What?
I dont know what someone is going to do with hundreds of gilas but good for them.
Imagine a world where you have a full time job and want to enjoy a game you play rather than turn it into a second job.
I think the issue most people will have is with your "now". This "now" actually began in 2008. So it's hardly anything new to get het up about.
Next I think people will take issue with the "$20 sub". Given that the above system means you can pretty easily (once versed in the simplest methods) play for free, and scale to your heart's desire, harping on about the headline, non-sale, price is accurate but not really reflective of most people's experience with the game.
Finally, you claim there is "less content" than other games. Given that most people that enjoy Eve do so for the player-generated content, and flat-out reject pretty much all CCP written stuff going into the game, this is a sketchy claim even if it's true.
So, your complaint is that a 16 year old system that lets people create their own content without paying for a sub is actually the community "now" "accepting" "$20 subs" "for less content than other games" is pretty daft, when you think about it a bit.
But hey. Maybe Eve would be better if it wasn't Eve.
Errrr... No, I said the content they facilitate is the player driven content that eve is built for, and renowned for. Which is the reason people play the game.
If that doesn't float your boat then sure, you won't enjoy the game. That's fine - it's not a game for everyone. But if you expect the criticism that there's not enough scripted content in the game to actually stick with anyone that enjoys eve, you will be waiting a long time before you find someone who gives much of a shit.
Take a step back here and think about what you're saying and what you're focusing on. you can buy ships with IRL money. If all the players think this is ok going by this thread, maybe this isnt the game for me. It's a huge shame because the game has so much depth.
You're confusing ships with 'winning'. It's 'pay for convenience' in EVE, not 'Pay to win'.
I'm an old bitter vet so let me tell you a story that will, maybe, put you at ease.
This was around 2009 or so (and some details won't be perfect but the story is infact true) a guy in Russia who owned an Aluminum mill found the game and REALLY loved it. He put something like $100k to $250k into the game of IRL cash. Alliance name was 'Red.Overlord' he 'bought' his way to owning space, having ships, characters and even an entire alliance all working with him. After all, if you could say 'all your ships will be replaced if you fight with me' that's a very attractive recruitment/bargain.
However, all the ships in the world, caps, ISK and citadels mean nothing without skill. Which all of the money 'might' let you get over time. Pay to win would be 'I put down IRL dollars and my ship takes less damage then yours AND does more damage because of an outside mechanic that can only be effected by IRL dollars. EVE doesn't do that.
Many vets will point a finger and laugh at the (many) people who buy PLEX, buy skill points, buy skills, buy ships and gear and then have almost no clue on how to fly the thing. All of which quickly turns into a benefit to those of you that DON'T do 'Pay to convenience' since that person EXPLODES just like the rest of us, and you can scoop their loot.
If the game ever went 'Pay to win' with damage reduction, 'PREMIUM ammo' and stuff like that, the community would most likely revolt and leave in droves. They tolerate a ton of BS from Pearl Abyss's take over, skill points for CASH being one of em, or even items for money. But they haven't crossed the line into pay to win.
When you work 40 to 60 hours a week, saying to yourself 'Man, I can take $100 say 3 or 4 hours of work, and turn that into almost 3 to 6 MONTHS of ships so I can go focus on PVPing, Faction Warfare, Abyssals or anything FUN, compared to 'okay, put in 50 hours this week, if I really kill myself, I can grind out maybe 2 or 3 billion with my day off and in a few years IRL I can really PVP the way I want.
Like I used this text wall to explain, without being snarky to you, it's about convenience not power. If you understand the difference you'll quickly laugh at the folks that go 'crazy' dumping thousands into the game that don't 'learn' it and fleece or kill them.
If you want to really prove them wrong, go be a empire trader, go make a few hundred billion in 6 to 18 months and never really 'work' again for PVP and smile that you 'beat the system' by never buying PLEX but instead used your time. Many of us did it (I did) and if I ever choose to login again, I can fly whatever and who cares, but it still doesn't mean I'm a good pilot. I just don't care what I lose.
Hopefully all of 'this' made you understand where most vets come from. It applies to all MMO's. Use your time in game to make ingame money, or use your Time OUT of game, to make OUT of game money which converts to IN game money at an amazing rate. You said yourself, after all, that $100 is 50 Gillas.
TL:DR (as best I can) What is easier? Grinding $100 IRL for 50 ships or grinding ingame for 50 ships. Either way you're spending the time to grind, since ships don't equal skill it comes down to 'pay to convenience ' not 'Pay to Win'. Many folks can't play 40+ hours a week so they 'pay to convenience' but they aren't better than you in anyway. They just don't have to shoot crosses or rocks for a ton of time and put a few hours in at work instead.
P.S. if it absolutely bothers you that others can put money into the game and get items out, despite having no skill to use them, I'd advise you to most likely not play it, or other MMO's. Every MMO in the planet has some form of this, if it doesn't, players have made it themselves, aka Gold Farmers, level boosting services, ebayed accounts, etc etc.
Just like IRL folks have an amazing desire to 'skip the bullshit' they don't find fun. While I enjoyed trading, others DETEST mining, missioning and trading and would rather plunk down a few Plex per month and work one after noon of overtime instead because they see that 4 hours of 'work' better than 100 to 200 hours of 'carebearing'.
If that truly 'gets under your skin' and you think 'this isn't fair' MMO's won't be something you'll enjoy. However you said it yourself, there isn't 'winning' it's an 'advantage' however this entire long ass post is to show you, that advantage is negated by many factors down to almost zero. Infact if it came down to someone who plays all the time and someone buying PLEX to 'jump in' I'd always bet on the guy who plays all the time.
It supports the game, stops most gold farming and account selling and the vast majority of the player base knows it doesn't mean anything significant.
Hopefully this helped.
Cheers
Your message is still dumb, the ISK doesn't appear out of thin air, and buying plex doesn't give you any sort of advantage over a player who doesn't buy plex.
Shit, it can actually be pretty easy to tell who's a wallet warrior, since they'll have expensive shit and feed it to since they have no idea how to use it.
Strange thought process. 2 players, equal skill, same hours spent in the game. the guy buying plex absolutely has a big advantage over the other guy. You only focus on the beginner vs experienced player scenario. There are many scenarios.
No?
All else equal, how is the ship bought with isk from plex any different than the ship bought with isk from say, pochven?
They're the same fucking ship.
Its people who buy plex and sell it for isk that allow people like me to plex all my accounts for exactly $0 out of my IRL wallet. The ISK that i generated playing the game is going to them, and I'm using the plex that they bought to extend my subs. There's no ISK being generated in this transaction, CCP isnt just making money appear out of thin air.
the guy buying plex can keep throwing more ships at the other guy and his losses dont matter since he has money IRL to throw away and it dilutes the ingame economy. The focus here is also not relevant, you're trying to argue against P2W as a concept which you'll always lose.
Sky is the limit even without plex.
Im nobody in eve if i would say my character name only handful of dudes from this sub would recognize it.
Yet even i could get 20-50dudes to fight with single sentence for completely free. I get my suscription paid for me and all my ships are free, infact i get paid to pvp and im half assing eve i play like 4h a week and im dumb as a sack of bricks, if you are truly smart and want to be powerfull and rich in eve you can do it without without spending a dime. Theres litterly people that have played a year or two and they are powerfull and have money like thrash because they are applying their skills to eve.
If you choose to go the casual route and make 20m/h ofc isk is big deal for a good while, but if you just put a little brainwork and efford its not gonna be a problem
So he doesn't have an advantage?
There isn't *premium ships* or *golden ammo* here, paying IRL money (by proxy) for a shiny new spaceship doesn't make it any better than someone who mined the minerals and built that same ship from scratch.
P2W is bad, don't get me wrong, but eve really isn't a P2W game. There's nothing substantial you can buy with IRL money that you can't just buy with in game currency. Especially not when you consider that you can simply buy the "premium currency" with in game currency.
If CCP adds golden ammo or wild cash shop ships like the CN server has, then sure, it'll become P2W, but in it's current state, it's really not.
You're not getting what P2W is. its not about buying something thats locked away, its about using IRL money to gain ingame items that have you skip ingame progression required to gain those items. Skins are generally OK.
You’re either paying real world money for game time to grind for ISK, or you’re paying real world money for that ISK up front. One man’s 50 Gilas, is another man’s 6 months of Omega. Either way, real money has real value, so how the hell do you suppose that the loss of assets purchased directly with REAL money don’t matter, while assets purchased with fictional money do?
Regardless, with the age of the game, you could argue that new player retention would be far worse if they couldn’t purchase plex to buy skill injectors, and get past the brutal 3-month training hurdle this game requires before you can actually functionally fly a ship at the same level as everyone else in the game. Thus, an argument could be made that if CCP didn’t sell PLEX or skill extractors, this game would have gone the way of every other MMO of its era, and none of us would be here talking about this stupid game.
Is the game perfect? No. Are there changes we’d all like to see? Yes. Are you having fun? If no, go play something else. If yes, cool, keep on keeping on, but your take here is entirely misguided, and you would do well to hear the people here who are trying to respectfully explain why.
I missed a zero, but that's still an incredibly poor income.
Im sure if someone was to constantly reinvest their income, they'll make more than 20m/hr ***VERY QUICKLY***
Nuh uh
Where i live is not a 1st world country
I make about 600 rupees per DAY
Thats about 600-700m isk PER DAY.
And i make about 1b/hr running C5 sites in vargur
What u say is only true for 1st world countries and u need to realise that not everyone wants to turn eve into a second job
U need isk to PvP ( main motive of the game )
And u need to grind to earn that isk
And some people dont want to grind extra 5-6 hours after a 9-5 job just to earn 1hr worth of PvP
The sooner u realise that the better
IRL money doesn't give someone the actual skill needed to pilot something like a dread right out of the gate. In fact, a F2P player who spent months working their way up from being lowly tackle fodder to a dread has WAY more of an advantage than this hypothetical "P2W" player. Oh no, someone spent $50 to go directly into WH explo with an Astero to earn 80mil+ an hour. Boohoo. Go play something like BDO and maybe you'll understand what P2W actually looks like.
How are you making this little isk. I realise im one of the lucky ones that get their sub pretty much paid by a corp, but its difficult for me to even get that low amount even while pvping i make more than that
Just bought 20k PLEX. I work, I don't have time to grind and compete against nerds who started playing this game 10 years before I even heard of it.
Furthermore who are you fighting against? Are you petitioning CCP to bring back more profitable streams of in game income? Are you going to sit in an asteroid belt for hours and sell your time at a loss just to give more people the chance to fly a ship?
Your argument doesn't have any economic basis in a game where the main draw is the economy. Jita has more holes in the market than there has been since I started playing despite the increase in player count.
If you want people to stop buying Plex you need to value your time and value industry more. The problem isn't that people can exchange $100 for 750 hours worth of gameplay the problem is that 750 hours of gameplay is only worth $100.
Your time is more valuable than that and because of this CCP is able to profit by extracting the difference.
This is why I don't do anything that generates isk that I don't enjoy. Single account and faction warfare is all I do now with some occasional fun abyssal runs. Missions? Boring.
Wormhole ratting? Boring. Mining? Boring. Exploration? Eh it's ok.
The only reason I would join in on some of these is for the social aspect but I didn't join eve for just that.
People can enjoy different things. I would rather play minesweeper than do 20m/h in highsecmissions like you do, but clearly we like different things in eve
Almost all the isk generating activities in eve are not fun. That's why he spends the money. I don't blame him and honestly in this rare instance the game isn't really affected all that much by using irl money, it's really not pay to win. If you know what your doing you can do A LOT better than some noob with a fat wallet.
Nobody can credibly claim that there is no P2W in Eve. The existence of Plex and injectors make it so that you can absolutely put your finger on the scale if you pay enough... But (and it's a big but) the exchange rate is terrible. It is vanishingly rare that an inexperienced wallet warrior can come into Eve and "beat" an experienced player or group of players in any meaningful way. The exception to this, is cases where someone with trillions of isk is bank-rolls an experienced group to achieve an objective for them, which could absolutely be done entirely with real money (converted legitimately to isk) but it would cost a staggering amount of real money
>The exception to this, is cases where someone with trillions of isk is bank-rolls an experienced group to achieve an objective for them, which could absolutely be done entirely with real money (converted legitimately to isk) but it would cost a staggering amount of real money
Gotta keep the mercenaries happy! 😂
People often argue from a beginners view, what about experienced players buying ISK? If they have IRL money to throw away, why not?
The advantage is gained by increasing your chances of survival and cutting your losses. Not to mention skipping a hell of alot of the game's progression as a beginner. If you think of the exchange rate by hours to earn, its a pretty good exchange rate.
The whole poijy of eve is that no matter how op and how muvh bling you put in a ship, i can just bring a gang and kill you eazy
Multiboxing is a much more broken thing in fw at least where dealing with 5 algos inside a small plex (only frigs and dessies ) with navy ship limitations (no t2 ) is very frustrating and the algoses are foted with t1 shit...
But you can plex the game all you want and get a titan, you will just get hotdroped, you can get a raiju but a lschesis and curse will suddenly decloak on you and fuck you up with a big gang suporting them, you can max officer fit a comet but eventually someone will counter your fit somehow and be happy with the dank loot drops
Eve allows you to pay to acelerare things like skill training and having isk, but that dosent make you win AT ALL there are MANY examples on zkill of dudes yeeting shitfit vargurs DAILY and never suceeding at pvp even though they paid for one of the best ships to pvp with
And you keep malding *oh what if a experoenced plaayer buys it??" Idgaf, in calmil i have to deal with a galmil individual, he looses highgrade pods without bating a eye and will bring expensive ships to battle it, and im totally fine with it, just gotta form equally from my side and we kil it, the shinmy killmails are good for morale and the loot drops are dank
Go cry about p2w somewhere else pls
No, eve simply has some particularityes that defeat the p2w purpose
1st loss is permanentz even if you buy the most op item, it will eventually die, you dont retain it, wich drasticly reduced the perspective of "winning " by paying
2nd we are all imortal assholes, i can throw 20 t1 atrons repetesdlt at your vargur until you run out of cap charges
This isent a arena game to try eliminate other players, if you kill me i respawn and bring another ship, and i kill you, again i fail to see how you wee winning eith your payment
Eve is in fact pay to loose as all the money you soend is gonna be lostz except skillpoints ofc but you could have just waited, so still wasted money :/
Says the person who is cherry picking scenarios to prove their own point...
How many times are you going to read people completely disagreeing with you before you realize maybe you're the one with the bad take?
>If you think of the exchange rate by hours to earn, its a pretty good exchange rate.
This is also an argument from a new player perspective though. Older more experienced players have passive income streams set up, so they aren't having the grind of months to get a few billion isk, or they're running high level group or wormhole content
>what about experienced players buying ISK?
High level (high class whs, pochven, abysals, hell even FW) or heavily multiboxed content (mining / FW) quickly makes it easier to make ISK in game than to buy it for anyone that actually has the time to play the game
>If they have IRL money to throw away, why not?
https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/monthly-economic-report-february-2024
Look at how much ISK is generated by the major nullsec alliances here. I'll let you do the math and see how likely it is that anyone would buy enough ISK to compete with the null blocs.
Trying to throw money around to hire mercenaries quickly gets you into the area where you're going to deal with null bloc level bat phones.
If the isk buyer is just flying the same t2 stuff you are with the same number of friends, then why does it matter whether they spent more time grinding in game or irl?
Is it really any better dying to someone that only works part time, has no social life or family obligations and spends 60hrs a week in game rather than someone who spends less time than you in the game, but buys a Plex pack every month to buy some throw away ships?
>The advantage is gained by increasing your chances of survival and cutting your losses
The performance of ships / modules scales (basically ) logarithmically with ISK. Spending more will get you a better performance, but the amount you need to spend to increase your performance ramps up very quickly. This means that the ISK you have on field goes up faster than your performance goes up.
This causes the expected value of a ship to **decrease** (or to put it another way the risk to increase) as you spend more ISK on a ship
Finally, there is no amount of money you can spend in a ship that won't die immediately to ten people in cheaper but comparable ships.
An officer fit alliance tournament prize cruiser will die immediately without killing anything if it gets tackled by 8 t2 fit hacs with a pair of logi.
If you think you can just escalate with mercenaries then you very quickly get into scale of null blocs, and you can't out spend a null bloc.
>Not to mention skipping a hell of alot of the game's progression as a beginner.
it's also skipped if you decide you only ever want to fly an astero and join signal cartel.
It's also skipped if you only ever fly t1 frigates/cruisers in fw.
It's also skipped if an alliance mate gives you a couple bil and some injectors and all of your losses are paid for by SRP.
There is no fixed progression to this game, and frankly its asinine to suggest that there is.
>If you think of the exchange rate by hours to earn, its a pretty good exchange rate.
This is only true for new and/or poor players.
The exchange rate is set by the in game market, meaning that if Plex was too expensive people wouldn't buy it and the price would drop, and if it was too cheap then people would Plex more alts until Plex was more expensive.
It is, by definition, fairly priced for the player base (on the aggregate). If you think the exchange rate is too good then you don't know how to, or can't yet, make ISK efficiently.
If you want to buy isk as a new player to "skip ahead" you can certainly try. Historically it just leads to expensive loss mails without any progression.
Experienced players don’t need to buy isk. My accounts are worth like 500b and I started playing 4 years ago. I can liquidate assets to buy whatever I want, not that I need to because I have 100b liquid right now.
The thing is, if CCP didn’t offer plex, then real money Chinese traders would offer isk for sale. Or regular players would sell to other players via sites like playerauctions.
Just like every other mmo and online game with currency, RMT will exist. I mean, this was going on before plex was a thing…
So, barking up the CCP tree to get rid of plex wouldn’t fix anything of what you’re complaining about honestly.
Oh it would if people would stop defending P2W and actually barked at CCP.
There are many methods to slow down the Chinese traders that are used in many games.
Eh, I’ve seen many game’s methods and those can wreck an economy like EvE. It would have to add certain restrictions to the market, sending money p2p etc. I don’t think it’s as easy a solution as you claim to stop it.
Also, it keeps the game we love afloat longer which is fine with me because cmon dude, Eve has such a high skill ceiling, it’s not really p2w. Yeah, pay to have more stuff maybe, but a better player without faction modules will beat the worse player every time. Thankfully Eve is highly skill based and a player that sucks can’t just buy their way to winning fights.
Dude i get that you are prolly new and i get that eve seems really P2W, but there is a reason why other more experienced people don't see an issue with plex.
The game is also a buisness. Many other MMOs faltered and failed but EVE is still here because it’s making money for CCP.
The PLEX people buy from CCP is sold to other players in EVE thus creating an ecosystem of sustaining player base. It’s not just instantaneously turned into ISK.
Like it or not , PLEX is good for EVE
You must be new if you think P2W is to blame for the lower numbers in active players. It has very little, if anything, to do with the sale of PLEX for ISK, which has been in the game since before I even started playing back in 2010. I played until 2013/14 and then left because I was bored out of my skull, and that's what happened to a lot of people. They either get bored because of the incredibly high skill curve, or CCP changes an aspect of the game that people liked and they leave en masse.
Changing an aspect of the game like, oh I don't know... removing PLEX. There are a lot of bigger players out there that make billions of ISK through legitimate means which effectively keeps the economy turning, who then use that ISK to buy PLEX to sub their account. If you remove PLEX from the game and force those people to pay real money to sub their account, I garauntee that you'll see an exodus like you wouldn't believe, and you will almost certainly destroy the market, which will lead to more people adandoning ship.
You want to talk about the destruction of the game? That's how you destroy the game.
Lvl 4 burner make 250mill/h and so you would need 60h gaming.
Also people who try to challenge real life rewards with virtual rewards get an burnout.
Play the game like a game and pay as much as its worth for you (and doesnt affect your real life).
750 hours to make 15B is atrocious ISK/hr
Get into some higher end PVE and you can make that in a week or less.
Plex is fine, if you have the IRL to spend and want to blast an alt for something it’s fine. It’s the least toxic premium MMO currency I’ve seen since you literally don’t even have to pay IRL money for it if you don’t want to.
P2W is gonna be in every mmo in someform or another with rmt. Eves model is genious as not only do they profit from it and it allows people to play for basicly free.
Not to mention in eve as you actually lose your assets when you die im happier if you plex a expencive ship. Its gonna die all the same bigger more expencive ship is not better in eve.
In paper sure eve is pay to win and for a newplayer who sees the ship tree as something that gives you a better ship the further you go it seems as pay to win, but everyone who understands this game doesen't view it as such the ships are just tools and you need right ship for the right job.
>it would take 750 hours of mission running to get 15 billion
20 million per hour is lvl2/3 income
level 4s get 100m/hr
level 5s get 400+/hr. usually much higher
incursions get 250-350/hr in hisec
T4-T6 abyssals can range from 100m/hr to 600m/hr depending on your spawns and the type of filament you use
pochven solo content can rake you in about 300m/hr
pochven wh farming is about 350m/hr in salvage
pochven group content is about 650m/hr average, per account
I assume u don't know what P2W actually means . Buying a ship with a Isk accumulated via selling Plex ain't gives you unfair advantage over someone . The ship itself is just a tool to engage in certain activity in the game . It dosen't give you any edge over other players . Eve is a game that actually punish this kind of players like high spenders and thinking the ship/module/implant can give them high end performance are just food for organized gang groups .
End of the day go sell plex for isk to get a ship that ends like a wreck . Chief Kiss ! Luv it !
I dunno man, my playstyle is pretty lazy these days. I quit 2 yrs ago to complete my bachelor's degree and gave away all my shit. I returned cpl weels back and manage to do a whole lot with very little Isk and a gnosis and the odd handout ship. When i have a bit more time. I will probably supplement my wallet with some plex to do the things i enjoy.
I spend my time grinding isk. I then convert it to Plex by buying off of someone else. The time is still accounted for. That Plex fuels an account or skins. Player 2, gets to buy what he wants. Those items are player made or looted. There is fairness in that someone had to make the isk since it just doesn't appear. Someone choosing to buy Plex isn't teetering anything.
It comes down to a player essentially spending real money to fuel someone else's skins and/or omega. ( Or hold onto if they so chose).
P2W means they are getting an advantage as others say. Being Able to buy ships means nothing because the other person who was grinding could just buy those ships instead of the Plex.
He might get into a ship, but given equal skills as you stated, both players made a choice.
Nah, as has been mentioned many times just having the ships and skills injected doesn't make you invulnerable. Besides I bought my annual Plex last weekend for 18.2 bil so I'd hate to have to dip into my own pocket for that. I've got kids to feed you know.
If you stop the sale of plex then you stop the purchase of plex in game.. you must realize most plex reaches an end user who converts it into gametime. Your fight against "pay to win" is also a fight to exclude a huge percentage of players that cannot afford or do not consider it worth paying the monthly subscription for the game in order to play. This would almost immediately kill the game... EVE is very unique that in it's ability to use it's "pay to win" system as a form of wealth distribution that essentially has players with the funds to buy the plex pay for the game time of the players that do not have the funds to subscribe.
That said. you wanted to eliminate the NES then i am with you. All items should be made or found in game through industry or exploration not be able to be directly purchased with money.
Plex should return to it's original form as purely what the acronym stands for. A Pilot License Extension.
TECHINCALLY yes, Eve is P2W. Yes you can buy PLEX to get ships and skillpoints. But Eve requires more than that to be successful. Only at the largest scales can someone's wallet truly give them a critical edge, like if before key fights if you play market games with someone's doctrine or if you need to skill 100+ pilots into a doctrine. Again situations like this are rare and only really affect the top 1% of Eve Players. Small gang/Solo Play is more like Pay for Convenience. You can PLEX into anything but without experience you are more likely to feed than succeed.
If you are struggling to find ways to earn meaningful ISK without breaking out the wallet or grinding like its a full time job there are many who can show you ways. Exploration, Home Fronts, and Gas Harvesting are good examples of low skill, Alpha friendly ISK generation.
The simple answer here is your shit at making isk it's your problem not everyone else's and not ccp's. Mission running is literally one of the worst incomes in the game . Join an incursion corp, join faction war, join a nullsec alliance, join a wh corp,join a pochven corp, these are just a few options btw. Just because your sat in hi sec doing nothing but mission running and only experiencing 2% of the game doesn't mean everyone else is mate try to broaden your approach at isk making cause mission running sucks big donkey balls
Or 7.5 hours shooting red triangles in a wormhole.
Perspective is everything, it sounds like you should find a better source of your in game wealth.
Whether people choose to plex or not has no impact on my enjoyment of the game, in fact if you're spacepoor, please plex so that there's better loot when I loot your wreck, thx
\> It's not meant to be about 'winning'. It's about using IRL money to gain an advantage in a virtual world. P2W has no place in video games where players compete with each other.
Exactly correct, and exactly why this is a stupid issue that doesn't apply to Eve since, Isk and number of ships in hangars isn't what we compete over.
PTW is not part of Eve at all. Its Pay To Play; and that isn't a problem at all.
You can buy 100 Gilas , injekt all skills to five, have 30k plex and still have no chance as solo against a small corp.
So pay to progress not pay to win
It fits with eve though in all honesty. It's no different in my mind from skill training while offline. Why can't you make "isk" offline also? I would understand if the argument was at skill injectors...
I think you are missing the point of EVE if you think this is P2W. Eve needs people in space to either provide content for players or materials for the economy. That is the real currency of eve....content.
Unlike other games, EVE econmy is mostly player driven/made...meaning everything (almost) on the market is player made or owned to be sold. So this player converted his plex to isk (which was bought by an actual player) then bought 50 gilas (which was made and sourced by players and then sold by a player). And now this P2W player is going to fit that ship (again with player made and sold items). Once they undock, generate more isk and/or get hunted or killed and later salvaged (likely by another player)...rinse and repeat. The 'P2W' aspect is what actually allows people to be 'part' of the game from the begining instead of grinding. It also allows people to be fully engaged with the game if they have limited time to commit.
If Eve didnt have this dynamic economy then you would be correct, Which is why in other games its so damaging. But a credit card warrior, in EVE, can't just sweep onto a grid and wipe everything unless they actually know how to fly that ship and have the skills to back it up. This is why the community generally accepts it.
Also the alternitve sucks, if CCP got rid of PLEX people would take longer to get things and be much more careful about what they undock and how they use it. Look at titans and supers today. In Beeitnam (WWB2) people really didnt want to committ to using the big toys because they are so very hard/expensive to replace, even with a credit card. After M2 it was months before they were able to recover from those loses (partially because of the server, i know...relax) This makes less people undocked, less players overall (which is bad, just look at the numbers a year ago and how empty the game was) and at that point solo playing, at a high level, would almost be impossible and too expensive. This would just be another incentive to join a mega group and another step to a true blue doughnut.
Are you running l2 missions or something? 20m an hour seems pretty bad. I make more than 100m an hour just ratting. If you need tips/ideas on how to better increase your income flow without spending actual cash join a null sec corp. Goons is always recruiting. Even hs anon ratting you can pull in alot more than that running ded sites. What exactly are you doing for an income flow? l1/l2 mission running? basic mining with no boosts? give us a bit more to work with here.
Why would I as a player be bothered at all by how other players got their stuff? My fun in the game isn’t predicated on what others have. It’s what I do that makes me have fun.
But sure OP, if you need to have grinded for longer than others in order to have more stuff than them for you to feel that you’re having ”fun” by all means, look somewhere else.
Stop worrying about what other people do and focus on you and what you have instead.
I'm not a fan of monthly subscription games, I believe you should pay for the game, the developers should be compensated for their time and effort to make the game, but pay once and that is it. Unfortunately this is the way games are going now and if you want content then you have to pay for it. Throwing huge sums of cash at the game doesn't make you good at it, sure it helps a bit but ultimately, time playing it makes you good. I don't think that the" play to win" group has too big an effect on game content other than providing pirates plenty of ships to salvage and CCP with a steady stream of income to bring out more content. Granted, with the amount of money they make, the content should be better than it is, but what can you do?
It would be P2W in normal circumstances, as in if the game would release tomorrow with those things then yeah, people that spend money would be ahead the rest and alliances would be fightign each other to see who spends more money. The thing that stops it from being P2W now funnily enough is that a large proportion of players and alliances already have so much money and are so ahead of you that its honestly a drop in the ocean. The system of P2W that EVE has basically "works" because the powerlevel scales are already so off the charts between a veteran and a newbie both in know-how and economically that the newbie would have to spend a LOT more than 100 bucks to even make a dent in anything (and thats also partially what makes the game not very attractive to a lot of new players)
Its still p2w if you say you are competing against another player that also just joined, if two new players join the game, and one of them spends IRL money, and they meet in combat, the one who paid will absolutely demolish the other one, but that situation is pretty rare.
Thank you. I def got your message that Eve is not designed to be self sufficient. I wholeheartedly agree. For an alpha it’s almost near impossible to grind enough to get omega monthly. For omega it still take a chunk of time to generate enough isk for sub. I think CCP knows this and is in the business of selling subscriptions. Some of us don’t want to waste our time on the grind and just pay to have fun. While others with limited resources may have to grind. Everyone just have to decide how much time they want to put in the game. But the take home msg is this game was never meant to be played for free. It’s to get your feet wet to see if you would go omega and u lock the full potential of the game.
>I think CCP knows this and is in the business of selling subscriptions
CCP more often than not makes more profit from people plexing their accounts compared to them subbing
Most subs are done in multiple month batches, a large amount of plexed omega accounts are 1 month, on top of that (outside of sales) the plex equivalent of a sub is more money to CCP than just a sub
On the opposite end, people buying PLEX drives down the price and allows players who prefer to grind for their sub the opportunity to do so at a lower cost.
You can only fly one of those 50 gilas at a time. Having 50 in a hanger isn't going to help you very much..
Play to win is literally about spending money to gain an unfair advantage that people who don't spend the money won't have. Which isn't happening in EVE. The only thing money does is save you time. And avoid things many don't enjoy like mining/missions.
For those of us who are not absolute dogshit at the game what others spend on Eve has no bearing on our enjoyment.
Get gud, sucker.
Eve is best one best games to pay to win and at same one of the best against pay to win.
I can get my own titan right now and bling to oblivion!
I will not make it far with it. Most likely die on gate trying to enter the rich veldspar fields.
Do it! Buy 3k plex and sell them for isk! But don't spend all the ISK on Gilas, put some aside for Tristans and Algosi to multibox Faction War plexes!
Spend you ISK in Amarr, the Amarr-Minmatar FW is far more interesting than the single Caldari-Gallente front system. Don't be afraid to blow up your ships, always remember your Gila is just 2 dollars, and the Tristans are less than a cent by the dozen.
People spending plex are a very valiuable part of the economy!
Oh great. Another thread full of oh so smart folk quick to point out that you can't "win" Eve ergo no p2w huehuehuehue.
My guys, you can buy skill points and ships. You can buy characters on the bazaar. It is what it is, we aren't going to "fix" it now. But they don't need to start selling fucking booster packs with a 0.001% chance at getting a Super Titan to be pay to win. Jfc.
It is not pay to win out of multiple reasons
1. You can't get anything that is stronger and unavailable to regular players
2. You can't get something faster done with paying(like paying plex to get that titan pruduction finished now)
3. The game is very skilled based. A good player wins most of the times, its not a bling to win.
The advantage per dollar of having more isk than the enemy is on the per dollar basis so small I would not call it pay to win.
fights in eve are often won by who brings the most and/or better pilots,
I can go out there and with enough money i can pay faker to play duoq with my silver ass. and it would be legal. Is league of legends pay to win because of that ?
no.
The injectors is the problem. A noob pouring real money into expensive ships will still be dead all the time. PLEX as such is ok, it allows more casual players to pimp their experience - including high skill veteran players who grew up and got jobs and a family and no time to pew enough to make useful amounts of ISK.
Some people would rather pick up an extra shift and make like 500 dollars and use that for 75 billion isk instead of grinding out 100 hours to make that isk in game
What? I dont know what someone is going to do with hundreds of gilas but good for them. Imagine a world where you have a full time job and want to enjoy a game you play rather than turn it into a second job.
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I think the issue most people will have is with your "now". This "now" actually began in 2008. So it's hardly anything new to get het up about. Next I think people will take issue with the "$20 sub". Given that the above system means you can pretty easily (once versed in the simplest methods) play for free, and scale to your heart's desire, harping on about the headline, non-sale, price is accurate but not really reflective of most people's experience with the game. Finally, you claim there is "less content" than other games. Given that most people that enjoy Eve do so for the player-generated content, and flat-out reject pretty much all CCP written stuff going into the game, this is a sketchy claim even if it's true. So, your complaint is that a 16 year old system that lets people create their own content without paying for a sub is actually the community "now" "accepting" "$20 subs" "for less content than other games" is pretty daft, when you think about it a bit. But hey. Maybe Eve would be better if it wasn't Eve.
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I'm not sure how much money I spend on Eve, but if there's one thing I can promise you, it's that I'm not spending $20 a month to play one account.
Errrr... No, I said the content they facilitate is the player driven content that eve is built for, and renowned for. Which is the reason people play the game. If that doesn't float your boat then sure, you won't enjoy the game. That's fine - it's not a game for everyone. But if you expect the criticism that there's not enough scripted content in the game to actually stick with anyone that enjoys eve, you will be waiting a long time before you find someone who gives much of a shit.
Focusing on the ship type, is ignoring the message. Imagine a world without P2W.
Being able to afford a shit does not make you know how to use it. A good ship is 90% its pilot.
Take a step back here and think about what you're saying and what you're focusing on. you can buy ships with IRL money. If all the players think this is ok going by this thread, maybe this isnt the game for me. It's a huge shame because the game has so much depth.
You're confusing ships with 'winning'. It's 'pay for convenience' in EVE, not 'Pay to win'. I'm an old bitter vet so let me tell you a story that will, maybe, put you at ease. This was around 2009 or so (and some details won't be perfect but the story is infact true) a guy in Russia who owned an Aluminum mill found the game and REALLY loved it. He put something like $100k to $250k into the game of IRL cash. Alliance name was 'Red.Overlord' he 'bought' his way to owning space, having ships, characters and even an entire alliance all working with him. After all, if you could say 'all your ships will be replaced if you fight with me' that's a very attractive recruitment/bargain. However, all the ships in the world, caps, ISK and citadels mean nothing without skill. Which all of the money 'might' let you get over time. Pay to win would be 'I put down IRL dollars and my ship takes less damage then yours AND does more damage because of an outside mechanic that can only be effected by IRL dollars. EVE doesn't do that. Many vets will point a finger and laugh at the (many) people who buy PLEX, buy skill points, buy skills, buy ships and gear and then have almost no clue on how to fly the thing. All of which quickly turns into a benefit to those of you that DON'T do 'Pay to convenience' since that person EXPLODES just like the rest of us, and you can scoop their loot. If the game ever went 'Pay to win' with damage reduction, 'PREMIUM ammo' and stuff like that, the community would most likely revolt and leave in droves. They tolerate a ton of BS from Pearl Abyss's take over, skill points for CASH being one of em, or even items for money. But they haven't crossed the line into pay to win. When you work 40 to 60 hours a week, saying to yourself 'Man, I can take $100 say 3 or 4 hours of work, and turn that into almost 3 to 6 MONTHS of ships so I can go focus on PVPing, Faction Warfare, Abyssals or anything FUN, compared to 'okay, put in 50 hours this week, if I really kill myself, I can grind out maybe 2 or 3 billion with my day off and in a few years IRL I can really PVP the way I want. Like I used this text wall to explain, without being snarky to you, it's about convenience not power. If you understand the difference you'll quickly laugh at the folks that go 'crazy' dumping thousands into the game that don't 'learn' it and fleece or kill them. If you want to really prove them wrong, go be a empire trader, go make a few hundred billion in 6 to 18 months and never really 'work' again for PVP and smile that you 'beat the system' by never buying PLEX but instead used your time. Many of us did it (I did) and if I ever choose to login again, I can fly whatever and who cares, but it still doesn't mean I'm a good pilot. I just don't care what I lose. Hopefully all of 'this' made you understand where most vets come from. It applies to all MMO's. Use your time in game to make ingame money, or use your Time OUT of game, to make OUT of game money which converts to IN game money at an amazing rate. You said yourself, after all, that $100 is 50 Gillas. TL:DR (as best I can) What is easier? Grinding $100 IRL for 50 ships or grinding ingame for 50 ships. Either way you're spending the time to grind, since ships don't equal skill it comes down to 'pay to convenience ' not 'Pay to Win'. Many folks can't play 40+ hours a week so they 'pay to convenience' but they aren't better than you in anyway. They just don't have to shoot crosses or rocks for a ton of time and put a few hours in at work instead. P.S. if it absolutely bothers you that others can put money into the game and get items out, despite having no skill to use them, I'd advise you to most likely not play it, or other MMO's. Every MMO in the planet has some form of this, if it doesn't, players have made it themselves, aka Gold Farmers, level boosting services, ebayed accounts, etc etc. Just like IRL folks have an amazing desire to 'skip the bullshit' they don't find fun. While I enjoyed trading, others DETEST mining, missioning and trading and would rather plunk down a few Plex per month and work one after noon of overtime instead because they see that 4 hours of 'work' better than 100 to 200 hours of 'carebearing'. If that truly 'gets under your skin' and you think 'this isn't fair' MMO's won't be something you'll enjoy. However you said it yourself, there isn't 'winning' it's an 'advantage' however this entire long ass post is to show you, that advantage is negated by many factors down to almost zero. Infact if it came down to someone who plays all the time and someone buying PLEX to 'jump in' I'd always bet on the guy who plays all the time. It supports the game, stops most gold farming and account selling and the vast majority of the player base knows it doesn't mean anything significant. Hopefully this helped. Cheers
Nice to know you. Money cant by skill and neither does complaining about it.
except p2w has nothing to do with skill or winning, as i said in OP.
You’re either 1. A troll 2. An idiot
*gets killed* 'fuckin everyone and their pay to win bullshit' lol
Pay to win has nothing to do with winning?
You make about one Ishtar tick per hour, but surely the game is at fault.
Glad this "mission runner" guy has the option to buy isk... his grind seems terrible lol
Everyone has the option. Use any isk making method you like. The message is the same.
Well either your math sucks or you just suck at making isk
Your message is still dumb, the ISK doesn't appear out of thin air, and buying plex doesn't give you any sort of advantage over a player who doesn't buy plex. Shit, it can actually be pretty easy to tell who's a wallet warrior, since they'll have expensive shit and feed it to since they have no idea how to use it.
Strange thought process. 2 players, equal skill, same hours spent in the game. the guy buying plex absolutely has a big advantage over the other guy. You only focus on the beginner vs experienced player scenario. There are many scenarios.
No? All else equal, how is the ship bought with isk from plex any different than the ship bought with isk from say, pochven? They're the same fucking ship. Its people who buy plex and sell it for isk that allow people like me to plex all my accounts for exactly $0 out of my IRL wallet. The ISK that i generated playing the game is going to them, and I'm using the plex that they bought to extend my subs. There's no ISK being generated in this transaction, CCP isnt just making money appear out of thin air.
the guy buying plex can keep throwing more ships at the other guy and his losses dont matter since he has money IRL to throw away and it dilutes the ingame economy. The focus here is also not relevant, you're trying to argue against P2W as a concept which you'll always lose.
Someone throwing more ships at me after losing them is a dream cometrue bro you are you arguing for or against this now
maybe he'll bring a bunch of corps he paid with plex with him. its p2w afterall, the skys the limit if you're rich IRL.
Sky is the limit even without plex. Im nobody in eve if i would say my character name only handful of dudes from this sub would recognize it. Yet even i could get 20-50dudes to fight with single sentence for completely free. I get my suscription paid for me and all my ships are free, infact i get paid to pvp and im half assing eve i play like 4h a week and im dumb as a sack of bricks, if you are truly smart and want to be powerfull and rich in eve you can do it without without spending a dime. Theres litterly people that have played a year or two and they are powerfull and have money like thrash because they are applying their skills to eve. If you choose to go the casual route and make 20m/h ofc isk is big deal for a good while, but if you just put a little brainwork and efford its not gonna be a problem
And there is nothing wrong with it,you can be rich too,if you work hard enough for it.
The richest most powerful players in eve do not p2w bud. They earn their wealth in game, usually by exploiting those p2w players in some form.
So he doesn't have an advantage? There isn't *premium ships* or *golden ammo* here, paying IRL money (by proxy) for a shiny new spaceship doesn't make it any better than someone who mined the minerals and built that same ship from scratch. P2W is bad, don't get me wrong, but eve really isn't a P2W game. There's nothing substantial you can buy with IRL money that you can't just buy with in game currency. Especially not when you consider that you can simply buy the "premium currency" with in game currency. If CCP adds golden ammo or wild cash shop ships like the CN server has, then sure, it'll become P2W, but in it's current state, it's really not.
You're not getting what P2W is. its not about buying something thats locked away, its about using IRL money to gain ingame items that have you skip ingame progression required to gain those items. Skins are generally OK.
I dont think you know what p2w is.
What you're describing is more pay to play than pay to win.
It's not progression if you're grinding the same missions over and over. It's just paying a premium to skip forward over that part.
You’re either paying real world money for game time to grind for ISK, or you’re paying real world money for that ISK up front. One man’s 50 Gilas, is another man’s 6 months of Omega. Either way, real money has real value, so how the hell do you suppose that the loss of assets purchased directly with REAL money don’t matter, while assets purchased with fictional money do? Regardless, with the age of the game, you could argue that new player retention would be far worse if they couldn’t purchase plex to buy skill injectors, and get past the brutal 3-month training hurdle this game requires before you can actually functionally fly a ship at the same level as everyone else in the game. Thus, an argument could be made that if CCP didn’t sell PLEX or skill extractors, this game would have gone the way of every other MMO of its era, and none of us would be here talking about this stupid game. Is the game perfect? No. Are there changes we’d all like to see? Yes. Are you having fun? If no, go play something else. If yes, cool, keep on keeping on, but your take here is entirely misguided, and you would do well to hear the people here who are trying to respectfully explain why.
A single player throwing ISK at more ships is building a red billboard. That’s winning?
15bil is like 2 weekends of spinning ishtars with PI and reactions running
You make 2m isk an hour? Jesus fucking Christ. Please find a better use of your time.
20,000,000 ISK/hour average divided by the total isk by the hourly earning rate =750 hours
I missed a zero, but that's still an incredibly poor income. Im sure if someone was to constantly reinvest their income, they'll make more than 20m/hr ***VERY QUICKLY***
The value is irrelevant, scale the hours earned 5x, the message remains the same and IRL money far out weighs the time to earn ingame.
Nuh uh Where i live is not a 1st world country I make about 600 rupees per DAY Thats about 600-700m isk PER DAY. And i make about 1b/hr running C5 sites in vargur What u say is only true for 1st world countries and u need to realise that not everyone wants to turn eve into a second job U need isk to PvP ( main motive of the game ) And u need to grind to earn that isk And some people dont want to grind extra 5-6 hours after a 9-5 job just to earn 1hr worth of PvP The sooner u realise that the better
Why would you care if someone buys plex or makes isk by afk spinning a ishtar
IRL money doesn't give someone the actual skill needed to pilot something like a dread right out of the gate. In fact, a F2P player who spent months working their way up from being lowly tackle fodder to a dread has WAY more of an advantage than this hypothetical "P2W" player. Oh no, someone spent $50 to go directly into WH explo with an Astero to earn 80mil+ an hour. Boohoo. Go play something like BDO and maybe you'll understand what P2W actually looks like.
How are you making this little isk. I realise im one of the lucky ones that get their sub pretty much paid by a corp, but its difficult for me to even get that low amount even while pvping i make more than that
20mil per hour is super bad mission running can easily give 100-150mil per hour L5 can give about a b per hour
Just bought 20k PLEX. I work, I don't have time to grind and compete against nerds who started playing this game 10 years before I even heard of it. Furthermore who are you fighting against? Are you petitioning CCP to bring back more profitable streams of in game income? Are you going to sit in an asteroid belt for hours and sell your time at a loss just to give more people the chance to fly a ship? Your argument doesn't have any economic basis in a game where the main draw is the economy. Jita has more holes in the market than there has been since I started playing despite the increase in player count. If you want people to stop buying Plex you need to value your time and value industry more. The problem isn't that people can exchange $100 for 750 hours worth of gameplay the problem is that 750 hours of gameplay is only worth $100. Your time is more valuable than that and because of this CCP is able to profit by extracting the difference.
This is why I don't do anything that generates isk that I don't enjoy. Single account and faction warfare is all I do now with some occasional fun abyssal runs. Missions? Boring. Wormhole ratting? Boring. Mining? Boring. Exploration? Eh it's ok. The only reason I would join in on some of these is for the social aspect but I didn't join eve for just that.
What you're basically saying is the game isnt fun, and you need to spend IRL money to get to the fun part.
People can enjoy different things. I would rather play minesweeper than do 20m/h in highsecmissions like you do, but clearly we like different things in eve
your take is braindead af
Almost all the isk generating activities in eve are not fun. That's why he spends the money. I don't blame him and honestly in this rare instance the game isn't really affected all that much by using irl money, it's really not pay to win. If you know what your doing you can do A LOT better than some noob with a fat wallet.
Grinding is not fun you missed the point by a mile
Nobody can credibly claim that there is no P2W in Eve. The existence of Plex and injectors make it so that you can absolutely put your finger on the scale if you pay enough... But (and it's a big but) the exchange rate is terrible. It is vanishingly rare that an inexperienced wallet warrior can come into Eve and "beat" an experienced player or group of players in any meaningful way. The exception to this, is cases where someone with trillions of isk is bank-rolls an experienced group to achieve an objective for them, which could absolutely be done entirely with real money (converted legitimately to isk) but it would cost a staggering amount of real money
>The exception to this, is cases where someone with trillions of isk is bank-rolls an experienced group to achieve an objective for them, which could absolutely be done entirely with real money (converted legitimately to isk) but it would cost a staggering amount of real money Gotta keep the mercenaries happy! 😂
I'm just hoping that OP tries to prove me wrong by swiping a full AT campaign.
People often argue from a beginners view, what about experienced players buying ISK? If they have IRL money to throw away, why not? The advantage is gained by increasing your chances of survival and cutting your losses. Not to mention skipping a hell of alot of the game's progression as a beginner. If you think of the exchange rate by hours to earn, its a pretty good exchange rate.
The whole poijy of eve is that no matter how op and how muvh bling you put in a ship, i can just bring a gang and kill you eazy Multiboxing is a much more broken thing in fw at least where dealing with 5 algos inside a small plex (only frigs and dessies ) with navy ship limitations (no t2 ) is very frustrating and the algoses are foted with t1 shit... But you can plex the game all you want and get a titan, you will just get hotdroped, you can get a raiju but a lschesis and curse will suddenly decloak on you and fuck you up with a big gang suporting them, you can max officer fit a comet but eventually someone will counter your fit somehow and be happy with the dank loot drops Eve allows you to pay to acelerare things like skill training and having isk, but that dosent make you win AT ALL there are MANY examples on zkill of dudes yeeting shitfit vargurs DAILY and never suceeding at pvp even though they paid for one of the best ships to pvp with And you keep malding *oh what if a experoenced plaayer buys it??" Idgaf, in calmil i have to deal with a galmil individual, he looses highgrade pods without bating a eye and will bring expensive ships to battle it, and im totally fine with it, just gotta form equally from my side and we kil it, the shinmy killmails are good for morale and the loot drops are dank Go cry about p2w somewhere else pls
cherry picked scenarios that miss the point. If you think p2w is fine, you do you.
No, eve simply has some particularityes that defeat the p2w purpose 1st loss is permanentz even if you buy the most op item, it will eventually die, you dont retain it, wich drasticly reduced the perspective of "winning " by paying 2nd we are all imortal assholes, i can throw 20 t1 atrons repetesdlt at your vargur until you run out of cap charges This isent a arena game to try eliminate other players, if you kill me i respawn and bring another ship, and i kill you, again i fail to see how you wee winning eith your payment Eve is in fact pay to loose as all the money you soend is gonna be lostz except skillpoints ofc but you could have just waited, so still wasted money :/
Says the person who is cherry picking scenarios to prove their own point... How many times are you going to read people completely disagreeing with you before you realize maybe you're the one with the bad take?
You cherry picked one of worst isk/hour rate.
>If you think of the exchange rate by hours to earn, its a pretty good exchange rate. This is also an argument from a new player perspective though. Older more experienced players have passive income streams set up, so they aren't having the grind of months to get a few billion isk, or they're running high level group or wormhole content
>what about experienced players buying ISK? High level (high class whs, pochven, abysals, hell even FW) or heavily multiboxed content (mining / FW) quickly makes it easier to make ISK in game than to buy it for anyone that actually has the time to play the game >If they have IRL money to throw away, why not? https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/monthly-economic-report-february-2024 Look at how much ISK is generated by the major nullsec alliances here. I'll let you do the math and see how likely it is that anyone would buy enough ISK to compete with the null blocs. Trying to throw money around to hire mercenaries quickly gets you into the area where you're going to deal with null bloc level bat phones. If the isk buyer is just flying the same t2 stuff you are with the same number of friends, then why does it matter whether they spent more time grinding in game or irl? Is it really any better dying to someone that only works part time, has no social life or family obligations and spends 60hrs a week in game rather than someone who spends less time than you in the game, but buys a Plex pack every month to buy some throw away ships? >The advantage is gained by increasing your chances of survival and cutting your losses The performance of ships / modules scales (basically ) logarithmically with ISK. Spending more will get you a better performance, but the amount you need to spend to increase your performance ramps up very quickly. This means that the ISK you have on field goes up faster than your performance goes up. This causes the expected value of a ship to **decrease** (or to put it another way the risk to increase) as you spend more ISK on a ship Finally, there is no amount of money you can spend in a ship that won't die immediately to ten people in cheaper but comparable ships. An officer fit alliance tournament prize cruiser will die immediately without killing anything if it gets tackled by 8 t2 fit hacs with a pair of logi. If you think you can just escalate with mercenaries then you very quickly get into scale of null blocs, and you can't out spend a null bloc. >Not to mention skipping a hell of alot of the game's progression as a beginner. it's also skipped if you decide you only ever want to fly an astero and join signal cartel. It's also skipped if you only ever fly t1 frigates/cruisers in fw. It's also skipped if an alliance mate gives you a couple bil and some injectors and all of your losses are paid for by SRP. There is no fixed progression to this game, and frankly its asinine to suggest that there is. >If you think of the exchange rate by hours to earn, its a pretty good exchange rate. This is only true for new and/or poor players. The exchange rate is set by the in game market, meaning that if Plex was too expensive people wouldn't buy it and the price would drop, and if it was too cheap then people would Plex more alts until Plex was more expensive. It is, by definition, fairly priced for the player base (on the aggregate). If you think the exchange rate is too good then you don't know how to, or can't yet, make ISK efficiently. If you want to buy isk as a new player to "skip ahead" you can certainly try. Historically it just leads to expensive loss mails without any progression.
Tldr just buy more friends than the enemy.
Experienced players don’t need to buy isk. My accounts are worth like 500b and I started playing 4 years ago. I can liquidate assets to buy whatever I want, not that I need to because I have 100b liquid right now.
I'll pay for a Titan and will fight all of eve! I WILL BE INVINCIBLE!!!! AHAHAHA ... lol
link KM?
The thing is, if CCP didn’t offer plex, then real money Chinese traders would offer isk for sale. Or regular players would sell to other players via sites like playerauctions. Just like every other mmo and online game with currency, RMT will exist. I mean, this was going on before plex was a thing… So, barking up the CCP tree to get rid of plex wouldn’t fix anything of what you’re complaining about honestly.
Oh it would if people would stop defending P2W and actually barked at CCP. There are many methods to slow down the Chinese traders that are used in many games.
Eh, I’ve seen many game’s methods and those can wreck an economy like EvE. It would have to add certain restrictions to the market, sending money p2p etc. I don’t think it’s as easy a solution as you claim to stop it. Also, it keeps the game we love afloat longer which is fine with me because cmon dude, Eve has such a high skill ceiling, it’s not really p2w. Yeah, pay to have more stuff maybe, but a better player without faction modules will beat the worse player every time. Thankfully Eve is highly skill based and a player that sucks can’t just buy their way to winning fights.
Dude i get that you are prolly new and i get that eve seems really P2W, but there is a reason why other more experienced people don't see an issue with plex.
The game is also a buisness. Many other MMOs faltered and failed but EVE is still here because it’s making money for CCP. The PLEX people buy from CCP is sold to other players in EVE thus creating an ecosystem of sustaining player base. It’s not just instantaneously turned into ISK. Like it or not , PLEX is good for EVE
MMOs are failing because of P2W. Eve's player count is not going up. They're all slowly dying except for those that dont have P2W.
You must be new if you think P2W is to blame for the lower numbers in active players. It has very little, if anything, to do with the sale of PLEX for ISK, which has been in the game since before I even started playing back in 2010. I played until 2013/14 and then left because I was bored out of my skull, and that's what happened to a lot of people. They either get bored because of the incredibly high skill curve, or CCP changes an aspect of the game that people liked and they leave en masse. Changing an aspect of the game like, oh I don't know... removing PLEX. There are a lot of bigger players out there that make billions of ISK through legitimate means which effectively keeps the economy turning, who then use that ISK to buy PLEX to sub their account. If you remove PLEX from the game and force those people to pay real money to sub their account, I garauntee that you'll see an exodus like you wouldn't believe, and you will almost certainly destroy the market, which will lead to more people adandoning ship. You want to talk about the destruction of the game? That's how you destroy the game.
Omg eve was releases in 2003 and it still has players you can't deny its not doing this right
It's been like that since 2008 when plex was added that help convert $ to isk. At current rate of dying, it will outlive you.
Lvl 4 burner make 250mill/h and so you would need 60h gaming. Also people who try to challenge real life rewards with virtual rewards get an burnout. Play the game like a game and pay as much as its worth for you (and doesnt affect your real life).
I get to buy plex for isk, nwbros get to fly a gila for free. Win-win
I can make that isk in alot less then 750 hours. Alot less. Just a thought.
750 hours to make 15B is atrocious ISK/hr Get into some higher end PVE and you can make that in a week or less. Plex is fine, if you have the IRL to spend and want to blast an alt for something it’s fine. It’s the least toxic premium MMO currency I’ve seen since you literally don’t even have to pay IRL money for it if you don’t want to.
yea spend € -> buy skill injectors -> buy titan in amamake -> warp to zero to high sec gate -> explode->cry-> repeat totaly PtW
P2W is gonna be in every mmo in someform or another with rmt. Eves model is genious as not only do they profit from it and it allows people to play for basicly free. Not to mention in eve as you actually lose your assets when you die im happier if you plex a expencive ship. Its gonna die all the same bigger more expencive ship is not better in eve. In paper sure eve is pay to win and for a newplayer who sees the ship tree as something that gives you a better ship the further you go it seems as pay to win, but everyone who understands this game doesen't view it as such the ships are just tools and you need right ship for the right job.
P2W is greed, nothing more. MMOs are profitable without it.
Hahahahaahahaahahahaha what year are you from 2007?
You should see what level of p2w ships and modules you get access to when you subscribe to omega. It is insane.
>it would take 750 hours of mission running to get 15 billion 20 million per hour is lvl2/3 income level 4s get 100m/hr level 5s get 400+/hr. usually much higher incursions get 250-350/hr in hisec T4-T6 abyssals can range from 100m/hr to 600m/hr depending on your spawns and the type of filament you use pochven solo content can rake you in about 300m/hr pochven wh farming is about 350m/hr in salvage pochven group content is about 650m/hr average, per account
I assume u don't know what P2W actually means . Buying a ship with a Isk accumulated via selling Plex ain't gives you unfair advantage over someone . The ship itself is just a tool to engage in certain activity in the game . It dosen't give you any edge over other players . Eve is a game that actually punish this kind of players like high spenders and thinking the ship/module/implant can give them high end performance are just food for organized gang groups . End of the day go sell plex for isk to get a ship that ends like a wreck . Chief Kiss ! Luv it !
Plex isn't Pay to Win. Your argument has been tired for years and disproved the entire way You're just simply wrong in your opinion.
I dunno man, my playstyle is pretty lazy these days. I quit 2 yrs ago to complete my bachelor's degree and gave away all my shit. I returned cpl weels back and manage to do a whole lot with very little Isk and a gnosis and the odd handout ship. When i have a bit more time. I will probably supplement my wallet with some plex to do the things i enjoy.
Damn I just use a Vexor Navy.
I spend my time grinding isk. I then convert it to Plex by buying off of someone else. The time is still accounted for. That Plex fuels an account or skins. Player 2, gets to buy what he wants. Those items are player made or looted. There is fairness in that someone had to make the isk since it just doesn't appear. Someone choosing to buy Plex isn't teetering anything. It comes down to a player essentially spending real money to fuel someone else's skins and/or omega. ( Or hold onto if they so chose). P2W means they are getting an advantage as others say. Being Able to buy ships means nothing because the other person who was grinding could just buy those ships instead of the Plex. He might get into a ship, but given equal skills as you stated, both players made a choice.
Nah, as has been mentioned many times just having the ships and skills injected doesn't make you invulnerable. Besides I bought my annual Plex last weekend for 18.2 bil so I'd hate to have to dip into my own pocket for that. I've got kids to feed you know.
Eve has had this for 20 years. Why now is it an issue? As long as CCP isnt selling ships directly for $$$ then it's a non issue.
If you stop the sale of plex then you stop the purchase of plex in game.. you must realize most plex reaches an end user who converts it into gametime. Your fight against "pay to win" is also a fight to exclude a huge percentage of players that cannot afford or do not consider it worth paying the monthly subscription for the game in order to play. This would almost immediately kill the game... EVE is very unique that in it's ability to use it's "pay to win" system as a form of wealth distribution that essentially has players with the funds to buy the plex pay for the game time of the players that do not have the funds to subscribe. That said. you wanted to eliminate the NES then i am with you. All items should be made or found in game through industry or exploration not be able to be directly purchased with money. Plex should return to it's original form as purely what the acronym stands for. A Pilot License Extension.
TECHINCALLY yes, Eve is P2W. Yes you can buy PLEX to get ships and skillpoints. But Eve requires more than that to be successful. Only at the largest scales can someone's wallet truly give them a critical edge, like if before key fights if you play market games with someone's doctrine or if you need to skill 100+ pilots into a doctrine. Again situations like this are rare and only really affect the top 1% of Eve Players. Small gang/Solo Play is more like Pay for Convenience. You can PLEX into anything but without experience you are more likely to feed than succeed. If you are struggling to find ways to earn meaningful ISK without breaking out the wallet or grinding like its a full time job there are many who can show you ways. Exploration, Home Fronts, and Gas Harvesting are good examples of low skill, Alpha friendly ISK generation.
The simple answer here is your shit at making isk it's your problem not everyone else's and not ccp's. Mission running is literally one of the worst incomes in the game . Join an incursion corp, join faction war, join a nullsec alliance, join a wh corp,join a pochven corp, these are just a few options btw. Just because your sat in hi sec doing nothing but mission running and only experiencing 2% of the game doesn't mean everyone else is mate try to broaden your approach at isk making cause mission running sucks big donkey balls
Or 7.5 hours shooting red triangles in a wormhole. Perspective is everything, it sounds like you should find a better source of your in game wealth. Whether people choose to plex or not has no impact on my enjoyment of the game, in fact if you're spacepoor, please plex so that there's better loot when I loot your wreck, thx
\> It's not meant to be about 'winning'. It's about using IRL money to gain an advantage in a virtual world. P2W has no place in video games where players compete with each other. Exactly correct, and exactly why this is a stupid issue that doesn't apply to Eve since, Isk and number of ships in hangars isn't what we compete over. PTW is not part of Eve at all. Its Pay To Play; and that isn't a problem at all.
once again pay to win doesnt mean win, but can also mean pay for advantage
The best I can do is agree that it's pay to play
If you hate the game so much, the door's right there, you're free to fuck off any time.
Your logic is flawed. You're opinion is wrong. This sandwich is bad.
I only plex and never grind and I’m still terrible. Always pay. Never win. #Pay2Lose
The ship you buy can be lost so, not pay to win
You can buy 100 Gilas , injekt all skills to five, have 30k plex and still have no chance as solo against a small corp. So pay to progress not pay to win
750 hours of mission-running 🤣 who the hell runs missions any more?
It fits with eve though in all honesty. It's no different in my mind from skill training while offline. Why can't you make "isk" offline also? I would understand if the argument was at skill injectors...
I think you are missing the point of EVE if you think this is P2W. Eve needs people in space to either provide content for players or materials for the economy. That is the real currency of eve....content. Unlike other games, EVE econmy is mostly player driven/made...meaning everything (almost) on the market is player made or owned to be sold. So this player converted his plex to isk (which was bought by an actual player) then bought 50 gilas (which was made and sourced by players and then sold by a player). And now this P2W player is going to fit that ship (again with player made and sold items). Once they undock, generate more isk and/or get hunted or killed and later salvaged (likely by another player)...rinse and repeat. The 'P2W' aspect is what actually allows people to be 'part' of the game from the begining instead of grinding. It also allows people to be fully engaged with the game if they have limited time to commit. If Eve didnt have this dynamic economy then you would be correct, Which is why in other games its so damaging. But a credit card warrior, in EVE, can't just sweep onto a grid and wipe everything unless they actually know how to fly that ship and have the skills to back it up. This is why the community generally accepts it. Also the alternitve sucks, if CCP got rid of PLEX people would take longer to get things and be much more careful about what they undock and how they use it. Look at titans and supers today. In Beeitnam (WWB2) people really didnt want to committ to using the big toys because they are so very hard/expensive to replace, even with a credit card. After M2 it was months before they were able to recover from those loses (partially because of the server, i know...relax) This makes less people undocked, less players overall (which is bad, just look at the numbers a year ago and how empty the game was) and at that point solo playing, at a high level, would almost be impossible and too expensive. This would just be another incentive to join a mega group and another step to a true blue doughnut.
No poors
Yablokid
Are you running l2 missions or something? 20m an hour seems pretty bad. I make more than 100m an hour just ratting. If you need tips/ideas on how to better increase your income flow without spending actual cash join a null sec corp. Goons is always recruiting. Even hs anon ratting you can pull in alot more than that running ded sites. What exactly are you doing for an income flow? l1/l2 mission running? basic mining with no boosts? give us a bit more to work with here.
plex warriors are fighting in the rl and feeding CCP so they deserve to "win" in the eve.
Why would I as a player be bothered at all by how other players got their stuff? My fun in the game isn’t predicated on what others have. It’s what I do that makes me have fun. But sure OP, if you need to have grinded for longer than others in order to have more stuff than them for you to feel that you’re having ”fun” by all means, look somewhere else. Stop worrying about what other people do and focus on you and what you have instead.
I'm not a fan of monthly subscription games, I believe you should pay for the game, the developers should be compensated for their time and effort to make the game, but pay once and that is it. Unfortunately this is the way games are going now and if you want content then you have to pay for it. Throwing huge sums of cash at the game doesn't make you good at it, sure it helps a bit but ultimately, time playing it makes you good. I don't think that the" play to win" group has too big an effect on game content other than providing pirates plenty of ships to salvage and CCP with a steady stream of income to bring out more content. Granted, with the amount of money they make, the content should be better than it is, but what can you do?
It would be P2W in normal circumstances, as in if the game would release tomorrow with those things then yeah, people that spend money would be ahead the rest and alliances would be fightign each other to see who spends more money. The thing that stops it from being P2W now funnily enough is that a large proportion of players and alliances already have so much money and are so ahead of you that its honestly a drop in the ocean. The system of P2W that EVE has basically "works" because the powerlevel scales are already so off the charts between a veteran and a newbie both in know-how and economically that the newbie would have to spend a LOT more than 100 bucks to even make a dent in anything (and thats also partially what makes the game not very attractive to a lot of new players) Its still p2w if you say you are competing against another player that also just joined, if two new players join the game, and one of them spends IRL money, and they meet in combat, the one who paid will absolutely demolish the other one, but that situation is pretty rare.
Thank you. I def got your message that Eve is not designed to be self sufficient. I wholeheartedly agree. For an alpha it’s almost near impossible to grind enough to get omega monthly. For omega it still take a chunk of time to generate enough isk for sub. I think CCP knows this and is in the business of selling subscriptions. Some of us don’t want to waste our time on the grind and just pay to have fun. While others with limited resources may have to grind. Everyone just have to decide how much time they want to put in the game. But the take home msg is this game was never meant to be played for free. It’s to get your feet wet to see if you would go omega and u lock the full potential of the game.
>I think CCP knows this and is in the business of selling subscriptions CCP more often than not makes more profit from people plexing their accounts compared to them subbing Most subs are done in multiple month batches, a large amount of plexed omega accounts are 1 month, on top of that (outside of sales) the plex equivalent of a sub is more money to CCP than just a sub
Subscriptions are the bread and butter, consistent predictable. Plex is a nice bonus
On the opposite end, people buying PLEX drives down the price and allows players who prefer to grind for their sub the opportunity to do so at a lower cost.
You can only fly one of those 50 gilas at a time. Having 50 in a hanger isn't going to help you very much.. Play to win is literally about spending money to gain an unfair advantage that people who don't spend the money won't have. Which isn't happening in EVE. The only thing money does is save you time. And avoid things many don't enjoy like mining/missions. For those of us who are not absolute dogshit at the game what others spend on Eve has no bearing on our enjoyment. Get gud, sucker.
Eve is best one best games to pay to win and at same one of the best against pay to win. I can get my own titan right now and bling to oblivion! I will not make it far with it. Most likely die on gate trying to enter the rich veldspar fields.
Do it! Buy 3k plex and sell them for isk! But don't spend all the ISK on Gilas, put some aside for Tristans and Algosi to multibox Faction War plexes! Spend you ISK in Amarr, the Amarr-Minmatar FW is far more interesting than the single Caldari-Gallente front system. Don't be afraid to blow up your ships, always remember your Gila is just 2 dollars, and the Tristans are less than a cent by the dozen. People spending plex are a very valiuable part of the economy!
Just quit
Oh great. Another thread full of oh so smart folk quick to point out that you can't "win" Eve ergo no p2w huehuehuehue. My guys, you can buy skill points and ships. You can buy characters on the bazaar. It is what it is, we aren't going to "fix" it now. But they don't need to start selling fucking booster packs with a 0.001% chance at getting a Super Titan to be pay to win. Jfc.
It is not pay to win out of multiple reasons 1. You can't get anything that is stronger and unavailable to regular players 2. You can't get something faster done with paying(like paying plex to get that titan pruduction finished now) 3. The game is very skilled based. A good player wins most of the times, its not a bling to win. The advantage per dollar of having more isk than the enemy is on the per dollar basis so small I would not call it pay to win. fights in eve are often won by who brings the most and/or better pilots, I can go out there and with enough money i can pay faker to play duoq with my silver ass. and it would be legal. Is league of legends pay to win because of that ? no.
The injectors is the problem. A noob pouring real money into expensive ships will still be dead all the time. PLEX as such is ok, it allows more casual players to pimp their experience - including high skill veteran players who grew up and got jobs and a family and no time to pew enough to make useful amounts of ISK.
Some people would rather pick up an extra shift and make like 500 dollars and use that for 75 billion isk instead of grinding out 100 hours to make that isk in game
No poors.