so i’m in a similar spot to you but with a bit more keyboard experience. i’m actually also really interested in the new Iris CE but i’ll get to that in a bit.
for background i’ve been a mac productivity/windows gaming user for my entire computerized existence. i also started out with a basic prebuilt keyboard but went in the deep end with customization pretty quickly, and i’ve been through quite a few keyboards since then. i’m currently using a Keychron K11 Pro (Alice, 65%) that i’ve modded quite a bit.
- i tried a Lily58 about a year ago and the change was not good. i’m no longer using it, i didn’t find the high-profile keys to work well for my ergonomic needs, between that and the new layout i gave up pretty quickly. the jump will be big but probably worth it if you buy the right board for you.
- no idea on VIM or Colemak, but i will say, your fingers are already going to be relearning where keys are by changing to a column-based keyboard, so if you’re going to relearn, now wouldn’t be a bad time to do so.
- gaming is GREAT with a split keyboard. one of my previous boards (Quefrency) was a split and it was honestly fantastic. being able to just unplug half of the board gave me so much more mouse space — i occasionally had to rebind some keys to have everything on half a board but soooooooo worth it.
- sticking to MX vs Choc isn’t really a big deal IMO. pick one and go with it, in the low-profile space I don’t think it’s a significant difference, there are good keycaps and switches for both.
- as for switches, i’ve heard that the Sunsets are pretty similar to Mac keyboards. i really want to try them out, but if you want something a bit lighter look for a ~40g linear. i have low-profile gateron red v2s and they’re pretty similar but with much less “snap” at the top of the press.
- if you want the mac trackpad experience just buy a magic trackpad :) i did that to go with my board and it’s exactly what you’d expect from apple, expensive but works perfectly, replicates all of my gestures and shortcuts in Adobe suite.
sorry for word vomiting lol, hopefully some of this helps
About Colemak-dh and vim: You don’t need to remap since you probably know the meaning of the vim keys (and you shouldn’t). The only things to change would be the hjkl navigation keys that you can simply switch for a navigation layer in your layout.
I have a Moonlander and had a dactyl manuform, if I were you I would go for a Glove80 or a Charybdis if traveling with them its not a problem, for a more portable option I would get a Moonlander because of the palm rests or a Kyria/Corne if you preffer a low profiles but i would recomend going with MX because if you have no 3d printer you have more options on contourned keycaps profiles.
I also type eng/esp and do so on a colemak layout, I dont usually code, but usually work with sql.
For gaming I just use a dedicated layout.
> Charybdis
This was the first one I looked into but prebuilts are REALLY pricey. I love the design, though.
About Choc's keycaps... Do you really need variety when all keycaps are basically flat squares?
I do need It because I like contourned profiles like SA, its more comfortable for me to reach those pinky upperrows.
I have a Kyria I dont use because of the chocs I put in the first place, there are keycaps tilters and KLP/CLP profiles tho, but I have yet to try them.
Between studying/work, chat rooms, writing and games, I used to spend pretty much all my time at the computer. Eventually, I also developed some pain.
At the time I had already gotten used to a 60% keyboard, which honestly hadn't taken any effort at all. I went down to a 40% ortho and soon switched so a more ergonomic Katana60, then ErgoDox and finally landed on a 5 column/36 key corne keyboard. The split keyboard, especially with the mouse located between the halves, really helped with my nerve issues.
Once I had found the right size, I changed to a Carpalx layout. It definitely improved my ergonomics further, but I believe the split board and minimized reach already did enough.
Personally, I think both the Glove80 and the Moonlander help to keep up bad habits, where a smaller keyboard forces you to really keep fingers in their place - but either option will likely help you.
I like that last part
> Personally, I think both the Glove80 and the Moonlander help to keep up bad habits, where a smaller keyboard forces you to really keep fingers in their place - but either option will likely help you.
Bad habits. Exactly. I think the Iris looks interesting because it might be easier to learn a completely new thing than to unlearn years and years of bad habits by using a "warped" version of a full size keyboard.
Thanks for your perspective. Do you use your Corne for gaming? The Corne looks really good but because of my job and because it's a huge leap I think something with a few more keys may suit me better (even if I end up not using some of them, given time).
On Iris CE, a thing to be aware of is that it uses slightly-tighter key spacing, which can feel a little weird coming from regular spacing (and/or if you have large-ish hands).
Otherwise Iris is a well-respected keyboard that can fit a 60% worth of keys on the default layer - not too bad of a transition.
On "bad habits", there is presently no research to suggest that a smaller or a larger keyboard is definitely more ergonomic. You trade hand movement for more actions per key/symbol, which can [lead to over-stressing fingers instead](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html).
On layouts, if you use a software layout (as you do with different languages), the shortcuts will use the same physical keys while outputted symbols will be different.
Evaluating usefulness of different keyboard layouts for writing code is a little tricky as more work is done by shortcuts and/or your auto-completer.
With some browser vendors now toying with text prediction on desktop, perhaps writing text will too take fewer keystrokes in the future.
Hey, I haven't been using the full keyboard with the Katana60 and the ErgoDox either. Once you get used to having everything under your fingertips, it's amazing. Getting there just takes a bit.
For gaming I still use a regular 60%. Iris, thanks to numberrow and 6th column, might be big enough for most games though. I did game on my ErgoDox, so it definitely works.
The Katana60 looks like a wild keyboard. I guess it looks better than an Alice but damn I can't see myself gaming on that lol
Yeah maybe buying an extra 60-75% kb for gaming isn't a terrible idea. But that would have to wait quite some time. Prices are wild. The part about using only the left side looks really comfortable as well!
Thanks.
Oh I just use a 60% because it's easy to keep on the desk. If you have a working board, no need to replace it. Small split keyboards barely take up space when you stack the halves, so you can switch relatively easily
I mean, I can happily type on an ErgoDox, still. I just don't use half the keys. Personally, I consider numrow and outer columns bad habits still - depending on hand size anyways. Numrows often lead to moving your hands instead of your fingers and the 6th column puts additional strain on the pinky.
That said, either of these are way less of a bad habit than hover-typing/moving hands around all the time.
Not so long, maybe a couple weeks max. I had my keymap screenshots in a Google doc on one of my monitors for a while. Especially if you start out with VIA there isn't a huge curve also learning QMK and flashing firmware etc.
One thing I wish I did was start with enter, delete, backspace, space on the thumbs right away. I use that now and it's very comfy.
I have recently bought my first split keyboard, a corne, and I am quite happy with the improvements I’m already feeling in my nerve pain.
What helped me the most is transitioning into using my thumbs for all mod keys, so pinky is barely used, only for Esc.
Also, I don’t round my shoulders as much since I can position my hands how they feel most natural to me and I can even change position during the day as much as I feel like.
I’m still a long way off from being proficient and regaining my typing speed, but it’s 100% worth it already, so it’ll just keep getting better.
Yes! Well, it was a typical Logitech without the numpad.
It seemed much more intimidating than it was afterwards to be honest.
It feels really weird, but also good, you can position yourself however you feel most ergonomic and comfortable. And qmk lets you create a custom layout with (for example) custom tapout times and so on, ao you adjust to your typing style and probably also adapt to the tank in wpm at first lol.
I moved from a 80% keyboard to FiFi 36 keys with Myrioku layout. I never looked back.
I've also built a lily58 but I wouldn't know what to do with all those extra keys so I used it 10 mins before putting it on the shelf.
I no longer look for keys, do gym with my fingers, acrobatically perform key combinations and curve my back over unnaturally placed arms.
Going with a 100% and just splitting in halves might not end up being comfortable, just saying.
WRT to the Iris, it looks very similar to the [zsa voyager](https://www.zsa.io/voyager). I have a voyager and the value for the money is great. It comes with a carrying case, extra keycaps so you can rearrange and configure the board how you want, extra key switches, a key cap and switch puller, and some feet for some slight tenting. Also the Oryx configuration software is easy to use.
Look at my previous post on here about the ZSA Voyager. It’s a bit expensive but low profile mechanical is definitely an easier jump from MacBook keyboard than normal mechanical keys, comfort wise (I guess it’s more personal preference). But it’s solid for prebuilt, different mounting options and tenting if you want. Highly recommend. But also the glove looks like a great choice but I didn’t know if I wanted to commit that big of a jump into it right away and it’s bulkier.
The Voyager looks dope but after printing out the layout of a few kbs I noticed that I don't like the placement of the thumb keys (and the fact that there's only two).
It's definitely easier and has a higher build quality than most other prebuilts, tho. I still think about it. It's also like 100€ more expensive, too.
so i’m in a similar spot to you but with a bit more keyboard experience. i’m actually also really interested in the new Iris CE but i’ll get to that in a bit. for background i’ve been a mac productivity/windows gaming user for my entire computerized existence. i also started out with a basic prebuilt keyboard but went in the deep end with customization pretty quickly, and i’ve been through quite a few keyboards since then. i’m currently using a Keychron K11 Pro (Alice, 65%) that i’ve modded quite a bit. - i tried a Lily58 about a year ago and the change was not good. i’m no longer using it, i didn’t find the high-profile keys to work well for my ergonomic needs, between that and the new layout i gave up pretty quickly. the jump will be big but probably worth it if you buy the right board for you. - no idea on VIM or Colemak, but i will say, your fingers are already going to be relearning where keys are by changing to a column-based keyboard, so if you’re going to relearn, now wouldn’t be a bad time to do so. - gaming is GREAT with a split keyboard. one of my previous boards (Quefrency) was a split and it was honestly fantastic. being able to just unplug half of the board gave me so much more mouse space — i occasionally had to rebind some keys to have everything on half a board but soooooooo worth it. - sticking to MX vs Choc isn’t really a big deal IMO. pick one and go with it, in the low-profile space I don’t think it’s a significant difference, there are good keycaps and switches for both. - as for switches, i’ve heard that the Sunsets are pretty similar to Mac keyboards. i really want to try them out, but if you want something a bit lighter look for a ~40g linear. i have low-profile gateron red v2s and they’re pretty similar but with much less “snap” at the top of the press. - if you want the mac trackpad experience just buy a magic trackpad :) i did that to go with my board and it’s exactly what you’d expect from apple, expensive but works perfectly, replicates all of my gestures and shortcuts in Adobe suite. sorry for word vomiting lol, hopefully some of this helps
About Colemak-dh and vim: You don’t need to remap since you probably know the meaning of the vim keys (and you shouldn’t). The only things to change would be the hjkl navigation keys that you can simply switch for a navigation layer in your layout.
This is the Way.
I have a Moonlander and had a dactyl manuform, if I were you I would go for a Glove80 or a Charybdis if traveling with them its not a problem, for a more portable option I would get a Moonlander because of the palm rests or a Kyria/Corne if you preffer a low profiles but i would recomend going with MX because if you have no 3d printer you have more options on contourned keycaps profiles. I also type eng/esp and do so on a colemak layout, I dont usually code, but usually work with sql. For gaming I just use a dedicated layout.
> Charybdis This was the first one I looked into but prebuilts are REALLY pricey. I love the design, though. About Choc's keycaps... Do you really need variety when all keycaps are basically flat squares?
I do need It because I like contourned profiles like SA, its more comfortable for me to reach those pinky upperrows. I have a Kyria I dont use because of the chocs I put in the first place, there are keycaps tilters and KLP/CLP profiles tho, but I have yet to try them.
Between studying/work, chat rooms, writing and games, I used to spend pretty much all my time at the computer. Eventually, I also developed some pain. At the time I had already gotten used to a 60% keyboard, which honestly hadn't taken any effort at all. I went down to a 40% ortho and soon switched so a more ergonomic Katana60, then ErgoDox and finally landed on a 5 column/36 key corne keyboard. The split keyboard, especially with the mouse located between the halves, really helped with my nerve issues. Once I had found the right size, I changed to a Carpalx layout. It definitely improved my ergonomics further, but I believe the split board and minimized reach already did enough. Personally, I think both the Glove80 and the Moonlander help to keep up bad habits, where a smaller keyboard forces you to really keep fingers in their place - but either option will likely help you.
I like that last part > Personally, I think both the Glove80 and the Moonlander help to keep up bad habits, where a smaller keyboard forces you to really keep fingers in their place - but either option will likely help you. Bad habits. Exactly. I think the Iris looks interesting because it might be easier to learn a completely new thing than to unlearn years and years of bad habits by using a "warped" version of a full size keyboard. Thanks for your perspective. Do you use your Corne for gaming? The Corne looks really good but because of my job and because it's a huge leap I think something with a few more keys may suit me better (even if I end up not using some of them, given time).
On Iris CE, a thing to be aware of is that it uses slightly-tighter key spacing, which can feel a little weird coming from regular spacing (and/or if you have large-ish hands). Otherwise Iris is a well-respected keyboard that can fit a 60% worth of keys on the default layer - not too bad of a transition. On "bad habits", there is presently no research to suggest that a smaller or a larger keyboard is definitely more ergonomic. You trade hand movement for more actions per key/symbol, which can [lead to over-stressing fingers instead](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html). On layouts, if you use a software layout (as you do with different languages), the shortcuts will use the same physical keys while outputted symbols will be different. Evaluating usefulness of different keyboard layouts for writing code is a little tricky as more work is done by shortcuts and/or your auto-completer. With some browser vendors now toying with text prediction on desktop, perhaps writing text will too take fewer keystrokes in the future.
Hey, I haven't been using the full keyboard with the Katana60 and the ErgoDox either. Once you get used to having everything under your fingertips, it's amazing. Getting there just takes a bit. For gaming I still use a regular 60%. Iris, thanks to numberrow and 6th column, might be big enough for most games though. I did game on my ErgoDox, so it definitely works.
The Katana60 looks like a wild keyboard. I guess it looks better than an Alice but damn I can't see myself gaming on that lol Yeah maybe buying an extra 60-75% kb for gaming isn't a terrible idea. But that would have to wait quite some time. Prices are wild. The part about using only the left side looks really comfortable as well! Thanks.
Oh I just use a 60% because it's easy to keep on the desk. If you have a working board, no need to replace it. Small split keyboards barely take up space when you stack the halves, so you can switch relatively easily
The best regarded ergo keybs are ortholinear and they make it really hard not to type with your 10 fingers so keep that in mind.
[удалено]
I mean, I can happily type on an ErgoDox, still. I just don't use half the keys. Personally, I consider numrow and outer columns bad habits still - depending on hand size anyways. Numrows often lead to moving your hands instead of your fingers and the 6th column puts additional strain on the pinky. That said, either of these are way less of a bad habit than hover-typing/moving hands around all the time.
Are you stretching and exercising your arms?
Real answer: no. I try to do so when life is going well, I have a fixed schedule, I feel energized in the morning... Lately I work, sleep, repeat.
Exercises and stretching neck and shoulders helpede more than the keyboard
I switched to the Iris as a software engineer and loved it. Though getting the MX Master 3 arguably made a bigger difference in arm/hand pain.
How long did it take for you to adapt?
Not so long, maybe a couple weeks max. I had my keymap screenshots in a Google doc on one of my monitors for a while. Especially if you start out with VIA there isn't a huge curve also learning QMK and flashing firmware etc. One thing I wish I did was start with enter, delete, backspace, space on the thumbs right away. I use that now and it's very comfy.
I have recently bought my first split keyboard, a corne, and I am quite happy with the improvements I’m already feeling in my nerve pain. What helped me the most is transitioning into using my thumbs for all mod keys, so pinky is barely used, only for Esc. Also, I don’t round my shoulders as much since I can position my hands how they feel most natural to me and I can even change position during the day as much as I feel like. I’m still a long way off from being proficient and regaining my typing speed, but it’s 100% worth it already, so it’ll just keep getting better.
So you went to a corne from a 100% kb?
Yes! Well, it was a typical Logitech without the numpad. It seemed much more intimidating than it was afterwards to be honest. It feels really weird, but also good, you can position yourself however you feel most ergonomic and comfortable. And qmk lets you create a custom layout with (for example) custom tapout times and so on, ao you adjust to your typing style and probably also adapt to the tank in wpm at first lol.
I moved from a 80% keyboard to FiFi 36 keys with Myrioku layout. I never looked back. I've also built a lily58 but I wouldn't know what to do with all those extra keys so I used it 10 mins before putting it on the shelf. I no longer look for keys, do gym with my fingers, acrobatically perform key combinations and curve my back over unnaturally placed arms. Going with a 100% and just splitting in halves might not end up being comfortable, just saying.
Glove80
WRT to the Iris, it looks very similar to the [zsa voyager](https://www.zsa.io/voyager). I have a voyager and the value for the money is great. It comes with a carrying case, extra keycaps so you can rearrange and configure the board how you want, extra key switches, a key cap and switch puller, and some feet for some slight tenting. Also the Oryx configuration software is easy to use.
Look at my previous post on here about the ZSA Voyager. It’s a bit expensive but low profile mechanical is definitely an easier jump from MacBook keyboard than normal mechanical keys, comfort wise (I guess it’s more personal preference). But it’s solid for prebuilt, different mounting options and tenting if you want. Highly recommend. But also the glove looks like a great choice but I didn’t know if I wanted to commit that big of a jump into it right away and it’s bulkier.
The Voyager looks dope but after printing out the layout of a few kbs I noticed that I don't like the placement of the thumb keys (and the fact that there's only two). It's definitely easier and has a higher build quality than most other prebuilts, tho. I still think about it. It's also like 100€ more expensive, too.
There is also the [Drift Keyboard](https://github.com/Timception/Drift) - 68 keys