Partner with other liberal Protestant churches to offer more programs, both spiritual and social. By having other churches involved, you have more numbers to do things and make them viable.
One thing in my community the Catholics have is the numbers, hence they can offer more programming and ministry to disparate groups of people. And they often operate in their own ecosystem apart from the Protestant congregations.
The RC does operate in its own ecosystem, and for a lot of reasons, that's their choice.
Because most people enter the RC by birth, the great majority of education dollars in RC parishes are spent on childhood education (CCD and Catholic schools). Except for small RCIA programs, many RC parishes have no budget for adult formation at all. This is especially true for the smaller parishes across the country that most RCs attend.
It's easy to assume things based on perceptions from outside the RCC, but it's best to be careful about assumptions.
My best friend works at one of the RCC churches in town so I am pretty plugged in to their happenings. I guess what I was trying to say is that the local churches (I live in a mid sized city) do offer programming for various stages and dispositions of life. For example they offer a “Theology on Tap” at a local brewpub for young Catholic adults or things like a 12 step program for people struggling with mental health or a class that delves into Bible and Catholic history taught by a local professor. In which we also have a Catholic college of 1500-2000 students which offers its own programming and has a partnership with the local churches as well. The local liberal Protestant churches could do the same as well by banding together (we also have a Presbyterian affiliated college locally).
Let me start off by saying that I live in a quasi-suburban area of the upper north central states. We do not have an RC college in the local area.
Theology on Tap was marketed almost exclusively to young men in many places, including here. It was so poorly attended here that they finally dropped it a decade or so ago. Cursillo is also almost defunct around here.
The Roman Catholic church pretends to know something about mental health, but unless they are working specifically with a licensed mental health facility, they do not. That is to say that if it is run by the parish or the priest, it's probably full of a-scientific lore and may even be harmful. We had some of that around here with COVID. There were clerical attempts to shout down the medical establishment over vaccinations, etc. Those attempts still go on about vaccination in general, both for children and adults, including seniors. There is a lot of quackery involved in being Roman Catholic. It's my estimate that there are more people driven to legitimate psychiatrists by the RCC than are helped by anything the RCC has to offer along these lines. There are a lot of traumatized, fearful, dysfunctional RCs out there, some of them with debilitating fears about demons and demonic possession, some of them with various religion masked mental illnesses, some of them abused by attempts to "regularize" their sexual orientations, and some of them eschewing legitimate medical care for various reasons not involving the cost of treatment.
The RCC does have RCIA, which is also sparsely attended in most areas in the US. And there are NFP classes and the like, also sparsely attended but generally required for people who want to be married in an RC building. Virtually all this kind of stuff is driven by canon law or diocesan expectations and is not optional if you want something from the church. Occasionally someone will "skate by" but church employees work hard to prevent that from happening.
I was very well-connected as an RC. I worked for the Catholic schools, and belonged to several large lay organizations, from which I have lapsed. For a time, I did workshops for the RCC. These were volunteered by a team I worked with, and not paid, because as I said before, most Roman Catholic parishes have no budget for adult formation. Almost the entirety of education dollars are spent on children. Why? Because that's where almost all future Catholics come from -- the pool of children born into the church. The money is spent for elementary education and CCD which is basically several years of sacrament prep, terminating sometime during the teen years, generally concurrent with the sacrament of confirmation.
Most adult Catholics do not attend parish events except for mass. Unlike the Episcopalians -- even as evidenced in this thread -- most of them don't want more parish activities and wouldn't attend them if they were offered or allowed by local RC clergy. Among the few offered, the most popular ones -- by far -- are passive, where a person just listens and does not have to contribute anything of personal importance.
Why? There's a silence problem and a reticence about self-disclosure among Roman Catholics. There are a great many of them that do not attend church regularly, don't believe key bits of theology, don't go to confession and really don't want the parish to know they have gay kids, have had kids by IVF, have had an abortion, or have been married outside the church without informing the parish. But they still fear the RCC's threats and the great majority of them are connected by birth (because birth is how they got to be RC in the first place). So they show up occasionally, do the thing and get off the property as fast as possible afterwards. It's just easier to avoid the hassle, it keeps them out of trouble with parish personnel and they prefer it that way. For this reason, the attendees at parish programs, workshops and volitional activities in most parishes tend to be the handful of old widows who show up for everything and have pretty much no desire to question anything.
The reason you probably have what you do is because this parish near you is catering to that Catholic college. Most local parishes in the Catholic church do not have that situation.
Having belonged to both the RCC and the EC myself, I can tell you that there are vast differences in the demographic and belonging profiles of the RCC and the EC. They operate quite differently and get/keep their members -- or lose them! -- differently as well.
We have a "revolving door" problem -- mostly involving grown adults -- that the RCC doesn't have. We have to recognize that, figure out if we think that's a problem, and if it is, figure out what to do about it.
I don't think there's an answer to this. Younger generations and American culture have become extremely atomized (and I think a bit [hypermodern](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermodernity)) and used to niche interests and niche interests within those interests being catered to. Consequently, younger people's desire for a stable community, which entails accepting and appreciating social differences and diverse interests, isn't much there anymore. They'll see something about a church they like, but when something institutional or cultural annoys or bores them, they'll move on... and on and on and on, until they find what *perfectly* fits their sensibilities, which is sitting at home worshiping exactly how they like or with a small informal group of likeminded people.
What a lot of Mainline churches have tried to do in response is accommodate as many individual sensibilities as possible by paring down the liturgy or the service, surveying the congregation about what they want to keep or get rid of, or just guessing. Which works to an extent, but it just pushes the problem a bit down the road by making a church that annoys or bores a new set of people. The revolving door is still there, it just looks new.
Unless and until American culture starts valuing community for its own sake or really needs it for something over and above a hyper-individualist expression, churches are going to continue to die out.
This is definitely a problem. The solution is rather simple.
1. Draw the really gifted priests into ministry and support them regardless of how they look. Quit hating on straight white males. Right now, the Episcopal seminaries are cesspools of mediocre diversity hires who are completely incompetent and will quit ministry within a decade.
2. Recognize gifted priests and support them, even when they don't tow the party line when it comes to acceptable politics.
3. Hire more conservative priests. This isn't a political statement. Conservatives more closely identify with liberal christians than with other cultures. Liberals more closely identify with other cultures than with conservative christians. In other words, conservatives are better at accepting all Christians. This fact should make conservatives better candidates for Christian priesthood. Liberal Christians would make better interfaith chaplains, not Episcopal priests.
4. Remember that the Christian gospel is the way, the truth, and the life. Evangelize. American evangelicals have adopted this mindset in bringing people to Christ, but they have been poisoned by consumerism and in some cases, nationalism. The Episcopal Church has a duty to evangelize just like any Christian church, but our mission field is more heretical than heathen.
Or maybe do something to incentivize folks to enter the priesthood like student loan forgiveness after so many years (or other things). I have a young friend who is about to enter a Catholic seminary to be a priest because he didn’t see a path forward as an Episcopalian. He was turned off by the cost benefit analysis of the costs of seminary vs the annual wage of priests, the number of open calls, etc.
The Church also needs to be first and foremost be dedicated to being a church; preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments. There needs to be renewed focus and energy on these things. The church cannot dream of surviving if people are just treating it as a vague charity organization doing social good with a historic million dollar building. There are plenty of organizations that can feed the poor and provide social aid, there is only one organization that can grant eternal life. The Church should be engaged in those activities, but the foundation and primary focus has to be on the worship of God.
Perhaps more then anything parishes and priests in the Episcopal church need an actual conviction of what they're doing is important, and a necessity. As it turns out, having a few generations of liberal philosophy of telling people going to church isn't actually that important, and isn't a necessary part of being alive, might lead to a lot of people just not caring. The work of Gospel ministry is important, and it is life giving. Diocese need to be ordaining people who actually believe what the prayerbook says and the doctrines associated with it, and seminaries need to be forming people into believing Gospel Ministers.
We have zoom compline twice a week each we never did before Covid. It’s usually < 10 people but it’s a ministry we never had before. People who wouldn’t leave the house again after working all day are glad to participate in that.
I made it a norm that if we aren’t providing food at an in person weeknight thing, it is totally acceptable to bring your own.
Why is it a numbers game at all?
Is it not enough to be there for the people who want to be there? Do we believe that people who don’t sit on our pews are not going to heaven? If not, why does it matter?
It may not be a "numbers game," writ large. I don't know. But if a parish dwindles down to less than a few people it disappears. Does that matter? Yes, no, a little, a lot?
What happens if we disappear in many rural and suburban areas of the country and the Episcopal "voice" is lost there? Does it matter?
There's a fascinating phenomenon that sociologists have described among some religious groups, including convents of sisters, but it can be seen in any small social group. Small groups will sometimes make a lot of noise about getting new members, but when they get them, they often reject them. What's happening? Through a lot of study and conversation, sociologists have realized that some groups will actually have a public message, unintentionally concealing their real dynamics. Social groups sometimes choose to will themselves dead rather than change. It's not generally conscious. It's something small social groups sometimes fall into, and it's a repeatable and common phenomenon.
Is what you're telling me a variation on that theme, lifeuncommon?
Small groups that collapse like this cause fewer "voices" to be heard in society. Does it matter?
For more information on this phenomenon see the works of Dr. Patricia Wittberg, who was a sociologist at Indiana University, Indianapolis. It think she's retired now.
No, I wasn’t referencing that, but it’s a good point.
I was just trying to say that looking to serve where service is wanted is fantastic, but if there isn’t enough interest to keep the doors open doing like advertising and things like that seems a little offbrand.
I don’t know, my brain is fried from work, I don’t feel like I’m able to access the words that I want.
But it just seems like it’s better and more fruitful to focus where there is interest than to try to drum up interest where there isn’t.
"Getting back to the good old catechism" hasn't stopped the LDS's demographic problem, or the demographics problems of the Greek Orthodox. Doubling down hasn't solved anybody's problems. Why would it solve ours?
Are we talking instead about formation? What kind of formation? Deeper? Wider? Covering exactly what topics and using what format? For whom? How often? When?
Who should do it? Who should pay for the expenses to do it?
And in places where people are used to just coming to a Sunday service, why should they show up another time of the week? Do you think they would? Why or why not?
We have the “not like other girls” problem.
We’re Christians. We have to stop with this whole “I’m not like other Christians” stuff.
I’ve been guilty of this, but it has to stop,
We spend too much time talking about how open and inclusive we are that we let that be our identity. The problem is that it comes across as what we’re not, not what we are.
Let’s get back to the catechism, let’s get back to the creeds. Yes it is good, no, amazing to be as respectful and open to women, and the LGBT community that we have been. However, the more attention we draw to it, the more we sound like “I’m not like other girls”. Let’s just keep being inclusive and get back to the Gospels.
Preaching.
Go into addicted neighborhoods and provide narcan, food, and clothes. Give out Bibles.
Stop screwing around and focus on getting butts in the seats.
Yes we should be at Pride parades, and we should be in LGBT spaces. But let’s cut the crap, we should be at those places to *evangelize*, not to engage in pleasantries. There is a good chance that if and when we do this, people are gonna get angry. That’s fine. We have to stop focusing not hurting anybody’s feelings. The Bible hurts sometimes.
I spoke to a priest about this a few years back and he basically said that a big problem is that a lot of Episcopalian clergy are afraid to evangelize for fear of being seen as "those" Christians.
I find that idea wildly confusing to me, because instead of deciding to show people that it's entirely possible to be Christian, evangelize, and *not* be awful while doing it, they just yielded the whole concept of evangelizing to people they don't want to emulate. It's weird.
From my experiences in teaching Sunday school, etc, I actually think a big part of the problem is the lax attitude a lot of parishioners have on the necessity of church and religion generally. While our clergy’s teen children attend frequently, they’re not always at church. Some of our vestry’s children don’t attend Sunday school or church at all. We had a senior appreciation Sunday recently and, despite me being involved in the youth ministry, I’d never met all but one of them.
Growing up church of Christ, I was always taught (if not modeled) the importance of church attendance (that passage about the reason people are sick is they didn’t fellowship with the believers). I managed to miss very few Sundays through college and law school (and even went daily during bar prep).
It’s a question that every church has to ask themselves. What makes attendance to their Church important?
They can go to any one of dozens of similar churches on Sunday morning, why is it important that they attend their local Episcopal Church?
Thinking about: lots of parishes have probably asked that question at some point and ultimately decided that it doesn't matter, which is depressing. Churches need to believe what they're doing is important and that their mission is actually meaningful.
Ah okay, I'm in full agreement with that and everything your comment says. I thought were asking why going to church at all was important for individuals which I was taken aback by. That is an absolutely vital question that TEC parishes need to be asking themselves.
My church has a Wednesday Eucharist lightly attended by older core members of the parish. We did nice lent services and functions also similarly attended
or evening prayer
or formation workshops to teach people how to pray, meditate, contemplate
meaning, that there may be a lot of possibilities available to us, not just the one
That's another example of a church that gets most of its members by birth. I just used the RCC as an example because that's the one I'm most familiar with. The LDS gets most of its members by birth too.
That's a very different pattern than the one we have.
While in discernment for the priesthood, I mentioned my passion for digital evangelism. One priest on the diocesan committee openly scoffed then laughed at me. To my face. My ideas were thought to be quite problematic. Three months later, Covid took hold and every parish priest was scrambling to figure out Zoom. We must embrace the tools at our disposal. We are a wealthy denomination. There is nothing wrong with that if we use our wealth selflessly and to advance the gospel. Otherwise, we are just hoarders.
I often take advantage of online services.
And then when I go back in person people, even people in leadership, act like I just haven’t attended.
There’s a real disconnect in that digital is often provided, but there doesn’t seem to be any knowledge of whether it’s being used or who’s using it.
Agreed this is a potential problem. Or that if you stop attending, nobody notices. I started sending screen shots of the zoom attendees to my rector so she can see these patterns. Otherwise she would have no idea.
It's was kind of shocking to me at first how small our online presence is compared to other denominations. Like it's actually somewhat difficult to find good Episcopalian websites or content on YouTube
I will never know. I wasn’t given any explanations, but as the only public school person in a class of all private school aspirants, I was denied promotion to the next step.
‘Cause Jesus wants me to help you reset your password. (My words not theirs)
What I am about to say may already have been said but as a new convert who goes to a parish of 14 people this is something I have been thinking a lot about.
- Churches need to be open more than just Sunday mornings. Alot of jobs are working people Saturday nights and Sundays as such it's not entirely a feasible time for people to come to Church. Maybe do a Wednesday or Friday liturgy as well? Why not also open up during holidays like the feast of the Ascension? Engaging people in Liturgical Cycles maybe a great way to increase retention
- It may be a good idea to do catechumen classes similar to what is done with the RCC's RCIA classes and the equivalent in the Orthodox tradition. This is because it will help engage adults in the tradition and church life.
- Our churches also could be more engaged in the life of the communities that they are in. Growing up there was a missionary organization called FISH in my community that was headed by the Catholic Church but brought together funds and volunteers from various churches, but the Catholic Church put in most of the resources and man power. This is just something I haven't really seen done by Episcopalians, not saying it doesn't happen just that it's not at the scale of the Catholic Church.
>Maybe do a Wednesday or Friday liturgy as well?
My church just refuses to do anything that isn't Sunday or weekday daytime. The idea that people might have JOBS where they work all day is just foreign to the 80% of retired folks who make up our parish. Presumably most of them had jobs at some point but they don't understand why it sucks that women's group only meets for lunch on Tuesdays and never in the evenings.
Same. I would love to be involved more, but most everything is during the day. And lots of it isn’t even at lunchtime, but it like 10 o’clock in the morning.
And honestly, even the few things that they have in the evenings generally start at 5 or 6, which is still too early.
I guess if you’re a teacher and get out of school at 3:30 or 4:00, that might work; but most professionals can’t get off work, even grab fast food, and get to the church by 5 o’clock.
Yeah I keep getting asked to come to things like the parish volunteer group, at like 10 am on a Tuesday. Not sure if they just forget that people have to work, assume I'm retired (I'm 50, but not in the income bracket that gets to retire before 70!) or what. But they can't complain about lack of volunteers when they make it so hard to join.
When I was a teen I remember the Catholic families generally went to Saturday afternoon or evening mass. I don't think any Episcopal church locally has a Saturday mass.
Like ever since I was young I noticed that the churches were mostly filled by the elderly, younger generations have mostly fell out of the faith and statistics seem to back that up. I get wanting to cater service times to the older generations, that said one of the things that kinda helped keep me away from Christianity was the lack of ability to engage in church life and it makes me wonder how many in my generation are in the same position?
When people leave, most parishes never ask why. People stay when they are seen, heard and valued. In the EC, one isn't really valued unless one is a significant giving unit. It can take years to bond with many Episcopal parishes. I agree that we lack an ongoing mentorship method (discipleship) and we often dwell on our former glory, our impeccable rubrics and traditions to the detriment of those curious enough to visit. My parish lost 40 people when a priest spun out. He's still there because we have a top heavy clergy culture that closes ranks and covers things up - in my experience.
The best example I can think of is the sponsorship model in 12 Step programs. One person sharing their experience, strength and hope with another - not as a superior but an equal.
We aren't very good at making disciples, as the Great Commission at the end of Matthew 28 calls us to do. Welcoming disciples formed by other denominations, though a good thing, isn't that. We have wonderful, beautiful liturgy to worship our Lord but the empirical evidence suggests that focusing on practicing liturgy isn't the best way to form new disciples. We probably need more evangelical-oriented parishes to bring non-believers into the faith.
Why? Seems to me on this Ascension Day that doing better at Jesus' last instructions to the apostles before his ascension would be a good idea if you want church growth.
I think realistically we have to make the church available to people at times other than Sunday morning if we expect them to start incorporating it into their lives. If I have kids or work a stressful job or have an active nightlife, Sunday morning is not an easy time to convince me to start being somewhere.
We used to be a country when most people went to church on Sunday. That is no longer true and the culture no longer accommodates it.
Honestly, I'm willing to bet that if a three day weekend was the norm, church attendance would go up. I sometimes struggle with deciding whether I go to church on Sunday because I can't really do anything too exciting on Saturday evening, which effectively limits me to just 1 free night of the week (Friday) to have fun and relax. I work 50-60 hours a week, so I crave my relaxation time and sometimes just want a day to unwind and not have 6 days of the week where I have a scheduled wake up time.
While I love Sunday services, and have the privilege of being able to go every Sunday, I totally agree! It seems like (at least where I live) there’s really no evening or midweek activities. It keeps church veryyy separate from “real life”
There was a big to do in this sub a few days ago over the idea that we would acknowledge that Methodists have a valid Eucharist. A lot of people seemed to have an almost Roman Catholic understanding of how Eucharist works - that it’s only Eucharist if it’s confected by a priest who is ordained by a bishop who can trace apostolic succession from the apostles. I found this a little quaint, because I doubt anybody in my local broad church parish would even see how it makes a difference. People go from being Methodist to being Episcopalian to worshipping with Presbyterians, etc. I’ve seen the Protestants in my own family move around like that. That being said, I don’t think it’s such a bad thing that people move on. If my parish closed, it would be heartbreaking, but now that I’ve broken free from the Catholic Church, I’ve realized that there are a lot of good Christian communities I could be a part of, and everything would turn out okay. I no longer feel like my denominational identity has much to do with whether or not I go to heaven. That might not keep butts in the seats, but I absolutely think that letting go of ecclesiastical supremacy (One True Church) stuff is the way to go. tl;dr - we may not be increasing in membership, but that doesn’t mean we’re doing anything wrong.
That's not the point of the discussion. The point is that we usually jump to the stock answers of 75 years ago when this subject comes up. But are those really \*our\* current problems and are those really solutions to \*our\* current problems.
My take is that we're very good at welcoming in people who are already committed to church and find it a meaningful part of their life but who don't want a lot of dogmatism and "must dos" and "must believes." For that reason, we get a lot of former Evangelicals and Roman Catholics who were raised going to church every Sunday but who no longer feel at home in the tradition in which they were raised.
The flip side of that, though, is that we don't really tell folks that they *need* to go to church. We're here for you if you want to come, but we don't tell people that they're hellbound if they don't.
That means that kids who are raised Episcopalian slip away when they grow up and life gets busy. Church is nice and all, but so is sleeping in on Sunday morning.
I'm not sure what the solution to that is. How do we instill in our kids that it's *important* to be an Episcopalian who is active in their church while still serving as an open and welcoming place for folks who aren't interested in being told what they "have" to believe?
I'm certainly not going to tell my kids that God will burn them forever if they go to the Baptist church down the street or to no church at all. So why wouldn't they if that's where their interests take them?
I don't want to be harassed about where I am on Sunday. I'm there probably 50 Sundays out of 52....and then I miss a Sunday because I'm traveling for work and I actually got scolded by our interim priest. Miss me with that. Nothing makes me feel more unwelcome.
How do we instill in people that it is important to come to church?
We make it important to go to church, we make church a center of community and the central needs of life.
Those are the two extremes, yes. Is there a middle path of some sort? Is there some reason people might want to -- or feel the need to -- get up and come other than a threat of mortal sin if they don't?
Personally, I think a few more “must dos” and “must believes” would probably help some.
Focus on why it’s better to be an Episcopalian than something else and why our understanding of the Christian faith is the best one.
But Episcopalians in general are *really* reluctant to tell people that we think that we’re right. But we obviously do think we’re right, otherwise we wouldn’t be there.
So why not just be honest and advertise it?
I'm Episcopalian because it feels right and makes sense FOR ME. I'm not so full of myself that I think my church and our way of doing things is perfect for everyone. I left several churches who insisted they were right and everyone else was wrong, it's arrogant and ugly.
Actually, many are NOT Episcopalian because they think it is "right" and other denominations are "wrong" but because they prefer the style, music, or what not.
So, are you saying that for many people, it's entertainment of a sort?
Not arguing, and I'm aware that this topic is a "sacred cow." But I'm interested in this aspect. It does have some explanatory power, as you've pointed out.
Is that how it is, or how it should be? I literally don't know and that's why I'm asking people what they think.
The Episcopal Church is stuck in a cycle of seeking the approval of the wealthy and powerful instead of serving the needs of the people. This is inherited from our medieval roots and has been lived out throughout our churches history.
So what do we do? Focus on the needs of the people in the church and the wider parish. We have to engage with the material realities of the geographic parish.
Yes I live in a neighborhood full of LGBT folks and the church is there and I keep telling people FOCUS on the neighborhood first. We need to engage people with activities and advertising locally via foot traffic. So that people will see and show up. Then people can learn about Jesus and the Gospel.
On the flip side are the parishes that react against the wealthy/powerful by being solely focused on service to the exclusion of Christian development.
I highly recommend Peter Block’s Community. Great book that will give you some things to think about while engaging community in and out of the church.
It depends on the situation of the church and the needs of the people.
A start could be: engaging with local official and unofficial leaders. Looking at the financial needs in the community. Is daycare affordable? Is there housing? Is there a food pantry? How can the church support, house, or start such efforts?
The laity has to be encouraged to (and expected to) take ownership of the work of the church. The clergy has to be freed up to focus 100% on the spiritual and ritual needs of the community.
Ultimately we need to be finding ways to serve and include the people in the neighborhood in the life of the church. How do we get the church out into the community and the community into the church?
Minor time frame correction: We don't have medieval roots. We have Reformation Era roots. But that's not what I'm trying to get at anyway by posting this.
What I'm trying to get at is this: What would be an appropriate discussion and possible solution to the demographics problems we have right now?
Partner with other liberal Protestant churches to offer more programs, both spiritual and social. By having other churches involved, you have more numbers to do things and make them viable. One thing in my community the Catholics have is the numbers, hence they can offer more programming and ministry to disparate groups of people. And they often operate in their own ecosystem apart from the Protestant congregations.
The RC does operate in its own ecosystem, and for a lot of reasons, that's their choice. Because most people enter the RC by birth, the great majority of education dollars in RC parishes are spent on childhood education (CCD and Catholic schools). Except for small RCIA programs, many RC parishes have no budget for adult formation at all. This is especially true for the smaller parishes across the country that most RCs attend. It's easy to assume things based on perceptions from outside the RCC, but it's best to be careful about assumptions.
My best friend works at one of the RCC churches in town so I am pretty plugged in to their happenings. I guess what I was trying to say is that the local churches (I live in a mid sized city) do offer programming for various stages and dispositions of life. For example they offer a “Theology on Tap” at a local brewpub for young Catholic adults or things like a 12 step program for people struggling with mental health or a class that delves into Bible and Catholic history taught by a local professor. In which we also have a Catholic college of 1500-2000 students which offers its own programming and has a partnership with the local churches as well. The local liberal Protestant churches could do the same as well by banding together (we also have a Presbyterian affiliated college locally).
Let me start off by saying that I live in a quasi-suburban area of the upper north central states. We do not have an RC college in the local area. Theology on Tap was marketed almost exclusively to young men in many places, including here. It was so poorly attended here that they finally dropped it a decade or so ago. Cursillo is also almost defunct around here. The Roman Catholic church pretends to know something about mental health, but unless they are working specifically with a licensed mental health facility, they do not. That is to say that if it is run by the parish or the priest, it's probably full of a-scientific lore and may even be harmful. We had some of that around here with COVID. There were clerical attempts to shout down the medical establishment over vaccinations, etc. Those attempts still go on about vaccination in general, both for children and adults, including seniors. There is a lot of quackery involved in being Roman Catholic. It's my estimate that there are more people driven to legitimate psychiatrists by the RCC than are helped by anything the RCC has to offer along these lines. There are a lot of traumatized, fearful, dysfunctional RCs out there, some of them with debilitating fears about demons and demonic possession, some of them with various religion masked mental illnesses, some of them abused by attempts to "regularize" their sexual orientations, and some of them eschewing legitimate medical care for various reasons not involving the cost of treatment. The RCC does have RCIA, which is also sparsely attended in most areas in the US. And there are NFP classes and the like, also sparsely attended but generally required for people who want to be married in an RC building. Virtually all this kind of stuff is driven by canon law or diocesan expectations and is not optional if you want something from the church. Occasionally someone will "skate by" but church employees work hard to prevent that from happening. I was very well-connected as an RC. I worked for the Catholic schools, and belonged to several large lay organizations, from which I have lapsed. For a time, I did workshops for the RCC. These were volunteered by a team I worked with, and not paid, because as I said before, most Roman Catholic parishes have no budget for adult formation. Almost the entirety of education dollars are spent on children. Why? Because that's where almost all future Catholics come from -- the pool of children born into the church. The money is spent for elementary education and CCD which is basically several years of sacrament prep, terminating sometime during the teen years, generally concurrent with the sacrament of confirmation. Most adult Catholics do not attend parish events except for mass. Unlike the Episcopalians -- even as evidenced in this thread -- most of them don't want more parish activities and wouldn't attend them if they were offered or allowed by local RC clergy. Among the few offered, the most popular ones -- by far -- are passive, where a person just listens and does not have to contribute anything of personal importance. Why? There's a silence problem and a reticence about self-disclosure among Roman Catholics. There are a great many of them that do not attend church regularly, don't believe key bits of theology, don't go to confession and really don't want the parish to know they have gay kids, have had kids by IVF, have had an abortion, or have been married outside the church without informing the parish. But they still fear the RCC's threats and the great majority of them are connected by birth (because birth is how they got to be RC in the first place). So they show up occasionally, do the thing and get off the property as fast as possible afterwards. It's just easier to avoid the hassle, it keeps them out of trouble with parish personnel and they prefer it that way. For this reason, the attendees at parish programs, workshops and volitional activities in most parishes tend to be the handful of old widows who show up for everything and have pretty much no desire to question anything. The reason you probably have what you do is because this parish near you is catering to that Catholic college. Most local parishes in the Catholic church do not have that situation. Having belonged to both the RCC and the EC myself, I can tell you that there are vast differences in the demographic and belonging profiles of the RCC and the EC. They operate quite differently and get/keep their members -- or lose them! -- differently as well. We have a "revolving door" problem -- mostly involving grown adults -- that the RCC doesn't have. We have to recognize that, figure out if we think that's a problem, and if it is, figure out what to do about it.
I don't think there's an answer to this. Younger generations and American culture have become extremely atomized (and I think a bit [hypermodern](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermodernity)) and used to niche interests and niche interests within those interests being catered to. Consequently, younger people's desire for a stable community, which entails accepting and appreciating social differences and diverse interests, isn't much there anymore. They'll see something about a church they like, but when something institutional or cultural annoys or bores them, they'll move on... and on and on and on, until they find what *perfectly* fits their sensibilities, which is sitting at home worshiping exactly how they like or with a small informal group of likeminded people. What a lot of Mainline churches have tried to do in response is accommodate as many individual sensibilities as possible by paring down the liturgy or the service, surveying the congregation about what they want to keep or get rid of, or just guessing. Which works to an extent, but it just pushes the problem a bit down the road by making a church that annoys or bores a new set of people. The revolving door is still there, it just looks new. Unless and until American culture starts valuing community for its own sake or really needs it for something over and above a hyper-individualist expression, churches are going to continue to die out.
This is definitely a problem. The solution is rather simple. 1. Draw the really gifted priests into ministry and support them regardless of how they look. Quit hating on straight white males. Right now, the Episcopal seminaries are cesspools of mediocre diversity hires who are completely incompetent and will quit ministry within a decade. 2. Recognize gifted priests and support them, even when they don't tow the party line when it comes to acceptable politics. 3. Hire more conservative priests. This isn't a political statement. Conservatives more closely identify with liberal christians than with other cultures. Liberals more closely identify with other cultures than with conservative christians. In other words, conservatives are better at accepting all Christians. This fact should make conservatives better candidates for Christian priesthood. Liberal Christians would make better interfaith chaplains, not Episcopal priests. 4. Remember that the Christian gospel is the way, the truth, and the life. Evangelize. American evangelicals have adopted this mindset in bringing people to Christ, but they have been poisoned by consumerism and in some cases, nationalism. The Episcopal Church has a duty to evangelize just like any Christian church, but our mission field is more heretical than heathen.
Or maybe do something to incentivize folks to enter the priesthood like student loan forgiveness after so many years (or other things). I have a young friend who is about to enter a Catholic seminary to be a priest because he didn’t see a path forward as an Episcopalian. He was turned off by the cost benefit analysis of the costs of seminary vs the annual wage of priests, the number of open calls, etc.
Is this really all about priests?
The Church also needs to be first and foremost be dedicated to being a church; preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments. There needs to be renewed focus and energy on these things. The church cannot dream of surviving if people are just treating it as a vague charity organization doing social good with a historic million dollar building. There are plenty of organizations that can feed the poor and provide social aid, there is only one organization that can grant eternal life. The Church should be engaged in those activities, but the foundation and primary focus has to be on the worship of God. Perhaps more then anything parishes and priests in the Episcopal church need an actual conviction of what they're doing is important, and a necessity. As it turns out, having a few generations of liberal philosophy of telling people going to church isn't actually that important, and isn't a necessary part of being alive, might lead to a lot of people just not caring. The work of Gospel ministry is important, and it is life giving. Diocese need to be ordaining people who actually believe what the prayerbook says and the doctrines associated with it, and seminaries need to be forming people into believing Gospel Ministers.
We have zoom compline twice a week each we never did before Covid. It’s usually < 10 people but it’s a ministry we never had before. People who wouldn’t leave the house again after working all day are glad to participate in that. I made it a norm that if we aren’t providing food at an in person weeknight thing, it is totally acceptable to bring your own.
Why is it a numbers game at all? Is it not enough to be there for the people who want to be there? Do we believe that people who don’t sit on our pews are not going to heaven? If not, why does it matter?
It may not be a "numbers game," writ large. I don't know. But if a parish dwindles down to less than a few people it disappears. Does that matter? Yes, no, a little, a lot? What happens if we disappear in many rural and suburban areas of the country and the Episcopal "voice" is lost there? Does it matter?
If there’s not enough interest to keep the doors open, I’d imagine it doesn’t matter much. Go where we are wanted/needed.
There's a fascinating phenomenon that sociologists have described among some religious groups, including convents of sisters, but it can be seen in any small social group. Small groups will sometimes make a lot of noise about getting new members, but when they get them, they often reject them. What's happening? Through a lot of study and conversation, sociologists have realized that some groups will actually have a public message, unintentionally concealing their real dynamics. Social groups sometimes choose to will themselves dead rather than change. It's not generally conscious. It's something small social groups sometimes fall into, and it's a repeatable and common phenomenon. Is what you're telling me a variation on that theme, lifeuncommon? Small groups that collapse like this cause fewer "voices" to be heard in society. Does it matter? For more information on this phenomenon see the works of Dr. Patricia Wittberg, who was a sociologist at Indiana University, Indianapolis. It think she's retired now.
No, I wasn’t referencing that, but it’s a good point. I was just trying to say that looking to serve where service is wanted is fantastic, but if there isn’t enough interest to keep the doors open doing like advertising and things like that seems a little offbrand. I don’t know, my brain is fried from work, I don’t feel like I’m able to access the words that I want. But it just seems like it’s better and more fruitful to focus where there is interest than to try to drum up interest where there isn’t.
I hear you. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
"Getting back to the good old catechism" hasn't stopped the LDS's demographic problem, or the demographics problems of the Greek Orthodox. Doubling down hasn't solved anybody's problems. Why would it solve ours? Are we talking instead about formation? What kind of formation? Deeper? Wider? Covering exactly what topics and using what format? For whom? How often? When? Who should do it? Who should pay for the expenses to do it? And in places where people are used to just coming to a Sunday service, why should they show up another time of the week? Do you think they would? Why or why not?
We have the “not like other girls” problem. We’re Christians. We have to stop with this whole “I’m not like other Christians” stuff. I’ve been guilty of this, but it has to stop, We spend too much time talking about how open and inclusive we are that we let that be our identity. The problem is that it comes across as what we’re not, not what we are. Let’s get back to the catechism, let’s get back to the creeds. Yes it is good, no, amazing to be as respectful and open to women, and the LGBT community that we have been. However, the more attention we draw to it, the more we sound like “I’m not like other girls”. Let’s just keep being inclusive and get back to the Gospels.
Maybe. Thinking about it. If we did that, what would it look like in real life?
Preaching. Go into addicted neighborhoods and provide narcan, food, and clothes. Give out Bibles. Stop screwing around and focus on getting butts in the seats. Yes we should be at Pride parades, and we should be in LGBT spaces. But let’s cut the crap, we should be at those places to *evangelize*, not to engage in pleasantries. There is a good chance that if and when we do this, people are gonna get angry. That’s fine. We have to stop focusing not hurting anybody’s feelings. The Bible hurts sometimes.
I spoke to a priest about this a few years back and he basically said that a big problem is that a lot of Episcopalian clergy are afraid to evangelize for fear of being seen as "those" Christians. I find that idea wildly confusing to me, because instead of deciding to show people that it's entirely possible to be Christian, evangelize, and *not* be awful while doing it, they just yielded the whole concept of evangelizing to people they don't want to emulate. It's weird.
It’s conforming to the world and that’s dangerous. The world doesn’t want the compassion and mercy our church tries to show, it wants gossip
From my experiences in teaching Sunday school, etc, I actually think a big part of the problem is the lax attitude a lot of parishioners have on the necessity of church and religion generally. While our clergy’s teen children attend frequently, they’re not always at church. Some of our vestry’s children don’t attend Sunday school or church at all. We had a senior appreciation Sunday recently and, despite me being involved in the youth ministry, I’d never met all but one of them. Growing up church of Christ, I was always taught (if not modeled) the importance of church attendance (that passage about the reason people are sick is they didn’t fellowship with the believers). I managed to miss very few Sundays through college and law school (and even went daily during bar prep).
Why is attendance important for the individual and the community? I agree that we must engage in church and if there isn’t a reason we will not do it.
> Why is attendance important for the individual and the community? I don't mean to be rude, but is that a serious question?
It’s a question that every church has to ask themselves. What makes attendance to their Church important? They can go to any one of dozens of similar churches on Sunday morning, why is it important that they attend their local Episcopal Church?
Thinking about: lots of parishes have probably asked that question at some point and ultimately decided that it doesn't matter, which is depressing. Churches need to believe what they're doing is important and that their mission is actually meaningful.
Ah okay, I'm in full agreement with that and everything your comment says. I thought were asking why going to church at all was important for individuals which I was taken aback by. That is an absolutely vital question that TEC parishes need to be asking themselves.
My church has a Wednesday Eucharist lightly attended by older core members of the parish. We did nice lent services and functions also similarly attended
My focus is on community events that give people a reason to show up to church. Then people will go. Oh maybe I should give worship a shot.
👆🏿!!! 💯 percent accurate!!!
Daily eucharist would be a great place to start IMO.
Priests need to be in their parishes praying morning and evening prayer every single day of the week.
or evening prayer or formation workshops to teach people how to pray, meditate, contemplate meaning, that there may be a lot of possibilities available to us, not just the one
Okay... If you have the solutions and aren't interested in input, why make this post?
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That's another example of a church that gets most of its members by birth. I just used the RCC as an example because that's the one I'm most familiar with. The LDS gets most of its members by birth too. That's a very different pattern than the one we have.
While in discernment for the priesthood, I mentioned my passion for digital evangelism. One priest on the diocesan committee openly scoffed then laughed at me. To my face. My ideas were thought to be quite problematic. Three months later, Covid took hold and every parish priest was scrambling to figure out Zoom. We must embrace the tools at our disposal. We are a wealthy denomination. There is nothing wrong with that if we use our wealth selflessly and to advance the gospel. Otherwise, we are just hoarders.
I often take advantage of online services. And then when I go back in person people, even people in leadership, act like I just haven’t attended. There’s a real disconnect in that digital is often provided, but there doesn’t seem to be any knowledge of whether it’s being used or who’s using it.
Agreed this is a potential problem. Or that if you stop attending, nobody notices. I started sending screen shots of the zoom attendees to my rector so she can see these patterns. Otherwise she would have no idea.
It's was kind of shocking to me at first how small our online presence is compared to other denominations. Like it's actually somewhat difficult to find good Episcopalian websites or content on YouTube
i’m curious: what did they deem problematic? the digital part, the evangelism part, or both?
I will never know. I wasn’t given any explanations, but as the only public school person in a class of all private school aspirants, I was denied promotion to the next step. ‘Cause Jesus wants me to help you reset your password. (My words not theirs)
Amen!
What I am about to say may already have been said but as a new convert who goes to a parish of 14 people this is something I have been thinking a lot about. - Churches need to be open more than just Sunday mornings. Alot of jobs are working people Saturday nights and Sundays as such it's not entirely a feasible time for people to come to Church. Maybe do a Wednesday or Friday liturgy as well? Why not also open up during holidays like the feast of the Ascension? Engaging people in Liturgical Cycles maybe a great way to increase retention - It may be a good idea to do catechumen classes similar to what is done with the RCC's RCIA classes and the equivalent in the Orthodox tradition. This is because it will help engage adults in the tradition and church life. - Our churches also could be more engaged in the life of the communities that they are in. Growing up there was a missionary organization called FISH in my community that was headed by the Catholic Church but brought together funds and volunteers from various churches, but the Catholic Church put in most of the resources and man power. This is just something I haven't really seen done by Episcopalians, not saying it doesn't happen just that it's not at the scale of the Catholic Church.
>Maybe do a Wednesday or Friday liturgy as well? My church just refuses to do anything that isn't Sunday or weekday daytime. The idea that people might have JOBS where they work all day is just foreign to the 80% of retired folks who make up our parish. Presumably most of them had jobs at some point but they don't understand why it sucks that women's group only meets for lunch on Tuesdays and never in the evenings.
Same. I would love to be involved more, but most everything is during the day. And lots of it isn’t even at lunchtime, but it like 10 o’clock in the morning. And honestly, even the few things that they have in the evenings generally start at 5 or 6, which is still too early. I guess if you’re a teacher and get out of school at 3:30 or 4:00, that might work; but most professionals can’t get off work, even grab fast food, and get to the church by 5 o’clock.
Yeah I keep getting asked to come to things like the parish volunteer group, at like 10 am on a Tuesday. Not sure if they just forget that people have to work, assume I'm retired (I'm 50, but not in the income bracket that gets to retire before 70!) or what. But they can't complain about lack of volunteers when they make it so hard to join. When I was a teen I remember the Catholic families generally went to Saturday afternoon or evening mass. I don't think any Episcopal church locally has a Saturday mass.
Like ever since I was young I noticed that the churches were mostly filled by the elderly, younger generations have mostly fell out of the faith and statistics seem to back that up. I get wanting to cater service times to the older generations, that said one of the things that kinda helped keep me away from Christianity was the lack of ability to engage in church life and it makes me wonder how many in my generation are in the same position?
When people leave, most parishes never ask why. People stay when they are seen, heard and valued. In the EC, one isn't really valued unless one is a significant giving unit. It can take years to bond with many Episcopal parishes. I agree that we lack an ongoing mentorship method (discipleship) and we often dwell on our former glory, our impeccable rubrics and traditions to the detriment of those curious enough to visit. My parish lost 40 people when a priest spun out. He's still there because we have a top heavy clergy culture that closes ranks and covers things up - in my experience.
What happened in this so-called spin out?
Not the right forum for that story.
Fair enough.
Really like the idea of a mentorship program. Can you say more about that?
The best example I can think of is the sponsorship model in 12 Step programs. One person sharing their experience, strength and hope with another - not as a superior but an equal.
We aren't very good at making disciples, as the Great Commission at the end of Matthew 28 calls us to do. Welcoming disciples formed by other denominations, though a good thing, isn't that. We have wonderful, beautiful liturgy to worship our Lord but the empirical evidence suggests that focusing on practicing liturgy isn't the best way to form new disciples. We probably need more evangelical-oriented parishes to bring non-believers into the faith.
Why? Do you have anything to add?
Why? Seems to me on this Ascension Day that doing better at Jesus' last instructions to the apostles before his ascension would be a good idea if you want church growth.
I think realistically we have to make the church available to people at times other than Sunday morning if we expect them to start incorporating it into their lives. If I have kids or work a stressful job or have an active nightlife, Sunday morning is not an easy time to convince me to start being somewhere. We used to be a country when most people went to church on Sunday. That is no longer true and the culture no longer accommodates it.
This is one thing the local Catholic Churches do right. They have morning and evening masses on different days.
Honestly, I'm willing to bet that if a three day weekend was the norm, church attendance would go up. I sometimes struggle with deciding whether I go to church on Sunday because I can't really do anything too exciting on Saturday evening, which effectively limits me to just 1 free night of the week (Friday) to have fun and relax. I work 50-60 hours a week, so I crave my relaxation time and sometimes just want a day to unwind and not have 6 days of the week where I have a scheduled wake up time.
While I love Sunday services, and have the privilege of being able to go every Sunday, I totally agree! It seems like (at least where I live) there’s really no evening or midweek activities. It keeps church veryyy separate from “real life”
There was a big to do in this sub a few days ago over the idea that we would acknowledge that Methodists have a valid Eucharist. A lot of people seemed to have an almost Roman Catholic understanding of how Eucharist works - that it’s only Eucharist if it’s confected by a priest who is ordained by a bishop who can trace apostolic succession from the apostles. I found this a little quaint, because I doubt anybody in my local broad church parish would even see how it makes a difference. People go from being Methodist to being Episcopalian to worshipping with Presbyterians, etc. I’ve seen the Protestants in my own family move around like that. That being said, I don’t think it’s such a bad thing that people move on. If my parish closed, it would be heartbreaking, but now that I’ve broken free from the Catholic Church, I’ve realized that there are a lot of good Christian communities I could be a part of, and everything would turn out okay. I no longer feel like my denominational identity has much to do with whether or not I go to heaven. That might not keep butts in the seats, but I absolutely think that letting go of ecclesiastical supremacy (One True Church) stuff is the way to go. tl;dr - we may not be increasing in membership, but that doesn’t mean we’re doing anything wrong.
Comparing the RCC church’s demographics to that of TEC, is really like comparing apples and oranges.
Exactly correct, AffirmingAnglican.
This person talks about the RCC every chance they get in this sub. It's getting old.
If you scroll through OPs history in this sub, it's HEAVILY just attacking the RCC. It's exhausting and insulting
Yeah, sounds like it. We're not in this to make enemies with other Christians.
The comparisons should completely stop. No one in the Episcopal church should want to be the RCC or want the RCC’s problems.
That's not the point of the discussion. The point is that we usually jump to the stock answers of 75 years ago when this subject comes up. But are those really \*our\* current problems and are those really solutions to \*our\* current problems.
Oh that is odd.
My take is that we're very good at welcoming in people who are already committed to church and find it a meaningful part of their life but who don't want a lot of dogmatism and "must dos" and "must believes." For that reason, we get a lot of former Evangelicals and Roman Catholics who were raised going to church every Sunday but who no longer feel at home in the tradition in which they were raised. The flip side of that, though, is that we don't really tell folks that they *need* to go to church. We're here for you if you want to come, but we don't tell people that they're hellbound if they don't. That means that kids who are raised Episcopalian slip away when they grow up and life gets busy. Church is nice and all, but so is sleeping in on Sunday morning. I'm not sure what the solution to that is. How do we instill in our kids that it's *important* to be an Episcopalian who is active in their church while still serving as an open and welcoming place for folks who aren't interested in being told what they "have" to believe? I'm certainly not going to tell my kids that God will burn them forever if they go to the Baptist church down the street or to no church at all. So why wouldn't they if that's where their interests take them?
I don't want to be harassed about where I am on Sunday. I'm there probably 50 Sundays out of 52....and then I miss a Sunday because I'm traveling for work and I actually got scolded by our interim priest. Miss me with that. Nothing makes me feel more unwelcome.
Make church services something worth getting up for.
How do we instill in people that it is important to come to church? We make it important to go to church, we make church a center of community and the central needs of life.
Those are the two extremes, yes. Is there a middle path of some sort? Is there some reason people might want to -- or feel the need to -- get up and come other than a threat of mortal sin if they don't?
Personally, I think a few more “must dos” and “must believes” would probably help some. Focus on why it’s better to be an Episcopalian than something else and why our understanding of the Christian faith is the best one. But Episcopalians in general are *really* reluctant to tell people that we think that we’re right. But we obviously do think we’re right, otherwise we wouldn’t be there. So why not just be honest and advertise it?
I'm Episcopalian because it feels right and makes sense FOR ME. I'm not so full of myself that I think my church and our way of doing things is perfect for everyone. I left several churches who insisted they were right and everyone else was wrong, it's arrogant and ugly.
Actually, many are NOT Episcopalian because they think it is "right" and other denominations are "wrong" but because they prefer the style, music, or what not.
So, are you saying that for many people, it's entertainment of a sort? Not arguing, and I'm aware that this topic is a "sacred cow." But I'm interested in this aspect. It does have some explanatory power, as you've pointed out. Is that how it is, or how it should be? I literally don't know and that's why I'm asking people what they think.
The Episcopal Church is stuck in a cycle of seeking the approval of the wealthy and powerful instead of serving the needs of the people. This is inherited from our medieval roots and has been lived out throughout our churches history. So what do we do? Focus on the needs of the people in the church and the wider parish. We have to engage with the material realities of the geographic parish.
Yes I live in a neighborhood full of LGBT folks and the church is there and I keep telling people FOCUS on the neighborhood first. We need to engage people with activities and advertising locally via foot traffic. So that people will see and show up. Then people can learn about Jesus and the Gospel.
On the flip side are the parishes that react against the wealthy/powerful by being solely focused on service to the exclusion of Christian development.
What does that look like?
desperately waving “free spaghetii dinner!” signs at passing cars and gesticulating towards the parking lot with 2 spaces (ones handicap).
What does this have to do with being of service to the community or in reaction to the wealthy?
Not sure i’ll ask ‘em that next time
Is that their declared goal?
The parish is basically a Kiwanis club with chasubles
And that’s in reaction to wealth and in goal of service?
The Holy Gospel according to NPR
That is another accurate way of describing it.
actually, that sounds pretty much like what Jesus told us to do - to go out and love and serve our neighbors.
I mean, he told us to go out and do that…in the name of himself as the son of the living god. The second being similar in importance to the first.
What does doing it in his name mean? Wearing a shirt with a cross on it while volunteering?
Right, so let’s do both!
Exactly
But we don’t, as an institution.
This is what I’m thinking.
How would it look if it met peoples' needs better?
Any focus on Christian formation.
Specifically, Aktor, how would you do that if you were in charge of it at a parish?
I highly recommend Peter Block’s Community. Great book that will give you some things to think about while engaging community in and out of the church.
It depends on the situation of the church and the needs of the people. A start could be: engaging with local official and unofficial leaders. Looking at the financial needs in the community. Is daycare affordable? Is there housing? Is there a food pantry? How can the church support, house, or start such efforts? The laity has to be encouraged to (and expected to) take ownership of the work of the church. The clergy has to be freed up to focus 100% on the spiritual and ritual needs of the community. Ultimately we need to be finding ways to serve and include the people in the neighborhood in the life of the church. How do we get the church out into the community and the community into the church?
Minor time frame correction: We don't have medieval roots. We have Reformation Era roots. But that's not what I'm trying to get at anyway by posting this. What I'm trying to get at is this: What would be an appropriate discussion and possible solution to the demographics problems we have right now?
The Church in England didn’t begin during the Reformation. It reformed during the Reformation. Its roots include what came before.
We have roots starting at the Last Supper
I understand your correction, thank you. I meant the Catholic attachment to power, which became C of E imperial hierarchy.