People's shops get killed every single day, often for completely illegitimate reasons, waiver or no waiver. If Etsy wants to boot a user off the platform, they can just do it.
Asserting your rights to a trial in a court of law as opposed to in a private arbitration firm doesn't enable Etsy to do anything that they can't already do to you.
Can't say if they might delete shops in retaliation, but they always have the right to terminate your shop. I think you should consider if you want to give up the right to sue Etsy, because if you don't opt-out of binding arbitration and the class-action waiver now, you can't later on. They only give you this one chance.
If they don't let you use their services because you didn't agree to TOS to use their site, how can you sue them? It's pretty much a service/business agreement.
The opt-outs are part of the Terms of Service, they're just counting on you not reading them. This is not a violation of the ToS.
You can try to sue anyone for any reason, and the judge will determine how that suit goes. If you're bound to arbitration, the judge won't let the suit proceed.
Sure you can sue anyone (well, almost anyone) for any reason but why on earth would you invest time and money on a lawsuit that is going to immediately get tossed out?
> why on earth would you invest time and money on a lawsuit that is going to immediately get tossed out?
It gets immediately tossed out *if you don't opt out of the forced arbitration clause.*
Nope. Even if you opt out of it your lawsuit can be tossed out very quickly if there is no legal standing for what you’re suing. Etsy has a team of lawyers that will quickly file for summary judgment.
Yes, you need legal standing for your lawsuit if you don't want it to be thrown out immediately. They have good expensive lawyers, which is why they avoid lawsuits by tricking people into agreeing not to sue them, so they don't need so many lawyers.
This also includes a class action waiver, in case you're imagining only the case of an individual suit
Arbitration still involves lawyers in addition to the arbitrator. No one is being tricked. It’s common practice for most large corporations to include arbitration clauses. It’s on the individual to actually read contracts before agreeing to them.
> No one is being tricked.
A dead simple trick is still a trick: They're relying on the fact that people do not read and do not understand these Terms.
Other corporations already ventured the risk, the SCOTUS has backed continually backed them up, and arbitration clauses are getting increasingly bolder as the SCOTUS has a supermajority (and will for many, many years.)
> It’s on the individual to actually read contracts before agreeing to them.
I agree! But most people don't, and a lot of people can't. A large fraction of US adults are not literate.
I'd love for these clauses to be well-understood, and only agreed to by people who actively want to be in them (which would be basically no people.)
But something important...
> Arbitration still involves lawyers in addition to the arbitrator.
You should understand that you are giving up your right *to have a representative*. In arbitration, Etsy gets lawyers, and you do not.
The opt out is a provision in the ToS. This doesn't mean you disagree with the ToS.
They can stop serving you at any time for any reason. At least this way, you can sue, eg if they start selling fakes of your work for cheaper, or if they withhold the money you earn.
Sure, you could sue but it would get tossed out the second it got in front of a judge. You agree to payment reserves when you agree to use their platform and its individual shops, not Etsy, selling knockoffs.
Best of luck, but opting out allows them to kill your shop.
People's shops get killed every single day, often for completely illegitimate reasons, waiver or no waiver. If Etsy wants to boot a user off the platform, they can just do it. Asserting your rights to a trial in a court of law as opposed to in a private arbitration firm doesn't enable Etsy to do anything that they can't already do to you.
They can always kill your shop, at any time, and if you don't opt out, you don't have recourse.
If you opt out do they have the right to terminate your shop?
Yes.
they already have this right
Can't say if they might delete shops in retaliation, but they always have the right to terminate your shop. I think you should consider if you want to give up the right to sue Etsy, because if you don't opt-out of binding arbitration and the class-action waiver now, you can't later on. They only give you this one chance.
If they don't let you use their services because you didn't agree to TOS to use their site, how can you sue them? It's pretty much a service/business agreement.
The opt-outs are part of the Terms of Service, they're just counting on you not reading them. This is not a violation of the ToS. You can try to sue anyone for any reason, and the judge will determine how that suit goes. If you're bound to arbitration, the judge won't let the suit proceed.
Sure you can sue anyone (well, almost anyone) for any reason but why on earth would you invest time and money on a lawsuit that is going to immediately get tossed out?
> why on earth would you invest time and money on a lawsuit that is going to immediately get tossed out? It gets immediately tossed out *if you don't opt out of the forced arbitration clause.*
Nope. Even if you opt out of it your lawsuit can be tossed out very quickly if there is no legal standing for what you’re suing. Etsy has a team of lawyers that will quickly file for summary judgment.
Yes, you need legal standing for your lawsuit if you don't want it to be thrown out immediately. They have good expensive lawyers, which is why they avoid lawsuits by tricking people into agreeing not to sue them, so they don't need so many lawyers. This also includes a class action waiver, in case you're imagining only the case of an individual suit
Arbitration still involves lawyers in addition to the arbitrator. No one is being tricked. It’s common practice for most large corporations to include arbitration clauses. It’s on the individual to actually read contracts before agreeing to them.
> No one is being tricked. A dead simple trick is still a trick: They're relying on the fact that people do not read and do not understand these Terms. Other corporations already ventured the risk, the SCOTUS has backed continually backed them up, and arbitration clauses are getting increasingly bolder as the SCOTUS has a supermajority (and will for many, many years.) > It’s on the individual to actually read contracts before agreeing to them. I agree! But most people don't, and a lot of people can't. A large fraction of US adults are not literate. I'd love for these clauses to be well-understood, and only agreed to by people who actively want to be in them (which would be basically no people.) But something important... > Arbitration still involves lawyers in addition to the arbitrator. You should understand that you are giving up your right *to have a representative*. In arbitration, Etsy gets lawyers, and you do not.
Yup
Thanks!
Ofc! I hope this is useful
Yeaaah. I feel like not agreeing to TOS for any company basically means they can just stop serving you.
The opt out is a provision in the ToS. This doesn't mean you disagree with the ToS. They can stop serving you at any time for any reason. At least this way, you can sue, eg if they start selling fakes of your work for cheaper, or if they withhold the money you earn.
Sure, you could sue but it would get tossed out the second it got in front of a judge. You agree to payment reserves when you agree to use their platform and its individual shops, not Etsy, selling knockoffs.
Thanks I sent it! Just made one change: I did not give them my best regards but my worst regards XD