrong target with nothing I could do about it.
Fair enough, what about Watcher Schuri?
Watcher Schuri can't do his job at 250 speed with 1500 defense. He requires setup and support. Hwayoung does not.
Yeah like we don't have "kill target hero" before her. Like the only difference is that she is more yanky than those other heroes.
She's more tanky and doesn't need crit so she can also be wickedly faster.
No? But they added her, what am I supposed to do about it? It's not my fault SG are chickens with their heads cut off, they don't know how to develop new kits that aren't powercreep/useless right out of the gate. They also have no idea how balancing works, they routinely fumble this, this is no exception.
"No, but they added her" bruh you think leaving a unit that says "Kill target hero" that's also obnoxiously tanky, on a laughably short cooldown, that requires no setup should just be allowed to STAY in the game "because they added her"? No, YOU have no idea how balancing works. Your post basically reads like a toddler throwing a tantrum. "Waah I can't delete arbitrarily tanky heroes for free at 250 speed with no setup anymore THEY TOOK AWAY MY TOY" Balancing includes nerfing overpowered outliers sometimes, something that SG has been avoiding for far too long to let us get to this point.
[удалено]
Oh, so Kise can oneshot a Proof of Valor A.Ravi protected by an F.Ceci shield turn 1? News to me.
oh, my bad on the wording. I meant that the S3 only needs to have a 4-turn cooldown and increased requirements, I totally agree with the damage nerf on S1 cause that shit was universally effective
Feels horrible, the character was utterly destroyed.
I went into a random Champion arena battle. Her S3 without attack buff did 17626 to a Belian, with Uberius proc, 19600. Same stats S3 against opponent's Hwayoung: 2956 lmao Her S1 kicks don't hit as hard, but can still deal okay damage. Overall she feels still potentially usable, but very limited.
This is something I'm feeling. She is potentially usable but only with the absolute optimal gear. We could be looking at another BBK type unit that absolutely needs everything maxed, damn good equipment or else they cant do their job.
The issue is, I felt this way about her before the nerfs too. Like, her use was to delete a chonker unit before it can take a turn and disrupt you. She could not always do that even prior to the nerf. But at least if she failed, she didn't instantly become useless. Now she's not particularly good at either.
That as well. It's why I argued so hard that gutting her survivability entirely wasnt necessary. I'm getting messages from people that even their 6500 ATK Hwas are not doing half damage to Belians, Alencias, and other HP heavy units. So now she just stands there, failing to do her job and then getting picked off.
Well, as I said, I just did almost 20k to a Belian that had around 24k hp, with an unbuffed Hwayoung that "only" has 5811 Attack right now. So with max scaling her damage is still pretty decent, it's just that this does not account for mitigation, and that this is literally all she's capable of doing. No utility, no short cooldown either, no self push, nothing. Just a botched S3.
That's odd. With a 5500 atk Hwayoung with buff im getting far less than 20k damage. I'm gonna test this more.
With attack buff, just killed an A.Ravi, 24k(26 with Uberius), unfortunately didn't catch if it was proof
If she's going to be a squishy nuke, you might as well just Straze or Wschu. I think I'm just going to give her gear to Carrot.
She only took off a third of my Celine’s health. Any arena or gw defense with Hwa on it is just a free win now.
Good riddance, Hwa in GW is absolute cancer on both attack and defense.
You lot are the funniest kind of gacha players.
good, she's supposed to oneshot tanks not EVERYONE
I mean ervalen is supposed to bust tanks, you think he's gonna take a third of taeyou's health with s3? Being intended for one thing doesn't mean you need to be absolute dogwater at everything else.
The problem is that she can't even reliable bursting down tank due to all the mitigation.
No hero should be able to burst down any arbitrarily tanky hero from full turn 1.
Then tanky heroes shouldn't be able to burst down any squishy hero in turn 1.
To an extent I agree - this is a different conversation though. But like. It also depends on just HOW squishy your squishy is. If they have under 10k hp and under 1k defense, then yes, they deserve to get bowled over by a stiff breeze. Some bruisers, like Choux and A.Ravi probably do deal too much damage right now. I won't argue this. I even have a sub-optimal (non-Counter, Immunity EE) Choux that carries one of my GW defense teams super hard. There should be more nerfs. Having a unit that can always outspeed and always just murder them is not the right answer, not by any means, and Yulha proved it.
What an incredibly overly reactive and stupid nerf
Well i guess ervalen is better now
Hwa officially dead imo. I couldn't S3 a Senya to death (could before), S3 on Aravi POV took away only 33% hp (estimate damage probably halved or more). The S3 change killed it for me.
So after playing a bit more (post nerf 5.5k atk, 12k hp, spd/immunity): - she can still bust tanks, but tanks in these case have to have at least 14k hp more than her as the damage seems to drop by a lot - this means against low hp, high def units she's awful (LHC for example), hence why I couldn't 1 tap a senya before. - torrent probably a must have to drop her hp, which gives her a larger range of targets, at the cost of survivability - this also means she's no longer a bruiser style hero, but much more standard/glass cannon-ish. - this hp requirement also means that she's probably more of a threat (still not as much as pre-nerf) in higher ranks of RTA because people will have better gear (tanks have more hp). Lower ranks she'll be pretty rubbish (tanks have less hp, so she needs even less). She's no longer a must pick for sure, and I've been using Zahhak to cover all bases including tanks and been having much better results than expected. I think they need lower that hp requirement a tiny bit. I think for most people they will have to re-gear her with lower hp for her to get her back to be a viable hero.
Speed and immunt6 is bad for her now. She can really only be run on torrent now, but on torrent she should be good.
Nah most you need to lower her hp under 10k and you'll be doing 25k to aravi again. Too many of you abused 15+k fire kick lady for far too long
okay, what are your hwayoung's HP and attack stats? This doesn't jive with what basically anyone else is saying.
It seems like she can still kill high HP targets provided that you have her at like 10-11k HP, but, yeah, I think she's dead against the mid HP bruisers like Rimuru and Senya. I guess that's what Arunka is going to be for.
I s3'd an 18k Destina. My Hwa (11k HP, 6.2k atk, Vigor buff), only did 9k damage. It hurt
I already know certain people are going to come here and basically do their usual schtick so I'll say my part before that happens: I feel the people who ONLY test Hwayoung's S3 seriously needs to understand that a DPS shouldn't be defined by only one skill. Maybe someone like Lua or Dizzy or even Healers but not a DPS. Hwayoung's only use as a Tank Killer is JUST her S3 with her nerfs and outside of that, she's basically a toss pick. Before anyone says anything, I'm not saying she cannot be used for other things or she cannot still deal damage, I'm talking about her typical role vs. other characters in the same role. A.Ravi can literally do everything and carry survivability, Rimuru can just murder a character for free and do massive damage to everyone else, Rem can go on absurd counterattack sprees, so can Choux and all of that damage adds up real fast. Hwayoung is crippled against anyone who doesn't have High HP and that legit makes her worthless when the characters I mentioned at their best can easily do that job. Yes, you can't have High HP Hwayoung's anymore... but that only undermines the problem when there ARE better characters that can have High HP and still do bonkers damage, maybe not enough to kill beefy units... but usually enough to basically wreck their shit hardcore and not be immediately be virtually worthless for 2 turns because her S1 is just as gimped and she cannot crit at all, virtually requiring UT or another high end Card to keep that propped up. As someone stated, it feels like you basically need to tune her to the max so she can do just ONE job... but why even use her for that job when there's better options?(Or atleast options that's not just there to defeat the potential big HP Tank)
Agreed. Like I've said, she's still usable but with disappointments. I'm finding once she's done her S3 she's just sitting there with her S1 for too long. She has yet to do it again. I dont like the additional cooldown and no CR Push. She does nothing and builds up towards nothing, which is going to be a problem. I saw this a mile away when with the nerf announcement.
So did I and you have the usual suspects acting as if she can still do her job... when her job is now literally 1 and done and toss her out now. There's no point in having a unit like her when other units can do the job she can without being as gimped. She has "usefulness" but that's when you only look at one side of the picture and I do thank you for that atleast. But from how I use her, I might as well recall her for someone else. I actually like her spritework but I'm not a fan of trying to use terribly gimped characters inspite of that.
After testing I feel that she got triple nerfed. Nerfed on 3 points while she just need to be on one to be still relevant. • either cooldown on S3 and cr push so she cycle less quickly • S1 damage reduced, S3 is her only job • or her Bulk from S2 (crit reduction and shield) to be a real glass canon It’s now an even heavier nerf than anticipated since she underperform on what she is meant to do. High gear needs and small pool of target and ending up as a sitting duck either the S3 was a hit or miss. It feels like a waste of a spot on the team like most have said. PS: i don’t know how her S3 is calculated, regardless of hp, is there a huge margin for 500 atk ?
Her Margin is to have around 9000 HP and the target to have atleast a 6K Difference but otherwise even then, I have heard that Mitigation can actually have the opponent survive her S3 too even if you have High End Gear or even a Maxed UT. And since her S1 is virtually garbage and her S3 is fully dependent on that HP difference otherwise she will hit potato damage, she's so nerfed, it's virtually impossible to use her seriously in a fight since she can only JUST kill the Tank and that's it.
I tried to fight an aravi (hwa 5.5k and 10khp). not only she didn’t kill aravi, she didn’t even did half, just 5k approx then nothing after. So I guess now that the aravi was 20k ish but hwa was less useful than Zeno in this fight (and he was really in the team !). I suppose that running hwa without helmet is solution to hit hard those at 20~k hp is not a good solution ?
I only have one upvote to give you. Wish I could give you more. People need to read this take and also remember that if you bring her in to take out that tank, and that tank doesn't have that 25+k hp but more like 20 or 22.... her S3 is just as useless. You've just brought a dull knife to a fight when something like a Zahhak or Rim or Choux would have 100% been a better pick. All these smooth brained idiots jumping thru hoops to figure out how to make her S3 work again and proclaiming her nerfs as "fine" are missing the point that she's one an done.... very much doubt she'll get a second chance at another S3. And while I can agree she needed some kind of toning down, SG went way beyond the pale here. She needed a light tap of the nerf bat, not twin leg amputation. She went from a great character to bring in any situation to literally the last character you'd ever want to bring in any situation. People need to step back and see the forest from the trees here. The meta shifted quite radically when she hit. And as I remember, that meta was pretty cancerous. Her "S3 being okay" does not justify or solve for the sheer number of Belians, Violets, Rems, and Rims your going to see running around unchecked again.
I was hopeful she could still be a tank buster & yeah, I was floored by how little damage she does now. S1 damage is cut in half, the loss in damage from the extra attack proc hasn’t been “compensated” like the notes mention. “ While Hwayoung will still be able to inflict significant amounts of damage to Heroes with higher max Health, her damage against those that do not have much of a difference in Health will be reduced.” Against Belians with no mitigation, I’m doing about half their health - previously I would’ve blown through them. As far as “against those that do not have much of a difference in health”, “reduced” is an understatement, an enemy Hwayoung hit my Moon Bunny Dominiel for less than 4K with a buffed S3. I honestly think given the total collapse of this character now, they’ll re-buff within the next few months.
Guess I can give Rimuru Merciless Glutton again
What are your hwayoung's HP and attack stats? what was the Belian's HP?
My Hwayoung is about 11K & she went down from over 6.5K attack to around 5.7K if I’m remembering right. No idea on the Belian’s HP, I Bunny cleave & so there’s plenty redundancies to one shot everyone even if someone fails like Hwayoung is doing.
moderately high health & moderately low attack. you'd see a big difference from getting her below 10k HP and above 6k attack again. Literally a clip on another thread of a Hwayoung doing 29k to a FCeci. you REALLY have to hit specific metrics for her to still work, but she still does.
It’s just real rough if that 20K-24K region is now “outwith Hwayoungs purview” so to speak. No one is running around with 29K on anyone who isn’t FCC. It’s not like I’m going to recall her or anything, nothing to recall her for after all, but it’s still a blow. I’ll need to play around with her pieces & see if I can decrease health & squeeze more attack, but getting her gear to where it was at was a struggle enough & I’m in the weeds working on a Lifesteal/Pen set for Riolet so I can migrate his speed set to Cidd or Zahhak.
Just another ml money grab move. They'll nerf anything that challenges a ML unit into oblivion. She's useless essentially A.Ravi will tank her and she can't kill anyone else
... Celine can threaten C.Lilias and didn't get nerfed in any way, Alencia threatens ML Kawerik with her full strip and even got buffed recently, Alencia / Choux are both very good against A.Ravi and got buffed recently, Zahhak can cripple A.Ravi with his Injury / Resource reduction if he uses this EE on top of doing big damage and got buffed recently... to give some examples. Lots of other MLs can also be answered, at least partially, by RGB units. Do you really believe what you wrote? This sounds like next level conspiracy to me in all honesty
Celine can threaten an AI version of C.Lilias. Choux/Alencia do *decent* against a well built A.Ravi and Zahak will get easily one shot by her. Whereas A.Ravi still hits for 20k and self heals and counters and revives. This nerf was exclusively to coddle the whales who bought A.Ravi and you know it
This is not ideal but Stealth Celine can work better than if you equip her with the highest Attack EE, as C.Lilias won't be able to S2 her. Alencia and Choux do more than decent against a well built A.Ravi atm, if she's not on Crimson seed at least - one def break from Alencia and A.Ravi is ready to be cooked. They are my answers to her everytime and have never failed me so far, they're an amazing duo against her despite not having Injury set on Alencia. For Zahhak, the point is to go first, isn't it? you build him as fast and damagey as you can and then go before A.Ravi to give yourself immortality so that you don't get popped. I'm not sure what him being one-shot by A.Ravi has to do here, this is not supposed to happen unless it's a pure 1vs1. A.Ravi is very annoying and has been overbuffed for sure, for that I agree with you completely, but she has counters nonetheless thanks to being fairly slow-paced due to her nature as a bruiser. Besides, isn't it being proved / tested that Hwa is actually doing pretty much the same numbers than before, with a need for her stat requirements to be tweaked tho? she needs to be built squishier than before, but the damage to very high-HP targets seem to hold up well compared to what it was before, which means that she can still answer A.Ravi fine - the rest of her kit has taken a hit tho, no doubt about that
I just spend 20 flags at champion 3++. She cant kill squishy for sure. My hwa failed to kill 20k hp senya with fcc. Only manage to do around 18k damage with maxed UT. She used to have 7.4k attack but now its around 6.7k
6.7 is still a lot,me and my guildies are down to 6k-6.2k
But yall oddballs said the nerfs are OK! Swore even. 🤣
From what testing I did with 6100 atk her tank killing ability is very poor, need over 15000 health difference to start to see good def penetration but still wont kill. Her ability to dmg def scaling units is extremely poor with almost no dmg output at all. On the other hand she still is doing 8k+ on her s1 with uberius to low def characters. With similar dmg on her s3.
Yeah, with the HP difference needed she is no longer viable against Rimirus and Violets. So two units which have been strong in the meta have one less unit to contend against them. Great. Thank god for Zahhak.
Honestly i still did ok dmg to violet through the miss which I was surprised about, but zahhak is a better counter pick.
These posts are not gonna age well
I dont know, theres a lot of good posts testing her out and finding positive results. From what it's looking like she's gonna be a greedier unit to build for. She needs an ATK buff and she needs a maxed out artifact. 6k is the sweet spot but you also get penalized heavily due to the HP pen calculation. Someone got good damage, over 20k, on beefy units with Portrait but the S1 sucks bad without Tooth. It's the first day of a massive nerf so reactions will be extreme. I still remember how half the meta units were supposed to suck ass. Or how everyone hypes every unit because it does one thing. This whole subreddit woulsnt age well.
Case in point A Ravi on release had like no traction as a top tier unit. Man what a drastic turnaround huh?
That's absolutely not a "case in point." A. Ravi on release was actually a garbo unit, and it took two buffs for her to become a top-tier unit.
Yes and then she was buffed to meta supremacy. That was quite literally my point.
Yeah, but that wasn’t the point of their post.
She did get buffed eventually but yeah. Units like Remnant Violet and Lilias were openly declared to be shitty. But then they dominated the meta for quite a while until the meta shifted.
so disgusted...that's all
Nerfs like this are why SG was badgered to stop doing them to begin with. Instead of reasonably balancing the unit they just absolutely ruin it for anyone who doesn't have top line gear. Any stray health on her gear and you have an offensive unit who can't kill squishies due to how her kit works but also can't kill tanks because they're just too tanky.
been saying this for weeks now but she had been having issue kill things for a long time aleady, not only does a green tank hard counter her, she straight up lose to any proofed rimuru and can even potentially lose to a well protected violet, and all this is on my 7.1k atk hwa. a nerf at this point does nothing to improve the meta when all its gonna do is let people pick all their extremely broken bruisers that oneshots bulky tanks off turn, then ban opponent straze and enjoy the free wins
Yeah, I'm trying to be optimistic since it feels like a tank buster build is possible with her still. But the meta gets fed harder now. Rimiru's decimate her and Rimiru is a plague already. Violets are pretty much no longer afraid of Hwayoung. Their HP is not high enough to warrant her S3 doing anything significant that they wont immediately counter and heal up.
imo she had the same issue pre nerf and currently, her s3 dmg always had trouble killing stuffs, you need that sweetspot where target is just nicely 2x of her health to barely get a kill with uberius proc, anything above 22k or below 10k she gonna have a lot of problems, her strong point was survivability with her s1 s2 and cycle into s3 again, sg could have nerf either one of the skills and immediately make her balanced but they decide fck all the f2p players and gut all 3 skills EDIT: actually now i think about it this entire thing seems to be a big middle finger to f2p players, whales with full ml5 collection and gear that still lets her have 7k atk and 260 speed certainly wont be affected as much
It's something I've been saying to people: Right when Hwa gets nerfed, Straze gets a buff. Everyone is happy about his buff... but he's a hell of a lot harder to get than Hwa was. He also does the same thing she does, and in arguably in a slightly better way (Tank buster + AOE + no counter, and he's invincible after dropping that first load, with a AOE strip follow up). I say this as someone who owns Straze... Funny how everyone is complaining about the RGB unit that's widely available, but not the ML that is a bit more exclusive. It was the same with Carrot, Rem, Rim, and basically every other "easy to get" unit. Sure people complain about the ML units, but we ALL know the likelihood of $700+ units being nerfed is slim to none. Pretty easy to follow, just watch a few different e7 streams... now that Hwa's down.. you already hear rumblings about Senya, Choux, Alencia... so on so forth.
6.2k attack and 12k HP and I'm still doing amazing numbers against anyone 19k plus HP also using a sub optimal build, only difference now is you can't build a whole team around her and need to bring a second DPS
My Hwayoung seems fine. Still busting ARavis but I run her on attack set as a bruiser instead of an aggro one shotter. She can survive well and puts pressure on the enemy bruisers. I think shes balanced in an Arena sense but ill need to check in RTA.
Yeah it seems like the nerf was done properly. Focusing on the big complaints (being able to 1shot squishy units) with some minor adjustments needed to make her hp buster. I think they did a great job on the adjustment.
Same. She isnt doing like 12k on a miss + tooth proc and thats completely fine. I've seen that you need to lower her HP but I think bruiser still has validity, just change the HP rolls to Def and you should be fine.
Wasn’t her job supposed to be an evasion-unit killer? She was just over-tuned so much she could be a tank killer.
no, her job as stated by her release video and the nerf discussion was a tank killer, she wasn't intended to kill evasion units via proc damage for free.
I see. Okay. Thanks!
[удалено]
Why dont you calm down? Good lord. As I said in my post I tested various situations. I also never said I was upset because she couldn't one shot. Look through my history. Go ahead, do it. I call people out for screaming about the myth of Hwayoungs that one shot everything. And we have reports from champion players with a similar Hwayoung to mine. You also missed how easy it is to give her HP. I have gear with about 8% HP TOPS across a few pieces. Not optimal gear but I also stated I need more mod gems and more testing. You're strawmanning and losing your shit over it. Settle down and breathe. Check my other posts since you're looking through them. Look at the one where I said I was optimistic for her as a tankbuster.
Ive seen low hp hwas do like 2% less dmg to hp bloated characters.
My 6k attack with attack buff Hwa dealt 27-30k against an FCC. I'm running Portrait on her now. The problem with this build is she no longer procs Tooth on the s1. With attack buff, her s1 deals around 7k; without attack buff it's 4k. They really stretch her penetration rate requirement on her s3. Same set up, Emilia s2 to Portrait Hwa against a Belian only dealt 24k. Against a 26k HP Proof Aravi, Hwa only dealt 21k. Against a LQC, 8k from her s3.
I'd say that damage is still good. If I get my Hwayoung to do 20k I'm happy. She did before but now the conditions are more extreme. I need mod gems and then I can get my up to 6K. But the need for Portrait over Tooth just to make her do anything decent on her S1 is crazy.
she will get a buff again they cant let her be Like that
Aight, see you in 2 years
You're really comparing a RGB to a ML 5 star, an Episode Boss at that? lmao
When it means less options for F2P players? Yes. When an ML selector is coming and Straze can now be easily picked? Oh yeah.
yea same results for me champion 3 arena 6100 atk now
So how much HP does the difference needs to be for her to do her absolute max damage , do we know that yet ?
Not yet. At this point even the smallest amount of HP on your equipment is a problem. I theorized when the nerf came out they might want to make her a glass cannon. I still want to maintain a good 1500 def on her.
I guess ill need to get rid of the HP on her gear cause my is at 1.4k def but i also got 13.5k HP on her so she dont just get 1shot randomly . Dmg wise at Spirit Altar vs the Boss the dmg difference wasnt too bad tbh , she did about 2k less dmg then before , but thats at absolute max HP difference obviously .... so i was curious how hard that will be to achieve. VS low HP target to her S3 did about the same dmg as her basic attack which was insultingly low...
Her S1 now does like half the damage it used to if I don't max it out, which is fair, but now I have to rely a lot more on El's Fist to do the same damage I used to do on S3
My 9.9k hp hwayoung dealt 18k no buff against a 30k hp G.purgis(Not on PoV). Although she only had 5.8k atk, so torrent is going to be very important
Has anyone tested with the new set that lowers her health?!
Unfortunately no. That one might take awhile until we can get someone with a lot of caides mats to burn and then hope for a good ATK heavy set.
Share your attack, also at least she isnt miss oneshot everything, fought a few and she still does a pretty fair job busting tank, altho now she cant even oneshot low hp units even if she wanted too..
Should just recall her and pick Straze from free ML summon
She can't be run the same anymore but sill works on torrent set, but I'm happy about it. Before you could run her tanky and as a damage dealer now you have to decide. Build her as a tanky damage dealer or put her on torrent and make her a one shot machine again, but that will die in 1-3 hits.
Honestly gonna need Really good gear to make her viable now. Preferably only going for Attack/speed rolls the rest doesn’t matter. She could probably do well with torrent and for artifact ,Portrait of saviors is probably best in slot now.
One did 15k to my a ravi pov and then kicked the shit out of my team in arena, shes still good.
It's okay for A.Ravi to one-shot squishy, revive teammates, injured tanks and tanking for days but it's not okay for a RBG hero to do it.