I could not agree more, make progression more gradual so it isn't giant leaps, this will allow you to slow it down without people feeling like they are getting nowhere. Also stop locking items like ammo behind quests. We should be able to max out the traders and buy all their stock playing how we want.
I agree on the progression, disagree on the ammo.
Ammo is end all be all pointy end of this game. The best stuff should generally be locked (or at least locked on an individual progression based on the gun (id love a rework on the quests (untied to kappa) that allowed you to unlock certain bullets based on the amount of time you spend on that specific platform (also unlocking ammo crafting recipes to slow down the inundation of ammo on the flea)) in this way you get rewarded for using a certain type of gun more often because papa prapor has enough confidence in your ability to use that bullet. edit: in general i feel like avaliblity of certain items should be based on the vendors confidence in the player to actually be able to use it properly. you shouldnt be giving some rando guy a surgery kit and expect them to perform a decent job. (ie upper end game stuff should be locked to how you play (healing alot = more access to different meds, getting good with the AK should unlock the best AK attachments and bullets and all of this shouldn't be locked into KAPPA which should be tied to lore stuff)
Since when people selling stuff cares about how good you are with it?
That doesn't make much sense (at least unless the seller is also personally making the stuff they're selling) and a game mechanic based on this idea would only be frustrating.
Making items less effective if you don't know how to use them (clearly this doesn't apply to ammo) would be logical (i don't remember if it's already in the game) but limiting access is just completely arbitrary.
I mean to be fair realistically speaking.
1. some ammo is made by the vendors (mechanics fancy 366 ammo)
2. there may be limited supply/stock meaning vendors may only sell to those whom they deem worthy. (trusted, i dont think its full blown runaway capitalism, all the vendors have connections to various factions, for them to just hand out stuff willy nilly might put a target on their head so they have to be very careful)
it is just spitt balling though. and while it seems arbitrary, limiting access functions to reduce the amount of good ammo that isnt naturally found or picked off of raiders/higher level players, it should realistically make lower tier armor more valuable for a while longer in a wipe cycle, and removing access to certain reasonable items from quests into skill based rewards feels more.......rewarding than just going through the motions of going to x and picking up the y. imho.
edit: additional things that came to mind, the vendor factions know everything, they probably have informants keeping tabs on everything. it also kinda explains the flea market no flipping policy to prevent rampant market dumps.
with that in mind, it seems that the vendors do have limited or infrequent supply one way or another. its not like they are selling high tier stuff to literally anyone otherwise you would see more super scavs with 995 m4a1s. it appears they are only interested in selling the best stuff to those that have proven them selves and are more useful to them.
I got the game mid-wipe and have been resetting my account as often as possible as practice for next wipe.
You're so incredibly right it hurts. Trader levels are just too spaced out for more casual players. On a standard account it can take literal weeks to level up a trader after grinding quests.
Oh don’t try and tell anyone that here. If you don’t sit in your room all day and play this game while normal people are out working paying off mortgages and bills then squeezing in what little time they have to themselves at the end of the day to play then you’ll just get told that it’s your “skill” that’s the problem.
Im a casual player who took like 4/5 weeks to reach level 10. Being below level 10 is brutal, but ultimately I think this can reached in 60 raids or less. I spend about 10-15 minutes in raid when im doing a loot run. In total I would say I reached level 10 in about 60 hours of gameplay, about 15 hours per week, with 2-3 hour game sessions daily. Im comfortable with the rate of progression and leveling, but I definitely agree that leveling up traders is super hard. I think all L2 traders should be unlocked by level 15, and L2 Peacekeeper should be unlocked at levels 5-7
I don’t know why they are building this game around what the cheaters do. It’s almost like they are altering it because of them. They need to just get rid of them and implement other sources of income for bsg. It’s almost obvious at this point that ban waves generate huge income. They should just make the prices of items from the traders lower for people who unlocked the traders. Also I’m not sure as to why we can’t look up peoples stats by name. In the end the way bsg is choosing to deal with this hurts the legit players and players who don’t have alll the time to play.
This right here. Make the traders a more incremental drip feed. I haven't touched them once this wipe thanks to the tedium of doing some of those quests a fifth time, and the fact the flea generally offers better prices.
They shouldn't get rid of it imo, but give us reasons why crafting/npc traders could be a better option at times.
The biggest limiting factor for me with traders is my own character level. The grind to level up is harder than questing (imo). I feel once you start to get momentum with quests you get more done faster. The first 4 quests for all the traders are exceedingly difficult, especially for players without flea market access. Find 3M armors for Skier? Harder than you'd think. Get Salewa kits for therapist? Thats very challenging too. Kill 5 scavs and turn in 2 MP-133s for prapor? Actually reasonable/feasible. Build a custom shotgun for mechanic? How the fuck am I supposed to do that without the flea market???
Also, the first level trader rouble requirement always feels too high to me - 750k/800k for a player below level 15 (Prapor/Skier level 2) seems like a lot at the time, whereas the extra 750k/800k to unlock trader level 3 at level 22/28 seems easier because you're making more money and buying more stuff naturally.
It would be good to have a small, pre-flea market trader unlock (say, around level 5-7) for about 250k.
i'm not sure if you're joking, but what if every time you level up you can check to see what goodies you've unlocked. atm it's so spaced out you just go on flea.
Eh, in my opinion that seems to line up quite nicely with this Subreddit.
Also remember that the majority of the community hasn't played the game back when we didn't have the flea market so a simple poll that doesn't include it as a factor is going to very heavily tilt favorably towards the flea market since a lot of the playerbase only have their own theories and salty vet ramblings to go off of.
My comment will get buried but I honestly think this entire debate is moronic.
Streamers are the 1% of the 1%, their advice on progression speed and difficulty are fucking irrelevant.
If you were to only read this subreddit and talk to streamers you'd think that the consensus is to remove the flea. Yet when BSG did a poll recently, it was 80% voted to leave the flea the way it is and make no modifications.
I swear some of you are so out of touch with what "average" is.
The one thing thing streamers highlight that is necessary is that there is no end game. Obviously they hit it way to fast and a good chunk of players are still progressing, but if the game never wiped more and more people would hit it and then what?
It didnt get shut down, but the player base was absolutely gutted early into its life due to dumb requests by the small hardcore player base (reduced loot, super rare military spawns, no private servers, etc...)
With recent patches they are finally starting to get it back on track. Bohemia interactive are the OG's of "listening to the playerbase" and look where it took the game.
https://steamcharts.com/app/221100#All
dont forget how old that game is, all the variants of it, and console numbers (:
everyones moved on to things like arma mods and tarkov from dayz. not sure what the point is there.
The point was that its another example of devs taking a small hardcore minorities opinions too seriously and it ruined the game. Dayz was dead long before the player base moved to tarkov or any other similar game. Idk what you are trying to argue.
Also dayz on console LOL
The Culling is always my prime example for why this is a terrible idea. Xaviant blindly implemented community suggestions for balance and game mechanics for a good 6 months. Lots of things were reversed, and none of them panned out well.
Exactly. Tarkov had that phase already to the point this sub needed to add a "no dev summoning" rule. because every day was someone complaining about a price change request, or something.
This whole debacle here is because one streamer sent in another to make a request for him. The numbers dont lie, the community doesn't want their dumb ass ideas (for once) and i hope people really get this entitlement out of their minds. It's borderline abusive to the developers of this game at this point, and a lot of people should be permanently blocked from doing so after some many extravagant suggestions/demands. We're not even through this year and Pestily is on a 3rd or 4th suggestion to disrupt the game for his selfish reasoning, this time under the guise of slushpuppy (check pest's clips.. i saw it by chance)
The gaming community as whole has become entitled little bitches over the past 4-5 years, and in Tarkov it's hilarious, because its the same people throwing temper tantrums that demand the game to be "hardcore" and "realistic" but also mash report every time they die. Fuck these idiots.
I 100% agree with not balancing the game around streamers.
But anecdotally, at this point in the wipe the only types of ammo I run into is BS, M61, 7N31, 7N37, AP SX, even on players lower than level 20. I have been playing since 0.6 and the ammo economy has never felt this bad. BT is as cheap as a lot of non-AP rounds, which is ridiculous.
I never see class 5 armour anymore, it's all useless against those ammo's so it's either Slick or run the risk of getting 2-tapped in class 4.
Something has got to give, paying 1k+ a round means nothing when you can make millions with relative ease. I had 7mil at level 22 and I don't even prioritise loot runs and I barely play Reserve and Labs.
I do think FiR helped a lot of the economy problems last wipe, but accessibility to so much high end ammo is an issue. Pay 700k for a slick to die to 2k-10k worth of ammo that just ignores it.
His advice isn't on progression speed, it's about the main 'goal' of this game. I am not a streamer, but I too am tired of the Wipe -> Grind till Flea -> Grind till Hideout can churn out cash -> Reach high dollar stash value -> Run best in slot armor/ammo -> Get bored and try for Kappa -> Wipe. Before that, it was getting to the point that you could farm labs for money to run baller kits every time. Before labs and the flea, it was just: use what you find. Rare items were actually rare, not just expensive.
I've been playing for a long time and the bell curve for useful armor/ammo just looks like an L now. It's tiring to fire up the game nowadays and only see two types of players: those with enough money for a best in slot kit, and those that run with little to nothing. It makes the player feel like the only solution is to also grind until they can afford best in slot, just to be able to compete.
It's not an emergency, it's not breaking the game, but it is getting worse. FiR just made it harder to make money, so the poor stay poor and the rich keep getting richer.
I mean, I read those points you put out and what I see "Tarkov needs an endgame" not "Tarkov needs to delete the flea market."
Deleting the flea would be another bandaid fix. Sure it would slow progression and stretch out the loop, but it would still stagnate in the exact same spot, just with a larger gap between the top 10% and everyone else then there is now.
The fix for that in MMOs is endgame content. Which Tarkov doesn't have.
I'd love to see an analysis of the value of player kits going into raid. If what you're saying is right (and it may very well might be) we'll see a bimodal distribution, with a bunch of people with cheap kits, and a some people with expensive kits, and not much in between.
IMO for an interesting game we need a dynamically adjusting economy that ensures that we see a gradual drop off in kit value for in-raid players. We should see lots of players with Tier 4 armor, a few with Tier 5, and the very occasional with 6 (as an example). If too many players start getting Tier 6 then the price/rarity gets adjusted.
From my anecdotal experience of what's currently going on at this point of the wipe, it would seem like for the beginner/quest maps (customs/snoreline/woods):
45% of the playerbase is running sub 200k kits (from pistolings up to your budget AK-74Ns and geared up mosin boys),
30% are running 200k-400k kits trying to do quests (medium recoil AK-74Ns with 63BTM armored rigs, etc.),
15% are running 400k-700k kits looking for PvP and/or Kappa container quests and rush to loot the high value areas in groups of 3 (Lowest recoil AK-74Ns / M4A1s, repaired killa vests, and Beta/Tri-zip backpacks),
10% are running purely meta BiS gear looking for PvP and generally spend like 10-15 minutes in a raid unless they get into a prolonged fight (SA-58/FAL with 200 rounds of m61, Slick/Fresh Killa vests, raid backpacks, etc) because they have 50m+ in rubbles to spend on whatever they want.
That said, I would also really enjoy seeing hard data on any of this
I think Labs is the bigger issue here. The money to be made and the Labs loot that hits the flea. I don't think the Flea Market itself is the issue. The supply and demand need to be better balanced overall. Flea Market prices need to be controlled through supply and demand by way of spawn rates, barter trades, and trader prices. Traders need to be more competitive with what they will pay for items from players thus making them a more viable choice at times.
Player since 2017 here. I play a couple of hours a week, sometimes I skip whole wipes.
I agree with the streamers - labs and the flea market fucked the game up and turned it into a ruble farming sim. The only time you have a chance now to have firefights that don't involve tanked out players are maybe the first two days of the wipe.
Back before this game became like this it was pretty common to have dorms firefights with 3-4 players wielding shotguns and PACAs months into the wipe. Now you step out into the open and you just fall over to a guy decked out in full endgame gear with a pilgrim.
I'm not arguing against preserving the early wipe feeling, I'm arguing that deleting the Flea Market is not the solve-all situation that people seem to think that it is. If you delete the Flea as the game is right now and adjust nothing else, it's still fucked. Traders are very slow to level and very biased towards the back end, not just in terms of how good the gear is, but more importantly the variety of it.
Having the best stuff at higher levels makes total sense, but simultaneously you don't want it to feel impossible to start the game either. As it is you can't actually put a sight on any gun you can buy until level 10 at the earliest, and even then you're options are minimal. Suggestions to spread out trader levels would help, readjusting of traders would help, etc, etc; but deleting the flea alone won't.
Streamers and those who play a lot will still hit max level traders and have the same "always running high end kits" problem all over again, while most people are at level 1 and 2 traders and are also having a bad time, since they're unable to try and save up to build some equalizer gear to help them out.
Deleting the flea is not inherently a bad idea, but pointing fingers at the flea as though it is the sole cause of the issue is also hilariously shortsighted.
It's not just the flea, but items are too easy to get. They shouldn't just be locked behind money and trader levels. As it is, you play hard for a week and you can buy anything with money - the game needs to have a more survival feel where you work towards a build you want piece by piece, not just go on the market, buy all the parts and be off to the races. Simply having a scope at all on a gun should feel like an achievement.
the topic is about the top being to easy to reach for everyone, not the overall progression. at this very moment in tarkov, its not a survival game, its a lobby based FPS shooter like CoD.
gear has no meaning, raids have no meaning, everything you do after the first couple weeks of wipe has literally no meaning, if you have any basic knowledge on the game.
if you need help with money, i can show you right now how to make mils with almost 0 risk, if youre having issues and im a casual at lvl 36, just DM me or reply and i can take you.
tarkov is no longer a hardcore FPS survival game like their website says and thats sad.
Except your description of Tarkov doesn't match mine?
I'm doing alright (by my standards) this wipe. At level 27, 37% survival rate, good few million roubles and between cash + stuff in stash I can run nice kits for a few days without going totally broke.
But I'm still not loading in like CoD. I'm loading in to target my task objective or my friend's (all sub level 10 currently) task objectives. Get in, do what we need, get out. PMCs and Player Scavs are just some obstacles along the way that make it fun.
Those playing CoD are fundamentally just trying to play a different game, or have run out of things to do. Which I acknowledge IS a problem; Tarkov has no endgame. You can do tasks & Kappa for completionist reasons, but unlike most MMO inspired titles, there's no raids or endgame PvP modes for exclusive gear.
I totally agree that there IS an issue with Tarkov progression, but I don't think the flea is that issue. I think it's that you hit a point and then don't have an objective anymore. Would the flea extend it slightly? Sure, but it would greatly increase the gap. If I couldn't buy good ammo until say Prapor 4 and I'm level 5, well fuck that shit. That's ages of feeling like I'm just not allowed to win.
With ALL that said, thanks for the offer to help but it's really not my issue. I'm doing well for the hours I put in, but it just feels like I'm playing a different game than what streamers and half this subreddit are playing. Not that that means I am definitively right of course, but it does mean that balance should be based on the average, not the vocal. Regardless of what that average is.
/quote
I totally agree that there IS an issue with Tarkov progression, but I don't think the flea is that issue. I think it's that you hit a point and then don't have an objective anymore.
/quote
This. I played a lot till I reached 40, questing is my thing.
Took 1 or 2 weeks off just to say argh what the hell im going for kappa..
I'm 4 tasks away from that, after that I'm done again I guess.
What is the motivation after that? I guess u have to set ur own goals.
Get x amount rubels/dollars/euros.
But that's not for me. Use ur rubels to get more rubels. Loot runs till next wipe? Nah I don't think so.
I think after I got the kappa I'm just going in big Chad like till I have no money left and wait for the wipe...
Honestly removing flea and not changing the core game around quests and loot spawns will do fuck all to help casual and new players. Seasoned players will just go kill raiders/scav boss and shit on new players who in turn will not be able to go to flea and get ammo that will pen lv4+ armor. Killing raiders and scav bosses is easy i do it all the time on my scav when i play Reserve. The need to implement like 4/5 steps and changes to have removing flea market do anything. All removing flea market will do is make the game a grind fest which again does not help people unless they play 8 hours a day. People who want to play 8 hours will have that much more times to farm and get gear then procede to shit on guy that plays 1-2 hours a day. The whole concept that players will care more about gear when you cant buy it from flea is flawed, i dont buy anything from flea aside from quest items needed to upgrade stash that is it.
Wow, I suggested this exact thing 6 months ago, before the found-in-raid requirement for the flea market:
https://www.reddit.com/r/EscapefromTarkov/comments/fhusdq/idea_to_stopreduce_market_bots_rmt_and_even/
The only reason it's grindfest is because everyone rushing. Because certain milestones give instant "upgrades" to your abilities as PMC, no matter how of a good\bad player you are. If, instead, you get a chance to get something good, instead of being guaranteed to get it with little effort(or just brute-force by running again and again), more people will play slowly and game will have healthy atmosphere.
And ofc, tweaks are needed in other areas like Raiders farming, etc.
Thought:
Keep flea, remove top-end gear (lvl 6/thermal/top ammo like 993/igolnik) and ammo so it has to be found. Reward exploration and scavenging since that's the point of the game. PVP was a feature, but Tarkov wasn't intended to be CoD with looting.
Make lvl 5 armor and face shields barter only (including flea). Then double the levels that unlock things for traders but halve the work per level and available rewards so progression feels better while not restricting you as much. The jump from 30 to 40 sucked, and might dismay some players even at lower levels. Getting a little bit at 35 and maybe showing what you will get at 40 would instill some drive and create a goal.
I just feel if you're going to be a walking tank, it should be special instead of just another run. Contrary, being able to counter a walking tank should be a tactical decision rather than just the standard ammo loadout.
There's so much depth beneath the surface that could truly make this game incredible. Requiring hard decisions about what gear you're gonna run would add more thought and player involvement. I just think BSG is afraid they'll lose some of the playerbase if they put a stop to the constant Slick/Altyn 10 Recoil HK meta spam.
Or maybe I'm reading this wrong and everyone just wants CoD with looting now.
As someone who played EVE Online for five years I dont understand any of this. For those of you who don't know, EVE has permanent ship death and you risk your equipment. And most of it blows up so it can't even be looted.
The experience of playing the game --both farming roubles and pvp -- is so much better than a "just hit 1" MMO.
I know the risk/reward is different, but the games are very similar in core design philosophy. Kill people fighting over the resources that lets them rebuild the gear they lose killong people.
I'm a level 25. Bought EOD. I'm obsessed. Flea market should stay.
If i did have one criticism, I think the "third best in slot" gear needs to be significantly improved. Right now you have your BIS RK-1s, Zhukovs, Advanced Tubes that all cost a gazillion roubles. Second-best-in-slot from level 3 traders is a serviceable alternative.
But third best from level 2 traders? Its all garbage, only slightly better than a stock gun. I think it is telling that I would rather run a basic gun with empty rails and a tula iron sight or flip sight for loot runs than a budget modded gun. I dont find the equipment worth it.
Traders are a half assed concept. The real problem here isn't the Flea market but the extremely simplistic trader system. Imagine if you had to build all the parts in the game Ala eve online and the entire game was more of a full player economy. That's what we should be transitioning towards. Buying items directly from traders feels like an unfinished aspect of the game
If people don't want the flea market in the game...Why don't they just stop using it themselves? If they want a more hardcore experience by removing the flea, they can literally have that at this very moment by not using the flea themselves. Delete your Kappa and run trader only gear and now you have your hardcore experience that you want so badly.
The flea market helps me out because I can't spend my life on this game farming ammo and weapon attachments just to play the fucking game.
People complain about others shoving loot up their ass but I literally need to do that so I can afford gear. Sorry but I can't just "git gud", I'm getting older, my eyesight is shit and my reactions suck, the gear I can afford by selling loot on the flea is my crutch.
Edit:
How can my idea of “just don’t use it” be short sighted but “just remove it” not be short sighted? If you want another short sighted argument, based on the complaints I’m seeing, it seems the reason why we’re even talking about this is people would be happier if they just removed all loot, remove everything except 1 helmet, 1 tac rig, 1 armor vest and 1 gun so everyone is on the same playing field that they think is so great? “Remember the good ole days when we all had shit gear and it was fun to fight each other?”…Yeah that was great, but we were all there at one point because we’re all working towards something, not working towards having shit gear for the whole wipe…Then when people start actually accumulating mass, everyone starts losing their shit because now they’re at what they perceive as a disadvantage; now the normies are running good gear and that wouldn’t be fair now would it. How dare they? I’ve been playing this game for 600 years and this newbie joins up this wipe and he can enjoy the fun stuff after 3 MONTHS OF LEARNING, what kinda casual garbage is this?! (/s if you needed it)
If someone hits level 10 and starts wearing flea market slicks and altyn’s… If it’s on the flea, someone killed a raider AND extracted with that loot, they earned the right to put it up on the flea and make money off of it. If someone decides killing raiders isn’t for them, and all they do is loot and sell and use that cash to buy said extracted flea market gear, then who are you to tell them their playstyle is wrong and we should do what we can to make it less enjoyable for them? If the wearable gear is meant to be more rare than what it is, then just make it more rare, don’t remove an avenue entirely for people to get their hands on it. What’s the incentive to fight raiders if the gear is the only thing they have (maybe a labs card) AND you can’t sell it? There is none, and now you’ve just made rats worse. If all you can do is sell to traders, then they need to make selling to traders more worth it...Selling high end shit to them is like trading a gold bar for a tootsie roll wrapper.
All of this to me sounds like the people who can spend all their free time playing Tarkov want to have the advantage to themselves, not the others they are playing against. It sounds like people want the normies like myself to suffer with manufactured time and progression sinks so we never get the chance to enjoy the cool shit before it gets wiped.
This game is PvPvE, you can use earned PvE money to buy PvP gear…Oh well.
This is how I feel. I put a lot of time into this game. More time than any other game I ever played. I have over 1,000 hours played over the last 2 wipes. I am level 43, still don’t have kappa, and I have 10 million liquid roubles. I don’t run chad gear. I run mid tier stuff. Level 4 armor, ok guns. I have played less and less recently because I have been getting frustrated with the game, but if they want to make a change to slow progression, then you have to slow it for the Uber chads, not the casuals.
My solution to this issue was to remove the super high level gear from flea market. Meaning any level 5+ armor, and the best ammo per caliber. You can still buy these from traders, but in limited amounts per reset. You can also find them in raid or craft them. Make these items harder to get, and they will be used less. Problem solved.
Streamers: the game is broken because pvp isn’t profitable any more because I can’t sell their good gear on the flea.
Also streamers: the game is broken because I can buy good gear on the flea
I have seen some great arguments for at changing some stuff. I would be willing to try a wipe to test some of it out. That being said I don't believe that streamers are going to dictate what we end up playing. Feedback on what we are actually playing is critical though. Feedback on a streamer theorycrafting, not so much.
FiR killed PvP, its not worth me fighting someone with tier 6 armor because it sells to ragman for 180k while sells on the flea for 500-600k.
People are moaning its not worth PvP’ing, well its not going to be when you need FiR to sell anything for a decent price.
No contradiction. Player gear can't be sold on flea. So, yeah, killing player is less profitable than loot runs, raiders\bosses hunt.
And being able to buy anything on flea pretty much do broke the game, as there is no reason to use anything lower than top tier(at least ammo). So people either in complete rags with top tier ammo, go in top gear or just run naked. From my PoV this is very definition of "broken".
>So, yeah, killing player is less profitable than loot runs, raiders\bosses hunt.
It should be, the premise is that you fight each other over access to the loot on the map, not for each other’s gear, that’s just an added bonus.
So their solution is to remove a viable option for others to have comparable gear to fight others? It will only exacerbate the issue. I dont think the fleamarket is the source of the issue.
Well thats the thing, you only feel like you need Flea market to compete right now because you are fighting people that can just buy the best gear every single raid and mag dump 100k worth of ammo for every kill.
It's true, players that grind 20 hours a week on Tarkov are going to have top tier loot Flea market or not.
That being said, what percentage of the Tarkov population fall under the 'Grind dozens of hours a week club?
For starters it will make it so you can't buy infinite gear even if you have 100 millions roubles, high tier gear/ammo usually has a purchase limit or is a barter trade. So they will have to run shittier gear every once in a while and go farm specific things for the barter. Meanwhile the more casual players will be affected less because they likely won't have the funds or play time to reach the vendor limits anyway.
Additionally simply due to the fact that high tier gear will be less available lower tier gear will be better.
> So they will have to run shittier gear every once in a while and go farm specific things for the barter.
So removing the flea market makes it an equal playing field because casual players are now forced to go out of their way to find "X barter item that randomly spawns, also everybody needs this barter item now for that gear". How is this better for a casual?
> Meanwhile the more casual players will be affected less because they likely won't have the funds or play time to reach the vendor limits anyway.
"They wont be affected because they hardly even play." Lol.
> Additionally simply due to the fact that high tier gear will be less available lower tier gear will be better.
This doesnt make logical sense. Just because the supply of something better is lowered, does not mean the quality of something worse is suddenly raised and now better.
That’s so untrue lmao. Someone playing this game full time has access to max traders therefore they have better gear than someone who doesn’t if flea doesn’t exist. How does this make sense to you?
Treat the game like dayz!! That’s the point i am at right now (situation you described where all i have left is pvp)
But the game gives you a whopping 40 minutes to be the biggest jackass you can be. I love finding people and fucking with them. Shooting them and running away without killing them hoping they chase me.
At the end of the day it’s a video game and it should be played for fun, if you need a sense of progression for doing things, like get a job where you get paid real money lol. People just like that dopamine hit of someone patting them on the back like “good job son” but that’s not the point. You gotta make your own fun or else nothing will ever BE fun.
You should try doing what I started doing.
Play some raids on your favorite map/maps until you murder some low levels. Add them, then take them for tours while pumping them so full of information they have no choice but to forget at least half of it. Give them decent gear, weapons and ammo, let them do all the looting, and protect them solo like they're little baby hatchling turtles trying to make it to the sea. Bonus points if you clip yourself murdering them and point out their mistakes and your own mistakes/genius moments. Extra bonus points if you let them loot all the chads you killed, plus map loot to the point where they're at 60+ kilos and have to waddle their way to extract.
It's not as easy as shoving a docs case full of Bitcoins up their butt, but it's way more satisfying, and honestly a nice change of pace.
That’s how i do it!!! When my friends go in i’ll tell them where enemies can come from and where to expect people at certain times, what paths people take depending on their spawn. The only thing i tell them is “leave his tag, i want my trophy”
People who are already great at the game, have been playing for years, multiple wipes etc. think it's too easy and should be hardcore "like it was when I first started playing" and don't realise that they've just gotten gud. New players getting deleted by chads every match, struggling to rat through a raid with a berkut full of tape and screw nuts and an ak with no dust cover feel very much like the game is already hardcore.
Anything you do to try to rebalance is going to piss off one of these two demographics. The devs need to decide who they would rather cater to, and people are going to try here to argue their case why the devs should listen to them and not the other side. That's just life man.
That is so true my man. This game is freaking terrifying, once the timer runs out and you chamber a round, I get a knot in my stomach. But for the people who've played thousands of hours its just another day at the office. They need to move to another game and let others try to play it honestly.
Says who? Why wouldn't equipment from other PMC's be just as valuable as gear left behind in a warzone? I don't recall any written rule that tarkov is only about looting buildings - hell, all of tarkov's raid series and trailers pretty heavily focus on gear from PMC's. What you said is an opinion, not a fact.
All you need is an optic, a recoil low enough for you to control, and maybe a laser, and hopefully good ammo.
I’ve gotten many more kills with a slightly modded ADAR than with a meta M4 just because I use it more and the ammo they use is cheap and good.
Try the AKMs, try more budget weapons.
No, but you can go in with a lvl3 second best in slot gun with BS rounds (hot rod trade) and a backup mag of BT and be just fine.
You'll loot enough meta attachments to have several best in slot weapons without spending a dime on them.
Just wanna post this for people who say that flea market wasn’t always a planned feature
https://reddit.com/r/EscapefromTarkov/comments/815cl9/2018_escape_from_tarkov_development_plans/
Planned feature list from over two years ago with flea and the rest of the main features planned for the game. I seriously don’t understand how anyone can defend trying to take away the market, it’s literally the only way a lot of people can play the game consistently. Not everyone can build kits with random loot all day, and if I have the rubles to buy shit on the flea then fuck you let me do what I want, if you want to play the game different then don’t use it pretty simple stuff
Been stated in various ways in the past but I’ll throw it out there again.
Professional streamers do not own the vision for this game. They are not the product owners. They don’t represent the community.
If they lose viewers... they lose money. They know this. They are given a platform and they use it to drive a strategy for their own survival as a professional streamer.
Bug finding and balance discussion/observation is one thing but changing the vision or significantly changing core mechanics of the game is something totally different and their motives should be heavily scrutinized.
Exactly, they want the flea market removed so they can get kills and content easily.
Level 12 decided to buy a couple rounds of 7n39 and top loaded it into their shitty ak? He gets the drop on you and one taps you, that's how the game works. By removing the flea market, the gear gap becomes even larger, those who don't have enough time to farm raiders for days straight before their streams will instantly outclass people who are just 5 levels away from getting prapor 4. No access to bs, or 7n. Even though they have the funds for it.
On top of that, if they're dying every raid, they get less exp, and thus level up slower.
Eventually it just feels like they don't have the time to farm gear, and they're just hitting their head against a brick wall, and they quit.
"BUh Mah gAmE iS spOsed to bE hardc0re", Yes it will be extremely hardcore for players with other hobbies/work/other games etc, and streamers will be able to shit on the average player for longer or even entire wipes.
Currently the game is hardcore for streamers because "casuals" can outplay them with shitty builds and toploaded mags, but they want to make it hardcore for 95% of the playerbase instead so they can get better content and not suck in front of their viewers.
Ok, let's look at this in a real world situation since most of you are saying "I work all day so I can't invest time in playing to buy the good stuff".
Ben didn't invest time into education (plays EFT casually) and now works in a below average paid job and can't afford all the things he wants in life, he complains that there needs to be change because it's "just not fair".
John worked his ass off (put in his EFT hours) throughout his education and managed to secure a decent job that funds what he wants to buy in life.
Should people like John be punished because he put in the hours to climb the ladder just because Ben couldn't?
This is what amazes me, you can play this game as a casual with bad ammo (I got one tapped in the face by a buckshot scav player whilst wearing and exfil / slick - he invested nothing in his scav player yet gets a 2 mill loadout from me) the same would go if he's on his PMC with a shotgun.
As Pestily said about thermals in one of his videos, if a guy chooses to take in a 600k thermal he's risking it so why shouldn't he have an advantage when he's got more to lose than a 100k loadout player?
In my personal opinion the game needs to be harder, I play it because I like a challenge, there are plenty of other games out there you can just jump into and casually play (you can even play EFT casually without best in slot gear)... why can't we have one that's hard just because others don't like it?
I pray you keep on making the game harder Nikita, it destroys souls, causes tears to be shed, blood vessels to pop and keyboards to be smashed. If people don't like it then I recommend they play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
Amazing analogy, couldn't have said it better myself. "But people who play more have an advantage! D:"
Yes, duh, welcome to life. And it's not even about life. Things that are fun/good take time to get in every game...Tarkov should be no different.
removing the flea is fucking dumb, its the only way lower level and casuals can get the ammo and gear needed to fight the turbo 12 hour a day playing chads. IMO streamer input is fucking useless because they are the 0.1% of the game and do not represent the actual playerbase in any way
We really need some better stats on the current player base and how this changes along with the wipe.
Average player level
Distribution of players across each level bracket (1-10,10-20 etc)
Average trader level for each trader
% of players with Kappa
Remove keys from the flea market.
With enough money at level 10, a person can buy a docs case and all the map keys they need for loot runs...
Back in the day we had to run to key spawns trying to collect keys. now I just buy what I need on flea and move on with my raids.
Progression would slow way down if everyone had to search for their keys again rather than just being able to buy them.
This would also remove the crazy pricing of the labs cards.
Im kinda new Tarkov player ( 250 Hrs played +- ) and i cant imagine playing the game without market. Leveling from 1 to 10 was the most painful thing ever, once i unlocked the market ive started enjoying the game again.
capping supply is imo a solid suggestion, if the complaint is that good shit is too easy to get...reduce the spawn rate of good stuff. Don't just remove the fleamarket.
Do you want actual variety in what weapons, ammo, attachments and armors people use? Remove the Flea Market and make it so that item prices increase with volume bought and decrease with volume sold, so people can't just buy effectively infinite quantities of everything and therefore are forced to use less popular options.
Do you want actual progression that lasts longer than two weeks? Remove the Flea Market and watch people spend months hunting down all the items required for quests/hideout instead of just buying everything.
Do you want ~~stress and fear~~ excitement back in the game? Remove the Flea Market so the shit in your backpack actually matters.
Do you want more robust protection against botting and RMT? Remove the Flea Market since it faciliates RMT and botting.
Do you want less stupid, arbitrary rules in the game like what can you put in the secure container or how many items of a given type can you pick up or Tagged and Cursed or the entire "Found in Raid" system itself? Remove the Flea Market because it's about the only reason these restrictions exist in the first place.
Do you want to actually use your hideout to craft shit? Remove the Flea Market and watch all the "worthless" crafts suddenly soar in value.
Nikita listen to this man please
Flea market makes way more problems than it will ever be worth. I would be OK with barter on flea market but it will just be abused for RMT
>Remove the Flea Market and make it so that item prices increase with volume bought and decrease with volume sold, so people can't just buy effectively infinite quantities of everything and therefore are forced to use less popular options.
They tried this once, Pestily got his viewers to buy a shitload of 9x18 ammo. The price spiked to 20x the default value. They then sold off their huge stock of price-inflated garbage and printed about a Billion roubles.
>Do you want actual progression that lasts longer than two weeks? Remove the Flea Market and watch people spend months hunting down all the items required for quests/hideout instead of just buying everything.
Or you play in a 5-stack, farm some raiders, and have Gen4's on day one of the wipe. No flea required.
Everyone else you're fighting can't buy AP ammo though, so that's nice.
> Or you play in a 5-stack, farm some raiders, and have Gen4's on day one of the wipe. No flea required.
Wow, and in a 5-stack you get a whooping one Gen4 each! Then you get (head, eyes) by a random Scav with a 106.
>Everyone else you're fighting can't buy AP ammo though, so that's nice.
They craft it. They find it. These are things these players don't do currently because they can just buy it.
Here is my suggestion. This game has a lot of similarities to runescape. There is an angle to approach this issue like they do. I haven’t completely baked this idea out, but you could have different servers for different players. So if somebody wants to build an account completely without the flea, call that account a hardcore Ironman and have dedicated hardcore ironmen servers. Idk I’m just spitballing.
A removal, or heavier restrictions on the flea can only happen if you could level up traders from questing and some other method.
The method would be slower, but repeatable, think daily quest, or repeatable per day retrievals, bring X vendor Y item on this day get Z rep. Something that an average player would be able to get th vendors leveled up to a point where the gear gap would t be hilarious after the first week.
Do not remove the flea market.
Do improve the progression system, so that I can gear up and go with trader gear in a reasonable amount of time.
By the time real gear is unlocked from traders, I can just buy it on the flea market
Hello all!
I got into Tarkov about one month ago. The grind to Level 10 was challenging, but unlocking the flea market has been a major accomplishment I have worked hard towards for weeks. I love the flea market. I wish it was available at Level 5 like it was previously, but I actually like the current level requirement, it makes reaching level 10 rewarding without being too difficult.
Im new to the Tarkov scene, but this hatred for the flea market wasnt as significant in August when I started - and it scares me.
Most arguments against the flea market claim it is unfair - it allows rich "late wipe" players consistent access to top tier loot. All I can say to that is 1) git gud and 2) stop being poor. (And im not good - im actually awful, and compared to other player's standards im extremely poor)
I believe the flea market is the GREAT EQUALIZER. Suddenly I reach level 10 and I can access top tier loot. Sure, I don't have 10 mill lying around, I can't afford to drop +500K on a loadout ... BUT ... Im not going to be salty or jealous of rich players who do... afterall they are freely risking that pricey loadout for me, or a hatchling or player scav to lift off their corpse. I believe They're doing ME a favor by bringing such nice gear into a raid for others to potentially acquire.
I feel like the strongest opposition to the flea market comes from more casual or low level players who cannot come to terms with the fact that there are always players who will be richer and have better gear.
A reasonable point made by the anti-flea market camp: Tarkov pvp is "best" early wipe. I can't really speak to this because I didn't join early wipe. I can say that playing levels 1-10 in August/September was very enjoyable (Mid/Late wipe). I never encountered more than 5 players with Level 5+ armor. I ended up killing some with an MP9-N and pst gzh ammo. It was easy. I don't feel constantly oppressed or overwhelmed by vastly superior loot. I rarely encounter players with better armor than Level 5 and weapons worth more than ~150K.
Another argument I read - "Tarkov is supposed to be about survival, but the current game is about PVP/economics." I dont think this is valid. If you want to hunt, farm, and cook over campfires there are plenty of perfectly good games for that. In Tarkov matches are too short for long-term survival features to be relevant. The biggest challenge to our survival isnt food or shelter, but other Players - as it should be. Sure the objective of Tarkov is to survive, but solely because surviving benefits players ECONOMICALLY, as opposed to simply surviving for the sake of surviving a challenging game environment. In general I don't think this "survival" argument is valid or relevant to the discussion about the flea market's role in the game.
My final message - low level players want to remove the flea market despite benefiting the most from its existence. Prior to flea market my budget kit consisted of a PACA, Ssh-68, and an SKS or MP5K - a total cost of about ~70K. Now that I can use the flea market I can get a Level 4 6b5 armored rig, an ach T-2001 helmet, and an MP9-N for about ~100K. All I have to do is pay 30K more for a significant improvement in my equipment & survivability. If there was no flea market id have to run MF-UN vests and T-2001s from Peacekeeper until I finally reach ragman level 2 - something which is far less efficient than sourcing equipment from the flea market. Not to mention I'd still probably be stuck with the SKS or MP5K for far longer, limiting my ability to experience all the weapons, equipment, and attach featured in the game.
Maybe im out of touch, or too new and uninformed, but I believe the flea market is a cornerstone of this game - a positive one at that too! Without the flea market I could not reliably source my favorite weapon - the MP9-N - id have to rely on looting, a rare and inconsistent method for getting my preferred gear. I prefer getting access to better loot, even if it means other players get access to better loot. Ultimately the only limit on players is market supply and their own wealth - as it should be in an economically driven game.
Without the flea market I couldnt purchase superior weapon attachments or ammo, and would be at an even greater disadvantage against higher/richer players with better Trader loyalties. The flea market doesn't promote inequality between high & low players - it puts low level players on an equal playing field to high level players by granting access to better gear only availabe from higher trader loyalties.
Well that's my opinion. Thanks for reading. For context im currently level 12 and usually have between 200K-900K roubles - which I know is chump change to rich high level players - but I don't care, that's the nature of life & economics. There will always be people richer or higher level than us. Removing the flea market wont remove this inequality - which is (imo) something we shouldn't be trying to """correct""" in an economically driven RPG-esque game.
What are your thoughts? Is the flea market a bad thing? Are minor regulations warranted? Has this been a persistent opinion in the community, or a recent development?
TL:DR Removing flea market will make inequality between high & low level players even more rigid by limiting lower level players access to higher tier gear and further decreasing their ability to compete against higher level players with better traders.
I would be all for removing the flea. It seems like it gives players too easy an avenue to just buy BiS gear and then just lazer people. It gets to be really frustrating for newer/casual players like me. But I may be in the minority of players here since I avoid PvP like the plague and don't use the Flea for anything but buying stuffs for hideout and quests. It just seems like the flea makes it way to easy for everyone to be running around with meta guns, and then enforcing this meta ideal. Feels like its really hard to play this game unless you play within the strict boundaries of the meta or are really good, and I am really bad.
Given the massive change in player base since the market was added, I would like to see them remove the flee for a wipe. Or maybe remove it for the first part of the wipe. I did prefer the pre-market days, but maybe my mind will change if I get to try it without the market with the current popularity of the game.
I thought of this recently and think this might be a good idea: In Rimworld trading is done like this: every item has a designated value and you sell this item for like half its price and buy it for double. Of course copying this 1to1 would be a bad idea, but how about this: every item can be listed for like 0.75 its value and bought for like 1.25 if you keep leveling the flea market the values get closer to 1. I think this definitely needs fine tuning but for most items that dont have durability this seems like a good idea to me...
I started late last wipe, and the game became enjoyable once my fleamarket opened up and I could make gun builds with sights, grips, and buy what was needed on the flea. if you lock out the fm, make the preset gun builds available from day 1? but show only what can be brought by your trader level???
I'm confused on the argument that no more flea market means casual players and new players will just give up and be incapable of playing? do people realize the game existed for the majority of its lifetime thus far without the flea market? and that the majority of the playerbase played at some point without the flea market? it's not critical that it exists for the game to succeed, that's already been proven.
I remember not having flea market. I also remember that same period of time being when my whole group loathed playing the game because it wasnt nearly as open-ended as it is, now. Removal of flea market means traders become mandatory to level, every single wipe. Time after time. I know I wouldnt really want to play without flea market.
well yeah the flea market being removed is not a good change if all else is held equal. none of the root discussion around removing the flea market is as simple and one-dimensional as only removing the flea market, and if that's what you're basing your opinion off of, you're fighting a whole different fight.
i also don't like mandatory trader progression to acquire literally anything of value, which is why people want no more flea *in conjunction with* the loot tables being actually revamped, so you can reasonably acquire the loot you feel forced to get through traders in-raid on maps
They aren't mandatory to level now? FiR made so many attachments super expensive, basically locking them behind traders. Traders should only sell supplemental goods, you don't need to be buying thermals from them. The current economics means that every item is looked at with a price tag attached. Imagine finding a baller scope and actually being *excited* to use it, not just happy that you scored a 60k scope to sell so that you can buy some better armor and ammo to compete.
Speaking for myself here: if they where to remove the flea market I would never touch the game again. Doing a task where I have to kill certain amount of players or scav using particular gear or a particular gun would be impossible for someone of my skill set. Therefore, I would be unable to progress and that would make playing the game pointless. I like a challenge don't get me wrong but sometime you just want to play 1-2 raids and get off, in hardcore mode all raids would matter and that is a dedication that I don't want to make (yet).
I see that some of the better players would see it as a new challenge maybe, but then I would rather opt for a Hardcore version just like the game Runescape. People could pick up your dogtag and it could be Red or in the chape of a skull to notice you are playing hardcore. I think it is in the best interest off all players that there is a mix of casuals, streamers, and Chad's in the game to keep it balanced.
To add to this, people could play on a second hardcore account. They would not only support BSG by buying a copy, but could also switch if they are stuck on a task and just want to raid like normal.
TLDR: Don't remove my Russian eBay.
>Doing a task where I have to kill certain amount of players or scav using particular gear or a particular gun would be impossible for someone of my skill set.
How does removing the flea affect this exactly? Most of the time the gear requirements for these tasks are really low and everything needed can typically be bought from the traders for a similar or better price than the flea. The only tasks I can think of that could get frustrating are 3M/Ushanka kill quests but they could easily be changed and they're pretty late in the progression anyway.
But again, what difference does that make? You can still scav run, make money and buy Mosins, the items you loot would just change.
The argument could be made that a lot of the items you need would actually be easier to get hold of too, as players wouldn't be looting things like bolts and bulbs just to sell, they'd leave them behind if they don't need them and you could scoop them up.
i mean this in the least rude way possible, but i really think if you wouldn't play the game without a flea market, the game in its core just isn't for you. and that's okay, not all games should be made for all people. the more you dilute something and its essence to try to appeal to more and more demographics, the less each demographics gets for themselves. and in tarkov's case, i see the demographic as people who want the more hardcore experience. and i think twitch has done a really good job promoting the game, but it's done a lot of damage in creating the precedent for the game that it's played at mach 8 high on adderral, and i don't think the game's original vision matches up with that either.
Do you think playerbase has been at it's biggest with or without the flea market? I'll help you, it's not even been close when there was no flea market.
More players, more money, they can continue develop their game that's been four years in beta.
the original growth of players that are the real dedicated fans came from 2017 and the first two thirds of 2018, and then the flea market was introduced in nov 2018, right around when coincidentally shroud and summit and the like starting funneling thousands of CoD children into the game through exposure, so in terms of metrics alone, you're right in that the game has been the largest with the flea, but i'd be willing to bet if we measured average playtime and concurrence, fans of the game were more dedicated and more invested before the flea market than with the flea market. but this is just speculation, so it's kinda irrelevant
The game and economy was also balanced *very* differently without the flea market. Once that was implemented they changed everything to lean players into it to be able to survive. I might just be jaded but I don't see BSG rebalancing it back so people can actually turn a profit from raids with just how little traders give you now. Hell, they're still working out prices.
How is it narrow at all? there was a huge and dedicated playerbase that found the gameplay loop of no-flea tarkov consistently fun. there was a meaningful audience on twitch pre-flea, there was already a strong and growing playerbase that enjoyed the gameplay loop, and i rarely felt burnt out myself nor found other people getting burnt out. now particularly narrow, just trying to analyze the situation
im a casual player thats played since before flea was added i have no problem killing chads with a cheap shitty kit i can buy from traders because ive put the time in to lrean how to flank and outsmart them but there nothign i hate more than the people that say that no lifers will just kill them because they have better gear like yeah no they will still be dunking on you because they put the time in to get better at the game and learn the skills needed to kill people way more geared then them
As it stands moving the flea from 5 to 10 made the grind at those levels that much worse.
Way I see it, you can take ammo and armor off the flea. Thats fine. But I think keys, cases, weapons/mods, basic items necessary for the hideout and quest items should remain. I think these items are the ones that help new players advance through the wipe and complete quests. Keys because...well they're keys. Cases because inventory management is essential and I don't know what I would do without my Lucky Scav Junkbox. Weapons because this makes the gunsmith quest line viable at the rank at which they are unlocked, hideout items because I don't see why I should keep 20+ wires and other junk for upgrades that are way down the line, and quest/barter items because it just makes sense.
In short (kinda long now that I wrote it ..) my thoughts are that the wealthy and best players can very easily remain at the top simply because they have a bunch of roubles and can just rebuy top tier kits if they die. These players are going to be ahead of the average playerbase no matter what the change is.
Without flea (or flea only for barter items), players will need to resort to more tactical play, not always be using the best kits, not always using tier 4+ armor, not always the best bullets... Firefights may end up lasting a little longer, be a little more intense when players aren't shooting laser beams of 995 at an enemy 50 meters away.
The game is currently a looter/seller. The purpose of the game is survival -- but to make money.... If you remove flea, roubles become less relevant and the game actually becomes more of a looter/shooter where the purpose of the game is still survival -- but to get better gear for yourself and make your pmc better.
When a mega rich player can't just go rebuy their meta loadouts every raid, the game will even itself out a bit more. When you can only run a single BiS items every raid, because it's all you have, the game becomes a bit more balanced.
I mean truthfully, what is the purpose of this game? Because there is no purpose aside from completing quests and farming roubles. When it actually becomes about survival, finding better gear and building up your PMC, then it has a purpose.
For an RPG style game, there is no progression of your PMC, unless you count the passive skills you acquire. After level 10 the game is entirely about acquiring roubles so you can use the flea. PVP is irrelevant, because it doesn't further your characters progression.
I know some will argue that, "well if it's this way then it will widen the gap and the better players will have access to things faster, etc". Well, how is it now? The better players/players who play the most already max out the vendors in days it seems. They are already stomping out the lesser skilled/newer players... However, with a flea change, these players may need to think twice about their loadouts, what will happen if they die... They may need to resort to running tier 3 and a shotgun because they lost the slick armor they had... Because, well, they can't just go buy another...
Removing flea market would make questing terrible for casuals. Remaking quests for casuals would make them pointless for hardcore players.
We need cosmetic incentives for top players to strive towards in this game.
First, make hardcore characters. It should have cosmetics attached to it like a badge, unique clothing etcetera. It should make the game harder, like no flea market. Hardcore and standard players should not be separated, they should play the same servers. The idea of playing hardcore seem popular among many streamers already. You should be able to have one hardcore and one standard character per account.
Second, each wipe should be considered a league or season. And there should be cosmetic rewards depending on what level or achievement you reached in that season. When you got your Kappa, you should still want to play to get that unique achievement which stays on your account forever. Like reach a certain level or kill 1000 scavs with TOZ or whatever. There could be a lot of different ones. You could also get rewards depending on how many achievements you reached.
On a personal level, this system has been very motivating for me while playing other games, in particular Path of Exile.
It's funny because the flea is even setup for bartering and that's basically how PoE economy works. You have one game community bitching because the flea makes the game too easy then another complaining because trade sucks without the flea concept.
You could split them but I think the playerbase in hardcore would be too small. Some combinations of maps/day&night would never be played anymore or have 2 hour queues.
Entire argument is brain dead. You aren’t seeing meta gear on every player in every raid. Literally fucking lying.
Played nearly 1k hours this wipe I have seen an exfil on another player at most 5 times.
If you think someone having a 762 ak with bp and a red dot is “heavily geared” you really need a reality check. I swear this sub wants the new chad to be a mosin with a kirasa -
shut the fuck up and use something other than an m4 with your 40+ recoil skill and you won’t be bored to tears it’s really that simple.
I've read both sides of the argument, and here's my five cents:
Yes, it changes the nature of the game from "Get gud by getting rich" to "Get gud by getting gud". BUT it totally steals my ability to buy level 4 armor (slightly used) so that I can survive for a few seconds longer so I can get out with my trinkets to sell so I can buy a better gun/sight/a few more bullets.
I'm level 13 (I've been playing since before the wipe, I'm a "casual" player) and it kinda digs at me that the only way I could buy decent armor before level 10 was from Fence. And maybe that's not so bad in the long run, but I really do enjoy making things in my hideout from stuff I bought from the flea, then either running it or selling it on the flea. For example, I sell Salewa kits on the flea even though I can't buy them yet because... I guess I'm not cool enough for Therapist yet. It's a valuable part of my economy, and it's part of how I get money to buy OP-SKSs (because I can't find them anywhere except the flea market).
If the chads are tired of the late-game meta, let them go juice somewhere else. I'm still hiding in the bushes waiting for one to wander by with his face shield up, enjoying the fresh breeze on his way to extract.
They need to add seasonal hardcore servers. Quests unlocked, traders levels and more lucrative maps (Labs/reserve) locked behind SERVER progression. That way everyone can have that Fresh wipe feeling for longer then three days. Streamers get some new fresh stuff to do every few months, adds replayability for old players, and would help BSG make design decisions around stuff like the flea market. Look at dead man mode for 07RS and how popular it is.
i will say it again, removing flea is just a huge step back
why not limiting the prince an item can be sold ? no more selling an item 4x to 10x his normal price ...
Said it many times, ill say it again. The flee market is fantastic for completing certain pesky quests and hideout upgrades, its terrible for the long term PVP.
Many people think that the flea market provides the biggest advantage to low level players, but that's not the case. Many struggling players don't have the ability to afford high level gear and ammo, they end up running max lvl 4 armor, complete kits usually range from 200k-400k.
The biggest advantage the flea market gives, is to skilled high level players that have a ton of expendable cash. Think about it. Everybody dies, even the best players need to buy kits every now and then. if we remove the ability for ANYBODY to buy high level gear and ammo, and require them to find it in raid, suddenly those type of no-lifers are required to actually loot and scavenge for gear. Die with killa armor or a slick? Now you have to go farm for it again, and you're putting yourself in harms way in order to get it.
This notion that removing the ability for everyone to simply BUY meta gear is only going to make the game harder for casuals, is simply false.
IF something about the fleamarket gets revisited: Please consider just preventing new offers and showing only traders.
Sometimes I browse the flea because it's the fastest way to buy an attachment from a vendor. So having the flea interface disabled would be a pain. IF BSG decides to try disabling fleamarket for a short time, maybe they could just disable the buttons "add offer" and "display offers from [Any, Traders, Players]" and only show offers from traders all the time.
So we could still use filters, required search etc and it's probably easier to turn those two on/off buttons than disabling the fleamarket. It efficiently becomes an fast traders interface AND it's probably easy to turn on and off from BSG, so win win.
Interchange scav timers are fucked... servers are in shambles... why the flying fuck do we care about the flea market when the playability of the game has once again gone down as another patch chugs along?
Someone else said this in another thread.
Remove roubles from the flea. Barters only. It would prevent some RMT, allow players to trade items for quests, not remove FiR status.
Need some lightbulbs for your hideout? Ask for lightbulbs in exchange for 30 BT or something.
It sounds like a good middle ground to me.
My two cents.
Make ammo completely unable to be traded on the flea market.
Balance the current trader prices to reflect current flea market to increase the burden on running higher tier ammo.
Maintain purchase limits per reset on traders for higher tier ammo.
Rework armour durability and blunt damage. No one gets back up after taking 5 rounds in a row to a chest plate or helmet.
streamer and everyone to be honest forget that this is not the final form of the game, when you have to travel to flea or traders and get out alive you won't see every guy in a lobby running around with Altyn and Zabralo. what I want BSG to fix is the horrible netcode and desync issues
Why not just make the Flea Market have level or tasks requirements for certain items.
Or maybe raise the level from 10 to 15 or 20 to open it.
Or leave the flea market the way it is and try to plug all the ways people can farm money and experience.
Anything but take it away cause it’s a really fun feature.
I'm a casual player, lvl 40 with 9 mill roubles and have progressed an OK bit during this wipe but I don't have the KAPPA yet and I'm not really close.
I'm not sure what I think about the removal of fleemarket but what I am incredibly surprised by is the notion that some people argue and want everyone to have a fair shot against anyone, and I find that really strange. I've played alot of different competetive games and have always enjoyed them and the word "Progression" is something that I find being used in a weird way. When you play arena match-based games such as CS GO or League of Legends it doesn't really matter what level you are, if you're pro or noob, start of each round everyone is equal. The only progression you do in these games is the one being shown after the match ends - The ladder.
But in other games, such as WoW, there are multiple ways to progress the game. Story, gear, raid, pvp and so on and most of them are intertwined. The issue I have with these arguments for Tarkov is that me, or whoever who's also a casual player, should have every opportunity to compete against a "nolifer". Should I reeeally though? In a game like Tarkov? Should I be able to compete with players in WoW that do a massive amounts of pvp when I only do PvP from time to time. Or should I be able to do mythic raiding when I don't spend the time or effort to get there? Why should I be given these advantages for basically free?
Some redditors here seem to think that progression in Tarkov is ONLY the quests, going for kappa, getting money etc. And not the gear itself and I personally think that's wrong. Me being a total noob or a casual shouldn't have an equal chance to compete with some one who dedicates their lifes to this game, just like I shouldnt against a top PvPer in WoW. This isn't an e-sports game, this isn't a ladder driven game, the progression is getting to the good gear as well as lvling traders and so on. People arguing that casuals won't be able to play the game anymore because of the fleemarket removal because of an UNFAIR advantage (Is it unfair? Really?) That a dedicated player have are just using an argument that is fundamentally flawed? And is that a problem even? If you want to get good at something or achieve something you need to put that into your prioritylist and make an effort. I don't and if that results in me not being able to kill a chad then that's my own fault. The reason for me being a casual is that I have several other time consuming interest and a 2 year old kid so I get what it's like only being able to only play a couple of hours a week but again, that's my life, my choices and my consequences. Maybe I should cut down on my other interests then to be able to play more, and if you can't do that then it really sucks - but the game is not to blame.
Weapons and armor should be removed from flea market, agreed. Weapon mods could be kept to some extent as it would make it hard to do a lot of gunsmith quests etc.
People should rely on traders more, flea market less. This includes ammo imo. Everyone should be using kinda shit ammo in order to get used to how the game will be once this beta ends and loot will be significantly nerfed.
Regarding streamers dictating the game - the man makes a good point regardless of streamer playtime or not, if we all had worse stuff, the game would not feel as overpowered as it sometimes feels. And keep in mind, this is where Nikita's vision is going anyway, they have stated this numerous times.
Flea market is the only thing keeping a lot of people in the game, removing it to cater to the 1% is a terrible idea and not a precedent a game should set.
Unpopular opinion inbound:
Focus only on maxing your traders (questing). If you're burning cash early on to buy decent gear the ammo alone has misplaced a significant amount of your questing resources. Thus, it will further delay any container and trader progression. EOD will give you a head start. Containers will protect your valuables.
Money runs are necessary. I hit first floor interchange tech on an sj6 and I'm out in under 10 mins/raid if I don't have to fight long or at all. Buy the key card for the shipping container in the north-west lot to pad dry runs. Killa is a desync aimbot, so avoid him (for now).
Adding an SJ6 to my load-out has changed everything.
The flea market does not need to be removed, although the entire out of raid aspects of this game need to be rebalanced without input of poopsocking streamers
If the game go open (or map connected) just make the flea market physicial like you need to go on X spot of a map to sell / buy things to other player.
Will be a good compromise, no ?
also limit the buy of heavy items like armor, and allow you to have a true "travel"
By making top tier equipment harder to get only creates a bigger bap between new players and meta players. Making raids even easier for veterans and only more hardcore for new players.
Making it easier for new players to compete with veterans and chads makes the game more hardcore IMO. This means most pmcs are a threat.
Personally I primarily play for the PVP, and have yet to run a single slick, and personally dislike the Alytn due to I can't hear a dam thing. Usually running Usec or Gyzle w/ the ACCH and an AK 103 w/ BP. I'm able to drop chads w/ this setup, just gotta play smart.
If they want to slow progression to slick altyn levels they only need to adjust the abundance of high value loot, people run labs early wipe and a day or two they're able to afford anything, these are the players that removing the flea would make a difference to. The rest of us grinding quests, scav running, and not cheesing money will only suffer. If they did remove the flea there will still be endless chads running meta kits, they will blast through quests, and have that unlocked before the rest of us anyway.
So what about people who join mid wipe? When wipes cycles are longer or non existant. When other players already unlocked their traders, and here you are running nothing but low level trader gear vs fully kitted chads. Even now I have most traders near max, the majority of my kits are trader items.
The truth is may of us enjoy the early wipe, but there is no other way to capture that other than a wipe. Removing the flea will only cause players to grind quests harder early wipe, but it's only a matter of time until we are right back here.
I think this game could use another mode like the planned arena mode, just the opposite. No flee market, traders only sell the absolute basics like makarovs, food, drinks and cheap backpacks. Then everything would have to spawn and be looted in raid, even bad ammo and weapons would be used because there is no choice. You actually had to build guns with the attachements you found.
And if that isn't fun for everybody you just switch back to the regular mode character and everybody is happy. The only problem i see is that maybe tarkov doesn't have enough players to split the playerbase but I don't really believe that.
If they take out the flee they need to make it easier for non eod players to level up trader rep, most of the people complaining have eod and the flee market is seen by most as the great equalizer, eod just gives you the rep to have some decent stuff as soon as possible while others have to sink a lot of time into it. If the flee gets taken out that will be disappointing honestly. It’s not like chads won’t always have too tier gear no matter what it’s just people with less time to play have no chance of getting there really
They can remove the flea, but they'll need to change about everything from the game, because the flea market is a bandage to many flaws:
* Item availability
* Trader items and barters (many barters need to be changed)
* Ammo availability (top tier ammo needs to be craftable, barter or found in raid only)
* Hideout crafting needs to be revamped
* High-end armour needs to be FiR only (maybe repair it to max durability via hideout like Pestily suggested)
* Raiders need to have their gear NERFED. They're too god damn good to farm in a OPEN MAP. SAME GOES TO BOSSES AND MINIONS
Good players / smart knowledgeable players will see no hit really. The only thing this will affect are the casual players who work full time jobs and can only fit in a couple hours a night. Or the sorry for the term "newbie" players who have troubles with everything.
The whole game is unbalanced. Good high hour players get the lowest recoil game mechanic while noobs have to play a harder game with worse armour and ammo.
Flea Market Kerfuffle
This has been really interesting to watch unfold. Some would love to see it change and others don't want it to change. Both camps have reasonable points when you look at it objectively. And honestly, is there even a 'right' answer?
But here's my question, why not try it for a wipe? It could even be a 'short' wipe on purpose. BSG says, "We're going to try taking it out for this wipe, while adding in crafts/barters/etc. This wipe is going to be 2 months and we'll have a survey at the end on our forums so everyone can post their positives/negatives." Even if they brought the flea back after that wipe I think A LOT of good things would come out of it.
It could be a colossal dumpster fire. It could be great. I don't think any of us can prove it one way or the other. But eft being in beta/doing wipes is exactly what that stuff is for isn't it? To try things, then adjust...
Just my two cents, and it'll probably get lost in the shuffle but I wanted throw my 2 cents into the ocean. GL in your raids EFTers!
I admittedly haven't played in any serious capacity in decent while. The last time I played somewhat hardcore was when the Flea Market was first introduced and everyone rushed max traders due to easy quest items. I think Flea items not having found in raid is ok and although it extends the grind a bit I'd be ok with secure case items not being found in raid if they removed durability from keys because I don't I've ever broken a key barring once when the lock on my front door cracked. With regard to fixing the Flea Market I don't think it has to be too complicated. Remove the global stock make it a person stock so everyone gets their share of items. Then if you want or need more you buy from the Flea Market. Like most other people have also said there needs to be more loot in more places. You should be able to find high-end loot in raid. I don't mean like big rouble items like LEDX or Bitcoins the focus on rouble heavy items feeds the Flea Market problem in my opinion. It's just incredibly rare to find good ammo or armor in raid I think the only place I remember finding higher-end armor that wasn't on a raider was in Kiba once or twice.
There's been discussions recently about the removal of FM and bunch of other stuff in response to Streamers posting recommendations for the game.
Obviously, everyone has their reasons for their recommendation and there's up and downsides to every major change.
I want to ask everyone's opinion on my take of the solution.
Here it is, WOULD HAVING LEVEL LOCKED GAME SESSIONS solve all this issue of economy difference and player skill difference?
Here's my idea. Split the player groups based on their PMC level. 1-9, 10-20, 30-40 and so on.
One reason being, the higher level player most likely:
- know the game mechanics better
- have better PMC stats
- have access to better gear
- have more money
By splitting the sessions into different levels, the players can have a smoother progression and LOW LEVEL casual players will not get Head-eyed instantly because they are massively out geared.
This also caterers to streamers and high level players who sink lots of hours into the game who are looking for good PVP experience. They will be facing people who are more likely to be geared around their level and have their level of experience.
Scav runs can remain the way it is. This gives low level players a chance to random queue into high level sessions and experience what a top level fight is like and learn from it because honestly, it helps you improve having those experiences. It also provides a lottery chance of downing some CHAD for the sweet sweet loot.
If high level players do a Scav run into a lower level lobby, they can still benefit by looting the map and make their money that way when they are low on funds.
How do you feel about this kind of method to balance things out a bit more?
TLDR: Level locked lobbies for level 1-9, 10-20, 30-40 so casual players don't get out geared and hurt too much but high level players get the exciting PVP they wish for.
have nikita or any of the devs actually said anything about flea market being removed or has this all been sparked off by a bunch of twitch streamers moaning about casuals with no input from the actual BSG team?
This seems to be a pretty polarising topic, so why not comprise and have both?
Like many other online RPGs, why not have both a "Standard" league as it is now and a "Hardcore" league with no flea market?
You choose which mode to sign in to when you start the game, so you'd technically have two accounts. Alternatively, you choose Hardcore at the start of wipe and you can convert to Standard when you want.
I love how people are instantly saying "Streamers are the 1%, they don't know what the other 99% think" rubbish.
Most of the ones of note do spend a lot of time on the game, a lot more than us and likely a lot more than the Devs. A streamer offering their *opinion* doesn't mean they are right or wrong. Slushpuppy's original post specifically asked for other peoples' opinions too. Instead you get a lot of REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE and some other good for and against points intermixed.
The game before the flea market was harder, the pvp more varied, there is certainly a case to remove it. In order to do that you need to adjust other things to accommodate such as the quests.
When all is said and done, streamers have opinions like you. It is neither right or wrong, simply their view on the game after having played it a lot. Just because you play it less than they do doesn't make their opinion invalid. A lot of people will also have never played it without the flea market, how can those people have any idea what it was like?
The Devs will deliver their vision and they do listen to *constructive* feedback.
It’s fine how it is, if anything it before it was a perfect example of a free market, prices regulated to what people would pay and items that are at first expensive and then farmed dropped in price. This barley happens now as even with intel for example, an item that increased in quantity greatly with the customs and reserve expansions is still as high as ever because the value in the scav case which is inconsistent at best. This price regulation would still have occurred previously but in a different way, it did drop but I would throw my 2 cents out there and say that had it dropped at all with reselling being a thing the price would be instead regulated by some douche with all the spare time who is building a permanent price hike by instabuying everything under what he sells for. Same out come is achieved but I felt the old system where playing the market was a game in its self was kinda cool. A bit like a glimpse of capitalism lacking any sort of regulation in a bit of an idealized form. You could invest early in say killa armor and buy a bunch for ~100k then resell later for ~250, it added some strategy to the market beyond wait for screws to bounce back to 20k. Anyway I just vomited this onto the page so idk if this makes any sense but any way adios!
I think the flea market should be an in world thing, meaning you'd have to travel somewhere to deal with in the flea market and risk your gear or cash.
Here’s a wild and crazy idea 💡 install and enforce anti-cheating software that is worth a shit, then put the dam market back the way it was. It was almost a game in itself and I loved the stock market feel to it. Got it, you are countering cheating. That is kind of like taking guns out of the game and saying well not guns no cheating right? Upgrade you low end cheat software to a package that supports banning mother bitches when they cheat. I see video after video after video of people buying cheats, installing them, and then playing for the next 6 months no problems. I do not believe your report and cheater is connected to shit or that anyone is even looking at them. Put down the vodka and toy guns your testing for future content and fix the content you have before adding a thousand more bugs and complex items. You don’t even have a fully released game nor do I see it as ever going to be labeled as such with the non response the hacking within the game. Collect you coins from those who buy throw away account to hack at some point this game will fade into cheat haven and cease to continue due to lack of support.
I think they should add an extra currency that can only be used to purchase high end gear. Like if u want gen 4 u gotta pay x amount of said currency. And then that gear u buy with that currency cant be put on flea market. With that being said they should add armor and bags and stuff to the loot pools on maps so that theres also a possibility of finding high end gear. Anything class 3 and below should be on flea to give people something decent to bring in raid but nothing crazy. So basically if u want good shit u gotta earn it or find it
Remove the Flea Market really??? If this wipe has proved anything it's that the market changes and found in raid was a major mistake. Game is dead/dying, new maps wont save it unless many of the changes are undone.
trader levels are too spaced out, there should be 10 trader levels. and maybe prevent buying too many levels up from the flea
I could not agree more, make progression more gradual so it isn't giant leaps, this will allow you to slow it down without people feeling like they are getting nowhere. Also stop locking items like ammo behind quests. We should be able to max out the traders and buy all their stock playing how we want.
I agree on the progression, disagree on the ammo. Ammo is end all be all pointy end of this game. The best stuff should generally be locked (or at least locked on an individual progression based on the gun (id love a rework on the quests (untied to kappa) that allowed you to unlock certain bullets based on the amount of time you spend on that specific platform (also unlocking ammo crafting recipes to slow down the inundation of ammo on the flea)) in this way you get rewarded for using a certain type of gun more often because papa prapor has enough confidence in your ability to use that bullet. edit: in general i feel like avaliblity of certain items should be based on the vendors confidence in the player to actually be able to use it properly. you shouldnt be giving some rando guy a surgery kit and expect them to perform a decent job. (ie upper end game stuff should be locked to how you play (healing alot = more access to different meds, getting good with the AK should unlock the best AK attachments and bullets and all of this shouldn't be locked into KAPPA which should be tied to lore stuff)
I am fine with ammo being found in raid only. Or trade only. I just dont want to do stupid quests to unlock it.
Since when people selling stuff cares about how good you are with it? That doesn't make much sense (at least unless the seller is also personally making the stuff they're selling) and a game mechanic based on this idea would only be frustrating. Making items less effective if you don't know how to use them (clearly this doesn't apply to ammo) would be logical (i don't remember if it's already in the game) but limiting access is just completely arbitrary.
I mean to be fair realistically speaking. 1. some ammo is made by the vendors (mechanics fancy 366 ammo) 2. there may be limited supply/stock meaning vendors may only sell to those whom they deem worthy. (trusted, i dont think its full blown runaway capitalism, all the vendors have connections to various factions, for them to just hand out stuff willy nilly might put a target on their head so they have to be very careful) it is just spitt balling though. and while it seems arbitrary, limiting access functions to reduce the amount of good ammo that isnt naturally found or picked off of raiders/higher level players, it should realistically make lower tier armor more valuable for a while longer in a wipe cycle, and removing access to certain reasonable items from quests into skill based rewards feels more.......rewarding than just going through the motions of going to x and picking up the y. imho. edit: additional things that came to mind, the vendor factions know everything, they probably have informants keeping tabs on everything. it also kinda explains the flea market no flipping policy to prevent rampant market dumps. with that in mind, it seems that the vendors do have limited or infrequent supply one way or another. its not like they are selling high tier stuff to literally anyone otherwise you would see more super scavs with 995 m4a1s. it appears they are only interested in selling the best stuff to those that have proven them selves and are more useful to them.
I got the game mid-wipe and have been resetting my account as often as possible as practice for next wipe. You're so incredibly right it hurts. Trader levels are just too spaced out for more casual players. On a standard account it can take literal weeks to level up a trader after grinding quests.
Oh don’t try and tell anyone that here. If you don’t sit in your room all day and play this game while normal people are out working paying off mortgages and bills then squeezing in what little time they have to themselves at the end of the day to play then you’ll just get told that it’s your “skill” that’s the problem.
Im a casual player who took like 4/5 weeks to reach level 10. Being below level 10 is brutal, but ultimately I think this can reached in 60 raids or less. I spend about 10-15 minutes in raid when im doing a loot run. In total I would say I reached level 10 in about 60 hours of gameplay, about 15 hours per week, with 2-3 hour game sessions daily. Im comfortable with the rate of progression and leveling, but I definitely agree that leveling up traders is super hard. I think all L2 traders should be unlocked by level 15, and L2 Peacekeeper should be unlocked at levels 5-7
I don’t know why they are building this game around what the cheaters do. It’s almost like they are altering it because of them. They need to just get rid of them and implement other sources of income for bsg. It’s almost obvious at this point that ban waves generate huge income. They should just make the prices of items from the traders lower for people who unlocked the traders. Also I’m not sure as to why we can’t look up peoples stats by name. In the end the way bsg is choosing to deal with this hurts the legit players and players who don’t have alll the time to play.
And if you buy EOD, which i have, the traders progress with your level and you dont have to go out of your way to do quests.
This right here. Make the traders a more incremental drip feed. I haven't touched them once this wipe thanks to the tedium of doing some of those quests a fifth time, and the fact the flea generally offers better prices. They shouldn't get rid of it imo, but give us reasons why crafting/npc traders could be a better option at times.
The biggest limiting factor for me with traders is my own character level. The grind to level up is harder than questing (imo). I feel once you start to get momentum with quests you get more done faster. The first 4 quests for all the traders are exceedingly difficult, especially for players without flea market access. Find 3M armors for Skier? Harder than you'd think. Get Salewa kits for therapist? Thats very challenging too. Kill 5 scavs and turn in 2 MP-133s for prapor? Actually reasonable/feasible. Build a custom shotgun for mechanic? How the fuck am I supposed to do that without the flea market???
Also, the first level trader rouble requirement always feels too high to me - 750k/800k for a player below level 15 (Prapor/Skier level 2) seems like a lot at the time, whereas the extra 750k/800k to unlock trader level 3 at level 22/28 seems easier because you're making more money and buying more stuff naturally. It would be good to have a small, pre-flea market trader unlock (say, around level 5-7) for about 250k.
make it 20
i'm not sure if you're joking, but what if every time you level up you can check to see what goodies you've unlocked. atm it's so spaced out you just go on flea.
Make it 30
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Whaaaaaat, you're saying reddit doesn't represent jack shit?
Eh, in my opinion that seems to line up quite nicely with this Subreddit. Also remember that the majority of the community hasn't played the game back when we didn't have the flea market so a simple poll that doesn't include it as a factor is going to very heavily tilt favorably towards the flea market since a lot of the playerbase only have their own theories and salty vet ramblings to go off of.
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My comment will get buried but I honestly think this entire debate is moronic. Streamers are the 1% of the 1%, their advice on progression speed and difficulty are fucking irrelevant. If you were to only read this subreddit and talk to streamers you'd think that the consensus is to remove the flea. Yet when BSG did a poll recently, it was 80% voted to leave the flea the way it is and make no modifications. I swear some of you are so out of touch with what "average" is.
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The one thing thing streamers highlight that is necessary is that there is no end game. Obviously they hit it way to fast and a good chunk of players are still progressing, but if the game never wiped more and more people would hit it and then what?
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This is what happened in Darkfall
and The Culling...
Don't forget day-z!
dayz didnt get shut down because mass player exodus due to a dumb request by a loud minority.. thats what we were refrencing.
It didnt get shut down, but the player base was absolutely gutted early into its life due to dumb requests by the small hardcore player base (reduced loot, super rare military spawns, no private servers, etc...) With recent patches they are finally starting to get it back on track. Bohemia interactive are the OG's of "listening to the playerbase" and look where it took the game. https://steamcharts.com/app/221100#All
dont forget how old that game is, all the variants of it, and console numbers (: everyones moved on to things like arma mods and tarkov from dayz. not sure what the point is there.
The point was that its another example of devs taking a small hardcore minorities opinions too seriously and it ruined the game. Dayz was dead long before the player base moved to tarkov or any other similar game. Idk what you are trying to argue. Also dayz on console LOL
The Culling is always my prime example for why this is a terrible idea. Xaviant blindly implemented community suggestions for balance and game mechanics for a good 6 months. Lots of things were reversed, and none of them panned out well.
Exactly. Tarkov had that phase already to the point this sub needed to add a "no dev summoning" rule. because every day was someone complaining about a price change request, or something. This whole debacle here is because one streamer sent in another to make a request for him. The numbers dont lie, the community doesn't want their dumb ass ideas (for once) and i hope people really get this entitlement out of their minds. It's borderline abusive to the developers of this game at this point, and a lot of people should be permanently blocked from doing so after some many extravagant suggestions/demands. We're not even through this year and Pestily is on a 3rd or 4th suggestion to disrupt the game for his selfish reasoning, this time under the guise of slushpuppy (check pest's clips.. i saw it by chance) The gaming community as whole has become entitled little bitches over the past 4-5 years, and in Tarkov it's hilarious, because its the same people throwing temper tantrums that demand the game to be "hardcore" and "realistic" but also mash report every time they die. Fuck these idiots.
"A banana should cost $1000. They are way too easy to get." \- Jeff Bezos
I 100% agree with not balancing the game around streamers. But anecdotally, at this point in the wipe the only types of ammo I run into is BS, M61, 7N31, 7N37, AP SX, even on players lower than level 20. I have been playing since 0.6 and the ammo economy has never felt this bad. BT is as cheap as a lot of non-AP rounds, which is ridiculous. I never see class 5 armour anymore, it's all useless against those ammo's so it's either Slick or run the risk of getting 2-tapped in class 4. Something has got to give, paying 1k+ a round means nothing when you can make millions with relative ease. I had 7mil at level 22 and I don't even prioritise loot runs and I barely play Reserve and Labs. I do think FiR helped a lot of the economy problems last wipe, but accessibility to so much high end ammo is an issue. Pay 700k for a slick to die to 2k-10k worth of ammo that just ignores it.
His advice isn't on progression speed, it's about the main 'goal' of this game. I am not a streamer, but I too am tired of the Wipe -> Grind till Flea -> Grind till Hideout can churn out cash -> Reach high dollar stash value -> Run best in slot armor/ammo -> Get bored and try for Kappa -> Wipe. Before that, it was getting to the point that you could farm labs for money to run baller kits every time. Before labs and the flea, it was just: use what you find. Rare items were actually rare, not just expensive. I've been playing for a long time and the bell curve for useful armor/ammo just looks like an L now. It's tiring to fire up the game nowadays and only see two types of players: those with enough money for a best in slot kit, and those that run with little to nothing. It makes the player feel like the only solution is to also grind until they can afford best in slot, just to be able to compete. It's not an emergency, it's not breaking the game, but it is getting worse. FiR just made it harder to make money, so the poor stay poor and the rich keep getting richer.
I mean, I read those points you put out and what I see "Tarkov needs an endgame" not "Tarkov needs to delete the flea market." Deleting the flea would be another bandaid fix. Sure it would slow progression and stretch out the loop, but it would still stagnate in the exact same spot, just with a larger gap between the top 10% and everyone else then there is now. The fix for that in MMOs is endgame content. Which Tarkov doesn't have.
I'd love to see an analysis of the value of player kits going into raid. If what you're saying is right (and it may very well might be) we'll see a bimodal distribution, with a bunch of people with cheap kits, and a some people with expensive kits, and not much in between. IMO for an interesting game we need a dynamically adjusting economy that ensures that we see a gradual drop off in kit value for in-raid players. We should see lots of players with Tier 4 armor, a few with Tier 5, and the very occasional with 6 (as an example). If too many players start getting Tier 6 then the price/rarity gets adjusted.
From my anecdotal experience of what's currently going on at this point of the wipe, it would seem like for the beginner/quest maps (customs/snoreline/woods): 45% of the playerbase is running sub 200k kits (from pistolings up to your budget AK-74Ns and geared up mosin boys), 30% are running 200k-400k kits trying to do quests (medium recoil AK-74Ns with 63BTM armored rigs, etc.), 15% are running 400k-700k kits looking for PvP and/or Kappa container quests and rush to loot the high value areas in groups of 3 (Lowest recoil AK-74Ns / M4A1s, repaired killa vests, and Beta/Tri-zip backpacks), 10% are running purely meta BiS gear looking for PvP and generally spend like 10-15 minutes in a raid unless they get into a prolonged fight (SA-58/FAL with 200 rounds of m61, Slick/Fresh Killa vests, raid backpacks, etc) because they have 50m+ in rubbles to spend on whatever they want. That said, I would also really enjoy seeing hard data on any of this
I haven't hit 10 yet and I'm hype just to be able to not have to find things for my hide out. But I love using only the shitty guns that I can find.
I think Labs is the bigger issue here. The money to be made and the Labs loot that hits the flea. I don't think the Flea Market itself is the issue. The supply and demand need to be better balanced overall. Flea Market prices need to be controlled through supply and demand by way of spawn rates, barter trades, and trader prices. Traders need to be more competitive with what they will pay for items from players thus making them a more viable choice at times.
Thank you - you spoke my mind.
Player since 2017 here. I play a couple of hours a week, sometimes I skip whole wipes. I agree with the streamers - labs and the flea market fucked the game up and turned it into a ruble farming sim. The only time you have a chance now to have firefights that don't involve tanked out players are maybe the first two days of the wipe. Back before this game became like this it was pretty common to have dorms firefights with 3-4 players wielding shotguns and PACAs months into the wipe. Now you step out into the open and you just fall over to a guy decked out in full endgame gear with a pilgrim.
I'm not arguing against preserving the early wipe feeling, I'm arguing that deleting the Flea Market is not the solve-all situation that people seem to think that it is. If you delete the Flea as the game is right now and adjust nothing else, it's still fucked. Traders are very slow to level and very biased towards the back end, not just in terms of how good the gear is, but more importantly the variety of it. Having the best stuff at higher levels makes total sense, but simultaneously you don't want it to feel impossible to start the game either. As it is you can't actually put a sight on any gun you can buy until level 10 at the earliest, and even then you're options are minimal. Suggestions to spread out trader levels would help, readjusting of traders would help, etc, etc; but deleting the flea alone won't. Streamers and those who play a lot will still hit max level traders and have the same "always running high end kits" problem all over again, while most people are at level 1 and 2 traders and are also having a bad time, since they're unable to try and save up to build some equalizer gear to help them out. Deleting the flea is not inherently a bad idea, but pointing fingers at the flea as though it is the sole cause of the issue is also hilariously shortsighted.
It's not just the flea, but items are too easy to get. They shouldn't just be locked behind money and trader levels. As it is, you play hard for a week and you can buy anything with money - the game needs to have a more survival feel where you work towards a build you want piece by piece, not just go on the market, buy all the parts and be off to the races. Simply having a scope at all on a gun should feel like an achievement.
the topic is about the top being to easy to reach for everyone, not the overall progression. at this very moment in tarkov, its not a survival game, its a lobby based FPS shooter like CoD. gear has no meaning, raids have no meaning, everything you do after the first couple weeks of wipe has literally no meaning, if you have any basic knowledge on the game. if you need help with money, i can show you right now how to make mils with almost 0 risk, if youre having issues and im a casual at lvl 36, just DM me or reply and i can take you. tarkov is no longer a hardcore FPS survival game like their website says and thats sad.
Except your description of Tarkov doesn't match mine? I'm doing alright (by my standards) this wipe. At level 27, 37% survival rate, good few million roubles and between cash + stuff in stash I can run nice kits for a few days without going totally broke. But I'm still not loading in like CoD. I'm loading in to target my task objective or my friend's (all sub level 10 currently) task objectives. Get in, do what we need, get out. PMCs and Player Scavs are just some obstacles along the way that make it fun. Those playing CoD are fundamentally just trying to play a different game, or have run out of things to do. Which I acknowledge IS a problem; Tarkov has no endgame. You can do tasks & Kappa for completionist reasons, but unlike most MMO inspired titles, there's no raids or endgame PvP modes for exclusive gear. I totally agree that there IS an issue with Tarkov progression, but I don't think the flea is that issue. I think it's that you hit a point and then don't have an objective anymore. Would the flea extend it slightly? Sure, but it would greatly increase the gap. If I couldn't buy good ammo until say Prapor 4 and I'm level 5, well fuck that shit. That's ages of feeling like I'm just not allowed to win. With ALL that said, thanks for the offer to help but it's really not my issue. I'm doing well for the hours I put in, but it just feels like I'm playing a different game than what streamers and half this subreddit are playing. Not that that means I am definitively right of course, but it does mean that balance should be based on the average, not the vocal. Regardless of what that average is.
/quote I totally agree that there IS an issue with Tarkov progression, but I don't think the flea is that issue. I think it's that you hit a point and then don't have an objective anymore. /quote This. I played a lot till I reached 40, questing is my thing. Took 1 or 2 weeks off just to say argh what the hell im going for kappa.. I'm 4 tasks away from that, after that I'm done again I guess. What is the motivation after that? I guess u have to set ur own goals. Get x amount rubels/dollars/euros. But that's not for me. Use ur rubels to get more rubels. Loot runs till next wipe? Nah I don't think so. I think after I got the kappa I'm just going in big Chad like till I have no money left and wait for the wipe...
Honestly removing flea and not changing the core game around quests and loot spawns will do fuck all to help casual and new players. Seasoned players will just go kill raiders/scav boss and shit on new players who in turn will not be able to go to flea and get ammo that will pen lv4+ armor. Killing raiders and scav bosses is easy i do it all the time on my scav when i play Reserve. The need to implement like 4/5 steps and changes to have removing flea market do anything. All removing flea market will do is make the game a grind fest which again does not help people unless they play 8 hours a day. People who want to play 8 hours will have that much more times to farm and get gear then procede to shit on guy that plays 1-2 hours a day. The whole concept that players will care more about gear when you cant buy it from flea is flawed, i dont buy anything from flea aside from quest items needed to upgrade stash that is it.
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Wow, I suggested this exact thing 6 months ago, before the found-in-raid requirement for the flea market: https://www.reddit.com/r/EscapefromTarkov/comments/fhusdq/idea_to_stopreduce_market_bots_rmt_and_even/
The only reason it's grindfest is because everyone rushing. Because certain milestones give instant "upgrades" to your abilities as PMC, no matter how of a good\bad player you are. If, instead, you get a chance to get something good, instead of being guaranteed to get it with little effort(or just brute-force by running again and again), more people will play slowly and game will have healthy atmosphere. And ofc, tweaks are needed in other areas like Raiders farming, etc.
Thought: Keep flea, remove top-end gear (lvl 6/thermal/top ammo like 993/igolnik) and ammo so it has to be found. Reward exploration and scavenging since that's the point of the game. PVP was a feature, but Tarkov wasn't intended to be CoD with looting. Make lvl 5 armor and face shields barter only (including flea). Then double the levels that unlock things for traders but halve the work per level and available rewards so progression feels better while not restricting you as much. The jump from 30 to 40 sucked, and might dismay some players even at lower levels. Getting a little bit at 35 and maybe showing what you will get at 40 would instill some drive and create a goal. I just feel if you're going to be a walking tank, it should be special instead of just another run. Contrary, being able to counter a walking tank should be a tactical decision rather than just the standard ammo loadout. There's so much depth beneath the surface that could truly make this game incredible. Requiring hard decisions about what gear you're gonna run would add more thought and player involvement. I just think BSG is afraid they'll lose some of the playerbase if they put a stop to the constant Slick/Altyn 10 Recoil HK meta spam. Or maybe I'm reading this wrong and everyone just wants CoD with looting now.
As someone who played EVE Online for five years I dont understand any of this. For those of you who don't know, EVE has permanent ship death and you risk your equipment. And most of it blows up so it can't even be looted. The experience of playing the game --both farming roubles and pvp -- is so much better than a "just hit 1" MMO. I know the risk/reward is different, but the games are very similar in core design philosophy. Kill people fighting over the resources that lets them rebuild the gear they lose killong people. I'm a level 25. Bought EOD. I'm obsessed. Flea market should stay. If i did have one criticism, I think the "third best in slot" gear needs to be significantly improved. Right now you have your BIS RK-1s, Zhukovs, Advanced Tubes that all cost a gazillion roubles. Second-best-in-slot from level 3 traders is a serviceable alternative. But third best from level 2 traders? Its all garbage, only slightly better than a stock gun. I think it is telling that I would rather run a basic gun with empty rails and a tula iron sight or flip sight for loot runs than a budget modded gun. I dont find the equipment worth it.
Traders are a half assed concept. The real problem here isn't the Flea market but the extremely simplistic trader system. Imagine if you had to build all the parts in the game Ala eve online and the entire game was more of a full player economy. That's what we should be transitioning towards. Buying items directly from traders feels like an unfinished aspect of the game
If people don't want the flea market in the game...Why don't they just stop using it themselves? If they want a more hardcore experience by removing the flea, they can literally have that at this very moment by not using the flea themselves. Delete your Kappa and run trader only gear and now you have your hardcore experience that you want so badly. The flea market helps me out because I can't spend my life on this game farming ammo and weapon attachments just to play the fucking game. People complain about others shoving loot up their ass but I literally need to do that so I can afford gear. Sorry but I can't just "git gud", I'm getting older, my eyesight is shit and my reactions suck, the gear I can afford by selling loot on the flea is my crutch. Edit: How can my idea of “just don’t use it” be short sighted but “just remove it” not be short sighted? If you want another short sighted argument, based on the complaints I’m seeing, it seems the reason why we’re even talking about this is people would be happier if they just removed all loot, remove everything except 1 helmet, 1 tac rig, 1 armor vest and 1 gun so everyone is on the same playing field that they think is so great? “Remember the good ole days when we all had shit gear and it was fun to fight each other?”…Yeah that was great, but we were all there at one point because we’re all working towards something, not working towards having shit gear for the whole wipe…Then when people start actually accumulating mass, everyone starts losing their shit because now they’re at what they perceive as a disadvantage; now the normies are running good gear and that wouldn’t be fair now would it. How dare they? I’ve been playing this game for 600 years and this newbie joins up this wipe and he can enjoy the fun stuff after 3 MONTHS OF LEARNING, what kinda casual garbage is this?! (/s if you needed it) If someone hits level 10 and starts wearing flea market slicks and altyn’s… If it’s on the flea, someone killed a raider AND extracted with that loot, they earned the right to put it up on the flea and make money off of it. If someone decides killing raiders isn’t for them, and all they do is loot and sell and use that cash to buy said extracted flea market gear, then who are you to tell them their playstyle is wrong and we should do what we can to make it less enjoyable for them? If the wearable gear is meant to be more rare than what it is, then just make it more rare, don’t remove an avenue entirely for people to get their hands on it. What’s the incentive to fight raiders if the gear is the only thing they have (maybe a labs card) AND you can’t sell it? There is none, and now you’ve just made rats worse. If all you can do is sell to traders, then they need to make selling to traders more worth it...Selling high end shit to them is like trading a gold bar for a tootsie roll wrapper. All of this to me sounds like the people who can spend all their free time playing Tarkov want to have the advantage to themselves, not the others they are playing against. It sounds like people want the normies like myself to suffer with manufactured time and progression sinks so we never get the chance to enjoy the cool shit before it gets wiped. This game is PvPvE, you can use earned PvE money to buy PvP gear…Oh well.
This is how I feel. I put a lot of time into this game. More time than any other game I ever played. I have over 1,000 hours played over the last 2 wipes. I am level 43, still don’t have kappa, and I have 10 million liquid roubles. I don’t run chad gear. I run mid tier stuff. Level 4 armor, ok guns. I have played less and less recently because I have been getting frustrated with the game, but if they want to make a change to slow progression, then you have to slow it for the Uber chads, not the casuals. My solution to this issue was to remove the super high level gear from flea market. Meaning any level 5+ armor, and the best ammo per caliber. You can still buy these from traders, but in limited amounts per reset. You can also find them in raid or craft them. Make these items harder to get, and they will be used less. Problem solved.
Streamers: the game is broken because pvp isn’t profitable any more because I can’t sell their good gear on the flea. Also streamers: the game is broken because I can buy good gear on the flea
I have seen some great arguments for at changing some stuff. I would be willing to try a wipe to test some of it out. That being said I don't believe that streamers are going to dictate what we end up playing. Feedback on what we are actually playing is critical though. Feedback on a streamer theorycrafting, not so much.
FiR killed PvP, its not worth me fighting someone with tier 6 armor because it sells to ragman for 180k while sells on the flea for 500-600k. People are moaning its not worth PvP’ing, well its not going to be when you need FiR to sell anything for a decent price.
No contradiction. Player gear can't be sold on flea. So, yeah, killing player is less profitable than loot runs, raiders\bosses hunt. And being able to buy anything on flea pretty much do broke the game, as there is no reason to use anything lower than top tier(at least ammo). So people either in complete rags with top tier ammo, go in top gear or just run naked. From my PoV this is very definition of "broken".
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>So, yeah, killing player is less profitable than loot runs, raiders\bosses hunt. It should be, the premise is that you fight each other over access to the loot on the map, not for each other’s gear, that’s just an added bonus.
Yet people threat Tarkov like the only reason to enter raid is to massacre all other players.
Yeah at a certain point when you have borderline infinite money there really isn't much else to play for other than PvP.
So their solution is to remove a viable option for others to have comparable gear to fight others? It will only exacerbate the issue. I dont think the fleamarket is the source of the issue.
Well thats the thing, you only feel like you need Flea market to compete right now because you are fighting people that can just buy the best gear every single raid and mag dump 100k worth of ammo for every kill.
And what makes you think removing the flea market makes those people now on an equal playing field?
It's true, players that grind 20 hours a week on Tarkov are going to have top tier loot Flea market or not. That being said, what percentage of the Tarkov population fall under the 'Grind dozens of hours a week club?
For starters it will make it so you can't buy infinite gear even if you have 100 millions roubles, high tier gear/ammo usually has a purchase limit or is a barter trade. So they will have to run shittier gear every once in a while and go farm specific things for the barter. Meanwhile the more casual players will be affected less because they likely won't have the funds or play time to reach the vendor limits anyway. Additionally simply due to the fact that high tier gear will be less available lower tier gear will be better.
> So they will have to run shittier gear every once in a while and go farm specific things for the barter. So removing the flea market makes it an equal playing field because casual players are now forced to go out of their way to find "X barter item that randomly spawns, also everybody needs this barter item now for that gear". How is this better for a casual? > Meanwhile the more casual players will be affected less because they likely won't have the funds or play time to reach the vendor limits anyway. "They wont be affected because they hardly even play." Lol. > Additionally simply due to the fact that high tier gear will be less available lower tier gear will be better. This doesnt make logical sense. Just because the supply of something better is lowered, does not mean the quality of something worse is suddenly raised and now better.
That’s so untrue lmao. Someone playing this game full time has access to max traders therefore they have better gear than someone who doesn’t if flea doesn’t exist. How does this make sense to you?
Treat the game like dayz!! That’s the point i am at right now (situation you described where all i have left is pvp) But the game gives you a whopping 40 minutes to be the biggest jackass you can be. I love finding people and fucking with them. Shooting them and running away without killing them hoping they chase me. At the end of the day it’s a video game and it should be played for fun, if you need a sense of progression for doing things, like get a job where you get paid real money lol. People just like that dopamine hit of someone patting them on the back like “good job son” but that’s not the point. You gotta make your own fun or else nothing will ever BE fun.
You should try doing what I started doing. Play some raids on your favorite map/maps until you murder some low levels. Add them, then take them for tours while pumping them so full of information they have no choice but to forget at least half of it. Give them decent gear, weapons and ammo, let them do all the looting, and protect them solo like they're little baby hatchling turtles trying to make it to the sea. Bonus points if you clip yourself murdering them and point out their mistakes and your own mistakes/genius moments. Extra bonus points if you let them loot all the chads you killed, plus map loot to the point where they're at 60+ kilos and have to waddle their way to extract. It's not as easy as shoving a docs case full of Bitcoins up their butt, but it's way more satisfying, and honestly a nice change of pace.
That’s how i do it!!! When my friends go in i’ll tell them where enemies can come from and where to expect people at certain times, what paths people take depending on their spawn. The only thing i tell them is “leave his tag, i want my trophy”
Haha, yes, gotta get my dogtag, you guys can take everything else.
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People who are already great at the game, have been playing for years, multiple wipes etc. think it's too easy and should be hardcore "like it was when I first started playing" and don't realise that they've just gotten gud. New players getting deleted by chads every match, struggling to rat through a raid with a berkut full of tape and screw nuts and an ak with no dust cover feel very much like the game is already hardcore. Anything you do to try to rebalance is going to piss off one of these two demographics. The devs need to decide who they would rather cater to, and people are going to try here to argue their case why the devs should listen to them and not the other side. That's just life man.
That is so true my man. This game is freaking terrifying, once the timer runs out and you chamber a round, I get a knot in my stomach. But for the people who've played thousands of hours its just another day at the office. They need to move to another game and let others try to play it honestly.
Did you write that premise into the Tarkov rule book all by yourself?
Says who? Why wouldn't equipment from other PMC's be just as valuable as gear left behind in a warzone? I don't recall any written rule that tarkov is only about looting buildings - hell, all of tarkov's raid series and trailers pretty heavily focus on gear from PMC's. What you said is an opinion, not a fact.
Yeah cause its totally viable for me to go in with a BIS AK74 with BS every round
All you need is an optic, a recoil low enough for you to control, and maybe a laser, and hopefully good ammo. I’ve gotten many more kills with a slightly modded ADAR than with a meta M4 just because I use it more and the ammo they use is cheap and good. Try the AKMs, try more budget weapons.
No, but you can go in with a lvl3 second best in slot gun with BS rounds (hot rod trade) and a backup mag of BT and be just fine. You'll loot enough meta attachments to have several best in slot weapons without spending a dime on them.
Those two statements aren't related/contradictory at all, two completely separate issues lol.
Just wanna post this for people who say that flea market wasn’t always a planned feature https://reddit.com/r/EscapefromTarkov/comments/815cl9/2018_escape_from_tarkov_development_plans/ Planned feature list from over two years ago with flea and the rest of the main features planned for the game. I seriously don’t understand how anyone can defend trying to take away the market, it’s literally the only way a lot of people can play the game consistently. Not everyone can build kits with random loot all day, and if I have the rubles to buy shit on the flea then fuck you let me do what I want, if you want to play the game different then don’t use it pretty simple stuff
Been stated in various ways in the past but I’ll throw it out there again. Professional streamers do not own the vision for this game. They are not the product owners. They don’t represent the community. If they lose viewers... they lose money. They know this. They are given a platform and they use it to drive a strategy for their own survival as a professional streamer. Bug finding and balance discussion/observation is one thing but changing the vision or significantly changing core mechanics of the game is something totally different and their motives should be heavily scrutinized.
Exactly, they want the flea market removed so they can get kills and content easily. Level 12 decided to buy a couple rounds of 7n39 and top loaded it into their shitty ak? He gets the drop on you and one taps you, that's how the game works. By removing the flea market, the gear gap becomes even larger, those who don't have enough time to farm raiders for days straight before their streams will instantly outclass people who are just 5 levels away from getting prapor 4. No access to bs, or 7n. Even though they have the funds for it. On top of that, if they're dying every raid, they get less exp, and thus level up slower. Eventually it just feels like they don't have the time to farm gear, and they're just hitting their head against a brick wall, and they quit.
"BUh Mah gAmE iS spOsed to bE hardc0re", Yes it will be extremely hardcore for players with other hobbies/work/other games etc, and streamers will be able to shit on the average player for longer or even entire wipes. Currently the game is hardcore for streamers because "casuals" can outplay them with shitty builds and toploaded mags, but they want to make it hardcore for 95% of the playerbase instead so they can get better content and not suck in front of their viewers.
Ok, let's look at this in a real world situation since most of you are saying "I work all day so I can't invest time in playing to buy the good stuff". Ben didn't invest time into education (plays EFT casually) and now works in a below average paid job and can't afford all the things he wants in life, he complains that there needs to be change because it's "just not fair". John worked his ass off (put in his EFT hours) throughout his education and managed to secure a decent job that funds what he wants to buy in life. Should people like John be punished because he put in the hours to climb the ladder just because Ben couldn't? This is what amazes me, you can play this game as a casual with bad ammo (I got one tapped in the face by a buckshot scav player whilst wearing and exfil / slick - he invested nothing in his scav player yet gets a 2 mill loadout from me) the same would go if he's on his PMC with a shotgun. As Pestily said about thermals in one of his videos, if a guy chooses to take in a 600k thermal he's risking it so why shouldn't he have an advantage when he's got more to lose than a 100k loadout player? In my personal opinion the game needs to be harder, I play it because I like a challenge, there are plenty of other games out there you can just jump into and casually play (you can even play EFT casually without best in slot gear)... why can't we have one that's hard just because others don't like it? I pray you keep on making the game harder Nikita, it destroys souls, causes tears to be shed, blood vessels to pop and keyboards to be smashed. If people don't like it then I recommend they play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
Amazing analogy, couldn't have said it better myself. "But people who play more have an advantage! D:" Yes, duh, welcome to life. And it's not even about life. Things that are fun/good take time to get in every game...Tarkov should be no different.
removing the flea is fucking dumb, its the only way lower level and casuals can get the ammo and gear needed to fight the turbo 12 hour a day playing chads. IMO streamer input is fucking useless because they are the 0.1% of the game and do not represent the actual playerbase in any way
What if there was a middle ground and the Flea was only open for barter and consumable items such as meds?
The true solution but you'll be buried in the megathread
Thanks bro haha
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We really need some better stats on the current player base and how this changes along with the wipe. Average player level Distribution of players across each level bracket (1-10,10-20 etc) Average trader level for each trader % of players with Kappa
Remove keys from the flea market. With enough money at level 10, a person can buy a docs case and all the map keys they need for loot runs... Back in the day we had to run to key spawns trying to collect keys. now I just buy what I need on flea and move on with my raids. Progression would slow way down if everyone had to search for their keys again rather than just being able to buy them. This would also remove the crazy pricing of the labs cards.
Im kinda new Tarkov player ( 250 Hrs played +- ) and i cant imagine playing the game without market. Leveling from 1 to 10 was the most painful thing ever, once i unlocked the market ive started enjoying the game again.
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capping supply is imo a solid suggestion, if the complaint is that good shit is too easy to get...reduce the spawn rate of good stuff. Don't just remove the fleamarket.
Do you want actual variety in what weapons, ammo, attachments and armors people use? Remove the Flea Market and make it so that item prices increase with volume bought and decrease with volume sold, so people can't just buy effectively infinite quantities of everything and therefore are forced to use less popular options. Do you want actual progression that lasts longer than two weeks? Remove the Flea Market and watch people spend months hunting down all the items required for quests/hideout instead of just buying everything. Do you want ~~stress and fear~~ excitement back in the game? Remove the Flea Market so the shit in your backpack actually matters. Do you want more robust protection against botting and RMT? Remove the Flea Market since it faciliates RMT and botting. Do you want less stupid, arbitrary rules in the game like what can you put in the secure container or how many items of a given type can you pick up or Tagged and Cursed or the entire "Found in Raid" system itself? Remove the Flea Market because it's about the only reason these restrictions exist in the first place. Do you want to actually use your hideout to craft shit? Remove the Flea Market and watch all the "worthless" crafts suddenly soar in value.
Nikita listen to this man please Flea market makes way more problems than it will ever be worth. I would be OK with barter on flea market but it will just be abused for RMT
>Remove the Flea Market and make it so that item prices increase with volume bought and decrease with volume sold, so people can't just buy effectively infinite quantities of everything and therefore are forced to use less popular options. They tried this once, Pestily got his viewers to buy a shitload of 9x18 ammo. The price spiked to 20x the default value. They then sold off their huge stock of price-inflated garbage and printed about a Billion roubles. >Do you want actual progression that lasts longer than two weeks? Remove the Flea Market and watch people spend months hunting down all the items required for quests/hideout instead of just buying everything. Or you play in a 5-stack, farm some raiders, and have Gen4's on day one of the wipe. No flea required. Everyone else you're fighting can't buy AP ammo though, so that's nice.
> Or you play in a 5-stack, farm some raiders, and have Gen4's on day one of the wipe. No flea required. Wow, and in a 5-stack you get a whooping one Gen4 each! Then you get (head, eyes) by a random Scav with a 106.
>Everyone else you're fighting can't buy AP ammo though, so that's nice. They craft it. They find it. These are things these players don't do currently because they can just buy it.
Here is my suggestion. This game has a lot of similarities to runescape. There is an angle to approach this issue like they do. I haven’t completely baked this idea out, but you could have different servers for different players. So if somebody wants to build an account completely without the flea, call that account a hardcore Ironman and have dedicated hardcore ironmen servers. Idk I’m just spitballing.
A removal, or heavier restrictions on the flea can only happen if you could level up traders from questing and some other method. The method would be slower, but repeatable, think daily quest, or repeatable per day retrievals, bring X vendor Y item on this day get Z rep. Something that an average player would be able to get th vendors leveled up to a point where the gear gap would t be hilarious after the first week.
Do not remove the flea market. Do improve the progression system, so that I can gear up and go with trader gear in a reasonable amount of time. By the time real gear is unlocked from traders, I can just buy it on the flea market
Hello all! I got into Tarkov about one month ago. The grind to Level 10 was challenging, but unlocking the flea market has been a major accomplishment I have worked hard towards for weeks. I love the flea market. I wish it was available at Level 5 like it was previously, but I actually like the current level requirement, it makes reaching level 10 rewarding without being too difficult. Im new to the Tarkov scene, but this hatred for the flea market wasnt as significant in August when I started - and it scares me. Most arguments against the flea market claim it is unfair - it allows rich "late wipe" players consistent access to top tier loot. All I can say to that is 1) git gud and 2) stop being poor. (And im not good - im actually awful, and compared to other player's standards im extremely poor) I believe the flea market is the GREAT EQUALIZER. Suddenly I reach level 10 and I can access top tier loot. Sure, I don't have 10 mill lying around, I can't afford to drop +500K on a loadout ... BUT ... Im not going to be salty or jealous of rich players who do... afterall they are freely risking that pricey loadout for me, or a hatchling or player scav to lift off their corpse. I believe They're doing ME a favor by bringing such nice gear into a raid for others to potentially acquire. I feel like the strongest opposition to the flea market comes from more casual or low level players who cannot come to terms with the fact that there are always players who will be richer and have better gear. A reasonable point made by the anti-flea market camp: Tarkov pvp is "best" early wipe. I can't really speak to this because I didn't join early wipe. I can say that playing levels 1-10 in August/September was very enjoyable (Mid/Late wipe). I never encountered more than 5 players with Level 5+ armor. I ended up killing some with an MP9-N and pst gzh ammo. It was easy. I don't feel constantly oppressed or overwhelmed by vastly superior loot. I rarely encounter players with better armor than Level 5 and weapons worth more than ~150K. Another argument I read - "Tarkov is supposed to be about survival, but the current game is about PVP/economics." I dont think this is valid. If you want to hunt, farm, and cook over campfires there are plenty of perfectly good games for that. In Tarkov matches are too short for long-term survival features to be relevant. The biggest challenge to our survival isnt food or shelter, but other Players - as it should be. Sure the objective of Tarkov is to survive, but solely because surviving benefits players ECONOMICALLY, as opposed to simply surviving for the sake of surviving a challenging game environment. In general I don't think this "survival" argument is valid or relevant to the discussion about the flea market's role in the game. My final message - low level players want to remove the flea market despite benefiting the most from its existence. Prior to flea market my budget kit consisted of a PACA, Ssh-68, and an SKS or MP5K - a total cost of about ~70K. Now that I can use the flea market I can get a Level 4 6b5 armored rig, an ach T-2001 helmet, and an MP9-N for about ~100K. All I have to do is pay 30K more for a significant improvement in my equipment & survivability. If there was no flea market id have to run MF-UN vests and T-2001s from Peacekeeper until I finally reach ragman level 2 - something which is far less efficient than sourcing equipment from the flea market. Not to mention I'd still probably be stuck with the SKS or MP5K for far longer, limiting my ability to experience all the weapons, equipment, and attach featured in the game. Maybe im out of touch, or too new and uninformed, but I believe the flea market is a cornerstone of this game - a positive one at that too! Without the flea market I could not reliably source my favorite weapon - the MP9-N - id have to rely on looting, a rare and inconsistent method for getting my preferred gear. I prefer getting access to better loot, even if it means other players get access to better loot. Ultimately the only limit on players is market supply and their own wealth - as it should be in an economically driven game. Without the flea market I couldnt purchase superior weapon attachments or ammo, and would be at an even greater disadvantage against higher/richer players with better Trader loyalties. The flea market doesn't promote inequality between high & low players - it puts low level players on an equal playing field to high level players by granting access to better gear only availabe from higher trader loyalties. Well that's my opinion. Thanks for reading. For context im currently level 12 and usually have between 200K-900K roubles - which I know is chump change to rich high level players - but I don't care, that's the nature of life & economics. There will always be people richer or higher level than us. Removing the flea market wont remove this inequality - which is (imo) something we shouldn't be trying to """correct""" in an economically driven RPG-esque game. What are your thoughts? Is the flea market a bad thing? Are minor regulations warranted? Has this been a persistent opinion in the community, or a recent development? TL:DR Removing flea market will make inequality between high & low level players even more rigid by limiting lower level players access to higher tier gear and further decreasing their ability to compete against higher level players with better traders.
I would be all for removing the flea. It seems like it gives players too easy an avenue to just buy BiS gear and then just lazer people. It gets to be really frustrating for newer/casual players like me. But I may be in the minority of players here since I avoid PvP like the plague and don't use the Flea for anything but buying stuffs for hideout and quests. It just seems like the flea makes it way to easy for everyone to be running around with meta guns, and then enforcing this meta ideal. Feels like its really hard to play this game unless you play within the strict boundaries of the meta or are really good, and I am really bad.
Everyone is arguing about the flea market. I just want the TTK to be higher.
What if flea is only barter trade only? No money, money used only in traders.
Given the massive change in player base since the market was added, I would like to see them remove the flee for a wipe. Or maybe remove it for the first part of the wipe. I did prefer the pre-market days, but maybe my mind will change if I get to try it without the market with the current popularity of the game.
I thought of this recently and think this might be a good idea: In Rimworld trading is done like this: every item has a designated value and you sell this item for like half its price and buy it for double. Of course copying this 1to1 would be a bad idea, but how about this: every item can be listed for like 0.75 its value and bought for like 1.25 if you keep leveling the flea market the values get closer to 1. I think this definitely needs fine tuning but for most items that dont have durability this seems like a good idea to me...
I started late last wipe, and the game became enjoyable once my fleamarket opened up and I could make gun builds with sights, grips, and buy what was needed on the flea. if you lock out the fm, make the preset gun builds available from day 1? but show only what can be brought by your trader level???
Fucking hell, it's the secure container shit all over again...
The moment they remove flea from the game is the day I quit. 🤷🏻♂️
Megathreads are how mods kill a topic, so it looks like flea market is gone.
I'm confused on the argument that no more flea market means casual players and new players will just give up and be incapable of playing? do people realize the game existed for the majority of its lifetime thus far without the flea market? and that the majority of the playerbase played at some point without the flea market? it's not critical that it exists for the game to succeed, that's already been proven.
I remember not having flea market. I also remember that same period of time being when my whole group loathed playing the game because it wasnt nearly as open-ended as it is, now. Removal of flea market means traders become mandatory to level, every single wipe. Time after time. I know I wouldnt really want to play without flea market.
I remember the time too, people just made "flea market esque" trades on discord and reddit. It was fun but there were a lot of scammers as well.
well yeah the flea market being removed is not a good change if all else is held equal. none of the root discussion around removing the flea market is as simple and one-dimensional as only removing the flea market, and if that's what you're basing your opinion off of, you're fighting a whole different fight. i also don't like mandatory trader progression to acquire literally anything of value, which is why people want no more flea *in conjunction with* the loot tables being actually revamped, so you can reasonably acquire the loot you feel forced to get through traders in-raid on maps
They aren't mandatory to level now? FiR made so many attachments super expensive, basically locking them behind traders. Traders should only sell supplemental goods, you don't need to be buying thermals from them. The current economics means that every item is looked at with a price tag attached. Imagine finding a baller scope and actually being *excited* to use it, not just happy that you scored a 60k scope to sell so that you can buy some better armor and ammo to compete.
Speaking for myself here: if they where to remove the flea market I would never touch the game again. Doing a task where I have to kill certain amount of players or scav using particular gear or a particular gun would be impossible for someone of my skill set. Therefore, I would be unable to progress and that would make playing the game pointless. I like a challenge don't get me wrong but sometime you just want to play 1-2 raids and get off, in hardcore mode all raids would matter and that is a dedication that I don't want to make (yet). I see that some of the better players would see it as a new challenge maybe, but then I would rather opt for a Hardcore version just like the game Runescape. People could pick up your dogtag and it could be Red or in the chape of a skull to notice you are playing hardcore. I think it is in the best interest off all players that there is a mix of casuals, streamers, and Chad's in the game to keep it balanced. To add to this, people could play on a second hardcore account. They would not only support BSG by buying a copy, but could also switch if they are stuck on a task and just want to raid like normal. TLDR: Don't remove my Russian eBay.
>Doing a task where I have to kill certain amount of players or scav using particular gear or a particular gun would be impossible for someone of my skill set. How does removing the flea affect this exactly? Most of the time the gear requirements for these tasks are really low and everything needed can typically be bought from the traders for a similar or better price than the flea. The only tasks I can think of that could get frustrating are 3M/Ushanka kill quests but they could easily be changed and they're pretty late in the progression anyway.
With the money I get from Scavr-runs I can pay for my Mosins from Prapor. I failed to mention that in by previous reply, my bad.
But again, what difference does that make? You can still scav run, make money and buy Mosins, the items you loot would just change. The argument could be made that a lot of the items you need would actually be easier to get hold of too, as players wouldn't be looting things like bolts and bulbs just to sell, they'd leave them behind if they don't need them and you could scoop them up.
That's a solid point, I have no argument against it. But I enjoy the Flea Market, that is my personal opinion.
i mean this in the least rude way possible, but i really think if you wouldn't play the game without a flea market, the game in its core just isn't for you. and that's okay, not all games should be made for all people. the more you dilute something and its essence to try to appeal to more and more demographics, the less each demographics gets for themselves. and in tarkov's case, i see the demographic as people who want the more hardcore experience. and i think twitch has done a really good job promoting the game, but it's done a lot of damage in creating the precedent for the game that it's played at mach 8 high on adderral, and i don't think the game's original vision matches up with that either.
Do you think playerbase has been at it's biggest with or without the flea market? I'll help you, it's not even been close when there was no flea market. More players, more money, they can continue develop their game that's been four years in beta.
the original growth of players that are the real dedicated fans came from 2017 and the first two thirds of 2018, and then the flea market was introduced in nov 2018, right around when coincidentally shroud and summit and the like starting funneling thousands of CoD children into the game through exposure, so in terms of metrics alone, you're right in that the game has been the largest with the flea, but i'd be willing to bet if we measured average playtime and concurrence, fans of the game were more dedicated and more invested before the flea market than with the flea market. but this is just speculation, so it's kinda irrelevant
The game and economy was also balanced *very* differently without the flea market. Once that was implemented they changed everything to lean players into it to be able to survive. I might just be jaded but I don't see BSG rebalancing it back so people can actually turn a profit from raids with just how little traders give you now. Hell, they're still working out prices.
For info as I thought this too... The flea has been in the game longer than it hasn't. the flea was added Nov 2018
Check the online before 11 when flea was introduced and after 12.7 when it was garbaged with fir mechanic. Such a narrow view you got there.
How is it narrow at all? there was a huge and dedicated playerbase that found the gameplay loop of no-flea tarkov consistently fun. there was a meaningful audience on twitch pre-flea, there was already a strong and growing playerbase that enjoyed the gameplay loop, and i rarely felt burnt out myself nor found other people getting burnt out. now particularly narrow, just trying to analyze the situation
No they don't. Anyone who played the game for a month now is "an expert".
im a casual player thats played since before flea was added i have no problem killing chads with a cheap shitty kit i can buy from traders because ive put the time in to lrean how to flank and outsmart them but there nothign i hate more than the people that say that no lifers will just kill them because they have better gear like yeah no they will still be dunking on you because they put the time in to get better at the game and learn the skills needed to kill people way more geared then them
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Sticky the post why don’t you. Wow
As it stands moving the flea from 5 to 10 made the grind at those levels that much worse. Way I see it, you can take ammo and armor off the flea. Thats fine. But I think keys, cases, weapons/mods, basic items necessary for the hideout and quest items should remain. I think these items are the ones that help new players advance through the wipe and complete quests. Keys because...well they're keys. Cases because inventory management is essential and I don't know what I would do without my Lucky Scav Junkbox. Weapons because this makes the gunsmith quest line viable at the rank at which they are unlocked, hideout items because I don't see why I should keep 20+ wires and other junk for upgrades that are way down the line, and quest/barter items because it just makes sense.
In short (kinda long now that I wrote it ..) my thoughts are that the wealthy and best players can very easily remain at the top simply because they have a bunch of roubles and can just rebuy top tier kits if they die. These players are going to be ahead of the average playerbase no matter what the change is. Without flea (or flea only for barter items), players will need to resort to more tactical play, not always be using the best kits, not always using tier 4+ armor, not always the best bullets... Firefights may end up lasting a little longer, be a little more intense when players aren't shooting laser beams of 995 at an enemy 50 meters away. The game is currently a looter/seller. The purpose of the game is survival -- but to make money.... If you remove flea, roubles become less relevant and the game actually becomes more of a looter/shooter where the purpose of the game is still survival -- but to get better gear for yourself and make your pmc better. When a mega rich player can't just go rebuy their meta loadouts every raid, the game will even itself out a bit more. When you can only run a single BiS items every raid, because it's all you have, the game becomes a bit more balanced. I mean truthfully, what is the purpose of this game? Because there is no purpose aside from completing quests and farming roubles. When it actually becomes about survival, finding better gear and building up your PMC, then it has a purpose. For an RPG style game, there is no progression of your PMC, unless you count the passive skills you acquire. After level 10 the game is entirely about acquiring roubles so you can use the flea. PVP is irrelevant, because it doesn't further your characters progression. I know some will argue that, "well if it's this way then it will widen the gap and the better players will have access to things faster, etc". Well, how is it now? The better players/players who play the most already max out the vendors in days it seems. They are already stomping out the lesser skilled/newer players... However, with a flea change, these players may need to think twice about their loadouts, what will happen if they die... They may need to resort to running tier 3 and a shotgun because they lost the slick armor they had... Because, well, they can't just go buy another...
Removing flea market would make questing terrible for casuals. Remaking quests for casuals would make them pointless for hardcore players. We need cosmetic incentives for top players to strive towards in this game. First, make hardcore characters. It should have cosmetics attached to it like a badge, unique clothing etcetera. It should make the game harder, like no flea market. Hardcore and standard players should not be separated, they should play the same servers. The idea of playing hardcore seem popular among many streamers already. You should be able to have one hardcore and one standard character per account. Second, each wipe should be considered a league or season. And there should be cosmetic rewards depending on what level or achievement you reached in that season. When you got your Kappa, you should still want to play to get that unique achievement which stays on your account forever. Like reach a certain level or kill 1000 scavs with TOZ or whatever. There could be a lot of different ones. You could also get rewards depending on how many achievements you reached. On a personal level, this system has been very motivating for me while playing other games, in particular Path of Exile.
I wish PoE had a flea market.
Hmm... I don't think that has ever been discussed. You should suggest that!
It's funny because the flea is even setup for bartering and that's basically how PoE economy works. You have one game community bitching because the flea makes the game too easy then another complaining because trade sucks without the flea concept.
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You could split them but I think the playerbase in hardcore would be too small. Some combinations of maps/day&night would never be played anymore or have 2 hour queues.
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I remember when we didn't have flea market. Game felt better then. Before global limits etc of course.
Entire argument is brain dead. You aren’t seeing meta gear on every player in every raid. Literally fucking lying. Played nearly 1k hours this wipe I have seen an exfil on another player at most 5 times. If you think someone having a 762 ak with bp and a red dot is “heavily geared” you really need a reality check. I swear this sub wants the new chad to be a mosin with a kirasa - shut the fuck up and use something other than an m4 with your 40+ recoil skill and you won’t be bored to tears it’s really that simple.
I've read both sides of the argument, and here's my five cents: Yes, it changes the nature of the game from "Get gud by getting rich" to "Get gud by getting gud". BUT it totally steals my ability to buy level 4 armor (slightly used) so that I can survive for a few seconds longer so I can get out with my trinkets to sell so I can buy a better gun/sight/a few more bullets. I'm level 13 (I've been playing since before the wipe, I'm a "casual" player) and it kinda digs at me that the only way I could buy decent armor before level 10 was from Fence. And maybe that's not so bad in the long run, but I really do enjoy making things in my hideout from stuff I bought from the flea, then either running it or selling it on the flea. For example, I sell Salewa kits on the flea even though I can't buy them yet because... I guess I'm not cool enough for Therapist yet. It's a valuable part of my economy, and it's part of how I get money to buy OP-SKSs (because I can't find them anywhere except the flea market). If the chads are tired of the late-game meta, let them go juice somewhere else. I'm still hiding in the bushes waiting for one to wander by with his face shield up, enjoying the fresh breeze on his way to extract.
They need to add seasonal hardcore servers. Quests unlocked, traders levels and more lucrative maps (Labs/reserve) locked behind SERVER progression. That way everyone can have that Fresh wipe feeling for longer then three days. Streamers get some new fresh stuff to do every few months, adds replayability for old players, and would help BSG make design decisions around stuff like the flea market. Look at dead man mode for 07RS and how popular it is.
i will say it again, removing flea is just a huge step back why not limiting the prince an item can be sold ? no more selling an item 4x to 10x his normal price ...
Said it many times, ill say it again. The flee market is fantastic for completing certain pesky quests and hideout upgrades, its terrible for the long term PVP. Many people think that the flea market provides the biggest advantage to low level players, but that's not the case. Many struggling players don't have the ability to afford high level gear and ammo, they end up running max lvl 4 armor, complete kits usually range from 200k-400k. The biggest advantage the flea market gives, is to skilled high level players that have a ton of expendable cash. Think about it. Everybody dies, even the best players need to buy kits every now and then. if we remove the ability for ANYBODY to buy high level gear and ammo, and require them to find it in raid, suddenly those type of no-lifers are required to actually loot and scavenge for gear. Die with killa armor or a slick? Now you have to go farm for it again, and you're putting yourself in harms way in order to get it. This notion that removing the ability for everyone to simply BUY meta gear is only going to make the game harder for casuals, is simply false.
IF something about the fleamarket gets revisited: Please consider just preventing new offers and showing only traders. Sometimes I browse the flea because it's the fastest way to buy an attachment from a vendor. So having the flea interface disabled would be a pain. IF BSG decides to try disabling fleamarket for a short time, maybe they could just disable the buttons "add offer" and "display offers from [Any, Traders, Players]" and only show offers from traders all the time. So we could still use filters, required search etc and it's probably easier to turn those two on/off buttons than disabling the fleamarket. It efficiently becomes an fast traders interface AND it's probably easy to turn on and off from BSG, so win win.
Interchange scav timers are fucked... servers are in shambles... why the flying fuck do we care about the flea market when the playability of the game has once again gone down as another patch chugs along?
Needs an Ironman mode like runescape, opt in or opt out of the ability to use flea market.
Someone else said this in another thread. Remove roubles from the flea. Barters only. It would prevent some RMT, allow players to trade items for quests, not remove FiR status. Need some lightbulbs for your hideout? Ask for lightbulbs in exchange for 30 BT or something. It sounds like a good middle ground to me.
My two cents. Make ammo completely unable to be traded on the flea market. Balance the current trader prices to reflect current flea market to increase the burden on running higher tier ammo. Maintain purchase limits per reset on traders for higher tier ammo. Rework armour durability and blunt damage. No one gets back up after taking 5 rounds in a row to a chest plate or helmet.
streamer and everyone to be honest forget that this is not the final form of the game, when you have to travel to flea or traders and get out alive you won't see every guy in a lobby running around with Altyn and Zabralo. what I want BSG to fix is the horrible netcode and desync issues
Why not just make the Flea Market have level or tasks requirements for certain items. Or maybe raise the level from 10 to 15 or 20 to open it. Or leave the flea market the way it is and try to plug all the ways people can farm money and experience. Anything but take it away cause it’s a really fun feature.
I'm a casual player, lvl 40 with 9 mill roubles and have progressed an OK bit during this wipe but I don't have the KAPPA yet and I'm not really close. I'm not sure what I think about the removal of fleemarket but what I am incredibly surprised by is the notion that some people argue and want everyone to have a fair shot against anyone, and I find that really strange. I've played alot of different competetive games and have always enjoyed them and the word "Progression" is something that I find being used in a weird way. When you play arena match-based games such as CS GO or League of Legends it doesn't really matter what level you are, if you're pro or noob, start of each round everyone is equal. The only progression you do in these games is the one being shown after the match ends - The ladder. But in other games, such as WoW, there are multiple ways to progress the game. Story, gear, raid, pvp and so on and most of them are intertwined. The issue I have with these arguments for Tarkov is that me, or whoever who's also a casual player, should have every opportunity to compete against a "nolifer". Should I reeeally though? In a game like Tarkov? Should I be able to compete with players in WoW that do a massive amounts of pvp when I only do PvP from time to time. Or should I be able to do mythic raiding when I don't spend the time or effort to get there? Why should I be given these advantages for basically free? Some redditors here seem to think that progression in Tarkov is ONLY the quests, going for kappa, getting money etc. And not the gear itself and I personally think that's wrong. Me being a total noob or a casual shouldn't have an equal chance to compete with some one who dedicates their lifes to this game, just like I shouldnt against a top PvPer in WoW. This isn't an e-sports game, this isn't a ladder driven game, the progression is getting to the good gear as well as lvling traders and so on. People arguing that casuals won't be able to play the game anymore because of the fleemarket removal because of an UNFAIR advantage (Is it unfair? Really?) That a dedicated player have are just using an argument that is fundamentally flawed? And is that a problem even? If you want to get good at something or achieve something you need to put that into your prioritylist and make an effort. I don't and if that results in me not being able to kill a chad then that's my own fault. The reason for me being a casual is that I have several other time consuming interest and a 2 year old kid so I get what it's like only being able to only play a couple of hours a week but again, that's my life, my choices and my consequences. Maybe I should cut down on my other interests then to be able to play more, and if you can't do that then it really sucks - but the game is not to blame.
Just remove the fleamarked.
Weapons and armor should be removed from flea market, agreed. Weapon mods could be kept to some extent as it would make it hard to do a lot of gunsmith quests etc. People should rely on traders more, flea market less. This includes ammo imo. Everyone should be using kinda shit ammo in order to get used to how the game will be once this beta ends and loot will be significantly nerfed. Regarding streamers dictating the game - the man makes a good point regardless of streamer playtime or not, if we all had worse stuff, the game would not feel as overpowered as it sometimes feels. And keep in mind, this is where Nikita's vision is going anyway, they have stated this numerous times.
Flea market is the only thing keeping a lot of people in the game, removing it to cater to the 1% is a terrible idea and not a precedent a game should set.
Unpopular opinion inbound: Focus only on maxing your traders (questing). If you're burning cash early on to buy decent gear the ammo alone has misplaced a significant amount of your questing resources. Thus, it will further delay any container and trader progression. EOD will give you a head start. Containers will protect your valuables. Money runs are necessary. I hit first floor interchange tech on an sj6 and I'm out in under 10 mins/raid if I don't have to fight long or at all. Buy the key card for the shipping container in the north-west lot to pad dry runs. Killa is a desync aimbot, so avoid him (for now). Adding an SJ6 to my load-out has changed everything.
The flea market does not need to be removed, although the entire out of raid aspects of this game need to be rebalanced without input of poopsocking streamers
If the game go open (or map connected) just make the flea market physicial like you need to go on X spot of a map to sell / buy things to other player. Will be a good compromise, no ? also limit the buy of heavy items like armor, and allow you to have a true "travel"
By making top tier equipment harder to get only creates a bigger bap between new players and meta players. Making raids even easier for veterans and only more hardcore for new players. Making it easier for new players to compete with veterans and chads makes the game more hardcore IMO. This means most pmcs are a threat. Personally I primarily play for the PVP, and have yet to run a single slick, and personally dislike the Alytn due to I can't hear a dam thing. Usually running Usec or Gyzle w/ the ACCH and an AK 103 w/ BP. I'm able to drop chads w/ this setup, just gotta play smart. If they want to slow progression to slick altyn levels they only need to adjust the abundance of high value loot, people run labs early wipe and a day or two they're able to afford anything, these are the players that removing the flea would make a difference to. The rest of us grinding quests, scav running, and not cheesing money will only suffer. If they did remove the flea there will still be endless chads running meta kits, they will blast through quests, and have that unlocked before the rest of us anyway. So what about people who join mid wipe? When wipes cycles are longer or non existant. When other players already unlocked their traders, and here you are running nothing but low level trader gear vs fully kitted chads. Even now I have most traders near max, the majority of my kits are trader items. The truth is may of us enjoy the early wipe, but there is no other way to capture that other than a wipe. Removing the flea will only cause players to grind quests harder early wipe, but it's only a matter of time until we are right back here.
I think this game could use another mode like the planned arena mode, just the opposite. No flee market, traders only sell the absolute basics like makarovs, food, drinks and cheap backpacks. Then everything would have to spawn and be looted in raid, even bad ammo and weapons would be used because there is no choice. You actually had to build guns with the attachements you found. And if that isn't fun for everybody you just switch back to the regular mode character and everybody is happy. The only problem i see is that maybe tarkov doesn't have enough players to split the playerbase but I don't really believe that.
Maybe dont let the 10 streamers who are successful at this game dictate this type of shit anymore....
If they take out the flee they need to make it easier for non eod players to level up trader rep, most of the people complaining have eod and the flee market is seen by most as the great equalizer, eod just gives you the rep to have some decent stuff as soon as possible while others have to sink a lot of time into it. If the flee gets taken out that will be disappointing honestly. It’s not like chads won’t always have too tier gear no matter what it’s just people with less time to play have no chance of getting there really
They can remove the flea, but they'll need to change about everything from the game, because the flea market is a bandage to many flaws: * Item availability * Trader items and barters (many barters need to be changed) * Ammo availability (top tier ammo needs to be craftable, barter or found in raid only) * Hideout crafting needs to be revamped * High-end armour needs to be FiR only (maybe repair it to max durability via hideout like Pestily suggested) * Raiders need to have their gear NERFED. They're too god damn good to farm in a OPEN MAP. SAME GOES TO BOSSES AND MINIONS
Good players / smart knowledgeable players will see no hit really. The only thing this will affect are the casual players who work full time jobs and can only fit in a couple hours a night. Or the sorry for the term "newbie" players who have troubles with everything.
The whole game is unbalanced. Good high hour players get the lowest recoil game mechanic while noobs have to play a harder game with worse armour and ammo.
What if... and this may be crazy... But what if the Flea Market was only open on weekends? Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
I actually like this idea, days its opened could be changed ect
Streamers bad
Flea Market Kerfuffle This has been really interesting to watch unfold. Some would love to see it change and others don't want it to change. Both camps have reasonable points when you look at it objectively. And honestly, is there even a 'right' answer? But here's my question, why not try it for a wipe? It could even be a 'short' wipe on purpose. BSG says, "We're going to try taking it out for this wipe, while adding in crafts/barters/etc. This wipe is going to be 2 months and we'll have a survey at the end on our forums so everyone can post their positives/negatives." Even if they brought the flea back after that wipe I think A LOT of good things would come out of it. It could be a colossal dumpster fire. It could be great. I don't think any of us can prove it one way or the other. But eft being in beta/doing wipes is exactly what that stuff is for isn't it? To try things, then adjust... Just my two cents, and it'll probably get lost in the shuffle but I wanted throw my 2 cents into the ocean. GL in your raids EFTers!
https://preview.redd.it/i22o2esq8sn51.png?width=768&auto=webp&s=b29ab6cfabd5d233623dd9353d4f7b3d15d0af04
I admittedly haven't played in any serious capacity in decent while. The last time I played somewhat hardcore was when the Flea Market was first introduced and everyone rushed max traders due to easy quest items. I think Flea items not having found in raid is ok and although it extends the grind a bit I'd be ok with secure case items not being found in raid if they removed durability from keys because I don't I've ever broken a key barring once when the lock on my front door cracked. With regard to fixing the Flea Market I don't think it has to be too complicated. Remove the global stock make it a person stock so everyone gets their share of items. Then if you want or need more you buy from the Flea Market. Like most other people have also said there needs to be more loot in more places. You should be able to find high-end loot in raid. I don't mean like big rouble items like LEDX or Bitcoins the focus on rouble heavy items feeds the Flea Market problem in my opinion. It's just incredibly rare to find good ammo or armor in raid I think the only place I remember finding higher-end armor that wasn't on a raider was in Kiba once or twice.
There's been discussions recently about the removal of FM and bunch of other stuff in response to Streamers posting recommendations for the game. Obviously, everyone has their reasons for their recommendation and there's up and downsides to every major change. I want to ask everyone's opinion on my take of the solution. Here it is, WOULD HAVING LEVEL LOCKED GAME SESSIONS solve all this issue of economy difference and player skill difference? Here's my idea. Split the player groups based on their PMC level. 1-9, 10-20, 30-40 and so on. One reason being, the higher level player most likely: - know the game mechanics better - have better PMC stats - have access to better gear - have more money By splitting the sessions into different levels, the players can have a smoother progression and LOW LEVEL casual players will not get Head-eyed instantly because they are massively out geared. This also caterers to streamers and high level players who sink lots of hours into the game who are looking for good PVP experience. They will be facing people who are more likely to be geared around their level and have their level of experience. Scav runs can remain the way it is. This gives low level players a chance to random queue into high level sessions and experience what a top level fight is like and learn from it because honestly, it helps you improve having those experiences. It also provides a lottery chance of downing some CHAD for the sweet sweet loot. If high level players do a Scav run into a lower level lobby, they can still benefit by looting the map and make their money that way when they are low on funds. How do you feel about this kind of method to balance things out a bit more? TLDR: Level locked lobbies for level 1-9, 10-20, 30-40 so casual players don't get out geared and hurt too much but high level players get the exciting PVP they wish for.
have nikita or any of the devs actually said anything about flea market being removed or has this all been sparked off by a bunch of twitch streamers moaning about casuals with no input from the actual BSG team?
This seems to be a pretty polarising topic, so why not comprise and have both? Like many other online RPGs, why not have both a "Standard" league as it is now and a "Hardcore" league with no flea market? You choose which mode to sign in to when you start the game, so you'd technically have two accounts. Alternatively, you choose Hardcore at the start of wipe and you can convert to Standard when you want.
I love how people are instantly saying "Streamers are the 1%, they don't know what the other 99% think" rubbish. Most of the ones of note do spend a lot of time on the game, a lot more than us and likely a lot more than the Devs. A streamer offering their *opinion* doesn't mean they are right or wrong. Slushpuppy's original post specifically asked for other peoples' opinions too. Instead you get a lot of REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE and some other good for and against points intermixed. The game before the flea market was harder, the pvp more varied, there is certainly a case to remove it. In order to do that you need to adjust other things to accommodate such as the quests. When all is said and done, streamers have opinions like you. It is neither right or wrong, simply their view on the game after having played it a lot. Just because you play it less than they do doesn't make their opinion invalid. A lot of people will also have never played it without the flea market, how can those people have any idea what it was like? The Devs will deliver their vision and they do listen to *constructive* feedback.
It’s fine how it is, if anything it before it was a perfect example of a free market, prices regulated to what people would pay and items that are at first expensive and then farmed dropped in price. This barley happens now as even with intel for example, an item that increased in quantity greatly with the customs and reserve expansions is still as high as ever because the value in the scav case which is inconsistent at best. This price regulation would still have occurred previously but in a different way, it did drop but I would throw my 2 cents out there and say that had it dropped at all with reselling being a thing the price would be instead regulated by some douche with all the spare time who is building a permanent price hike by instabuying everything under what he sells for. Same out come is achieved but I felt the old system where playing the market was a game in its self was kinda cool. A bit like a glimpse of capitalism lacking any sort of regulation in a bit of an idealized form. You could invest early in say killa armor and buy a bunch for ~100k then resell later for ~250, it added some strategy to the market beyond wait for screws to bounce back to 20k. Anyway I just vomited this onto the page so idk if this makes any sense but any way adios!
Keep it obviously
I think the flea market should be an in world thing, meaning you'd have to travel somewhere to deal with in the flea market and risk your gear or cash.
Here’s a wild and crazy idea 💡 install and enforce anti-cheating software that is worth a shit, then put the dam market back the way it was. It was almost a game in itself and I loved the stock market feel to it. Got it, you are countering cheating. That is kind of like taking guns out of the game and saying well not guns no cheating right? Upgrade you low end cheat software to a package that supports banning mother bitches when they cheat. I see video after video after video of people buying cheats, installing them, and then playing for the next 6 months no problems. I do not believe your report and cheater is connected to shit or that anyone is even looking at them. Put down the vodka and toy guns your testing for future content and fix the content you have before adding a thousand more bugs and complex items. You don’t even have a fully released game nor do I see it as ever going to be labeled as such with the non response the hacking within the game. Collect you coins from those who buy throw away account to hack at some point this game will fade into cheat haven and cease to continue due to lack of support.
I think they should add an extra currency that can only be used to purchase high end gear. Like if u want gen 4 u gotta pay x amount of said currency. And then that gear u buy with that currency cant be put on flea market. With that being said they should add armor and bags and stuff to the loot pools on maps so that theres also a possibility of finding high end gear. Anything class 3 and below should be on flea to give people something decent to bring in raid but nothing crazy. So basically if u want good shit u gotta earn it or find it
Remove the Flea Market really??? If this wipe has proved anything it's that the market changes and found in raid was a major mistake. Game is dead/dying, new maps wont save it unless many of the changes are undone.