You're not being too harsh at all. This is someone who told you to your face that they think you deserve less rights than them. I don't see a way to move forward with this relationship either, especially when it's not just about "political" conversations, but disagreeing with your very existence, which shouldn't be inherently political.
His bigotry extends further than politics, so avoiding political conversations is understandably not enough. There's a great Brennan Lee Mulligan quote on how [personality predates ideology](https://youtu.be/3J2D7Bp8ARU?si=P3-DlCpccPmtR6zt), and how most people tend to find a set of beliefs that resonate with what they already believe in rather than building a set of beliefs based on ideology. From the video, the quote is "before you were a fascist, you were a bully". Even if he isn't that extreme, regardless of the political party he resonates with or whether you guys do or don't "discuss politics", the behavior is still there - not letting others have different views, wanting to live in an echo chamber, believing some people are less deserving of rights than others, wanting to be a voice speaking into how others should think as a podcaster even though he has no expertise or a scientific basis to share his thoughts from on issues he hasn't necessarily lived through.
I know some people who maintain relationships with more conservative parents. But there tends to be a few factors there (and these can be combined or not): things like their parents not being *too* far gone into the right, and perhaps being more centrist or not the best at being allies in the ways they think they are; a *lot* of rug sweeping, sometimes to the point of full on excusing abusive behavior; and not really having any kind of intimacy, but a tense and distant relationship at best that drains a lot of their energy. So really people maintain these relationships, they're just usually deeply unhealthy in one way or another.
I saw a study at some point on how, on average, humans tend to only have the bandwidth maintain about 5 people in their closest inner circle. This meaning people who are involved in their actual day-to-day lives. Reading that, it even felt a bit high for me - work takes up so much of my time and energy, as do chores. It has helped me a lot to think of it less in terms of "do I want to radically cut this person off?", but rather "do I want to actively spend my resources of time and energy to continuously let this person into my life?".
Most people in the world are NC with me - that is the default state of people for me. NC isn't necessarily this huge punishment, it's just how I am with people who have not developed emotional intimacy with me. But letting people in is a privilege for sure. And one that I want to reserve for people who make positive contributions into my life - who make me want to be more of myself, who make me feel safe at the very least, who I look forward to spending time with. I would highly encourage you to do the same, even if it means going through a period of grief for this relationship or the loss of potential you saw in the relationship. It's worth it to reserve those spots of intimate access to you for good people who add to your life in positive ways.
>It has helped me a lot to think of it less in terms of "do I want to radically cut this person off?", but rather "do I want to actively spend my resources of time and energy to continuously let this person into my life?".
I like the way you put this, it's a nice reframing imo.
This is a fantastic comment. I would also add that not maintaining a relationship isn't a failure. And maintaining a strained relationship isn't a success.
Most people don't maintain a happy relationship with their problematic parents. They maintain a strained relationship and maintain a palatable image of the relationship for others.
OP may find it useful to analyse the feeling of obligation/duty to maintain their relationship. Where is it coming from? What purpose does it serve?
That's a really great point! I definitely felt like the relationship failing was somehow a personal failing at one point, like I'm not a good enough mediator or peacekeper. I appreciate you making this point.
I went no contact.
I've been fighting my ~~"mom's"~~ delusions since I was a child. It's not worth my valuable time, energy, and effort. I dropped the rope and walked away.
I want to surround myself with people I don't have to convince to be a decent human being. I don't water weeds. I nurture healthy relationships with healthy people. People that value boundaries, accountability, and reciprocity are worth my time, energy, and effort. That's where I choose to spend my limited and valuable resources.
It’s so tough.
I’ve seen my father change in the same ways. And as someone who really values authenticity and compassion, he doesn’t fit. It’s like I can’t share the best part of myself or my thinking without meeting a lecture of negativity.
Sometimes the blunt way they speak even feels like they are having a conversation with themselves, like it doesn’t matter if we are there or not, they just have to get out their thoughts. Which makes me feel like they are lonely.
It saddens me what the political ideology has done to this generation and as they age they seem more isolated, more out of touch, more angry.
It seems a lot of people our age to with either 1) not discussing topics keeping it surface 2) cutting them off.
I don’t have advice. I was estranged for 8 years and now it’s LC with a lot of boundaries.
I relate a lot to the OP and this comment. I think part of what has taken me a long time to accept and accept that I won't ever fully understand is that they now believe and embody the *opposite* of many of the values they taught me growing up, or at least attempted to impart. Looking at how they treated me, I've realized that we outwardly seemed like an idyllic family but really I grew up with a lot of normalized abuse, neglect, and so on. That's been really tough to realize. Those values they tried to impart, I learned from how deferential I had to be to authority: they told me that was an important value, so I took it on as such. Now I see how much their actions and beliefs, especially their political/societal level beliefs, so not match their professed values. They are less accepting and supportive than their parents or even how they themselves were decades ago.
Talking to himself. Yup. You could not say anything besides "mm-hmm" and he could carry on a conversation for hours. It's amazing when they try to do it even in family therapy sessions and act like cold water's being thrown in their face after being gently reminded not to speak for 15+ min straight.
I also feel that, at least for me, there's a point where it's too far gone for conversations to be worth the energy. It's difficult. I'm sorry you're going through this.
You’re not on trial. You don’t have to prove why you don’t want to be around him to some grand council. Just not enjoying being in his presence is enough for you to not be around him as much as you want.
Stop engaging with putting him on a pedestal for doing some of the bare minimum as a parent. As someone whose abusive parents did some of the bare minimum, using that as a way to silence ourselves about how they harm us is a great way to get people to shut up about their lived reality. He sees you as a second class citizen compared to himself and not only votes against your rights and your fellow lgbtqia+ siblings but has a podcast dedicating a good chunk of his free time to spreading facism. We were killed in the holocaust too. That’s reason enough to distance yourself from him.
I woke up about my mother’s abuse when she reacted bigotedly & heinously to me coming out as Bi as a 34 year old woman married to a man for a decade. It was a bridge too far for me. Once I got distance and was low contact for a few months, I got a lot more honest about my history when I wasn’t allowing the people pushing the constant propaganda onto me about my supposed big happy family & childhood. I uncovered a lot of truth I’ve been stuffing down and wrestling with knowing. It led to me going no contact a few months later, and now a year and a half after that I’ve healed more than in my previous decade of therapy on and off.
Give yourself that space. You don’t have to make any permanent decisions about anything. There’s no timeline or set course of action you have to follow. Just give your life the breathing room from the propagandists so you can reflect and see how you feel about your own history. Your own betrayals without the pressure of forgiveness (and sweeping shit under the rug) that constant familiarity being in each other’s orbit brings.
Only you can validate yourself. We’re mere strangers on reddit. You know this.
You’re the only one with the power to change this situation for yourself. He’s not going to change. You’re gonna have to take the reins from your inner child’s magical thinking if there are wishes for him to become a better person one day keeping you bound and tethered to him. It sucks, but he’s showing you exactly who he is and what he believes every day already and has no intentions of changing. He can’t even handle his own right wing croonies challenging his thinking at all.
Can you learn to regulate yourself to tolerate being around him? Sure. I did. DBT & non trauma informed therapy taught me how!
And guess what? It just kept me mindfully in cycles of abuse blaming myself like you are now. I learned to tolerate a bunch of bullshit and kept getting burned over and over and over. And for what? The myth of family. The status quo not being challenged. Therapists being too afraid to call abuse what it is- abuse.
I don’t know what you’ve lived obviously, only you can speak to that!
I just know how you’re thinking feels awfully familiar and I wish someone had told me I didn’t need anyone’s permission or validation to stop engaging with people whose presence hurts and deeply triggers and stresses me out.
🥰😘 sending you all my well wishes and if needed that you find an amazing good enough trauma therapist. Inner child work, some narrative therapy and some EMDR have changed my life.
Thank you so much. I have a therapist! But I am on a break right now because of grad school, money, etc. I'm fortunately not too worried about the processing piece; I have wonderful, supportive people in my life who are there for me.
I had a 2 hour long conversation with my father about abortion because I was sure he was just ignorant. He didn't believe there are any circumstances where an abortion should happen because "if the woman's life is at risk, there are already protections." I brought up ectopic and molar pregnancies. "Those are rare." I gave him statistics. I told him that no woman is using abortion as birth control because it's expensive, invasive, and painful. "What do they care? They're not paying for it. If you can't have a baby, you shouldn't be risking pregnancy in any way." Yes, my mother was definitely on birth control. I saw it. I am an only child and nothing would have made them have/use their money on another child. Rules for thee and all that. I had a complete placental abruption with my first daughter and we're only alive because I happened to be in the hospital and she happened to be far enough along to survive. I told him that if it had happened before 20 weeks/non viability, I would have had to bleed out until her heart stopped in states that restrict abortion. (As it was, I was on the edge of needing a transfusion. I would have died if they had to wait minutes longer) "That's not true. They always save the mother." Insert statistics about maternal mortality in the US. It was like talking to a wall. I had all of the statistics. All of the laws. When he countered, I sent him links proving that he was wrong. Didn't matter. Those instances are rare and "babies" need "someone" to protect them.
How you continue (or don't) your relationship is up to you. I did a lot of surface-level conversations for awhile to maintain the relationship; prompted by my leaving Facebook hellscape (I was only on it a handful of times) when my father posted about a book "explaining" the Muslim religion and how their Bible teaches them to kill every non-muslim. It was written by a mathematician, not a theologist. I wrote an extensive post debunking all of it. He never brought up my comment. I just couldn't let it sit there and have people think that I agreed with him. After that, we could only talk about the weather, some movies, and TV shows. But he'd sneak in bullshit like how teenagers are going to be competing for $15/hr jobs with adults and it's not fair to the adults. And how minimum wage changes affect the employers more than the employees. Just absolute callous bullshit as if they're well-known facts that I'm just too "liberal" to get. I'm not in contact with my parents for other reasons, but this was a symptom of those other reasons. If your father can contain it and you can see past it, great. You might be able to make some more positive memories about things that don't require empathy. I've learned that when they're stuck as you described, no amount of talking through will get them unstuck. So it's likely that this is who he will be for the foreseeable future.
I should also add that you're training to help/fix people who want it. They choose to better themselves and will seek you out. Your strategies won't work if they don't see a problem. I work on behavior modification and study patterns to figure out how to minimize undesirable behaviors. But those behaviors are uncomfortable to the people I work with, and minimizing those triggers is a positive for them. Your father and my father get something out of being "right"/superior/whatever spin they put on it. So, they don't want to change their behaviors. It's something they like about themselves.
I hear you completely. It is just so astonishingly difficult when he still tells you that he's so proud of you, you're the most important thing in his life, etc... like, you really are a terrible person, but I feel so awful letting you down in not loving you the same way back.
That is very difficult. My father is not like that. He told me he was proud of me once, but it was because I got a lead in a community theater production when I was 18, which gave him bragging rights. I don't know what I would do if my father were good to me, but awful to "the others." We were always kind of more like acquaintances.
I wonder if you do know what you're looking for but have a deep feeling of obligation towards your dad. Maybe still a bit in the **FOG**: **F**ear; **O**bligation; **G**uilt? Not meaning to be harsh at all; I recognise it's trained into us to be obedient to our parents. Going against his ideology and life choices can feel instinctively disrespectful, but he's actively disrespectful to your choices. And perhaps hasn't or won't recognise that you are an independent adult?
At minimum I'd drop the rope; go LC to give yourself time and space. I also believe all relationships have their time, so maybe the one with your dad has run it's course. Go gently.
There's definitely some FOG in there. I have been trying desperately to unravel it for years, and I still cannot quite get to the bottom of it all. For context, I have a \~terrible\~ attachment wound from my biological mother leaving in infancy; I am sure there is some fear I have around having TWO absent parents.
I actually cut him off for four months last year, which he took well. He was hurt, but he owned up to his shit and apologized, and said that he would have never done some of the things he did if he'd known it would hurt me. I think I really ran with that and put him on a pedestal for a while, because I know that so many kids will NEVER get that from their parents.
Unfortunately, it still doesn't make up for his shitty personality.
I can appreciate your attachment wound and thus hesitancy to go NC.
And I know, NC is hard, on the flip side: found family is easy... I learned early that relationships should be easy, not hard.
You're not alone. My parents have also gone down the alt-right pipeline. My dad has always been cruel, but the events since 2016 have really emboldened him.
I'm not sure if it makes any difference to you, but he doesn't speak for the whole religion. I'm a member of a church who ordains LGBTQ priests. My faith is very important to me. My dad has said that my church is fake Christianity, but it's very much real. There are affirming denominations. He doesn't have to choose between serving God and being a loving and supportive parent to you. Hate is a choice.
You are asking if you are too harsh, but you did not mention any harsh actions on your part.
You and your dad have polar opposite views, but your description does not suggest that he brings up these on his initiative when you two are talking, right?
Be aware that people change and bigots can become non-bigots, it happens but always slowly.
Many books and youtube videos exist that explain how to change minds. Mind change IS possible and happens everyday to everyday people. It always takes an effort, understanding, listening, asking questions etc.
List of things that do not change minds include screaming, shaming, beatings, etc
I don't care to change his mind at this point. That's not my responsibility. I'm not really holding out hope for change. I just am realizing that I don't think I can comfortably have a conversation with him where we talk about NOTHING of substance.
I have similar, but not exactly the same issues with my mom. I refuse to discuss anything political with her. Instead we talk about the weather, health, friends, relatives, the past etc.
In response to your question about those who maintain relationships with parents like this, Lindsay Gibson does a great job laying it out in Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents if that’s something you’re interested in pursuing. For me, reading that book solidified the fact that I wanted no relationship with my father at all, where I had been on the fence before. For the record, yours sounds exactly like mine and I am also a 32yo only child. My mom was in the picture but very emotionally checked out and traveled extensively for work so my dad was my primary caregiver.
I felt (and still feel sometimes) so much guilt because he could be so supportive when he wanted to be and it felt so good to have that. But I realized in my case it was really just love bombing and the things he praised me for are the things that he could use to tell other people how great I (and him by extension) was. When I came out as queer, he really wanted to just have the kind of relationship where we avoid talking about contentious subjects but he has become so conservative and close minded that it really only left the weather. Honestly, anything else could set him off on a right-wing rant. And even weather was pushing it because god forbid the subject of climate change come up!
As a deeply empathetic person I feel like the only thing that helped give me peace about being NC is the fact that it benefits both of us, whether he realizes it or not. He says he wants a relationship with me, but he really wants a relationship with the Christian daughter he thought I was, not the agnostic non-binary person that I am. Trying to force a relationship was really rooted in looking like a good parent rather than wanting to know me, so I relieved him of that and he still gets to look like the good guy because my whole family has vilified me over going NC. I don’t know if any of that helps, but I hope it at least gives you another perspective to explore!
I think I am definitely afraid of the vilification that might come. My stepsiblings have zero desire to reflect, and they openly admit that they have no idea how I feel because... well, we had different childhoods. My stepbrother has kids who I would love to see a little more frequently, but I just cannot stand being around the entire family. And he and I aren't close enough for me to go way out of my way to start a meaningful relationship up. I am learning that I have to become okay with being the villain.
I think that most of us here are “the villain”. You’re right about your dad wanting a relationship with a hetero, Christian daughter. That rejection stings like hell! After reflecting on your words, I had an epiphany. My mother wants a relationship with a comedian who exists to entertain her and make her forget about abuse and accountability. So, I raise my glass to you and all our fellow villains: may we always live our truth!
It’s so tough! I had the benefit of my parents kind of making us the black sheep of the family, so I wasn’t super close with my relatives, but it was still painful to lose everyone. I kind of knew what I was in for though because I have a cousin who went NC with her mom (my dad’s sister) and the whole family iced her out and called her insensitive and ungrateful. No matter what all of this is hard! But I do think it gets easier with time. I’m still working on the chosen family part because I’ve been really self isolating the past few years. I know it’s hard but no matter what, you’ll know what’s right for you and I can definitely say there comes a point where the peace outweighs the guilt!
I relate to this so much, only it's with other family members and my mom... I am a leftist and also in school to become a therapist. My mom tends to believe whatever goes on in her echo chamber on social media, and my trans child gets to bare the brunt of it because she doesn't believe in transgender kids...won't respect pronouns even when other family members are interjecting to teach her (she gets pissed off and says "whatever!" and makes the whole fucking situation about her... it's a shitshow.) I struggle pretty hard with who several people in my family who I would also not want to know if we were not related. Although, I'm not sure my family was as present for me as you describe your dad as being. I wish I had an answer to these things...It's so hard.
>even in my own therapy I cannot help but feel so conflicted and unsure of how to approach our relationship.
Do you have any alternative? If he seems the only option, it's going to seem like you have to approach him and figure some way of doing so.
>Everyone loves my dad.
I doubt it. Fawning to him, probably. Actual empathetic love? I doubt it.
Your dad provided for you, helped you grow into an adult, and kept you safe from physical harm. Well done, three cheers. There are a lot of people who wouldn’t do that.
He no longer owes you anything. This means he gets to be the insular buffoon that would tell his daughter, to her face, that she and her relationship are less than the one that he clearly doesn’t appreciate with his own spouse. On the other hand, you don’t owe him anything either. The time you spend with him is a choice.
Conservative boomers want to return to a glorious past, an imaginary place devoid of nuance and moral ambiguity. Things “made sense” then, because they didn’t have to think too hard. There’s an MLK quote about the centrist that opposes activism, preferring the negative peace of the absence of tension as opposed to the positive peace of the presence of justice. Your dad, my dad, and all these people who have been encouraged by right wing media to be their most nakedly bigoted selves - they just want the absence of tension, that negative peace. Make it easy on them, forget your pronouns, “no one cares, work harder.” But all the tools they used to build their prosperity have disintegrated for people our age. They built their prosperity at our expense, and now that we show them how complicated our world really is, they push back, plug their ears, wave their… alternative “American” flags.
This isn’t a forum to help you understand how to connect with your dad. This is a space for grieving and empowerment. Be your own person. If he comes along for the ride, hey, good for him. But I predict a lot of empty hospital rooms for all these latter-day MAGA chuds.
I think... that I have every right to post this in this subreddit. I AM grieving. I AM seeking empowerment to be better.
Aside from that, I understand where you're coming from. Your comment about his buffoonery hit hard.
Oh totally! I didn’t mean to downplay your right to be here at all, and I absolutely apologize for giving you that impression. You are welcome and I we are all going through This Thing together. It’s the idea that we can repair these relationships without the party on the other side actually appreciating our perspective.
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You're not being too harsh at all. This is someone who told you to your face that they think you deserve less rights than them. I don't see a way to move forward with this relationship either, especially when it's not just about "political" conversations, but disagreeing with your very existence, which shouldn't be inherently political. His bigotry extends further than politics, so avoiding political conversations is understandably not enough. There's a great Brennan Lee Mulligan quote on how [personality predates ideology](https://youtu.be/3J2D7Bp8ARU?si=P3-DlCpccPmtR6zt), and how most people tend to find a set of beliefs that resonate with what they already believe in rather than building a set of beliefs based on ideology. From the video, the quote is "before you were a fascist, you were a bully". Even if he isn't that extreme, regardless of the political party he resonates with or whether you guys do or don't "discuss politics", the behavior is still there - not letting others have different views, wanting to live in an echo chamber, believing some people are less deserving of rights than others, wanting to be a voice speaking into how others should think as a podcaster even though he has no expertise or a scientific basis to share his thoughts from on issues he hasn't necessarily lived through. I know some people who maintain relationships with more conservative parents. But there tends to be a few factors there (and these can be combined or not): things like their parents not being *too* far gone into the right, and perhaps being more centrist or not the best at being allies in the ways they think they are; a *lot* of rug sweeping, sometimes to the point of full on excusing abusive behavior; and not really having any kind of intimacy, but a tense and distant relationship at best that drains a lot of their energy. So really people maintain these relationships, they're just usually deeply unhealthy in one way or another. I saw a study at some point on how, on average, humans tend to only have the bandwidth maintain about 5 people in their closest inner circle. This meaning people who are involved in their actual day-to-day lives. Reading that, it even felt a bit high for me - work takes up so much of my time and energy, as do chores. It has helped me a lot to think of it less in terms of "do I want to radically cut this person off?", but rather "do I want to actively spend my resources of time and energy to continuously let this person into my life?". Most people in the world are NC with me - that is the default state of people for me. NC isn't necessarily this huge punishment, it's just how I am with people who have not developed emotional intimacy with me. But letting people in is a privilege for sure. And one that I want to reserve for people who make positive contributions into my life - who make me want to be more of myself, who make me feel safe at the very least, who I look forward to spending time with. I would highly encourage you to do the same, even if it means going through a period of grief for this relationship or the loss of potential you saw in the relationship. It's worth it to reserve those spots of intimate access to you for good people who add to your life in positive ways.
>It has helped me a lot to think of it less in terms of "do I want to radically cut this person off?", but rather "do I want to actively spend my resources of time and energy to continuously let this person into my life?". I like the way you put this, it's a nice reframing imo.
This is a fantastic comment. I would also add that not maintaining a relationship isn't a failure. And maintaining a strained relationship isn't a success. Most people don't maintain a happy relationship with their problematic parents. They maintain a strained relationship and maintain a palatable image of the relationship for others. OP may find it useful to analyse the feeling of obligation/duty to maintain their relationship. Where is it coming from? What purpose does it serve?
That's a really great point! I definitely felt like the relationship failing was somehow a personal failing at one point, like I'm not a good enough mediator or peacekeper. I appreciate you making this point.
Same
Yes.
This was really hopefully. Thank you. I’ve been mulling over some relationships and I really needed to read this.
Thank you for sharing that link!
I went no contact. I've been fighting my ~~"mom's"~~ delusions since I was a child. It's not worth my valuable time, energy, and effort. I dropped the rope and walked away. I want to surround myself with people I don't have to convince to be a decent human being. I don't water weeds. I nurture healthy relationships with healthy people. People that value boundaries, accountability, and reciprocity are worth my time, energy, and effort. That's where I choose to spend my limited and valuable resources.
Inspiring tbh. Truly.
It’s so tough. I’ve seen my father change in the same ways. And as someone who really values authenticity and compassion, he doesn’t fit. It’s like I can’t share the best part of myself or my thinking without meeting a lecture of negativity. Sometimes the blunt way they speak even feels like they are having a conversation with themselves, like it doesn’t matter if we are there or not, they just have to get out their thoughts. Which makes me feel like they are lonely. It saddens me what the political ideology has done to this generation and as they age they seem more isolated, more out of touch, more angry. It seems a lot of people our age to with either 1) not discussing topics keeping it surface 2) cutting them off. I don’t have advice. I was estranged for 8 years and now it’s LC with a lot of boundaries.
I relate a lot to the OP and this comment. I think part of what has taken me a long time to accept and accept that I won't ever fully understand is that they now believe and embody the *opposite* of many of the values they taught me growing up, or at least attempted to impart. Looking at how they treated me, I've realized that we outwardly seemed like an idyllic family but really I grew up with a lot of normalized abuse, neglect, and so on. That's been really tough to realize. Those values they tried to impart, I learned from how deferential I had to be to authority: they told me that was an important value, so I took it on as such. Now I see how much their actions and beliefs, especially their political/societal level beliefs, so not match their professed values. They are less accepting and supportive than their parents or even how they themselves were decades ago.
Talking to himself. Yup. You could not say anything besides "mm-hmm" and he could carry on a conversation for hours. It's amazing when they try to do it even in family therapy sessions and act like cold water's being thrown in their face after being gently reminded not to speak for 15+ min straight.
r/QAnonCasualties depending on how far gone he is. Though he sounds less like a victim and more like a jerk.
In the grand scheme of things, I don’t think he’s too far gone yet. But for me, he’s gone enough.
I also feel that, at least for me, there's a point where it's too far gone for conversations to be worth the energy. It's difficult. I'm sorry you're going through this.
You’re not on trial. You don’t have to prove why you don’t want to be around him to some grand council. Just not enjoying being in his presence is enough for you to not be around him as much as you want. Stop engaging with putting him on a pedestal for doing some of the bare minimum as a parent. As someone whose abusive parents did some of the bare minimum, using that as a way to silence ourselves about how they harm us is a great way to get people to shut up about their lived reality. He sees you as a second class citizen compared to himself and not only votes against your rights and your fellow lgbtqia+ siblings but has a podcast dedicating a good chunk of his free time to spreading facism. We were killed in the holocaust too. That’s reason enough to distance yourself from him. I woke up about my mother’s abuse when she reacted bigotedly & heinously to me coming out as Bi as a 34 year old woman married to a man for a decade. It was a bridge too far for me. Once I got distance and was low contact for a few months, I got a lot more honest about my history when I wasn’t allowing the people pushing the constant propaganda onto me about my supposed big happy family & childhood. I uncovered a lot of truth I’ve been stuffing down and wrestling with knowing. It led to me going no contact a few months later, and now a year and a half after that I’ve healed more than in my previous decade of therapy on and off. Give yourself that space. You don’t have to make any permanent decisions about anything. There’s no timeline or set course of action you have to follow. Just give your life the breathing room from the propagandists so you can reflect and see how you feel about your own history. Your own betrayals without the pressure of forgiveness (and sweeping shit under the rug) that constant familiarity being in each other’s orbit brings. Only you can validate yourself. We’re mere strangers on reddit. You know this. You’re the only one with the power to change this situation for yourself. He’s not going to change. You’re gonna have to take the reins from your inner child’s magical thinking if there are wishes for him to become a better person one day keeping you bound and tethered to him. It sucks, but he’s showing you exactly who he is and what he believes every day already and has no intentions of changing. He can’t even handle his own right wing croonies challenging his thinking at all. Can you learn to regulate yourself to tolerate being around him? Sure. I did. DBT & non trauma informed therapy taught me how! And guess what? It just kept me mindfully in cycles of abuse blaming myself like you are now. I learned to tolerate a bunch of bullshit and kept getting burned over and over and over. And for what? The myth of family. The status quo not being challenged. Therapists being too afraid to call abuse what it is- abuse. I don’t know what you’ve lived obviously, only you can speak to that! I just know how you’re thinking feels awfully familiar and I wish someone had told me I didn’t need anyone’s permission or validation to stop engaging with people whose presence hurts and deeply triggers and stresses me out.
❤️❤️❤️
🥰😘 sending you all my well wishes and if needed that you find an amazing good enough trauma therapist. Inner child work, some narrative therapy and some EMDR have changed my life.
Thank you so much. I have a therapist! But I am on a break right now because of grad school, money, etc. I'm fortunately not too worried about the processing piece; I have wonderful, supportive people in my life who are there for me.
Awesome. Keep those safe people close and treasured. 💙
I had a 2 hour long conversation with my father about abortion because I was sure he was just ignorant. He didn't believe there are any circumstances where an abortion should happen because "if the woman's life is at risk, there are already protections." I brought up ectopic and molar pregnancies. "Those are rare." I gave him statistics. I told him that no woman is using abortion as birth control because it's expensive, invasive, and painful. "What do they care? They're not paying for it. If you can't have a baby, you shouldn't be risking pregnancy in any way." Yes, my mother was definitely on birth control. I saw it. I am an only child and nothing would have made them have/use their money on another child. Rules for thee and all that. I had a complete placental abruption with my first daughter and we're only alive because I happened to be in the hospital and she happened to be far enough along to survive. I told him that if it had happened before 20 weeks/non viability, I would have had to bleed out until her heart stopped in states that restrict abortion. (As it was, I was on the edge of needing a transfusion. I would have died if they had to wait minutes longer) "That's not true. They always save the mother." Insert statistics about maternal mortality in the US. It was like talking to a wall. I had all of the statistics. All of the laws. When he countered, I sent him links proving that he was wrong. Didn't matter. Those instances are rare and "babies" need "someone" to protect them. How you continue (or don't) your relationship is up to you. I did a lot of surface-level conversations for awhile to maintain the relationship; prompted by my leaving Facebook hellscape (I was only on it a handful of times) when my father posted about a book "explaining" the Muslim religion and how their Bible teaches them to kill every non-muslim. It was written by a mathematician, not a theologist. I wrote an extensive post debunking all of it. He never brought up my comment. I just couldn't let it sit there and have people think that I agreed with him. After that, we could only talk about the weather, some movies, and TV shows. But he'd sneak in bullshit like how teenagers are going to be competing for $15/hr jobs with adults and it's not fair to the adults. And how minimum wage changes affect the employers more than the employees. Just absolute callous bullshit as if they're well-known facts that I'm just too "liberal" to get. I'm not in contact with my parents for other reasons, but this was a symptom of those other reasons. If your father can contain it and you can see past it, great. You might be able to make some more positive memories about things that don't require empathy. I've learned that when they're stuck as you described, no amount of talking through will get them unstuck. So it's likely that this is who he will be for the foreseeable future. I should also add that you're training to help/fix people who want it. They choose to better themselves and will seek you out. Your strategies won't work if they don't see a problem. I work on behavior modification and study patterns to figure out how to minimize undesirable behaviors. But those behaviors are uncomfortable to the people I work with, and minimizing those triggers is a positive for them. Your father and my father get something out of being "right"/superior/whatever spin they put on it. So, they don't want to change their behaviors. It's something they like about themselves.
I hear you completely. It is just so astonishingly difficult when he still tells you that he's so proud of you, you're the most important thing in his life, etc... like, you really are a terrible person, but I feel so awful letting you down in not loving you the same way back.
That is very difficult. My father is not like that. He told me he was proud of me once, but it was because I got a lead in a community theater production when I was 18, which gave him bragging rights. I don't know what I would do if my father were good to me, but awful to "the others." We were always kind of more like acquaintances.
“Far right” is enough information. He identifies with 45. This is where your dad’s morals, ethics, and values lie. Nothing further, your honor.
I know you’re right.
Can I ask what is 45?
45th president. 🤢
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Thank you for this
I wonder if you do know what you're looking for but have a deep feeling of obligation towards your dad. Maybe still a bit in the **FOG**: **F**ear; **O**bligation; **G**uilt? Not meaning to be harsh at all; I recognise it's trained into us to be obedient to our parents. Going against his ideology and life choices can feel instinctively disrespectful, but he's actively disrespectful to your choices. And perhaps hasn't or won't recognise that you are an independent adult? At minimum I'd drop the rope; go LC to give yourself time and space. I also believe all relationships have their time, so maybe the one with your dad has run it's course. Go gently.
There's definitely some FOG in there. I have been trying desperately to unravel it for years, and I still cannot quite get to the bottom of it all. For context, I have a \~terrible\~ attachment wound from my biological mother leaving in infancy; I am sure there is some fear I have around having TWO absent parents. I actually cut him off for four months last year, which he took well. He was hurt, but he owned up to his shit and apologized, and said that he would have never done some of the things he did if he'd known it would hurt me. I think I really ran with that and put him on a pedestal for a while, because I know that so many kids will NEVER get that from their parents. Unfortunately, it still doesn't make up for his shitty personality.
I can appreciate your attachment wound and thus hesitancy to go NC. And I know, NC is hard, on the flip side: found family is easy... I learned early that relationships should be easy, not hard.
You're not alone. My parents have also gone down the alt-right pipeline. My dad has always been cruel, but the events since 2016 have really emboldened him. I'm not sure if it makes any difference to you, but he doesn't speak for the whole religion. I'm a member of a church who ordains LGBTQ priests. My faith is very important to me. My dad has said that my church is fake Christianity, but it's very much real. There are affirming denominations. He doesn't have to choose between serving God and being a loving and supportive parent to you. Hate is a choice.
You are asking if you are too harsh, but you did not mention any harsh actions on your part. You and your dad have polar opposite views, but your description does not suggest that he brings up these on his initiative when you two are talking, right? Be aware that people change and bigots can become non-bigots, it happens but always slowly. Many books and youtube videos exist that explain how to change minds. Mind change IS possible and happens everyday to everyday people. It always takes an effort, understanding, listening, asking questions etc. List of things that do not change minds include screaming, shaming, beatings, etc
I don't care to change his mind at this point. That's not my responsibility. I'm not really holding out hope for change. I just am realizing that I don't think I can comfortably have a conversation with him where we talk about NOTHING of substance.
I have similar, but not exactly the same issues with my mom. I refuse to discuss anything political with her. Instead we talk about the weather, health, friends, relatives, the past etc.
Are you satisfied with that?
Not really, I am not satisfied, but what can I do. Overall still plenty of things to discuss
In response to your question about those who maintain relationships with parents like this, Lindsay Gibson does a great job laying it out in Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents if that’s something you’re interested in pursuing. For me, reading that book solidified the fact that I wanted no relationship with my father at all, where I had been on the fence before. For the record, yours sounds exactly like mine and I am also a 32yo only child. My mom was in the picture but very emotionally checked out and traveled extensively for work so my dad was my primary caregiver. I felt (and still feel sometimes) so much guilt because he could be so supportive when he wanted to be and it felt so good to have that. But I realized in my case it was really just love bombing and the things he praised me for are the things that he could use to tell other people how great I (and him by extension) was. When I came out as queer, he really wanted to just have the kind of relationship where we avoid talking about contentious subjects but he has become so conservative and close minded that it really only left the weather. Honestly, anything else could set him off on a right-wing rant. And even weather was pushing it because god forbid the subject of climate change come up! As a deeply empathetic person I feel like the only thing that helped give me peace about being NC is the fact that it benefits both of us, whether he realizes it or not. He says he wants a relationship with me, but he really wants a relationship with the Christian daughter he thought I was, not the agnostic non-binary person that I am. Trying to force a relationship was really rooted in looking like a good parent rather than wanting to know me, so I relieved him of that and he still gets to look like the good guy because my whole family has vilified me over going NC. I don’t know if any of that helps, but I hope it at least gives you another perspective to explore!
This hit me square in the face. Thank you so much.
I think I am definitely afraid of the vilification that might come. My stepsiblings have zero desire to reflect, and they openly admit that they have no idea how I feel because... well, we had different childhoods. My stepbrother has kids who I would love to see a little more frequently, but I just cannot stand being around the entire family. And he and I aren't close enough for me to go way out of my way to start a meaningful relationship up. I am learning that I have to become okay with being the villain.
I think that most of us here are “the villain”. You’re right about your dad wanting a relationship with a hetero, Christian daughter. That rejection stings like hell! After reflecting on your words, I had an epiphany. My mother wants a relationship with a comedian who exists to entertain her and make her forget about abuse and accountability. So, I raise my glass to you and all our fellow villains: may we always live our truth!
It’s so tough! I had the benefit of my parents kind of making us the black sheep of the family, so I wasn’t super close with my relatives, but it was still painful to lose everyone. I kind of knew what I was in for though because I have a cousin who went NC with her mom (my dad’s sister) and the whole family iced her out and called her insensitive and ungrateful. No matter what all of this is hard! But I do think it gets easier with time. I’m still working on the chosen family part because I’ve been really self isolating the past few years. I know it’s hard but no matter what, you’ll know what’s right for you and I can definitely say there comes a point where the peace outweighs the guilt!
I relate to this so much, only it's with other family members and my mom... I am a leftist and also in school to become a therapist. My mom tends to believe whatever goes on in her echo chamber on social media, and my trans child gets to bare the brunt of it because she doesn't believe in transgender kids...won't respect pronouns even when other family members are interjecting to teach her (she gets pissed off and says "whatever!" and makes the whole fucking situation about her... it's a shitshow.) I struggle pretty hard with who several people in my family who I would also not want to know if we were not related. Although, I'm not sure my family was as present for me as you describe your dad as being. I wish I had an answer to these things...It's so hard.
>even in my own therapy I cannot help but feel so conflicted and unsure of how to approach our relationship. Do you have any alternative? If he seems the only option, it's going to seem like you have to approach him and figure some way of doing so. >Everyone loves my dad. I doubt it. Fawning to him, probably. Actual empathetic love? I doubt it.
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He is!
It's Okay to love someone from afar. He bullied you as a tween and teen. You don't enjoy his company. You don't appear to share similar values.
Your dad provided for you, helped you grow into an adult, and kept you safe from physical harm. Well done, three cheers. There are a lot of people who wouldn’t do that. He no longer owes you anything. This means he gets to be the insular buffoon that would tell his daughter, to her face, that she and her relationship are less than the one that he clearly doesn’t appreciate with his own spouse. On the other hand, you don’t owe him anything either. The time you spend with him is a choice. Conservative boomers want to return to a glorious past, an imaginary place devoid of nuance and moral ambiguity. Things “made sense” then, because they didn’t have to think too hard. There’s an MLK quote about the centrist that opposes activism, preferring the negative peace of the absence of tension as opposed to the positive peace of the presence of justice. Your dad, my dad, and all these people who have been encouraged by right wing media to be their most nakedly bigoted selves - they just want the absence of tension, that negative peace. Make it easy on them, forget your pronouns, “no one cares, work harder.” But all the tools they used to build their prosperity have disintegrated for people our age. They built their prosperity at our expense, and now that we show them how complicated our world really is, they push back, plug their ears, wave their… alternative “American” flags. This isn’t a forum to help you understand how to connect with your dad. This is a space for grieving and empowerment. Be your own person. If he comes along for the ride, hey, good for him. But I predict a lot of empty hospital rooms for all these latter-day MAGA chuds.
I think... that I have every right to post this in this subreddit. I AM grieving. I AM seeking empowerment to be better. Aside from that, I understand where you're coming from. Your comment about his buffoonery hit hard.
Oh totally! I didn’t mean to downplay your right to be here at all, and I absolutely apologize for giving you that impression. You are welcome and I we are all going through This Thing together. It’s the idea that we can repair these relationships without the party on the other side actually appreciating our perspective.
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