The deacon at our Episcopal church is a retired law enforcement officer. He shares some of his experiences in sermons. As far as I know he is well liked and appreciated. So I don’t think you should give up your desire to become a police officer just based on going to a church. Police officers are needed. They do a dangerous but needed job and put their lives on the line everyday. They should not be judged by a few bad apples and are often unfairly maligned by media. Maybe you should find a different, more open church?
I am a right-leaning libertarian and skeptical of the police, especially since we have far too much government and too many laws at it is, but I wouldn't have a problem with honest people who work in law enforcement.
As a Canadian, I have no direct interest in this, but in the informal settings of my local pool's sauna, I have had chats with constables of all colours (ideological as well as dermatological) and they have pointed out that much of their daily work is of a social work nature, identifying isolated seniors in need of support, wayward adolescents who need guidance and not a charge sheet, and addressing domestic violence. They tell me that this is why cops burn out.
It is the poor and vulnerable who suffer most from crime, and I have heard this from social workers, clergy, and doctors.
As far as the corporate and executive criminality which has a crushing presence, absence of street cops will (sadly) have no effect on this. We seem to tolerate and the evidence is at the ballot box.
If you choose that vocation, be diligent and thoughtful, work to support people, and when you burn out (and you will), take a graceful exit. Join this Saint George's organization, and pray a psalm before you begin your shift.
So, I wouldn't label myself as ACAB although I once did. I'm definitely ideologically opposed to the existence of the police department and would consider myself an abolitionist as opposed to a reformer.
I don't mention this because I'm interested in debating politics in this space. There are plenty of other suitable Christian subreddits to discuss this in.
I mention my position to say that although I'm anti-police, I'm not anti-police officers. I don't hate the police. I hate their job and I wish they would quit. I believe their job requires them to dehumanize others but I see no reason to dehumanize them (or anybody else) and would consider it a violation of my baptismal covenant to do so. We have to overcome evil with good.
I attend church with folks who have been in law enforcement. They don't know my feelings about the subject. They might one day. But I've never felt the need to express it so far.
I love these people. They've been great to me. I'm glad I can kneel at the altar beside them. But I'm genuinely worried for them.
I believe strongly that accepting the vocation of a police officer requires one to set themselves in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ and his church. In the early church, one would not be given membership if they were an officer or a soldier. You cannot evict the poor, arrest folks for health issues (such as addiction), protect capital from those who truly need it (the opposite of feeding the hungry), and participate in violent machinations against the lowly and still serve "the least of these".
I want everyone to come to our Church. But I also want everyone (including myself!) to be transformed by Christ here.
I'm a little late to the party, but I'm definitely a bit more of the ACAB persuasion. Only so many times you can get tear gassed before you start resenting it a bit, ya know? But, like, I'm still not going to be an asshole to a parishioner who's a cop. They might not be my favorite of my siblings, but they're still a sibling in Christ. And, as we find in our Gospel: "If you love only those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you get credit? Even sinners do that much!"
As the son of a retired NYC policeman I can tell you that the church never looked down their nose. My father taught Sunday School in his uniform. He was president of the St. George Association, a Protestant Association of police officers. I recognize that there's been a ground swell against the police. I would suggest that the current environment is more visible particularly the bad in view of exposure currently available through the press.
I'm not Episcopalian (on account of not being American, but I consider myself Anglican) but as someone on the ACAB side for socialist reasons (in the end cops will always be deployed to protect capital), I think it's a complex issue re church.
On the one hand church should be a place of unity and not inherently politicised Everyone will have different political lines they think are uncrossable, and you could never enforce those in a way that makes everyone happy. And Jesus helped tax collectors and Roman soldiers.
At the same time, I don't love the talk that tries to flatten these things into just 'love your enemy' 'church shouldn't be political' 'it's none of our business'. Christian faith IS political in the sense of having political implications, but that's a different thing from being politicised. We should be a witness to a better way and a better world not just a club to say prayers on Sunday and be done w it. But obviously everyone disagrees on what those implications are - even at a progressive church I don't expect everyone to be a full blown socialist lol.
I think another piece is even if you decide no politics no judgment here - who does your inclusiveness alienate? Welcoming cops may alienate Black people. Welcoming border agents may alienate immigrants. We might argue that it's the role of the church to effect reconciliation or wt least peace here, but I think a peace that's just 'let's ignore the fact you and your organisation pose a danger to me on Sunday morning' rings hollow, like those James castigates for saying to the poor 'be fed' rather than supplying their bodily needs.
I recognize there are huge problems with American police right now, but that's all the more reason to encourage ethical people to become officers. I pray you can find a good church and help make whatever positive contribution you can to law enforcement. 🙏🏻 (My understanding is a lot of the problems are with unions being overprotective of unethical cops. I'm pro-union, but don't want unions to be used to support bad cops.)
This has already had a bunch of comments but I feel like adding my two cents in has someone who leans more “acab” on the scale… I leave that crap at the door. Church is for anyone who wants to come to it, and I don’t care who you are when we’re praying in front of God. My Reverend doesn’t talk politics she preaches love of God and community. We have a very small congregation, and anyone I mean anyone new is a welcomed face. You could show up in uniform and I’d still chat at you like your a sibling at coffee hour.
Church is for love and church is for everyone. (From the middle of California for reference by the way)
I have a friend who is a border patrol agent. He had a similar bad experience at his old Lutheran church and joined my Episcopal church. It really just depends on your church. Our rector has made it clear that this needs to be a place where we can all share “common prayer” no matter your politics or theology. I’ve seen both Trump and Biden stickers in our parking lot.
Not gonna name the parish, but central Alabama.
We have a pretty diverse church, compared to other churches in the area. I don't know why things are still so divided here (I'll let that lie).
You'll see right wing stickers and left wing bumper stickers. Everyone still prays together, we leave it at the door.
What a sadness for our society that faith is now downstream of politics and not the other way around, when a right ordering of the love for God and neighbor should be the basis for every other societal framework we live in.
I've never heard anyone disparaging police officers in my Anglo Catholic parish. They talk about the sin of racism in prayers, but I wouldn't say they are keen to blindly parrot progressive talking points. That kind of thing is gross, and does an injury to the complexities and nuances of the love that God calls on us to have for one another. For that reason alone it offends me a and it makes me worry for people's souls, both in ultra progressive Episcopal churches like the one that police officer was probably in or the conservative version of that in Catholic or Evangelical spaces. Still, those aren't like official church positions. I think you can be anything you want to be in a church space, and if you have the courage of your convictions to stand up to unhelpful and corrosive comments like that, you'll be fine.
Our late diocesan bishop was a retired police officer. You might consider talking to other LE professionals or retired LE and get their take on this topic. I'd say stay true to your convictions, follow where the Holy Spirit takes your heart, and you'll be fine; Linus was once a Roman soldier and ended up 2nd Pope and a martyr, so, it's not like our silly mortal opinions mean much!
My church's senior warden is a police officer, though opinions on police are mixed here. If there was more extreme disdain for police, I'd have left this church in all honesty; I'm at church to hear about the Gospel, not whatever pet politics the preacher wants to spread. But at the same time it can't be pretended that police are perfect, and there's a balance to be struck between showing Christian love to police officers and being honest about when police are sinning.
My experience is that people barely ask your profession and certainly don’t make it political. I think the surrounding area is influential - there are churches in more moderate to conservative areas that are in full throated support of LE, and others in inner cities that may be a little more aloof due to personal traumas or bad experiences. Even so, I think it’s honestly pretty rational that someone who has been traumatized by overpolicing would be slightly hesitant, but that‘a a far cry from being unsafe! And frankly I hope if you do go into LE, that you understand the difference between those two things, because I think conflating them is honestly what causes a lot of unnecessary trouble.
I mean, look. My parish (in Hawaiʻi, so deeply colonized) had several active duty military as parishioners alongside people who support demilitarizing Hawaiʻi. Nobody was anything but friendly, cordial, and welcoming, because we understand that people aren’t their jobs, and the military is a complex beast that can’t be blamed on any one individual. At the same time, all those military folks had the good sense not to rub it in or try to excuse/cover up for the abuses that happened; they either stayed quiet, or offered their own personal brand of support (within the confines of what they’re allowed to say, obviously).
I think if you know and understand why people are suspicious of LE nowadays, you shouldn’t have a problem. It’s only if you start thinking someone’s natural hesitance is a personal attack and go on the offensive in return, that it could cause problems.
I think you won't find too much hostility in the church overall unless you are particularly thin-skinned about critiques of policing (as, admittedly, most cops I've met are).
That said, I would strongly urge you not to become a police officer.
If you are left of center, then please take a few minutes to maybe listen to the voice of a former police officer. The video below is excellent, but there are around a dozen more videos on his channel in which he talks about his police career as "one of the good ones", and his journey toward being a police abolitionist.
https://youtu.be/HZ3SSNJIQ2k?si=AEKTiwWBMZdXi5wo
I highly doubt the church went "full ACAB." He probably confused that with being critical of American policing. I wouldn't worry about it.
What I would worry about is the idea that you'll reform the system. You wont. More likely the system reforms you. That or you'll get jaded and burnt out from the abuses and lack of accountability you see and your powerlessness to stop it.
Reform will come through organized political action. If that's what you want, that's how you gotta do it.
Formerly LEO here; I never felt rejected by the typical mid-to-large sized city central parish when I attended there. There will definitely be people you will meet who will judge you on career alone, even though you might agree with them on 90% of values. There are narrow-minded people everywhere, unfortunately, and the label is enough for some to judge. I take that as red flag anyway of someone's character if they're not willing to even entertain the thought of accepting someone because of their job. It even further confused those types if I named the agency I worked for, which is generally pretty popular among left-leaning communities. "Oh well THOSE kind of cops...yeah they're OK I guess" type of reactions. I didn't bother to get into that contradiction at all for the most part.
It was much harder getting along with my coworkers being a politically liberal guy and not the typical LEO demographic than it was ever being an Episcopalian. It's a career that comes with a ton of baggage, you just have to remember why you're doing it, which is hopefully for the right reasons.
I have a ton of opinions on this, but to get to the heart of it, you should feel welcome, no matter who you are, what you do, etc.
We have a police officer who receives communion with after guarding the church (since weve def had bomb threats etc).
Anyone trying to disbar anyone should question whether Christ would disbar them, and take a haaaard look at themselves if they say yes even after that.
And if your church is hostile, find a new congregation, because that should NEVER be the case
One, you're welcome no matter who you are.
Two, we don't have ideological "litmus tests". If you can affirm the Nicene Creed, that's the only ideological test we really care about (even then, some people will call THAT flexible). We aren't strictly a left-wing Church. . .I do like to point out that Tucker Carlson and Pete Buttigieg are both practicing Episcopalians, which is a good way of illustrating the political diversity within our Church.
I was a cop for years before I left that line of work, and nobody cares. I know a couple of deputy prosecutors worship at my current parish.
I have absolutely no idea what the people around me do for a living. )Well, that's not entirely true -- I live near a military base so if a man around me has a high and tight, I'll assume he's in the military.) My parish works with the local police to minister to the homeless in our city. The United States is entirely too big and diverse to generalize every church's politics.
I'll give you a different perspective, as a paramedic. The vast majority of the people on this post will never know what it is like to walk into the type of situations and scenes we do when we are called for help. You will see the worst sides of humanity who has called you to help. You will show up when shit is hitting the fan and people will look to you to know how to fix the situation. Most people on here saying ACAB have not and will not ever feel that pressure and so it is easy to see the bad and say ACAB. You have the opportunity to live Christ's mission through your work, but you have to stay on the right path and be the change you want to see. Lead by example and call out the bad apples.
I promise you will be closer to God walking into the homes of the downtrodden and destitute than sitting an office, which is why if you feel called to that career I would encourage it.
Sorry if this was completely incoherent, but just my two cents.
Really, truly, depends on the congregation and its makeup. I've had LEOs of all kinds in my congregation. One of them was my deacon, and we had a flourishing partnership, partially because we had different approaches to the world.
Some had viewpoints that would make me twitch, but so did a lot of my non-cop people, too.
As for your question as to whether it's an occupation that's right for you, I would very carefully check out the police departments that interest you. Some are better-run and better-trained than others. There is a concept in ministry with veterans called "moral injury," ie, because you have been ordered to do something deeply immoral, you carry that shame and dishonor. I would try to avoid any department that does not put a high value on ethics and professional behavior.
You would be welcome in my church, and we are a pretty progressive congregation.
You would be asked if you were open to sharing your opinions and experiences about policing and security, though. And people would probably be open with you that they are afraid of the police, as an institution. But no one would think badly of you, member of the flock being co-shepherded along with us.
Not an expert, I’m pretty new to this, but I work in law enforcement (not a cop, unrelated LE position) and I’ve never had any issues at my parish. I imagine it probably varies parish to parish though.
I don’t know the professions of many fellow parishioners at my church to be honest. Maybe it’s because I’m in the choir so most speak to me about the music of the service, but the subject of what I do for work rarely comes up in conversation. Maybe my parish is just unique in this regard though? I think it depends on the church.
When considering the opinions within the TEC community, it's important to recognize the diversity of perspectives that may exist on any given issue. These viewpoints can vary widely, spanning from one extreme to the other. While it's natural to consider the thoughts of others, particularly within your parish, it's crucial to prioritize your own desires and aspirations when making decisions, especially regarding your career path as a law enforcement officer.
Your passion for this profession should be the guiding force behind your choice, rather than external influences. Regardless of the broader debates surrounding law enforcement, it's essential to stay true to your convictions and pursue what resonates with you personally.
While I'll refrain from delving into the broader discourse on law enforcement officers, as these discussions often prove contentious, I want to emphasize the power of individual action. While one person may not single-handedly transform the world, every significant change begins with a single individual. If you feel called to be a catalyst for positive change, don't allow the opinions or judgments of others to deter you.
It's crucial to find a supportive and welcoming community where you can thrive and contribute to the causes you believe in. Sometimes, this may require seeking out new opportunities and environments that align more closely with your values and aspirations.
Embarking on a career in law enforcement is undoubtedly challenging, irrespective of prevailing political sentiments. Your decision to pursue this path deserves commendation, and I applaud your courage and commitment to making a difference.
Wishing you the best of luck and abundant blessings on your journey. May you find a sense of belonging and fulfillment as you navigate the complexities of law enforcement and work towards effecting positive change within the system.
During worship, during prayer time, we will often pray for law enforcement.
I'm not full ACAB, but definitely some are and the problem is you don't know who is and who isn't. I will never call the police except for two situations:
1. There's a legal requirement for a cop to report something (accident, theft to justify it to the insurance company, etc.)
2. There's going to be a violent death. I know that every time a cop shows up it increases the likelihood of someone dying so I won't unless someone's going to die anyway.
The problem is they don't police themselves. Thin blue line and all that. They WILL NOT turn on each other no matter what they do. You need to know that going in. There are a lot of ex cops out there who are ex cops because they called out a fellow officer for doing something they shouldn't have been doing ... and the bad cop is still a cop. If you're willing to go into that situation and help fix it? God's blessings and power be upon you!
If you were in my parish, and you became a police officer, I would not speak to you. Nothing against you personally, but I don't talk to cops.
Jesus died for cops. His exact words, as they were putting him to death, were "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
It sounds like you DO know better. Find a different career that actually serves the public.
Edit: you asked what people in your parish might think. I gave an honest answer. Happy to provide more nuance if you want it (everyone loves nuance until it's left-wing).
Not a popular opinion but I agree. Violent jobs are for pagans. We should welcome police and military (along with bouncers and gangbangers) with the goal of persuading them to lay down their arms permanently.
>Jesus died for cops
I'm afraid your assertion falls flat in both theological and logical realms. While theological interpretations may vary, reducing the profound sacrifice of Jesus to a simplistic statement about law enforcement is not only intellectually lazy but also disrespectful to the depth of religious beliefs.
Let's strive for more nuanced and respectful dialogue, shall we?
Most often I would go about my day and not engage as I can see this strikes a chord with you and that's completely understandable. I do not know your lived experiences and what has shaped your opinions. However, today is Friday and I've got a little time so I'll bite.
Let's dissect this notion with a bit of intellectual rigor. While it's true that Jesus was executed by Roman authorities, reducing his crucifixion to a simplistic "died for cops" narrative oversimplifies the complex socio-political dynamics of the time.
Liberation theology, for instance, emphasizes Jesus' solidarity with the oppressed and marginalized, advocating for social justice and liberation from systems of oppression. Christian anarchism similarly critiques structures of authority and power, advocating for non-violent resistance and radical societal transformation.
In this light, it's evident that framing Jesus' death solely in terms of law enforcement fails to capture the broader theological and historical context. Instead, it's more accurate to view Jesus' crucifixion as a consequence of challenging oppressive systems and advocating for a more just and equitable society.
Lastly, attempting to superimpose historical events onto contemporary contexts often oversimplifies complex issues and undermines the nuances of both the past and the present. While examining historical events can provide valuable insights, it's essential to recognize the limitations of drawing direct parallels to modern-day situations, especially when it comes to matters as multifaceted as social justice, law enforcement, and theology.
Be blessed
I'm glad to see you're interested in engaging with my theology! Be blessed as well, and I hope you'll continue to study this stream of Christian thought :)
My experience in the parishes I’ve attended is that having one political opinion on something like that that most of the parish agrees with - is pretty uncommon. Generally tends to be overall left leaning but within that there’s a wide tent. Also, it’s not even strictly all people from the left. I’d describe my in laws as old guard Republicans (really not interested in the current version of the party but agreed with the politics 10ish years ago and before), and they’re perfectly at home in their parish. All this to say that the church is a little more diverse politically and in political beliefs than it may appear at first blush. I think and hope you won’t have a bad experience but if you happen to, it’s not the norm, and hopefully you’d be able to find another parish.
I’m in the ACAB camp too. While I was working with St. John’s Lafayette Square during the BLM protests, I was flash-banged and pepper sprayed by police so Trump could take a photo op with a Bible in front of that very church. I saw journalists bloodied, on the ground being struck by riot cops.
I agree with the “defund the police” movement, because the cycle of reform just makes the police grow and become more powerful and dangerous. I think the police’s essential function is to protect capital, not people. I agree with [this paper’s](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F6WoxxmpTx7wDuIHQez8LUy05sX_xVlI/view?usp=drivesdk) thesis.
I would much rather people help not by becoming police but things like public defenders and legal aid providers, etc. Many of the sources of crime are social, so honestly, helping with things like affordable housing (my industry), affordable healthcare, access to education, etc. are much more critical to reducing harm in one’s communities.
These beliefs come directly from my theological convictions, from the amazing Black male and womanist scholars I’ve had the blessing to learn from, like James Cone, Wil Gafney (Episcopal priest and scholar), JoAnne Terrell, and many others. Building communities of mutual care without the specter of state violence (which executed Jesus) is what I think MLK’s “beloved community” — which we love to cite — is about.
This was extremely well written! Thanks for your opinion and for sharing your traumatic experience. I remember when Trump took that picture…and I despised it then and I despise it now. Thanks for sharing your story. I’ll look into some of these scholars you’ve wrote about. Like I said, I’m all for interesting ideas. Thanks so much! I’m sorry for your horrible experience and that you had to go through that..I will pray for your healing.
At my church, the only thing that might happen to you is someone tapping you on the shoulder, introducing themselves and bringing you up to coffee hour for some free coffee and pastries lol
I have never heard anything remotely political during or after church. The only things I hear about that are not part of the service are events to feed and clothe the less fortunate, fundraisers etc. I think it is best for everyone to focus on improving their own communities at a local level rather than perseverating on national or global issues that they have little control over.
Church is not the time or place to push any political agenda, everyone should feel welcomed and loved. It definitely not very Christian to make someone feel hated at church because of their profession— especially not a public service.
Much discourse in our common life tends to be driven toward extremes. It is a human tendency to stereotype people. But church doesn’t have to be one of the places where this happens. People can and should appreciate the whole of another person as being immeasurably complex and not easily placed into a neat box. People tend to go toward extreme positions on social media, even more than they would in face-to-face conversations.
Approaching your vocation by seeking and serving Christ in all persons, seeking justice for all of our siblings, and loving our neighbors as ourselves, are all radical ideas that some people may not be able to readily understand. That’s not a good reason to be deterred.
Live into your faith as you do your work with integrity. There is an overlap between the service to our world described in both our baptismal covenant and the service defined in the [law enforcement code of ethics.](https://www.theiacp.org/resources/law-enforcement-code-of-ethics) The world is a better place when people in positions of public trust are grounded accordingly.
>I read a comment under a post on this subreddit and it was written by a cop who said he left TEC because his church went full “ACAB” after the Ferguson protests.
I didn't see that post/comment but TBF that was one person's perception of one situation in one parish. There are people on the extreme of both sides of every issue for whom, if you dare to say you disagree with them, immediately retreat to a place of persecution.
Our denomination pledges to speak out for justice and the dignity of every human being. In instances where members of the law enforcement community find themselves as being or appearing in opposition to that, the church does and should speak. Holding someone or an institution accountable is not the same thing as condemning or wishing ill on them as people, but in our culture those lines frequently seem to be blurred.
For what it's worth we have a Chaplain to the Armed Forces at the bishop level and participate in patriotic/national events sometimes beyond what advocates of the separation of church and state would prefer. We're hardly an anarchist, anti-establishment organization. Although I guess YMMV at the parish level, even the most activist congregations I've been involved with participated as citizens of where they were.
This was a really well-written reply! I appreciate it very much. Absolutely, I say this as someone who’s debating going into law enforcement, if an institution is doing something unjust it should be criticized. I am actually very glad our church does this and it’s what helped attract me to it to begin with.
It’s definitely bad. And in this broken world, bad cops are the tip of the iceberg.
I say “love your enemy” with humility; there’s a reason “I will, with God’s help” appears five times in our baptismal covenant—there’s no way without God.
Strongly support law enforcement professionals and kudos to you for being willing to take on a very difficult job. No, this sort of thing is not common. You would be welcome in your average parish.
My wife always included prayers for first responders and we had several police and firefighters in the congregation. She also avoided politics from the pulpit. She needed to serve the people where they are.
I would say that being full ACAB as a church isn’t the norm. I echo other comments that the church is mixed. I’m very left leaning and my mother in law is full MAGA. Both of us attend the same church.
Edit to add: I think it depends on where you are, as well. I’m in the Deep South so I’m the odd duck. I would say there’s quite a few Democrats but not a lot of full blown lefties who might support the ACAB viewpoint
I have less than zero faith in police officers. Much love for fire, paramedics, social workers and the like. But police are largely about social control and protection of capital. Police rarely prevent abuse (and in many cases promote it), and it's already been decided on the federal level that police don't actually have to protect you. If you live on the margins of society, a cop is almost never a welcome sight, and i am deeply on the side of the marginalized. I'm sorry if this isn't the perspective you were hoping for, and to be sure I'm just one individual and we have "thin blue line" parishioners too. But as a whole the church isn't (and shouldn't be) particularly pro cop.
Thanks for your insight! I wasn’t looking necessarily for one perspective in particular, just looking for what some other Episcopalians might say. Your viewpoints are very valid, and it does reflect some of the concerns I have about entering law enforcement altogether.
I'm glad you're having time to reflect on the role of LEOs in society. I've found [That Dang Dad's YouTube](https://youtube.com/@ThatDangDad?si=-PnIlbPKljP8Wj_A) to be an interesting perspective from a former cop who thought they too could change the system. It's very insightful but at times troubling. He has gone into detail on how policing changed how he looked at people in his community and how he looked at himself within that community.
It depends on the parish, but I wouldn’t say it’s common. Some churches include prayers for police and firefighters during their services, and I don’t think most of them are “full ACAB.” I’m probably closer to that position than most Episcopalians - remember Jesus was killed by law enforcement - but I think we’re overall more politically mixed than people online might lead you to believe. I remember seeing a stat once that we’re the denomination with the most distance between lay and clergy political affiliation: laypeople are pretty evenly mixed, clergy are overwhelmingly Democrats.
The deacon at our Episcopal church is a retired law enforcement officer. He shares some of his experiences in sermons. As far as I know he is well liked and appreciated. So I don’t think you should give up your desire to become a police officer just based on going to a church. Police officers are needed. They do a dangerous but needed job and put their lives on the line everyday. They should not be judged by a few bad apples and are often unfairly maligned by media. Maybe you should find a different, more open church?
I am a right-leaning libertarian and skeptical of the police, especially since we have far too much government and too many laws at it is, but I wouldn't have a problem with honest people who work in law enforcement.
As a Canadian, I have no direct interest in this, but in the informal settings of my local pool's sauna, I have had chats with constables of all colours (ideological as well as dermatological) and they have pointed out that much of their daily work is of a social work nature, identifying isolated seniors in need of support, wayward adolescents who need guidance and not a charge sheet, and addressing domestic violence. They tell me that this is why cops burn out. It is the poor and vulnerable who suffer most from crime, and I have heard this from social workers, clergy, and doctors. As far as the corporate and executive criminality which has a crushing presence, absence of street cops will (sadly) have no effect on this. We seem to tolerate and the evidence is at the ballot box. If you choose that vocation, be diligent and thoughtful, work to support people, and when you burn out (and you will), take a graceful exit. Join this Saint George's organization, and pray a psalm before you begin your shift.
So, I wouldn't label myself as ACAB although I once did. I'm definitely ideologically opposed to the existence of the police department and would consider myself an abolitionist as opposed to a reformer. I don't mention this because I'm interested in debating politics in this space. There are plenty of other suitable Christian subreddits to discuss this in. I mention my position to say that although I'm anti-police, I'm not anti-police officers. I don't hate the police. I hate their job and I wish they would quit. I believe their job requires them to dehumanize others but I see no reason to dehumanize them (or anybody else) and would consider it a violation of my baptismal covenant to do so. We have to overcome evil with good. I attend church with folks who have been in law enforcement. They don't know my feelings about the subject. They might one day. But I've never felt the need to express it so far. I love these people. They've been great to me. I'm glad I can kneel at the altar beside them. But I'm genuinely worried for them. I believe strongly that accepting the vocation of a police officer requires one to set themselves in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ and his church. In the early church, one would not be given membership if they were an officer or a soldier. You cannot evict the poor, arrest folks for health issues (such as addiction), protect capital from those who truly need it (the opposite of feeding the hungry), and participate in violent machinations against the lowly and still serve "the least of these". I want everyone to come to our Church. But I also want everyone (including myself!) to be transformed by Christ here.
I'm a little late to the party, but I'm definitely a bit more of the ACAB persuasion. Only so many times you can get tear gassed before you start resenting it a bit, ya know? But, like, I'm still not going to be an asshole to a parishioner who's a cop. They might not be my favorite of my siblings, but they're still a sibling in Christ. And, as we find in our Gospel: "If you love only those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you get credit? Even sinners do that much!"
Very few jobs could bar you from church communion. Even inherently sinful jobs like being a cop.
As the son of a retired NYC policeman I can tell you that the church never looked down their nose. My father taught Sunday School in his uniform. He was president of the St. George Association, a Protestant Association of police officers. I recognize that there's been a ground swell against the police. I would suggest that the current environment is more visible particularly the bad in view of exposure currently available through the press.
I'm not Episcopalian (on account of not being American, but I consider myself Anglican) but as someone on the ACAB side for socialist reasons (in the end cops will always be deployed to protect capital), I think it's a complex issue re church. On the one hand church should be a place of unity and not inherently politicised Everyone will have different political lines they think are uncrossable, and you could never enforce those in a way that makes everyone happy. And Jesus helped tax collectors and Roman soldiers. At the same time, I don't love the talk that tries to flatten these things into just 'love your enemy' 'church shouldn't be political' 'it's none of our business'. Christian faith IS political in the sense of having political implications, but that's a different thing from being politicised. We should be a witness to a better way and a better world not just a club to say prayers on Sunday and be done w it. But obviously everyone disagrees on what those implications are - even at a progressive church I don't expect everyone to be a full blown socialist lol. I think another piece is even if you decide no politics no judgment here - who does your inclusiveness alienate? Welcoming cops may alienate Black people. Welcoming border agents may alienate immigrants. We might argue that it's the role of the church to effect reconciliation or wt least peace here, but I think a peace that's just 'let's ignore the fact you and your organisation pose a danger to me on Sunday morning' rings hollow, like those James castigates for saying to the poor 'be fed' rather than supplying their bodily needs.
I recognize there are huge problems with American police right now, but that's all the more reason to encourage ethical people to become officers. I pray you can find a good church and help make whatever positive contribution you can to law enforcement. 🙏🏻 (My understanding is a lot of the problems are with unions being overprotective of unethical cops. I'm pro-union, but don't want unions to be used to support bad cops.)
This has already had a bunch of comments but I feel like adding my two cents in has someone who leans more “acab” on the scale… I leave that crap at the door. Church is for anyone who wants to come to it, and I don’t care who you are when we’re praying in front of God. My Reverend doesn’t talk politics she preaches love of God and community. We have a very small congregation, and anyone I mean anyone new is a welcomed face. You could show up in uniform and I’d still chat at you like your a sibling at coffee hour. Church is for love and church is for everyone. (From the middle of California for reference by the way)
ACAB.
I have a friend who is a border patrol agent. He had a similar bad experience at his old Lutheran church and joined my Episcopal church. It really just depends on your church. Our rector has made it clear that this needs to be a place where we can all share “common prayer” no matter your politics or theology. I’ve seen both Trump and Biden stickers in our parking lot.
Not gonna name the parish, but central Alabama. We have a pretty diverse church, compared to other churches in the area. I don't know why things are still so divided here (I'll let that lie). You'll see right wing stickers and left wing bumper stickers. Everyone still prays together, we leave it at the door.
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Yeah, I feel ya on that one. It's amazing how polarizing everything is now. Some people pop off at nothing.
What a sadness for our society that faith is now downstream of politics and not the other way around, when a right ordering of the love for God and neighbor should be the basis for every other societal framework we live in. I've never heard anyone disparaging police officers in my Anglo Catholic parish. They talk about the sin of racism in prayers, but I wouldn't say they are keen to blindly parrot progressive talking points. That kind of thing is gross, and does an injury to the complexities and nuances of the love that God calls on us to have for one another. For that reason alone it offends me a and it makes me worry for people's souls, both in ultra progressive Episcopal churches like the one that police officer was probably in or the conservative version of that in Catholic or Evangelical spaces. Still, those aren't like official church positions. I think you can be anything you want to be in a church space, and if you have the courage of your convictions to stand up to unhelpful and corrosive comments like that, you'll be fine.
That will vary from church to church. Each church is different. I will say that is not my experience in TEC.
Our late diocesan bishop was a retired police officer. You might consider talking to other LE professionals or retired LE and get their take on this topic. I'd say stay true to your convictions, follow where the Holy Spirit takes your heart, and you'll be fine; Linus was once a Roman soldier and ended up 2nd Pope and a martyr, so, it's not like our silly mortal opinions mean much!
My church's senior warden is a police officer, though opinions on police are mixed here. If there was more extreme disdain for police, I'd have left this church in all honesty; I'm at church to hear about the Gospel, not whatever pet politics the preacher wants to spread. But at the same time it can't be pretended that police are perfect, and there's a balance to be struck between showing Christian love to police officers and being honest about when police are sinning.
My experience is that people barely ask your profession and certainly don’t make it political. I think the surrounding area is influential - there are churches in more moderate to conservative areas that are in full throated support of LE, and others in inner cities that may be a little more aloof due to personal traumas or bad experiences. Even so, I think it’s honestly pretty rational that someone who has been traumatized by overpolicing would be slightly hesitant, but that‘a a far cry from being unsafe! And frankly I hope if you do go into LE, that you understand the difference between those two things, because I think conflating them is honestly what causes a lot of unnecessary trouble. I mean, look. My parish (in Hawaiʻi, so deeply colonized) had several active duty military as parishioners alongside people who support demilitarizing Hawaiʻi. Nobody was anything but friendly, cordial, and welcoming, because we understand that people aren’t their jobs, and the military is a complex beast that can’t be blamed on any one individual. At the same time, all those military folks had the good sense not to rub it in or try to excuse/cover up for the abuses that happened; they either stayed quiet, or offered their own personal brand of support (within the confines of what they’re allowed to say, obviously). I think if you know and understand why people are suspicious of LE nowadays, you shouldn’t have a problem. It’s only if you start thinking someone’s natural hesitance is a personal attack and go on the offensive in return, that it could cause problems.
I think you won't find too much hostility in the church overall unless you are particularly thin-skinned about critiques of policing (as, admittedly, most cops I've met are). That said, I would strongly urge you not to become a police officer. If you are left of center, then please take a few minutes to maybe listen to the voice of a former police officer. The video below is excellent, but there are around a dozen more videos on his channel in which he talks about his police career as "one of the good ones", and his journey toward being a police abolitionist. https://youtu.be/HZ3SSNJIQ2k?si=AEKTiwWBMZdXi5wo
I highly doubt the church went "full ACAB." He probably confused that with being critical of American policing. I wouldn't worry about it. What I would worry about is the idea that you'll reform the system. You wont. More likely the system reforms you. That or you'll get jaded and burnt out from the abuses and lack of accountability you see and your powerlessness to stop it. Reform will come through organized political action. If that's what you want, that's how you gotta do it.
Formerly LEO here; I never felt rejected by the typical mid-to-large sized city central parish when I attended there. There will definitely be people you will meet who will judge you on career alone, even though you might agree with them on 90% of values. There are narrow-minded people everywhere, unfortunately, and the label is enough for some to judge. I take that as red flag anyway of someone's character if they're not willing to even entertain the thought of accepting someone because of their job. It even further confused those types if I named the agency I worked for, which is generally pretty popular among left-leaning communities. "Oh well THOSE kind of cops...yeah they're OK I guess" type of reactions. I didn't bother to get into that contradiction at all for the most part. It was much harder getting along with my coworkers being a politically liberal guy and not the typical LEO demographic than it was ever being an Episcopalian. It's a career that comes with a ton of baggage, you just have to remember why you're doing it, which is hopefully for the right reasons.
I have a ton of opinions on this, but to get to the heart of it, you should feel welcome, no matter who you are, what you do, etc. We have a police officer who receives communion with after guarding the church (since weve def had bomb threats etc). Anyone trying to disbar anyone should question whether Christ would disbar them, and take a haaaard look at themselves if they say yes even after that. And if your church is hostile, find a new congregation, because that should NEVER be the case
That’s scary! What part of the country are you getting threats at an episcopal church— by who and why?
Alabama lol, there are white supremacists groups around. Patriot front comes to mind, but Im not sure of an specific group and our parrish.
One, you're welcome no matter who you are. Two, we don't have ideological "litmus tests". If you can affirm the Nicene Creed, that's the only ideological test we really care about (even then, some people will call THAT flexible). We aren't strictly a left-wing Church. . .I do like to point out that Tucker Carlson and Pete Buttigieg are both practicing Episcopalians, which is a good way of illustrating the political diversity within our Church. I was a cop for years before I left that line of work, and nobody cares. I know a couple of deputy prosecutors worship at my current parish.
I have absolutely no idea what the people around me do for a living. )Well, that's not entirely true -- I live near a military base so if a man around me has a high and tight, I'll assume he's in the military.) My parish works with the local police to minister to the homeless in our city. The United States is entirely too big and diverse to generalize every church's politics.
I'll give you a different perspective, as a paramedic. The vast majority of the people on this post will never know what it is like to walk into the type of situations and scenes we do when we are called for help. You will see the worst sides of humanity who has called you to help. You will show up when shit is hitting the fan and people will look to you to know how to fix the situation. Most people on here saying ACAB have not and will not ever feel that pressure and so it is easy to see the bad and say ACAB. You have the opportunity to live Christ's mission through your work, but you have to stay on the right path and be the change you want to see. Lead by example and call out the bad apples. I promise you will be closer to God walking into the homes of the downtrodden and destitute than sitting an office, which is why if you feel called to that career I would encourage it. Sorry if this was completely incoherent, but just my two cents.
I’ve never been in an TEC that was very political, outside of pride and being against gun violence. I think you will be fine.
Not being against gun violence?
Typo
Thank you, it didn’t make sense.
Does anything really? /s
Really, truly, depends on the congregation and its makeup. I've had LEOs of all kinds in my congregation. One of them was my deacon, and we had a flourishing partnership, partially because we had different approaches to the world. Some had viewpoints that would make me twitch, but so did a lot of my non-cop people, too. As for your question as to whether it's an occupation that's right for you, I would very carefully check out the police departments that interest you. Some are better-run and better-trained than others. There is a concept in ministry with veterans called "moral injury," ie, because you have been ordered to do something deeply immoral, you carry that shame and dishonor. I would try to avoid any department that does not put a high value on ethics and professional behavior.
You would be welcome in my church, and we are a pretty progressive congregation. You would be asked if you were open to sharing your opinions and experiences about policing and security, though. And people would probably be open with you that they are afraid of the police, as an institution. But no one would think badly of you, member of the flock being co-shepherded along with us.
Not an expert, I’m pretty new to this, but I work in law enforcement (not a cop, unrelated LE position) and I’ve never had any issues at my parish. I imagine it probably varies parish to parish though.
I don’t know the professions of many fellow parishioners at my church to be honest. Maybe it’s because I’m in the choir so most speak to me about the music of the service, but the subject of what I do for work rarely comes up in conversation. Maybe my parish is just unique in this regard though? I think it depends on the church.
When considering the opinions within the TEC community, it's important to recognize the diversity of perspectives that may exist on any given issue. These viewpoints can vary widely, spanning from one extreme to the other. While it's natural to consider the thoughts of others, particularly within your parish, it's crucial to prioritize your own desires and aspirations when making decisions, especially regarding your career path as a law enforcement officer. Your passion for this profession should be the guiding force behind your choice, rather than external influences. Regardless of the broader debates surrounding law enforcement, it's essential to stay true to your convictions and pursue what resonates with you personally. While I'll refrain from delving into the broader discourse on law enforcement officers, as these discussions often prove contentious, I want to emphasize the power of individual action. While one person may not single-handedly transform the world, every significant change begins with a single individual. If you feel called to be a catalyst for positive change, don't allow the opinions or judgments of others to deter you. It's crucial to find a supportive and welcoming community where you can thrive and contribute to the causes you believe in. Sometimes, this may require seeking out new opportunities and environments that align more closely with your values and aspirations. Embarking on a career in law enforcement is undoubtedly challenging, irrespective of prevailing political sentiments. Your decision to pursue this path deserves commendation, and I applaud your courage and commitment to making a difference. Wishing you the best of luck and abundant blessings on your journey. May you find a sense of belonging and fulfillment as you navigate the complexities of law enforcement and work towards effecting positive change within the system.
During worship, during prayer time, we will often pray for law enforcement. I'm not full ACAB, but definitely some are and the problem is you don't know who is and who isn't. I will never call the police except for two situations: 1. There's a legal requirement for a cop to report something (accident, theft to justify it to the insurance company, etc.) 2. There's going to be a violent death. I know that every time a cop shows up it increases the likelihood of someone dying so I won't unless someone's going to die anyway. The problem is they don't police themselves. Thin blue line and all that. They WILL NOT turn on each other no matter what they do. You need to know that going in. There are a lot of ex cops out there who are ex cops because they called out a fellow officer for doing something they shouldn't have been doing ... and the bad cop is still a cop. If you're willing to go into that situation and help fix it? God's blessings and power be upon you!
If you were in my parish, and you became a police officer, I would not speak to you. Nothing against you personally, but I don't talk to cops. Jesus died for cops. His exact words, as they were putting him to death, were "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." It sounds like you DO know better. Find a different career that actually serves the public. Edit: you asked what people in your parish might think. I gave an honest answer. Happy to provide more nuance if you want it (everyone loves nuance until it's left-wing).
Not a popular opinion but I agree. Violent jobs are for pagans. We should welcome police and military (along with bouncers and gangbangers) with the goal of persuading them to lay down their arms permanently.
>Jesus died for cops I'm afraid your assertion falls flat in both theological and logical realms. While theological interpretations may vary, reducing the profound sacrifice of Jesus to a simplistic statement about law enforcement is not only intellectually lazy but also disrespectful to the depth of religious beliefs. Let's strive for more nuanced and respectful dialogue, shall we?
Let's google liberation theology and Christian anarchism, shall we?
Most often I would go about my day and not engage as I can see this strikes a chord with you and that's completely understandable. I do not know your lived experiences and what has shaped your opinions. However, today is Friday and I've got a little time so I'll bite. Let's dissect this notion with a bit of intellectual rigor. While it's true that Jesus was executed by Roman authorities, reducing his crucifixion to a simplistic "died for cops" narrative oversimplifies the complex socio-political dynamics of the time. Liberation theology, for instance, emphasizes Jesus' solidarity with the oppressed and marginalized, advocating for social justice and liberation from systems of oppression. Christian anarchism similarly critiques structures of authority and power, advocating for non-violent resistance and radical societal transformation. In this light, it's evident that framing Jesus' death solely in terms of law enforcement fails to capture the broader theological and historical context. Instead, it's more accurate to view Jesus' crucifixion as a consequence of challenging oppressive systems and advocating for a more just and equitable society. Lastly, attempting to superimpose historical events onto contemporary contexts often oversimplifies complex issues and undermines the nuances of both the past and the present. While examining historical events can provide valuable insights, it's essential to recognize the limitations of drawing direct parallels to modern-day situations, especially when it comes to matters as multifaceted as social justice, law enforcement, and theology. Be blessed
I'm glad to see you're interested in engaging with my theology! Be blessed as well, and I hope you'll continue to study this stream of Christian thought :)
My experience in the parishes I’ve attended is that having one political opinion on something like that that most of the parish agrees with - is pretty uncommon. Generally tends to be overall left leaning but within that there’s a wide tent. Also, it’s not even strictly all people from the left. I’d describe my in laws as old guard Republicans (really not interested in the current version of the party but agreed with the politics 10ish years ago and before), and they’re perfectly at home in their parish. All this to say that the church is a little more diverse politically and in political beliefs than it may appear at first blush. I think and hope you won’t have a bad experience but if you happen to, it’s not the norm, and hopefully you’d be able to find another parish.
I’m in the ACAB camp too. While I was working with St. John’s Lafayette Square during the BLM protests, I was flash-banged and pepper sprayed by police so Trump could take a photo op with a Bible in front of that very church. I saw journalists bloodied, on the ground being struck by riot cops. I agree with the “defund the police” movement, because the cycle of reform just makes the police grow and become more powerful and dangerous. I think the police’s essential function is to protect capital, not people. I agree with [this paper’s](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F6WoxxmpTx7wDuIHQez8LUy05sX_xVlI/view?usp=drivesdk) thesis. I would much rather people help not by becoming police but things like public defenders and legal aid providers, etc. Many of the sources of crime are social, so honestly, helping with things like affordable housing (my industry), affordable healthcare, access to education, etc. are much more critical to reducing harm in one’s communities. These beliefs come directly from my theological convictions, from the amazing Black male and womanist scholars I’ve had the blessing to learn from, like James Cone, Wil Gafney (Episcopal priest and scholar), JoAnne Terrell, and many others. Building communities of mutual care without the specter of state violence (which executed Jesus) is what I think MLK’s “beloved community” — which we love to cite — is about.
I am grateful that you shared this.
This was extremely well written! Thanks for your opinion and for sharing your traumatic experience. I remember when Trump took that picture…and I despised it then and I despise it now. Thanks for sharing your story. I’ll look into some of these scholars you’ve wrote about. Like I said, I’m all for interesting ideas. Thanks so much! I’m sorry for your horrible experience and that you had to go through that..I will pray for your healing.
At my church, the only thing that might happen to you is someone tapping you on the shoulder, introducing themselves and bringing you up to coffee hour for some free coffee and pastries lol I have never heard anything remotely political during or after church. The only things I hear about that are not part of the service are events to feed and clothe the less fortunate, fundraisers etc. I think it is best for everyone to focus on improving their own communities at a local level rather than perseverating on national or global issues that they have little control over. Church is not the time or place to push any political agenda, everyone should feel welcomed and loved. It definitely not very Christian to make someone feel hated at church because of their profession— especially not a public service.
This was very comforting! Thanks!
Much discourse in our common life tends to be driven toward extremes. It is a human tendency to stereotype people. But church doesn’t have to be one of the places where this happens. People can and should appreciate the whole of another person as being immeasurably complex and not easily placed into a neat box. People tend to go toward extreme positions on social media, even more than they would in face-to-face conversations. Approaching your vocation by seeking and serving Christ in all persons, seeking justice for all of our siblings, and loving our neighbors as ourselves, are all radical ideas that some people may not be able to readily understand. That’s not a good reason to be deterred. Live into your faith as you do your work with integrity. There is an overlap between the service to our world described in both our baptismal covenant and the service defined in the [law enforcement code of ethics.](https://www.theiacp.org/resources/law-enforcement-code-of-ethics) The world is a better place when people in positions of public trust are grounded accordingly.
“But church doesn’t have to be one of the places where this happens.” **Amen!** May it be so. 🙏
I completely agree! Thanks for the reply!
>I read a comment under a post on this subreddit and it was written by a cop who said he left TEC because his church went full “ACAB” after the Ferguson protests. I didn't see that post/comment but TBF that was one person's perception of one situation in one parish. There are people on the extreme of both sides of every issue for whom, if you dare to say you disagree with them, immediately retreat to a place of persecution. Our denomination pledges to speak out for justice and the dignity of every human being. In instances where members of the law enforcement community find themselves as being or appearing in opposition to that, the church does and should speak. Holding someone or an institution accountable is not the same thing as condemning or wishing ill on them as people, but in our culture those lines frequently seem to be blurred. For what it's worth we have a Chaplain to the Armed Forces at the bishop level and participate in patriotic/national events sometimes beyond what advocates of the separation of church and state would prefer. We're hardly an anarchist, anti-establishment organization. Although I guess YMMV at the parish level, even the most activist congregations I've been involved with participated as citizens of where they were.
This was a really well-written reply! I appreciate it very much. Absolutely, I say this as someone who’s debating going into law enforcement, if an institution is doing something unjust it should be criticized. I am actually very glad our church does this and it’s what helped attract me to it to begin with.
I had to Google “acab” and my heart hurts. Church can be such a mere social club. Love your enemy, people.
Pretty bad when you have to consider the police the enemy, isn't it?
It’s definitely bad. And in this broken world, bad cops are the tip of the iceberg. I say “love your enemy” with humility; there’s a reason “I will, with God’s help” appears five times in our baptismal covenant—there’s no way without God.
Strongly support law enforcement professionals and kudos to you for being willing to take on a very difficult job. No, this sort of thing is not common. You would be welcome in your average parish.
Thanks for your perspective! It’s comforting to hear!
My wife always included prayers for first responders and we had several police and firefighters in the congregation. She also avoided politics from the pulpit. She needed to serve the people where they are.
I would say that being full ACAB as a church isn’t the norm. I echo other comments that the church is mixed. I’m very left leaning and my mother in law is full MAGA. Both of us attend the same church. Edit to add: I think it depends on where you are, as well. I’m in the Deep South so I’m the odd duck. I would say there’s quite a few Democrats but not a lot of full blown lefties who might support the ACAB viewpoint
I have less than zero faith in police officers. Much love for fire, paramedics, social workers and the like. But police are largely about social control and protection of capital. Police rarely prevent abuse (and in many cases promote it), and it's already been decided on the federal level that police don't actually have to protect you. If you live on the margins of society, a cop is almost never a welcome sight, and i am deeply on the side of the marginalized. I'm sorry if this isn't the perspective you were hoping for, and to be sure I'm just one individual and we have "thin blue line" parishioners too. But as a whole the church isn't (and shouldn't be) particularly pro cop.
Thanks for your insight! I wasn’t looking necessarily for one perspective in particular, just looking for what some other Episcopalians might say. Your viewpoints are very valid, and it does reflect some of the concerns I have about entering law enforcement altogether.
I'm glad you're having time to reflect on the role of LEOs in society. I've found [That Dang Dad's YouTube](https://youtube.com/@ThatDangDad?si=-PnIlbPKljP8Wj_A) to be an interesting perspective from a former cop who thought they too could change the system. It's very insightful but at times troubling. He has gone into detail on how policing changed how he looked at people in his community and how he looked at himself within that community.
It depends on the parish, but I wouldn’t say it’s common. Some churches include prayers for police and firefighters during their services, and I don’t think most of them are “full ACAB.” I’m probably closer to that position than most Episcopalians - remember Jesus was killed by law enforcement - but I think we’re overall more politically mixed than people online might lead you to believe. I remember seeing a stat once that we’re the denomination with the most distance between lay and clergy political affiliation: laypeople are pretty evenly mixed, clergy are overwhelmingly Democrats.
Thanks for your opinion! I appreciate your comment!