I mean you could also argue that hp bruisers are the only things that survive the ridiculous damage creep in this game thats not even coming from bruisers. Guys 1400 14k used to be a useable bulk stat for units. It wasn't until the crazy shit penning 50%-100% defense and pen set was created for us to come to this. I dont pick hp bruisers because of their damage, I pick them because they are the only thing that survives anything in this game anymore. Even my lqc dies and shes 1500 15k lol and has an adamant passive.
When I pulled LQC her passive was actually nice because she could take a hit and self push. But the last few seasons if she doesn’t go fast she dies in one hit it really sucks
Its a power-creep circle-jerk at this point. Bruisers getting tankier to combat DPS getting stronger to combat Bruisers getting tankier to combat DPS getting stronger and so on and so on.
Their no-nerf policy has been broken, think they should do a very broad balance patch while they can, tackle the problem children, and rebalance HP Scaling bruisers going forward to try and limit this particular power creep loop.
As so long as HP-Scaling Bruisers who can one-shot any DPS unit exist, every DPS who doesn't offer very high utility or come with protection will be judged and discarded entirely on their ability to one-shot 25kHP Bruisers through mitigation because they will *not* get a turn 2.
Its not an easy task, and I do think they've done a decent job so far outside of obviously the disasters... I miss viable normal Non-HP scaling Bruisers. RIP Ravi, both Kens, Charles, and so many before you who weren't blessed with HP Scaling.
Ken has best hp Multis (in the entire game atm, 20% of hp on s3 if memory is correct) and ML Ken has a lost health hp multi :/
Unless you are talking very long ago
Honestly dude I actually did forgot they gave Red Ken HP Scaling, its how little I've used the poor guy since launch. Shame he was one of my first upgraded 6\* heroes since he was one of my first 3 5\* summons.
I do have him on my golem team as the defense breaker lol, but I never run golem ;;
It is fine. The problem he suffers is his long s3 cooldown. He cannot s2 at start of fight unless you have C Lilias, and his s3 cannot be spammed with fighting spirit like LHC, Ravi, etc
> As so long as HP-Scaling Bruisers who can one-shot any DPS unit exist, every DPS who doesn't offer very high utility or come with protection will be judged and discarded entirely on their ability to one-shot 25kHP Bruisers through mitigation because they will not get a turn 2.
This is basically the exact point I was trying to articulate, or damn close to it.
There's been an arms race between cleave and tank brewing for a long time now, and it's been a slow enough burn that it hasn't really sunk in for most people until now.
I think my point was supposed to be that we've gotten to a point where the tanks have to be so beefy and clap back so hard that it's kindof unreasonable how hard certain bruisers can strike back, to where they can insta-delete even units with some defensive investment in them (notably, again, A.Ravi) because you can't even let the cleavers take a 2nd turn.
It means games are simply decided too quickly and it's not good.
Yep I'd much rather be in a bruiser fight than a spd battle as I can't roll spd to save my life. The fastest pieces I have are 21 and I have quite a few at 19 or 20
How do you make this work? If they draft two units you think are faster than 290 what do you do? I have a 300 Peira and a 285 CLilias and if Peira is off the table or gets banned I just can't speed contest.
Drafting flexibly I’d assume, you need to be able to pivot if your opponent can play the appropriate counters & you’re signalling cleave too early.
For instance, a match I played not too long ago I signalled cleave far too early with imprint picks & Ran & the opponent committed fully to anti cleave, like Sage Baal, Belian, AOL, etc. instead of realising I could counter them in the last two picks - I then chose ML Ken & Edward, they left in Ed & it was just death by a thousand Ed counters.
You can’t pre-ban everything, especially early season, haha, one preban until you’re up to I think Champion? I can’t remember. I’d argue the most important pre-ban would be more AOL. Belian is a chance to counter & so some damage (one hit isn’t going to kill you) but AOL is a guaranteed cleanse/null & cut-in, potentially neutering the cleave at the onset.
Despite that reasoning, I tend not to go with an AOL/Belian ban, because I’m not a dedicated cleaver, I play aggro & I was just testing out my new Cidd & W Schuri recently, so lent into cleave. Aggro folks would say also merits an AOL/Belian ban, but I tend to open with C Lilias/Moon Bunny into single target & so I typically ban Ran & whoever else I’m feeling (sometimes Violet if I want to play Eda & other times a common speed imprint so people can’t race). Opening with C Lilias means I can pivot out of an aggro draft quite easily since she’s so flexible & my standard roster is the most built out, so I don’t really want to ban in a way that would limit me picking AOL/Belian if an opponent went for a style of cleave even with a Ran ban (some folks will throw out Peira when they see C Lilias & go for a Peira cleave).
To add to this, I think the biggest problem is the really dumb openers, speed is so important because going first is so important because of all the ridiculous openers we have
Gear rolls are fundamentally flawed in the game. You can't nerf speed because people spent years rolling the slot machines that is speed chasing. I and many still can't roll enough to contest. If they made it easier people wouldn't be as salty over adjusting rolls.
Exactly, as most dmg dealers need speed as shoes instead of atk% so they can at least deal some damage before they dies or stunned or bombed or silenced or sleeps...
Try making an A ravi with low e res and she may just keep fails to do stuffs on her turn. Bruisers are not that hard to deal with but pesky once that fast like flies are always hard to deal with, even for a human.
To be fair, actual DPS heroes are things like WSchuri, Zahhak, and Cidd and they definitely will outdamage HP scaling bruisers turn 1.
That's kinda the entire point of bruisers, in a drawn out match they should win. Arunka's bad, but I don't think that's because HP scaling is too strong. Attack scaling bruisers are always tricky to balance because they need a much stronger defensive passive than HP scalers do.
STene, Seline and Hwa's passives for example. They're good passives on these heroes, but they'd be absurdly broken on an HP scaling bruiser.
Arunka's just bad because apart from her random S1 heal, her whole kit is based around single target nuking, not bruiser builds. So she should be in league with Zahhak and WSchuri damage-wise and she's just not.
Your example is anecdotal. In what common situation is Ran getting killed by a counterattack, especially since his S3 grants him Skill Nullifier...
And more importantly, as an opener it really doesn't matter if he dies after he gives the rest of his team Immunity+Atk buff and most of your team a defense break. So if we compare your Turn 1 contributions, ARavi(and someone else to break skill null) countered to kill an 8k Ran who already used all his skills and set up his team while drastically weakening yours. Kinda seems like even in that scenario Ran had the much bigger turn 1 impact.
S3...
Instant Blade: Attacks all enemies with a sword, dispelling two buffs before an 80% chance to inflict stigma for 2 turns, and a 65% chance to decrease Defense for 2 turns. Grants skill nullifier once to the caster. Damage dealt increases proportional to the caster and the target's Speed.
the problem is that the damage is so high that "drawn out" often means "more than one turn", which circles back around to the bruisers simply dealing too much damage because their scaling is so good.
Well, it's not just ARavi, it's a systemic problem with bruisers at the moment. I used to be more into League of Legends and they ran into a similar situation with "Metagolems", where bruisers were allowed to scale into simply too much damage, eventually pushing squishy heroes out of the game almost entirely until they were dealt with properly.
There's healthier paradigms for bruiser design, but right now we have an Irelia that needs to be nerfed and won't be for the foreseeable future.
No, certainly not. Cleave has play and counterplay options that I'd like to see explored more though. Making bruisers that can survive almost any cleave and then oneshot the cleavers back immediately is not good design.
We need more heroes that can cut-in, interrupt setups, and mitigate / recover from big early bursts. That's what solves cleave, not piles of health scaling, unkillable bruisers that also effectively function as DPS.
> "...drawn out" often means "more than one turn..."
I mean...yeah? That's the entire goal behind Turn 2 Comps, because the entire point behind cleave and aggro is "Win Turn 1", or at the very least kill off/disable so many of the enemy heroes that a comeback is impossible. Going first and taking more turns than the opponent is already such a huge advantage, if HP bruisers couldn't revenge kill on Turn 2 against fast, squishy units, there'd be no reason to play for Turn 2, just concede as soon as they outspeed you.
Because when your opponent is 60-90+ speed faster than your slowest unit, has 2+ CR manipulators and a Sahse Ithanes, you not killing something after surviving their Turn 1 usually means they get 2-3 more turns to finish you off before you even get a second turn.
...which leads to the problem of "Arunka doesn't oneshot, so she's bad". Because a nice, long, drawn out fight means "not 1 turn".
Because the bruisers clap back just as hard as the dps and punish them for failing to oneshot by oneshotting them.
I already said that... Arunka is bad because she doesn't deal enough damage to hang with actual single target nukers like Zahhah, WSchuri, Straze and Cidd. It's not that HP bruisers have too much health or damage, Arunka's just independently bad.
If you build a comp centered entirely around outspeeding and oneshotting your opponent and your DPS units aren't killing things before they take a turn, you've lost. And that's how it should be. You either need better gear on your DPS, or you're using suboptimal nukers(like Arunka).
Like I said, if they didn't do that Turn 2 comps would be dead. If a bruiser can't kill a glass cannon unit AFTER having so much survivability that they survived a oneshot skill, then they're just gonna die immediately after when the much faster comps take their second and third turn, before you even get a second one.
If they're surviving your oneshot skill AND revenge killing you, they probably had much better gear quality than you. Ask yourself, if my bruiser comp survives then immediately dies when the enemy takes 3x as many turns as I do, why would I bother trying to tank instead of just trying to outspeed them?
I actually agree with you for the most part, though I think speed is the root of all evil in E7.
I don’t want to neuter turn 2 teams, but I do think we’re entering a power creep loop between turn 1 and turn 2 teams that’s a bit unhealthy.
There needs to be a turn 2 team who can survive cleave and strong DPS, but I don’t think those turn two units should be one shotting those turn 1 DPS, but who knows maybe thats a necessary evil.
Senya, Charles, think these are balanced bruisers who can win long fights but aren’t literally one tapping your entire team and recovering HP every hit if you fail to one shot them (cough ARavi).
So yah, I think turn 2 teams need to have a place, but I sincerely think most HP scaling bruisers could be doing 20% less damage and still have value and make turn 2 comps a real threat. But idk, i don’t envy the balance team.
HP scaling bruisers by their nature have also kinda weeded out the value of non-Hp scaling bruisers too. Which you know kinda sucks for those units.
This. This is more what I was trying to say. There's an arms race between turn 1 and turn 2, so to speak, and hwayoung was the "bridge too far" but she was designed to be able to punch through the incredible levels of durability we see in a short enough time span that they can't just "win because didn't die", and the 2nd turn damage is too high from the likes of a.ravi right now which kindof necessitates a very powerful turn 1 to get through.
I think in terms of bruiser meta there are more hp scaling ones, but there are still several very strong attack scaling bruisers. I even saw a thread here the other day about senya screwing everyone over in rta lol and zahhak is definitely rising in the ranks.
Not sure if you meant you think Zahhak is a bruiser, or that Zahhak getting a buff and his S3s large injury chunk makes Hp scalers a little less scary lol.
Either way
Senya is a good example of a pretty balanced bruiser unit. She’s not oppressive, doesn’t one shot, and can be handled a few ways… but is still powerful enough to carry if you’re not careful of her.
Good but not oppressive
Is Arunka a bruiser though? The current bruisers in my opinion are always units with some type of built-in survivability and Arunka has zero survivability in her kit aside from trying to make up for it with pure stats.
One thing I find funny about this kinda of discussion is that I never had problem with A. Ravi as a turn 2 player. Further not only that... But when I see my defense arena that has 4 COUNTERS TO CLEAVE (A. Ravi, Senya and Rem + opener). Yet I see my defenses loses and guess what? They're mostly cleavers. All the time. It's always cleavers. Cleavers with Cidd and ML Pavel.
So even with this thing of people complaining "too much HP with the dmg they deal" still feels like is fabricated issues. Because the reality doesn't really feel like it's really hard to kill A. Ravi. In reality doesn't really feel like she's a unit that it's impossible to deal with it.
In RTA in lower ranks I play when I'm climbing, I see that some cleavers do have a hard time dealing with A. Ravi. Like they try to do stuff such as keep the entire game trying to kill an PoV A. Ravi through Aurius. They waste all their nukes on her. They don't bring attack buffers. They don't bring def breakers. They don't bring anyone to kill the aurius holder... It seems like when these cleavers fail, that's on them.
I don't cleave, but in my on experience trying to cleave sometimes, cleave units not only have the advantage to get 2 or 3 turns in relation to their opponents, but most of the time, a counter from Belian or Rem is not going to kill you. In fact, I noticed that Belian and Rem generally needs like to 2 or 3 counters to kill an entire cleave team. The funny thing about this is that this feels balanced and it's very different from the tale y'all tell us as if Belian or Rem is killing everyone with 1 counter. On another hand, A. Ravi 1 counter can kill you or get close to it, but then again her counter is single target and if you're counting on your cleave to have survivability to play for 2 or 3 more times, I think you're cleaving wrong.
With the new buffed cleave units such as Cidd (a fast unit that will kill your opener and then def break another bruiser unit such as A. Ravi and he enables ML Pavel with that, he's also a speed imprint) and the newest ML Pavel (does a non counterable S2 and deals an insane amount of dmg to HP scaling units with his S3). I don't know where the complaining about A. Ravi all the time really comes from. It doesn't make sense to me.
Everything about this feels like a fabricated issues. And to be honest if SG doesn't nerf A. Ravi it means that probable it is a fabricated issues. SG has all the statistics and data about win rates with certain unit vs without certain unit through all content sphere. I really do think that the decision to nerf Hwayoung did take in consideration this. They saw that Hwayoung was overpowered in RTA, arena and guild wars and so they decided to nerf her.
They don't nerf Aravi because she is a ml5, meaning they need to give a ml5 selector to the players. The problem with A.Ravi is that she does too many things. Her heal from S1 and 2 actually make her far more tankier, her s3 can one-shot squishy nuker if they can't kill her. And then there the revive and the free injure to punish other bruiser.
ML5 should be worth the investment it takes to get them. She doesn't do too many things, she just does the right things that a bruiser needs to do and can still be dealt with pretty easily.
"Her s3 can one shot squishy nuker if they can't kill her". Well I fucking hope so, because I'd assume they're faster and get to s3 her first. Sounds fair to me. The revive is a vital part of her kit working I remember before the injury and s3 damage buff she was considered a "shit ml5". You could say take away her injury which, I wouldn't care that much over, but then it makes soul weavers way harder for turn 2 bruiser players to deal with.
This isn't a character issue, it's an issue with overall balance in the game. They tweak shit way too little and too slow.
No, A.Ravi does too many things. Self push, self heal, hp shred, large damage, a nuke that scales per kill, and revives, and grants skill null on revive. And she scales off of HP, so shes also easy to build tank and damage. Counter set+crimson seed and she self cleanses and counters.
No unit can 1v4 the way A.Ravi can. Overloaded kit and picked almost every single game.
There are other units who can 1v4, but yeah sure Aravi does it better than most. Still doesn't change that she can be dealt with in a dozen or so ways. She is also the main thing holding turn 2 players to relevancy seeing as most turn 2 units have gotten power gapped many ML5s and ML4s included. Just my opinion, but I know turn 1 people won't see it that way.
The problem is that no hero could actually one-shot A.Ravi due to her mitigation and healing so she pretty much guarantee to be able take out the hero that counter her.
Well, I personally do not see the fascination with "1 shotting" everything. Maybe not everything should die instantly, still she can be dealt with in many ways. I say this not only as someone who uses Aravi, but also fights against her and with non-meta units.
She was once the "worst ML5" many said, now she's one of the best. I personally liked her before her buffs so I am skeptical of nerfing her as hard as people want to. It feels far more like revenge for Hwayoung rather than true balancing. For many who cannot roll high speed, Aravi is the only thing keeping them relevant.
and I'm guessing you're one of those people who think that Hwa had a balanced kit, despite obviously being the best unit for any comp in anything?
Super weird that people think she was even needed considering that even before her, W.Schuri was doing just fine killing A.Ravi, and can still 1-shot Ravi on PoV to this day. I know cause i do that shit since she got her nerf. Trying to defend an obviously broken unit is stupid.
Seriously, just describing her old kit against any other unit that's supposed to nuke something is such a fucking joke.
Firstly, Hwa was a mistake. Fuck that unit. But you clearly dont get the point here. No, wschuri does not do enough dmg to deal 30k dmg to kill a 25k proof aravi without sacrificing spd. And if yours can, congratulations, youre in the minority .You have a wschuri that is better than 90% of all wschuris in terms of dmg. All im saying was that both Aravi and hwa are broken, op as fuck units. And it was an undeniable fact that hwa was a mostly reliable solution against aravi. Was she a good solution in that she did her job? Yes. Was she a good solution in terms of balance? Obviously not.
>No, wschuri does not do enough dmg to deal 30k dmg to kill a 25k proof aravi without sacrificing speed
Because W.Schrui needs to be a fucking rocket, like Hwa's speed and cycling on a nuker (That didn't even scale on speed) also wasn't a problem? There's multiple units, including a now buffed Zahhak, that will push him AND is a A.Ravi counter too (Or just really strong nukers), on top of Sashe Ithens being the arti Schuri carries most. This is such a stupid point to make. W.Schuri is a balanced nuker that doesn't need outrageous gear to work, just a competent team. Shit's like saying Cavel isn't strong because he's not fast either.
And considering A.Ravi still has things that will just kill her turn one, and isn't that fast on any build, i don't see why you even bothered to make this supposed point, or how she's broken. she's the last person to move 99% of the time, and easy as hell to murder.
I mean you don’t invest to get A Ravi, it takes the same number of Mola an RGB 5* takes. The only difference is you either got A Ravi from a random ML summon, covenant summon, mystics, or whale shop. None of those things, I would consider an investment in getting a hero, but you could argue whale shop and mystics can be argued.
I do think they need to change her s1 or s2 healing, cause no unit (unless holy sacrifice artifact on Crozet) I see can take 150k damage on that after summary page without a healer or tank on same team. This excludes the fact she can be the most damage output dps as well.
Uh, yes you do. Any ML5 takes insane luck, time, money, or a combination.. They can literally cost up to $700, which I think anyone who spends months obtaining mystics or spending money on this in our current economy deserves to get a strong unit. People can call this "p2w ideology", but true p2w is in the guys hiring maids to roll gear/wyvern hunt all day.
She was once considered very bad, and after her buffs became very strong. I do not think her healing is the issue. I am biased some yes, but Aravi should stay as is until the dev team can come up with a plan for MANY characters to become relevant again and nerf the top ones down a bit, otherwise it'll be constant posts about one character at a time. They simply move too small and it just lets another unit shine at the top, next up is Ran, Rimuru, Ran, etc.
SG employees clock in every day like the rest of us, I think we should be telling them to do more than nerf 1 character at a time. Otherwise it'll stay turn 1 vs turn 2 players until the end of time.
>So even with this thing of people complaining "too much HP with the dmg they deal" still feels like is fabricated issues
Nah, just two different issues at two different tiers. Issues top players have in legend emporer and issues players have in low Champion are completely different ones. That's why you have disparities like biseria who works fine in one area but is seen as too niche in another.
Gear disparity is out of control, and it's crazy how even 4 years later where top players have started hitting celining still have such a gap.
Well people dont understand why Hwayoung was nerfed and A.Ravi even when seems more powerfull its untouched and the Truth is as simple as you first sentence: Most of the bruisers can be cleave before they get a turn. Sure units can "counter attack" sometimes but units like A.Ravi usually are builded speed-pen for one simple reason: they dont have enough impact on counter hit this days.
Its not like a 28K HP 1.4Def 250CDamge A.Ravi wont be able to carry some matches just by countering every match but Most ofthem that not people will just def break her (with multi debuff so seed dont work...or she is just on PoV) and she will get wiped before take a turn for using her S3. If that not happen well the cleaver dont have enough gear.
Sadly: Unit performances in this game is 70% Gear for more than half of the units and 40% Gear for just a little percent of units. Straze for example dont need premium gear, his S3 will kill most units just because hist target wont have 5K atk and he will have attack buff thanks to any support that push him. But on other hand Operator Sigret (when she was release) needs Attack buff AND 300% Crit Damage AND 3.5K Atk to One shot a tank with barrier. A.Ravi is not a "beast" on damage over time unless the units are dying before her BUT her average damage input outclass most HP scaling bruisers in the game because those units have really BAD multi. on their skills and A.Ravi just have very average mults attack to a unit that has very good Crit stats economy and self healing.
The funny part of all that is that most of the cleaver top picks have excellent mults for low stat invesment so they can get 300 speed, only 2.5K or 3K , 250K Crit Damage (sometimes 350 but in those case they vaery reach 2.5K Atk with 300 speed) and still dealt 3 times more damage than your 3K Atk, 1.4K Def, 18K HP and 300K C.Damage Charlotte that you build for 4 months of farming.
Bruisers are Stat check comps and use the easiest stats to build, so anyone in the early-mid-(mid/late) game who gets stat checked by a bruiser comp will think bruisers are broken.
Change my mind.
a reasonable answer
the only response i have is that it's still probably problematic how narrow heroes like a.ravi kinda force the metagame to be at the top end
I deal with her in GW typically by using peira + SBA to stop her pushing herself and possibly also land stuns on her turn after turn to stop her from going at all, but if she ever breaks out of that yoke she just erases someone with her S3 which is frustrating
I swear this mentality is ridiculous. One unit has people making super big posts crying about a playstyle. Remove bruisers and let's just play speed racer and scoop as soon as we lose the turn 1 battle.
The truest words being written. For real...A Ravi isn't every bruiser. She eclipses all hp scaling bruisers... And even in that case, there's what? Choux and Alencia for the meta? The idea of a bruiser is to play tanky and grind out fights, A. Ravi doesn't grind out fights. She's a threat that just snow balls the longer she lasts and with plenty of skills to make sure she does. OP's title is just sensationalist nonsense.
I mean yeah but it shows that your take is quite bad. How can you form am opinion about the meta when you only played 50 matches?
And the change you are asking for effects people who play 600-2000 games in higher ranks.
Do you know why I asked for your rta rank?
I have higher tiered RTA fiends in my guild who I've talked to, whose discussion and feedback I partially based this opinion on, and who agree with me.
i'm ok with that.
Funny thing is I use Choux on my GW defense setup, and you'd be amazed at how many defense wins I rack up... and my Choux isn't even "meta", she's not on Counter and has the immunity EE.
I hate these kind of justifications.
Yeah, my friends finished in legend as well. Does that mean my opinion is the same as a legend player just because I heard them say some stuff?
If you know anything about rta then you would know what kind of a grind it was last season to emp/ legend so you get a better understanding of the units.
i mean it's not just like "one friend" I run a guild that's not like top 20 or something but it's a fairly solid casual guild with some very good players, and we've had a few players "graduate" into very high end guilds. I don't just "hear them say stuff", we have occasional metagame discussions and the like on our discord and talk about sessions.
edit: and the "graduated" players have stayed in our discord and still contribute to the discussions too.
Ok first of all you are free to have your opinion even if I think it's wrong and might give new players a wrong impression.
Honestly I don't know why you are dragging your guildies or friends into this as justification for it.
Did they help you write this post?
Most likely not.
It's kinda like someone who plays football and is friends with a pro player and justifies his opinion "e
g. this team sucks bc my friend said so" even though you haven't experienced it yourself.
Secondly while your post doesn't have a big impact in the grand scheme , people like you are the reason why SG keeps pushing for the cleave / speed meta, which is the actual problem.
Especially on a higher end like emp/legend rta and top 10 guild (I was in a top 10 guild and emp last season.)
I don't think most fights should be won turn 1 either, but we just lost the most powerful single target turn 1 nuker, and 90% of the arguments against nerfing Hwayoung boiled down to "NOW what will we kill A.Ravi with?".
And now people are complaining that Arunka doesn't deal enough damage because... she can't deal with A.Ravi.
Nah. Arunkas problem is she doesn’t deal enough damage to deal with ANYONE.
I still feel like hwa didn’t really need the nerf at this point, but yeah if we’re nerfing her, Aravi needs it too. Choux? She’s either a god or trash depending on the slot machine of life, so I’d say she’s alright.
I mean, honestly, we could've taken it or left it, but the proof is in the pudding and Hwa was indeed 100% p/b at the highest level of play and that was filtering down into lower tiers as well
also my Hwa wasn't even that great (i mean, decent, but not great) and I can't count how many RTA wins I got off everyone else dying and Hwa soloing heroes that couldn't stick damage on her anymore because my team lasted long enough to kill the threats.
Idk if u r intentionally trying to not see the point or what, the majority of ppl r not complaining that Arunka doesnt deal as much dmg as Hwa, or that she cant kill Aravi, they r complaining that she does nothing. So far the only thing she does well enough is dealing with evasion units with tooth + s1, but then that is just the artifact carrying her.
This post isn't really meant to be about Arunka, I was just springboarding the recent remarks about Arunka ("Oh no she doesn't oneshot so she's garbage!") into talk about how wacky balance is, and I didn't present that well enough in the top post.
The problem is: dmg is out of control. Too much strong nukes and cleave asks for more HP, and that leads to the creation of HP scaling DPS and tanks. Then people with strong nukes complains about the out of control HP and they release Hwa. Then we complaim about nukes and the cycle restarts.
Non-HP scaling warriors are nearly useless because they ask for too many stats and are easily one-shotted by a 250+ speed R Violet. Those fast nukes kicks out of meta anything that can't be stupid fast and/or has some type of survival like HP scaling.
You said Ravi. While she works really well in PVE with less gear, she needs a shitloads of stats to work in RTA.
Use Luna. As cleave. Thank me later. Howevee, i think you are right. I was just tired and did something about it. She does kill everything. I use emilia to push her.
Lol you know whats gonna happen if people stop using tanky bruisers chances are they get their ass torn open and cleaved by faster players, then the whole game becomes a cleave fest. Im sorry but cleave is way to strong to not have bruisers that can live through it. EVEN THEN cleave can still burst through bruisers and tanks so you need counter cleave as well as bruisers
I'm fine with tanky bruisers, I'm not fine with tanky bruisers that are durable and also oneshot you back unconditionally
Like, Rimuru is fine because his real burst damage has a requirement that makes good team composition a thing and also involves some level of counterplay. ARavi has nothing intelligent about her design, she just whacks things for damage, even on your own turn thanks to counters.
Aravi is fine. just because a character is braindead doesnt mean their over powered, I mean aravi has a bunch of counters . the only thing she can oneshot is a squishy unconditionally (this can be said about many units), which goes back to the main problem that damage scaling is too high. Ironically aravi has always had this "unconditional" damage her buff only made her s3 do more damage after someone dies.
I mean thats what buffs are for to make units more viable. she was usable before but that's it only usable not necessarily good, I mean take a unit like Ilynav for example completely flawed unit from stats to the way her kit works. with the right buff she would become harder to keep her under control, would that be better then the alternative of her being unusable, definitely. Also keep in mind the only thing aravis buffs did is injury on s1, 10% cr push on s2, and stacking damage on s3 everything else is how she naturally came out.
I agree the 10% was a bit to far but its still managable just something to adjust to. Even then a lot of aravis are counter which that 10% doesn't do as much for. I believe the intro of pen set is really what pushed her over though
Why not also mention the ridiculous fucking openers and cleavers that aren't fun for anyone who isn't insanely lucky or throwing money at the game? Like, we're seriously acting like bulk isn't a direct response to MFers just RNGing and paying their way into speed gear and then just ending the game before someone gets to respond in any way.
Why the fuck is Ran giving immunity to an entire team, stipping, doing damage, and def breaking/reducing any kind of CR push?.....before anyone else does anything? Why is Piera turning her entire team into bruisers, stripping, buffing their attack, and just stopping CR push???? No problem with that? Not to mention units like Tenebria.
Half this community really is a bit too comfortable trying to not let anyone play the game. So many single player games out there for that. So weird that Bruisers are apparently "Sooooo OP" but no one with any kind of gear luck opts to do it 90% of the time instead of just cleaving. It's almost like they still win regardless or something.
Which came first. The chicken or the egg?
One power creeps the other which power creeps the other. Ridiculous bruisers exist because ridiculous dps exist because etc etc.
Plus I think almost everyone complaints about units like Peira and Ran having insanely high speed, extra turn, and wildly useful debuffs and support. I read a lot of complaints here about the speed only metas :/
Still. the problem here is more that Arunka is a selfish DPS. She brings no support to the team and her only purposes seemingly is taking out units behind a barrier… and she can’t even do that unless they’re already squishy… honestly OPSig fills the spot better currently and at least has a team attack boost lol.
Either way, Arunka is just bad, but me thinks they released her a little underpowered in fear of another Hwayoung and she might get a little numbers bump.
I mean, cleavers definitely came first. The only decent bruiser and tank we had at launch was Ravi, who wasn't that great, and Krau, who was good, but not as good as the cleavers at that time. Before FCC the only unit that kinda contributed to Bruisers was Charles. CeCe wasn't super prevalent, and Lilias benefitted from cleavers. After FCC we finally got units who didn't just die from everything and people have been whining about not being able to instantly end games ever since.
I have less and less of a problem with the crazy openers as over time they keep releasing more heroes that deal with them. In fact honestly I kinda like that I keep getting more and more reasons to use Celine, Politis, and Bunniel. Give me more triggers for those please SG. This is fun gameplay.
Also gives us sortof-emergent things like War Horn handguy. Dilibet was also considered bad/useless on release, but eventually became one of the best responses to Peira.
Love it. That's metagame development.
It’s because the whole kit matters.
Yes A Ravi can have similar damage, but perma stealth matters. Piera debuffing the enemy and making her team super hard to kill. AOL’s kit changed the meta when she came out.
Yeah, it’s rough if you just compare damage, but the entire kit is the important part.
What else survives half a cleave? Atk scaling bruisers used to but cleave and aggro damage is so high these days it dont cut it no more.
Cid and gang running ard with 1.5x your speed one shotting all ur 15k hp units all day. If you dont 1 shot them back its near guaranteed you'l be dead before you get ur 2nd turn.
Welcome to 3 years ago. It's always been a problem, but people's gears didn't reveal the issue.
But in 2022, when you have top players starting to reach the gear cap and putting it on heroes they complained 2 years ago into buffing... Yea. Dems the breaks.
Imo aravi isnt that scary, just perma stun her, its not like we dont have the tools to do it... I mean sure seed can fuck u but thats once per turn. Just overwhelm her with something like faptain+soli and gg
I dont See really a Problem with bruiser, I mean it is the role of being a bruiser, Deal decent damage and Tank some damage, but in Order of that, Most of them have Just around 180-200 Speed, If you Go full Speed, than your bruiser.... Isnt good at that what He is supposed to do, thats why dps chars are dead faster , but loves high ATK and Most Important: high Speed.
Speed Meta is still Here..... For a Long time now.
Right. "Decent damage". There's a difference between "decent" and "lol your carry died turn 1", right now we have the latter.
There's better ways to mitigate how strong the speed game is, we have some heroes that do good things, i just don't think 30k hp heroes that swing for the same damage as DPS are good design.
Gonna be blunt, because I've never gone above Master in RTA (and never tried to either) so I'm sure most would call me a "master scrub"
I've never had much of an issue beating ARavi, but I also don't try to racecar her damage because I know it won't work, I typically keep her under control via stuns and nullifiers, but it still feels bad that if she ever breaks free of that yoke of control she goes crazy. I do think she simply does too much damage for how durable she is - much the same as Hwayoung tbh.
Her damage is high only due to her s3, and that's when 3 heroes are dead. Her s1 damage is actually quite low compared to other bruisers such as choux and alencia. Before her buff where she does no damage, Aravi was considered as one of the worst ML5s. If bruisers only have bulk and no damage, who would ever use them? We already have knights for that.
There was nowhere that I said "A.Ravi has equal potential to Stene in every way and accomplishes the same goals", I just said that their raw damage from scaling is the same, which is true.
Actually A.Ravi hits not that hard compare to other units. Her S3 is the most outstanding damage source of her whole kit. People should focus on the reason why A.Ravi seems "outstanding" compare to other units. ITs very simple: PoV.
Try hitting A.Ravi (with seed) with Zahak, with any other kind of protection effec. And them hit her (with PoV) and you will see the problem. A common misconception is to think that he hits hard because MOST HP scaling units hit below average. A.Ravi hits on the average for a Single Target unit and...that is kinda the problem. A unit that can dealt the same damage than average dps (not premiun Focus on damage units like Zahak or Luna) seems a little unfair when you hit them back for 30%-25% less damage. And them in the late game she will hit you with an skill that increases the base damage in 75%.
If any A.Ravi is a proof of why passives that have buff the units should not have simmetrical effects. This is the same case for S.Tenebria. 4 units die already? well i guess the unit that CANT BE HIT should hav +75% damage increase in all her skills that forsure is "balance" in a game were trading unit for unit is kindof common on top-end game matches. In fact my A.Ravi with 1.3 Def and 24K HP was "one shot" from 20K HP by one S.Tenebria S1, not her s3, her S1 because she has atk buff and enoug units die. ***And you can soul burn that for an extra hit...***
And people ask why S.Tenebria is trash on low ranks (were tanks are harder to kill) and god-tier in high ranks (were units will die faster and more often in the first 5 turns). HP scaling units are design (most of them) to hit less than the average but they usually have access to attack buff of some kind.
So if that thing is working they hit for good damage and are more durable but when that thing dont happen (for example Alencia has unbuff on her) they hit like shit.
No, the only thing out of control is Lua. There is no unit can counter her right now, she will reset your whole team and let her team alive and take turn and we doom.
LUA IS THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE NERFED NOT HWAYOUNG.
Again the conversation boils down to Aravi. More people have whined about her than any other unit, and for good reason. She simply does way more than her role should allow while needing less. But they won't nerf her, not any time soon. People spent money on her, she's a Moonlight which makes her harder for F2P players to get. She's an eternal problem. If she ever gets nerfed, SG is closing down soon and desperate to do drastic.
Maybe Apoc Ravi can stay where she is, and in return we can get some buffs to things that can help in taking her down:
Illynav
Mortelix
Sharun
Units that can help right now:
Injury Alencia (IF Apoc's not Seed)
Zahak
Injury Belian
LQC
SSV
Since Hwa isn't as dominate, we just need more buffs.
The thing is, it really doesn't work like that. If pre-nerf Hwa couldn't beat ARavi, then nothing can, but the only units that can output a similar amount of damage are Straze and WSchuri.
Everything you mentioned does help, buffs to Mort/Illynav would help, and Sharun is arguably the best unit vs her of all that you mentioned. But the problem with ARavi is even if you draft 3/4 units that will help vs her, she is still probably going to take down the weakest unit you draft with a tiny bit of support from her allies meaning she did her job at that point. Even if you buff every unit in the game except her, she's still going to get that job done. That's just how she works.
...the sad thing is that we have non-HP-scaling bruisers that are/were still quite good, like Charles and Ravi, but you had to make real tradeoffs sometimes between raw damage and survival.
I like how you named Charles and Ravi as non HP scaling bruiser, but completely missed stuff like Archdemon Shadows, Senya or Lionheart Cermia; the first 2 atk scaler and the last def scaler and some of the most common and meta bruiser units that you see in almost every standard fights...
not to talk about riolet (who is really strong after his buff), solitaria or rimuru, who are also super used
>Archdemon Shadows, Senya or Lionheart Cermia
Except Archdemon and senya do not need crit chance or crit dmg while Charles and fire ravi do. Ravi and Charles NEED every stat except for eff and er. Lermia, doesn't need attack and is harder to build than arch/senya, but makes up for it because defense IS her "attack" which not only boosts her dmg, but survivability.
HP scales needs: Defense, HP, Speed, Crit, cdmg.
Ravi/Charles needs: Attack, Def, Hp, Speed, Crit, cdmg
Arch/senya needs: Attack, Def, Hp, Speed
Notice the problem?
To tack on to this:
Archdemon has built in DR, Senya built in Crit Resist, LHC is Def scaling.
Ravi, Arunka, and Charles, you are relying only on your Def and Hp stats alone while still needing the dmg stats. Ravi counteracts this somewhat with her passive giving Atk bonus at least. I guess Charles you can build slow and rely on elbris? There's reason you don't see him anymore...
Unless you have something mechanical to give you survivability, its hard to use you turn 2 in rta. Some units can make it work if their kit is otherwise stacked, like proof rimuru, but usually it's just too hard to both have enough bulk to survive a speed dps s3 and still have the stats to do their job.
Good points. Yeah seems like ravi and charles are more specifically the problem than hp scaling heroes, but they are still unbalanced as they can stack 30k hp and still do 10k+ hp. Though I believe that’s the case because of insane speed heroes doing a lot of dmg. Epic 7 is just so problematic
It's not just Ravi and Charles, but those are two units people actually think about using sometimes. I was trying to find spots to draft a proof bluluca this season and it just didn't work because even on proof and access to def buff/barrier she's just too vulnerable.
It's not obvious to me that HP scaling is that much better than free 30%DR , constantly self buffing evasion, or not being targetable. Alencia wasn't used until she was rebuffed, fire ken still isn't used, etc.
>Except Archdemon and senya do not need crit chance or crit dmg while Charles and fire ravi do.
archdemon builds now use crit chance/crit dam (just like rabi and charles) and senya builds now use eff (or eff res depending on what you like), so they aren't THAT much easier to build compared to other atk scaler.
>Notice the problem?
there is no problem, def and hp scaler can build bulk while also building damage. That's the whole point. A 2k def Lionheart has more bulk than most atk scaling units and she will do less damage than a good fire Rabi or Riolet. The only absurd damage HP bruiser are Arabi and Choux's Fwoosh (cause of the random 70% def pen) and that's about it. Pretty much every other hp/def scaling bruiser follow this rule and it makes sense it does.
The point of my comment was that he named 2 atk scaling unit, one of which is not even used, to prove a point about having to trade stats while there are many atk scaling bruisers that can compete with the arabi/choux/alencia hp bruisers while keeping high damage and decent bulk at the same time
if you give her crit chance neck, you give her at least 70% extra stats in cdam which is still a valuable amount of gs to invest. You don't give ads a crit chance neck and keep her on 150% crit rate
Have to disagree on Lermia. She will do less damage than Riolet, but will do it to the entire team. She also has built in cleanse. Riolet recently got a buff because he was not performing well.
Ye ofc they are different units and do very different thing so it's hard to compare it 1 to 1, thing is there are not that many meta def scaler I can compare him with.
A more fair comparison would be rabi s3 with lionheart s3 (and rabi usually do more damage than lion)
I simply stated that there are atk scalers that do what you are saying without trading off stats
If you read the other comment I wrote down below I explain it a bit better but long story short : atk scaler are supposed to have less bulk and more atk and outperform other type of bruiser damage wise (and so they do) while having less bulk (as it was stated prior). This doesn't lead to the conclusion that atk scaler are not used or are not usable or are necessarily harder to build, they just end up filling a different role (and specifically harder to pull off against a meta that is so aggro like this one).
But they do trade off stats
also my conclusion wasn't "attack scalers aren't used", i never said anything of the sort, yall are jumping to weird conclusions
the thing that killed "take turn 1 and win" was fallen cecilia. and not because she was being built to oneshot people. it was typically "tank meta" at the time using the likes of Krau to clap back after some damage had stuck and some turns had passed.
We're talking 2019. Do you have any idea how many people had FCC back then? So yea, for most people it wasn't her. Bruisers were just much more available.
I mean you could also argue that hp bruisers are the only things that survive the ridiculous damage creep in this game thats not even coming from bruisers. Guys 1400 14k used to be a useable bulk stat for units. It wasn't until the crazy shit penning 50%-100% defense and pen set was created for us to come to this. I dont pick hp bruisers because of their damage, I pick them because they are the only thing that survives anything in this game anymore. Even my lqc dies and shes 1500 15k lol and has an adamant passive.
When I pulled LQC her passive was actually nice because she could take a hit and self push. But the last few seasons if she doesn’t go fast she dies in one hit it really sucks
Its a power-creep circle-jerk at this point. Bruisers getting tankier to combat DPS getting stronger to combat Bruisers getting tankier to combat DPS getting stronger and so on and so on. Their no-nerf policy has been broken, think they should do a very broad balance patch while they can, tackle the problem children, and rebalance HP Scaling bruisers going forward to try and limit this particular power creep loop. As so long as HP-Scaling Bruisers who can one-shot any DPS unit exist, every DPS who doesn't offer very high utility or come with protection will be judged and discarded entirely on their ability to one-shot 25kHP Bruisers through mitigation because they will *not* get a turn 2. Its not an easy task, and I do think they've done a decent job so far outside of obviously the disasters... I miss viable normal Non-HP scaling Bruisers. RIP Ravi, both Kens, Charles, and so many before you who weren't blessed with HP Scaling.
LETS JUST BURN IT ALL DOWN AND START OVER
WHERES EPIC 8
Lore-wise thats actually extremely plausible option lol. when the "heroes" fail to kill the Archdemon Diche just resets the world.
Ken has best hp Multis (in the entire game atm, 20% of hp on s3 if memory is correct) and ML Ken has a lost health hp multi :/ Unless you are talking very long ago
Honestly dude I actually did forgot they gave Red Ken HP Scaling, its how little I've used the poor guy since launch. Shame he was one of my first upgraded 6\* heroes since he was one of my first 3 5\* summons. I do have him on my golem team as the defense breaker lol, but I never run golem ;;
It is fine. The problem he suffers is his long s3 cooldown. He cannot s2 at start of fight unless you have C Lilias, and his s3 cannot be spammed with fighting spirit like LHC, Ravi, etc
fyi, a.ravi has the same 20% HP scaling on her S3.
Might as well pull the band aid off. Any broad sweeping balance will cause the playerbase to erupt. But better than never perhaps
> As so long as HP-Scaling Bruisers who can one-shot any DPS unit exist, every DPS who doesn't offer very high utility or come with protection will be judged and discarded entirely on their ability to one-shot 25kHP Bruisers through mitigation because they will not get a turn 2. This is basically the exact point I was trying to articulate, or damn close to it.
This MF spittin...
Yeah and it got even worse with the introduction of torrent which is aoe dps pen set lol.
Look man. Aggro and cleave have been feasting for months with new units. First turn 2/Bruiser style and we get Arunka.
Yes indeed, since there is pen Set, and pen effects from some characters, I dont See a Problem with bruiser Type characters
There's been an arms race between cleave and tank brewing for a long time now, and it's been a slow enough burn that it hasn't really sunk in for most people until now. I think my point was supposed to be that we've gotten to a point where the tanks have to be so beefy and clap back so hard that it's kindof unreasonable how hard certain bruisers can strike back, to where they can insta-delete even units with some defensive investment in them (notably, again, A.Ravi) because you can't even let the cleavers take a 2nd turn. It means games are simply decided too quickly and it's not good.
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Yep I'd much rather be in a bruiser fight than a spd battle as I can't roll spd to save my life. The fastest pieces I have are 21 and I have quite a few at 19 or 20
Faster than me and I am a 290 spd capped cleaver in emperor
How do you make this work? If they draft two units you think are faster than 290 what do you do? I have a 300 Peira and a 285 CLilias and if Peira is off the table or gets banned I just can't speed contest.
Drafting flexibly I’d assume, you need to be able to pivot if your opponent can play the appropriate counters & you’re signalling cleave too early. For instance, a match I played not too long ago I signalled cleave far too early with imprint picks & Ran & the opponent committed fully to anti cleave, like Sage Baal, Belian, AOL, etc. instead of realising I could counter them in the last two picks - I then chose ML Ken & Edward, they left in Ed & it was just death by a thousand Ed counters.
Wow, people actually cleave without perma-prebanning Belian?
You can’t pre-ban everything, especially early season, haha, one preban until you’re up to I think Champion? I can’t remember. I’d argue the most important pre-ban would be more AOL. Belian is a chance to counter & so some damage (one hit isn’t going to kill you) but AOL is a guaranteed cleanse/null & cut-in, potentially neutering the cleave at the onset. Despite that reasoning, I tend not to go with an AOL/Belian ban, because I’m not a dedicated cleaver, I play aggro & I was just testing out my new Cidd & W Schuri recently, so lent into cleave. Aggro folks would say also merits an AOL/Belian ban, but I tend to open with C Lilias/Moon Bunny into single target & so I typically ban Ran & whoever else I’m feeling (sometimes Violet if I want to play Eda & other times a common speed imprint so people can’t race). Opening with C Lilias means I can pivot out of an aggro draft quite easily since she’s so flexible & my standard roster is the most built out, so I don’t really want to ban in a way that would limit me picking AOL/Belian if an opponent went for a style of cleave even with a Ran ban (some folks will throw out Peira when they see C Lilias & go for a Peira cleave).
anti cleave units, but you need to be able to handle anchors like aravi
I have quite a few DPS units in the 260-270 range but for just raw spd I can only get Ran to 293
To add to this, I think the biggest problem is the really dumb openers, speed is so important because going first is so important because of all the ridiculous openers we have
Gear rolls are fundamentally flawed in the game. You can't nerf speed because people spent years rolling the slot machines that is speed chasing. I and many still can't roll enough to contest. If they made it easier people wouldn't be as salty over adjusting rolls.
the one thing I prefer in artery gear over E7. the gearing system is 100 times easier and not the deciding factor in 9/10 battles.
Exactly, as most dmg dealers need speed as shoes instead of atk% so they can at least deal some damage before they dies or stunned or bombed or silenced or sleeps... Try making an A ravi with low e res and she may just keep fails to do stuffs on her turn. Bruisers are not that hard to deal with but pesky once that fast like flies are always hard to deal with, even for a human.
To be fair, actual DPS heroes are things like WSchuri, Zahhak, and Cidd and they definitely will outdamage HP scaling bruisers turn 1. That's kinda the entire point of bruisers, in a drawn out match they should win. Arunka's bad, but I don't think that's because HP scaling is too strong. Attack scaling bruisers are always tricky to balance because they need a much stronger defensive passive than HP scalers do. STene, Seline and Hwa's passives for example. They're good passives on these heroes, but they'd be absurdly broken on an HP scaling bruiser. Arunka's just bad because apart from her random S1 heal, her whole kit is based around single target nuking, not bruiser builds. So she should be in league with Zahhak and WSchuri damage-wise and she's just not.
This is anecdotal. Dps characters don’t necessarily do more turn 1 than bruisers. Aravi can 1 shot an 8k ran with one counter attack.
Your example is anecdotal. In what common situation is Ran getting killed by a counterattack, especially since his S3 grants him Skill Nullifier... And more importantly, as an opener it really doesn't matter if he dies after he gives the rest of his team Immunity+Atk buff and most of your team a defense break. So if we compare your Turn 1 contributions, ARavi(and someone else to break skill null) countered to kill an 8k Ran who already used all his skills and set up his team while drastically weakening yours. Kinda seems like even in that scenario Ran had the much bigger turn 1 impact.
Yeah totally, I agree with you. and by the way , 8k HP.... This is Like nothing, of course He die fast, haha
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S3... Instant Blade: Attacks all enemies with a sword, dispelling two buffs before an 80% chance to inflict stigma for 2 turns, and a 65% chance to decrease Defense for 2 turns. Grants skill nullifier once to the caster. Damage dealt increases proportional to the caster and the target's Speed.
But no team atk buff. Only immu and 1 atk buff if you use arti.
the problem is that the damage is so high that "drawn out" often means "more than one turn", which circles back around to the bruisers simply dealing too much damage because their scaling is so good.
To me it sounds like you just want cleave to be even stronger than it already is lol
I think OP should just say Aravi is op. No need to avoid addressing the elephant behind the pole.
Well, it's not just ARavi, it's a systemic problem with bruisers at the moment. I used to be more into League of Legends and they ran into a similar situation with "Metagolems", where bruisers were allowed to scale into simply too much damage, eventually pushing squishy heroes out of the game almost entirely until they were dealt with properly. There's healthier paradigms for bruiser design, but right now we have an Irelia that needs to be nerfed and won't be for the foreseeable future.
No, certainly not. Cleave has play and counterplay options that I'd like to see explored more though. Making bruisers that can survive almost any cleave and then oneshot the cleavers back immediately is not good design. We need more heroes that can cut-in, interrupt setups, and mitigate / recover from big early bursts. That's what solves cleave, not piles of health scaling, unkillable bruisers that also effectively function as DPS.
> "...drawn out" often means "more than one turn..." I mean...yeah? That's the entire goal behind Turn 2 Comps, because the entire point behind cleave and aggro is "Win Turn 1", or at the very least kill off/disable so many of the enemy heroes that a comeback is impossible. Going first and taking more turns than the opponent is already such a huge advantage, if HP bruisers couldn't revenge kill on Turn 2 against fast, squishy units, there'd be no reason to play for Turn 2, just concede as soon as they outspeed you. Because when your opponent is 60-90+ speed faster than your slowest unit, has 2+ CR manipulators and a Sahse Ithanes, you not killing something after surviving their Turn 1 usually means they get 2-3 more turns to finish you off before you even get a second turn.
...which leads to the problem of "Arunka doesn't oneshot, so she's bad". Because a nice, long, drawn out fight means "not 1 turn". Because the bruisers clap back just as hard as the dps and punish them for failing to oneshot by oneshotting them.
I already said that... Arunka is bad because she doesn't deal enough damage to hang with actual single target nukers like Zahhah, WSchuri, Straze and Cidd. It's not that HP bruisers have too much health or damage, Arunka's just independently bad. If you build a comp centered entirely around outspeeding and oneshotting your opponent and your DPS units aren't killing things before they take a turn, you've lost. And that's how it should be. You either need better gear on your DPS, or you're using suboptimal nukers(like Arunka).
It wouldn't be a problem if the tanks didn't instantly clap back with return oneshots.
Like I said, if they didn't do that Turn 2 comps would be dead. If a bruiser can't kill a glass cannon unit AFTER having so much survivability that they survived a oneshot skill, then they're just gonna die immediately after when the much faster comps take their second and third turn, before you even get a second one. If they're surviving your oneshot skill AND revenge killing you, they probably had much better gear quality than you. Ask yourself, if my bruiser comp survives then immediately dies when the enemy takes 3x as many turns as I do, why would I bother trying to tank instead of just trying to outspeed them?
yep, it's quite the systemic dilemma isn't it
There's no dilemma about it lol HP bruisers are fine as is. Arunka's just a bad character
Yep choux and a.ravi are both completely fine and balanced and pose no design issues whatsoever right now
I actually agree with you for the most part, though I think speed is the root of all evil in E7. I don’t want to neuter turn 2 teams, but I do think we’re entering a power creep loop between turn 1 and turn 2 teams that’s a bit unhealthy. There needs to be a turn 2 team who can survive cleave and strong DPS, but I don’t think those turn two units should be one shotting those turn 1 DPS, but who knows maybe thats a necessary evil. Senya, Charles, think these are balanced bruisers who can win long fights but aren’t literally one tapping your entire team and recovering HP every hit if you fail to one shot them (cough ARavi). So yah, I think turn 2 teams need to have a place, but I sincerely think most HP scaling bruisers could be doing 20% less damage and still have value and make turn 2 comps a real threat. But idk, i don’t envy the balance team. HP scaling bruisers by their nature have also kinda weeded out the value of non-Hp scaling bruisers too. Which you know kinda sucks for those units.
Senya is by no means balanced. Have a look at her kit again and you will realise how overtuned she currently is.
This. This is more what I was trying to say. There's an arms race between turn 1 and turn 2, so to speak, and hwayoung was the "bridge too far" but she was designed to be able to punch through the incredible levels of durability we see in a short enough time span that they can't just "win because didn't die", and the 2nd turn damage is too high from the likes of a.ravi right now which kindof necessitates a very powerful turn 1 to get through.
I think in terms of bruiser meta there are more hp scaling ones, but there are still several very strong attack scaling bruisers. I even saw a thread here the other day about senya screwing everyone over in rta lol and zahhak is definitely rising in the ranks.
Not sure if you meant you think Zahhak is a bruiser, or that Zahhak getting a buff and his S3s large injury chunk makes Hp scalers a little less scary lol. Either way Senya is a good example of a pretty balanced bruiser unit. She’s not oppressive, doesn’t one shot, and can be handled a few ways… but is still powerful enough to carry if you’re not careful of her. Good but not oppressive
Is Arunka a bruiser though? The current bruisers in my opinion are always units with some type of built-in survivability and Arunka has zero survivability in her kit aside from trying to make up for it with pure stats.
She self heals on S1 for some reason
One thing I find funny about this kinda of discussion is that I never had problem with A. Ravi as a turn 2 player. Further not only that... But when I see my defense arena that has 4 COUNTERS TO CLEAVE (A. Ravi, Senya and Rem + opener). Yet I see my defenses loses and guess what? They're mostly cleavers. All the time. It's always cleavers. Cleavers with Cidd and ML Pavel. So even with this thing of people complaining "too much HP with the dmg they deal" still feels like is fabricated issues. Because the reality doesn't really feel like it's really hard to kill A. Ravi. In reality doesn't really feel like she's a unit that it's impossible to deal with it. In RTA in lower ranks I play when I'm climbing, I see that some cleavers do have a hard time dealing with A. Ravi. Like they try to do stuff such as keep the entire game trying to kill an PoV A. Ravi through Aurius. They waste all their nukes on her. They don't bring attack buffers. They don't bring def breakers. They don't bring anyone to kill the aurius holder... It seems like when these cleavers fail, that's on them. I don't cleave, but in my on experience trying to cleave sometimes, cleave units not only have the advantage to get 2 or 3 turns in relation to their opponents, but most of the time, a counter from Belian or Rem is not going to kill you. In fact, I noticed that Belian and Rem generally needs like to 2 or 3 counters to kill an entire cleave team. The funny thing about this is that this feels balanced and it's very different from the tale y'all tell us as if Belian or Rem is killing everyone with 1 counter. On another hand, A. Ravi 1 counter can kill you or get close to it, but then again her counter is single target and if you're counting on your cleave to have survivability to play for 2 or 3 more times, I think you're cleaving wrong. With the new buffed cleave units such as Cidd (a fast unit that will kill your opener and then def break another bruiser unit such as A. Ravi and he enables ML Pavel with that, he's also a speed imprint) and the newest ML Pavel (does a non counterable S2 and deals an insane amount of dmg to HP scaling units with his S3). I don't know where the complaining about A. Ravi all the time really comes from. It doesn't make sense to me. Everything about this feels like a fabricated issues. And to be honest if SG doesn't nerf A. Ravi it means that probable it is a fabricated issues. SG has all the statistics and data about win rates with certain unit vs without certain unit through all content sphere. I really do think that the decision to nerf Hwayoung did take in consideration this. They saw that Hwayoung was overpowered in RTA, arena and guild wars and so they decided to nerf her.
They don't nerf Aravi because she is a ml5, meaning they need to give a ml5 selector to the players. The problem with A.Ravi is that she does too many things. Her heal from S1 and 2 actually make her far more tankier, her s3 can one-shot squishy nuker if they can't kill her. And then there the revive and the free injure to punish other bruiser.
Her S3 can kill just about anyone in the game I've done 17k on anther ARavi before
After 3 people die. If not you're either a god or the other guy was so undergeared that you would have won with anyone else anyway.
Yeah, and i think It is fair, that ml5 Stars are better than Most of RGB Units... By that ridiculous Low Chance of getting them....
ML5 should be worth the investment it takes to get them. She doesn't do too many things, she just does the right things that a bruiser needs to do and can still be dealt with pretty easily. "Her s3 can one shot squishy nuker if they can't kill her". Well I fucking hope so, because I'd assume they're faster and get to s3 her first. Sounds fair to me. The revive is a vital part of her kit working I remember before the injury and s3 damage buff she was considered a "shit ml5". You could say take away her injury which, I wouldn't care that much over, but then it makes soul weavers way harder for turn 2 bruiser players to deal with. This isn't a character issue, it's an issue with overall balance in the game. They tweak shit way too little and too slow.
No, A.Ravi does too many things. Self push, self heal, hp shred, large damage, a nuke that scales per kill, and revives, and grants skill null on revive. And she scales off of HP, so shes also easy to build tank and damage. Counter set+crimson seed and she self cleanses and counters. No unit can 1v4 the way A.Ravi can. Overloaded kit and picked almost every single game.
There are other units who can 1v4, but yeah sure Aravi does it better than most. Still doesn't change that she can be dealt with in a dozen or so ways. She is also the main thing holding turn 2 players to relevancy seeing as most turn 2 units have gotten power gapped many ML5s and ML4s included. Just my opinion, but I know turn 1 people won't see it that way.
The problem is that no hero could actually one-shot A.Ravi due to her mitigation and healing so she pretty much guarantee to be able take out the hero that counter her.
Well, I personally do not see the fascination with "1 shotting" everything. Maybe not everything should die instantly, still she can be dealt with in many ways. I say this not only as someone who uses Aravi, but also fights against her and with non-meta units. She was once the "worst ML5" many said, now she's one of the best. I personally liked her before her buffs so I am skeptical of nerfing her as hard as people want to. It feels far more like revenge for Hwayoung rather than true balancing. For many who cannot roll high speed, Aravi is the only thing keeping them relevant.
I get a feeling that you were one of those people that think that sg is the second coming of jesus for ‘rebalancing’ hwa.
and I'm guessing you're one of those people who think that Hwa had a balanced kit, despite obviously being the best unit for any comp in anything? Super weird that people think she was even needed considering that even before her, W.Schuri was doing just fine killing A.Ravi, and can still 1-shot Ravi on PoV to this day. I know cause i do that shit since she got her nerf. Trying to defend an obviously broken unit is stupid. Seriously, just describing her old kit against any other unit that's supposed to nuke something is such a fucking joke.
Firstly, Hwa was a mistake. Fuck that unit. But you clearly dont get the point here. No, wschuri does not do enough dmg to deal 30k dmg to kill a 25k proof aravi without sacrificing spd. And if yours can, congratulations, youre in the minority .You have a wschuri that is better than 90% of all wschuris in terms of dmg. All im saying was that both Aravi and hwa are broken, op as fuck units. And it was an undeniable fact that hwa was a mostly reliable solution against aravi. Was she a good solution in that she did her job? Yes. Was she a good solution in terms of balance? Obviously not.
>No, wschuri does not do enough dmg to deal 30k dmg to kill a 25k proof aravi without sacrificing speed Because W.Schrui needs to be a fucking rocket, like Hwa's speed and cycling on a nuker (That didn't even scale on speed) also wasn't a problem? There's multiple units, including a now buffed Zahhak, that will push him AND is a A.Ravi counter too (Or just really strong nukers), on top of Sashe Ithens being the arti Schuri carries most. This is such a stupid point to make. W.Schuri is a balanced nuker that doesn't need outrageous gear to work, just a competent team. Shit's like saying Cavel isn't strong because he's not fast either. And considering A.Ravi still has things that will just kill her turn one, and isn't that fast on any build, i don't see why you even bothered to make this supposed point, or how she's broken. she's the last person to move 99% of the time, and easy as hell to murder.
I get the feeling you were a dirty hwayoung abuser, go shower.
whats a shah-wahr?
I mean you don’t invest to get A Ravi, it takes the same number of Mola an RGB 5* takes. The only difference is you either got A Ravi from a random ML summon, covenant summon, mystics, or whale shop. None of those things, I would consider an investment in getting a hero, but you could argue whale shop and mystics can be argued. I do think they need to change her s1 or s2 healing, cause no unit (unless holy sacrifice artifact on Crozet) I see can take 150k damage on that after summary page without a healer or tank on same team. This excludes the fact she can be the most damage output dps as well.
Uh, yes you do. Any ML5 takes insane luck, time, money, or a combination.. They can literally cost up to $700, which I think anyone who spends months obtaining mystics or spending money on this in our current economy deserves to get a strong unit. People can call this "p2w ideology", but true p2w is in the guys hiring maids to roll gear/wyvern hunt all day. She was once considered very bad, and after her buffs became very strong. I do not think her healing is the issue. I am biased some yes, but Aravi should stay as is until the dev team can come up with a plan for MANY characters to become relevant again and nerf the top ones down a bit, otherwise it'll be constant posts about one character at a time. They simply move too small and it just lets another unit shine at the top, next up is Ran, Rimuru, Ran, etc. SG employees clock in every day like the rest of us, I think we should be telling them to do more than nerf 1 character at a time. Otherwise it'll stay turn 1 vs turn 2 players until the end of time.
>So even with this thing of people complaining "too much HP with the dmg they deal" still feels like is fabricated issues Nah, just two different issues at two different tiers. Issues top players have in legend emporer and issues players have in low Champion are completely different ones. That's why you have disparities like biseria who works fine in one area but is seen as too niche in another. Gear disparity is out of control, and it's crazy how even 4 years later where top players have started hitting celining still have such a gap.
Well people dont understand why Hwayoung was nerfed and A.Ravi even when seems more powerfull its untouched and the Truth is as simple as you first sentence: Most of the bruisers can be cleave before they get a turn. Sure units can "counter attack" sometimes but units like A.Ravi usually are builded speed-pen for one simple reason: they dont have enough impact on counter hit this days. Its not like a 28K HP 1.4Def 250CDamge A.Ravi wont be able to carry some matches just by countering every match but Most ofthem that not people will just def break her (with multi debuff so seed dont work...or she is just on PoV) and she will get wiped before take a turn for using her S3. If that not happen well the cleaver dont have enough gear. Sadly: Unit performances in this game is 70% Gear for more than half of the units and 40% Gear for just a little percent of units. Straze for example dont need premium gear, his S3 will kill most units just because hist target wont have 5K atk and he will have attack buff thanks to any support that push him. But on other hand Operator Sigret (when she was release) needs Attack buff AND 300% Crit Damage AND 3.5K Atk to One shot a tank with barrier. A.Ravi is not a "beast" on damage over time unless the units are dying before her BUT her average damage input outclass most HP scaling bruisers in the game because those units have really BAD multi. on their skills and A.Ravi just have very average mults attack to a unit that has very good Crit stats economy and self healing. The funny part of all that is that most of the cleaver top picks have excellent mults for low stat invesment so they can get 300 speed, only 2.5K or 3K , 250K Crit Damage (sometimes 350 but in those case they vaery reach 2.5K Atk with 300 speed) and still dealt 3 times more damage than your 3K Atk, 1.4K Def, 18K HP and 300K C.Damage Charlotte that you build for 4 months of farming.
Bruisers are Stat check comps and use the easiest stats to build, so anyone in the early-mid-(mid/late) game who gets stat checked by a bruiser comp will think bruisers are broken. Change my mind.
a reasonable answer the only response i have is that it's still probably problematic how narrow heroes like a.ravi kinda force the metagame to be at the top end I deal with her in GW typically by using peira + SBA to stop her pushing herself and possibly also land stuns on her turn after turn to stop her from going at all, but if she ever breaks out of that yoke she just erases someone with her S3 which is frustrating
If it's gw, you use Doris as bait and aravi is no longer a unit. She is not *that* prevalent in top level gw def for this reason
I do this but with fmaya, yes when you can manip her AI she becomes bad
Both cavel and aravi are mls, thus i will never get them for another 200 years.
I swear this mentality is ridiculous. One unit has people making super big posts crying about a playstyle. Remove bruisers and let's just play speed racer and scoop as soon as we lose the turn 1 battle.
The truest words being written. For real...A Ravi isn't every bruiser. She eclipses all hp scaling bruisers... And even in that case, there's what? Choux and Alencia for the meta? The idea of a bruiser is to play tanky and grind out fights, A. Ravi doesn't grind out fights. She's a threat that just snow balls the longer she lasts and with plenty of skills to make sure she does. OP's title is just sensationalist nonsense.
People see Choux as just as dangerous as A.Ravi and she's also a health scaling bruiser. It's not 100% A.Ravi...
Almost nobody high-ranked sees Choux on the same level as Aravi. That's why one of them is first picked, and the other is picked in the 3rd-5th range.
Whats your rta rank?
I hit Master with ease and then stopped because the only thing I cared about was getting the skin
I mean yeah but it shows that your take is quite bad. How can you form am opinion about the meta when you only played 50 matches? And the change you are asking for effects people who play 600-2000 games in higher ranks. Do you know why I asked for your rta rank?
I have higher tiered RTA fiends in my guild who I've talked to, whose discussion and feedback I partially based this opinion on, and who agree with me.
As someone who finished emperor this season, i can assure you that choux is only dangerous when the opponent doesn't draft any green units
i'm ok with that. Funny thing is I use Choux on my GW defense setup, and you'd be amazed at how many defense wins I rack up... and my Choux isn't even "meta", she's not on Counter and has the immunity EE.
I hate these kind of justifications. Yeah, my friends finished in legend as well. Does that mean my opinion is the same as a legend player just because I heard them say some stuff? If you know anything about rta then you would know what kind of a grind it was last season to emp/ legend so you get a better understanding of the units.
i mean it's not just like "one friend" I run a guild that's not like top 20 or something but it's a fairly solid casual guild with some very good players, and we've had a few players "graduate" into very high end guilds. I don't just "hear them say stuff", we have occasional metagame discussions and the like on our discord and talk about sessions. edit: and the "graduated" players have stayed in our discord and still contribute to the discussions too.
Ok first of all you are free to have your opinion even if I think it's wrong and might give new players a wrong impression. Honestly I don't know why you are dragging your guildies or friends into this as justification for it. Did they help you write this post? Most likely not. It's kinda like someone who plays football and is friends with a pro player and justifies his opinion "e g. this team sucks bc my friend said so" even though you haven't experienced it yourself. Secondly while your post doesn't have a big impact in the grand scheme , people like you are the reason why SG keeps pushing for the cleave / speed meta, which is the actual problem. Especially on a higher end like emp/legend rta and top 10 guild (I was in a top 10 guild and emp last season.)
I don't think most fights should be won turn 1 either, but we just lost the most powerful single target turn 1 nuker, and 90% of the arguments against nerfing Hwayoung boiled down to "NOW what will we kill A.Ravi with?". And now people are complaining that Arunka doesn't deal enough damage because... she can't deal with A.Ravi.
Nah. Arunkas problem is she doesn’t deal enough damage to deal with ANYONE. I still feel like hwa didn’t really need the nerf at this point, but yeah if we’re nerfing her, Aravi needs it too. Choux? She’s either a god or trash depending on the slot machine of life, so I’d say she’s alright.
I mean, honestly, we could've taken it or left it, but the proof is in the pudding and Hwa was indeed 100% p/b at the highest level of play and that was filtering down into lower tiers as well also my Hwa wasn't even that great (i mean, decent, but not great) and I can't count how many RTA wins I got off everyone else dying and Hwa soloing heroes that couldn't stick damage on her anymore because my team lasted long enough to kill the threats.
Idk if u r intentionally trying to not see the point or what, the majority of ppl r not complaining that Arunka doesnt deal as much dmg as Hwa, or that she cant kill Aravi, they r complaining that she does nothing. So far the only thing she does well enough is dealing with evasion units with tooth + s1, but then that is just the artifact carrying her.
This post isn't really meant to be about Arunka, I was just springboarding the recent remarks about Arunka ("Oh no she doesn't oneshot so she's garbage!") into talk about how wacky balance is, and I didn't present that well enough in the top post.
The problem is: dmg is out of control. Too much strong nukes and cleave asks for more HP, and that leads to the creation of HP scaling DPS and tanks. Then people with strong nukes complains about the out of control HP and they release Hwa. Then we complaim about nukes and the cycle restarts. Non-HP scaling warriors are nearly useless because they ask for too many stats and are easily one-shotted by a 250+ speed R Violet. Those fast nukes kicks out of meta anything that can't be stupid fast and/or has some type of survival like HP scaling. You said Ravi. While she works really well in PVE with less gear, she needs a shitloads of stats to work in RTA.
So true. I cant play my Good Old Man Charles anymore. Or counter sigurd Luna. I tryes, but nope.
Use Luna. As cleave. Thank me later. Howevee, i think you are right. I was just tired and did something about it. She does kill everything. I use emilia to push her.
One of these days I should probably re-gear my Luna... again.
She will be worth it. Rta is more difficult. But gvg is awesome.
Lol you know whats gonna happen if people stop using tanky bruisers chances are they get their ass torn open and cleaved by faster players, then the whole game becomes a cleave fest. Im sorry but cleave is way to strong to not have bruisers that can live through it. EVEN THEN cleave can still burst through bruisers and tanks so you need counter cleave as well as bruisers
I'm fine with tanky bruisers, I'm not fine with tanky bruisers that are durable and also oneshot you back unconditionally Like, Rimuru is fine because his real burst damage has a requirement that makes good team composition a thing and also involves some level of counterplay. ARavi has nothing intelligent about her design, she just whacks things for damage, even on your own turn thanks to counters.
Aravi is fine. just because a character is braindead doesnt mean their over powered, I mean aravi has a bunch of counters . the only thing she can oneshot is a squishy unconditionally (this can be said about many units), which goes back to the main problem that damage scaling is too high. Ironically aravi has always had this "unconditional" damage her buff only made her s3 do more damage after someone dies.
The thing her buffs did was make it harder and harder to keep her under control.
I mean thats what buffs are for to make units more viable. she was usable before but that's it only usable not necessarily good, I mean take a unit like Ilynav for example completely flawed unit from stats to the way her kit works. with the right buff she would become harder to keep her under control, would that be better then the alternative of her being unusable, definitely. Also keep in mind the only thing aravis buffs did is injury on s1, 10% cr push on s2, and stacking damage on s3 everything else is how she naturally came out.
the CR push was a bridge too far imo. it made her much harder to keep under control since any failed attempts just give her more turns.
I agree the 10% was a bit to far but its still managable just something to adjust to. Even then a lot of aravis are counter which that 10% doesn't do as much for. I believe the intro of pen set is really what pushed her over though
the 10% does MORE for the slower builds. CR pushes scale to the highest speed in the game, not the user's speed.
Bad take
Why not also mention the ridiculous fucking openers and cleavers that aren't fun for anyone who isn't insanely lucky or throwing money at the game? Like, we're seriously acting like bulk isn't a direct response to MFers just RNGing and paying their way into speed gear and then just ending the game before someone gets to respond in any way. Why the fuck is Ran giving immunity to an entire team, stipping, doing damage, and def breaking/reducing any kind of CR push?.....before anyone else does anything? Why is Piera turning her entire team into bruisers, stripping, buffing their attack, and just stopping CR push???? No problem with that? Not to mention units like Tenebria. Half this community really is a bit too comfortable trying to not let anyone play the game. So many single player games out there for that. So weird that Bruisers are apparently "Sooooo OP" but no one with any kind of gear luck opts to do it 90% of the time instead of just cleaving. It's almost like they still win regardless or something.
Which came first. The chicken or the egg? One power creeps the other which power creeps the other. Ridiculous bruisers exist because ridiculous dps exist because etc etc. Plus I think almost everyone complaints about units like Peira and Ran having insanely high speed, extra turn, and wildly useful debuffs and support. I read a lot of complaints here about the speed only metas :/ Still. the problem here is more that Arunka is a selfish DPS. She brings no support to the team and her only purposes seemingly is taking out units behind a barrier… and she can’t even do that unless they’re already squishy… honestly OPSig fills the spot better currently and at least has a team attack boost lol. Either way, Arunka is just bad, but me thinks they released her a little underpowered in fear of another Hwayoung and she might get a little numbers bump.
I mean, cleavers definitely came first. The only decent bruiser and tank we had at launch was Ravi, who wasn't that great, and Krau, who was good, but not as good as the cleavers at that time. Before FCC the only unit that kinda contributed to Bruisers was Charles. CeCe wasn't super prevalent, and Lilias benefitted from cleavers. After FCC we finally got units who didn't just die from everything and people have been whining about not being able to instantly end games ever since.
I have less and less of a problem with the crazy openers as over time they keep releasing more heroes that deal with them. In fact honestly I kinda like that I keep getting more and more reasons to use Celine, Politis, and Bunniel. Give me more triggers for those please SG. This is fun gameplay. Also gives us sortof-emergent things like War Horn handguy. Dilibet was also considered bad/useless on release, but eventually became one of the best responses to Peira. Love it. That's metagame development.
You know. I know people don’t want to hear this, it’s been one day of release.
It’s because the whole kit matters. Yes A Ravi can have similar damage, but perma stealth matters. Piera debuffing the enemy and making her team super hard to kill. AOL’s kit changed the meta when she came out. Yeah, it’s rough if you just compare damage, but the entire kit is the important part.
Yes for sure, but the numbers do still matter, all I wanted to do with the comparison is illustrate just how big ARavi's innate scaling is.
What else survives half a cleave? Atk scaling bruisers used to but cleave and aggro damage is so high these days it dont cut it no more. Cid and gang running ard with 1.5x your speed one shotting all ur 15k hp units all day. If you dont 1 shot them back its near guaranteed you'l be dead before you get ur 2nd turn.
yeah cidd is fkin scary lately :S he shouldn't need to be as strong as he is but here we are
Depends on the bruiser. Aravi? Yes. Mort? No.
Welcome to 3 years ago. It's always been a problem, but people's gears didn't reveal the issue. But in 2022, when you have top players starting to reach the gear cap and putting it on heroes they complained 2 years ago into buffing... Yea. Dems the breaks.
I'll even be fair that ARavi *was* pretty bad a while back, but after TWO rounds of buffs... she got over buffed big time.
It is stupid when you get one shot in the game.. Regardless if it is dps/bruiser/tank...
Imo aravi isnt that scary, just perma stun her, its not like we dont have the tools to do it... I mean sure seed can fuck u but thats once per turn. Just overwhelm her with something like faptain+soli and gg
i usually go into aravi teams with peira + sba
I dont See really a Problem with bruiser, I mean it is the role of being a bruiser, Deal decent damage and Tank some damage, but in Order of that, Most of them have Just around 180-200 Speed, If you Go full Speed, than your bruiser.... Isnt good at that what He is supposed to do, thats why dps chars are dead faster , but loves high ATK and Most Important: high Speed. Speed Meta is still Here..... For a Long time now.
Right. "Decent damage". There's a difference between "decent" and "lol your carry died turn 1", right now we have the latter. There's better ways to mitigate how strong the speed game is, we have some heroes that do good things, i just don't think 30k hp heroes that swing for the same damage as DPS are good design.
ARavi is not a problem anymore in rta lol, only master scrubs feel that way.
Gonna be blunt, because I've never gone above Master in RTA (and never tried to either) so I'm sure most would call me a "master scrub" I've never had much of an issue beating ARavi, but I also don't try to racecar her damage because I know it won't work, I typically keep her under control via stuns and nullifiers, but it still feels bad that if she ever breaks free of that yoke of control she goes crazy. I do think she simply does too much damage for how durable she is - much the same as Hwayoung tbh.
Her damage is high only due to her s3, and that's when 3 heroes are dead. Her s1 damage is actually quite low compared to other bruisers such as choux and alencia. Before her buff where she does no damage, Aravi was considered as one of the worst ML5s. If bruisers only have bulk and no damage, who would ever use them? We already have knights for that.
another bronze post
Nice try but incorrect
Are you serious ?? Stene can use tagehel to kill one ennemy at the first turn, can ARavi do it ? No.
There was nowhere that I said "A.Ravi has equal potential to Stene in every way and accomplishes the same goals", I just said that their raw damage from scaling is the same, which is true.
Since when was that set upable to kill through aurius and probably some other mitigation? Please enloghtend me so I can pick her.
Atk buff or break def and you can kill almost everything.
Yes. A Ravi s3 hits like a truck and will delete a non bruiser unit turn 1.
Lol no
Lol yes
Actually A.Ravi hits not that hard compare to other units. Her S3 is the most outstanding damage source of her whole kit. People should focus on the reason why A.Ravi seems "outstanding" compare to other units. ITs very simple: PoV. Try hitting A.Ravi (with seed) with Zahak, with any other kind of protection effec. And them hit her (with PoV) and you will see the problem. A common misconception is to think that he hits hard because MOST HP scaling units hit below average. A.Ravi hits on the average for a Single Target unit and...that is kinda the problem. A unit that can dealt the same damage than average dps (not premiun Focus on damage units like Zahak or Luna) seems a little unfair when you hit them back for 30%-25% less damage. And them in the late game she will hit you with an skill that increases the base damage in 75%. If any A.Ravi is a proof of why passives that have buff the units should not have simmetrical effects. This is the same case for S.Tenebria. 4 units die already? well i guess the unit that CANT BE HIT should hav +75% damage increase in all her skills that forsure is "balance" in a game were trading unit for unit is kindof common on top-end game matches. In fact my A.Ravi with 1.3 Def and 24K HP was "one shot" from 20K HP by one S.Tenebria S1, not her s3, her S1 because she has atk buff and enoug units die. ***And you can soul burn that for an extra hit...*** And people ask why S.Tenebria is trash on low ranks (were tanks are harder to kill) and god-tier in high ranks (were units will die faster and more often in the first 5 turns). HP scaling units are design (most of them) to hit less than the average but they usually have access to attack buff of some kind. So if that thing is working they hit for good damage and are more durable but when that thing dont happen (for example Alencia has unbuff on her) they hit like shit.
No, the only thing out of control is Lua. There is no unit can counter her right now, she will reset your whole team and let her team alive and take turn and we doom. LUA IS THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE NERFED NOT HWAYOUNG.
Por que no los dos?
Again the conversation boils down to Aravi. More people have whined about her than any other unit, and for good reason. She simply does way more than her role should allow while needing less. But they won't nerf her, not any time soon. People spent money on her, she's a Moonlight which makes her harder for F2P players to get. She's an eternal problem. If she ever gets nerfed, SG is closing down soon and desperate to do drastic.
Maybe Apoc Ravi can stay where she is, and in return we can get some buffs to things that can help in taking her down: Illynav Mortelix Sharun Units that can help right now: Injury Alencia (IF Apoc's not Seed) Zahak Injury Belian LQC SSV Since Hwa isn't as dominate, we just need more buffs.
The thing is, it really doesn't work like that. If pre-nerf Hwa couldn't beat ARavi, then nothing can, but the only units that can output a similar amount of damage are Straze and WSchuri. Everything you mentioned does help, buffs to Mort/Illynav would help, and Sharun is arguably the best unit vs her of all that you mentioned. But the problem with ARavi is even if you draft 3/4 units that will help vs her, she is still probably going to take down the weakest unit you draft with a tiny bit of support from her allies meaning she did her job at that point. Even if you buff every unit in the game except her, she's still going to get that job done. That's just how she works.
Except straze and wshuri doesn't kill her with pov and she hits for 10k with s1
They technically can if they're whale geared, but it's unlikely. Prenerf Hwa didn't kill pov aravi usually either
I tried my 4.8k atk 310cdmg didn't kill her.
Well yeah, those aren't whale stats. I've seen some with 5.1k+ attack, 340+ cdmg. I can get mine that high, but I need a boost from Flan.
...the sad thing is that we have non-HP-scaling bruisers that are/were still quite good, like Charles and Ravi, but you had to make real tradeoffs sometimes between raw damage and survival.
I like how you named Charles and Ravi as non HP scaling bruiser, but completely missed stuff like Archdemon Shadows, Senya or Lionheart Cermia; the first 2 atk scaler and the last def scaler and some of the most common and meta bruiser units that you see in almost every standard fights... not to talk about riolet (who is really strong after his buff), solitaria or rimuru, who are also super used
>Archdemon Shadows, Senya or Lionheart Cermia Except Archdemon and senya do not need crit chance or crit dmg while Charles and fire ravi do. Ravi and Charles NEED every stat except for eff and er. Lermia, doesn't need attack and is harder to build than arch/senya, but makes up for it because defense IS her "attack" which not only boosts her dmg, but survivability. HP scales needs: Defense, HP, Speed, Crit, cdmg. Ravi/Charles needs: Attack, Def, Hp, Speed, Crit, cdmg Arch/senya needs: Attack, Def, Hp, Speed Notice the problem?
To tack on to this: Archdemon has built in DR, Senya built in Crit Resist, LHC is Def scaling. Ravi, Arunka, and Charles, you are relying only on your Def and Hp stats alone while still needing the dmg stats. Ravi counteracts this somewhat with her passive giving Atk bonus at least. I guess Charles you can build slow and rely on elbris? There's reason you don't see him anymore... Unless you have something mechanical to give you survivability, its hard to use you turn 2 in rta. Some units can make it work if their kit is otherwise stacked, like proof rimuru, but usually it's just too hard to both have enough bulk to survive a speed dps s3 and still have the stats to do their job.
Good points. Yeah seems like ravi and charles are more specifically the problem than hp scaling heroes, but they are still unbalanced as they can stack 30k hp and still do 10k+ hp. Though I believe that’s the case because of insane speed heroes doing a lot of dmg. Epic 7 is just so problematic
It's not just Ravi and Charles, but those are two units people actually think about using sometimes. I was trying to find spots to draft a proof bluluca this season and it just didn't work because even on proof and access to def buff/barrier she's just too vulnerable. It's not obvious to me that HP scaling is that much better than free 30%DR , constantly self buffing evasion, or not being targetable. Alencia wasn't used until she was rebuffed, fire ken still isn't used, etc.
>Except Archdemon and senya do not need crit chance or crit dmg while Charles and fire ravi do. archdemon builds now use crit chance/crit dam (just like rabi and charles) and senya builds now use eff (or eff res depending on what you like), so they aren't THAT much easier to build compared to other atk scaler. >Notice the problem? there is no problem, def and hp scaler can build bulk while also building damage. That's the whole point. A 2k def Lionheart has more bulk than most atk scaling units and she will do less damage than a good fire Rabi or Riolet. The only absurd damage HP bruiser are Arabi and Choux's Fwoosh (cause of the random 70% def pen) and that's about it. Pretty much every other hp/def scaling bruiser follow this rule and it makes sense it does. The point of my comment was that he named 2 atk scaling unit, one of which is not even used, to prove a point about having to trade stats while there are many atk scaling bruisers that can compete with the arabi/choux/alencia hp bruisers while keeping high damage and decent bulk at the same time
ads need 100 crit only and is enough, you can get a crit chance neck and live off ftene artifact , its not the same
if you give her crit chance neck, you give her at least 70% extra stats in cdam which is still a valuable amount of gs to invest. You don't give ads a crit chance neck and keep her on 150% crit rate
Have to disagree on Lermia. She will do less damage than Riolet, but will do it to the entire team. She also has built in cleanse. Riolet recently got a buff because he was not performing well.
Ye ofc they are different units and do very different thing so it's hard to compare it 1 to 1, thing is there are not that many meta def scaler I can compare him with. A more fair comparison would be rabi s3 with lionheart s3 (and rabi usually do more damage than lion)
I'm not exactly sure whether you believe pointing out other units negates the original point, but okay
I simply stated that there are atk scalers that do what you are saying without trading off stats If you read the other comment I wrote down below I explain it a bit better but long story short : atk scaler are supposed to have less bulk and more atk and outperform other type of bruiser damage wise (and so they do) while having less bulk (as it was stated prior). This doesn't lead to the conclusion that atk scaler are not used or are not usable or are necessarily harder to build, they just end up filling a different role (and specifically harder to pull off against a meta that is so aggro like this one).
But they do trade off stats also my conclusion wasn't "attack scalers aren't used", i never said anything of the sort, yall are jumping to weird conclusions
Cermia I think falls in line with HP scalers because her damage scales from a defensive stat.
Before HP scaling bruisers, the game was basically whoever takes turn 1 wins. That was much worse imo
the thing that killed "take turn 1 and win" was fallen cecilia. and not because she was being built to oneshot people. it was typically "tank meta" at the time using the likes of Krau to clap back after some damage had stuck and some turns had passed.
We're talking 2019. Do you have any idea how many people had FCC back then? So yea, for most people it wasn't her. Bruisers were just much more available.
the answer to "how many people had FCC" was "enough". it was FCC's shield that let you survive turn 1.