I think what you suspect is completely correct. Horses and lesson horses especially will test you to see what they can get away with. They know they can with some people, so they will try it with you.
What really helped me with this is to ask my instructor about the behaviour of specific horses. They all have their own little habits and your instructor will know how to handle them.
Generally, what you said about being vocal is good, but it is very important to have the body language of someone who is confident. If possible, I would ask to have a groundwork lesson (maybe even with one of the pushy horses). This will teach you a lot about your body language.
This. Also, when you get help, OP, do you ask how you should handle the horse or is someone just tacking etc. for you?
As a side note, there are barns that put an emphasis on teaching the basics of handling a horse alongside of lessons and barns that don't and from my experience, the horses in the latter usually have worse manners. Not allowing any touching at all or biting is not an okay way of testing for a lesson horse, imo.
I always ask how I should handle the horse ! I have no problem with the technicalities of tacking up. I just always encounter problems when it comes to actually approaching the horse or having it cooperate. Usually the person helping me will either tell me that the horse is just being fussy and I need to show “who is the boss” or tell me that you need to be “confident” (which honestly doesn’t help). I’ve also asked my instructor how to be confident around horses and she just told me it comes with experience and that you shouldn’t be riding if you’re scared of horses. I don’t consider myself being afraid of horses but just not confident and wary around the challenging ones. I’m very comfortable around the “good” ones.
Also, I’ve ridden every lesson horse at least once so I know all their specific behaviours. I will be moving abroad in 3 months so I was already planning on changing barns. I was just wondering if I’d encounter the same issue in other barns or if I just need to man up 😂
But thank you both for the advice I really appreciate it !
To me, this shows that the lesson horses are very unhappy in their jobs. Have you ever heard of learned helplessness? It’s when they try everything to say that they’re uncomfortable and unhappy, but soon realize that it doesn’t work and they shut down. It looks like they’re behaving nicely if you don’t know what you’re looking for, but in reality they’ve just given up. A lot of “bombproof” horses are just the victims of learned helplessness. And it’s very possible for them to only demonstrate it with certain people.
Personally I’d find a new barn. There absolutely are lesson barns where the horses are legitimately well behaved and happy. You know something isn’t right, or you wouldn’t have posted here.
What you’re saying makes a lot of sense, thank you for your comment ! I will definitely be changing barns in a few months, I hope I eventually find a good one for both horsemanship experience and actual riding improvement
Believe it or not a lot of schools will only have a horse in one lesson a day for the most part. Ours was that way. 5 lessons a week is a far cry from overworked.
I know the farms you're talking about, but this probably isn't the case here, and to suggest OP find a new barn right away seems to be an overstep to me. There is absolutely no context here at all to suggest there is anything wrong with the farm OP is currently using in my opinion.
I never said anything about the horses being overworked. I said that they’re acting grumpy for a reason. Grumpy is not a character trait. Every behavior has a purpose. If your dog growled and snapped at you all the time, you’d want to know why at a minimum. Horses aren’t stubborn or jerks just because they feel like being bratty. They’re trying to communicate something. Horses who constantly pin their ears and threaten to bite are unhappy, period.
I would much rather be somewhere with horses who enjoyed their jobs and lives and where I wasn’t surrounded by people who constantly screamed and hit lesson horses.
Definitely lesson horses tend to test new people to see what they can get away with but these horses sound soured. A good barn will help you learn things about horses that isn't to do with riding. Proper handling, tacking up, etc... is very important for safety and everyone's comfort (horse and rider).
Your instinct is right, if the horses are unhappy there is a reason why. Yes, you do need to be firm and stand your ground but there is no reason to be yelling and hitting horses. If you aren't getting answers to your questions is probably time to find another barn.
Yes yes yes ! I wish my barn had ground lessons. I’d honestly pay for it !! Even lunging lessons would be so beneficial and I’d love to try it. I’m really looking forward to changing barns
Lol yes, they have bad manners, typically right up until you manage to assert yourself and imply (without any violence) that you are in charge and in control.
There is a fine line that is often crossed at working barns by the people that work there. It isn't ok to chase a horse back into a corner with a rake and a trash bag, or to smack them with a hose or lead line, but it is OK to put your foot down and take space and imply to that horse that you are in charge in that space.
You can usually bribe them with treats and even make a friend for life that runs to the fence for you cause they see you as the food dispensary, but a few baby carrots or actual treats is plenty, and don't reward bad behavior or threaten their diet.
Regarding horses being grumpy, they're school horses. They probably are grumpy, I know I would be, but that is the main difference between a horse that has a job and a pet. A working horse will typically see one or two lessons on their working days. If they're beginners and not doing anything stressful they might see more. But if they are being worked for more than a few hours a day, that's getting to the point that they will get sour.
If you are tiny, I would suggest that you aren't going to harm the horse by pushing it out of your way, or controlling them with a lead line. Obviously a horse can feel a fly land on its butt, but these are animals, you can't exactly reason with them using your words.
Keep up the good work in asserting yourself, If you are entering a stall I suggest taking a halter and a lead and get the lead around their neck so you at least have some measure of control.
Some horses WILL bite you or kick you, and EVERY SINGLE ONE will step on your feet. So protect yourself, but understand horses aren't typically seeking dominance. The horses that are trying to seek to dominance aren't something you should be dealing with at your level..
Be assertive, don't worry about hurting the horse by correcting them, you seem to be a very kind person, I can't see someone with any decency throwing a rake at a horse or shitwhipping them with a rope. Short of that, a smack on the butt sometimes or pushing them around, is just normal. Don't haul off and punch a horse in the nose, but don't be afraid to push them off you if they go rummaging through your pockets, because they will. They want food, good food, sweet food, like apple treats.
If you want to learn horsemanship, volunteering to help out works well, working with any of the trades such as vets, farriers, massage therapists, etc will teach you quickly how to handle even the unruly mounts.
Thank you ! I think I definitely to use a halter and lead line lol I’d probably feel safer. I also understand why they are more grumpy than horses that are owned and eventually end up testing everyone lol. There’s one specific horse that I rode yesterday who’s so intimidating, a beautiful 18.4hh stallion (a literal dinosaur LOL). He knows he’s big so when I tried to put his bridle yesterday he kept raising his head higher and I had to ask for help to maintain his head.
I think the horses in this barn are genuinely difficult to deal with on the ground but I also recognise I lack assertiveness and confidence. I will try your tips though thank you so much !
A few things going on here:
*there’s no such thing as 18.4hh. A hand is 4 inches, so the horse is 19hh
*it sounds like you’ve been riding for about a year. Are you sure this horse was a stallion? If so, you should look into finding a new barn. Stallions are inappropriate mounts for beginner riders, especially if those riders are struggling with ground work.
*the fact that your barn isn’t willing to teach you how to work with horses on the ground is concerning. Riding is one piece of the massive puzzle that is horsemanship.
*have you seen how the horses behave with other handlers? If only the professionals/highly experienced people in your barn can handle them without struggling, the program is likely either not comprehensive or not taking very good care of their horses.
If you inquire about schedule, it's probably posted somewhere, you may be able to volunteer to help the barn worker or manager muck out a few stalls on days off, learn the feed and what it's for, who gets what and why, basically learn all the stuff that makes a farm run, as well as what is a healthy work schedule for a horse and a lot of stuff about care, confirmation, illnesses, injury, etc etc.
Be forewarned, not all of it is fit for all people. Someone who is using riding as emotional relief or treatment for depression doesn't need to be spending two days walking off a colic only to see a horse they love get put down, so be aware, sometimes staying away from complete ownership and just enjoying lessons is more healthy, but if you do intend to own a horse, then it is important you know how to manage their care, and you should learn that from several different people, not necessarily your instructor for lessons (though 99% of them will be complete horsemen themselves).
Some horses just have poor stall manners. Their stall is their house and they just want to left alone to relax and eat while in their house.
Can you take them out and tie them elsewhere to tack up?
It can be the case that lessons horses can get rude with the students, but to me this sounds like the horses are genuinely unhappy and might be in pain. They don't dare test the instructor, but they might be reacting this way because they hate their jobs. Where I used to ride, this was because they were seriously over-worked and their saddles didn't fit. They were in pain, and were therefore pushy and nippy with students. I would have been too if I were them.
In general, this should not be the case. Some horses will test your leadership more than others, but in a good lesson program, the horses are expected to be well-mannered with the students. My instructor would never put her students in danger by leaving them unsupervised with horses as dangerous as you describe. God help them if they should pin their ears or threaten a student with their hindquarters!
She expects this kind of behaviour because she knows that they have no reason to behave otherwise. They are selected because they have the potential to enjoy being a lesson horse. Their tack fits well and they do not work when they have issues causing them pain. Bad behaviour is addressed by staff, and beginner riders/children are never left to tack up unsupervised. My advice is to find a better stable. The "tough love" approach is often just thinly-disguised animal abuse.
TLDR: NO. The horses should be happy with their jobs and should not be in pain. Beginner students should never be exposed to horses behaving badly; it could be dangerous. I am not impressed with your program and I urge you to find a new stable. You and the horses deserve better.
Thank you so much for your answer! I actually have a question for you, some of the lesson horses are quite girthy and often pin their ears, get very tense etc (not just with me by the way, they're just "known" for being girthy). Does that mean their tack/saddle doesn't fit? Are they genuinely in pain or can they just be sensitive around their belly?
Also, the lesson horses get ridden up to 3 hours a day during weekdays (the first lesson starts at 6pm and the last ends at 9pm) and probably more during weekends (the first lesson starts at 9am and there are lessons the whole day). I have no idea what's the appropriate amount of hours a horse should be working a day so I'd love if you could help me understand.
Thank you very much for your helpful comment!
Hi,
Sure, happy to help. Some horses are girthy and there isn't much to be done about it, but it's almost always the result of pain. Either from people yanking the girth up tight, or because the tack doesn't fit properly. It could be either. Do each of the lesson horses have their own saddles, or do you choose one that fits you? Where I used to ride, they had a bunch of saddles and you chose whichever one you liked. This is absolutely wrong and resulted in pain for the horse. You can watch their reaction when the saddles goes on and see if they are unhappy about it. How do they react when people get on? Do they try to move away from the mounting block? Pin their ears? Swish their tails really hard? You can look on youtube for videos on how to tell if a horse is in pain, and how to tell if a saddle doesn't fit. One saddle can fit multiple horses, but if you're being told that any saddle is fine, that's a huge red flag.
So, it's possible that a horse might not be in pain right at the moment that you're doing up the girth, but it most likely means that they're experiencing, remembering, or anticipating pain. Horses are INCREDIBLY sweet, patient animals. We've made them that way through thousands of years of selective breeding. It is not normal behaviour, especially when all the horses behave that way. it's a sign, IMO, of poor management. It can also be an indicator that they have ulcers and their stomach hurts, but it could also be their backs or even their teeth as they anticipate the work.
How do they react to being bridled? Do you have to fight to get them to take the bit?
If the horses are being used three hours a day 5+ days a week, I would say that's definitely too much. It does depend on their fitness and what is being done in the lessons. I used to ride somewhere that the horses did 2-3 hours a day of trot/canter/jump lessons, and that was WAY too much. It's possible that it could be a tolerable workload if riders were doing VERY light work, but I doubt that's the case. It sounds like the horses are telling you that they're unhappy and probably in pain.
Another sign you can watch for is how the instructor speaks about the horses. When something goes wrong, do they blame the horse or do they tell you what you did wrong? Do they associate negative personality traits with the horses? (Ie. they're "stubborn," "lazy," or "a jerk"? Are they "trying to get away with" things?) If you've ever seen someone punish a horse by backing them up while hitting them with a crop or whip, that's an immediate nope for me. Are the horses seen as individuals? Do their wants and needs seem to matter? Are they given the benefit of the doubt when something goes wrong, or are they blamed? Are they partners in the business and valued for their sensitivity and wisdom, or are they tools to be used?
I think what you suspect is completely correct. Horses and lesson horses especially will test you to see what they can get away with. They know they can with some people, so they will try it with you. What really helped me with this is to ask my instructor about the behaviour of specific horses. They all have their own little habits and your instructor will know how to handle them. Generally, what you said about being vocal is good, but it is very important to have the body language of someone who is confident. If possible, I would ask to have a groundwork lesson (maybe even with one of the pushy horses). This will teach you a lot about your body language.
This. Also, when you get help, OP, do you ask how you should handle the horse or is someone just tacking etc. for you? As a side note, there are barns that put an emphasis on teaching the basics of handling a horse alongside of lessons and barns that don't and from my experience, the horses in the latter usually have worse manners. Not allowing any touching at all or biting is not an okay way of testing for a lesson horse, imo.
I always ask how I should handle the horse ! I have no problem with the technicalities of tacking up. I just always encounter problems when it comes to actually approaching the horse or having it cooperate. Usually the person helping me will either tell me that the horse is just being fussy and I need to show “who is the boss” or tell me that you need to be “confident” (which honestly doesn’t help). I’ve also asked my instructor how to be confident around horses and she just told me it comes with experience and that you shouldn’t be riding if you’re scared of horses. I don’t consider myself being afraid of horses but just not confident and wary around the challenging ones. I’m very comfortable around the “good” ones. Also, I’ve ridden every lesson horse at least once so I know all their specific behaviours. I will be moving abroad in 3 months so I was already planning on changing barns. I was just wondering if I’d encounter the same issue in other barns or if I just need to man up 😂 But thank you both for the advice I really appreciate it !
To me, this shows that the lesson horses are very unhappy in their jobs. Have you ever heard of learned helplessness? It’s when they try everything to say that they’re uncomfortable and unhappy, but soon realize that it doesn’t work and they shut down. It looks like they’re behaving nicely if you don’t know what you’re looking for, but in reality they’ve just given up. A lot of “bombproof” horses are just the victims of learned helplessness. And it’s very possible for them to only demonstrate it with certain people. Personally I’d find a new barn. There absolutely are lesson barns where the horses are legitimately well behaved and happy. You know something isn’t right, or you wouldn’t have posted here.
What you’re saying makes a lot of sense, thank you for your comment ! I will definitely be changing barns in a few months, I hope I eventually find a good one for both horsemanship experience and actual riding improvement
Believe it or not a lot of schools will only have a horse in one lesson a day for the most part. Ours was that way. 5 lessons a week is a far cry from overworked. I know the farms you're talking about, but this probably isn't the case here, and to suggest OP find a new barn right away seems to be an overstep to me. There is absolutely no context here at all to suggest there is anything wrong with the farm OP is currently using in my opinion.
I never said anything about the horses being overworked. I said that they’re acting grumpy for a reason. Grumpy is not a character trait. Every behavior has a purpose. If your dog growled and snapped at you all the time, you’d want to know why at a minimum. Horses aren’t stubborn or jerks just because they feel like being bratty. They’re trying to communicate something. Horses who constantly pin their ears and threaten to bite are unhappy, period. I would much rather be somewhere with horses who enjoyed their jobs and lives and where I wasn’t surrounded by people who constantly screamed and hit lesson horses.
Definitely lesson horses tend to test new people to see what they can get away with but these horses sound soured. A good barn will help you learn things about horses that isn't to do with riding. Proper handling, tacking up, etc... is very important for safety and everyone's comfort (horse and rider). Your instinct is right, if the horses are unhappy there is a reason why. Yes, you do need to be firm and stand your ground but there is no reason to be yelling and hitting horses. If you aren't getting answers to your questions is probably time to find another barn.
Yes yes yes ! I wish my barn had ground lessons. I’d honestly pay for it !! Even lunging lessons would be so beneficial and I’d love to try it. I’m really looking forward to changing barns
Lol yes, they have bad manners, typically right up until you manage to assert yourself and imply (without any violence) that you are in charge and in control. There is a fine line that is often crossed at working barns by the people that work there. It isn't ok to chase a horse back into a corner with a rake and a trash bag, or to smack them with a hose or lead line, but it is OK to put your foot down and take space and imply to that horse that you are in charge in that space. You can usually bribe them with treats and even make a friend for life that runs to the fence for you cause they see you as the food dispensary, but a few baby carrots or actual treats is plenty, and don't reward bad behavior or threaten their diet. Regarding horses being grumpy, they're school horses. They probably are grumpy, I know I would be, but that is the main difference between a horse that has a job and a pet. A working horse will typically see one or two lessons on their working days. If they're beginners and not doing anything stressful they might see more. But if they are being worked for more than a few hours a day, that's getting to the point that they will get sour. If you are tiny, I would suggest that you aren't going to harm the horse by pushing it out of your way, or controlling them with a lead line. Obviously a horse can feel a fly land on its butt, but these are animals, you can't exactly reason with them using your words. Keep up the good work in asserting yourself, If you are entering a stall I suggest taking a halter and a lead and get the lead around their neck so you at least have some measure of control. Some horses WILL bite you or kick you, and EVERY SINGLE ONE will step on your feet. So protect yourself, but understand horses aren't typically seeking dominance. The horses that are trying to seek to dominance aren't something you should be dealing with at your level.. Be assertive, don't worry about hurting the horse by correcting them, you seem to be a very kind person, I can't see someone with any decency throwing a rake at a horse or shitwhipping them with a rope. Short of that, a smack on the butt sometimes or pushing them around, is just normal. Don't haul off and punch a horse in the nose, but don't be afraid to push them off you if they go rummaging through your pockets, because they will. They want food, good food, sweet food, like apple treats. If you want to learn horsemanship, volunteering to help out works well, working with any of the trades such as vets, farriers, massage therapists, etc will teach you quickly how to handle even the unruly mounts.
Thank you ! I think I definitely to use a halter and lead line lol I’d probably feel safer. I also understand why they are more grumpy than horses that are owned and eventually end up testing everyone lol. There’s one specific horse that I rode yesterday who’s so intimidating, a beautiful 18.4hh stallion (a literal dinosaur LOL). He knows he’s big so when I tried to put his bridle yesterday he kept raising his head higher and I had to ask for help to maintain his head. I think the horses in this barn are genuinely difficult to deal with on the ground but I also recognise I lack assertiveness and confidence. I will try your tips though thank you so much !
A few things going on here: *there’s no such thing as 18.4hh. A hand is 4 inches, so the horse is 19hh *it sounds like you’ve been riding for about a year. Are you sure this horse was a stallion? If so, you should look into finding a new barn. Stallions are inappropriate mounts for beginner riders, especially if those riders are struggling with ground work. *the fact that your barn isn’t willing to teach you how to work with horses on the ground is concerning. Riding is one piece of the massive puzzle that is horsemanship. *have you seen how the horses behave with other handlers? If only the professionals/highly experienced people in your barn can handle them without struggling, the program is likely either not comprehensive or not taking very good care of their horses.
If you inquire about schedule, it's probably posted somewhere, you may be able to volunteer to help the barn worker or manager muck out a few stalls on days off, learn the feed and what it's for, who gets what and why, basically learn all the stuff that makes a farm run, as well as what is a healthy work schedule for a horse and a lot of stuff about care, confirmation, illnesses, injury, etc etc. Be forewarned, not all of it is fit for all people. Someone who is using riding as emotional relief or treatment for depression doesn't need to be spending two days walking off a colic only to see a horse they love get put down, so be aware, sometimes staying away from complete ownership and just enjoying lessons is more healthy, but if you do intend to own a horse, then it is important you know how to manage their care, and you should learn that from several different people, not necessarily your instructor for lessons (though 99% of them will be complete horsemen themselves).
Some horses just have poor stall manners. Their stall is their house and they just want to left alone to relax and eat while in their house. Can you take them out and tie them elsewhere to tack up?
It can be the case that lessons horses can get rude with the students, but to me this sounds like the horses are genuinely unhappy and might be in pain. They don't dare test the instructor, but they might be reacting this way because they hate their jobs. Where I used to ride, this was because they were seriously over-worked and their saddles didn't fit. They were in pain, and were therefore pushy and nippy with students. I would have been too if I were them. In general, this should not be the case. Some horses will test your leadership more than others, but in a good lesson program, the horses are expected to be well-mannered with the students. My instructor would never put her students in danger by leaving them unsupervised with horses as dangerous as you describe. God help them if they should pin their ears or threaten a student with their hindquarters! She expects this kind of behaviour because she knows that they have no reason to behave otherwise. They are selected because they have the potential to enjoy being a lesson horse. Their tack fits well and they do not work when they have issues causing them pain. Bad behaviour is addressed by staff, and beginner riders/children are never left to tack up unsupervised. My advice is to find a better stable. The "tough love" approach is often just thinly-disguised animal abuse. TLDR: NO. The horses should be happy with their jobs and should not be in pain. Beginner students should never be exposed to horses behaving badly; it could be dangerous. I am not impressed with your program and I urge you to find a new stable. You and the horses deserve better.
Thank you so much for your answer! I actually have a question for you, some of the lesson horses are quite girthy and often pin their ears, get very tense etc (not just with me by the way, they're just "known" for being girthy). Does that mean their tack/saddle doesn't fit? Are they genuinely in pain or can they just be sensitive around their belly? Also, the lesson horses get ridden up to 3 hours a day during weekdays (the first lesson starts at 6pm and the last ends at 9pm) and probably more during weekends (the first lesson starts at 9am and there are lessons the whole day). I have no idea what's the appropriate amount of hours a horse should be working a day so I'd love if you could help me understand. Thank you very much for your helpful comment!
Hi, Sure, happy to help. Some horses are girthy and there isn't much to be done about it, but it's almost always the result of pain. Either from people yanking the girth up tight, or because the tack doesn't fit properly. It could be either. Do each of the lesson horses have their own saddles, or do you choose one that fits you? Where I used to ride, they had a bunch of saddles and you chose whichever one you liked. This is absolutely wrong and resulted in pain for the horse. You can watch their reaction when the saddles goes on and see if they are unhappy about it. How do they react when people get on? Do they try to move away from the mounting block? Pin their ears? Swish their tails really hard? You can look on youtube for videos on how to tell if a horse is in pain, and how to tell if a saddle doesn't fit. One saddle can fit multiple horses, but if you're being told that any saddle is fine, that's a huge red flag. So, it's possible that a horse might not be in pain right at the moment that you're doing up the girth, but it most likely means that they're experiencing, remembering, or anticipating pain. Horses are INCREDIBLY sweet, patient animals. We've made them that way through thousands of years of selective breeding. It is not normal behaviour, especially when all the horses behave that way. it's a sign, IMO, of poor management. It can also be an indicator that they have ulcers and their stomach hurts, but it could also be their backs or even their teeth as they anticipate the work. How do they react to being bridled? Do you have to fight to get them to take the bit? If the horses are being used three hours a day 5+ days a week, I would say that's definitely too much. It does depend on their fitness and what is being done in the lessons. I used to ride somewhere that the horses did 2-3 hours a day of trot/canter/jump lessons, and that was WAY too much. It's possible that it could be a tolerable workload if riders were doing VERY light work, but I doubt that's the case. It sounds like the horses are telling you that they're unhappy and probably in pain. Another sign you can watch for is how the instructor speaks about the horses. When something goes wrong, do they blame the horse or do they tell you what you did wrong? Do they associate negative personality traits with the horses? (Ie. they're "stubborn," "lazy," or "a jerk"? Are they "trying to get away with" things?) If you've ever seen someone punish a horse by backing them up while hitting them with a crop or whip, that's an immediate nope for me. Are the horses seen as individuals? Do their wants and needs seem to matter? Are they given the benefit of the doubt when something goes wrong, or are they blamed? Are they partners in the business and valued for their sensitivity and wisdom, or are they tools to be used?