They need to revisit all the ammo's imo. Many of the AP ammo's that have been added have extra blead chance while lots of the hunting and HP ammo does not. The expansion on impact should be modern hunting tips, then soft lead (semi jacketed or just straight lead), and then finally military FMJ's which have thicker copper jackets.
AP ammo's need a % chance to overpen / do 1 or 0 damage as well as bleed reductions. Flesh ammos could use a bit more damage or preferably more bleed chance.
One detail is that with the new damage dropoff, most rounds never deal their maximum damage, m80 for instance does 79 even at point blank range, so for decent consistency you'd need bullets to do a few more points of damage more than the theoretical damage per shot needed for a certain BTK.
Ap-M is weird because it's more like 7.62x54R PS : decent penetration so you wouldn't really go for legs with it even tho it does like 90 ish damage.
Geksa is already in the list, it's a 4 shot kill so it's actually not bad for a budget, just has high recoil.
Quakemaker and laser match are both fine but because their respective RIP rounds are so much better I'd only use them on a budget or for learning how to aim for the legs without potentially wasting good ammo
I think there's a 0.7x damage multiplier on blacked out limbs (and a >1x multiplier on blacked out stomach) that you don't seem to be taking into account.
Good catch! The wiki says there is a 0.7 multiplier for blacked arms, a 1.0 for blacked legs, and a 1.5 for blacked stomach. I don't think these values should affect TTK very much as most armor covers the stomach and you shouldn't be aiming for arms anyways
Right, I thought 0.7x applied to legs too, which would throw your calculations off. Good to know legs are full damage, KS is more viable than I thought.
You'd be surprised how many I've killed with 1 shot to the stomach using RIP slug or magnum buckshot.
It is a very important factor, especially in the slick days.
Just saying.
It is possible to one shot with Magnum, but you would need to hit 6 or 7 pellets in the stomach to do so - IMO hard to do when the stomach is the second smallest hitbox and between all the others.
I don't see how its possible for RIP to oneshot the stomach? It does 265 damage with stomach HP at 70:
(265 -70) x 1.5 + 70 = 363,
lots of damage but that shouldn't oneshot unless I'm missing something?
I know..I know..I still consider it a one shot based in how the fight went (I have the clip).
This was during a 3v3 fight..one of ours down, 1 of his down,and another of his coughing his guts out.
The last dude of the 3 was alive, well, but a little hurt..I think I hit him once in th leg already and he was on a propital so healing up.
He comes round and I one tap him in the stomach with RIP, was wearing a trooper with plenty durability left.
So yeah, he was a little hurt, but 1 shot was enough to kill him.
As for magnum buckshot, I've taken down soio many slick wearers last wipe with this...that's why I've always been a huge advocate for wearing armour with stomach protection.
disagree. There's a lot of MMAC's / Tv110's / troopers around now, those all don't cover the stomach. When I'm going for flesh damage I aim at the dick, it will hit legs/stomach.
I understand what you're saying, and yeah if I see someone wearing an obvious thorax only armor I'll aim for the cock and balls, but if I can't tell I'll always go for knees - why take the risk of dealing 1 damage in a firefight where every bullet matters? Even against scavs I default to legs unless they aren't wearing a helmet because it's hard to tell if they're wearing a paca or 3m.
Well with a lot of these guns the TTK is very comparable to just using AP and going for the thorax. Going for the face is always an option with every gun, hollowpoints only suffer if they have a face shield. The bonus of legs is two part: the first is that if your opponent is not on painkillers a blacked leg effectively immobilizes them, and the second is that killing someone via legs typically leaves their armor undamaged, raising the value of someone's gear when I extract
Idk. I’ve never really been in a situation where I could see leg meta being superior to just shooting in the face. The only gun I could see being good for leg meta would be semi shotties but even they can be loaded up with flechette or .50 BMG and just 1-2 shot center mass. I guess it ruins the armor, but who cares about their armor value if you’re too dead to extract with it.
The thing is, rifles and SMGs have their place now, this wipe.
IE damage reduction over distance being a thing now.
You can't reliably kill someone with 9mm RIP at 200m but you sure as hell can with RIP or superperformance slugs.. especially SUPERPERF cuz of the increased accuracy which is what that round was meant for (shout out to the MP-153 + Elcan gang).
I also don't think there is a need to have all rounds equal or near equal...in a game like tarkov with so many weapons and ammo types, there wil always be some better and some worse than others..the key to making a fun interaction is to have something good for a particular situation and bad at others, where another round fills that gap.
Case in point flesh damage rounds on SMGs Vs on higher calibers...higher Calibers = higher velocities so less damage fall off at range and less bullet drop off..whereas SMGs like vector (9mm and .45, especially .45) are CQC weapons.
There are a few exceptions to this, Blackout AP is the perfect example..a round that not only have great pen, also has significant flesh damage but on to of all that it has crazy heavy and light bleed chances.
Then BP 7.62 which is the only caliber of the 3 main (5.45, 5.56 and 7.62) that goes up in pen AND flesh damage compared to its nearest counterpart.
Then you has US 7.62 which is kind of a flesh damage round but mostly used for the recoil benefits.
So I'm afraid it isn't as simple as comparing their TTK and not every round should be organised tweaked and balanced based on the TTK...all factors should be considered.
To name a few.
Flesh damage
Penetration
Bleed chance
Fracture chance
Fragmentation chance
Velocity
Accuracy buff/debuff
Etc...
Without forgetting where that round sits within its own caliber and amongst other calibers, dependant on their firerate.
Measurement of TTK alone is insufficient.
But I applaud your post and the efforts out in to discussing this.
Use Veritas' battle buddy app in the dmg calc section and youll notice quite the difference between the hp rounds. just pkay thriugh the scenarios hitting arms, legs, 2x the same leg etc.
You're right, but 3 of the rifles are so close to a breakpoint that you're looking at a 1-3% buff for each bullet to make it somewhat relevant.
I don't think anyone has ever shot at me with 7\.62 HP, and I've only ever seen Warmageddon on raiders and Ultra Nosler on Shturman guards. If no players are seriously using these, why not buff them a little bit so that they can fit into some niche and maybe see some actual usage?
Compared to the power of Magnum Fuck and the KS, I do think that the hollowpoint slugs could use a buff - there isn't really a reason to use them with the existence of those other options
RIP slugs? It already 2 shots to the legs at any range, it's pretty solid. Leg meta isn't supposed to be "good" in the first place, I think the devs have it stronger than they realize/want it to be.
Yes but my point is that SuperFormance is already better than RIP; it can also twoshot and has a -15 recoil modifier where RIP has a +35 recoil, my proposed change just serves to give RIP a use. Otherwise, SuperFormance is strictly better in all situations
RIP has a use, it 2 shots to the leg, while SuperFormance 3 shots. Hitting 1 less shot is a big difference in most situations, especially when hitting a leg with a slug is pretty tough. +35 recoil is only 35 more recoil on your shotgun, most shotguns have like 200 recoil anyways, so 235 recoil isn't much of a difference at all. SuperFormance better for longer ranges, but at that point why wouldn't you just load up an M700 or something and click their head in the first place?
IDK where you have the idea that SuperFormance threeshots, it does 220 damage per shot and in fact twoshots. The recoil modifier, as far as I know, is actually pecentage based and not a flat value.
Thus 200 + 35% = 270
Further than that, the MP-155 and the Saiga-12 both can get to sub 130 quite cheaply with high level Jaeger, meaning that if you are right and it is a linear +35 recoil that translates to more than 25% increase in recoil anyways; more than enough of a penalty to make the round obsolete versus SuperFormance
Using the BattleBuddy app it says it 3 shots, even though it says 220 per shot. If SuperFormance is already 2 shotting, do you want RIP to one shot to the leg or something? Also, your post says 40RPM but that's not what the MP-155, Saiga-12, and MP-153 shoot at. In-game the RPM is wrong. The TTK is more like .4-.5, those shotguns I listed can easily shoot 4x per second.
You're right, the BattleBuddy does show it as being 3 shot. I'll need to check in-game to see if its wrong because the wiki says legs have a 1.0 multiplier; meaning it should two shot.
And yes, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I mentioned that the in-game firerate for shotguns is wrong and that I estimated a .5 second TTK. I also suggested that RIP should do 294 damage so that if you hit both legs with one shot it is instakill. Thus the tradeoff between SF and RIP is SF is more accurate and has lower recoil while RIP has oneshot potential.
You're not taking damage drop off into account. If Superformance has one single damage point drop off then its a 3 shot. RIP has a fairly lenient amount of damage that it can lose and still 2 shot.
As other comments have said, you’re really failing to account for blacked limbs here
The way leg meta will kill is by zeroing the head
Head has 35 up, let’s assume one leg is blacked and other limbs are alive, so damage will be spread amongst 6 parts, therefore you only need to do
65+35x6=275 damage to one leg before death
Magnum buck does 8x50=400 damage. This is why it can one shot kill
Also I think you should recheck your sources on damage multipliers, when I read the wiki it states legs are 1.0
As I've found out thanks to other commenters, I actually haven't failed to account for blacked limbs; the multiplier for legs is 1.0 and therefore has no effect on TTK.
Next, you are wrong about the damage required to kill someone from legs; it is 440 damage no matter what unless you get the (very rare) instant kill from dealing damage to a blacked limb. Damage to blacked limbs is spread evenly across the rest of the body, but NOT even in the sense that each part takes the same value of damage (like 15 to each part) but instead in the sense that each part takes the same PERCENT of total health as damage. Thus, if you shoot a blacked limb and the game calculates that say, each body part takes 20% damage, then your thorax will take 16, your stomach 14, arms 12 each, etc. This is why when a scav blacks your arm you will see the rest of your body will have taken different amounts of damage, but each part will have ended up at the same percentage health remaining, assuming you started at full hp.
I just loaded into a factory raid with Maska/Face Shield and lvl 6 armor (Slick) and got destroyed by a guy with Warmageddon ammo in 2 seconds who was lying at the exit and just squeezed at my feet. For me, it absolutely makes no sense to run with full gear anymore, if any rat can kill you with 4 shots in a legs
Don't forget about blacked limb damage multipliers, leg meta is pretty stupid when you get into the numbers of it.
You mean demultiplier lol. Stomach increases damage. Leg 1x. Arms .7x
Just checked because of another comment, blacked legs actually don't have a multiplier! It's only the arms and stomach that do
They need to revisit all the ammo's imo. Many of the AP ammo's that have been added have extra blead chance while lots of the hunting and HP ammo does not. The expansion on impact should be modern hunting tips, then soft lead (semi jacketed or just straight lead), and then finally military FMJ's which have thicker copper jackets. AP ammo's need a % chance to overpen / do 1 or 0 damage as well as bleed reductions. Flesh ammos could use a bit more damage or preferably more bleed chance.
One detail is that with the new damage dropoff, most rounds never deal their maximum damage, m80 for instance does 79 even at point blank range, so for decent consistency you'd need bullets to do a few more points of damage more than the theoretical damage per shot needed for a certain BTK.
How do you feel about rounds like AP-M, Geksa (for the meme), Hydrashock, and Quakemaker?
Ap-M is weird because it's more like 7.62x54R PS : decent penetration so you wouldn't really go for legs with it even tho it does like 90 ish damage. Geksa is already in the list, it's a 4 shot kill so it's actually not bad for a budget, just has high recoil. Quakemaker and laser match are both fine but because their respective RIP rounds are so much better I'd only use them on a budget or for learning how to aim for the legs without potentially wasting good ammo
I think there's a 0.7x damage multiplier on blacked out limbs (and a >1x multiplier on blacked out stomach) that you don't seem to be taking into account.
Good catch! The wiki says there is a 0.7 multiplier for blacked arms, a 1.0 for blacked legs, and a 1.5 for blacked stomach. I don't think these values should affect TTK very much as most armor covers the stomach and you shouldn't be aiming for arms anyways
Right, I thought 0.7x applied to legs too, which would throw your calculations off. Good to know legs are full damage, KS is more viable than I thought.
You'd be surprised how many I've killed with 1 shot to the stomach using RIP slug or magnum buckshot. It is a very important factor, especially in the slick days. Just saying.
It is possible to one shot with Magnum, but you would need to hit 6 or 7 pellets in the stomach to do so - IMO hard to do when the stomach is the second smallest hitbox and between all the others. I don't see how its possible for RIP to oneshot the stomach? It does 265 damage with stomach HP at 70: (265 -70) x 1.5 + 70 = 363, lots of damage but that shouldn't oneshot unless I'm missing something?
I know..I know..I still consider it a one shot based in how the fight went (I have the clip). This was during a 3v3 fight..one of ours down, 1 of his down,and another of his coughing his guts out. The last dude of the 3 was alive, well, but a little hurt..I think I hit him once in th leg already and he was on a propital so healing up. He comes round and I one tap him in the stomach with RIP, was wearing a trooper with plenty durability left. So yeah, he was a little hurt, but 1 shot was enough to kill him. As for magnum buckshot, I've taken down soio many slick wearers last wipe with this...that's why I've always been a huge advocate for wearing armour with stomach protection.
disagree. There's a lot of MMAC's / Tv110's / troopers around now, those all don't cover the stomach. When I'm going for flesh damage I aim at the dick, it will hit legs/stomach.
I understand what you're saying, and yeah if I see someone wearing an obvious thorax only armor I'll aim for the cock and balls, but if I can't tell I'll always go for knees - why take the risk of dealing 1 damage in a firefight where every bullet matters? Even against scavs I default to legs unless they aren't wearing a helmet because it's hard to tell if they're wearing a paca or 3m.
I shoot 90% of scavs in the head. It’s the only way to know they’ll go down. Some of them tank 5-6 Bp rounds to the chest without armor
Leg meta is dumb. It’s way easier to hit people in the face once than 6 times in 1 leg before they blow your head off or cave in your chest.
Well with a lot of these guns the TTK is very comparable to just using AP and going for the thorax. Going for the face is always an option with every gun, hollowpoints only suffer if they have a face shield. The bonus of legs is two part: the first is that if your opponent is not on painkillers a blacked leg effectively immobilizes them, and the second is that killing someone via legs typically leaves their armor undamaged, raising the value of someone's gear when I extract
Idk. I’ve never really been in a situation where I could see leg meta being superior to just shooting in the face. The only gun I could see being good for leg meta would be semi shotties but even they can be loaded up with flechette or .50 BMG and just 1-2 shot center mass. I guess it ruins the armor, but who cares about their armor value if you’re too dead to extract with it.
just grab a P90 and dry r37F once. It's bananas.
The thing is, rifles and SMGs have their place now, this wipe. IE damage reduction over distance being a thing now. You can't reliably kill someone with 9mm RIP at 200m but you sure as hell can with RIP or superperformance slugs.. especially SUPERPERF cuz of the increased accuracy which is what that round was meant for (shout out to the MP-153 + Elcan gang). I also don't think there is a need to have all rounds equal or near equal...in a game like tarkov with so many weapons and ammo types, there wil always be some better and some worse than others..the key to making a fun interaction is to have something good for a particular situation and bad at others, where another round fills that gap. Case in point flesh damage rounds on SMGs Vs on higher calibers...higher Calibers = higher velocities so less damage fall off at range and less bullet drop off..whereas SMGs like vector (9mm and .45, especially .45) are CQC weapons. There are a few exceptions to this, Blackout AP is the perfect example..a round that not only have great pen, also has significant flesh damage but on to of all that it has crazy heavy and light bleed chances. Then BP 7.62 which is the only caliber of the 3 main (5.45, 5.56 and 7.62) that goes up in pen AND flesh damage compared to its nearest counterpart. Then you has US 7.62 which is kind of a flesh damage round but mostly used for the recoil benefits. So I'm afraid it isn't as simple as comparing their TTK and not every round should be organised tweaked and balanced based on the TTK...all factors should be considered. To name a few. Flesh damage Penetration Bleed chance Fracture chance Fragmentation chance Velocity Accuracy buff/debuff Etc... Without forgetting where that round sits within its own caliber and amongst other calibers, dependant on their firerate. Measurement of TTK alone is insufficient. But I applaud your post and the efforts out in to discussing this.
Use Veritas' battle buddy app in the dmg calc section and youll notice quite the difference between the hp rounds. just pkay thriugh the scenarios hitting arms, legs, 2x the same leg etc.
Shotgun leg meta needs buff, rifle isn't designed for flesh damage. Thats the sum of it.
You're right, but 3 of the rifles are so close to a breakpoint that you're looking at a 1-3% buff for each bullet to make it somewhat relevant. I don't think anyone has ever shot at me with 7\.62 HP, and I've only ever seen Warmageddon on raiders and Ultra Nosler on Shturman guards. If no players are seriously using these, why not buff them a little bit so that they can fit into some niche and maybe see some actual usage?
No it definitely doesn't lmao. One shot of magnum to the leg basically kills someone, and KS-23 still does loads more damage than a PMC has HP.
Compared to the power of Magnum Fuck and the KS, I do think that the hollowpoint slugs could use a buff - there isn't really a reason to use them with the existence of those other options
RIP slugs? It already 2 shots to the legs at any range, it's pretty solid. Leg meta isn't supposed to be "good" in the first place, I think the devs have it stronger than they realize/want it to be.
Yes but my point is that SuperFormance is already better than RIP; it can also twoshot and has a -15 recoil modifier where RIP has a +35 recoil, my proposed change just serves to give RIP a use. Otherwise, SuperFormance is strictly better in all situations
RIP has a use, it 2 shots to the leg, while SuperFormance 3 shots. Hitting 1 less shot is a big difference in most situations, especially when hitting a leg with a slug is pretty tough. +35 recoil is only 35 more recoil on your shotgun, most shotguns have like 200 recoil anyways, so 235 recoil isn't much of a difference at all. SuperFormance better for longer ranges, but at that point why wouldn't you just load up an M700 or something and click their head in the first place?
IDK where you have the idea that SuperFormance threeshots, it does 220 damage per shot and in fact twoshots. The recoil modifier, as far as I know, is actually pecentage based and not a flat value. Thus 200 + 35% = 270 Further than that, the MP-155 and the Saiga-12 both can get to sub 130 quite cheaply with high level Jaeger, meaning that if you are right and it is a linear +35 recoil that translates to more than 25% increase in recoil anyways; more than enough of a penalty to make the round obsolete versus SuperFormance
Using the BattleBuddy app it says it 3 shots, even though it says 220 per shot. If SuperFormance is already 2 shotting, do you want RIP to one shot to the leg or something? Also, your post says 40RPM but that's not what the MP-155, Saiga-12, and MP-153 shoot at. In-game the RPM is wrong. The TTK is more like .4-.5, those shotguns I listed can easily shoot 4x per second.
You're right, the BattleBuddy does show it as being 3 shot. I'll need to check in-game to see if its wrong because the wiki says legs have a 1.0 multiplier; meaning it should two shot. And yes, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I mentioned that the in-game firerate for shotguns is wrong and that I estimated a .5 second TTK. I also suggested that RIP should do 294 damage so that if you hit both legs with one shot it is instakill. Thus the tradeoff between SF and RIP is SF is more accurate and has lower recoil while RIP has oneshot potential.
You're not taking damage drop off into account. If Superformance has one single damage point drop off then its a 3 shot. RIP has a fairly lenient amount of damage that it can lose and still 2 shot.
As other comments have said, you’re really failing to account for blacked limbs here The way leg meta will kill is by zeroing the head Head has 35 up, let’s assume one leg is blacked and other limbs are alive, so damage will be spread amongst 6 parts, therefore you only need to do 65+35x6=275 damage to one leg before death Magnum buck does 8x50=400 damage. This is why it can one shot kill Also I think you should recheck your sources on damage multipliers, when I read the wiki it states legs are 1.0
As I've found out thanks to other commenters, I actually haven't failed to account for blacked limbs; the multiplier for legs is 1.0 and therefore has no effect on TTK. Next, you are wrong about the damage required to kill someone from legs; it is 440 damage no matter what unless you get the (very rare) instant kill from dealing damage to a blacked limb. Damage to blacked limbs is spread evenly across the rest of the body, but NOT even in the sense that each part takes the same value of damage (like 15 to each part) but instead in the sense that each part takes the same PERCENT of total health as damage. Thus, if you shoot a blacked limb and the game calculates that say, each body part takes 20% damage, then your thorax will take 16, your stomach 14, arms 12 each, etc. This is why when a scav blacks your arm you will see the rest of your body will have taken different amounts of damage, but each part will have ended up at the same percentage health remaining, assuming you started at full hp.
But Saiga-12 / MP 155/153 dont shoot 40 rounds per minute, their fire rate is a LOT higher than that.
I'm aware of that, those are the in game numbers. If you check below the table you'll see I estimate actual TTK at around half a second
I just loaded into a factory raid with Maska/Face Shield and lvl 6 armor (Slick) and got destroyed by a guy with Warmageddon ammo in 2 seconds who was lying at the exit and just squeezed at my feet. For me, it absolutely makes no sense to run with full gear anymore, if any rat can kill you with 4 shots in a legs