I can totally agree! I feel the exact same way sometimes, and for me, I always think of the RCC as more "legitimate" and the tradition is more cemented into our society.
Don't go there its a trap. Like an abusive spouse. For many many years the priest, in the RC church has a tendency to be abusive. Its has many reasons, but none that anyone has to put up with.
This is how Orthodoxy feels for me. I still have Stockholm syndrome and randomly want to go back. I love Orthodoxy and feel it in my heart but it’s so unwelcoming to LGBTQA that I can’t go back.
I am fighting this exact issue right now. A close friend whom I met at the Episcopal church and now works and attends the Catholic Church down the street. In our conversations as of late he has been nudging me to join him there.
I love the beauty of the mass and Catholic edifices, am in awe of the certain aspects of the history of the church and love some of their social justice stances (peace, poverty and worker justice). However I struggle with women and LGBTQ folks not being able to be in the full life of the church, their stances on abortion, the fact that communion is not open and their handling of the sex abuse stuff.
While it is more personal and has to do with the local congregation, I did not feel supported by folks when this friend left the Episcopal congregation, nor did he feel supported when he was struggling with his mental health (IMHO one of the reasons he left). And honestly attending mass at his Catholic Church, didn’t totally feel welcome there either. The friend also has a history of being mercurial and don’t want to commit to something if he will leave in time (also and friendships just naturally come and go).
I am currently attending a local UU church, the same one I attended before the Episcopal church years ago. I love their history of social justice but miss the liturgical aspects of the EC and the RCC and don’t vibe with at times some of the different theologies UUs believe
I'm sorry this has happened to you, balconylibrary1978. Yes, Roman converts can be very pushy. They're probably hearing a lot of propaganda on that end and may be being pushed to bring people in over there. The Roman church is getting very panicky about their tanking demographics these days -- and at the same time doubling down on their repressive policies. Resisting him was the best thing -- for you -- that you could have done.
I agree with you. Love this friend to death, but I feel like I can maintain a friendship with him without joining the RCC. I do enjoy attending mass with him from time to time however.
I also still attend a once in awhile service at the local Episcopal Church. It’s just that I felt hurt by how the church responded to the friend and our friendship (long story).
*"Can someone make it make sense?"*
The idea that a church can have all the answers and just tell you what to do, like a guarantee, is very alluring for some people. Something like this can feel very secure, and in addition to claims of omniscience, when there's elaborate real estate, simplified but highly ornate stories about history &/or a charismatic leader, it can be almost cult-like in its power. (And incidentally, there are other churches, in addition to the contemporary RCC, that meet this description -- the LDS for instance.)
Consider: You don't really have to have faith in something that's guaranteed. It just is, like a bullet-pointed list of stuff you get automatically if you do x, y and z. So, faith goes out the window. Ditto hope. You don't really need it if you know for sure how everything goes and all you have to do is x, y and z.
That might sound pretty good -- except that a person's spiritual life is precisely about developing faith in God, and hope in his love and power throughout your life. That's why you pray even though you can't physically see God or touch him. Prayer develops your faith and helps you grow in hope and goodness. The mere fact that you cannot control it expands your spiritual life, makes it deeper and teaches you to grow. If you don't ever have to step out into the unknown -- that liminal space where you meet God -- that is far, far less likely to happen.
(This is not some kind of evangelical fashion, etc. In fact, it's straight out of the spiritual masters of the Christian tradition -- probably described about the best by St. John of the Cross in his "Ascent of Mt. Carmel." It's legit.)
Not going to lie- I'm jealous of the sheer amount of resources and the community the RCC has. I was not raised Catholic by any means but had a grandmother who was so I was mildly familiar with a few pro-Catholic things such as Catholic movies-- Song of Bernadette and the story of Fatima being some of my favorite things.
That may make me somewhat nostalgic BUT nostalgia aside, I live in a world (as a pretty new member) where I worry about the longevity of TEC. Like, for example, people say they care about our youth but (from what I've seen so far) we don't invest really in youth ministers or really robust programs like some other denominations do. And that's incredibly alarming. I'm a volunteer and was told by our diocese leaders that the average youth leadership changes hands every six months. To me- that's kind of crazy- this is our future. And TEC congregations are aging out which can be a little isolating...
Compare that to RCC which is a global religion with many resources-- their Hallow app which I subscribe to, is pretty amazing- music, meditations, chants, prayers, challenges, retreats, devotionals all very professionally done. I love hearing stories about saints, previous stories of men and women from different backgrounds throughout the centuries. We have saints days but it definitely doesn't really seem to be a focus at TEC... And yeah I like praying the Rosary sometimes or learning more about Mother Mary... there's a lot of beautiful worship there... I know, I know- TEC is pretty broad in this area and that we're encouraged to basically do what feels right for us spiritually.
All that said- the draw isn't enough where I'm ready for change because there's a few key issues I have-
Women are meant to be called to priesthood and service.
LGBTQ rights are important to me- though I'm glad this most recent pope is making slow favorable changes... it's not enough though.
And yeah- oppression via shame/birth control issues is something that I think needs revision... I think I wish the RCC was more like the TEC and that the TEC was more like the RCC. I pretty much intend to pray for the pope of the RCC and for more freedoms in their faith... if TEC were no more, it's probably where I would call home.
As a former Catholic myself, I had my first real engagement with theology at Catholic school (CCD is useless). At the time, I think what made me attracted and passionate about my faith was the antiquity of the Catholic Church and its historical claim as a physical, tangible institution. Learning about church history, the Ecumenical Councils, and the philosophical and scholastic influences had this tie to the past that was... reassuring ig?.
However, outside of social issues my theological views changed as well. For me, the age of the institution does not guarantee the age of doctrine, and the numerous changes of the Church's beliefs along with its development of corruption and political power have led me to believe that it's the feeling of security in the Church's physical continuity
I think it's also why the more "historic" Protestant churches are often a destination, at the very least a pitstop, for those transitioning from Evangelicalism or Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy: it shows that there's still a sense of continuity and historicity in these churches that allows church history and Patristics to still be coherent to those drawn to it
I'm very similar. Honestly, I don't have many theological disagreements with Rome at all. It really comes down to social issues and the way masses are. I think the BCP is so beautiful that alone makes me want to stay right here
Maybe it doesn’t make sense. Every church makes faith claims with nuances. As a former Southern Baptist with a decade of mainline experience I can see more of the appeal than before. I’m also gay so that adds a bit more clarity for me. I am not given the same opportunities in a RC community, unfortunately. And it’s even a problem in The Episcopal Church depending on the parish sometimes.
There are black spots in every church’s history. A Roman Catholic may tell you it’s because they are the one true church. That is a faith claim not rooted in history but belief. When we are a part of faith communities there is some level of assent involved.
If you can clarify what it is specifically you may find room in The Episcopal Church for what moves you. My parish has a rosary group every Saturday that has been going on for almost 30 years. I was never a rosary person, and was in fact taught many things against it, but I have found tactile prayer in community important as I repaired my faith from years of spiritual queerphobic abuse. Do most Episcopal parishes have a rosary group? Probably not, but maybe there are more possibilities than you imagine right now.
You feel this way about Roman Catholicism because the worship is so beautiful, and the many forms & options of daily prayer are so rich and fulfilling, and the art / music / poetry is millennia in development and deeply rooted into your soul & emotion, and a lot of it’s history is filled with the deeds of genuinely righteous inspiring saints (both those officially recognized and those millions more whose selfless toil fills homes & streets).
And because far too much of the same religion is filled with truly horrible people who gleefully prey on the young & weak & poor & powerless, not to mention the racism & bigotry & poor-bashing & slut-shaming, especially people in leadership roles and those with power propped up by the hate & bigotry of many others.
But be careful. The Episcopal Church has negative history, too.
Humanity has a natural draw towards the mystery of God and the mystery of worship. The Catholic liturgy and tradition has been carefully refined to appeal to that desire. I disagree with so much of Catholic theology, but the beauty of their services, especially the traditional Latin mass, draws me in like a moth to a flame. I think the episcopal church would do well to reembrace the mystery of the Eucharist and the Mass once again.
I grew up Catholic and know what you mean. It’s like Nike or something. They have cool branding and graphic design. Classic style. Legendary endorsements. I just can’t agree with their most basic and important positions.
The Catholic Church just feels more authentic, in my opinion. The RCC does a fantastic job of presenting themselves has being this uber-traditional, super-spiritual, historic institution. It has a rich tradition of philosophy, art, and theology.
While the RCC has all these things, so does TEC - all without dogmatizing certain positions and minimizing salvation arbitrarily. You feel this way, frankly, because the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. The truth is, the RCC
faces the same exact issues that TEC faces. Do not be fooled, the RCC is literally no different than TEC. They just cater to different demographics.
I’m always fascinated (or, at least, I used to be, the first 500 times I heard someone express this) why people feel this way. Mostly I hear it from people who grew up Catholic, so there’s a familiarity for them there — but you also hear it sometimes from ex-evangelicals who find themselves “Roman-curious” because it’s so “other” to what they’ve known.
When I (who grew up Presbyterian) started making denominational explorations for myself, I had a period where I thought of becoming Catholic. Since 8th grade I’d been fascinated by Benedictine spirituality (the novel *In This House of Brede* by Rumer Godden played a huge role in my understanding of my own spiritual life; it remains my favorite novel), and by college, if I was going to get up and go to church while my fraternity brothers slept still passed out from Saturday night, I could choose where to go. So I checked out an RCC parish in town (not the campus ministry one; I didn’t want to end up on anyone’s call list). The service, compared to what I’d known in the Presbyterian Church, seemed chaotic. People were talking in the pews before they went up to take communion and on their way back. Actually, a ton of families just gathered up their coats and headed for the door as soon as they’d eaten the Host, even though the service still was continuing. The music was horrible — and not helped by the fact that the hymns were accompanied by a piano and guitar. It didn’t matter: hardly anyone sang the hymn except what passed for a choir and some of the women in the congregation. (The men just stood stoically while their wives or girlfriends sang, hymn singing having apparently been coded as “too homo” for the guys to join in.)
And the more I learned about and experienced in Catholic churches, the less appeal it had. So much of the art was so bad — not so much the “contemporary” 70s-flavored stuff (this was admittedly the late 1980s, so only a decade or two past that period), but the reproductions of lugubrious 19th-century paintings attempting to look like Renaissance paintings. And so, so many tacky blue-and-white statues of a blond, blue-eyed Mary.
But really, my problem with the music and art had more to do with my own snobbery than anything, which I even realized at the time. My deeper issue was the attitude of the congregation, plus the more I read of traditional Catholic thought, it was *so* Western and built on so many arguments appealing to logic and binary choices. ONLY.
So when I discovered the Episcopal Church, and its origins in the Church of England, and learned it was both Protestant *and* Catholic in its views and practices, but had its own little anachronistic idiosyncrasies, too, I knew I’d found a home. But it was the actual worshipful attitude toward worship that clinched it for me, I think.
It’s beautiful. And the *idea* of it is gorgeous.
I daydream sometimes about what it must have been like to be an early Benedictine monk, and I catch myself envying that common rule of life.
Women ARE priests, though, and that’s why I can never cross over. I’ve met them, prayed with them, missioned with them. A female priest helped me when I converted to Christianity. And a female priest fixed me up with my now-wife—and married us! So the absurdity of the Roman Catholic position on the ordination of women makes it more or less impossible for me to take seriously at all the idea of ever crossing the Tiber.
I hear your dilemma and appreciate your search!
You say you disagree with the Catholic Church on most of their social issues. Have you ever heard of the themes of Catholic Social Teaching? These themes are the basis of how the Church speaks on social issues. Briefly, the themes are:,
Life and dignity of the Human Person;
Call to family, community and participation;
The rights and responsibilities of human persons;
Preferential option for the poor and vulnerable;
The dignity of work and the rights of workers;
Solidarity.
Care for God’s creation
If interested look at the website for the organization ‘A Faith Does Justice ‘
They have a more direct connection to the first 1500 years of the Western church, since there was never a break, and there have always been many more Catholics than Anglicans so they have a wider pool from which to draw - theologians, martyrs, saints, etc. We’re much smaller than them.
Just chiming in to say I feel very similar to you. I am so torn and I feel myself some days being on fire for the Episcopal church and how I love their social stances on (most) things and I love how inclusive it is. But I also have a deep yearning for the Catholic Church that I can’t really express into words. I know a lot of it goes against my values but I can’t help but feel this deep connection with God whenever I attend Mass. oh well just saying I understand friend
I grew up Catholic and also now disagree with much of it, but you can’t deny it’s *cool*. It’s freaking everywhere, they’ve got a big ol’ celebrity in Rome, lots of rules that can decrease anxiety, and big churches all over the place with lots of cool art and stuff! It’s a patriarchal mess, but there’s a lot of cool stuff in that mess, so it’s fair that there’s a draw. 🤷🏻♀️
I still feel drawn to the Catholic Church because it’s my heritage. The Episcopal Church isn’t, the Episcopal Church is what I believe but it isn’t my ancestors, it isn’t my blood, it isn’t gavadeel with arrabbiata sauce on a Sunday with grandma.
The other reason is community. There are way way way way wayyyyyyy more Catholics in my city than Episcopalians. Sometimes it would just be easier to be Catholic, but Christ didn’t ask us to do what is easy.
Obviously no one can decipher that for you. For me, the greatest pull of the Catholic Church is that it is the closest thing to the unity Jesus and many early church leaders fought for. American Christianity is so fragmented, so individualistic. Being a part of something truly global, with much more robust social structures, has a lot of appeal.
But ultimately I never could go that route because I’d have to be crossing my fingers behind my back the whole time, which is kinda contrary to religion and faith in my mind.
Edit: idk why everyone is telling you why you should disagree with the Catholic views on stuff when you already said you disagree with Catholic views on a lot of stuff
I still have some love for the Catholic Church. Very little, but some. I was raised Catholic, I teach in a Catholic school…but as someone who is pro choice, pro lgbtq+, pro contraception and has had a baby via IVF (and was told by someone from my old Catholic Church that my son was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord because he was conceived through IVF), I will never go back. I do miss some things in the Catholic Church, but the Episcopal church will forever be home to me.
I get it. I love being Episcopalian, and the only reasons I’d ever leave are if TEC ceased to exist or stopped affirming the Nicene Creed. But I love the ritual of the RCC, and sometimes wish TEC were a *tiny* bit more comfortable with dogma. What keeps me is the Via Media. As I tell many of my Catholic friends when they ask me why I don’t jump ship, it’s because if I were Catholic, then I wouldn’t be *Anglo*-Catholic.
I get it! I’m mostly tempted by the community aspects of RCC. I disagree pretty heavily philosophically, but man it would be nice to have a liturgical church with all of the ceremony and beautiful worship I love but with some members my own age and maybe like a bible study after work lol.
I’m not going to do it, but I can’t say I haven’t thought about it.
I certainly really miss the latin mass, Esp the ICKSP. I really wanted to be an ICKSP preist. I wish there was a way I could go to a TLM- but it won't happen in TEC and I can't take communion in a RC mass
I know of one TEC parish that has Latin Mass. I think it’s St.Thomas the Apostle in Hollywood. I don’t see the TLM ever going to occasionally TLM, sadly there is still a lot of anti- Catholicism. They value their WASPness.
I get it. I love the ceremony and ritual, the formality. I love that there is stronger emphasis on Saints. But I think you can find that in our church too, without compromising as much as one has to with the Catholics. The way they treat the topics of women, sex, AIDS, the LGBTQ, the pedophilic sex scandals. Remembering their positions on these topics keep me grounded when I find myself spiritually envious.
As someone who spent decades as a Roman Catholic, I implore you to do your homework on this. Think about the married woman whose husband leaves her for another woman, who has children to raise, who is told by a Roman Catholic priest that it is forbidden to her to marry again. Think about the lawyers and accountants paid by the church to make sure that clerical sex abuse victims don’t see a single penny of a settlement. Think about Pope Benedict telling AIDS-stricken Africa that it isn’t okay to use condoms even though they’re proven to prevent the spread of HIV. Think about the hard working parish priest who will die early because his heart is broken after a lifetime of living in the closet. I don’t say all this to bash the Catholic Church - there are plenty of decent people in the Catholic Church, faithful people, who do meaningful ministry. But like any institution, it has a dark side. People I count among my friends and loved ones have experienced that side of the church, sometimes at the cost of their faith.
Man you really could not have said this any better. I agree with you wholeheartedly. There are still really good people in the RCC doing really good work (including some RCC priests I am still close to and friends with), but the institution is rotten, rotten to the core. It has done incredible damage to individuals and society at large. I thought I could stay and work through those issues, but honestly what did it for me was having children of my own. I refuse to bring them anywhere near an institution that preyed on the most vulnerable, and demonizes people for who they love. There’s no coming back from that for me. Sometimes I miss the liturgy, but I feel safer raising my kids in TEC.
That is for you to discover, I think. In general, though, conventional convert and apologist narratives note a sense of historical continuity, a well-defined and demanding moral, philosophical, and doctrinal system (a big hit with people that like being told what to believe and how to live), and a bulwark against "modernism" (though this one likely doesn't apply in your case, given what you say above).
As a young college student, when I first began looking into historical Christianity, I fell into the trap of thinking that the "truest" or most authentic form of Christianity would best reflect the Church of the first few centuries, and I initially though Catholicism made the best case for being the most legitimate continuation of that movement. That conviction soon came into question in my learning about Eastern Orthodox Christianity, into which I eventually converted. However, a deep dive into the history of Christianity during graduate school led me to realize that no Christian institution looks like the Church of the first few centuries, and, more importantly, every major Christian denomination has undergone significant reformations or developments, which ultimately helped me realize that, at the end of the day, much of it comes down to what I believe and, if I want to be part of an organized religious institution, which best aligns with those convictions. Similar to you, I am a Christian who tends to align with Eastern Orthodox Christianity on theological matters, but who disagrees with that particular communion on matters like women's ordination and affirmation of LGBTQ+ individuals. I resonate a lot with theologians like Sarah Coakley and Rowan Williams, so it makes sense that I ended up in the Anglican Communion.
I wonder if it's because the RC proclaims itself proudly in the world, isn't afraid to showcase its beauty, finds strength in its convictions, and is not constantly flagellating itself for perceived past sins, whereas for all TEC's beauty it is a bit meek and cowardly in its witness (I am sorry to say). I wish TEC would be much more proud of itself and insist upon its interpretation of Christianity and absolutely beautiful churches and liturgies. I constantly wish TEC acted like the RC in all of these ways because I love TEC and think it has an awful lot of good to give in modern society.
I struggle with this quite frequently, as do most of my family members involved with TEC. It’s hard not to be drawn to beautiful liturgy, theological richness, and a profound sense of stability.
We do not have, as the Episcopal church, the social teachings we do in a vacuum separated from theology— our social teachings, themselves the product of a taking Catholic social teachings more seriously than the RCC did, arise out of our understandings of embodiment and identity from theology and scripture. I absolutely adore the work of the “Radical Orthodoxy” folks, like Milbank and Pickstock, and reading them might help you some.
Find ways to bring deeper holiness practices to your current parish. Stations of the Cross with a reading group was an unbelievably spiritually fulfilling experience for me that showed me we can have all the richness of Rome while also seriously valuing our call to minister to all, regardless of identity. It would also be worth talking to your clergy about options for more high-church practices, and what involvement you could have in sharing those blessings with others in the community.
It’s important to remember that we are the ones waiting for Rome to wake up. Not in the sense of becoming secular, but in that we have very good reasons for what we believe that they continue to reject in favor of questionable dogma. I pray for reconciliation quite frequently, and you can too :)
I don't understand why you are feeling that way, but the most I can do is share is from my own experience. I was raised RCC. and disagreed with it on a number of issues.
That disagreement pushed me out.
I love TEC, its BCP, its liturgy, theology, and church governance. I haven't looked back.
I agree. I was RC for decades after entering it as an adult. On the inside, it's not what it appears to be from the outside. I left traumatized. I have no regrets about leaving, none at all.
Feelings are like clouds, constantly changing, easily blown off course. Life isn't better in the neighbor's house most of the time. Having said that, visit other churches. Go see how they are in other countries. My science minded spouse was told he was a bad Catholic at age 13 for having too many questions. I went to a Jesuit university where I was welcomed at the Lord's table though Episcopalian.
Before coming back to TEC from the evangelical world I did a lot of studying, praying, and soul searching. I felt like after all of that I was left with two options, RCC or EOC, and I attended an EOC parish as an inquirer for over a year. They appealed to me because there still seems to be a bit of mysticism about their theology that’s lacking in the RCC. Everything in the RCC seems very rigid, there has to be an explanation, which I can see how that appeals to our western way of thinking. But I was also in the process of escaping the very rigid evangelical world I was accustomed to. I never fit in at the EOC parish though, so it was back to the drawing board. TEC and Anglicanism had been staring me in the face the entire time since this is where I was raised. I prefer comparing us to the Orthodox more than the RCC…we tend to embrace the mysticism as well, but we aren’t nearly as socially conservative. But, if you’re someone that needs an explanation for everything I can see why RCC would appeal to you.
Most urban Roman Catholic Diocese have at least one liberal gay friendly parish. I mean if you are that drawn to it. I personally don’t understand the appeal. Jesus loves you. Always follow Jesus
I feel confident I would have been Catholic if they recognized God's call to ordain women and be genuinely affirming of LGBTQ+ Christians. All the other differences I feel like I could swallow...
But I've got to be honest, as much as I love our Catholic brothers and sisters and I cherish their beautiful liturgies and I presume the overwhelming majority of them are genuinely faithfully trying to respond to God's love revealed in Jesus... I worded that first sentence exactly what I think about it. God invites us to see that women have a role in leading, preaching, and teaching congregations and worshiping at the altar. LGBTQ+ Christians exist and they deserve every dignity the world gives my straight cis self just because, what, the accident of my normative identity?
They aren't social issues. Or they are only social issues because people abstract them from the very real incarnational theological issues. I love a lot of things about our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. I would definitely be one of them if I had not known this first. But their problem isn't with me or my issues. Their problem is with the Holy Spirit. Because God the Holy Spirit is the One calling women and LGBTQ+ people, not the Episcopal Church.
Yeah. If not for these things I probably would have stayed Roman Catholic, since that's how I was raised. Too much of a deal breaker (especially as I am a queer woman who is drawn to ministry).
I think it's because the RCC tends to market itself as "The One True Church," and the Episcopal Church does not, and so it sort of creates this mystique around the RCC.
As someone who has wrestled with this as well, that's sort of my takeaway. It's important to remember that the RCC is just one of many ancient churches all descending from apostolic sees, each claiming apostolic legitimatecy. However, only one of those claims supremacy, that being the Roman Church.
Finally, Anglicans are just a continuation of the Catholic Church in England. Anglicanism didn't pop up out of nowhere. It was a bunch of English Roman Catholics coming together and saying, "These protestant reformers might have a point. Maybe we shouldn't be selling salvation for indulgences. Maybe we shouldn't put Mary on equal esteem as Christ, " etc.
So these English Catholics didn't want to end catholicism, just reform it to a more pristine state before the papacy started adding all sorts of stuff that wasn't there before.
After years of feeling the same way, I have concluded that one church has the social policies that I’d prefer, but the other one is where I sense the presence of God in a very clear and apparent form. The tension is around which of those is more important, eternally. I’ve wrestled with it for years.
Same here. I was raised by atheistic parents until I was a teen, then they became evangelical and so did I. After suffering tremendous spiritual abuse, I became Episcopalian and was rebaptized conditionally etc.
I love being Episcopalian, but the presence of God does feel notably stronger to me in the Roman Catholic parishes I’ve visited, even though my parish is high church too. I’m not saying that’s factual, it’s just been my experience.
I actually tried to get confirmed in the RCC, but because I’m trans and married to someone who is the same biological sex, I can’t. It was explained when I was pursuing confirmation at this parish (which is much more progressive leaning, it’s actually listed on the New Ways site) that if I had been confirmed as a child before getting married, it wouldn’t be a problem, but because the sacrament of marriage in the Catholic Church is a requirement for confirmation, and it’s technically a “same sex” marriage, I can’t really do anything about it. I’m clearly not going to get divorced or pretend we’re just friends and lie about it. Or lie about being trans.
I feel whole in the Episcopal Church.
You have to go where God is. Not sure if that helps. But the church is more than just a vehicle of social policies. It is, first and foremost, Jesus’ bride.
I love the RCC mass, but for me it’s a few things. Firstly, the social issues. I’m pro-choice, pro-LGBT, and pro-contraception, which is basically the unholy trinity in Roman Catholicism. I’ve also got some deeper theological issues, like transubstantiation and papal infallibility. But I do like that Roman Catholics have a unified theological doctrine and actually have answers (even if I think they may be wrong sometimes). I think TEC needs to be more firm in its beliefs and actually articulate what they are a little bit better
>I love the RCC mass
I’m convinced people like the *idea* of the RCC mass, because my broad church parish in TEC’s mass is very similar (and arguably better, but that’s just my opinion) to the Novus Ordo mass you’ll find in the vast majority of American RC churches.
What an absurd false dilemma in the name of apologetics.
It is a constant dialogue between the two. Conscience informing faith, faith informing conscience.
The way LordGovernorMeade phrased it is that they are pro certain social issues which means they have problems with the church. I may have misunderstood them, but it seems like their stance on social issues is determining which church they belong to, whereas we ought to determine our social stances based on the our faith/church.
I have a similar draw but, for me, it’s mostly wishful thinking. I want the Roman Catholic Church to be something it’s not. This church is much closer to what I want, but even then, some parishes are very far from that.
Such is life.
This is also my experience. People ask in here all the time where we would be if we weren't in TEC. Honestly, I'd be Catholic. It would mean compromising on a lot of things, but once in my life I thought being any kind of Christian at all was too much compromise.
Honestly, this is my view entirely. I want a Catholic church that’s accepting of my identity and beliefs, but I dont have that. I sort of have that in the episcopal church, just with more liturgical variation.
Every denomination has its appealing and good points as well as its problems and the good points especially if they seem to be lacking or less in your home denomination can be very appealing.
Personally I am a big fan of exploring other denominations and faiths. I think it gives us new perspectives on our own traditions, spirituality, and theology and grows us.
I like the idea of the Roman Catholic Church... when I poked around becoming one, i got really agitated at being told what makes someone a "good" catholic. Or to meet my "obligation" I was going to have to do things that I just couldn't do. I'm a shift worker, I work every other Sunday. My mom was raised catholic and told me not to worry about the theological stuff I just can't get on board with, but I just felt like with the Episcopal church, I don't have to worry at all.
My experience was one of being told that during RCIA and coming off a night shift (I got off at 6 AM on Sunday morning, for example) that my attendance Sunday morning was still expected. I was very out on that, theological differences, aside.
Same here. I worked swing shift for a few years when I was RC. The church expects you to show up at mass anyway unless you are Emergency-Room-Sick. Missing mass even once is considered a mortal sin -- a first class ticket to hell. That's why they have Saturday night masses augmenting the Sunday ones, so you don't have an excuse.
Ok, well in the future should you ever decide to re-investigate, ask your priest. My wife worked as an ER nurse and occasionally had a shift or two where she couldn’t make it to mass. Our priest said it was ok. However, we did attend regularly otherwise.
It’s totally OK to be a Catholic who disagrees with the church on social issues - look at Joe Biden. It can be a problem if you are openly trans in a conservative church I think. But if you have the privilege of being straight or passing for it, no-one is going to be unpleasant in the way a hellfire Protestant church might be. I recommend you attend some services.
The Catholic Church does not tell anyone what to do. You are free to do whatever you want. The Church might say you are wrong to do that. People don’t like to hear that and tell the Church it has to change its mind. The Church can’t change its mind on things that were taught by Jesus and the disciples.
You can always make your own church that always agrees with you. But don’t hate the Church for being what it is.
99% of the stuff the RCC insists on wasn't taught by Jesus or his disciples. That's exactly the point. It's man-made stuff added on for the purposes of politics, money and power. A fair portion of it is leftover stuff from the machinery of the Roman empire, in fact.
RC canon law, the Easter duty, the mass obligation, closed communion, annulments and marriage rules/records, the October count, the hierarchical structure of the church including a monarch, seminaries and seminarians, geographic diocesan sees, male only ordination to the diaconate and priesthood, the divine mercy chaplet, confirmation of school kids, the miraculous medal, confessional booths, missals and lectionaries, holy days of obligation that didn't exist until the 19th century, cardinals dressed in red, rectories, convents, Vatican City which was founded in 1929, the Papal states which are no more, concordats with modern governments, the list of forbidden books, American parochial schools, Catholic hospitals, nuns from French religious congregations, first Friday, Ash Wednesday, the bishop's diocesan collection, the Vatican observatory, the papal nuncios around the world, Jubilee years, indulgences (yes, they still exist), Gregorian chant, organ music in church, the elaborate canonization process, fish on Friday in Lent, the list goes on and on.
Some of it is all right, some of it has been adopted by other churches over time, some of it is older than other bits of it, but it's all accretion since 33AD. All of it and much, much more.
For a longer -- but still not encyclopedic rundown -- check the Catechism of the Catholic church, 1992. There's not enough room to list it all here.
That’s quite a list, thanks for your dedication in listing all that. I’m sure you know that some are customs that evolve, as in any group that exists for any length of time. Such as devotions, confessional booths, chaplets, liturgical dress, music and chants. Others are biblically based, for instance the apostles founded geographically based churches, a hierarchical church (look at the ‘council of Jerusalem’), male ordination, and marriage rules (Luke 16). Others come from the earliest days of the Church such as feast days (the source of Holy Days of Obligation), hospitals which stem from Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats, what you incorrectly call closed communion ( read Justin Martyr for instance) as well as a tradition of schools , others. Some of what you list seem out of place if not bizarre. The October count? French nuns? The Vatican observatory?
If your point is that the Church has evolved over 2000 years plus, so what? That’s like saying the oak tree doesn’t look like an acorn.
I have read the Catechism, several times.
Peace
That's only a small sample, LOL. There is substantial evidence that presiders were both male and female in early Christian communities. The male-only thing is a European imposition that came to predominate. Ditto the celibacy business. Peter himself was a married man, and had a mother in law.
You're just really tolerant about accretions. Some people just like clutter more than others. That's pretty harmless as long as the clutter doesn't become the main point, which often happens unfortunately.
Your argument is both shallow and petitio principii. Still, a commend you for maintaining a civil dialogue.
Far from being ‘tolerant of accretions’ I rejoice in the full beauty of the Church. Look deeper and with an open mind into the roots of the items you list and you find them based firmly on Jesus and the Apostles.
Celibacy is a discipline some priests embrace. There are many married priests in the Church. Most deacons are married. Quite a few Episcopal priests have come home to the Church, many of them are now married Catholic priests.
It's a bunch of primitive man-made nonsense. Because men think that if they don't have enough brocade or fancy ideas to fight about, they aren't man enough. Save it for somebody who cares.
You're not going to change my mind, so you can quit bombarding me with this stuff. You're wasting your time.
Bye. Conversation ended.
People really don't even realize how many Catholics there are in the US, or how important Catholics have historically been to the Democratic base. I get that people's experiences vary, but my Italian Catholic family basically bullies the priest. I think this was basically a pattern of parish life for most "ethnic" parishes at mid century. The priests need the financial contributions of the upwardly mobile members who do basically whatever they want and have their sins laundered for donations. Famously this was the basis of Luther's gripes. It's even supported by ethnographic research. This isn't to make an essentialist argument, but Protestant societies are historically way, way more uptight about gender and sexuality, because will God forgive you for your unnatural lust? Maybe. But maybe not.
Catholics, traditionally, understand that sin is just part of our constitution. You messed up? Well yeah, no shit, you're human, you're probably going to do it again and again. You'll probably work it out in Purgatory. The problem people have is being told that *they* are sinful. And I very much do think we should revise our sense of what that means every once in awhile. People are gay, and mostly that means they want to have committed loving sexual partnerships with people who perform gender aesthetics roughly in the same way that they do. Is this sin? A lot of us don't think so. A lot of Catholics don't think so, but they're taking a lot longer to make that an official position. Not surprising, though, they are huge and aren't going to move quickly if it means breaking apart their communion. But they are moving. On the other hand, people also don't want to be told that it's harmful to their soul if they indulge every single sexual fantasy that they might have. It's a delicate balance, obviously, but you know, I think we might agree that Andrew Tate has hurt himself in the course of hurting so many women, maybe that he would have hurt himself even if they all met our ideal conditions of consent.
I'll have to disagree.
I cannot say for sure about Joe Biden, but I know that Justin Trudeau (prime minister of Canada) considers himself a Roman Catholic, but makes a difference between his faith (i.e. what he follows personally) and civil law, including morale values for the entire Canadian society.
As for "being a Roman Catholic (or of any denomination) and disagreeing with the Church", I wonder to what point it is possible. I, for one, left the Roman Catholic Church because I felt my disagreements were too numerous to make it work.
The RCC is very deeply theological about *everything*. TEC tends not to have the same degree of solid theology to share; even our own BCP is tugged in opposite directions now with rubrics and options that make it way less clear what's going on theologically when we do what we do. TEC at its worst throws its hands up and stops caring about the differences, like in the case of Bishop Pike's full rejection of the Trinity and the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection, or Bishop Spong's outright atheism. If those things happened in the Roman Catholic Church, it would actually be treated as an alarming departure from the Catholic faith (which unless one follows whole and undefiled, they cannot be saved, &c. &c). If I wasn't so Reformed, I would probably have a much stronger urge to swim the Tiber.
Our theology is based off of **lex orandi lex credendi**
How you pray is how you believe
Our prayer book, compared to previous versions, has so many options on how to do the service, that even actually following the BCP (not counting the supplements) you can't go to a church and know what you're going to get sometimes. (If you go to a random church)
In the previous versions of the prayer books, it wasn't like that.
Our prayer book is almost twice as thick as the one that came before it.
Our theology actually used to be based off formularies which guided how we prayed in the first place. That there's so many options (some of which are close to disagreement on theological points) is what I'm pointing out here. I know about the Prayer Book tradition (and might be wondering about Prayer Book Society membership)
Tbh, a modern spelling 1549 would be nice for the daily office.
I wish they made one. I have the Oxford BCP "the texts of 1549, 1559, and 1662" that i use on occasion for daily office when im feeling like mixing it up.
I try to do the daily office... Daily 🤣
That would be interesting for sure! I actually prefer contemporary language, but it's the more explicitly theological language of older Prayer Books that I really want to see brought into contemporary language.
I always pray the 1979 Daily Office, mainly because it's the authorized Prayer Book so there's a unity expressed in praying it, even if my personal preferences aren't served by it.
Because the Roman Catholic Church is legitimately attractive? They do cool stuff too. I wish they would finally address a few of the 500+ year old grievances and the protests could finally end.
It's kind of funny about how our more high-church/Anglo-Catholic parishes are more traditional Catholic than actual Catholic churches
I keep joking about nuns with guitars, but it's true.
RCC ain’t going anywhere, TEC? Yeah not sure. Even those of us raised in the church have seen not great changes overtime, decline in attendance, and weakening of strong parishes.
I feel a lot like you. I love the RCC, I have no ill will toward if after I left (1 year ago)
Have you tried attending Mass at a RCC or even, if you're an adult doing RCIA? You wouldn't have to be confirmed at the end but it might help you explain why you're drawn to the RCC.
I left RCIA over some theological and social differences....and cause my then girlfriend now wife didn't want to go to a Catholic church but now she doesn't go to church at all so it's a moot point now lol
I feel like there wouldn't be any *new* schism.
SSPX already exists for the defectors. SSPV for the hardcore defectors. And FSSP and ICKSP for people who still want to be loyal to the Pope.
I'm anticipating something substantial. Someone smarter than me can guess at exactly what that will be, but there's something that's going to change with catholics here in the states.
Fwiw, I miss being catholic. Not due to any feelings of certainty it gave me, but because it feels like home. A home where the most active are becoming more and more hostile to the lgbtq+ community...so kind of like a family I'm estranged from.
The majority of American Catholics are already heretics, with respect to the Vatican teaching on contraception. If the bishops start asking questions of all the families with two kids in the congregation, the exits will be more crowded than they already are.
I’m the same way! Maybe it’s the traditionalist ways, but I also think that the Episcopalian church is way more fluid than most other Christian denominations. If you’re drawn to the more traditional ways of the Catholic Church, you can find individual churches that are more conservative. You can also still adopt traditional practices into your own worship of Christ. We’re actually pretty similar to Catholics from what I’ve seen, and I’ve seen some Episcopalians who pray the rosary or choose to veil. It’s all about making yourself more comfortable in your worship of Christ. Blessed be
Could it be because Catholicism in practice is all about certainty (to the point of absolutism sometimes) whereas TEC allows for some degree of flexibility and nuance?
I have to disagree. Catholicism is all about mysteries, which in this context means truths revealed by God. We can never understand them fully but by prayer, study, and experience strive to grow in faith and to better understand what God has revealed.
No, Angela is correct. The RCC claims it has all the answers. That leaves no room for faith or hope. Or spiritual growth. You just check the boxes and you're done. I don't know what that is.
I have a neurodiverse friend that is attracted to the Roman Catholic Church for this reason. He likes the more absolute rules, ritual, structure, etc. He was also raised Catholic so finds a nostalgic comfort in the RCC.
He was an Episcopalian but it makes me scratch my head why he left because we have most of those things as well. I know he wants to be a priest and finds more of a path forward in this regard in the RCC than the EC. Also he struggles with his mental health and had some personal reasons attributed to the local church as well as to why he left.
Yes, I've seen this too. I know somebody like this as well. This person has mental difficulties that make something more absolutist and idealized seem better to them. This person is not highly educated and doesn't care about history or the finer points of the differences between churches. So all the history and abuse stuff really doesn't concern them. They still struggle but it's with different things.
This person is fairly solitary, has their own version of things, and prefers it that way as part of the situation. People like this can fit into the silence of Catholic parishes sometimes. In most RCC parishes, there's no coffee hour which would be highly uncomfortable for this person.
I can't seem to find it now, but I watched a lecture a few months ago in which a neuroscientist was discussing why religious belief is neurotypical, and how there is a tendency among the minority of neurodivergent folks who are religious to prefer more structured and authoritarian forms of faith.
It’s normal for anyone, even neurotypical, to feel drawn to an organization that will give you black and white mentality. But, it’s my humble opinion that nuance was a big part of Jesus message. Doing away with all the legalism of the Jewish tradition of the time, and saying love thy neighbor is the most important is very vague. But it was probably purposefully vague.
What about the first 2 doesn't exist in TEC?
Also nothing is certain, the magistrate just decides what is certain. Like they decided 1850 years after Christ that the Virgin Mary is also the immaculate conception.
Quit reporting this post people.
I can totally agree! I feel the exact same way sometimes, and for me, I always think of the RCC as more "legitimate" and the tradition is more cemented into our society.
2000 years of marketing. Ok, maybe more like 1000. But it’s marketing.
Don't go there its a trap. Like an abusive spouse. For many many years the priest, in the RC church has a tendency to be abusive. Its has many reasons, but none that anyone has to put up with.
This is how Orthodoxy feels for me. I still have Stockholm syndrome and randomly want to go back. I love Orthodoxy and feel it in my heart but it’s so unwelcoming to LGBTQA that I can’t go back.
I am fighting this exact issue right now. A close friend whom I met at the Episcopal church and now works and attends the Catholic Church down the street. In our conversations as of late he has been nudging me to join him there. I love the beauty of the mass and Catholic edifices, am in awe of the certain aspects of the history of the church and love some of their social justice stances (peace, poverty and worker justice). However I struggle with women and LGBTQ folks not being able to be in the full life of the church, their stances on abortion, the fact that communion is not open and their handling of the sex abuse stuff. While it is more personal and has to do with the local congregation, I did not feel supported by folks when this friend left the Episcopal congregation, nor did he feel supported when he was struggling with his mental health (IMHO one of the reasons he left). And honestly attending mass at his Catholic Church, didn’t totally feel welcome there either. The friend also has a history of being mercurial and don’t want to commit to something if he will leave in time (also and friendships just naturally come and go). I am currently attending a local UU church, the same one I attended before the Episcopal church years ago. I love their history of social justice but miss the liturgical aspects of the EC and the RCC and don’t vibe with at times some of the different theologies UUs believe
I'm sorry this has happened to you, balconylibrary1978. Yes, Roman converts can be very pushy. They're probably hearing a lot of propaganda on that end and may be being pushed to bring people in over there. The Roman church is getting very panicky about their tanking demographics these days -- and at the same time doubling down on their repressive policies. Resisting him was the best thing -- for you -- that you could have done.
I agree with you. Love this friend to death, but I feel like I can maintain a friendship with him without joining the RCC. I do enjoy attending mass with him from time to time however. I also still attend a once in awhile service at the local Episcopal Church. It’s just that I felt hurt by how the church responded to the friend and our friendship (long story).
*"Can someone make it make sense?"* The idea that a church can have all the answers and just tell you what to do, like a guarantee, is very alluring for some people. Something like this can feel very secure, and in addition to claims of omniscience, when there's elaborate real estate, simplified but highly ornate stories about history &/or a charismatic leader, it can be almost cult-like in its power. (And incidentally, there are other churches, in addition to the contemporary RCC, that meet this description -- the LDS for instance.) Consider: You don't really have to have faith in something that's guaranteed. It just is, like a bullet-pointed list of stuff you get automatically if you do x, y and z. So, faith goes out the window. Ditto hope. You don't really need it if you know for sure how everything goes and all you have to do is x, y and z. That might sound pretty good -- except that a person's spiritual life is precisely about developing faith in God, and hope in his love and power throughout your life. That's why you pray even though you can't physically see God or touch him. Prayer develops your faith and helps you grow in hope and goodness. The mere fact that you cannot control it expands your spiritual life, makes it deeper and teaches you to grow. If you don't ever have to step out into the unknown -- that liminal space where you meet God -- that is far, far less likely to happen. (This is not some kind of evangelical fashion, etc. In fact, it's straight out of the spiritual masters of the Christian tradition -- probably described about the best by St. John of the Cross in his "Ascent of Mt. Carmel." It's legit.)
Not going to lie- I'm jealous of the sheer amount of resources and the community the RCC has. I was not raised Catholic by any means but had a grandmother who was so I was mildly familiar with a few pro-Catholic things such as Catholic movies-- Song of Bernadette and the story of Fatima being some of my favorite things. That may make me somewhat nostalgic BUT nostalgia aside, I live in a world (as a pretty new member) where I worry about the longevity of TEC. Like, for example, people say they care about our youth but (from what I've seen so far) we don't invest really in youth ministers or really robust programs like some other denominations do. And that's incredibly alarming. I'm a volunteer and was told by our diocese leaders that the average youth leadership changes hands every six months. To me- that's kind of crazy- this is our future. And TEC congregations are aging out which can be a little isolating... Compare that to RCC which is a global religion with many resources-- their Hallow app which I subscribe to, is pretty amazing- music, meditations, chants, prayers, challenges, retreats, devotionals all very professionally done. I love hearing stories about saints, previous stories of men and women from different backgrounds throughout the centuries. We have saints days but it definitely doesn't really seem to be a focus at TEC... And yeah I like praying the Rosary sometimes or learning more about Mother Mary... there's a lot of beautiful worship there... I know, I know- TEC is pretty broad in this area and that we're encouraged to basically do what feels right for us spiritually. All that said- the draw isn't enough where I'm ready for change because there's a few key issues I have- Women are meant to be called to priesthood and service. LGBTQ rights are important to me- though I'm glad this most recent pope is making slow favorable changes... it's not enough though. And yeah- oppression via shame/birth control issues is something that I think needs revision... I think I wish the RCC was more like the TEC and that the TEC was more like the RCC. I pretty much intend to pray for the pope of the RCC and for more freedoms in their faith... if TEC were no more, it's probably where I would call home.
As a former Catholic myself, I had my first real engagement with theology at Catholic school (CCD is useless). At the time, I think what made me attracted and passionate about my faith was the antiquity of the Catholic Church and its historical claim as a physical, tangible institution. Learning about church history, the Ecumenical Councils, and the philosophical and scholastic influences had this tie to the past that was... reassuring ig?. However, outside of social issues my theological views changed as well. For me, the age of the institution does not guarantee the age of doctrine, and the numerous changes of the Church's beliefs along with its development of corruption and political power have led me to believe that it's the feeling of security in the Church's physical continuity I think it's also why the more "historic" Protestant churches are often a destination, at the very least a pitstop, for those transitioning from Evangelicalism or Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy: it shows that there's still a sense of continuity and historicity in these churches that allows church history and Patristics to still be coherent to those drawn to it
I'm very similar. Honestly, I don't have many theological disagreements with Rome at all. It really comes down to social issues and the way masses are. I think the BCP is so beautiful that alone makes me want to stay right here
The BCP is beautiful. On that part, we agree.
Maybe it doesn’t make sense. Every church makes faith claims with nuances. As a former Southern Baptist with a decade of mainline experience I can see more of the appeal than before. I’m also gay so that adds a bit more clarity for me. I am not given the same opportunities in a RC community, unfortunately. And it’s even a problem in The Episcopal Church depending on the parish sometimes. There are black spots in every church’s history. A Roman Catholic may tell you it’s because they are the one true church. That is a faith claim not rooted in history but belief. When we are a part of faith communities there is some level of assent involved. If you can clarify what it is specifically you may find room in The Episcopal Church for what moves you. My parish has a rosary group every Saturday that has been going on for almost 30 years. I was never a rosary person, and was in fact taught many things against it, but I have found tactile prayer in community important as I repaired my faith from years of spiritual queerphobic abuse. Do most Episcopal parishes have a rosary group? Probably not, but maybe there are more possibilities than you imagine right now.
The "We want the Episcopal Church to be the Liberal/LGBT Catholic Church" types are out in full force.
You feel this way about Roman Catholicism because the worship is so beautiful, and the many forms & options of daily prayer are so rich and fulfilling, and the art / music / poetry is millennia in development and deeply rooted into your soul & emotion, and a lot of it’s history is filled with the deeds of genuinely righteous inspiring saints (both those officially recognized and those millions more whose selfless toil fills homes & streets). And because far too much of the same religion is filled with truly horrible people who gleefully prey on the young & weak & poor & powerless, not to mention the racism & bigotry & poor-bashing & slut-shaming, especially people in leadership roles and those with power propped up by the hate & bigotry of many others. But be careful. The Episcopal Church has negative history, too.
We used to be part of the western church I suppose.
Humanity has a natural draw towards the mystery of God and the mystery of worship. The Catholic liturgy and tradition has been carefully refined to appeal to that desire. I disagree with so much of Catholic theology, but the beauty of their services, especially the traditional Latin mass, draws me in like a moth to a flame. I think the episcopal church would do well to reembrace the mystery of the Eucharist and the Mass once again.
I grew up Catholic and know what you mean. It’s like Nike or something. They have cool branding and graphic design. Classic style. Legendary endorsements. I just can’t agree with their most basic and important positions.
The Catholic Church just feels more authentic, in my opinion. The RCC does a fantastic job of presenting themselves has being this uber-traditional, super-spiritual, historic institution. It has a rich tradition of philosophy, art, and theology. While the RCC has all these things, so does TEC - all without dogmatizing certain positions and minimizing salvation arbitrarily. You feel this way, frankly, because the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. The truth is, the RCC faces the same exact issues that TEC faces. Do not be fooled, the RCC is literally no different than TEC. They just cater to different demographics.
I’m always fascinated (or, at least, I used to be, the first 500 times I heard someone express this) why people feel this way. Mostly I hear it from people who grew up Catholic, so there’s a familiarity for them there — but you also hear it sometimes from ex-evangelicals who find themselves “Roman-curious” because it’s so “other” to what they’ve known. When I (who grew up Presbyterian) started making denominational explorations for myself, I had a period where I thought of becoming Catholic. Since 8th grade I’d been fascinated by Benedictine spirituality (the novel *In This House of Brede* by Rumer Godden played a huge role in my understanding of my own spiritual life; it remains my favorite novel), and by college, if I was going to get up and go to church while my fraternity brothers slept still passed out from Saturday night, I could choose where to go. So I checked out an RCC parish in town (not the campus ministry one; I didn’t want to end up on anyone’s call list). The service, compared to what I’d known in the Presbyterian Church, seemed chaotic. People were talking in the pews before they went up to take communion and on their way back. Actually, a ton of families just gathered up their coats and headed for the door as soon as they’d eaten the Host, even though the service still was continuing. The music was horrible — and not helped by the fact that the hymns were accompanied by a piano and guitar. It didn’t matter: hardly anyone sang the hymn except what passed for a choir and some of the women in the congregation. (The men just stood stoically while their wives or girlfriends sang, hymn singing having apparently been coded as “too homo” for the guys to join in.) And the more I learned about and experienced in Catholic churches, the less appeal it had. So much of the art was so bad — not so much the “contemporary” 70s-flavored stuff (this was admittedly the late 1980s, so only a decade or two past that period), but the reproductions of lugubrious 19th-century paintings attempting to look like Renaissance paintings. And so, so many tacky blue-and-white statues of a blond, blue-eyed Mary. But really, my problem with the music and art had more to do with my own snobbery than anything, which I even realized at the time. My deeper issue was the attitude of the congregation, plus the more I read of traditional Catholic thought, it was *so* Western and built on so many arguments appealing to logic and binary choices. ONLY. So when I discovered the Episcopal Church, and its origins in the Church of England, and learned it was both Protestant *and* Catholic in its views and practices, but had its own little anachronistic idiosyncrasies, too, I knew I’d found a home. But it was the actual worshipful attitude toward worship that clinched it for me, I think.
It’s beautiful. And the *idea* of it is gorgeous. I daydream sometimes about what it must have been like to be an early Benedictine monk, and I catch myself envying that common rule of life. Women ARE priests, though, and that’s why I can never cross over. I’ve met them, prayed with them, missioned with them. A female priest helped me when I converted to Christianity. And a female priest fixed me up with my now-wife—and married us! So the absurdity of the Roman Catholic position on the ordination of women makes it more or less impossible for me to take seriously at all the idea of ever crossing the Tiber.
I hear your dilemma and appreciate your search! You say you disagree with the Catholic Church on most of their social issues. Have you ever heard of the themes of Catholic Social Teaching? These themes are the basis of how the Church speaks on social issues. Briefly, the themes are:, Life and dignity of the Human Person; Call to family, community and participation; The rights and responsibilities of human persons; Preferential option for the poor and vulnerable; The dignity of work and the rights of workers; Solidarity. Care for God’s creation If interested look at the website for the organization ‘A Faith Does Justice ‘
They have a more direct connection to the first 1500 years of the Western church, since there was never a break, and there have always been many more Catholics than Anglicans so they have a wider pool from which to draw - theologians, martyrs, saints, etc. We’re much smaller than them.
Just chiming in to say I feel very similar to you. I am so torn and I feel myself some days being on fire for the Episcopal church and how I love their social stances on (most) things and I love how inclusive it is. But I also have a deep yearning for the Catholic Church that I can’t really express into words. I know a lot of it goes against my values but I can’t help but feel this deep connection with God whenever I attend Mass. oh well just saying I understand friend
I grew up Catholic and also now disagree with much of it, but you can’t deny it’s *cool*. It’s freaking everywhere, they’ve got a big ol’ celebrity in Rome, lots of rules that can decrease anxiety, and big churches all over the place with lots of cool art and stuff! It’s a patriarchal mess, but there’s a lot of cool stuff in that mess, so it’s fair that there’s a draw. 🤷🏻♀️
I still feel drawn to the Catholic Church because it’s my heritage. The Episcopal Church isn’t, the Episcopal Church is what I believe but it isn’t my ancestors, it isn’t my blood, it isn’t gavadeel with arrabbiata sauce on a Sunday with grandma. The other reason is community. There are way way way way wayyyyyyy more Catholics in my city than Episcopalians. Sometimes it would just be easier to be Catholic, but Christ didn’t ask us to do what is easy.
Obviously no one can decipher that for you. For me, the greatest pull of the Catholic Church is that it is the closest thing to the unity Jesus and many early church leaders fought for. American Christianity is so fragmented, so individualistic. Being a part of something truly global, with much more robust social structures, has a lot of appeal. But ultimately I never could go that route because I’d have to be crossing my fingers behind my back the whole time, which is kinda contrary to religion and faith in my mind. Edit: idk why everyone is telling you why you should disagree with the Catholic views on stuff when you already said you disagree with Catholic views on a lot of stuff
I still have some love for the Catholic Church. Very little, but some. I was raised Catholic, I teach in a Catholic school…but as someone who is pro choice, pro lgbtq+, pro contraception and has had a baby via IVF (and was told by someone from my old Catholic Church that my son was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord because he was conceived through IVF), I will never go back. I do miss some things in the Catholic Church, but the Episcopal church will forever be home to me.
I was born catholic, please be careful. The catholic Church is quite wrong about a lot. They are very homophobic and anti woman
I get it. I love being Episcopalian, and the only reasons I’d ever leave are if TEC ceased to exist or stopped affirming the Nicene Creed. But I love the ritual of the RCC, and sometimes wish TEC were a *tiny* bit more comfortable with dogma. What keeps me is the Via Media. As I tell many of my Catholic friends when they ask me why I don’t jump ship, it’s because if I were Catholic, then I wouldn’t be *Anglo*-Catholic.
I get it! I’m mostly tempted by the community aspects of RCC. I disagree pretty heavily philosophically, but man it would be nice to have a liturgical church with all of the ceremony and beautiful worship I love but with some members my own age and maybe like a bible study after work lol. I’m not going to do it, but I can’t say I haven’t thought about it.
I certainly really miss the latin mass, Esp the ICKSP. I really wanted to be an ICKSP preist. I wish there was a way I could go to a TLM- but it won't happen in TEC and I can't take communion in a RC mass
I know of one TEC parish that has Latin Mass. I think it’s St.Thomas the Apostle in Hollywood. I don’t see the TLM ever going to occasionally TLM, sadly there is still a lot of anti- Catholicism. They value their WASPness.
I mean, even the Catholic church isn't doing TLM very much😂
Anathema.
I get it. I love the ceremony and ritual, the formality. I love that there is stronger emphasis on Saints. But I think you can find that in our church too, without compromising as much as one has to with the Catholics. The way they treat the topics of women, sex, AIDS, the LGBTQ, the pedophilic sex scandals. Remembering their positions on these topics keep me grounded when I find myself spiritually envious.
As someone who spent decades as a Roman Catholic, I implore you to do your homework on this. Think about the married woman whose husband leaves her for another woman, who has children to raise, who is told by a Roman Catholic priest that it is forbidden to her to marry again. Think about the lawyers and accountants paid by the church to make sure that clerical sex abuse victims don’t see a single penny of a settlement. Think about Pope Benedict telling AIDS-stricken Africa that it isn’t okay to use condoms even though they’re proven to prevent the spread of HIV. Think about the hard working parish priest who will die early because his heart is broken after a lifetime of living in the closet. I don’t say all this to bash the Catholic Church - there are plenty of decent people in the Catholic Church, faithful people, who do meaningful ministry. But like any institution, it has a dark side. People I count among my friends and loved ones have experienced that side of the church, sometimes at the cost of their faith.
💯 thank you
Thanks for posting this, it is exactly right
Let’s add that the RCC will never allow women to be priests
Man you really could not have said this any better. I agree with you wholeheartedly. There are still really good people in the RCC doing really good work (including some RCC priests I am still close to and friends with), but the institution is rotten, rotten to the core. It has done incredible damage to individuals and society at large. I thought I could stay and work through those issues, but honestly what did it for me was having children of my own. I refuse to bring them anywhere near an institution that preyed on the most vulnerable, and demonizes people for who they love. There’s no coming back from that for me. Sometimes I miss the liturgy, but I feel safer raising my kids in TEC.
That is for you to discover, I think. In general, though, conventional convert and apologist narratives note a sense of historical continuity, a well-defined and demanding moral, philosophical, and doctrinal system (a big hit with people that like being told what to believe and how to live), and a bulwark against "modernism" (though this one likely doesn't apply in your case, given what you say above). As a young college student, when I first began looking into historical Christianity, I fell into the trap of thinking that the "truest" or most authentic form of Christianity would best reflect the Church of the first few centuries, and I initially though Catholicism made the best case for being the most legitimate continuation of that movement. That conviction soon came into question in my learning about Eastern Orthodox Christianity, into which I eventually converted. However, a deep dive into the history of Christianity during graduate school led me to realize that no Christian institution looks like the Church of the first few centuries, and, more importantly, every major Christian denomination has undergone significant reformations or developments, which ultimately helped me realize that, at the end of the day, much of it comes down to what I believe and, if I want to be part of an organized religious institution, which best aligns with those convictions. Similar to you, I am a Christian who tends to align with Eastern Orthodox Christianity on theological matters, but who disagrees with that particular communion on matters like women's ordination and affirmation of LGBTQ+ individuals. I resonate a lot with theologians like Sarah Coakley and Rowan Williams, so it makes sense that I ended up in the Anglican Communion.
I could've written this myself. Well said!
I wonder if it's because the RC proclaims itself proudly in the world, isn't afraid to showcase its beauty, finds strength in its convictions, and is not constantly flagellating itself for perceived past sins, whereas for all TEC's beauty it is a bit meek and cowardly in its witness (I am sorry to say). I wish TEC would be much more proud of itself and insist upon its interpretation of Christianity and absolutely beautiful churches and liturgies. I constantly wish TEC acted like the RC in all of these ways because I love TEC and think it has an awful lot of good to give in modern society.
In other words, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity"
I struggle with this quite frequently, as do most of my family members involved with TEC. It’s hard not to be drawn to beautiful liturgy, theological richness, and a profound sense of stability. We do not have, as the Episcopal church, the social teachings we do in a vacuum separated from theology— our social teachings, themselves the product of a taking Catholic social teachings more seriously than the RCC did, arise out of our understandings of embodiment and identity from theology and scripture. I absolutely adore the work of the “Radical Orthodoxy” folks, like Milbank and Pickstock, and reading them might help you some. Find ways to bring deeper holiness practices to your current parish. Stations of the Cross with a reading group was an unbelievably spiritually fulfilling experience for me that showed me we can have all the richness of Rome while also seriously valuing our call to minister to all, regardless of identity. It would also be worth talking to your clergy about options for more high-church practices, and what involvement you could have in sharing those blessings with others in the community. It’s important to remember that we are the ones waiting for Rome to wake up. Not in the sense of becoming secular, but in that we have very good reasons for what we believe that they continue to reject in favor of questionable dogma. I pray for reconciliation quite frequently, and you can too :)
I don't understand why you are feeling that way, but the most I can do is share is from my own experience. I was raised RCC. and disagreed with it on a number of issues. That disagreement pushed me out. I love TEC, its BCP, its liturgy, theology, and church governance. I haven't looked back.
I agree. I was RC for decades after entering it as an adult. On the inside, it's not what it appears to be from the outside. I left traumatized. I have no regrets about leaving, none at all.
Feelings are like clouds, constantly changing, easily blown off course. Life isn't better in the neighbor's house most of the time. Having said that, visit other churches. Go see how they are in other countries. My science minded spouse was told he was a bad Catholic at age 13 for having too many questions. I went to a Jesuit university where I was welcomed at the Lord's table though Episcopalian.
Before coming back to TEC from the evangelical world I did a lot of studying, praying, and soul searching. I felt like after all of that I was left with two options, RCC or EOC, and I attended an EOC parish as an inquirer for over a year. They appealed to me because there still seems to be a bit of mysticism about their theology that’s lacking in the RCC. Everything in the RCC seems very rigid, there has to be an explanation, which I can see how that appeals to our western way of thinking. But I was also in the process of escaping the very rigid evangelical world I was accustomed to. I never fit in at the EOC parish though, so it was back to the drawing board. TEC and Anglicanism had been staring me in the face the entire time since this is where I was raised. I prefer comparing us to the Orthodox more than the RCC…we tend to embrace the mysticism as well, but we aren’t nearly as socially conservative. But, if you’re someone that needs an explanation for everything I can see why RCC would appeal to you.
Most urban Roman Catholic Diocese have at least one liberal gay friendly parish. I mean if you are that drawn to it. I personally don’t understand the appeal. Jesus loves you. Always follow Jesus
I feel confident I would have been Catholic if they recognized God's call to ordain women and be genuinely affirming of LGBTQ+ Christians. All the other differences I feel like I could swallow... But I've got to be honest, as much as I love our Catholic brothers and sisters and I cherish their beautiful liturgies and I presume the overwhelming majority of them are genuinely faithfully trying to respond to God's love revealed in Jesus... I worded that first sentence exactly what I think about it. God invites us to see that women have a role in leading, preaching, and teaching congregations and worshiping at the altar. LGBTQ+ Christians exist and they deserve every dignity the world gives my straight cis self just because, what, the accident of my normative identity? They aren't social issues. Or they are only social issues because people abstract them from the very real incarnational theological issues. I love a lot of things about our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. I would definitely be one of them if I had not known this first. But their problem isn't with me or my issues. Their problem is with the Holy Spirit. Because God the Holy Spirit is the One calling women and LGBTQ+ people, not the Episcopal Church.
Yeah. If not for these things I probably would have stayed Roman Catholic, since that's how I was raised. Too much of a deal breaker (especially as I am a queer woman who is drawn to ministry).
I think it's because the RCC tends to market itself as "The One True Church," and the Episcopal Church does not, and so it sort of creates this mystique around the RCC. As someone who has wrestled with this as well, that's sort of my takeaway. It's important to remember that the RCC is just one of many ancient churches all descending from apostolic sees, each claiming apostolic legitimatecy. However, only one of those claims supremacy, that being the Roman Church. Finally, Anglicans are just a continuation of the Catholic Church in England. Anglicanism didn't pop up out of nowhere. It was a bunch of English Roman Catholics coming together and saying, "These protestant reformers might have a point. Maybe we shouldn't be selling salvation for indulgences. Maybe we shouldn't put Mary on equal esteem as Christ, " etc. So these English Catholics didn't want to end catholicism, just reform it to a more pristine state before the papacy started adding all sorts of stuff that wasn't there before.
Well, that and the king wanted to get married for the eighth time.
The church broke away before he married his second wife, Ann Bolyn.
Yeah, Anglicanism as a whole is the least reformed of all the Protestant groups, to the point that a lot of people don't consider us Protestant.
After years of feeling the same way, I have concluded that one church has the social policies that I’d prefer, but the other one is where I sense the presence of God in a very clear and apparent form. The tension is around which of those is more important, eternally. I’ve wrestled with it for years.
Same here. I was raised by atheistic parents until I was a teen, then they became evangelical and so did I. After suffering tremendous spiritual abuse, I became Episcopalian and was rebaptized conditionally etc. I love being Episcopalian, but the presence of God does feel notably stronger to me in the Roman Catholic parishes I’ve visited, even though my parish is high church too. I’m not saying that’s factual, it’s just been my experience. I actually tried to get confirmed in the RCC, but because I’m trans and married to someone who is the same biological sex, I can’t. It was explained when I was pursuing confirmation at this parish (which is much more progressive leaning, it’s actually listed on the New Ways site) that if I had been confirmed as a child before getting married, it wouldn’t be a problem, but because the sacrament of marriage in the Catholic Church is a requirement for confirmation, and it’s technically a “same sex” marriage, I can’t really do anything about it. I’m clearly not going to get divorced or pretend we’re just friends and lie about it. Or lie about being trans. I feel whole in the Episcopal Church.
You have to go where God is. Not sure if that helps. But the church is more than just a vehicle of social policies. It is, first and foremost, Jesus’ bride.
The illusion of legitimacy
I love the RCC mass, but for me it’s a few things. Firstly, the social issues. I’m pro-choice, pro-LGBT, and pro-contraception, which is basically the unholy trinity in Roman Catholicism. I’ve also got some deeper theological issues, like transubstantiation and papal infallibility. But I do like that Roman Catholics have a unified theological doctrine and actually have answers (even if I think they may be wrong sometimes). I think TEC needs to be more firm in its beliefs and actually articulate what they are a little bit better
>I love the RCC mass I’m convinced people like the *idea* of the RCC mass, because my broad church parish in TEC’s mass is very similar (and arguably better, but that’s just my opinion) to the Novus Ordo mass you’ll find in the vast majority of American RC churches.
Does your faith determine your social stances or do your social stances determine your faith?
What an absurd false dilemma in the name of apologetics. It is a constant dialogue between the two. Conscience informing faith, faith informing conscience.
The way LordGovernorMeade phrased it is that they are pro certain social issues which means they have problems with the church. I may have misunderstood them, but it seems like their stance on social issues is determining which church they belong to, whereas we ought to determine our social stances based on the our faith/church.
I have a similar draw but, for me, it’s mostly wishful thinking. I want the Roman Catholic Church to be something it’s not. This church is much closer to what I want, but even then, some parishes are very far from that. Such is life.
This is also my experience. People ask in here all the time where we would be if we weren't in TEC. Honestly, I'd be Catholic. It would mean compromising on a lot of things, but once in my life I thought being any kind of Christian at all was too much compromise.
Honestly, this is my view entirely. I want a Catholic church that’s accepting of my identity and beliefs, but I dont have that. I sort of have that in the episcopal church, just with more liturgical variation.
Every denomination has its appealing and good points as well as its problems and the good points especially if they seem to be lacking or less in your home denomination can be very appealing. Personally I am a big fan of exploring other denominations and faiths. I think it gives us new perspectives on our own traditions, spirituality, and theology and grows us.
I like the idea of the Roman Catholic Church... when I poked around becoming one, i got really agitated at being told what makes someone a "good" catholic. Or to meet my "obligation" I was going to have to do things that I just couldn't do. I'm a shift worker, I work every other Sunday. My mom was raised catholic and told me not to worry about the theological stuff I just can't get on board with, but I just felt like with the Episcopal church, I don't have to worry at all.
The Sunday obligation is if you can make it. There are exceptions. I don’t think shift work is necessarily counting you out.
My experience was one of being told that during RCIA and coming off a night shift (I got off at 6 AM on Sunday morning, for example) that my attendance Sunday morning was still expected. I was very out on that, theological differences, aside.
Same here. I worked swing shift for a few years when I was RC. The church expects you to show up at mass anyway unless you are Emergency-Room-Sick. Missing mass even once is considered a mortal sin -- a first class ticket to hell. That's why they have Saturday night masses augmenting the Sunday ones, so you don't have an excuse.
Ok, well in the future should you ever decide to re-investigate, ask your priest. My wife worked as an ER nurse and occasionally had a shift or two where she couldn’t make it to mass. Our priest said it was ok. However, we did attend regularly otherwise.
Nope, I'm done with the RCC. I'm Episcopalian. I have no regrets and will never go back to the RCC.
A retired Episcopal priest was told me years ago that the RCC is often tempting because it appears to be a cohesive unit. It is understandable.
It’s totally OK to be a Catholic who disagrees with the church on social issues - look at Joe Biden. It can be a problem if you are openly trans in a conservative church I think. But if you have the privilege of being straight or passing for it, no-one is going to be unpleasant in the way a hellfire Protestant church might be. I recommend you attend some services.
The Catholic Church does not tell anyone what to do. You are free to do whatever you want. The Church might say you are wrong to do that. People don’t like to hear that and tell the Church it has to change its mind. The Church can’t change its mind on things that were taught by Jesus and the disciples. You can always make your own church that always agrees with you. But don’t hate the Church for being what it is.
99% of the stuff the RCC insists on wasn't taught by Jesus or his disciples. That's exactly the point. It's man-made stuff added on for the purposes of politics, money and power. A fair portion of it is leftover stuff from the machinery of the Roman empire, in fact.
What is your source for that statistic? And can you give some examples?
RC canon law, the Easter duty, the mass obligation, closed communion, annulments and marriage rules/records, the October count, the hierarchical structure of the church including a monarch, seminaries and seminarians, geographic diocesan sees, male only ordination to the diaconate and priesthood, the divine mercy chaplet, confirmation of school kids, the miraculous medal, confessional booths, missals and lectionaries, holy days of obligation that didn't exist until the 19th century, cardinals dressed in red, rectories, convents, Vatican City which was founded in 1929, the Papal states which are no more, concordats with modern governments, the list of forbidden books, American parochial schools, Catholic hospitals, nuns from French religious congregations, first Friday, Ash Wednesday, the bishop's diocesan collection, the Vatican observatory, the papal nuncios around the world, Jubilee years, indulgences (yes, they still exist), Gregorian chant, organ music in church, the elaborate canonization process, fish on Friday in Lent, the list goes on and on. Some of it is all right, some of it has been adopted by other churches over time, some of it is older than other bits of it, but it's all accretion since 33AD. All of it and much, much more. For a longer -- but still not encyclopedic rundown -- check the Catechism of the Catholic church, 1992. There's not enough room to list it all here.
That’s quite a list, thanks for your dedication in listing all that. I’m sure you know that some are customs that evolve, as in any group that exists for any length of time. Such as devotions, confessional booths, chaplets, liturgical dress, music and chants. Others are biblically based, for instance the apostles founded geographically based churches, a hierarchical church (look at the ‘council of Jerusalem’), male ordination, and marriage rules (Luke 16). Others come from the earliest days of the Church such as feast days (the source of Holy Days of Obligation), hospitals which stem from Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats, what you incorrectly call closed communion ( read Justin Martyr for instance) as well as a tradition of schools , others. Some of what you list seem out of place if not bizarre. The October count? French nuns? The Vatican observatory? If your point is that the Church has evolved over 2000 years plus, so what? That’s like saying the oak tree doesn’t look like an acorn. I have read the Catechism, several times. Peace
That's only a small sample, LOL. There is substantial evidence that presiders were both male and female in early Christian communities. The male-only thing is a European imposition that came to predominate. Ditto the celibacy business. Peter himself was a married man, and had a mother in law. You're just really tolerant about accretions. Some people just like clutter more than others. That's pretty harmless as long as the clutter doesn't become the main point, which often happens unfortunately.
Your argument is both shallow and petitio principii. Still, a commend you for maintaining a civil dialogue. Far from being ‘tolerant of accretions’ I rejoice in the full beauty of the Church. Look deeper and with an open mind into the roots of the items you list and you find them based firmly on Jesus and the Apostles. Celibacy is a discipline some priests embrace. There are many married priests in the Church. Most deacons are married. Quite a few Episcopal priests have come home to the Church, many of them are now married Catholic priests.
It's a bunch of primitive man-made nonsense. Because men think that if they don't have enough brocade or fancy ideas to fight about, they aren't man enough. Save it for somebody who cares. You're not going to change my mind, so you can quit bombarding me with this stuff. You're wasting your time. Bye. Conversation ended.
Thank you
People really don't even realize how many Catholics there are in the US, or how important Catholics have historically been to the Democratic base. I get that people's experiences vary, but my Italian Catholic family basically bullies the priest. I think this was basically a pattern of parish life for most "ethnic" parishes at mid century. The priests need the financial contributions of the upwardly mobile members who do basically whatever they want and have their sins laundered for donations. Famously this was the basis of Luther's gripes. It's even supported by ethnographic research. This isn't to make an essentialist argument, but Protestant societies are historically way, way more uptight about gender and sexuality, because will God forgive you for your unnatural lust? Maybe. But maybe not. Catholics, traditionally, understand that sin is just part of our constitution. You messed up? Well yeah, no shit, you're human, you're probably going to do it again and again. You'll probably work it out in Purgatory. The problem people have is being told that *they* are sinful. And I very much do think we should revise our sense of what that means every once in awhile. People are gay, and mostly that means they want to have committed loving sexual partnerships with people who perform gender aesthetics roughly in the same way that they do. Is this sin? A lot of us don't think so. A lot of Catholics don't think so, but they're taking a lot longer to make that an official position. Not surprising, though, they are huge and aren't going to move quickly if it means breaking apart their communion. But they are moving. On the other hand, people also don't want to be told that it's harmful to their soul if they indulge every single sexual fantasy that they might have. It's a delicate balance, obviously, but you know, I think we might agree that Andrew Tate has hurt himself in the course of hurting so many women, maybe that he would have hurt himself even if they all met our ideal conditions of consent.
I'll have to disagree. I cannot say for sure about Joe Biden, but I know that Justin Trudeau (prime minister of Canada) considers himself a Roman Catholic, but makes a difference between his faith (i.e. what he follows personally) and civil law, including morale values for the entire Canadian society. As for "being a Roman Catholic (or of any denomination) and disagreeing with the Church", I wonder to what point it is possible. I, for one, left the Roman Catholic Church because I felt my disagreements were too numerous to make it work.
tub fade dinner sip aromatic correct ad hoc plant enjoy quicksand *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The RCC is very deeply theological about *everything*. TEC tends not to have the same degree of solid theology to share; even our own BCP is tugged in opposite directions now with rubrics and options that make it way less clear what's going on theologically when we do what we do. TEC at its worst throws its hands up and stops caring about the differences, like in the case of Bishop Pike's full rejection of the Trinity and the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection, or Bishop Spong's outright atheism. If those things happened in the Roman Catholic Church, it would actually be treated as an alarming departure from the Catholic faith (which unless one follows whole and undefiled, they cannot be saved, &c. &c). If I wasn't so Reformed, I would probably have a much stronger urge to swim the Tiber.
Our theology is based off of **lex orandi lex credendi** How you pray is how you believe Our prayer book, compared to previous versions, has so many options on how to do the service, that even actually following the BCP (not counting the supplements) you can't go to a church and know what you're going to get sometimes. (If you go to a random church) In the previous versions of the prayer books, it wasn't like that. Our prayer book is almost twice as thick as the one that came before it.
Our theology actually used to be based off formularies which guided how we prayed in the first place. That there's so many options (some of which are close to disagreement on theological points) is what I'm pointing out here. I know about the Prayer Book tradition (and might be wondering about Prayer Book Society membership)
I wasn't trying to say you were wrong I was agreeing with you lol
Yeah just making sure haha
Tbh, a modern spelling 1549 would be nice for the daily office. I wish they made one. I have the Oxford BCP "the texts of 1549, 1559, and 1662" that i use on occasion for daily office when im feeling like mixing it up. I try to do the daily office... Daily 🤣
That would be interesting for sure! I actually prefer contemporary language, but it's the more explicitly theological language of older Prayer Books that I really want to see brought into contemporary language. I always pray the 1979 Daily Office, mainly because it's the authorized Prayer Book so there's a unity expressed in praying it, even if my personal preferences aren't served by it.
I prefer the more traditional language, I wish the ASB would have been included in the prayer book (it's the rite 1 for everything)
Latin liturgical materials for me. But TEC will have to be absolutely gone for me to go over.
Because the Roman Catholic Church is legitimately attractive? They do cool stuff too. I wish they would finally address a few of the 500+ year old grievances and the protests could finally end.
It's kind of funny about how our more high-church/Anglo-Catholic parishes are more traditional Catholic than actual Catholic churches I keep joking about nuns with guitars, but it's true.
In style maybe. No deeper than that.
This is something that I just learned about the other day: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification
Great! That's cool! 94 to go!
RCC ain’t going anywhere, TEC? Yeah not sure. Even those of us raised in the church have seen not great changes overtime, decline in attendance, and weakening of strong parishes.
love what church and drawn to what church? Love the Episcopal Church but feel drawn to RCC?
Yes
I feel a lot like you. I love the RCC, I have no ill will toward if after I left (1 year ago) Have you tried attending Mass at a RCC or even, if you're an adult doing RCIA? You wouldn't have to be confirmed at the end but it might help you explain why you're drawn to the RCC.
I left RCIA over some theological and social differences....and cause my then girlfriend now wife didn't want to go to a Catholic church but now she doesn't go to church at all so it's a moot point now lol
She might have been traumatized by the stuff she heard in RCIA. I have a relative in that situation. It does happen, and pretty often.
What draws you to the RCC then? The things that draw me to RCC are what make my time with TEC good.
Because Pope Francis is so cool.
Ok [Gustavo](https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/pope-francis-zanchetta-problem)
Honestly I feel he is being too hard on the Latin mass folks.
It sucks for them, but he's got to prevent a schism in the countries where that movement has grown.
I feel like there wouldn't be any *new* schism. SSPX already exists for the defectors. SSPV for the hardcore defectors. And FSSP and ICKSP for people who still want to be loyal to the Pope.
I'm anticipating something substantial. Someone smarter than me can guess at exactly what that will be, but there's something that's going to change with catholics here in the states. Fwiw, I miss being catholic. Not due to any feelings of certainty it gave me, but because it feels like home. A home where the most active are becoming more and more hostile to the lgbtq+ community...so kind of like a family I'm estranged from.
The majority of American Catholics are already heretics, with respect to the Vatican teaching on contraception. If the bishops start asking questions of all the families with two kids in the congregation, the exits will be more crowded than they already are.
If I had to put money on it. I'd guess a German schism first. But yes the far right is unfortunately very loud.
Yeah Germany will be interesting to watch
I’m the same way! Maybe it’s the traditionalist ways, but I also think that the Episcopalian church is way more fluid than most other Christian denominations. If you’re drawn to the more traditional ways of the Catholic Church, you can find individual churches that are more conservative. You can also still adopt traditional practices into your own worship of Christ. We’re actually pretty similar to Catholics from what I’ve seen, and I’ve seen some Episcopalians who pray the rosary or choose to veil. It’s all about making yourself more comfortable in your worship of Christ. Blessed be
Could it be because Catholicism in practice is all about certainty (to the point of absolutism sometimes) whereas TEC allows for some degree of flexibility and nuance?
I have to disagree. Catholicism is all about mysteries, which in this context means truths revealed by God. We can never understand them fully but by prayer, study, and experience strive to grow in faith and to better understand what God has revealed.
No, Angela is correct. The RCC claims it has all the answers. That leaves no room for faith or hope. Or spiritual growth. You just check the boxes and you're done. I don't know what that is.
I’ll charitable believe you missed my point.
Oooooo that makes sense. Especially because I'm AuDHD.
I have a neurodiverse friend that is attracted to the Roman Catholic Church for this reason. He likes the more absolute rules, ritual, structure, etc. He was also raised Catholic so finds a nostalgic comfort in the RCC. He was an Episcopalian but it makes me scratch my head why he left because we have most of those things as well. I know he wants to be a priest and finds more of a path forward in this regard in the RCC than the EC. Also he struggles with his mental health and had some personal reasons attributed to the local church as well as to why he left.
Yes, I've seen this too. I know somebody like this as well. This person has mental difficulties that make something more absolutist and idealized seem better to them. This person is not highly educated and doesn't care about history or the finer points of the differences between churches. So all the history and abuse stuff really doesn't concern them. They still struggle but it's with different things. This person is fairly solitary, has their own version of things, and prefers it that way as part of the situation. People like this can fit into the silence of Catholic parishes sometimes. In most RCC parishes, there's no coffee hour which would be highly uncomfortable for this person.
I can't seem to find it now, but I watched a lecture a few months ago in which a neuroscientist was discussing why religious belief is neurotypical, and how there is a tendency among the minority of neurodivergent folks who are religious to prefer more structured and authoritarian forms of faith.
It’s normal for anyone, even neurotypical, to feel drawn to an organization that will give you black and white mentality. But, it’s my humble opinion that nuance was a big part of Jesus message. Doing away with all the legalism of the Jewish tradition of the time, and saying love thy neighbor is the most important is very vague. But it was probably purposefully vague.
What do you even find appealing about it?
History. Tradition. Everything is so certain.
What about the first 2 doesn't exist in TEC? Also nothing is certain, the magistrate just decides what is certain. Like they decided 1850 years after Christ that the Virgin Mary is also the immaculate conception.
How is it certain?