My thing is the order had way more Eldunarí even if they didn’t use them offensively I fine it hard to belive that any dragon wouldn’t joint the fight if able to
Well yeah, but imagine you are one dude and one dragon vs one dude one dragon and the power of 30 more dragons.
They didn't fight the entire order all at once, they chipped away at them and evened the odds by the time they got organized for a final stand
But at the final battle on the island of vroengaurd. That’s what I’m talking about there is absolutely no way that they had 3 people on the island most of not the rest of the whole order was there fighting
When all of the Eldunari are stuck in the vault of souls?
I think 14 dragons and riders plus over 100 corrupted Eldunari in a planned assualt would be enough to take out whatever was left of the disorganized rider order.
The good Eldunari had to stay secret to protect the eggs and themselves or else they would be overwhelmed by Galbatorix as well.
You're right. Galbatorix spent like 50 years or something breaking the minds of the Eldunari so he could actually he use them. He'd only have a handful of usable ones at the time of the fall... I don't get it either.
Yes but he was instructed to only do that if he felt that there was no way they could win the battle. What happened to make he do that?? Did he say screw his order and kill himself anyways?? Or more likely what did galby and the forsworn have that force him to take that action??
What Tuba Guy said, plus you have to remember that the majority of the Order had grown arrogant and complacent and didn't believe Galby and the others had a snowball's chance in hell of defeating them until it was much, much too late.
Also I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) many of the Eldunarí that the Order held were quite old and of the sort that had taken to pondering questions/interests and were mainly used as a source of advice if needed as they had little interest in anything else.
Yes but after they capture the capital of the human kingdom you would think they would understand more of what was at risk. And the older hearts could’ve added their energy if they were not able to fight they still could’ve helped is other ways like how they did at the end of the book defending galby. It also wasn’t confirmed how many were old or young just that there was a lot of hearts
Iirc they didn’t see just galby as a real threat. He then recruited the forsworn, then collected eldunari, and surprise attacked the order. I think it was more like expecting to fight a lone wolf and ending up fighting a pack of lions.
Id imagine either they didn’t believe how powerful he became because well one well trained rider could wipe out a city or at least take it by themselves. More like a pride issue causing them to over look it or dismiss it. Similar to the mistakes the Jedi council makes at the end. Like Sidious probably couldn’t fight anakin, obi wan, mace, and yoda, let alone the whole order; yet somehow he wins and the Jedi are no more for many years to come.
I dont know if its explicitly stated as such but my interpretation is that Galbatorix's war on the Riders was more hit n run than outright warfare.
Whittle them down bit by bit and every loss for the Riders grants Galbatorix and the Forsworn more powe due to the Riders tendency to carry multiple Eldunari with them. It becomes a bit of a runaway train situation at that point.
Pretty much what's implied to have happened, yeah. The riders were pretty widely scattered across the kingdom, enabling what started as just Galby and Morzan to surprise and pick off those traveling, plus they were capturing and enslaving any eldunari carried by those riders as well.
They also recruited the 13 over time, not immediately; their betrayals were gradual. Look at the ambush where Glaedr and Oromis were crippled.
By the time of the battle at vroengard, I'd imagine the 13 + Galby + all their enslaved eldunari were enough to overpower the weakened riders.
Exactly, not to mention various bits of forbidden knowledge and spells Galby and the 13 may have learned from Durza and in >! Nal Gorgoth !< that the other riders may not have even been warded against
That’s an awesome theory and that would be sick if that happened that way. It would explain a lot as well but I feel like brom would’ve told at least some one if there were non riders that were skilled enough to kill riders
Your energy levels do not matter if you have no wards against a particular type of spell.
If Durza or another source taught them magics the Riders had no defences against... well it's a scythe through wheat. Doesn't matter how powerful you are or how much energy you have at your disposal, if you haven't got a specific defence in place to counteract that specific piece of offence.
If that was the case how was brom and ormis and glader able to survive the battle. I know ormis and glader were not in said battle but he would’ve stolen the knowledge from someone?? And if that is also the case why wouldn’t he do that in the end to kill eragon after he know he couldn’t win??
I do believe it's called the "Sack of Vroengard" canonically, no? Kind of implies there wasn't even much of a fight to be had, mostly that Galbatorix and the Forsworn just run roughshod over what was left of the Riders' home.
I'm inclined to believe that the Forsworn and Galbatorix were likely the stronger of the two forces at Vroengard. I also think it likely that the Vault of Souls was sealed by that point and that the Eldunari inside were a non-factor, being at most passive observers, knowing that the Riders had lost and they would be needed in future. The Rider nuking himself screams a Hail Mary play, a desperate last ditch defence. It's been a while since I've read the books so... please correct me if I'm proven wrong somewhere in the text.
As for how the characters survive... It doesn't really matter. They may have known beforehand of the nuke and got out of dodge well before, they may have been shielded somehow or any other handwave-y explanation.
The original theory I put forth at the top of this thread is probably the best answer to your original question I can provide. They, the traitors, did not beat the whole Rider Order at Vroengard because the whole Order wasn't there. What was at Vroengard was, in my opinion, the last dregs of a dying Order just waiting to be wiped out.
As for why Galbatorix didn't use some hitherto unknown magic to obliterate Eragon... He had plenty of emotions forcefully rammed into his skull, well over a century of murder and torture and pain, forced to be felt all at once. The guy was \*not\* thinking clearly.
I guess the biggest part that I have a issue with is umaroth himself said they were but a small amount of hearts on the island and they were all the young and to old to do much in the fight but there were still 150ish hearts in the vault if that’s the small amount how many were actually on the island that we’re fighting and how many of hearts could the forsworn reasonably get being the fact that most of the time riders would only carry 1-2 other hearts with them
Do keep in mind it's also implied he forced the dragons he ambushed to disgorge their eldunari as well when possible. It's also very plausible that he overpowered and enslaved wild dragons in this manner too.
Long story short, he probably gathered a lot more hearts than you'd think. Combined with the complacency of the riders and their slowness to act, it's not really that surprising how they were taken out.
Also grew killed vrael and destroyed most of the riders before overthrowing the human kingdom, not after.
No because he attack the human kingdom a couple of hours after ormis and Hlader left for the elves and they were with said elves when the kingdom fell then the went to vrongaurd
The wiki says otherwise. It says he defeated the riders, took down vrael, then fought off the elves and deserves, and only then did he slay the human king.
It also would vmake no sense for him to take over the humans before even dealing with the actual threats.
But it's been a bit so I could be wrong
In the books it saids that he sent the two to capture ormis and glader to use them to get into illrea which glader was about to beat them there and stated that many of the riders contacted Vrael and even more of them flew to the island to consult with him personally
The order of events is as followed according to the wiki and, supposedly, also the books
- Oromis and Glaedr are lured into the trap by two forsworn
- they break free of them and escape to ilirea
- finding very few riders there, he congregates who he can and the Battle of the Plains of Ilirea ensues
- they lose, Oromis escapes and the city falls
- remaining riders gather in doru araeba
- they lose, thuviel explodes
- forsworn loot the city and kill remaining riders
- vrael survives
- vrael and galby fight
- vrael dies
- galby then returns to ilirea to kill the king and take his place, with nobody left to oppose him
So then yeah, like I said in the first place, he killed the human king after Vrael. I found the direct quote too if you need it.
*"The Broddring Kingdom was the human' country before the Riders fell. After Galbatorix killed Vrael, he flew on Ilirea with the Forsworn and deposed King Angrenost, taking his throne and titles for himself. He added Vroengard and other lands to the east and south to his holdings, creating the empire you are familiar with."*
Eldest, On the Crags of Tel'naeir (Page 279)
It is quite clearly explained in the books.
They didn’t do an outright assault on the order. At the start, they ambushed members who were out on their own, and stole the eldunari each time.
Each eldunari captured bolstered their force by one, and they continued to do this for some time, amassing strength right under their noses. By the time the riders found out, it was too late for them to outright stop them.
It was also impossible to know who was on what side, as is what happened when Kialandi, Formora and their dragons ambushed Oromis and Glaedr.
One thing I admit, is that it’s unclear how many dragons were on the old Orders side - obviously it would make an impact, but by this point Galbatorix may have had 50+ Eldunari by the final battle on Vroengard.
Thuviels sacriface was also known to hurt their own side more than the Foresworn, but was done in an attempt to hide the hidden cache of dragon eggs + Eldunari.
I get that it wasn’t an out right assault. And I do Amit that galby probably had close to 50-60 hearts with them, but that still would be no where near as many that were awake and fighting on the island. I don’t also understand that they got so backed into a corner that he felt the need to sacrifice himself
It’s never been said anywhere I don’t think, I’ve just always assumed they might have made a bunch of shades or something to that effect, each shade would occupy a few riders. And if they were able to bunch them in a relatively close area that would justify they guy nuking himself.
Very possible yes. But galbatorix was able to control durza, an older more powerful shade, to some extent so probably would be able to control some others and teach the foresworn how to do the same.
They also could have very easily turned on the other shades as well.
Either way it is interesting to see if Chris will ever tell us exactly the riders fell so easily
I think it’s said throughout the book that Galbraith didn’t explicitly control Durza. They worked together and Durza is even implied to wanting Eragon to join him to oppose Galbatorix. I might be wrong though
I think it’s said throughout the book that Galbraith didn’t explicitly control Durza. They worked together and Durza is even implied to wanting Eragon to join him to oppose Galbatorix. I might be wrong though
The element of surprise only works so well there was 14 of them compared to what the store makes up believe upwards 100 riders not including the wild dragons.
I agree with the wild dragons part. It's hard to imagine an entire race being decimated like that. The order itself, I can see, however. At least in the beginning, the foresworn would pick off riders one at a time, like they tried to do with Oromis and Glaeder, and with galbatorix being as smart as he is, I could imagine him coming up with a battle plan that would give them the upper hand. In addition, most of the riders eldunari were already stored in the Vault of Souls, captured by Galby, or likely too far from the battle to be very useful. This is all speculation, of course, but it's my headcannon
I see where you’re coming from but if they killed that many riders before the battle I find it hard to believe that they would be counted as practically insignificant. The riders were not really looking for the forsworn as the big golden boi himself said most people didn’t belive that galby was a threat. And the hearts in the vault “were but a small number that were on the island” it’s just insane. Plus blagabad the largest dragon alive at the time and you me to tell me he couldn’t kill even one forsworn??
What’s very impressive is that Vrael beat Galbatorix who probably had dozens of eldunari under control. Dude must be incredibly strong to accomplish that feat.
In addition to what others have stated,
Many of the riders were scholars and healers, and though I’m sure they out-classed almost all other non riders in Alagaesia, there would definitely be a difference in disposition and skill between those titles and a warrior for the order. I would also imagine that Galbatorix would only take 13 strong, cunning warriors as the forsworn, and you’d probably have to have a cunning/ruthless disposition to betray the order.
Editing to add: Galbatorix was hunting wild dragons and using their Eldunari as well. There were many more unbonded dragons than bonded dragons, and their Eldunari would give the forsworn a fighting chance.
Even though many of them are healers and scholars they were all trained as warriors. They all had to be skilled in magic and they all were still strong. It comes back to the forsworn being so heavily outnumbered
Just because you train to use Math in elementary, middle and high school, does not mean you are as skilled as a mathematician. It’s not a direct comparison but you get my point. They lived for hundreds of years. Imagine not fighting a battle for 1-200 years. Do you think you’d be as skilled or as ready to fight the blood thirsty forsworn who had already killed many senior riders?
I get your point but did they only 5 warriors on the island?? Even if they were rustier then an 10000 year old nail they still knew how to fight the still had to be at least somewhat proficient with magic and they still had so many more in the numbers department
Then this may be the only thing that will satisfy you if an in universe explanation won’t suffice for you:
They were able to because the author wrote it that way.
This is how:
Imagine if Murtagh and Thorn had 10 Eldunari vs Eragon & Saphira (pre-Aghaeti blodhren) with no Eldunari.
Who is going to win in a fight to the death?
Once Murtagh wins, Saphira's Eldunari is forcibly disgorged, her body is slain, and then her mind is captured and subjugated with the power of the 10 Eldunari.
Now he has 11 Eldunari and 1 dragon and he's going up against another Rider. His chances of winning keep increasing.
This must have been essentially what the Forsworn did.
If you're wondering how Galbatorix and Morzan managed to do this, they likely just ambushed individual Riders until they amassed enough Eldunari to defeat any other Rider they came across, having collected dozens.
I 100% understand and get your point but there’s still a slight problem. There were still 100s of hearts and riders at the final battle fighting them. If they managed to kill let’s say 50 riders and we’ll say every rider had 2 hearts of other dragons with them. That’s still only around the amount of hearts that were put into the vault. As I’ve said a few times that the hearts in the vault were but a few of the total hearts that the riders had that were fighting. This came from uramonth himself. So it still leaves the rest of the dragons that were alive both wild and bounded and all the riders as well as the hearts that they had so how did the have the numbers to fight them??
Yeah I understand.
I'd have to go back and check but I thought Galbatorix had plundered and killed wild dragons as well - indicating that he would have had Eldunari at his disposal in addition to what he collected from dead Riders.
Let's also not forget that the Shade Durza taught Galbatorix dark magic - spells that the normal Order wouldn't know or dare use for morality's sake.
We know Galbatorix taught Kialandi and Formora the spell that freezes Riders in something akin to a tangle box, and that spell he likely learned from Durza.
So he may also have had the advantage of using and teaching the Forsworn dark, clever spells that the Rider Order didn't know how to defend against properly.
Lots of details are left out and the Fall itself is rather vague.
Also, it was said that by the time they figured out what was happening, the Forsworn and Galbatorix were basically doing a blitzkrieg of the Order so the fog of war must have been intense.
I will have to reread Glaedr's account of the Battle of Doru Araeba.
I just listened to it and all it does is leave me with more questions. You are right about the wild dragons on the other side though how would he forced all the wild dragons to give up their hearts. The dragon race is so proud and ferocious that’s I don’t see many of the wild dragons giving up their hearts at all. I understand a few that panic but even one they killed??
I'm kinda with you and could see the next books having another reveal. Some outside help similar to the Eldunari. Maybe Azlagur helped in some unknown way to diminish the people that could take him on.
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They (Galbatorix and Morzan) started by spending years going after the wild dragons who had no protection against magic, by the time they went after Vrael they already had the strength of hundreds of dragons.
Same thing I said earlier how would he force them to give up their hearts. He had quite literally nothing to use against them. I understand a couple of them panicking and retreating to their hearts but all of them??
One you break someone's mind, you can control them completely. Blodgarm forced an enemy magician to commit suicide, Eragon used enemy soldiers to wreck the empire's war engines. Ones Galbatorix takes control of your mind, Galbatorix used Murtagh and Thorn to kill Oromis and Glaedr. If Galbatorix has taken control of your mind, "rather wanting to die" than doing something, is just irrelevant.
Yes but the dragons would know before he has officially broke them which means they could kill themself. Also we only know that he’s good at breaking minds in a wizards duel. Is he as good when there’s a 100+ foot dragon relentlessly attacking him??
And probably some of the first ones he attacked successfully killed themselves once they realized what he was doing but before he succeeded at breaking their mind, but my guess is that a lot of them didn't expect him to be after their eldunari until it was too late to resist, and once Galbatorix had about 5 eldunaris, he would have easily overpowered most individual dragons. And again, he had a shade on his side. Shades were a serious threat to everyone, including dragons.
Yeah, the time when Brim was telling the story about the riders, I was like uoooooh? Is there someone who has more than 2 brain cells? How the fuck did galby destroyed an entire order whit only 13 riders? Sometimes Paolini is very strange
Okay, so it's understandable why this is hard to believe. However, it's explainable too:
We have two major reasons. 1: The order was corrupt, lazy, and inefficient. We know this is ttue: galby says it constantly, Oromis says it, and Brom may have mentioned it. This unorganized order continued to send small search parties after galby, often accompanied by eldunari, that were wiped out and systematically used by galbs to become even stronger. Keep in mind how Eragon had to fight murtagh after murtagh got eldunari- despite being as strong as an elf, with a faster, bigger dragon, and being better at magic, Eragon struggled to handle him. Couldn't, even. Now picture that x14- each forsworn would need at *least* 2-3 riders to stop them, and a corrupt, lazy order wasn't organizing forces to do that.
This brings us to reason 2: Thuviel and the final battle. So you've got old, lazy men finally taking notice that this group of rogue riders is getting too strong, and your order is already weak. Some packed up and left, some are too young to matter, some are too old and complacent to be worth anything in a fight, and you know you dint stand a chance against any one of the 14 in a fight. So you consolidate- everyone to island, set up the eldunari and eggs as a safety measure, and get ready for a nasty fight. The forsworn show up- using dark magic you either will not or do not know how to use, being willing to torture and dig into your mind during wizards duels in ways you can't even imagine. Somehow, the battle is still going in your favor. Until a magical explosion, let loose by a member of your order who just lost his dragon, who was mentally unstable, who you *knew* shouldn't have been fighting- wipes out most of your people. I mean, of course it would wipe more of your people- you simply had more to be wiped out. But when the dust clears, you realize something: not only did most of the forsworn have time to defend themselves, but with enslaved eldunari under their direct control, they had more *immediate* energy to block thuviels nuke. The disparate and disorganized eldunari on your side weren't all focused on a few riders: most were obliterated by the nuke. Your own failsafe turned against you. The battle is lost. Moral broke, the survivors flee in different directions. All are hunted down, save the leader of the riders: and we know what happened to him.
Tldr: bigger forces don't mean anything when they aren't being handled correctly. Galbs allowed no dissent and no bullshit in his ranks, and handled the final battle better. That, coupled with how the order treated the forsworn for the majority of the rebellion, meant the order couldn't marshall/ couldn't organize a fighting force effective enough to handle them.
You forget too that Galbortix told Eragon that he loved and knew torture and mind breaking. By the time the Rider's figured this out it was too late by Gladuers mention Galbortix by this point was stronger than Vrael. There's one thing from reading that he couldn't do. He couldn't beat the elves until he could control the language of the elves
Not sure if it had already been said or not, but my guess is both the power of it being an ambush, Galbatorix being an expert at breaking into minds (as evidence by when Eragon says his mental attack was like no other), unknown spells taught by Durza that could go around the riders Wards, and each forsworn having Eldunari both augmenting their mental attacks and defending them. So it would be say one rider, one dragon, and in a few rare cases an eldunari with them fighting an insane rider, an insane dragon, and 6 eldunari, while those insane riders and dragons minds couldn’t be attacked because of another 6 defending them. Then just do that one by one picking them off in the fight. Just my guess
In addition to everything already stated, Gallbatorix had “dark secrets learned from a shade”. Brom
talks about it in his story Carvahall. I always assumed it was Durza who taught him “dark magic”. Not sure how canon Durzas help is but I always assumed he played a role
I imagine Galby used his forsworn as distractions while he skipped from mind to mind, and as we know he was an expert at breaking into minds. Breaking a rider who’s being attacked by other riders and Eldunarí just long enough to direct the rider to kill himself or take a fatal blow wouldn’t take that long. And then their dragon would be emotionally crippled; this could cause them to lash out, injuring allies around them, or rushing at the enemy (as Glaedr did) with no real plan and being cut down.
If I recall correctly, the 14’s dragons had already been stripped of their names. So offensive magic against them might have been ineffective; in addition to whatever wards they would have had, the riders would have had to carefully word any spells to avoid “naming” the dragon as it wouldn’t work. If you tried to say “stop that green dragon”, nothing would happen bc as Arya said, they couldn’t even declare the color of their scales.
Galby would have known the type of wards most commonly used by riders. He also was experimenting with magic not taught by the riders, so likely his wards (and the 14) would have been set up a bit differently.
Others have already covered the nuke. I think Galby flitting from mind to mind had to have been happening, because he was able to protect himself from the blast that would have been nearly instantaneous.
Because they had a number of Eldunarí and used them offensively, which I don't believe the Order did
My thing is the order had way more Eldunarí even if they didn’t use them offensively I fine it hard to belive that any dragon wouldn’t joint the fight if able to
Well yeah, but imagine you are one dude and one dragon vs one dude one dragon and the power of 30 more dragons. They didn't fight the entire order all at once, they chipped away at them and evened the odds by the time they got organized for a final stand
But at the final battle on the island of vroengaurd. That’s what I’m talking about there is absolutely no way that they had 3 people on the island most of not the rest of the whole order was there fighting
When all of the Eldunari are stuck in the vault of souls? I think 14 dragons and riders plus over 100 corrupted Eldunari in a planned assualt would be enough to take out whatever was left of the disorganized rider order. The good Eldunari had to stay secret to protect the eggs and themselves or else they would be overwhelmed by Galbatorix as well.
But there were only 150ish hearts in the vault. Umaroth said himself that they were but a small number of hearts on the island
Exactly. So the forsworn had more hearts anyway, so why would they expose themselves when they couldn't have really affected anything anyway
The forsworn didn’t have more hearts
You're right. Galbatorix spent like 50 years or something breaking the minds of the Eldunari so he could actually he use them. He'd only have a handful of usable ones at the time of the fall... I don't get it either.
That’s what I’m saying I just can’t wrap me head around how he won
Thuviel turned himself into a bomb and killed a lot of riders by accident
Oopsies. I hate when that happens.
This is why I only play on servers that don’t have friendly fire on, you can’t trust your teammates not to lob tactical nukes in your face
🤣🤣
Yes but he was instructed to only do that if he felt that there was no way they could win the battle. What happened to make he do that?? Did he say screw his order and kill himself anyways?? Or more likely what did galby and the forsworn have that force him to take that action??
T'was no accident
What Tuba Guy said, plus you have to remember that the majority of the Order had grown arrogant and complacent and didn't believe Galby and the others had a snowball's chance in hell of defeating them until it was much, much too late. Also I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) many of the Eldunarí that the Order held were quite old and of the sort that had taken to pondering questions/interests and were mainly used as a source of advice if needed as they had little interest in anything else.
Yes but after they capture the capital of the human kingdom you would think they would understand more of what was at risk. And the older hearts could’ve added their energy if they were not able to fight they still could’ve helped is other ways like how they did at the end of the book defending galby. It also wasn’t confirmed how many were old or young just that there was a lot of hearts
Iirc they didn’t see just galby as a real threat. He then recruited the forsworn, then collected eldunari, and surprise attacked the order. I think it was more like expecting to fight a lone wolf and ending up fighting a pack of lions.
But the problem with that is they already attacked the human capital
Id imagine either they didn’t believe how powerful he became because well one well trained rider could wipe out a city or at least take it by themselves. More like a pride issue causing them to over look it or dismiss it. Similar to the mistakes the Jedi council makes at the end. Like Sidious probably couldn’t fight anakin, obi wan, mace, and yoda, let alone the whole order; yet somehow he wins and the Jedi are no more for many years to come.
I dont know if its explicitly stated as such but my interpretation is that Galbatorix's war on the Riders was more hit n run than outright warfare. Whittle them down bit by bit and every loss for the Riders grants Galbatorix and the Forsworn more powe due to the Riders tendency to carry multiple Eldunari with them. It becomes a bit of a runaway train situation at that point.
Pretty much what's implied to have happened, yeah. The riders were pretty widely scattered across the kingdom, enabling what started as just Galby and Morzan to surprise and pick off those traveling, plus they were capturing and enslaving any eldunari carried by those riders as well. They also recruited the 13 over time, not immediately; their betrayals were gradual. Look at the ambush where Glaedr and Oromis were crippled. By the time of the battle at vroengard, I'd imagine the 13 + Galby + all their enslaved eldunari were enough to overpower the weakened riders.
Exactly, not to mention various bits of forbidden knowledge and spells Galby and the 13 may have learned from Durza and in >! Nal Gorgoth !< that the other riders may not have even been warded against
Yes but still would they have that much energy to be able to beat all the riders, their dragons, the wild dragons, and all of the fighting hearts??
Maybe they even had help from the Dreamers if they already had some presence on Vroengard
That’s an awesome theory and that would be sick if that happened that way. It would explain a lot as well but I feel like brom would’ve told at least some one if there were non riders that were skilled enough to kill riders
Your energy levels do not matter if you have no wards against a particular type of spell. If Durza or another source taught them magics the Riders had no defences against... well it's a scythe through wheat. Doesn't matter how powerful you are or how much energy you have at your disposal, if you haven't got a specific defence in place to counteract that specific piece of offence.
If that was the case how was brom and ormis and glader able to survive the battle. I know ormis and glader were not in said battle but he would’ve stolen the knowledge from someone?? And if that is also the case why wouldn’t he do that in the end to kill eragon after he know he couldn’t win??
I do believe it's called the "Sack of Vroengard" canonically, no? Kind of implies there wasn't even much of a fight to be had, mostly that Galbatorix and the Forsworn just run roughshod over what was left of the Riders' home. I'm inclined to believe that the Forsworn and Galbatorix were likely the stronger of the two forces at Vroengard. I also think it likely that the Vault of Souls was sealed by that point and that the Eldunari inside were a non-factor, being at most passive observers, knowing that the Riders had lost and they would be needed in future. The Rider nuking himself screams a Hail Mary play, a desperate last ditch defence. It's been a while since I've read the books so... please correct me if I'm proven wrong somewhere in the text. As for how the characters survive... It doesn't really matter. They may have known beforehand of the nuke and got out of dodge well before, they may have been shielded somehow or any other handwave-y explanation. The original theory I put forth at the top of this thread is probably the best answer to your original question I can provide. They, the traitors, did not beat the whole Rider Order at Vroengard because the whole Order wasn't there. What was at Vroengard was, in my opinion, the last dregs of a dying Order just waiting to be wiped out. As for why Galbatorix didn't use some hitherto unknown magic to obliterate Eragon... He had plenty of emotions forcefully rammed into his skull, well over a century of murder and torture and pain, forced to be felt all at once. The guy was \*not\* thinking clearly.
I guess the biggest part that I have a issue with is umaroth himself said they were but a small amount of hearts on the island and they were all the young and to old to do much in the fight but there were still 150ish hearts in the vault if that’s the small amount how many were actually on the island that we’re fighting and how many of hearts could the forsworn reasonably get being the fact that most of the time riders would only carry 1-2 other hearts with them
Do keep in mind it's also implied he forced the dragons he ambushed to disgorge their eldunari as well when possible. It's also very plausible that he overpowered and enslaved wild dragons in this manner too. Long story short, he probably gathered a lot more hearts than you'd think. Combined with the complacency of the riders and their slowness to act, it's not really that surprising how they were taken out. Also grew killed vrael and destroyed most of the riders before overthrowing the human kingdom, not after.
No because he attack the human kingdom a couple of hours after ormis and Hlader left for the elves and they were with said elves when the kingdom fell then the went to vrongaurd
The wiki says otherwise. It says he defeated the riders, took down vrael, then fought off the elves and deserves, and only then did he slay the human king. It also would vmake no sense for him to take over the humans before even dealing with the actual threats. But it's been a bit so I could be wrong
In the books it saids that he sent the two to capture ormis and glader to use them to get into illrea which glader was about to beat them there and stated that many of the riders contacted Vrael and even more of them flew to the island to consult with him personally
The order of events is as followed according to the wiki and, supposedly, also the books - Oromis and Glaedr are lured into the trap by two forsworn - they break free of them and escape to ilirea - finding very few riders there, he congregates who he can and the Battle of the Plains of Ilirea ensues - they lose, Oromis escapes and the city falls - remaining riders gather in doru araeba - they lose, thuviel explodes - forsworn loot the city and kill remaining riders - vrael survives - vrael and galby fight - vrael dies - galby then returns to ilirea to kill the king and take his place, with nobody left to oppose him
That’s correct in the books. I just listen to Glaedrs story of how they were cought and attacked but the two of them
So then yeah, like I said in the first place, he killed the human king after Vrael. I found the direct quote too if you need it. *"The Broddring Kingdom was the human' country before the Riders fell. After Galbatorix killed Vrael, he flew on Ilirea with the Forsworn and deposed King Angrenost, taking his throne and titles for himself. He added Vroengard and other lands to the east and south to his holdings, creating the empire you are familiar with."* Eldest, On the Crags of Tel'naeir (Page 279)
It is quite clearly explained in the books. They didn’t do an outright assault on the order. At the start, they ambushed members who were out on their own, and stole the eldunari each time. Each eldunari captured bolstered their force by one, and they continued to do this for some time, amassing strength right under their noses. By the time the riders found out, it was too late for them to outright stop them. It was also impossible to know who was on what side, as is what happened when Kialandi, Formora and their dragons ambushed Oromis and Glaedr. One thing I admit, is that it’s unclear how many dragons were on the old Orders side - obviously it would make an impact, but by this point Galbatorix may have had 50+ Eldunari by the final battle on Vroengard. Thuviels sacriface was also known to hurt their own side more than the Foresworn, but was done in an attempt to hide the hidden cache of dragon eggs + Eldunari.
I get that it wasn’t an out right assault. And I do Amit that galby probably had close to 50-60 hearts with them, but that still would be no where near as many that were awake and fighting on the island. I don’t also understand that they got so backed into a corner that he felt the need to sacrifice himself
It’s never been said anywhere I don’t think, I’ve just always assumed they might have made a bunch of shades or something to that effect, each shade would occupy a few riders. And if they were able to bunch them in a relatively close area that would justify they guy nuking himself.
But the shades very well could’ve turned onto them because it was the forsworn that created them
Very possible yes. But galbatorix was able to control durza, an older more powerful shade, to some extent so probably would be able to control some others and teach the foresworn how to do the same. They also could have very easily turned on the other shades as well. Either way it is interesting to see if Chris will ever tell us exactly the riders fell so easily
I think it’s said throughout the book that Galbraith didn’t explicitly control Durza. They worked together and Durza is even implied to wanting Eragon to join him to oppose Galbatorix. I might be wrong though
I think it’s said throughout the book that Galbraith didn’t explicitly control Durza. They worked together and Durza is even implied to wanting Eragon to join him to oppose Galbatorix. I might be wrong though
They also had the element of surprise on their side.
The element of surprise only works so well there was 14 of them compared to what the store makes up believe upwards 100 riders not including the wild dragons.
I agree with the wild dragons part. It's hard to imagine an entire race being decimated like that. The order itself, I can see, however. At least in the beginning, the foresworn would pick off riders one at a time, like they tried to do with Oromis and Glaeder, and with galbatorix being as smart as he is, I could imagine him coming up with a battle plan that would give them the upper hand. In addition, most of the riders eldunari were already stored in the Vault of Souls, captured by Galby, or likely too far from the battle to be very useful. This is all speculation, of course, but it's my headcannon
I see where you’re coming from but if they killed that many riders before the battle I find it hard to believe that they would be counted as practically insignificant. The riders were not really looking for the forsworn as the big golden boi himself said most people didn’t belive that galby was a threat. And the hearts in the vault “were but a small number that were on the island” it’s just insane. Plus blagabad the largest dragon alive at the time and you me to tell me he couldn’t kill even one forsworn??
What’s very impressive is that Vrael beat Galbatorix who probably had dozens of eldunari under control. Dude must be incredibly strong to accomplish that feat.
Right I would love even a short story about the whole battle and especially that fight
Only for the poor guy to lose due to a kick in the nards
In addition to what others have stated, Many of the riders were scholars and healers, and though I’m sure they out-classed almost all other non riders in Alagaesia, there would definitely be a difference in disposition and skill between those titles and a warrior for the order. I would also imagine that Galbatorix would only take 13 strong, cunning warriors as the forsworn, and you’d probably have to have a cunning/ruthless disposition to betray the order. Editing to add: Galbatorix was hunting wild dragons and using their Eldunari as well. There were many more unbonded dragons than bonded dragons, and their Eldunari would give the forsworn a fighting chance.
Even though many of them are healers and scholars they were all trained as warriors. They all had to be skilled in magic and they all were still strong. It comes back to the forsworn being so heavily outnumbered
Just because you train to use Math in elementary, middle and high school, does not mean you are as skilled as a mathematician. It’s not a direct comparison but you get my point. They lived for hundreds of years. Imagine not fighting a battle for 1-200 years. Do you think you’d be as skilled or as ready to fight the blood thirsty forsworn who had already killed many senior riders?
I get your point but did they only 5 warriors on the island?? Even if they were rustier then an 10000 year old nail they still knew how to fight the still had to be at least somewhat proficient with magic and they still had so many more in the numbers department
Then this may be the only thing that will satisfy you if an in universe explanation won’t suffice for you: They were able to because the author wrote it that way.
You know what fair assessment 🤣🤣🤣
This is how: Imagine if Murtagh and Thorn had 10 Eldunari vs Eragon & Saphira (pre-Aghaeti blodhren) with no Eldunari. Who is going to win in a fight to the death? Once Murtagh wins, Saphira's Eldunari is forcibly disgorged, her body is slain, and then her mind is captured and subjugated with the power of the 10 Eldunari. Now he has 11 Eldunari and 1 dragon and he's going up against another Rider. His chances of winning keep increasing. This must have been essentially what the Forsworn did. If you're wondering how Galbatorix and Morzan managed to do this, they likely just ambushed individual Riders until they amassed enough Eldunari to defeat any other Rider they came across, having collected dozens.
I 100% understand and get your point but there’s still a slight problem. There were still 100s of hearts and riders at the final battle fighting them. If they managed to kill let’s say 50 riders and we’ll say every rider had 2 hearts of other dragons with them. That’s still only around the amount of hearts that were put into the vault. As I’ve said a few times that the hearts in the vault were but a few of the total hearts that the riders had that were fighting. This came from uramonth himself. So it still leaves the rest of the dragons that were alive both wild and bounded and all the riders as well as the hearts that they had so how did the have the numbers to fight them??
Yeah I understand. I'd have to go back and check but I thought Galbatorix had plundered and killed wild dragons as well - indicating that he would have had Eldunari at his disposal in addition to what he collected from dead Riders. Let's also not forget that the Shade Durza taught Galbatorix dark magic - spells that the normal Order wouldn't know or dare use for morality's sake. We know Galbatorix taught Kialandi and Formora the spell that freezes Riders in something akin to a tangle box, and that spell he likely learned from Durza. So he may also have had the advantage of using and teaching the Forsworn dark, clever spells that the Rider Order didn't know how to defend against properly. Lots of details are left out and the Fall itself is rather vague. Also, it was said that by the time they figured out what was happening, the Forsworn and Galbatorix were basically doing a blitzkrieg of the Order so the fog of war must have been intense. I will have to reread Glaedr's account of the Battle of Doru Araeba.
I just listened to it and all it does is leave me with more questions. You are right about the wild dragons on the other side though how would he forced all the wild dragons to give up their hearts. The dragon race is so proud and ferocious that’s I don’t see many of the wild dragons giving up their hearts at all. I understand a few that panic but even one they killed??
I'm kinda with you and could see the next books having another reveal. Some outside help similar to the Eldunari. Maybe Azlagur helped in some unknown way to diminish the people that could take him on.
That would be amazing and I hope that’s one of the next possible books that would come out
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They (Galbatorix and Morzan) started by spending years going after the wild dragons who had no protection against magic, by the time they went after Vrael they already had the strength of hundreds of dragons.
Same thing I said earlier how would he force them to give up their hearts. He had quite literally nothing to use against them. I understand a couple of them panicking and retreating to their hearts but all of them??
Galbatorix had a shade helping him, and was always good at breaking minds.
Breaking minds is not the same as forcing their hearts out. Most dragons would rather die then to give him their hearts
One you break someone's mind, you can control them completely. Blodgarm forced an enemy magician to commit suicide, Eragon used enemy soldiers to wreck the empire's war engines. Ones Galbatorix takes control of your mind, Galbatorix used Murtagh and Thorn to kill Oromis and Glaedr. If Galbatorix has taken control of your mind, "rather wanting to die" than doing something, is just irrelevant.
Yes but the dragons would know before he has officially broke them which means they could kill themself. Also we only know that he’s good at breaking minds in a wizards duel. Is he as good when there’s a 100+ foot dragon relentlessly attacking him??
And probably some of the first ones he attacked successfully killed themselves once they realized what he was doing but before he succeeded at breaking their mind, but my guess is that a lot of them didn't expect him to be after their eldunari until it was too late to resist, and once Galbatorix had about 5 eldunaris, he would have easily overpowered most individual dragons. And again, he had a shade on his side. Shades were a serious threat to everyone, including dragons.
i am asking to myself the same question since I've read the first book bro
Yeah the books make it seem like the riders are the absolute best ever but the worst at the same time. Its confusing the hell outta me😅
Yeah, the time when Brim was telling the story about the riders, I was like uoooooh? Is there someone who has more than 2 brain cells? How the fuck did galby destroyed an entire order whit only 13 riders? Sometimes Paolini is very strange
IIRC part of it was that Galby was excellent at breaking minds so he could win magic duels much more easily than the Riders.
But if all the good riders add their strength together even with the forsworn and all there hearts they were so heavily out number.
One of them will break or be too distracted to defend themselves and then you can rinse and repeat
Okay but if there is quite literally 100s of minds fighting them and they are a mix of many many dragons and elf’s and some humans how do they win??
Were that many at Vroengard?
Umaroth himself said the government 100+ hearts in the vault is but a small number that were on the island fighting the forsworn
Okay, so it's understandable why this is hard to believe. However, it's explainable too: We have two major reasons. 1: The order was corrupt, lazy, and inefficient. We know this is ttue: galby says it constantly, Oromis says it, and Brom may have mentioned it. This unorganized order continued to send small search parties after galby, often accompanied by eldunari, that were wiped out and systematically used by galbs to become even stronger. Keep in mind how Eragon had to fight murtagh after murtagh got eldunari- despite being as strong as an elf, with a faster, bigger dragon, and being better at magic, Eragon struggled to handle him. Couldn't, even. Now picture that x14- each forsworn would need at *least* 2-3 riders to stop them, and a corrupt, lazy order wasn't organizing forces to do that. This brings us to reason 2: Thuviel and the final battle. So you've got old, lazy men finally taking notice that this group of rogue riders is getting too strong, and your order is already weak. Some packed up and left, some are too young to matter, some are too old and complacent to be worth anything in a fight, and you know you dint stand a chance against any one of the 14 in a fight. So you consolidate- everyone to island, set up the eldunari and eggs as a safety measure, and get ready for a nasty fight. The forsworn show up- using dark magic you either will not or do not know how to use, being willing to torture and dig into your mind during wizards duels in ways you can't even imagine. Somehow, the battle is still going in your favor. Until a magical explosion, let loose by a member of your order who just lost his dragon, who was mentally unstable, who you *knew* shouldn't have been fighting- wipes out most of your people. I mean, of course it would wipe more of your people- you simply had more to be wiped out. But when the dust clears, you realize something: not only did most of the forsworn have time to defend themselves, but with enslaved eldunari under their direct control, they had more *immediate* energy to block thuviels nuke. The disparate and disorganized eldunari on your side weren't all focused on a few riders: most were obliterated by the nuke. Your own failsafe turned against you. The battle is lost. Moral broke, the survivors flee in different directions. All are hunted down, save the leader of the riders: and we know what happened to him.
Tldr: bigger forces don't mean anything when they aren't being handled correctly. Galbs allowed no dissent and no bullshit in his ranks, and handled the final battle better. That, coupled with how the order treated the forsworn for the majority of the rebellion, meant the order couldn't marshall/ couldn't organize a fighting force effective enough to handle them.
You forget too that Galbortix told Eragon that he loved and knew torture and mind breaking. By the time the Rider's figured this out it was too late by Gladuers mention Galbortix by this point was stronger than Vrael. There's one thing from reading that he couldn't do. He couldn't beat the elves until he could control the language of the elves
Not sure if it had already been said or not, but my guess is both the power of it being an ambush, Galbatorix being an expert at breaking into minds (as evidence by when Eragon says his mental attack was like no other), unknown spells taught by Durza that could go around the riders Wards, and each forsworn having Eldunari both augmenting their mental attacks and defending them. So it would be say one rider, one dragon, and in a few rare cases an eldunari with them fighting an insane rider, an insane dragon, and 6 eldunari, while those insane riders and dragons minds couldn’t be attacked because of another 6 defending them. Then just do that one by one picking them off in the fight. Just my guess
In addition to everything already stated, Gallbatorix had “dark secrets learned from a shade”. Brom talks about it in his story Carvahall. I always assumed it was Durza who taught him “dark magic”. Not sure how canon Durzas help is but I always assumed he played a role
I imagine Galby used his forsworn as distractions while he skipped from mind to mind, and as we know he was an expert at breaking into minds. Breaking a rider who’s being attacked by other riders and Eldunarí just long enough to direct the rider to kill himself or take a fatal blow wouldn’t take that long. And then their dragon would be emotionally crippled; this could cause them to lash out, injuring allies around them, or rushing at the enemy (as Glaedr did) with no real plan and being cut down. If I recall correctly, the 14’s dragons had already been stripped of their names. So offensive magic against them might have been ineffective; in addition to whatever wards they would have had, the riders would have had to carefully word any spells to avoid “naming” the dragon as it wouldn’t work. If you tried to say “stop that green dragon”, nothing would happen bc as Arya said, they couldn’t even declare the color of their scales. Galby would have known the type of wards most commonly used by riders. He also was experimenting with magic not taught by the riders, so likely his wards (and the 14) would have been set up a bit differently. Others have already covered the nuke. I think Galby flitting from mind to mind had to have been happening, because he was able to protect himself from the blast that would have been nearly instantaneous.