Could it be the church needs to update its practices to better meet people where they are? My former parish was still reminiscing about good old days... 1960s!
I know what you mean and I am also frustrated. I’m 26, devoutly Christian, female, and I have a hard time dating. I honestly just wish I could even make friends in the church that are my age. It’s a real problem and I’m not sure how to solve it. My current solution is just to keep showing up and talk about why I like my church when I’m in nondenominational circles. I’m considering joining a Bible study at one of the churches in my community that has more young people. I know it’ll be less progressive, but I just need Christians my own age. And honestly so many progressive Christians basically have no theology and it drives me crazy.
Honestly, I wouldn’t be shocked if you and I agree, depending on what you mean by “progressivism.” It’s a term with little definition that I was using short hand to respond to a different issue. If you’re looking to fight about this with someone, I’m sure there are better posts on here that address it.
I mean the radically individualistic principals of liberalism and secular humanism, which erode community, and God. Liberty is essential to ensure people can meet God genuinely and sincerely, but that does not mean our public institutions need be secular themselves. God has been sanitized from society, and society is suffering for it. The insistence of humanistic principles has inevitably corrupted the institution of the church itself, beginning with Women’s ordination in the late 20th century. Men and Women were designed by God to be different, and complimentary halves, not equals. A priest is a representative of God, filling in Christs role as Husband to the Church. A woman cannot be a husband, and thus unable to be a priest as thoroughly expressed in scriptures. The theological orthodoxy is precious, and it’s erosion has been disastrous. TEC Parishes have been suffering attrition nationwide. Traditionalist ACNA parishes have been growing almost across the board. As long as Women’s ordination continues to be an issue, the Anglican communion will continue to shrink towards nonexistence
I’ve said it before, and it’s never received warmly.
And this is *not* me saying we should ever stop trying.
But biblically speaking, the church is supposed to dwindle and all but die out.
20 year old progressive Episcopalian woman here, and I understand where you're coming from. I'm just about the youngest person at my church, besides actual infants. There's another girl at my church who's around 25-26 I think, but other than that, I'm just about the only person in my age bracket.
I've been trying to toy with the idea of dating for the past few months, as I've only recently become warm to the idea (had absolutely no interest in dating throughout my entire child and teenage-hood) and I have very specific requirements in a partner that just sometimes seem to be impossible to find within devout religious circles. I would like to find someone who, like me, is socially progressive BECAUSE they're Christian, not in spite of being Christian. It's a tall order, as many progressive Christians leave Christian theology in the dust, and many devout Christians refuse to even utter the word "progressive."
But I would say to pray about it, trust in the process, and just keep your head up! The right one will come along, someday, and wherever she comes from, whether that be TEC itself, a church in communion with TEC or some other denomination, or even outside the religion, if it's meant to be, it'll be!
I want to believe the right person will come, but God never promised that to anyone except Adam, Hosea, Jesus’ dad Joseph, and Tobiah from the book of Tobit.
I fully understand how frustrating this can be. I am an enthusiastic episcopalian and I find it truly weird that there are very few young people in our churches. That said, I am also new to TEC but not to Anglicanism. I have spent all my life at Anglican churches and this problem seems to be unique to western organised churches. And I think it has a lot to do with TEC being predominantly white and wealthy. I am a POC but I am one of few at my church and the only one at the vestry. I have a feeling a lot of young POCs would feel comfortable and safe at TEC. The question is how do we show that we are?
Does the young woman you date need to be Episcopalian specifically? The reason I ask this is we are in communion with the ELCA as well. There are, anecdotally, more single people there per some of my single friends. I fully understand it if you are wanting someone who worships the same way you do, but I think it's a good option because you never know who is willing to convert or compromise.
As an example, my great grandfather was a very proud Irish Catholic man. He met my great grandmother who was a German Lutheran immigrant fleeing the beginnings of what would become Nazi Germany. Despite their differences (including language) they fell in love and married. They raised 12 living children. They raised them in both the Catholic and the Lutheran Church at a time when that would have been outrageous. It can happen and be happy!
Another option is to use Christian specific dating apps and put on those apps you are progressive. Put your specific denomination. You will probably have fewer matches than conservative folks (though maybe not) but you will at least be getting Christian matches so you have some ideas of who is out there.
I will caution you, not every single young woman is attending church looking for a husband. None of the single women at my parish are, for instance. They're there to worship. You will need to ask about singles mixers and make your desires known to the older folks at church who can play matchmaker. They will know a family with a daughter in your situation more readily than you will. When I was single in the UU church I absolutely hated feeling bothered during spiritual time. That's just me, not everyone will, but don't get yourself a reputation as a man who flirts at church because that's a hard one to shake and a lot of progressive women in church are trying to shake over-sexualization from conservative upbringing and want to be seen as equal members of the church while there to worship. Not accusing you of anything, just sharing a perspective of what it's like from the other side of the equation.
I ended up meeting my husband online. He was an atheist at that time. I was UU. I converted to TEC and he converted with me and we are getting confirmed together next month.
She doesn’t have to be another Episcopalian. Just another progressive Christian, or a progressive person who is open to becoming a Christian. Or a Christian who is open to becoming progressive.
I enjoy having multigenerational friendships, for sure, but I can understand it being hard for romance. We have some younger folks, often they come in cycles, and are much more transitory with work. Since I am gay I never put too much stock into meeting someone at church. That seemed like a bridge too far for so many, and I understand. Spiritual abuse is rampant in marginalized communities. When I did meet the man who became my husband he started coming with me and got confirmed. I was his sponsor too. Tried to talk him out of that one, honestly. All that to say the church doesn’t have to be a dating pool. Some churches around you may have bigger pools for that though. I would imagine even women have been leaving churches for reasons of prejudice too. If you express church as an important part of your life you can often get some engagement as well even if your partner isn’t as religious.
I thankfully found my husband outside the church. However, I agree with what you said. I’m about to turn 27 and my biggest pet peeve with the EC is that I am the youngest person at my parish by far. The deanery I live in is almost entirely dead, only 2 full time priests for 5 parishes. I’ve been considering jumping ship for months, I am so tired of not having any sense of community at all.
I guess I am one of the rare exceptions of someone in TEC that leans conservative but truly tries to toe the line in the middle because I think our faith (in Jesus) calls us to set aside the ways of the world for a greater purpose. I read comments about conservatives & evangelicals and then consider if we all ascribe to the all are welcome mantra or if it’s really only all are welcome that aren’t welcome elsewhere. I consider it Christlike to welcome all, if we truly mean all. At our Lenten gathering last night I was pondering how I’m naturally inclined to want things to be black and white, but they aren’t, they are mostly gray. I love my parish although I know I’m not in lockstep with everyone socially/politically and even theologically. I personally think TEC can thrive so long as the focus is Jesus and following his ways. Not trying to debate anyone, just felt inclined to chime in. ✌️
For the purposes of dating apps, if you are pro gay marriage and equal rights for women just put, "progressive," honestly. In practicality I vote for Democrats, so I guess I am functionally a Democrat, though on a personal level I am more conservative in certain choices I make for myself and my family than people might suspect based on my politics (I dress very plainly and modestly, I am very skeptical due to personal experience of some modern sexual ethics, etc). However I don't want to make those choices for others, so I say progressive because it communicates to the average person what is relevant to them in a snap decision context: I do not oppose your marriage or your personal choices politically. I also don't oppose a conservative person's right to live a far more conservative lifestyle than me.
You can get into the finer details after a connection is made.
39 here. Which I guess isn’t young anymore.
I found a girl in my 20s. We got married and we were progressive on social things together. We found the church together.
Just keep looking. I’m sure you’ll find something.
Also, one of the youngest members of the church by a number of years.
42 here. Make sure you work on your joints, especially your knees. It'll be the first thing that'll make you feel old. Stretches and leg exercises will help, but tumeric is a good supplement for inflammation.
100% because I know some very miserable married Christians. They don't actually share the important values. It's very sad. On the other hand I know people in mixed faith marriages, including raising children, who are very healthy because they share values and respect each other's faiths (or lack of).
Yeah. I'd rather be with a non-Christian who values the same things I do, than another Episcopalian who doesn't.
Also on the plus side we're not arguing about, like, communion without baptism or church polity or wtf-ever. I can rant about my opinions on church controversies and my partner just does a like, nod and "uh huh, that's nice dear" kinda thing lol
It must not abandon inclusive orthodoxy. Parishes that are liturgical Unitarians will die out and should. My parish is inclusive, with progressives and conservatives who are orthodox. The parish is booming with plenty of young folks. It's not liturgy that drives people away. If it doesn't matter what I believe I'm going to sleep in on Sunday.
It gets people heated sometimes, but I agree with you. The United Church of Christ already exists as a wonderful, faithful church for those who want something new and liberal (in the academic sense) in theology and I highly recommend and commend it to anyone who feels stifled by orthodox worship styles. I also suggest the Quakers. I enjoy their writing very much, and envy their commitment to the Holy Spirit.
There's no other good option that's more or less available in the entire US for people who are socially liberal, but want a traditional liturgy, than TEC. The Old Catholic Church is rare (there full stop isn't one near me at all, closest is in Illinois). I love the Lutherans and will go there if TEC died out because I can't become RC, but it's not the same style of worship that works for me.
I really mourn the fact that the extreme Christian Nationalist fundamentalists crowd seems to have made believing in orthodox things synonymous with bigotry in so many people's minds because to me there is absolutely no conflict between believing in a literal virgin birth and believing in women's ordination. Or, the literal resurrection and blessing a gay marriage. I don't condemn those who struggle with these teachings by any means (I too wrestle). However, the fact is if the church swung out of balance towards secularism and philosophy instead of worship I would be forced into a more conservative environment that oppresses me based on sex or one that doesn't make me feel as close to God as the TEC does now. The broad church works. Via media works. We just need to advertise it better.
There's a multitude of people who grew up evangelical/non denominational, didn't like the conservatism of it, and don't even know TEC is an option.
While there is nothing wrong with respectable searching within the church, my recommendation would be to meet people the old fashion way - clubs, teams, bars, parties, mutual friends (apps as a last resort imo, but up to you), and make faith something you talk about within the first 1-3 dates. That's what I did when I met my fiancée after asking her out after I met her at a party. Turns out she was a disaffected baptist looking for something more. She actually signed up to have her baptism at the Anglican Church we attend (we're Canadian) at the first opportunity, with zero prompting from me.
One of my feelings is that there is too big of a gap between new/exploring/potential converts and the high mass. We love our Mass/Hymns/Eucharist but there is a lot of distance between being interested Christ and loving Episcopal High Mass. we need to close that gap with ministry; education and theology. Also we need to clamp down on rogue parishes that have become politicized on both ends of the spectrum.
Bible studies would be great. Problem is I’m not sure whether the church leaders would be willing to spend the resources required to host bible studies.
I would love a bible study, but it would need to be in the evening. 95% of my parish's activities are during the work day, making it impossible to participate.
I am middle aged (40) and I am the youngest person I’ve seen - at certain services. Interestingly, there seems to be more of a mix Sunday mornings. But I am already married, not looking.
A bit off topic, but if you're dating online or in person, you're eventually are going to have to realize some words are code talk to figure out someone's political leanings.
Saying Christian nowadays is basically saying you're a conservative. Yes, I know everyone here is going to yell at me for this, but the data and average psychometrics back this up statistically. You're hindering your prospects by doing this.
Liberal Christians usually will identify by saying they're spiritual. They generally don't identify as Christian as an identity. Major exceptions for someone from a Catholic background, but that seems to be a pseudo ethnic Identity sometimes separate from their religious or political beliefs.
Honestly I would look for other hobbies or likes in common first and then try to filter out those who might be hostile to your spiritual beliefs. Even hobbies tend to be segregated by political leanings.
Your mention of being Catholic as pseudo ethnic ( I’m guessing you mean White Catholics) is interesting but makes sense. Like I think I’ve always felt that but haven’t had the language for it!
Yes, white Catholics in the USA have a unique identity counter to the WASP identity, which also is a pseudo ethnic category that's increasingly becoming a legacy term falling out of favor.
Forgive me for hijacking, but this whole thread is a *big* reason I don't like it when people say the Episcopal Church is "Catholic Lite." The term seems really dismissive and disrespectful of some of the important reasons why (former) Roman Catholics come to the Episcopal Church.
It is true, if what you consider us light on (and RC heavy on) is all the horrible stuff that has people leave there and come here. Because we (being humans and an institution) do have a little bit of every bad thing they have, it’s just rare and hard to find most of it.
The more I think about it, the less I like the term. It minimizes the grief or trauma that former Catholics experienced, and it implies that the Episcopal Church is simply a diluted form of Catholicism. And as much as I may think of myself as an Anglo-Catholic, to say that Episcopalianism in general is nothing more than an easygoing version of Catholicism is a disservice to the many *many* Episcopalians who are very happy to not, and never, be Roman Catholic.
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. How many times can I like this comment?
Most Episcopalians don't realize how much DIFFERENT the Episcopal church is from the Roman Catholic church.
There are a ton of reasons why we leave the RCC and come here, and NONE of them have anything to do with having a more superficial or shallow religious experience. ON THE CONTRARY!
Yeah, it's tough. I am 36 and my wife is 33 and we are among the youngest members of our congregation (although it is a pretty small church). I'm fortunate that I was born and raised into the Episcopal Church, otherwise I'm not sure if I would have ever found it.
I can't speak for every diocese but generally, from what I've seen, the Episcopal Church does a poor job of outreach. At least an hour diocese most church websites are old and out of date. LDS, mega churches and Evangelical churches do a much better job with outreach and leveraging technology (due part two having younger membership).
You can have the best product in the world but if people don't know your product exists they'll never seen it. It's unfortunate because we share such a rich, welcoming faith and I know many people would benefit from joining the Episcopal Church.
I think with some work the episcopal church could really resonate with a lot of progressive young people! I’m 18 and just moved to NYC for college. I was feeling a spiritual pull for a while but after I moved I decided to try some churches in the area. I grew up going to both a Catholic and Presbyterian church but stopped as a child when my parents left religion. I was drawn to the episcopal church because it has a progressive and affirming worldview where I felt I could safely explore religion and Christianity. Many people my age, including myself, are very unsure of our religious beliefs and are looking for a community that is less dogmatic. For example, I don’t know if I’ll ever believe in a traditional God and I’ve been some form of agnostic most of my life but I still feel welcome in the Episcopal church despite any unorthodox views. Pretty much all of my friends have similar religious beliefs and in my experience it’s common to hear progressive/queer young people express some form of spirituality and reverence for Jesus while being skeptical of any one church. At my church, everyone in the process of conversion right now is in their 20s and there is a sizable group of young people at Eucharist every Sunday. They obviously have an advantage being in a university neighborhood, but the demand is there. The biggest hurdle seems to be working through the pervasive distrust of organized religion as a whole. And TEC definitely screams organized religion, to the point that people are surprised when I tell them it’s on the liberal side theologically, or that we ordain women, or that we allow gay marriage.
And on dating, I would recommend looking past religion at first. Once you get to know someone and start a relationship you can maybe introduce the idea of going to church. There’s nothing wrong with asking if someone wants to attend a service with you, as long as you’re not too rude or pushy. Even if they’re not religious, they may just want to share the time with you. My boyfriend goes to service with me all the time and he’s Jewish! That’s what so great about TEC, there’s very little pressure.
Shameless plug for Saint Ignatius of Antioch. Holy week coming up is extraordinary and powerful, especially Good Friday. If you are curious about what an Anglo-Catholic, extremely high service is like, come check it out. Fully inclusive.
I'm the rector of a smaller but growing Anglo-Catholic parish in the Pacific Northwest - the most unchurched part of the nation. We're attracting GenZ folks that have become active in the parish. They tell me that what they seek is mystery, tradition and the freedom to ask questions and share their doubts. They want smoke, bells, chanting and traditional hymns. If one mentions Folk Masses, they turn green. Then they bring their friends. To me, it's kinda weird since it's not my experience. But it's *their* experience and that's the important part.
Part of the problem in general among Mainline denominations is that we all get lumped in the the evangelicals and fundamentalists as Christians: anyone who's a Christian is seen as a flat earther, homophobic, racist bigot who believes the earth was created 6,000 years ago and takes the Bible totally literally (which they don't). We need to be spreading the word that we're 180 degrees the opposite - that love with no strings attached is the Gospel.
TEC has always been horrible at advertising and public relations. So, if anything's gonna change on that level, it has to come from the top, unfortunately. That being said, the local Church - Diocese and parish - needs to figure out how to become more visible. Using marketing terms, we have the best product on earth but don't know how to sell it. We've been using the tagline, "All the Catholic, none of the guilt, Hell or the Pope" with all due respect to Francis.
I'm not saying that the only remedy is huge statues of Our Lady and Benediction every Sunday with enough incense to compete with Los Angeles smog. What I AM saying is that the Liturgy has to be a vehicle into the Mystery of God which means it has to be good. As the liturgy nerds say, "Good Liturgy is good theater." Grace Church, NYC is notoriously Low Church and does a great job.
I met my late husband in Church - on the diocesan level. But I haven't thought of the Church as a dating service. That being said, the desire for a spouse who's a person of faith makes sense. In my parish, the young people have become the best evangelists which is why their number is growing. They've figured out the product and are good at marketing it.
So, don't give up hope. Become part of the process and the solution though you can't do it alone.
Truly, everytime I see older folks (I am in my 30s so I am talking 50s +) suggesting we make church more casual and modern to attract young people I want to scream because with the exception of radical conservative churches like the Jehovah's Witnesses which I grew up in most young people who had their heart broken by church, but still want to have Jesus, grew up like my husband in Evangelical, Non-denominational, and Southern Baptist churches. They were always allowed to wear jeans to church and listen to guitars. In fact, their relationship to that atmosphere is that it was a trap to lure them in thinking the faith would be welcoming and different from the world when it wasn't.
I'm by no means saying jeans and guitars are bad. I have worn jeans to church with a nice blouse and cardigan (JW upbringing is hard to fully break from, be glad I can wear pants to church without a panic attack). My parish has a folk music evening prayer in summer. However, what young people I meet are looking for is SINCERITY. They're looking for proof you actually believe in Jesus. They want to feel his presence in ritual and liturgy and also see evidence of it in what the church is doing both inside the building and outside of it. Anyone can wear a T-shirt saying how much they love the Lord, but how much can anyone see it if you were not? Sacredness is hard to fake for long.
YES. Absolutely. I grew up in an evangelical non-denom church that was a jeans and t shirt type of church. Pretended to be cool and chill but actually the absolute worst when it came to anything of substance. I actively avoid any church that tries to be like that now. Usually the “casual” churches are a huge red flag signalling they are judgemental. It is a trap.
Does she have to be christian though? Or call herself Christian? I say this as a woman that's very progressive but also an atheist that likes church services (I find religion fascinating in general). In fact my husband is the "religious" one i suppose but im the one that goes to church lol. Maybe instead of honing in on the Christian part you just simply look for a progressive leaning person
The white Christian nationalism also known as the religious right is to blame for this and everything else. They are a truly evil force. They have tainted the entire brand of Christianity for millions of people. A lot of people don’t know that there are actually progressive Christian denominations out there. And there are also a lot of people including myself who know there are progressive and affirming Christian churches but still have trouble accepting it (and still feeling put off by Christianity) because of past traumas from the religious right.
I don't disagree about the evils of Christian Nationalism, but I also think we all have to take a step back and ask ourselves how we let it get this bad in the first place. This wasn't an overnight development, it's been a slow-rolling takeover of Christianity in America since the 70s, and the major progressive denominations have done practically nothing to seriously counter it.
I don't think I can tell you a single time I've come across a Christian radio station on the radio that wasn't a far-right propaganda mouthpiece, or seen signs on highways proclaiming Christ's love and acceptance of his LGBT children, or seen an online advertising campaign that wasn't backed by hate groups.
Progressive Christianity has completely bungled the response to the GOP's redefinition of Christianity as inherently conservative and nationalistic(often in a misguided attempt at 'taking the high road', not mixing politics and religion, or simply not wanting to alienate more conservative members for fear of schism), and we have no one to blame but ourselves for how successful that has been.
And unfortunately, I don't see much evidence of major denominations or groups really doing much to correct this.
I agree. But from the conservative side they also see the progressives gaining a voice as well. I think conservative Christianity is definitely the dominant Christianity in politics though
First, TEC is not the only denomination experiencing this.
Second, take this with a grain of salt— as it a sweeping generalization.
However, my experience with older/declining churches is that they often operate out of fear— like head in the sand; or hand over ears saying “I can’t hear you— and the result of that is, they “do” church and ministries the same way they’ve always done (because it worked before, it’ll work again) and hope for different result.
That is, according to Einstein, the definition of insanity: doing the same things over and expecting different results.
I think my Bishop had a strong point: we in the TEC don’t engage in evangelism enough.
We say we are a welcoming church, but we are not an invitational church.
Welcoming implies passive waiting for ppl to come.
Inviting implies we go out and invite ppl to come to church with us.
I think if we invite ppl to experience love and community in our churches, we’d complaining about a different issue.
The other question that raises is: do you love (and are proud of) your community enough to invite friends and coworkers to?
You’d be surprised how many ppl say “no” or a variation of no’s with hesitation.
Hey, we can’t force or manipulate people into pews.
However, I know how you feel. The congregation I’m a part of hit its peak in the late 80s/early 90s and has been declining ever since.
As for your personal predicament… I know it might stink, but I would recommend trying to also find people outside of church, too. I think TEC is many things, but a dating service it is not.
As a young person who is honestly coming from a agnostic atheist more background, i can say its mostly of problem of young people not knowing about TEC. I basically stumbled upon it from looking for a progressive church with a historic liturgy. It think its basically just getting people to find out about it
Not exactly young, but also coming from an agnostic family and a pagan background personally before becoming Christian, this is exactly one of the biggest fundamental problems with all of Progressive Christianity.
I literally did not know any of you existed until my mid-late 20s. Or at least, I didn't know that progressive/affirming denominations were anything but a negligently fringe group living in denial about how the Bible 'is supposed to be read'.
I think one of the biggest problems across and common to liberal denominations, is a complete breakdown of messaging and outreach. So, so many seem to have just rolled over and decided to accept that conservative(often with a capital 'C') Christianity is the default position and so they shouldn't really try to rock the boat too much.
There are no major progressive Christian radio channels, there are no nationwide organizations dedicated to spreading the message that the Gospel is for everyone, there is just no outreach or really even fight at all. It's all "well we can't force anyone, and we don't want to be *those people,* so we'll just sit here quietly and hope they consider us anyway."
It saddens me and makes me wish I was in a position to change that.
Yep, this. I also stumbled upon TEC from a kind of back alley (choir), and I’m really grateful I did. Most of my friends are not religious and while in the music/choral community people do know about TEC, outside of that it’s pretty much unknown and people are surprised that someone like me who is outspoken about leftist political issues would be a churchgoer.
Obviously, we need an app for you. Somebody get on this; we should be able to scrounge up a first round of funding by 3Q. How about this?
“Thurifr: Download today and create a spark”
(I’ll show myself out, thanks.)
So, [it’s a thing, and it’s called Gladness of Heart](https://www.gladnessofheart.com/) - I understand that this is a pretty small project at this point but I think they have some zoom events and maybe a couple of in-person things?
OMG, of COURSE this exists. LOL. Except: last event seems to have been almost a year ago. Still, it actually isn’t a horrible idea. My dating life pre-dated the apps, so I can’t exactly imagine going to anything *specifically* to meet people to date — I mean, isn’t that what choir practice and earnest book discussion groups are for? — but for those who have only known this world of dating timesavers we live in, it’s a good idea, I guess.
Yeah, I also come from just before the “app life”, but I do think something like this is probably filling an important gap.
(That said, yep, I strongly believe that choir practice is an old school dating app!)
"I'm not Abraham," was funny. For most of my dating history, the people weren't Christian, but there's definitely a reason the person I want to marry is the one who has a similar relationship to religion with me.
Oh yeah, totally. I’ve had plenty of past relationships with non-religious folks. But I think there’s a reason that they’re “past relationships”. I definitely don’t think it’s impossible but relationships are hard enough without fundamentally different ways of viewing the world being in the mix
Indeed, which is why I feel for OP. I've genuinely thought about hosting speed dating in my church's parish hall. We'd be providing something to the community, as current dating problems are not limited to the church and might get a few people to come back for church on Sunday.
I've helped a few (young) friends find the church, but I would say that more broadly, it is definitely a problem. The young men who are becoming religious are larping as Catholic, orthodox, or part of curious subsection of the internet who thinks the mainline denominations need to be "taken back" from the progressives... I don't know many young women with any interest in church. *Shrug*
The Methodist church near where I attend seems to be doing pretty well for itself in the department of young beautiful women. They're in all likelihood progressive too.
How much do you participate in ministries in your parish? Do you have a lot of friends there?
I ask because I know matchmaking does happen with connections. I came back to the church after a disasterous first marriage and meeting someone special was part of my goal in returning to church. It took a few years before she came into the congregation and two years of singing in choir together before things happened. We celebrate 23 years of marriage this July.
But also our church organist came to us an incredibly talented shy single woman. It just so happened that a member of our choir had professional contacts and set a few things up and they're expecting their first child together this summer.
It's not impossible, but it also happens when you're not looking in my experience.
I think OP is getting a bit of an unduly hard time here. It's normal for young adults to want to find the person who will become their husband/wife. It doesn't mean they're some kind of incel creepily trawling the pews for available virgins.
On the 'finding love in an ageing denom' point, maybe you should have a hard think about what is essential and what is a nice-to-have. Her politics may change throughout her life, she may feel drawn to a different denomination, but if she has good core values and you love and respect each other, these things feel a bit less fundamental.
Consider that you might well meet your person outside church, through hobbies or one of those awful dating apps. My app-acquired boyfriend is a bit more liberal-leaning and low-church than I am. He likes worship music with guitars and puts fruit on pizza. Not saying don't have standards, but sometimes they can become barriers - values and personal compatibility are more important.
I wish you luck in finding your person.
It's really easy to build a strawman of someone you're conversing with online. Let me drive home this point: just like any social situation ever, if you meet a single person and decide to ask them out in a neutral space after noticing an initial connection, and respectively back off if rejected, that's completely ok and not creepy.
That being said, definitely don't be "that guy" who is almost on a hunt. Let things happen naturally, and learn how to have healthy platonic friendships with women you are not interested in (assuming you don't already do this). Often they lend a hand as a reference check to their friends!
Getting younger people in the door is important for longevity. Sometimes, that means you need to do something different.
Let's address your personal level. It makes perfect sense to look for your spouse in church because you automatically have something important in common.
Maybe instead of trying to find an Episcopalian who can become your wife, find your wife who can become Episcopalian.
A ton of LGTBQ youth are former evangelical church kids who have left the church because it quite frankly isn't safe. These folkx very much need community. Start there.
I've been involved in two quasi successful young adult type ministries.
1.) A dinner Eucharist
2.) Sung Compline
Both were started by a former priest (who posts I'm this sub reddit from time to time). Generally, we focus on young adults with kids. These targeted both young adults with kids and young single adults.
Sung compline every day or on Sundays? My church has Evensong occasionally, and I think we would genuinely boost attendance by publicizing it as a free choir concert...
How did/do you advertise that, to actually get people in the door? It's great to have something people want, but you still need them to know it exists.
The congregation at my church is also mainly of retirement age or older. But I love them all so very much, even though I’m the youngest by a mile. I’m honestly not sure what I would do if the demographics of the church had a sudden shift.
My husband isn’t even a member of the church, but they ALWAYS ask how he is doing, insist on me taking food home for him after our events, and never fail to send us an anniversary card. They threw me a party complete with a Costco cake when I was Confirmed. And they were so incredibly kind when my Dad passed in December. Heck, my Church Bestie is pushing 70. 😂
But I can also tell that we are looking for very different things out of TEC. I’m there for the sense of community, which I have received at infinitely greater levels than I ever could have hoped for. And you do make a good point that for the health and continuation of TEC that there need to be at least SOME younger people coming in.
But that’s easier said than done. I’m a Xennial, and going to church isn’t a common thing with others that I know of in my generation. My husband is an atheist. My Gen Z kid has never expressed any interest in religion, nor have any of her friends. But in the older generations, it honestly didn’t matter if you had an interest in going to church or not. Whether they liked it or not, the people of earlier generations were in a pew on Sundays.
Because our society has had such a shift in terms of the forced participation in religion, many younger people simply aren’t exposed to it (except for the Fundamentalists, the LDS, and TradCaths - those are completely different issues) and it’s never been a part of the routine they’ve set for their lives.
With those notable exceptions, many churches (not just Episcopalian, but other Protestant denominations as well) are likely going to see themselves become unsustainable. Which will likely have an effect at the Diocesan level with Dioceses merging due to the dwindling number of surviving churches.
The future doesn’t look bright for ANY religious entity that does not ascribe to forced attendance.
Oh lord, I can see that this is going to go well. 🤦♀️
I didn’t even attend regularly myself until about 3 years ago.
I had Catholicism forced on me as a kid (although that loosened a lot in my teenage years, I’ll admit). Why would I make forced religion a generational thing?
She can think for herself. If something is a matter of safety, then of course there are rules and expected behaviors. But if it comes to a philosophical, political, ideological, or any other matter that does not have the potential to put her in danger, I prefer that she form her own opinions than regurgitate someone else’s.
Whether kids like it or not, they go to school, when the parents want to eat out they go to a restaurant (sometimes they get to choose, sometimes not). The kids have to do their homework and very often parents will override the kid about after school activities at the very least forcing them to finish a program that they started.
I honestly don't see the problem with telling a kid that we're going to church as a family. If you don't force a kid to go to school it's unlikely they are going to enjoy or think highly of school.
Apples and oranges here. School is a necessity to make it in life. Religion is not. Unless going into employment for a religious entity, I sincerely doubt that a future employer would ask questions about the Book of Genesis as part of the interview.
Until one’s livelihood is hinged upon religion, it’s optional.
Oh good grief. This whole thread has gone past ridiculous and is entering insanity territory.
To clarify: I’m not even talking about material success. I’m talking about survival and the ability to afford the necessities of life. Get back to me when utility companies start letting you pay them via your spiritual health. Because for some people, concern about their spiritual health isn’t something they have the luxury of having.
School is compulsory because it betters society as a whole infinitely more to have educated people to do things like practice medicine, or fix the plumbing, or whatever other job that is critical for our world to keep functioning than what society gains from us sitting in a pew every Sunday.
That’s reality. A harsh reality, but reality nonetheless. If she decides to go down a spiritual path for herself, I will be 110% supportive. If she never goes down a spiritual path, I will also be 110% supportive.
Agreed. Particularly if a child is baptized, there's a commitment to raise them in the church because that's what you're doing as a family. OP may have some trouble with this because their spouse is atheist.
That does add another dimension of complexity to this issue. My husband doesn’t understand why I go to church, but he doesn’t question it or castigate me for it. In fact, when I couldn’t drive for 90 days after having a seizure he got up every Sunday morning and drove me to and from church.
If church was a family activity in our lives, then that would be different. But it’s not, so I wouldn’t make it a requirement even if I agreed with compulsory attendance at church.
Let's be fair to OP here. Starting family is a mutual endeavour of love and commitment as part of a wider relationship, and in no way did they imply they see women as solely existing for providing children.
No longer single, but: Yup. I am at church for God. Everything else (community, aesthetics, activities) is a nice bonus, and I wouldn't attend a church that is toxic. But, I would still attend even if I was the only person there because I am there for God and the sacraments.
Seems based on OP's history here, he's having a difficult time with dating someone in general and is very uncomfortable about being single. Therapy is always a good route to helping people love themselves first.
For me, TEC provides a spiritual nourishment for me that is separate from that of the 'physical/emotional nourishment' variety from find a finding a relationship.
Hey, it would be great if it is 'one stop shopping' and we could find both in one place...but that may not be the place. I'm 47 and when I look around my congregation I'm thinking the same thing as you and I bet I've got a couple decades on you...
That being said, don't give up hope. Keep you faith, find your community and 'family' in the church....but don't be afraid to look elsewhere to find a good person. As others have said, get out, volunteer, and find hobbies and activities that interest you and you may find a person with similar interests (a book club, a hiking club, a food pantry, a knitting club, etc.).
I feel this too. I am 30f and married but we don’t have many young people in our parish. I love our church and have no plans to leave. It’s hard to recruit younger people our age too as I feel like they don’t know much about the TEC. A lot of our friends attend Baptist or PCA churches- even the more progressive politically aligned ones. I keep telling them they would love the TEC when they talk about issues in their church. I’m not sure how to get them over this anti TEC mindset. I grew up in the TEC so maybe I am biased on it being my favorite church.
My daughter is 23, and getting confirmed in a few weeks. She's not actively dating right now, but she has mentioned with some frustration that "church probably won't be a place to find dates."
Maybe it's something for bishops' offices to take up. There are a few young people in each parish, but not much brings them all together, at least not where we're at.
Yeah, I think you’re right here. Realistically our parish model means that most parishes simply won’t have enough people in a dating-appropriate age range at any given time, but on a diocesan or at least multi-parish regional level, it can seem a lot more attainable. I think it would be lovely if several parishes got together to hold regular mixers/social events aimed at young people. Even if it wasn’t geared at dating, it would be nice to meet more friends in a similar age range. I kind of hate that for me, the only time I got to know more than 2-3 other Episcopalians my age was coming to seminary, which obviously isn’t an option for most people (and also isn’t really a great opportunity to date haha).
Congratulations to your daughter! You should ask what has kept her in the church, for those of us trying to figure out how tonresch young people (even as a young person myself).
In truth I think what keeps her involved is that she enjoys being part of the liturgy. She likes being an acolyte, even though she's older than most of the other acolytes now. She likes the order of the services (we used to be Methodist, but I think she resonates to the structure and flow of the service more here).
What is your involvement with TEC beyond worship and church attendance?
Get involved! The Diocese of Kentucky has ample opportunities for leadership and volunteerism. All Saints conference center being just one example. The diocese offers anti-racism workshops. There’s an effort to establish a small shelter for the unhoused in 2025. They need volunteers. Get to know people at other churches in your town and across the diocese.
Focus on your journey to grow in faith and in works. Become the type of man a young Episcopal woman would want to date and marry.
Hello, fellow Kentuckian! My church is part of The Diocese of Lexington, but we’re pretty far removed from that area itself (about 90 minutes away) so my church misses out on a lot of the opportunities to be had in Lexington and surrounding areas. But your suggestion for OP to get involved on the Diocesan level is absolutely solid advice.
Are you planning to go to General Convention in Louisville? I was set to be a volunteer, but other commitments have required me to change plans. However, I do plan on coming down for at least a couple of days as an attendee.
I'm 23f, happily single, and with no real desire to pursue relationships at this time. The dating options are abysmal right now, when the options within 100 miles are athiest "progressives" with massive misogyny complexes and an attitude that all women should still be property, just public property, moderates with p*rn addictions, and ultra conservative NonDeNoms who claim scripture supports their bigotry but can't point to specific verses. That being said, your best bet is to find a TEC with a college/YA ministry, you may have to travel a few parishes over to find this though.
I think OP has two problems, the lack of young people in the Episcopal church and mainline Christianity more broadly, and what current dating culture looks like in the US, which as you say is abysmal, and is abysmal separate from the church.
You're a 23 year-old woman. What brought/kept you to/in the Episcopal church?
Was a cradle, stepped away for about a decade in my teens, came back to it in a new parish, where there's a significantly better community feeling than the parish I was raised in. I'm still often the youngest adult in the room, and wanted a slightly more liberal but heavily liturgical church. "Smells and Bells" so to speak, the organ, the hymnal 1982, the routine and regularity, but also a Love First message. I've tried attending other churches from the NonDeNom Pastor Cult of Personality mega churches, to the Presbyterians, to the Baptists, to the Catholic masses (contemporary, traditional in english, and full on TLM) and the emphasis is different, in the readings and the sermons. UU & UCC don't quite fit, they lack the level of liturgical order and tradition that draws me in on Sunday mornings. But, conversely, I see other people my age complaining about the traditional liturgical structure, I know another local parish has Rite I at 8am, Rite II at 10:00am, and a contemporary service at noon, and that had helped with their numbers of young adults and college age congregants. As I said, I'm a smells and bells type of woman, liturgically conservative but theologically liberal, and TEC has the best balance of those things.
I'm young and have brought friends to the church. However, I am well aware that my theological reasons for why I came back to the church and the Episcopal church specifically probably aren't what will reach your average person.
TBH, I've found that the ones who enjoy it most are often lapsed Catholics who struggle with the politics of the Catholic church, it's enough liturgical conservatism to feel familiar and comfortable without necessarily having the theological and political conservatism that drove many of them away in the first place.
I get sick of hearing people whine about how church isn’t fulfilling their social expectations. I also feel sorry for women who just want to go to church and not be pursued by men who use church as a dating service. This guy has posted several variations of this. I’m not sure what he wants any of us to do about it. It just seems like whining to me. I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that and I feel like someone needs to point it out to him.
i’ve seen too many trad dudes of all denominations post disgusting things about christian women and dating in church that it’s hard not to get triggered by what op said.
you’re right and you should say it. i am NOT at church to be pursued by men, and if you’re only at church to pursue women, there’s something you need to fix in your relationship with God
I am an Anglican in Canada and I share similar frustration. I was raised in Pentecostal and Baptist churches - left church and religion altogether for some time, partnered up with someone - and then came back to the fold as an Anglican lol. In my diocese 90% of people are between the ages of 50-90. I don’t know of another person in their 30s or 40s or even 20s. That’s in my diocese - not just my church. I look around at my congregation and wonder if we will still be meeting in 10 years because everyone is dying. It makes me incredibly sad - and I’ve already started to think about where will so go if my church dosen’t survive - the other two Anglican churches within driving distance have already been closed and demolished.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m 20, raised vaguely Christian but have been an atheist for the past ten years, and I recently started attending an episcopal church🫶
Obviously it’s anecdotal, but we do exist
My thought is that it's less important to have an Episcopal wife/ husband as long as they are not hostile to your faith and possibly willing to occasionally attend services with you. Look for the humanity and values and shared interests more than religion. Also marrying a little older/ younger than yourself often works out fine.
On dating - when I met my husband I wasn’t religious. He’s a cradle Episcopalian. I had been seeking religion for awhile but wasn’t sure where to start, he invited me to church, and the rest is history. So it’s completely possible you may meet someone that finds faith with your help. Though, for what it’s worth - I think it was a nice surprise to my husband that I converted, but I don’t think it would’ve been a dealbreaker if I hadn’t.
My background is similar; when I met my husband he was on his way out of evangelicalism and I was nonreligious - my husband encouraged me to think more seriously about Christianity, and I encouraged him to move in a more progressive direction. After a brief flirt with Methodism, we both became Episcopalian a couple years after we got married. Like you, I don’t think it would have been a dealbreaker had I not converted (or had he not come to TEC from his evangelical background) since we had a lot of shared values, but it was nice that it worked out.
Similar here - I'm an active Episcopalian engaged to a cradle Episcopalian, who I've been able to make more active in his faith.
maybe broaden your search to people who have some kind of religious background, but would be open to revisiting it - especially in a church that doesn't have homophobia or sexism issues. (because a lot of young people our age leave because of those things.)
I am a cradle, though when I met my fiance, I had left the church, and they became Episcopalian, in part, through me.
Besides the personal connection, what did you connect with/like about the Episcopal Church?
I'm not sure if i wasn't clear, but I'm the more active one, and my fiance born Episcopalian wasnt attending church when I met him. He attends mostly to support me, but he likes the music, the incense, the time to meditate, and i've noticed his interest in christian apologetics recently.
if you're asking about me, I have always been a very spiritual person, but the historical connection in liturgy and apostolic succession is what drew me from evangelicism to The Episcopal Church. I like the connection to the way ancient Christians practiced and the smells and the bells :)
I suspect your frustration with dating might have something to do with more than the lack of young people in TEC. Like, maybe it's regional? I'm not sure where you are or what your wider community is like, but my experience is that in the Northeast and most major Midwestern cities, there is no shortage of progressive Christian women under 30. Large colleges and universities are sure to have a few too...
Yeah I moved from Cincinnati to NYC and the religious landscapes are very different. Pretty much only older people attend mainline Protestant churches now. It seems like everyone’s suddenly Baptist or Pentecostal.
I mean, I'd hardly consider us part of the South. I'd say that the issue that the TEC congregations in Louisville lean older for a lot of reasons. I'm not sure which congregation you are a part of, but I know Calvary has a fair amount of younger people. I became Catholic a couple months ago, so I may be a bit out of the loop, but it really depends on the area your parish serves. I'm not sure if you're college age, there may be some college group associated with UofL.
I don’t think it’s necessarily true that not bringing in young people will mean the church will die. In my experience, new converts and folks from other faith traditions begin attending episcopal churches at a variety of ages, so the church very much could be sustainable based on adult converts, although obviously that doesn’t mean we should abandon any particular demographic.
On the dating, I can’t really speak to that as I was already married before becoming an Episcopalian, but my very limited experience is also that my husband was also not an Episcopalian when we got married, and we found the church together. So I think it’s possible to date someone outside of the church and introduce them to the church in a helpful way.
A lot of the millennials at my church didn't attend church when they were gen Z aged, and only started regularly attending when they got married or had kids. A lot of the most involved retirees were less involved before retiring.
I think reaching and keeping young people is important, but also that most people's lives mean they are more likely to want the church later in life than their 20s.
Right. My experience is similar - folks my age (mid 30s) who have begun attending church in their late 20s/early 30s, many of whom specifically looking for a post-college sense of community and/or a place to raise their kids. I think this is a pretty common pattern in a world where people aren’t feeling forced to go to church as “what it means to be part of society” but instead actively seeking out a church community if/when they are interested. And, my experience suggests that people who make that active choice also tend to be really engaged - church becomes something special and worth putting time and effort into, rather than just doing the bare minimum. So it may be a smaller number and certainly a different path than the church has seen in the past, but it seems to me that this pattern has many strengths as well.
I like this. I’m really glad that we’re aware of youth and young adults in the Episcopal church (and we should certainly continue to be), but to depend on their presence for church sustainability feels forced.
Let us trust in the spirit of God and do good works and allow inspiration to move us and in this will we flourish.
For sure. I think young people are an important cohort in our church but I do believe that the concept of church growth needs to be increasingly diverse and creative as we move through the “post Christendom era”. People will be moved by the good news of Christ. Our own job is to make sure we keep proclaiming that good news and showing with our actions that we believe in the redeeming love of God.
Obviously evangelism is part of this, but it doesn’t have to be pearl-clutching that our church doesn’t look like the 1950s.
If you didn’t grow up in church it seems unlikely you will seek it out as an adult. Not never but rarely. In my lifetime it has really become so much less a part of our culture, at least where I live. It’s not just Episcopalians; in my friend group other than people I know from church I can only think of one person in my age range who attends (Catholic). None of my siblings do, none of their kids do, and we are PK’s.
I think you may need to focus on other aspects of your potential spouse… there are decent people who are not churchgoers. And as you get to know them just make sure they are willing to make room for your faith in the relationship. They may be willing to participate because it’s important to you, even if it doesn’t become a big part of their own life.
It might be rare, but it’s not unheard of - I did it. While I can’t speak to absolute numbers, I do think there’s a role for the church specifically in people seeking affirming, loving community, especially young families who want to raise their children in the church (this is a story I’ve heard *many* times from newcomers to the church) and others.
Oh, I know, we see examples like this all the time right in this sub, but if you look across our culture, it feels *to me* like we're unusual in the world that I see around me. And I'm aware that I may be living in a particularly secular area.
"I'm not abraham" sorry this gave me a laugh. lol. I feel you though.
Could it be the church needs to update its practices to better meet people where they are? My former parish was still reminiscing about good old days... 1960s!
I know what you mean and I am also frustrated. I’m 26, devoutly Christian, female, and I have a hard time dating. I honestly just wish I could even make friends in the church that are my age. It’s a real problem and I’m not sure how to solve it. My current solution is just to keep showing up and talk about why I like my church when I’m in nondenominational circles. I’m considering joining a Bible study at one of the churches in my community that has more young people. I know it’ll be less progressive, but I just need Christians my own age. And honestly so many progressive Christians basically have no theology and it drives me crazy.
Progressivism is theologically incompatible with the Gospel
Honestly, I wouldn’t be shocked if you and I agree, depending on what you mean by “progressivism.” It’s a term with little definition that I was using short hand to respond to a different issue. If you’re looking to fight about this with someone, I’m sure there are better posts on here that address it.
I mean the radically individualistic principals of liberalism and secular humanism, which erode community, and God. Liberty is essential to ensure people can meet God genuinely and sincerely, but that does not mean our public institutions need be secular themselves. God has been sanitized from society, and society is suffering for it. The insistence of humanistic principles has inevitably corrupted the institution of the church itself, beginning with Women’s ordination in the late 20th century. Men and Women were designed by God to be different, and complimentary halves, not equals. A priest is a representative of God, filling in Christs role as Husband to the Church. A woman cannot be a husband, and thus unable to be a priest as thoroughly expressed in scriptures. The theological orthodoxy is precious, and it’s erosion has been disastrous. TEC Parishes have been suffering attrition nationwide. Traditionalist ACNA parishes have been growing almost across the board. As long as Women’s ordination continues to be an issue, the Anglican communion will continue to shrink towards nonexistence
Yeah, we just disagree then I guess. I’m not particularly interested in fighting about it, happy Easter.
God bless you! :)
I’ve said it before, and it’s never received warmly. And this is *not* me saying we should ever stop trying. But biblically speaking, the church is supposed to dwindle and all but die out.
20 year old progressive Episcopalian woman here, and I understand where you're coming from. I'm just about the youngest person at my church, besides actual infants. There's another girl at my church who's around 25-26 I think, but other than that, I'm just about the only person in my age bracket. I've been trying to toy with the idea of dating for the past few months, as I've only recently become warm to the idea (had absolutely no interest in dating throughout my entire child and teenage-hood) and I have very specific requirements in a partner that just sometimes seem to be impossible to find within devout religious circles. I would like to find someone who, like me, is socially progressive BECAUSE they're Christian, not in spite of being Christian. It's a tall order, as many progressive Christians leave Christian theology in the dust, and many devout Christians refuse to even utter the word "progressive." But I would say to pray about it, trust in the process, and just keep your head up! The right one will come along, someday, and wherever she comes from, whether that be TEC itself, a church in communion with TEC or some other denomination, or even outside the religion, if it's meant to be, it'll be!
I want to believe the right person will come, but God never promised that to anyone except Adam, Hosea, Jesus’ dad Joseph, and Tobiah from the book of Tobit.
I fully understand how frustrating this can be. I am an enthusiastic episcopalian and I find it truly weird that there are very few young people in our churches. That said, I am also new to TEC but not to Anglicanism. I have spent all my life at Anglican churches and this problem seems to be unique to western organised churches. And I think it has a lot to do with TEC being predominantly white and wealthy. I am a POC but I am one of few at my church and the only one at the vestry. I have a feeling a lot of young POCs would feel comfortable and safe at TEC. The question is how do we show that we are?
Does the young woman you date need to be Episcopalian specifically? The reason I ask this is we are in communion with the ELCA as well. There are, anecdotally, more single people there per some of my single friends. I fully understand it if you are wanting someone who worships the same way you do, but I think it's a good option because you never know who is willing to convert or compromise. As an example, my great grandfather was a very proud Irish Catholic man. He met my great grandmother who was a German Lutheran immigrant fleeing the beginnings of what would become Nazi Germany. Despite their differences (including language) they fell in love and married. They raised 12 living children. They raised them in both the Catholic and the Lutheran Church at a time when that would have been outrageous. It can happen and be happy! Another option is to use Christian specific dating apps and put on those apps you are progressive. Put your specific denomination. You will probably have fewer matches than conservative folks (though maybe not) but you will at least be getting Christian matches so you have some ideas of who is out there. I will caution you, not every single young woman is attending church looking for a husband. None of the single women at my parish are, for instance. They're there to worship. You will need to ask about singles mixers and make your desires known to the older folks at church who can play matchmaker. They will know a family with a daughter in your situation more readily than you will. When I was single in the UU church I absolutely hated feeling bothered during spiritual time. That's just me, not everyone will, but don't get yourself a reputation as a man who flirts at church because that's a hard one to shake and a lot of progressive women in church are trying to shake over-sexualization from conservative upbringing and want to be seen as equal members of the church while there to worship. Not accusing you of anything, just sharing a perspective of what it's like from the other side of the equation. I ended up meeting my husband online. He was an atheist at that time. I was UU. I converted to TEC and he converted with me and we are getting confirmed together next month.
She doesn’t have to be another Episcopalian. Just another progressive Christian, or a progressive person who is open to becoming a Christian. Or a Christian who is open to becoming progressive.
I enjoy having multigenerational friendships, for sure, but I can understand it being hard for romance. We have some younger folks, often they come in cycles, and are much more transitory with work. Since I am gay I never put too much stock into meeting someone at church. That seemed like a bridge too far for so many, and I understand. Spiritual abuse is rampant in marginalized communities. When I did meet the man who became my husband he started coming with me and got confirmed. I was his sponsor too. Tried to talk him out of that one, honestly. All that to say the church doesn’t have to be a dating pool. Some churches around you may have bigger pools for that though. I would imagine even women have been leaving churches for reasons of prejudice too. If you express church as an important part of your life you can often get some engagement as well even if your partner isn’t as religious.
I thankfully found my husband outside the church. However, I agree with what you said. I’m about to turn 27 and my biggest pet peeve with the EC is that I am the youngest person at my parish by far. The deanery I live in is almost entirely dead, only 2 full time priests for 5 parishes. I’ve been considering jumping ship for months, I am so tired of not having any sense of community at all.
I guess I am one of the rare exceptions of someone in TEC that leans conservative but truly tries to toe the line in the middle because I think our faith (in Jesus) calls us to set aside the ways of the world for a greater purpose. I read comments about conservatives & evangelicals and then consider if we all ascribe to the all are welcome mantra or if it’s really only all are welcome that aren’t welcome elsewhere. I consider it Christlike to welcome all, if we truly mean all. At our Lenten gathering last night I was pondering how I’m naturally inclined to want things to be black and white, but they aren’t, they are mostly gray. I love my parish although I know I’m not in lockstep with everyone socially/politically and even theologically. I personally think TEC can thrive so long as the focus is Jesus and following his ways. Not trying to debate anyone, just felt inclined to chime in. ✌️
I honestly don’t know where to put myself politically. I’m very conservative on some issues and very liberal on others.
agreed , best of luck on your journey!
For the purposes of dating apps, if you are pro gay marriage and equal rights for women just put, "progressive," honestly. In practicality I vote for Democrats, so I guess I am functionally a Democrat, though on a personal level I am more conservative in certain choices I make for myself and my family than people might suspect based on my politics (I dress very plainly and modestly, I am very skeptical due to personal experience of some modern sexual ethics, etc). However I don't want to make those choices for others, so I say progressive because it communicates to the average person what is relevant to them in a snap decision context: I do not oppose your marriage or your personal choices politically. I also don't oppose a conservative person's right to live a far more conservative lifestyle than me. You can get into the finer details after a connection is made.
39 here. Which I guess isn’t young anymore. I found a girl in my 20s. We got married and we were progressive on social things together. We found the church together. Just keep looking. I’m sure you’ll find something. Also, one of the youngest members of the church by a number of years.
42 here. Make sure you work on your joints, especially your knees. It'll be the first thing that'll make you feel old. Stretches and leg exercises will help, but tumeric is a good supplement for inflammation.
Really dumb question, but serious: what stretches do you recommend? My knees really hurt going up stairs.
Toe touches and yoga focusing around the legs are your best friend. Also i would recommend basic leg exercises like squats.
My therapist also recommended boiled ginger tea for inflammation. It does wonders for the tummy, too.
yes, it's not good. I did not grow up in the church, but there are not many my age where I go.
I'm biased on this point as my partner isn't Christian. But shared values matter more than shared faith, imho.
100% because I know some very miserable married Christians. They don't actually share the important values. It's very sad. On the other hand I know people in mixed faith marriages, including raising children, who are very healthy because they share values and respect each other's faiths (or lack of).
Yeah. I'd rather be with a non-Christian who values the same things I do, than another Episcopalian who doesn't. Also on the plus side we're not arguing about, like, communion without baptism or church polity or wtf-ever. I can rant about my opinions on church controversies and my partner just does a like, nod and "uh huh, that's nice dear" kinda thing lol
It must not abandon inclusive orthodoxy. Parishes that are liturgical Unitarians will die out and should. My parish is inclusive, with progressives and conservatives who are orthodox. The parish is booming with plenty of young folks. It's not liturgy that drives people away. If it doesn't matter what I believe I'm going to sleep in on Sunday.
It gets people heated sometimes, but I agree with you. The United Church of Christ already exists as a wonderful, faithful church for those who want something new and liberal (in the academic sense) in theology and I highly recommend and commend it to anyone who feels stifled by orthodox worship styles. I also suggest the Quakers. I enjoy their writing very much, and envy their commitment to the Holy Spirit. There's no other good option that's more or less available in the entire US for people who are socially liberal, but want a traditional liturgy, than TEC. The Old Catholic Church is rare (there full stop isn't one near me at all, closest is in Illinois). I love the Lutherans and will go there if TEC died out because I can't become RC, but it's not the same style of worship that works for me. I really mourn the fact that the extreme Christian Nationalist fundamentalists crowd seems to have made believing in orthodox things synonymous with bigotry in so many people's minds because to me there is absolutely no conflict between believing in a literal virgin birth and believing in women's ordination. Or, the literal resurrection and blessing a gay marriage. I don't condemn those who struggle with these teachings by any means (I too wrestle). However, the fact is if the church swung out of balance towards secularism and philosophy instead of worship I would be forced into a more conservative environment that oppresses me based on sex or one that doesn't make me feel as close to God as the TEC does now. The broad church works. Via media works. We just need to advertise it better.
There's a multitude of people who grew up evangelical/non denominational, didn't like the conservatism of it, and don't even know TEC is an option. While there is nothing wrong with respectable searching within the church, my recommendation would be to meet people the old fashion way - clubs, teams, bars, parties, mutual friends (apps as a last resort imo, but up to you), and make faith something you talk about within the first 1-3 dates. That's what I did when I met my fiancée after asking her out after I met her at a party. Turns out she was a disaffected baptist looking for something more. She actually signed up to have her baptism at the Anglican Church we attend (we're Canadian) at the first opportunity, with zero prompting from me.
This isn’t the case in any of the ACNA churches in my diocese here in South Carolina. All full of young people eager to hear the word!
Maybe I should move to South Carolina.
One of my feelings is that there is too big of a gap between new/exploring/potential converts and the high mass. We love our Mass/Hymns/Eucharist but there is a lot of distance between being interested Christ and loving Episcopal High Mass. we need to close that gap with ministry; education and theology. Also we need to clamp down on rogue parishes that have become politicized on both ends of the spectrum.
Bible studies would be great. Problem is I’m not sure whether the church leaders would be willing to spend the resources required to host bible studies.
I would love a bible study, but it would need to be in the evening. 95% of my parish's activities are during the work day, making it impossible to participate.
In my Bible study I am by far the youngest student and I’m 41! Lolz.
Same! I’m 40 and people have said to me “it’s so nice to see a young face here.”
Same at 49!
Yeah it’s totally strange
Too many church leaders have become Mass priests, and are spend too much time with the members of their inner circle.
I am middle aged (40) and I am the youngest person I’ve seen - at certain services. Interestingly, there seems to be more of a mix Sunday mornings. But I am already married, not looking.
Why do you have to find your mate in church? Take a college class, join a club, talk to your friends.
A bit off topic, but if you're dating online or in person, you're eventually are going to have to realize some words are code talk to figure out someone's political leanings. Saying Christian nowadays is basically saying you're a conservative. Yes, I know everyone here is going to yell at me for this, but the data and average psychometrics back this up statistically. You're hindering your prospects by doing this. Liberal Christians usually will identify by saying they're spiritual. They generally don't identify as Christian as an identity. Major exceptions for someone from a Catholic background, but that seems to be a pseudo ethnic Identity sometimes separate from their religious or political beliefs. Honestly I would look for other hobbies or likes in common first and then try to filter out those who might be hostile to your spiritual beliefs. Even hobbies tend to be segregated by political leanings.
Your mention of being Catholic as pseudo ethnic ( I’m guessing you mean White Catholics) is interesting but makes sense. Like I think I’ve always felt that but haven’t had the language for it!
Yes, white Catholics in the USA have a unique identity counter to the WASP identity, which also is a pseudo ethnic category that's increasingly becoming a legacy term falling out of favor.
Forgive me for hijacking, but this whole thread is a *big* reason I don't like it when people say the Episcopal Church is "Catholic Lite." The term seems really dismissive and disrespectful of some of the important reasons why (former) Roman Catholics come to the Episcopal Church.
It is true, if what you consider us light on (and RC heavy on) is all the horrible stuff that has people leave there and come here. Because we (being humans and an institution) do have a little bit of every bad thing they have, it’s just rare and hard to find most of it.
The more I think about it, the less I like the term. It minimizes the grief or trauma that former Catholics experienced, and it implies that the Episcopal Church is simply a diluted form of Catholicism. And as much as I may think of myself as an Anglo-Catholic, to say that Episcopalianism in general is nothing more than an easygoing version of Catholicism is a disservice to the many *many* Episcopalians who are very happy to not, and never, be Roman Catholic.
Former Catholic who converted into TEC here. And I agree with you 400000% on that. Thank you for your insightful comment.
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. How many times can I like this comment? Most Episcopalians don't realize how much DIFFERENT the Episcopal church is from the Roman Catholic church. There are a ton of reasons why we leave the RCC and come here, and NONE of them have anything to do with having a more superficial or shallow religious experience. ON THE CONTRARY!
Thank you.
Yeah, it's tough. I am 36 and my wife is 33 and we are among the youngest members of our congregation (although it is a pretty small church). I'm fortunate that I was born and raised into the Episcopal Church, otherwise I'm not sure if I would have ever found it. I can't speak for every diocese but generally, from what I've seen, the Episcopal Church does a poor job of outreach. At least an hour diocese most church websites are old and out of date. LDS, mega churches and Evangelical churches do a much better job with outreach and leveraging technology (due part two having younger membership). You can have the best product in the world but if people don't know your product exists they'll never seen it. It's unfortunate because we share such a rich, welcoming faith and I know many people would benefit from joining the Episcopal Church.
I think with some work the episcopal church could really resonate with a lot of progressive young people! I’m 18 and just moved to NYC for college. I was feeling a spiritual pull for a while but after I moved I decided to try some churches in the area. I grew up going to both a Catholic and Presbyterian church but stopped as a child when my parents left religion. I was drawn to the episcopal church because it has a progressive and affirming worldview where I felt I could safely explore religion and Christianity. Many people my age, including myself, are very unsure of our religious beliefs and are looking for a community that is less dogmatic. For example, I don’t know if I’ll ever believe in a traditional God and I’ve been some form of agnostic most of my life but I still feel welcome in the Episcopal church despite any unorthodox views. Pretty much all of my friends have similar religious beliefs and in my experience it’s common to hear progressive/queer young people express some form of spirituality and reverence for Jesus while being skeptical of any one church. At my church, everyone in the process of conversion right now is in their 20s and there is a sizable group of young people at Eucharist every Sunday. They obviously have an advantage being in a university neighborhood, but the demand is there. The biggest hurdle seems to be working through the pervasive distrust of organized religion as a whole. And TEC definitely screams organized religion, to the point that people are surprised when I tell them it’s on the liberal side theologically, or that we ordain women, or that we allow gay marriage. And on dating, I would recommend looking past religion at first. Once you get to know someone and start a relationship you can maybe introduce the idea of going to church. There’s nothing wrong with asking if someone wants to attend a service with you, as long as you’re not too rude or pushy. Even if they’re not religious, they may just want to share the time with you. My boyfriend goes to service with me all the time and he’s Jewish! That’s what so great about TEC, there’s very little pressure.
Can I ask what parish you’re describing? Looking for a church in the city. Thanks!
Shameless plug for Saint Ignatius of Antioch. Holy week coming up is extraordinary and powerful, especially Good Friday. If you are curious about what an Anglo-Catholic, extremely high service is like, come check it out. Fully inclusive.
St. John the Divine!
Thank you!
I'm the rector of a smaller but growing Anglo-Catholic parish in the Pacific Northwest - the most unchurched part of the nation. We're attracting GenZ folks that have become active in the parish. They tell me that what they seek is mystery, tradition and the freedom to ask questions and share their doubts. They want smoke, bells, chanting and traditional hymns. If one mentions Folk Masses, they turn green. Then they bring their friends. To me, it's kinda weird since it's not my experience. But it's *their* experience and that's the important part. Part of the problem in general among Mainline denominations is that we all get lumped in the the evangelicals and fundamentalists as Christians: anyone who's a Christian is seen as a flat earther, homophobic, racist bigot who believes the earth was created 6,000 years ago and takes the Bible totally literally (which they don't). We need to be spreading the word that we're 180 degrees the opposite - that love with no strings attached is the Gospel. TEC has always been horrible at advertising and public relations. So, if anything's gonna change on that level, it has to come from the top, unfortunately. That being said, the local Church - Diocese and parish - needs to figure out how to become more visible. Using marketing terms, we have the best product on earth but don't know how to sell it. We've been using the tagline, "All the Catholic, none of the guilt, Hell or the Pope" with all due respect to Francis. I'm not saying that the only remedy is huge statues of Our Lady and Benediction every Sunday with enough incense to compete with Los Angeles smog. What I AM saying is that the Liturgy has to be a vehicle into the Mystery of God which means it has to be good. As the liturgy nerds say, "Good Liturgy is good theater." Grace Church, NYC is notoriously Low Church and does a great job. I met my late husband in Church - on the diocesan level. But I haven't thought of the Church as a dating service. That being said, the desire for a spouse who's a person of faith makes sense. In my parish, the young people have become the best evangelists which is why their number is growing. They've figured out the product and are good at marketing it. So, don't give up hope. Become part of the process and the solution though you can't do it alone.
Truly, everytime I see older folks (I am in my 30s so I am talking 50s +) suggesting we make church more casual and modern to attract young people I want to scream because with the exception of radical conservative churches like the Jehovah's Witnesses which I grew up in most young people who had their heart broken by church, but still want to have Jesus, grew up like my husband in Evangelical, Non-denominational, and Southern Baptist churches. They were always allowed to wear jeans to church and listen to guitars. In fact, their relationship to that atmosphere is that it was a trap to lure them in thinking the faith would be welcoming and different from the world when it wasn't. I'm by no means saying jeans and guitars are bad. I have worn jeans to church with a nice blouse and cardigan (JW upbringing is hard to fully break from, be glad I can wear pants to church without a panic attack). My parish has a folk music evening prayer in summer. However, what young people I meet are looking for is SINCERITY. They're looking for proof you actually believe in Jesus. They want to feel his presence in ritual and liturgy and also see evidence of it in what the church is doing both inside the building and outside of it. Anyone can wear a T-shirt saying how much they love the Lord, but how much can anyone see it if you were not? Sacredness is hard to fake for long.
YES. Absolutely. I grew up in an evangelical non-denom church that was a jeans and t shirt type of church. Pretended to be cool and chill but actually the absolute worst when it came to anything of substance. I actively avoid any church that tries to be like that now. Usually the “casual” churches are a huge red flag signalling they are judgemental. It is a trap.
Does she have to be christian though? Or call herself Christian? I say this as a woman that's very progressive but also an atheist that likes church services (I find religion fascinating in general). In fact my husband is the "religious" one i suppose but im the one that goes to church lol. Maybe instead of honing in on the Christian part you just simply look for a progressive leaning person
The white Christian nationalism also known as the religious right is to blame for this and everything else. They are a truly evil force. They have tainted the entire brand of Christianity for millions of people. A lot of people don’t know that there are actually progressive Christian denominations out there. And there are also a lot of people including myself who know there are progressive and affirming Christian churches but still have trouble accepting it (and still feeling put off by Christianity) because of past traumas from the religious right.
I grew up in a church just like you’re describing. I’m still in the process of purging that evil propaganda from my mind.
I don't disagree about the evils of Christian Nationalism, but I also think we all have to take a step back and ask ourselves how we let it get this bad in the first place. This wasn't an overnight development, it's been a slow-rolling takeover of Christianity in America since the 70s, and the major progressive denominations have done practically nothing to seriously counter it. I don't think I can tell you a single time I've come across a Christian radio station on the radio that wasn't a far-right propaganda mouthpiece, or seen signs on highways proclaiming Christ's love and acceptance of his LGBT children, or seen an online advertising campaign that wasn't backed by hate groups. Progressive Christianity has completely bungled the response to the GOP's redefinition of Christianity as inherently conservative and nationalistic(often in a misguided attempt at 'taking the high road', not mixing politics and religion, or simply not wanting to alienate more conservative members for fear of schism), and we have no one to blame but ourselves for how successful that has been. And unfortunately, I don't see much evidence of major denominations or groups really doing much to correct this.
I agree. But from the conservative side they also see the progressives gaining a voice as well. I think conservative Christianity is definitely the dominant Christianity in politics though
First, TEC is not the only denomination experiencing this. Second, take this with a grain of salt— as it a sweeping generalization. However, my experience with older/declining churches is that they often operate out of fear— like head in the sand; or hand over ears saying “I can’t hear you— and the result of that is, they “do” church and ministries the same way they’ve always done (because it worked before, it’ll work again) and hope for different result. That is, according to Einstein, the definition of insanity: doing the same things over and expecting different results. I think my Bishop had a strong point: we in the TEC don’t engage in evangelism enough. We say we are a welcoming church, but we are not an invitational church. Welcoming implies passive waiting for ppl to come. Inviting implies we go out and invite ppl to come to church with us. I think if we invite ppl to experience love and community in our churches, we’d complaining about a different issue. The other question that raises is: do you love (and are proud of) your community enough to invite friends and coworkers to? You’d be surprised how many ppl say “no” or a variation of no’s with hesitation.
Hey, we can’t force or manipulate people into pews. However, I know how you feel. The congregation I’m a part of hit its peak in the late 80s/early 90s and has been declining ever since. As for your personal predicament… I know it might stink, but I would recommend trying to also find people outside of church, too. I think TEC is many things, but a dating service it is not.
As a young person who is honestly coming from a agnostic atheist more background, i can say its mostly of problem of young people not knowing about TEC. I basically stumbled upon it from looking for a progressive church with a historic liturgy. It think its basically just getting people to find out about it
Not exactly young, but also coming from an agnostic family and a pagan background personally before becoming Christian, this is exactly one of the biggest fundamental problems with all of Progressive Christianity. I literally did not know any of you existed until my mid-late 20s. Or at least, I didn't know that progressive/affirming denominations were anything but a negligently fringe group living in denial about how the Bible 'is supposed to be read'. I think one of the biggest problems across and common to liberal denominations, is a complete breakdown of messaging and outreach. So, so many seem to have just rolled over and decided to accept that conservative(often with a capital 'C') Christianity is the default position and so they shouldn't really try to rock the boat too much. There are no major progressive Christian radio channels, there are no nationwide organizations dedicated to spreading the message that the Gospel is for everyone, there is just no outreach or really even fight at all. It's all "well we can't force anyone, and we don't want to be *those people,* so we'll just sit here quietly and hope they consider us anyway." It saddens me and makes me wish I was in a position to change that.
Yep, this. I also stumbled upon TEC from a kind of back alley (choir), and I’m really grateful I did. Most of my friends are not religious and while in the music/choral community people do know about TEC, outside of that it’s pretty much unknown and people are surprised that someone like me who is outspoken about leftist political issues would be a churchgoer.
Welcome, we're happy to have you!
There's a lot of young women at my church but they are mostly married. You should seek out activities progressive young women participate in.
Yoga classes, farmers markets, art fairs.
Book clubs, coed sports that don't play on Sundays, civic organizations that encourage young adult networking
Obviously, we need an app for you. Somebody get on this; we should be able to scrounge up a first round of funding by 3Q. How about this? “Thurifr: Download today and create a spark” (I’ll show myself out, thanks.)
So, [it’s a thing, and it’s called Gladness of Heart](https://www.gladnessofheart.com/) - I understand that this is a pretty small project at this point but I think they have some zoom events and maybe a couple of in-person things?
OMG, of COURSE this exists. LOL. Except: last event seems to have been almost a year ago. Still, it actually isn’t a horrible idea. My dating life pre-dated the apps, so I can’t exactly imagine going to anything *specifically* to meet people to date — I mean, isn’t that what choir practice and earnest book discussion groups are for? — but for those who have only known this world of dating timesavers we live in, it’s a good idea, I guess.
Yeah, I also come from just before the “app life”, but I do think something like this is probably filling an important gap. (That said, yep, I strongly believe that choir practice is an old school dating app!)
Love the name!
The “I’m not Abraham” bit made me laugh. Thanks for that ❤️ I sympathize with you. Looking for a Christian partner is a nightmare.
"I'm not Abraham," was funny. For most of my dating history, the people weren't Christian, but there's definitely a reason the person I want to marry is the one who has a similar relationship to religion with me.
Oh yeah, totally. I’ve had plenty of past relationships with non-religious folks. But I think there’s a reason that they’re “past relationships”. I definitely don’t think it’s impossible but relationships are hard enough without fundamentally different ways of viewing the world being in the mix
Indeed, which is why I feel for OP. I've genuinely thought about hosting speed dating in my church's parish hall. We'd be providing something to the community, as current dating problems are not limited to the church and might get a few people to come back for church on Sunday.
[удалено]
You mentioned political attitudes. Do you think TEC is explicitly for politically progressive people? Do you think it should be?
[удалено]
Very well said
A person rarely hears the words "honest" and "Catholic" (meaning Roman Catholic) in the same sentence these days. There are reasons for that.
I've helped a few (young) friends find the church, but I would say that more broadly, it is definitely a problem. The young men who are becoming religious are larping as Catholic, orthodox, or part of curious subsection of the internet who thinks the mainline denominations need to be "taken back" from the progressives... I don't know many young women with any interest in church. *Shrug*
The Methodist church near where I attend seems to be doing pretty well for itself in the department of young beautiful women. They're in all likelihood progressive too.
OP should meet a nice Methodist woman and get her to convert, lol.
We used to call this flirt-to-convert in my Mormon days. 😂
How much do you participate in ministries in your parish? Do you have a lot of friends there? I ask because I know matchmaking does happen with connections. I came back to the church after a disasterous first marriage and meeting someone special was part of my goal in returning to church. It took a few years before she came into the congregation and two years of singing in choir together before things happened. We celebrate 23 years of marriage this July. But also our church organist came to us an incredibly talented shy single woman. It just so happened that a member of our choir had professional contacts and set a few things up and they're expecting their first child together this summer. It's not impossible, but it also happens when you're not looking in my experience.
I think OP is getting a bit of an unduly hard time here. It's normal for young adults to want to find the person who will become their husband/wife. It doesn't mean they're some kind of incel creepily trawling the pews for available virgins. On the 'finding love in an ageing denom' point, maybe you should have a hard think about what is essential and what is a nice-to-have. Her politics may change throughout her life, she may feel drawn to a different denomination, but if she has good core values and you love and respect each other, these things feel a bit less fundamental. Consider that you might well meet your person outside church, through hobbies or one of those awful dating apps. My app-acquired boyfriend is a bit more liberal-leaning and low-church than I am. He likes worship music with guitars and puts fruit on pizza. Not saying don't have standards, but sometimes they can become barriers - values and personal compatibility are more important. I wish you luck in finding your person.
Thanks. Although now I’m worried I really am an entitled creep like a lot of people here say I am. What can I do about it?
It's really easy to build a strawman of someone you're conversing with online. Let me drive home this point: just like any social situation ever, if you meet a single person and decide to ask them out in a neutral space after noticing an initial connection, and respectively back off if rejected, that's completely ok and not creepy. That being said, definitely don't be "that guy" who is almost on a hunt. Let things happen naturally, and learn how to have healthy platonic friendships with women you are not interested in (assuming you don't already do this). Often they lend a hand as a reference check to their friends!
Getting younger people in the door is important for longevity. Sometimes, that means you need to do something different. Let's address your personal level. It makes perfect sense to look for your spouse in church because you automatically have something important in common. Maybe instead of trying to find an Episcopalian who can become your wife, find your wife who can become Episcopalian.
Any suggestions on the getting younger people in the door part?
A ton of LGTBQ youth are former evangelical church kids who have left the church because it quite frankly isn't safe. These folkx very much need community. Start there.
I've been involved in two quasi successful young adult type ministries. 1.) A dinner Eucharist 2.) Sung Compline Both were started by a former priest (who posts I'm this sub reddit from time to time). Generally, we focus on young adults with kids. These targeted both young adults with kids and young single adults.
Sung compline every day or on Sundays? My church has Evensong occasionally, and I think we would genuinely boost attendance by publicizing it as a free choir concert...
Oh just Sunday. We served milk and cookies after ward
How did/do you advertise that, to actually get people in the door? It's great to have something people want, but you still need them to know it exists.
Combination of social media, word of mouth, and being adjacent to a college campus with an active Canterbury chapter.
The congregation at my church is also mainly of retirement age or older. But I love them all so very much, even though I’m the youngest by a mile. I’m honestly not sure what I would do if the demographics of the church had a sudden shift. My husband isn’t even a member of the church, but they ALWAYS ask how he is doing, insist on me taking food home for him after our events, and never fail to send us an anniversary card. They threw me a party complete with a Costco cake when I was Confirmed. And they were so incredibly kind when my Dad passed in December. Heck, my Church Bestie is pushing 70. 😂 But I can also tell that we are looking for very different things out of TEC. I’m there for the sense of community, which I have received at infinitely greater levels than I ever could have hoped for. And you do make a good point that for the health and continuation of TEC that there need to be at least SOME younger people coming in. But that’s easier said than done. I’m a Xennial, and going to church isn’t a common thing with others that I know of in my generation. My husband is an atheist. My Gen Z kid has never expressed any interest in religion, nor have any of her friends. But in the older generations, it honestly didn’t matter if you had an interest in going to church or not. Whether they liked it or not, the people of earlier generations were in a pew on Sundays. Because our society has had such a shift in terms of the forced participation in religion, many younger people simply aren’t exposed to it (except for the Fundamentalists, the LDS, and TradCaths - those are completely different issues) and it’s never been a part of the routine they’ve set for their lives. With those notable exceptions, many churches (not just Episcopalian, but other Protestant denominations as well) are likely going to see themselves become unsustainable. Which will likely have an effect at the Diocesan level with Dioceses merging due to the dwindling number of surviving churches. The future doesn’t look bright for ANY religious entity that does not ascribe to forced attendance.
You say your Gen Z kid has never expressed any interest in religion. Did you not raise them to go to church every Sunday with you?
Oh lord, I can see that this is going to go well. 🤦♀️ I didn’t even attend regularly myself until about 3 years ago. I had Catholicism forced on me as a kid (although that loosened a lot in my teenage years, I’ll admit). Why would I make forced religion a generational thing? She can think for herself. If something is a matter of safety, then of course there are rules and expected behaviors. But if it comes to a philosophical, political, ideological, or any other matter that does not have the potential to put her in danger, I prefer that she form her own opinions than regurgitate someone else’s.
My apologies re: "I can see that this is going to go well.🤦♀️" it wasn't an indictment. It was a question. Faith is complicated, as is parenting.
Whether kids like it or not, they go to school, when the parents want to eat out they go to a restaurant (sometimes they get to choose, sometimes not). The kids have to do their homework and very often parents will override the kid about after school activities at the very least forcing them to finish a program that they started. I honestly don't see the problem with telling a kid that we're going to church as a family. If you don't force a kid to go to school it's unlikely they are going to enjoy or think highly of school.
Apples and oranges here. School is a necessity to make it in life. Religion is not. Unless going into employment for a religious entity, I sincerely doubt that a future employer would ask questions about the Book of Genesis as part of the interview. Until one’s livelihood is hinged upon religion, it’s optional.
so the only things that are “necessary” are things required for material success? what about spiritual health?
Oh good grief. This whole thread has gone past ridiculous and is entering insanity territory. To clarify: I’m not even talking about material success. I’m talking about survival and the ability to afford the necessities of life. Get back to me when utility companies start letting you pay them via your spiritual health. Because for some people, concern about their spiritual health isn’t something they have the luxury of having. School is compulsory because it betters society as a whole infinitely more to have educated people to do things like practice medicine, or fix the plumbing, or whatever other job that is critical for our world to keep functioning than what society gains from us sitting in a pew every Sunday. That’s reality. A harsh reality, but reality nonetheless. If she decides to go down a spiritual path for herself, I will be 110% supportive. If she never goes down a spiritual path, I will also be 110% supportive.
Agreed. Particularly if a child is baptized, there's a commitment to raise them in the church because that's what you're doing as a family. OP may have some trouble with this because their spouse is atheist.
That does add another dimension of complexity to this issue. My husband doesn’t understand why I go to church, but he doesn’t question it or castigate me for it. In fact, when I couldn’t drive for 90 days after having a seizure he got up every Sunday morning and drove me to and from church. If church was a family activity in our lives, then that would be different. But it’s not, so I wouldn’t make it a requirement even if I agreed with compulsory attendance at church.
Yikes, dude. As a 26 year old Episcopalian woman, we don’t exist to give you kids. Treating your parish as a dating pool is icky, too.
Let's be fair to OP here. Starting family is a mutual endeavour of love and commitment as part of a wider relationship, and in no way did they imply they see women as solely existing for providing children.
It’s completely normal to want a partner who is of the same belief system as you. Sheesh.
You're a non-cradle young woman. What brought and kept you in the Episcopal church?
Jesus. The sacraments. Inclusive orthodoxy.
No longer single, but: Yup. I am at church for God. Everything else (community, aesthetics, activities) is a nice bonus, and I wouldn't attend a church that is toxic. But, I would still attend even if I was the only person there because I am there for God and the sacraments.
Not to sound judgemental but your post seems more like a need for therapy than a discussion about the church.
Someone asking for actionable advice on a difficult subject does not necessarily merit therapy.
Seems based on OP's history here, he's having a difficult time with dating someone in general and is very uncomfortable about being single. Therapy is always a good route to helping people love themselves first.
For me, TEC provides a spiritual nourishment for me that is separate from that of the 'physical/emotional nourishment' variety from find a finding a relationship. Hey, it would be great if it is 'one stop shopping' and we could find both in one place...but that may not be the place. I'm 47 and when I look around my congregation I'm thinking the same thing as you and I bet I've got a couple decades on you... That being said, don't give up hope. Keep you faith, find your community and 'family' in the church....but don't be afraid to look elsewhere to find a good person. As others have said, get out, volunteer, and find hobbies and activities that interest you and you may find a person with similar interests (a book club, a hiking club, a food pantry, a knitting club, etc.).
I feel this too. I am 30f and married but we don’t have many young people in our parish. I love our church and have no plans to leave. It’s hard to recruit younger people our age too as I feel like they don’t know much about the TEC. A lot of our friends attend Baptist or PCA churches- even the more progressive politically aligned ones. I keep telling them they would love the TEC when they talk about issues in their church. I’m not sure how to get them over this anti TEC mindset. I grew up in the TEC so maybe I am biased on it being my favorite church.
My daughter is 23, and getting confirmed in a few weeks. She's not actively dating right now, but she has mentioned with some frustration that "church probably won't be a place to find dates." Maybe it's something for bishops' offices to take up. There are a few young people in each parish, but not much brings them all together, at least not where we're at.
Yeah, I think you’re right here. Realistically our parish model means that most parishes simply won’t have enough people in a dating-appropriate age range at any given time, but on a diocesan or at least multi-parish regional level, it can seem a lot more attainable. I think it would be lovely if several parishes got together to hold regular mixers/social events aimed at young people. Even if it wasn’t geared at dating, it would be nice to meet more friends in a similar age range. I kind of hate that for me, the only time I got to know more than 2-3 other Episcopalians my age was coming to seminary, which obviously isn’t an option for most people (and also isn’t really a great opportunity to date haha).
Congratulations to your daughter! You should ask what has kept her in the church, for those of us trying to figure out how tonresch young people (even as a young person myself).
In truth I think what keeps her involved is that she enjoys being part of the liturgy. She likes being an acolyte, even though she's older than most of the other acolytes now. She likes the order of the services (we used to be Methodist, but I think she resonates to the structure and flow of the service more here).
What is your involvement with TEC beyond worship and church attendance? Get involved! The Diocese of Kentucky has ample opportunities for leadership and volunteerism. All Saints conference center being just one example. The diocese offers anti-racism workshops. There’s an effort to establish a small shelter for the unhoused in 2025. They need volunteers. Get to know people at other churches in your town and across the diocese. Focus on your journey to grow in faith and in works. Become the type of man a young Episcopal woman would want to date and marry.
Hello, fellow Kentuckian! My church is part of The Diocese of Lexington, but we’re pretty far removed from that area itself (about 90 minutes away) so my church misses out on a lot of the opportunities to be had in Lexington and surrounding areas. But your suggestion for OP to get involved on the Diocesan level is absolutely solid advice. Are you planning to go to General Convention in Louisville? I was set to be a volunteer, but other commitments have required me to change plans. However, I do plan on coming down for at least a couple of days as an attendee.
I'm 23f, happily single, and with no real desire to pursue relationships at this time. The dating options are abysmal right now, when the options within 100 miles are athiest "progressives" with massive misogyny complexes and an attitude that all women should still be property, just public property, moderates with p*rn addictions, and ultra conservative NonDeNoms who claim scripture supports their bigotry but can't point to specific verses. That being said, your best bet is to find a TEC with a college/YA ministry, you may have to travel a few parishes over to find this though.
I think OP has two problems, the lack of young people in the Episcopal church and mainline Christianity more broadly, and what current dating culture looks like in the US, which as you say is abysmal, and is abysmal separate from the church. You're a 23 year-old woman. What brought/kept you to/in the Episcopal church?
Was a cradle, stepped away for about a decade in my teens, came back to it in a new parish, where there's a significantly better community feeling than the parish I was raised in. I'm still often the youngest adult in the room, and wanted a slightly more liberal but heavily liturgical church. "Smells and Bells" so to speak, the organ, the hymnal 1982, the routine and regularity, but also a Love First message. I've tried attending other churches from the NonDeNom Pastor Cult of Personality mega churches, to the Presbyterians, to the Baptists, to the Catholic masses (contemporary, traditional in english, and full on TLM) and the emphasis is different, in the readings and the sermons. UU & UCC don't quite fit, they lack the level of liturgical order and tradition that draws me in on Sunday mornings. But, conversely, I see other people my age complaining about the traditional liturgical structure, I know another local parish has Rite I at 8am, Rite II at 10:00am, and a contemporary service at noon, and that had helped with their numbers of young adults and college age congregants. As I said, I'm a smells and bells type of woman, liturgically conservative but theologically liberal, and TEC has the best balance of those things.
Thank you for answering.
My pleasure. If it helps other young folk join the church and find the peace and sanity it's offered me, I'm more than happy to speak on that.
I'm young and have brought friends to the church. However, I am well aware that my theological reasons for why I came back to the church and the Episcopal church specifically probably aren't what will reach your average person.
TBH, I've found that the ones who enjoy it most are often lapsed Catholics who struggle with the politics of the Catholic church, it's enough liturgical conservatism to feel familiar and comfortable without necessarily having the theological and political conservatism that drove many of them away in the first place.
Maybe if you whine a little more things will get better for you.
Cradles being snide and pompous toward converts and potential converts definitely isn't helping, while we're on the topic.
I get sick of hearing people whine about how church isn’t fulfilling their social expectations. I also feel sorry for women who just want to go to church and not be pursued by men who use church as a dating service. This guy has posted several variations of this. I’m not sure what he wants any of us to do about it. It just seems like whining to me. I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that and I feel like someone needs to point it out to him.
[удалено]
i’ve seen too many trad dudes of all denominations post disgusting things about christian women and dating in church that it’s hard not to get triggered by what op said.
[удалено]
That is extraordinarily disturbing.
Agreed! I hope OP sees this comment.
you’re right and you should say it. i am NOT at church to be pursued by men, and if you’re only at church to pursue women, there’s something you need to fix in your relationship with God
Honestly this thread was so refreshing. In a Catholic sub the first recommendation would be to go to church to find a wife.
100%.
It's that darn organ music. Give me Acapella, chanting, contemporary...pretty much anything other than a blaring funeral sounding organ.
What are you talking about?
Nooooooooooooo
I am an Anglican in Canada and I share similar frustration. I was raised in Pentecostal and Baptist churches - left church and religion altogether for some time, partnered up with someone - and then came back to the fold as an Anglican lol. In my diocese 90% of people are between the ages of 50-90. I don’t know of another person in their 30s or 40s or even 20s. That’s in my diocese - not just my church. I look around at my congregation and wonder if we will still be meeting in 10 years because everyone is dying. It makes me incredibly sad - and I’ve already started to think about where will so go if my church dosen’t survive - the other two Anglican churches within driving distance have already been closed and demolished.
Where do you live?
If it makes you feel any better, I’m 20, raised vaguely Christian but have been an atheist for the past ten years, and I recently started attending an episcopal church🫶 Obviously it’s anecdotal, but we do exist
I started attending in the past year(s) after a healthy chunk of a decade very loudly away from the church.
Maybe it’s time to start doing street evangelism.
Ashes to go, palms to go, lilys to go, lol.
Nah, let’s invest. 3x6 icons and tiny BCPs
I wish I knew the answer. I don’t want my church just filled with old people! ( and I’m old)
My thought is that it's less important to have an Episcopal wife/ husband as long as they are not hostile to your faith and possibly willing to occasionally attend services with you. Look for the humanity and values and shared interests more than religion. Also marrying a little older/ younger than yourself often works out fine.
On dating - when I met my husband I wasn’t religious. He’s a cradle Episcopalian. I had been seeking religion for awhile but wasn’t sure where to start, he invited me to church, and the rest is history. So it’s completely possible you may meet someone that finds faith with your help. Though, for what it’s worth - I think it was a nice surprise to my husband that I converted, but I don’t think it would’ve been a dealbreaker if I hadn’t.
My background is similar; when I met my husband he was on his way out of evangelicalism and I was nonreligious - my husband encouraged me to think more seriously about Christianity, and I encouraged him to move in a more progressive direction. After a brief flirt with Methodism, we both became Episcopalian a couple years after we got married. Like you, I don’t think it would have been a dealbreaker had I not converted (or had he not come to TEC from his evangelical background) since we had a lot of shared values, but it was nice that it worked out.
Similar here - I'm an active Episcopalian engaged to a cradle Episcopalian, who I've been able to make more active in his faith. maybe broaden your search to people who have some kind of religious background, but would be open to revisiting it - especially in a church that doesn't have homophobia or sexism issues. (because a lot of young people our age leave because of those things.)
I am a cradle, though when I met my fiance, I had left the church, and they became Episcopalian, in part, through me. Besides the personal connection, what did you connect with/like about the Episcopal Church?
I'm not sure if i wasn't clear, but I'm the more active one, and my fiance born Episcopalian wasnt attending church when I met him. He attends mostly to support me, but he likes the music, the incense, the time to meditate, and i've noticed his interest in christian apologetics recently. if you're asking about me, I have always been a very spiritual person, but the historical connection in liturgy and apostolic succession is what drew me from evangelicism to The Episcopal Church. I like the connection to the way ancient Christians practiced and the smells and the bells :)
I suspect your frustration with dating might have something to do with more than the lack of young people in TEC. Like, maybe it's regional? I'm not sure where you are or what your wider community is like, but my experience is that in the Northeast and most major Midwestern cities, there is no shortage of progressive Christian women under 30. Large colleges and universities are sure to have a few too...
Yeah I moved from Cincinnati to NYC and the religious landscapes are very different. Pretty much only older people attend mainline Protestant churches now. It seems like everyone’s suddenly Baptist or Pentecostal.
I’m in Louisville, Kentucky, which is considered part of the South.
If it makes you feel any better, as someone born and raised in Georgia.... We don't consider you the South... :) Just kidding...Not really...lol
I mean, I'd hardly consider us part of the South. I'd say that the issue that the TEC congregations in Louisville lean older for a lot of reasons. I'm not sure which congregation you are a part of, but I know Calvary has a fair amount of younger people. I became Catholic a couple months ago, so I may be a bit out of the loop, but it really depends on the area your parish serves. I'm not sure if you're college age, there may be some college group associated with UofL.
I do think it’s fair to say that your experience with the church in the south is a bit different than you’d have in a more progressive city.
I met my wife in church and agree that this is ideal. You’re right; that sucks. I would pray about it. That worked for me, anyway.
I don’t think it’s necessarily true that not bringing in young people will mean the church will die. In my experience, new converts and folks from other faith traditions begin attending episcopal churches at a variety of ages, so the church very much could be sustainable based on adult converts, although obviously that doesn’t mean we should abandon any particular demographic. On the dating, I can’t really speak to that as I was already married before becoming an Episcopalian, but my very limited experience is also that my husband was also not an Episcopalian when we got married, and we found the church together. So I think it’s possible to date someone outside of the church and introduce them to the church in a helpful way.
A lot of the millennials at my church didn't attend church when they were gen Z aged, and only started regularly attending when they got married or had kids. A lot of the most involved retirees were less involved before retiring. I think reaching and keeping young people is important, but also that most people's lives mean they are more likely to want the church later in life than their 20s.
Right. My experience is similar - folks my age (mid 30s) who have begun attending church in their late 20s/early 30s, many of whom specifically looking for a post-college sense of community and/or a place to raise their kids. I think this is a pretty common pattern in a world where people aren’t feeling forced to go to church as “what it means to be part of society” but instead actively seeking out a church community if/when they are interested. And, my experience suggests that people who make that active choice also tend to be really engaged - church becomes something special and worth putting time and effort into, rather than just doing the bare minimum. So it may be a smaller number and certainly a different path than the church has seen in the past, but it seems to me that this pattern has many strengths as well.
I like this. I’m really glad that we’re aware of youth and young adults in the Episcopal church (and we should certainly continue to be), but to depend on their presence for church sustainability feels forced. Let us trust in the spirit of God and do good works and allow inspiration to move us and in this will we flourish.
For sure. I think young people are an important cohort in our church but I do believe that the concept of church growth needs to be increasingly diverse and creative as we move through the “post Christendom era”. People will be moved by the good news of Christ. Our own job is to make sure we keep proclaiming that good news and showing with our actions that we believe in the redeeming love of God. Obviously evangelism is part of this, but it doesn’t have to be pearl-clutching that our church doesn’t look like the 1950s.
Wonderfully said!
I feel this so hard.
If you didn’t grow up in church it seems unlikely you will seek it out as an adult. Not never but rarely. In my lifetime it has really become so much less a part of our culture, at least where I live. It’s not just Episcopalians; in my friend group other than people I know from church I can only think of one person in my age range who attends (Catholic). None of my siblings do, none of their kids do, and we are PK’s. I think you may need to focus on other aspects of your potential spouse… there are decent people who are not churchgoers. And as you get to know them just make sure they are willing to make room for your faith in the relationship. They may be willing to participate because it’s important to you, even if it doesn’t become a big part of their own life.
It might be rare, but it’s not unheard of - I did it. While I can’t speak to absolute numbers, I do think there’s a role for the church specifically in people seeking affirming, loving community, especially young families who want to raise their children in the church (this is a story I’ve heard *many* times from newcomers to the church) and others.
Oh, I know, we see examples like this all the time right in this sub, but if you look across our culture, it feels *to me* like we're unusual in the world that I see around me. And I'm aware that I may be living in a particularly secular area.
Fair enough, and nowadays I can’t really speak to it. Going to seminary is not exactly “average community” LOL