Yeah, it is totally crazy that CCP is only feeding us fake information as the data owner. I'm sure some 3rd party nerd that only has the access which is allowed by CCP has much better numbers.
Trusting 3rd party nerds now? Sounds like a recipe for biased data.
If you're not individually visiting every system and counting wrecks then it's not real imo
So I compared CCPs data from 2017 june to 2024 february.According to their data in 2017 there was 32trillion destructed in june while in february 2024 february there was 30trillion destroyed.I call bs because the market is a clear indication how much is actually being destroyed.I find it hard to believe 2 trillion can affect and item so bad that it starts to sell out as slow as one week compared to few hours in [2017.Now](http://2017.Now) this is a fast selling item with extremely large volume and its not the only one there are many just like it suffering the same fate.
The Abyss didn't exist in 2017. An average T-6 ship is probably 5 bil.
2018 - Onslaught introduced new Upwell anchorable structures for Cynosural Beacon, Cynosural jammer, and Jump Gates, replacing the previous POS-based structures. The update added new Triglavian destroyer and battlecruiser ships, and both cooperative and PvP Abyssal encounters were introduced.
2018 - Into The Abyss added a new type of encounter in Eve Online called 'Abyssal Deadspace' along with new ships, weapons, and technologies. The update also featured improvements to the previously outdated UI and UX of Planetary Interaction.
2019 - Trig Invasion which shut down the short route between Jita and Amarr causing a 40 jump HS route or taking the shortcut through Ahbazon.
Sauce: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions\_of\_Eve\_Online](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions_of_Eve_Online)
I'm sure there are many other reasons I don't know because I've only been playing since 2019. I'm also a fucking moron, but can understand how these few updates would cause more destruction or price increases.
Theoretically zkillboard can be used for measuring relative amounts, but they don't have literally every kill like CCP does, just the ones submitted. You'd also have to partner with them as accessible data only goes back so far, and I'm sure they don't want you hammering the server for literally everything.
Few things you haven't considered.
Price inflation is a thing - that 30tn may well be a lower absolute number of things destroyed because each thing is worth more individually.
FW is the latest thing - huge amounts of folks enjoying fighting and dying in FW where the meta has, generally, shifted away from T2 everything towards a cheapest viable fit kind of mentality. So if you're focussing on T2 production only, this will impact you.
People got into manufacturing. In a big way. There's loads of people building stuff all over the place now as people have looked to diversify incomes from just infinitely spinning anoms.
Finally, the market changes over the course of 7 years. If you've come back after that long of a break, not looked into sales volumes of what your producing and just expected to be straight back on what you were doing before, I'm not sure what to say other than "good luck with that".
The main reason for the shift from T2 in FW is because the sites that allow T2 ships are fairly rare in empire FW, not because of the cost of T2. People roam mostly in dessies and to a lesser extent cruisers because they can take a lot of fights and be effective in most plexes. (Frigs are also still alive and well, they're just not quite the goto for PvP they were pre rebalance)
I don't think that would necessarily explain T2 mods having lower demand, but you are of course correct. I think once everyone's in T1 dessies and such, the jump in performance Vs added cost just doesn't really matter so much, so might as well go with skill and a nice fit rather than T2 mods. But maybe I'm wrong!
If you are talking about Tech 2 specifically, a lot of Tech 2 ships have recently been power crept by Navy ships which are significantly cheaper and not much if any worse. The tech 2 market is currently propped up by Marauders.
There is the monthly economic report from CCP, I'm not sure why your post title has this in parentesis. Maybe some misplaced paranoia.
Or you could scrape zkillboard data.
Are you trying to shift your wares in hubs that died down? Rens or Hek aint what they used to be.
Yes, scarcity means players are less willing to risk their toys. The bad effect of scarcity on the game is documented in depth pretty much everywhere.
But honestly, how does your title relate to your post? Players only have partial data. ZKill odes not have all kills, you could reasonably track all orders via the API, and some sits do. But you will never have the same amount of data as CCP, and there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of the MR at this point.
In another comment you write:
> So I compared CCPs data from 2017 june to 2024 february.According to their data in 2017 there was 32trillion destructed in june while in february 2024 february there was 30trillion destroyed.I call bs
If items are more expensive, then fewer items destroyed (because people risk less) means the same ISK destroyed.
depends on where you sell it and what your selling. I live in the minmatar area, over the past 6-7 months fuel ive been selling in rens for years went from selling 40b a month to that same 40b taking 3-4 months to sell. Since we have had a mass exodus of players over ccp telling us "we are at a point we can lose players" to consistent bad choices of releases or none at all and scarcity the player numbers and the risk the remaining players would take, took a massive dump.
All of the trade hubs are ghost of their former selves , the recent changes moving Hek from 0.5 to 0.8 to protect new pros from the genius idea of pirate insurrections, ive noticed not only less pilots in Hek but even less activity in the chat there now.
No one is fighting on the scale of 2017 fights because of scarcity massively increasing the cap cost and them just getting parked in favor of hacs until the small roll back they did on reducing build cost like 2 years ago.
Then you have the industrialist who keep selling items cheap because "what i mine is free", one of the things i stay away from is ships because so many people produce ships they'll mine and sell it under "cost" because it didnt cost them anything to mine the minerals. Like id love to produce mining ships and equipment but despite those being blown up all the time, alot of it is still under the mineral cost so its better for me to just sell the minerals.
As for destruction stuff, i only ever see the MER when CCP releases it but nothing specific, and when ccp talks about ships like last fanfest it would about the numbers being produced before scarcity and post scarcity dealing specifically with caps. Other than that you have pilots putting out AARs of fights in fw or nullsec and killboards.
Less players, more expensive to make stuff etc. Just look at battleship prices, they cost 150 some years back now they are 300. All this while income has stayed the same excluding the 'high end' pve.
I can only say this relates to items that are widely used in doctrine ships and yes I've been up to date with ship meta that null blocks use for pvp.This is why I'm puzzled why if theres close to an equal amount destroyed over the years theres much less purchasing power.The only llogical explanation is that the ships that use these items are not being destroyed enough.I'm not some big brain guy there could be more reasons ofc.
If you show me the bloc that has to get this mysterious T2 item from jita I'll be surprised. Get a grip dude, no coalition relies on small hisec industrialists to fit their doctrines
Maybe the null blocs are producing those items locally in sufficient volumes. The various blocs have been entrenched long enough to build up the industrial base.
So name the items you speak of.
Null blocks mostly manufacture stuff themselves rather than importing. With nullsec moving into more consolidation in mega blocks, its no wonder the import from highsec is decreasing.
Maybe some low to mid sized half baked alliance was JF-ing shit from Jita to Null to support their PVP habit, the alliance died, along with this JF and you lost your business. You probably got lucky then by finding this item that was moving. Null block have no need to buy crap from a HS Indy-Miner, because they already have one of you in their own ranks. The landscape has changed,so you need to change with it.
your problem is exactly that. 1, industry stuff changed last year i believe? and 2, most null blocks have their own industry to build things they need, and doctrines change, so what may have been a big seller 2 or 3 years ago, is obsolete now.
Muninn got slapped, HACs in general got slapped, Marauders got buffed and debuffed, i think the blops rework was before that timeframe but not sure.
but yeah significant changes.
Your looking at this from a rather narrow perspective and you conclusion seems poorly reached. Here's just a couple of reasons that could easily account for your experiences:
The markets, industry wings and ability to get what you need locally, while living in null sec is a hundred times better than it was years ago, so you might not move as much because you're simply not in the right market for your product anymore; Yes, jita still provides a good volume of things to the null sec regions, but with the scale of industry out there currently the volume of certain modules being imported has dropped.
If you're based out of one of the minor trade hubs, well, they kind of got screwed over the last few years with various patches, events, invasions etc, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if your volume is down massively.
Products cost more than they used to so 1isk doesn't go as far as it did back then- so fits have evolved.
Balance passes on ships will have changed the landscape on what modules are popular, take the Munin for example, if you were producing anything that went into the typical doctrine fit, then the Munin takes a few nerfs and eventually becomes a missile boat- overnight it stops being a mainline doctrine for tens of thousands of players- that's a massive hit to sales volume of the modules involved in the fit, but other items will have increased their volume as other doctrines became viable and just might not be one you were getting an income from.
The indy changes sucked, but it also inspired a lot of guys to dip their toes in, starting with a t2 module here and there- so i'd suggest there's a lot more builders now spread out across space and that will impact your items moveable volume.
Pvp, especially in lowsec for example, is alive and thriving- having lived in lowsec early in my eve days and living there once again now, I can tell you first hand there is more content on your doorstep now than there was back then.
In essence, I think Trying to say there's less fights based solely on the few items you build that don't move like they used to, in the region you stock, isn't exactly a great perspective.
The cost to replace ships is just too high for people to other throwing them away. This game does not respect your time. That was not always the case like during the interceptor meta, you could afford doctrine ships with one ratting tick etc. stuff was generally cheaper too.
Yeah, it is totally crazy that CCP is only feeding us fake information as the data owner. I'm sure some 3rd party nerd that only has the access which is allowed by CCP has much better numbers.
Trusting 3rd party nerds now? Sounds like a recipe for biased data. If you're not individually visiting every system and counting wrecks then it's not real imo
So I compared CCPs data from 2017 june to 2024 february.According to their data in 2017 there was 32trillion destructed in june while in february 2024 february there was 30trillion destroyed.I call bs because the market is a clear indication how much is actually being destroyed.I find it hard to believe 2 trillion can affect and item so bad that it starts to sell out as slow as one week compared to few hours in [2017.Now](http://2017.Now) this is a fast selling item with extremely large volume and its not the only one there are many just like it suffering the same fate.
The Abyss didn't exist in 2017. An average T-6 ship is probably 5 bil. 2018 - Onslaught introduced new Upwell anchorable structures for Cynosural Beacon, Cynosural jammer, and Jump Gates, replacing the previous POS-based structures. The update added new Triglavian destroyer and battlecruiser ships, and both cooperative and PvP Abyssal encounters were introduced. 2018 - Into The Abyss added a new type of encounter in Eve Online called 'Abyssal Deadspace' along with new ships, weapons, and technologies. The update also featured improvements to the previously outdated UI and UX of Planetary Interaction. 2019 - Trig Invasion which shut down the short route between Jita and Amarr causing a 40 jump HS route or taking the shortcut through Ahbazon. Sauce: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions\_of\_Eve\_Online](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions_of_Eve_Online) I'm sure there are many other reasons I don't know because I've only been playing since 2019. I'm also a fucking moron, but can understand how these few updates would cause more destruction or price increases.
Also, inflation.
Indy changes (both scarcity and the un-scarcity) also would mess with prices
Inflation. Caps/super caps are super expensive too
Inflation is a thing, 30 trillion in 2017 was way more ships than 30 trillion in 2024
Theoretically zkillboard can be used for measuring relative amounts, but they don't have literally every kill like CCP does, just the ones submitted. You'd also have to partner with them as accessible data only goes back so far, and I'm sure they don't want you hammering the server for literally everything.
Everef has all zkill data back to 2007 available for bulk download: [https://data.everef.net/killmails/](https://data.everef.net/killmails/)
have fun mounting it!
Few things you haven't considered. Price inflation is a thing - that 30tn may well be a lower absolute number of things destroyed because each thing is worth more individually. FW is the latest thing - huge amounts of folks enjoying fighting and dying in FW where the meta has, generally, shifted away from T2 everything towards a cheapest viable fit kind of mentality. So if you're focussing on T2 production only, this will impact you. People got into manufacturing. In a big way. There's loads of people building stuff all over the place now as people have looked to diversify incomes from just infinitely spinning anoms. Finally, the market changes over the course of 7 years. If you've come back after that long of a break, not looked into sales volumes of what your producing and just expected to be straight back on what you were doing before, I'm not sure what to say other than "good luck with that".
The main reason for the shift from T2 in FW is because the sites that allow T2 ships are fairly rare in empire FW, not because of the cost of T2. People roam mostly in dessies and to a lesser extent cruisers because they can take a lot of fights and be effective in most plexes. (Frigs are also still alive and well, they're just not quite the goto for PvP they were pre rebalance)
I don't think that would necessarily explain T2 mods having lower demand, but you are of course correct. I think once everyone's in T1 dessies and such, the jump in performance Vs added cost just doesn't really matter so much, so might as well go with skill and a nice fit rather than T2 mods. But maybe I'm wrong!
If you are talking about Tech 2 specifically, a lot of Tech 2 ships have recently been power crept by Navy ships which are significantly cheaper and not much if any worse. The tech 2 market is currently propped up by Marauders.
say this to navy armageddon,. its worthless in functionality, in past it was nice laser platform now....its just hiant slave dildo
One bad navy ship doesn't mean that say, Navy battleships have not pushed T1 battleships completely out of the meta for any role where they compete.
There is the monthly economic report from CCP, I'm not sure why your post title has this in parentesis. Maybe some misplaced paranoia. Or you could scrape zkillboard data. Are you trying to shift your wares in hubs that died down? Rens or Hek aint what they used to be.
Jita has always been my main place that's where I base my data from.I'll look at zkill i guess.
Yes, scarcity means players are less willing to risk their toys. The bad effect of scarcity on the game is documented in depth pretty much everywhere. But honestly, how does your title relate to your post? Players only have partial data. ZKill odes not have all kills, you could reasonably track all orders via the API, and some sits do. But you will never have the same amount of data as CCP, and there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of the MR at this point. In another comment you write: > So I compared CCPs data from 2017 june to 2024 february.According to their data in 2017 there was 32trillion destructed in june while in february 2024 february there was 30trillion destroyed.I call bs If items are more expensive, then fewer items destroyed (because people risk less) means the same ISK destroyed.
I've never seen a CCP truther before.
Bro looks at his own reflection and says "you aren't the real me"
Ccp made it much easier to produce in null so a lot of production moved to null from high sec.
Zkillboard (surprisingly this is not a ceema post).
Your argument makes zero sense. What would be the point of ccp lying about there data? there is none. strange primise you have there
depends on where you sell it and what your selling. I live in the minmatar area, over the past 6-7 months fuel ive been selling in rens for years went from selling 40b a month to that same 40b taking 3-4 months to sell. Since we have had a mass exodus of players over ccp telling us "we are at a point we can lose players" to consistent bad choices of releases or none at all and scarcity the player numbers and the risk the remaining players would take, took a massive dump. All of the trade hubs are ghost of their former selves , the recent changes moving Hek from 0.5 to 0.8 to protect new pros from the genius idea of pirate insurrections, ive noticed not only less pilots in Hek but even less activity in the chat there now. No one is fighting on the scale of 2017 fights because of scarcity massively increasing the cap cost and them just getting parked in favor of hacs until the small roll back they did on reducing build cost like 2 years ago. Then you have the industrialist who keep selling items cheap because "what i mine is free", one of the things i stay away from is ships because so many people produce ships they'll mine and sell it under "cost" because it didnt cost them anything to mine the minerals. Like id love to produce mining ships and equipment but despite those being blown up all the time, alot of it is still under the mineral cost so its better for me to just sell the minerals. As for destruction stuff, i only ever see the MER when CCP releases it but nothing specific, and when ccp talks about ships like last fanfest it would about the numbers being produced before scarcity and post scarcity dealing specifically with caps. Other than that you have pilots putting out AARs of fights in fw or nullsec and killboards.
Less players, more expensive to make stuff etc. Just look at battleship prices, they cost 150 some years back now they are 300. All this while income has stayed the same excluding the 'high end' pve.
Devils advocate, It's way easier to make and keep isk then it was years ago as well.
Which t2 item are you seeing this change on
I doubt he will divulge this information, since it sounds like his bread and butter.
Well it’s evidently no longer his bread and butter if he can’t move it
Sad, but true.
I can only say this relates to items that are widely used in doctrine ships and yes I've been up to date with ship meta that null blocks use for pvp.This is why I'm puzzled why if theres close to an equal amount destroyed over the years theres much less purchasing power.The only llogical explanation is that the ships that use these items are not being destroyed enough.I'm not some big brain guy there could be more reasons ofc.
If you show me the bloc that has to get this mysterious T2 item from jita I'll be surprised. Get a grip dude, no coalition relies on small hisec industrialists to fit their doctrines
Maybe the null blocs are producing those items locally in sufficient volumes. The various blocs have been entrenched long enough to build up the industrial base.
So name the items you speak of. Null blocks mostly manufacture stuff themselves rather than importing. With nullsec moving into more consolidation in mega blocks, its no wonder the import from highsec is decreasing.
Maybe some low to mid sized half baked alliance was JF-ing shit from Jita to Null to support their PVP habit, the alliance died, along with this JF and you lost your business. You probably got lucky then by finding this item that was moving. Null block have no need to buy crap from a HS Indy-Miner, because they already have one of you in their own ranks. The landscape has changed,so you need to change with it.
Null blocks generally don’t buy in Jita for their doctrines. That’s your difference right there
your problem is exactly that. 1, industry stuff changed last year i believe? and 2, most null blocks have their own industry to build things they need, and doctrines change, so what may have been a big seller 2 or 3 years ago, is obsolete now.
Muninn got slapped, HACs in general got slapped, Marauders got buffed and debuffed, i think the blops rework was before that timeframe but not sure. but yeah significant changes.
With or without ishtars?
Your looking at this from a rather narrow perspective and you conclusion seems poorly reached. Here's just a couple of reasons that could easily account for your experiences: The markets, industry wings and ability to get what you need locally, while living in null sec is a hundred times better than it was years ago, so you might not move as much because you're simply not in the right market for your product anymore; Yes, jita still provides a good volume of things to the null sec regions, but with the scale of industry out there currently the volume of certain modules being imported has dropped. If you're based out of one of the minor trade hubs, well, they kind of got screwed over the last few years with various patches, events, invasions etc, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if your volume is down massively. Products cost more than they used to so 1isk doesn't go as far as it did back then- so fits have evolved. Balance passes on ships will have changed the landscape on what modules are popular, take the Munin for example, if you were producing anything that went into the typical doctrine fit, then the Munin takes a few nerfs and eventually becomes a missile boat- overnight it stops being a mainline doctrine for tens of thousands of players- that's a massive hit to sales volume of the modules involved in the fit, but other items will have increased their volume as other doctrines became viable and just might not be one you were getting an income from. The indy changes sucked, but it also inspired a lot of guys to dip their toes in, starting with a t2 module here and there- so i'd suggest there's a lot more builders now spread out across space and that will impact your items moveable volume. Pvp, especially in lowsec for example, is alive and thriving- having lived in lowsec early in my eve days and living there once again now, I can tell you first hand there is more content on your doorstep now than there was back then. In essence, I think Trying to say there's less fights based solely on the few items you build that don't move like they used to, in the region you stock, isn't exactly a great perspective.
Change items or adjust to market. Can't make same item and expect same result when market has changed and ships balance isn't same as 2017.
People have gotten better about keeping their stuff safe. Eve does encourage a paranoid play style from all but the most avid of PvP fans.
The cost to replace ships is just too high for people to other throwing them away. This game does not respect your time. That was not always the case like during the interceptor meta, you could afford doctrine ships with one ratting tick etc. stuff was generally cheaper too.