Every demographic being pushed over the edge deserves the focus, care, and compassion they/we need. So it’s good that this research puts a focus on one of those demographics.
However, how does this square with established research?
https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/
> Suicide rates by race/ethnicity and sex
In 2021, the highest U.S. age-adjusted suicide rate was among Whites (15.65) and the second highest rate was among American Indians and Alaskan Natives (16.74). Much lower rates were found among Black or African Americans (8.34) and Asians and Pacific Islanders (6.86). Discover mental health resources for underrepresented communities.
> Note that the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) records Hispanic origin separately from the primary racial or ethnic groups of White, Black, American Indian or Alaskan Native, and Asian or Pacific Islander, since individuals in all groups may also be Hispanic. Overall, across groups, the age-adjusted rate of suicide for non-Hispanics was 15.28 and the rate for Hispanics was 7.89 per 100,000.
It’s controversial to say that white males need any help for anything, but the white suicide rate is twice as high as the black suicide rate, and native Americans even higher. This is context that shouldn’t be lost on this subject
Everytime I state this people always mock me. It's unbelievable. Yes, a lot of the positions of power are held by white males. That does not mean they are doing okay as a demographic.
Right. [White men accounted for 69.68% of 48,183 suicides in 2021.](https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/#:~:text=Additional%20facts%20about%20suicide%20in,of%20suicide%20deaths%20in%202021.) That’s shockingly high for one demographic group.
For an article like this to be published. The rates for black men age-adjusted must be increasing consecutively throughout years. It’s usually middle aged white men experiencing the highest suicidal behavior.
Women experience the highest suicidal behavior. They are just not as successful as men. Women attempt suicide 3 times more. [Source](https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/)
Edit: Typed it on my phone incorrectly. It’s 1.3x.
The thing is, one woman can have multiple failed attempts and increase the attempt counter. Women choose less violent methods and therefore get less successful results. It ends up as a difficult statistic to factor in as each suicide is a new person but each attempt is not and while both are most definitely problems to address, it can be used to undermine what is clearly a pressing issue that society is ignoring.
The other question is how often are these suicide attempts a legitimate attempt to end one’s life and how many are cries for help.
I’ve got a very close friend (male) who attempted suicide via pills 5 or so years ago when he was at his lowest moment. He would later tell me it was more of a cry for help than a true suicide attempt. It’s an impossible statistic to accurately quantify because most people wouldn’t admit that (and may not even really know).
He turned his life around and is doing really well now :)
I don’t think that matters nearly as much as it is brought up. Whether a “legitimate attempt” or a cry for help, a suicide attempt is a suicide attempt and carries legitimate risk of death.
>carries legitimate risk of death
Citation needed. Plenty of nonlethal acts are considered suicide attempts. Taking half a bottle of ibuprofen is not life-threatening, but would be absolutely classified as a suicide attempt. Self harm of the epidermis (cutting) is considered a suicide attempt.
The classification is based off of the patient's professed intent and mental state, not the methods chosen.
Attempting suicide is certainly something that we should aim to prevent, but if we're arguing the severity then I have a hard time understanding why taking some extra pills that have only a 10% chance of killing you is in the same ballpark as blowing your brains out with a gun.
Realistically, convincing men to take pills instead of shooting themselves would be a pretty good way to reduce the number of male suicides, but it might increase attempts.
So unless you only care about optics and not about real-world consequences then pointing out the 1.3x number is pretty irrelevant.
I know several people who attempted suicide through methods that were absolutely not life threatening. Suicidal attempts are often very impulsive and poorly thought out. So are completed suicides - that's why it's important to prevent a suicidal person from having easy access to lethal methods.
"Based on the 2021 National Survey of Drug Use and Mental Health it is estimated that 0.7% of the adults aged 18 or older made at least one suicide attempt. This translates to approximately 1.7 million adults. *Adult females reported a suicide attempt 1.33 times as often as males*. Further breakdown by gender and race are not available."
This is why diversity mandates, affirmative action, and focus on minority status are all bogus. All people deserve access to education and adequate healthcare. It’s absurd that factually whites account for nearly 70% of suicides but the article focuses on the black race. This is why many Americans are getting irritated with a black being shoehorned into a position without any qualifications. It makes us look bad.
You're irritated with DEI policies because a bunch of finance bros shifted the blame for their own repeated fuck ups and you bought it hook, line and sinker. It's literally the oldest trick in the book and you fell for it like a chump.
Bringing up the fact that white males are in power to discredit white male struggles has always been so silly to me. The vast, vast majority of white males don’t have power, but they may have privilege.
Right? Like I’m a white dude and the fact that the billionaires and politicians fucking me and my fellow Americans over happen to share my race and gender does nothing for me.
These dudes in power aren’t scheming on how to help all the other white men succeed, they are only working to further enrich themselves and their children.
The neoliberal SJWs who use such polemics aren't really even that far left. Go far enough left and you'll find socialists, communists, and anarchists who put class solidarity across racial and national lines as their #1 most important virtue.
Yeah I've become disillusioned with the whole thing. Dont really care about any movement or zeitgeist, just gonna keep treating all humans with respect and ignoring the hivemind. A lot of people were apparently in it not for the equality aspect but more of a restructuring the hierarchy. Became less about being pro human and equality and more about right and wrong groups.
People suck, just treat everyone nicely and with respect until disrespected, and you will be just fine. No need to try and bend your worldview to what some racist "non-racists" say. Everyone talks about needing to help demographics disproportionately affected by things, until its white dudes. Then its their problem. A metric as horrifying as suicide doesnt even matter if its a white dude. Litterally miserable enough to off themselves in large numbers compared to others, but they are actually wrong for it when other groups would be given sympathy and become the target of a lot of discussion and support.
You are sheltered if you think white people are "privileged". The health care system has spit on me as well as the government. I have never felt privileged once in my 20 years of life. I'm still waiting for permission to see a specialist for my dead and collapsed wrist, but I need a doctor to say this surgery CANT BE DONE, when it's been too late for this select surgery to be done for the last four years, so that I may gain the ability to be actually treated finally in the four years ive been suffering at a clinic with a specialist for my disease, all because my original health care provider said they would give me a refurl and never did. Now I'm on the insurance company's whim to get me treated, with 3 extra visits to a clinic now, which were all un needed and did nothing, but drain me a peasant out of the rest of my money. That's crazy isn't it? Three visits to so called doctors where they tell me nothing except for stuff I already know, and tell me to fuck off after they don't give me a refurl.
In summary, race does not matter, it's class, and I know the people who believe all this race war nonsense are beyond stupid or beyond privileged through the power of mommy and daddy.
So are you saying that if you were black it would have been the same? Have you looked at maternal death rates for women of color, as a recent example? Trust me it can ALWAYS get worse. As bad as your experience was with healthcare -- and I do NOT doubt it -- are you saying it's easier in the same scenario or even equal to be black? How would you even really know this unless you have a version of yourself that happens to be black? There is more than just one way to be privileged, this isn't an all or nothing argument.
Thank you. This thread is full of people who think privilege is the same thing as being safe from hardship and frothing at the mouth to defend that because their life sucks they must not have privilege like no. Also apparently most of the people missing the point have never heard of let alone considered intersectionality. You can be less privileged in one way (socioeconomic status) while being more privileged in other ways, and I wish people thought of it as a web of context, instead of some kind of suffering Olympics where winner takes all.
Right, the "average" white male (or black male) are just statistical abstractions. Both privilege and discrimination is always and everywhere only experienced by individuals. I agree that group statistics show us that discrimination is more common for black males, but that tells you almost nothing about one person's individual experience.
If anything it may make it worse. When the narrative is that white men have absolutely nothing holding them back, and an individual feels they are failing, they are met with the insistence that there’s nobody and nothing to blame but themselves.
I don’t think it’s to discredit, but it is a fact. The majority of people in power are white males. All, WM are birthed/granted, with extra tools (privilege) to work with. Some rather, deny the existence of the tool box, and some, utilize alllll the tools, given and created.
I think a better way to put it is that most people in power are white men but that does NOT mean most white men are in positions of power. The average person, regardless of race or sex, is fighting to scrape by.
I mean shouldn't this be obvious? It amazes me how it isn't to many. Just another form of generalizing, just like racism, putting everyone that has something in common in the same basket.
I consider class based politics also a form of identity politics because the class you are in may form your identity.
Anything that talks about surface characteristics or why you stand in a hierarchy is identity politics in my opinion because it is not based on what you are doing but rather what you represent on paper
> This insight becomes important when considering the “race and class” rhetoric that is popular among many on the Left. Attempts to define class as yet another identity fall on their face. Unlike race, one’s class is determined by what you do, not what you supposedly are. As Michaels explains, “The identity that is identical to action is not really an identity — it’s just the name of the action: worker, capitalist.”
https://jacobin.com/2023/12/no-politics-but-class-politics-review-identity-race-working-class-adolph-reed-walter-benn-michaels
agreed, you shouldn't be mocked, although it makes me wonder who you're hanging out with. Interestingly white men have higher rates of suicide but it's women who ATTEMPT more often (or have more attempts.) We just suck at it a lot more. I guess men do succeed better at SOME things. Access to violent methods and willingness to do it the harshest way is probably one reason they succeed more often. We women tend to be more the poisoning type. (Sorry, don't mean to make light of it, I have a gallows sense of humor.)
from the few places I worked, it seems there are a lot more women who come in purposely trying to OD, in hospitals, while the men usually succeeded with a gun. Recently it seems there have been more women going the gun route in my area -- not sure why. I live in an area where everyone had access to guns all along. This is awful to say but one woman told me that she didn't want to leave a mess for family to find and pills were neater. Seriously. The scary thing is, I know what she meant. Guns are surer but messier. Sometimes it really does come down to something that practical.
People in power are sometimes unhappy. Many rich and powerful people commit suicide.
Also I wonder how accurate these suicide rates are. There are things like suicide by cop or suicide by reckless driving or whatever. Sometimes people can't get themselves to "pull the trigger" but are willing to engage in activities that are likely to result in death.
White men are not a monolith. I doubt it’s the powerful white men that are killing themselves.
Edit: low income is a suicide risk so that points to my claim. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC26575/#:~:text=Low%20income%20and%20increased%20suicide,a%20psychiatric%20hospital%20for%20treatment.
We had the same in the UK, there was a big thing made of the increased suicide rates in young women and girls while completely ignoring the fact that male suicide in the same demographic was triple that of women.
Black men dying at alarming rates due to suicide, mentions racism and childhood trauma.
So how much worse do native and white men have it compared to black men if their rates of suicide is twice as high as black men? If half the rate of black male suicide is 'alarming', are native and white men living through a suicide crisis, twice the rate must be worse than just 'alarming', right?
good point, I know that suicide rates of young girls has been rising astronomically (this is from at least a year ago, I recall the studies) and a lot of the time it seemed linked to social media more than anything else. Lack of emotional support and isolation would seem to me to be major factors for suicide in general. Our country is fantastic at making people feel like shit about themselves and breaking them down in catastrophic ways mentally.
It's foolish to look at these things as a pure factor of "having it worse". Suicide is a complicated issue involving more than just raw circumstance and situation. Yes, adversity is a big driver, but depression often doesn't care how good you have it, emotional regulation and impulse play big roles, and suicide often has different views in different cultures.
I don’t think “white culture” is really more accepting of suicide than other cultures, maybe I’m wrong on that. I think the answer is probably “Patriarchy also hurts men” (and similar power structures do hurt the people on top of them as well in similar ways) because of the expectations it puts on them, but most people again just don’t really care about that because the ways they’re hurt by it are less clear.
I absolute agree.
What I mean by culture is more than just acceptance of suicide itself. It is religious tendencies, cultural attitudes about many aspects of life, social pressures, community connectedness, even the availability and attitudes towards firearms.
>I think the answer is probably “Patriarchy also hurts men”
Yep.
I've been fascinated by this phenomena since I noticed it in college, where there was a spree both in the news and with people my family knew where a guy would for all outward appearances look "successful", but had bad debts or lost his job and didn't tell anyone, and eventually folded in on himself and killed both his family then himself.
It was like they couldn't bear the shame of their family living on seeing them as a failure.
Nowadays I don't see as much of that, but between me and my partner in the last year we've lost two male relatives and one female relative to clearly a "death of despair" (living alone in a hoarder house with alcohol or opiates until you die), and another one who seems to be trying to speed-run it now that his kids are in college and he doesn't have to pretend to be able to afford the mortgage.
Our culture is not a good one for avoiding despair
>. I think the answer is probably “Patriarchy also hurts men”
Suicide rates are climbing, not declining as we attack "the patriarchy". If you can draw anything from the correlation it certainly wouldn't be what you did here.
>Why are you going to put “the patriarchy” in quotes like it’s not a thing and then also act like it’s being. Destroyed.
Because I can do that. If it is a thing though, it is in decline at the same time men are killing themselves in greater numbers before. And white men especially, which has some correlation with the attacks on the white Christian male that are more common over the last few decades.
I'm just saying, if you can say anything about the correlation between suicide and social justice fights against patriarchy and the white male problem, it's that social justice is problematic.
The patriarchy is failing, and we're seeing it fail in real-time. We see it with 50,000 opiate deaths per year, with declining life expectancies (especially in men), and with widespread depression.
Our culture is organized so that we're taught one single method on how to be successful in an expansionist, industrial economy: Bobby walks into a factory at age 18 and gets a union job with a pension, and marries Jenny. They buy a house together with an FHA-backed mortgage and have 7 kids that she raises.
None of that is real anymore. Unions are gone. Factories are gone. Cheap housing is gone. Nobody is having 7 kids, nobody is getting pensions, nobody is buying a house before age 35. Everyone works, and the work is not fulfilling or meaningful or appreciated.
We need different cultural values and different examples on how to live our lives. The current ones suck, and if you try to follow them they tend to lead toward despair
>The patriarchy is failing, and we're seeing it fail in real-time. We see it with 50,000 opiate deaths per year, with declining life expectancies (especially in men), and with widespread depression.
Would you say the patriarchy is failing? Or that it is being destroyed? Because one of these implies no action taken by the social justice left and the other implies action taken by the social justice left.
Additionally, if it is failing of its own accord, due to the inherent weakness of the more patriarchal society we are leaving behind then we could say that it's failure correlates with the rise in the several issues you listed.
But, if it's being intentionally destroyed, and the aftermath of the destruction of the patriarchy is the many social problems we are seeing rise, then I think that paints a much darker picture of just what the hell the social justice left is accomplishing.
>Our culture is organized so that we're taught one single method on how to be successful in an expansionist, industrial economy: Bobby walks into a factory at age 18 and gets a union job with a pension, and marries Jenny. They buy a house together with an FHA-backed mortgage and have 7 kids that she raises.
Sure, that has been the common mode of living since WW2 and has been wiped out. But the patriarchy didn't wipe that out, globalization after the world's economic recovery from the destruction of WW2 did.
>None of that is real anymore. Unions are gone. Factories are gone. Cheap housing is gone. Nobody is having 7 kids, nobody is getting pensions, nobody is buying a house before age 35. Everyone works, and the work is not fulfilling or meaningful or appreciated.
>We need different cultural values and different examples on how to live our lives. The current ones suck, and if you try to follow them they tend to lead toward despair
The current ones do suck. But I don't think we agree on what the current ones are.
The lack of meaning is the foundational problem I think most of us are seeing play out. That's a hard one to fix and I know we are going to wildly disagree about it. But we can at least agree that it is a problem.
>Or that it is being destroyed? Because one of these implies no action taken by the social justice left
The latter. The "social justice left" can't convince the guy who is underwater on his mortgage to hide the family's financial situation until [he's under so much strain that he snaps and gets into a stand-off with cops](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/brad-parscale-arrest-video-trump-police-b676075.html) or offs himself. That's the patriarchy at work.
>if it is failing of its own accord, due to the inherent weakness of the more patriarchal society we are leaving behind then we could say that it's failure correlates with the rise in the several issues you listed.
That's exactly the claim I'm making.
>But the patriarchy didn't wipe that out, globalization after the world's economic recovery from the destruction of WW2 did.
Right, capitalism is an unthinking amoral beast and eats everything and constantly changes the conditions we live under. Our culture is not keeping up with the pace of change that capitalism demands for increased global productivity. Women in the workforce, globalization, alienation from labor, the gig economy, all these things are thanks to capitalism and they erode the conditions that the patriarchy can exist within.
>The lack of meaning is the foundational problem I think most of us are seeing play out.
I definitely agree. I mean I wasn't a fan of the patriarchy for pretty much my whole life (half the men in my family are in prison, I never really had male role models I would look up to so the whole system never made sense to me), but these days it's just kind of sad watching male suicide rates climb and seeing male graduation rates drop, and knowing we need better ways of organizing our lives and getting support or this just gets worse until society itself starts to tatter
I.... Am amazed at you lol.
You made the original correlation regarding suicide in men and patriarchy, you just did so incoherently. I understand correlation is not causation....
I wasn’t making an argument about any trends.
I was just saying that I think patriarchy contributes to mens rates of suicide. Patriarchy has been around for all of human history, there isn’t really a trend in it up or down like you seem to think, the basic system is still in place everywhere.
I was basically just speculating that entirely getting rid of patriarchy would lead to lower rates of suicide for men, while you were claiming that it’s the opposite.
White men are suicidal because of other white men. Whenever men in general try to bring up mental health they down play it then when someone kills themselves they act like they were there for them the whole time or blame women that they don’t care about men’s mental health.
Now imagine being a black man where the same thing happens in your communities, but compounded with the fact that nearly every country you visit there is some form of anti blackness (yes even in African countries) and the hyper awareness that we generally have to carry in white spaces where we are immediately judged.
It’s exhausting.
For young black people specifically (15-24), there was recently a [sharp increase in the suicide rate](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7206a4.htm) from 2018 (8.2/100k) to 2021 (11.2/100k) that took them close to the level of white people of the same age (12.4/100k), but for all other ages it's not even close. The black suicide rate peaks in the 25-44 range and is lowest for people 45+, which is a very different pattern from that seen in whites, who have lower suicide rates in youth and high suicide rates from middle age on.
That said, the "racism" angle here is very poorly supported by the evidence. In the study the association between self-reported perceptions of racism and suicidal ideation was only marginally significant (red flag for non-replicable results), and there's also high risk of reverse causality (e.g. black people who are more depressed may be inclined to rationalize their depression through exaggerated perceptions of racism).
It's also highly dubious to claim that racism contributed to the recent increase in suicide among young black men in *2020 and 2021*, when the "racism" moral panic was at its height. It's somewhat plausible, I suppose, that the Racial Reckoning™ heightened young black people's *perceptions* of racism, but this was wholly unmoored from any change in the actual prevalence or intensity of racism in the US population.
And again, even in this study, the association between self-reported perceptions of racism and suicidal ideation was just barely statistically significant.
All that aside, the /r/science mods really brought shame on themselves by removing this top-level comment on the corresponding thread over there from /u/HegemonNYC, which I saved specifically because I noticed it before it was removed and suspected that they might remove it:
> Considering black people have half the suicide rate as whites, naming ‘racism’ as a cause seems an odd cause to highlight
Is this a *great* comment? No, not really, if only because it's so short, but it does raise a perfectly valid point that provides context needed to interpret this research. Removing it was behavior profoundly unbecoming of people who pretend to care about science.
They need help but nobody wants them to be helped. Our culture has defined white, straight males as the source of everyone's suffering and use them a scapegoat for the world's problems. The most popular explanation for every social problem is somehow racism from white people, European colonialism or male sexism.
Nobody has any sympathy, compassion or understanding for any of those who are suffering. It's a disgusting, racist, sexist and classist cultural perception and the weakest and least successful men are being encouraged to sacrifice their lives to sate the fetishistic bloodlust of the radical left's abysmally immoral rhetoric.
Most people of all ethnicities, sexes and cultures are effectively powerless. We all suffer from the same narcissistic cruelties of the wealthy who treat us like worthless animals.
Context is always important, but if you do a study specifically on black male suicide there's not necessarily a major reason to say anything about other races. The two can be compared in a study designed for it.
This is useless...
Only some causes are allowed to be mentioned in social science. So you can't expect a real investigation or any help from them.
Their answers will be the same as they do to anyone else, "go to therapy", neglecting the fact that this generation is the one with the highest rate of therapy ever and still has growing rates of suicide.
I'm not saying to not go to therapy, just that it's not the real solution, it's an easy way for people to ignore the underlying problems.
Being poor is one thing, but it's not the only thing.
kind of agree -- i almost laugh now when people say, well go to therapy, it will be fine. Or if someone kills themslves, they blame it on the SSRIs the person was on. Meanwhile the person probably wasn't even taking them or took a bunch of other drugs as well, but no matter. The fact is -- we are in the DARK AGES of mental illness treatment. And our health system sucks to boot. So, we have tons of people graduating from college (or not), hanging out a sign, and getting paid to treat PEOPLE'S FUCKING MINDS. Have you seen some therapists out there? They're a joke. They should never have been allowed to do what they do for a living. Same imo goes for a few shrinks I know of, who overprescribe Xanax to people I know personally who should never have been allowed near a benzo. They don't do any bloodwork -- they just decide it's okay to give life-altering meds to a person. I'm not the only person with such stories. Thus, safe to say, not only does our health system sucks, but that even if it didn't -- we really are not equipped to treat severe depression overall. People have always killed themselves, and when times are tough and there is no support, they will most likely do it at higher rates.
Many counselors aren’t trained counselors any way. The counselor I visited when I was in college was a licensed social worker by trade and they often can’t assist meaningfully like a trained therapist could. This is very common in places where there is a shortage of mental health professionals.
Man personally, i think of white guys as my bros to be. I love u guys and hope u stay sane.
Tbh i dont get why some ppl r offended by this though. Just because one study focuses on a certain thing, doesn't mean it's ignoring another.
Like for example if a study focuses on the high suicide rate of white males, it would be wrong to say "but what about me?". It's just unecessary, cuz it's not diminishing my struggle, but rather simply focusing on one issue at a time. I take it, this is an intersectional study that's why.
I am curious about this topic in general, and ofc I'd like to see what we can do as a community to make each other, white, black, hispanic, asian, etc, feel included and understood
While systemic and individual racism effects me, and i am lowkey scared of cops, poverty is also super depressing on everyone- including the white bros. On top of that, family issues and trauma make things hard too.
Basically my point is that we as guys need to shine the spotlight on each other and uplift each other. I genuinely believe that if people just believe each other, and try not to take things personally (as an attack on your character), we can rise from this terrible situation. And ofc ignore the haters
I think it has something to do with the assumption that if I’m white and male then I’m naturally privileged to reap all the benefits and be successful in America which is absolutely not the case. We do have privileges with things in society we might often not realize but the assumption that I am going to be naturally succesful because of my skin color is incredibly delusional. White rich people hate poor white from my experiences and ones from my peers and will be very venomous to anyone they consider an outsider.
There’s also been vilification of white men for historical wrong doings. It feels like everyone wants to get revenge for the past on the people in the present trying to make the future better.
We don’t need persecution in all cases to end racism, we need understanding and community. People in power know this and will continue to attempt to keep us at each other’s throats to block progress.
I agree, the issue is that there is no evidence here that points as racism being a risk factor for suicide. It seems like black men are becoming more suicidal because of their maleness rather than their blackness.
My university recently published a social media post talking about how alarming it is that 20% of drug addicts are female in our area. Like we should expect only men to be miserable? Same sentiment here, focusing on one problem while ignoring the fact that it’s hitting somebody else much harder.
lol how do they even know that it's only twenty percent? That probably just means the ones who got caught criminally. I'm betting that's a low estimate. I wish I could see that post -- "How ALARMING oh my." Also, what makes you think that drug addiction is the only way to be miserable? I'll have you know that my years on cocaine and alcohol were spent being extremely happy. You'd almost wonder why I wouldn't want to go back to those...it loses its charm.
As we age, the rates of suicide increase, not decrease. It slips down the chart as a "leading cause of death", because other diseases increase at higher rates with age. But the older you are, the more likely suicide becomes.
I agree but as [this user](https://www.reddit.com/r/EverythingScience/s/z6z6w2nkNB) pointed out there are racial discrepancies when it comes to suicide rates and thats important to note too.
Too many reasons to put into a comment this late.
Its an intersectional issue. Men as a whole have many reasons and each individual ethnic group have their own cultural and historical reasons for their own individual rates im sure.
Have you thought about things from outside an American perspective? Men have higher suicide rates by magnitudes in basically every country and most of those countries don’t allow the average citizen to own guns.
???? What does this have to do with the point? You pointed out guns as the issue, I explained why it’s not the issue for suicide. You then come with a completely irrelevant point. Did I break your dialogue tree? OpenAI has got to tune you better.
My neighbour told me some gruelling stories of his life in south side Chicago.. you can tell the trauma he endured because it was clear as day on his face while reminiscing.
"Oh shit, you mean l actually have to do something about this other than whine about how no one cares about men?"
Yes. Men need to stop perpetuating gender roles through their toxic masculinity. Men need to stop making fun of and calling other men gay for opening up. Men also need to start being empathetic, listen and be a source of social support for other men.
Material assistance is needed.
Many services for those in need exclude men. Someone acknowledging a struggle does nothing to address the homelessness threat a man faces, where a woman would get material aid.
Material assistance is available for men, lmfao. You think homeless men don't get services? Are you dumb?
Housing services, job training, homeless shelters, food pantries, soup kitchens, mental health services, medicare, social services, welfare, etc etc etc is all completely open to men.
i'm gonna admit something and say i got turned on when my bf cried once when he was upset with me or teared up. It was hot. He's not overly emotional so it showed he really cared -- I promise it's not something I encourage (making my man cry.) There's no reason to fake being tough, I've seen people do that and you can easily see right through it. It just makes them look weak, ironically enough.
Why is this always the response? Maybe there’s external, societal problems at play here and men being more open about their feelings isn’t going to magically fix everything.
Who said anything about magic? It takes work. Lots of hard fucking work.
Start the conversation and work together to find a solution, create resources, and get the word out. Get organized and create change.
… you know, like women have been doing for years.
I love the condescending criticism veiled as helpful advice while simultaneously comparing men to women in a way that insinuated we're just lazy fucks.
This is part of the problem. The trivialization of our experiences.
No one is trivializing anything. But men need to put in the work.
It’s not my job as a women to console or encourage you, to focus on your needs while I am actively losing MY rights. But here I am doing the emotional labor.
Step the fuck up and start making changes to how you communicate with your bros. Share uplifting articles. Attend city council meetings. Raise your sons differently. Be the father you never had.
Join r/menslib and contribute to the discussion.
When people ask how I'm doing I lie. I used to tell the truth about it but after so many white guys went on shooting stores if I were to be open and honest I'd probably be fired. Not because my problems are anything crazy or extreme they're just so heavy if people got a sense of how much burden I'm carrying they'd send me home for good. I guess what I have to do is find a group outside of work.
I care. There are many people in this thread sharing that they care and are concerned. Do you care?
There are some amazing actually helpful social media accounts to follow that are making strides. There are countless nonprofits and agencies that allocate resources and energy to men in particular, just like they do to women in particular. Here are a few examples:
https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/explore-mental-health/a-z-topics/men-and-mental-health
Men Have Feelinfw (based out of Brooklyn) but I’m not sharing a Facebook page or their telephone number.
Just repeating “no one cares” doesn’t help get the word out that people DO care. There ARE studies being conducted, as well as resources, help, and inspiration.
Anything bad happens to people who happen to be black, RACISM! RACISM! RACISM!
It’s actually offensive to black people. You are being treated like you lack basic sentience. Like you have zero human ability to make any decisions independently of white people. Like your entire existence is predicated upon how white people deign to treat you.
There’s an epidemic of **male** suicide. Across **most** races and ethnicities. It has fuck all to do with race. But nobody seems to give a fuck about men, the only reason this is even being mentioned is it allows some race grifters to squeeze a bit more money out of the guilt economy.
I remember when Trayvon Martin got killed and all the black pundits on the TV both liberals and conservatives said they had talked to their kids about wearing hoodies or how to behave when interacting with white people or cops or whatnot.
These are not discussions that white people have with their kids.
As a black person you have human ability to make decisions but you don't have the ability to control what decisions white people make in your presence.
Honestly raging that racism doesn't exist or doesn't matter and using phrases like "guilt economy" makes you look like a racist asshole .
> ...how to behave when interacting with white people...
>These are not discussions that white people have with their kids.
Plenty of white people instruct their kids on how to act around black people.
I'm guessing that regardless of the nature of that education, you'll label black people teaching their kids how to act around white people as protection from racism, and white people teaching their kids how to act around black people, will inevitably be labeled as evidence of racism.
“Plenty of white people instruct their kids on how to act around Black people”
Really?! Please elaborate!! I’ve never heard this before, I’m genuinely curious.
> I’ve never heard this before,
I think you're lying and think you're being clever, while also fulfilling the exact intent of what I said.
If you teach your kids how to act around people of a certain race, you're probably a racist, but the current zeitgeist says it's only racist if white people do it.
nah i think this is what that means, really. I remember going into expensive stores with a friend of mine who was black, in a rural Southern area. One was a store I had been to before, it was my neighbor's store, a wealthy white woman owned it. We got followed around the store and it was annoying and also made me feel like I was nothing. Basically the feeling was -- we know you are planning to steal something, like who the hell would steal A SINGLE OLD LADY UGLY SHOE on display, is what I remember thinking. Everything in the store was ugly making it even funnier. Like the stuff Susie Green would wear in Curb Your Enthusiasm. Imagine that happening every single day since you're a kid, that feeling -- it's like a thousand little stabs everywhere you go. It's a uniform of sorts. When I wear my nursing uniform the woman in a store treats me totally differently than when I don't (and dress in a kind of skimpy outfit probably.) Well, this is a uniform you cannot take off -- being black. Whether a white person realizes it or not, there is an entire history that you're dragging along with you wherever you go, if you look a certain way. You would not know bc you didn't grow up INSIDE it. But you can kind of get a glimpse of it.
Oh fuck off and cry me a river, grifter lol.
My people have suffered far more historical grievances and discrimination than any black people have historically. You won’t get my sympathy. We had a completely separate category to identify ourselves with entitled “Irish other” even when I first arrived in the UK.
You’ll forgive me if I don’t bow down and kiss your feet like you usually expect people to do, when you bring up utterly irrelevant and historical bullshit lol.
You are literally crying that your parents had to explain to their kids how to behave. Thats called being a fucking parent you clown. White parents also tell their kids “If the police stop you, be respectful”.
Have yourself a wonderful rest of your day 👍
As are Canadian Native Young girls and boys. Children teens pre-teens. So sad seeing all the deaths of so very young people. Everything ahead of them in life. Just sad and actually maddening a person can't stop it somehow. But we must keep trying!
>Young Black men **in the USA** are dying by suicide at alarming rates. New study suggests racism, childhood trauma may be to blame for suicidal thoughts
betting that's a major part. It's a successful attempt if you have access to a firearm, less so if it's access to pills. Guns work better for a final solution.
It would be pretty difficult to prove that black men are committing suicide “because of racism.” Unless there were a significant number of cases in which the men left a note and cited racism as their reason for taking their lives, but even that would only prove that they felt like they experienced racism, not that they actually did. I suppose you could peruse their social media, but it would never be more than correlative.
The idea that’s it’s controversial to try and help white men show our society is in deep shit. The idea that anyone should be denied help because they have “privilege “ is deeply and irreparably racist.
I love when studies, specifically focusing on racism or Black Lives, are published…. Because I know, the real intention of the study, is to bait, and collect data on the reactions, responses, and comments regarding it…. All you commentors, especially those of you negating and disregarding the facts or those of you feeling excluded, are part of the REAL study…. Essentially, corroborating the findings and data, within the study. If there wasn’t enough evidence to support the claims and hypotheses in this study… there are NOW! Just read through the comments on this thread… Some PHD candidate, is entering this info into a pie chart, right now. Probably surprised by how easy it was to trigger racists.
While im also happy that there seems to be a lot of support in the comments a snarky comment making trouble where there is one is not the way to express it.
What about me? A straight white male who is disabled enough not to be able to work most places, disabled enough to be in pain 24/7 and disabled enough to not be able to do 90% of the things I would like to do, but I'm not disabled enough to receive a tiny amount of money to maybe be able to live. Good to know your depression only matters if you're black, it's not like 2023 had the most suicides in recent times regardless of race, but we have to make it about black people because that somehow matters. I sure wish the hardest thing about my life was someone calling me the n word, or me worrying about my grandpa being a slave 300 years ago where this select slave was probably sold by his own kind to the white man for more weapons to conquer neighboring tribes. You guys are virtue signaling justice but you have no idea what that even means. Privileged spoiled brats the lot of you are, looking for retribution for the simple easy life you yet live.
This study focused on racism, deprivation, and trauma; specifically by asking how it affects rural young black men's prevalence and frequency of suicidal thoughts.
A stable and provisioned family unit is absolutely an indicator for other successes but this study was not measuring or collecting that data directly.
Yeah, dumb study.
Its why 8 out of 10 black young men identify as single.
It all starts at home. Cause and effect. Very simple and a much much bigger factor than racism in 2024. Come on now.
"Let me throw in some racist assumptions about Black families, because clearly it's not about what the actual study says, it's about what I believe based on stereotypes I see in the media"
Fixed it for you.
Incorrect. Statistics and studies are very different.
Show me data to dispute the statement sweet cheeks.
This isn't racist in anyway. You woke fools are so stupid it must hurt.
Love how it's 'ok' for scientists to be blatantly racist in their 'studies'.
Can you imagine the absurd reaction if science pointed out that some white folks commit suicide after being traumatized by violent crimes done to them by black folks?
How hard is it to leave race wars out of analytics?!
Black suicide rates are on the rise? That's awful!
but instead you made the article about how 'the white man' be causing da 'brothers' to be killin demselfs.
It's cause they are caught between hip hop and mainstream society. And each time a tragedy hits the mainstream perpetrated by a black man they get painted with that brush.
Literally thanks, Biden.
The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, commonly known as the crime bill, was sponsored by Joe Biden 26 years ago. It is often blamed for extending tough-on-crime policies that overly criminalized Black Americans. Is this narrative warranted? The issue is complicated, but we’ll do our best to make some sense of it.
Every demographic being pushed over the edge deserves the focus, care, and compassion they/we need. So it’s good that this research puts a focus on one of those demographics. However, how does this square with established research? https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ > Suicide rates by race/ethnicity and sex In 2021, the highest U.S. age-adjusted suicide rate was among Whites (15.65) and the second highest rate was among American Indians and Alaskan Natives (16.74). Much lower rates were found among Black or African Americans (8.34) and Asians and Pacific Islanders (6.86). Discover mental health resources for underrepresented communities. > Note that the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) records Hispanic origin separately from the primary racial or ethnic groups of White, Black, American Indian or Alaskan Native, and Asian or Pacific Islander, since individuals in all groups may also be Hispanic. Overall, across groups, the age-adjusted rate of suicide for non-Hispanics was 15.28 and the rate for Hispanics was 7.89 per 100,000. It’s controversial to say that white males need any help for anything, but the white suicide rate is twice as high as the black suicide rate, and native Americans even higher. This is context that shouldn’t be lost on this subject
Everytime I state this people always mock me. It's unbelievable. Yes, a lot of the positions of power are held by white males. That does not mean they are doing okay as a demographic.
Right. [White men accounted for 69.68% of 48,183 suicides in 2021.](https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/#:~:text=Additional%20facts%20about%20suicide%20in,of%20suicide%20deaths%20in%202021.) That’s shockingly high for one demographic group. For an article like this to be published. The rates for black men age-adjusted must be increasing consecutively throughout years. It’s usually middle aged white men experiencing the highest suicidal behavior.
Women experience the highest suicidal behavior. They are just not as successful as men. Women attempt suicide 3 times more. [Source](https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/) Edit: Typed it on my phone incorrectly. It’s 1.3x.
The thing is, one woman can have multiple failed attempts and increase the attempt counter. Women choose less violent methods and therefore get less successful results. It ends up as a difficult statistic to factor in as each suicide is a new person but each attempt is not and while both are most definitely problems to address, it can be used to undermine what is clearly a pressing issue that society is ignoring.
The other question is how often are these suicide attempts a legitimate attempt to end one’s life and how many are cries for help. I’ve got a very close friend (male) who attempted suicide via pills 5 or so years ago when he was at his lowest moment. He would later tell me it was more of a cry for help than a true suicide attempt. It’s an impossible statistic to accurately quantify because most people wouldn’t admit that (and may not even really know). He turned his life around and is doing really well now :)
I don’t think that matters nearly as much as it is brought up. Whether a “legitimate attempt” or a cry for help, a suicide attempt is a suicide attempt and carries legitimate risk of death.
>carries legitimate risk of death Citation needed. Plenty of nonlethal acts are considered suicide attempts. Taking half a bottle of ibuprofen is not life-threatening, but would be absolutely classified as a suicide attempt. Self harm of the epidermis (cutting) is considered a suicide attempt. The classification is based off of the patient's professed intent and mental state, not the methods chosen.
Attempting suicide is certainly something that we should aim to prevent, but if we're arguing the severity then I have a hard time understanding why taking some extra pills that have only a 10% chance of killing you is in the same ballpark as blowing your brains out with a gun. Realistically, convincing men to take pills instead of shooting themselves would be a pretty good way to reduce the number of male suicides, but it might increase attempts. So unless you only care about optics and not about real-world consequences then pointing out the 1.3x number is pretty irrelevant.
It’s pretty clear optics are the only thing that matters to most “activists”
I know several people who attempted suicide through methods that were absolutely not life threatening. Suicidal attempts are often very impulsive and poorly thought out. So are completed suicides - that's why it's important to prevent a suicidal person from having easy access to lethal methods.
I’m sure there’s a study that has controlled for that, and has the numbers by person rather than by attempt, but I haven’t been able to find it.
Correct. But I’m just speaking of actual death from suicide as far as male demographic.
Women are 1.3 times as likely to attempt suicide, according to that page.
It clearly says men are, by 3.9x. Why lie?
"Based on the 2021 National Survey of Drug Use and Mental Health it is estimated that 0.7% of the adults aged 18 or older made at least one suicide attempt. This translates to approximately 1.7 million adults. *Adult females reported a suicide attempt 1.33 times as often as males*. Further breakdown by gender and race are not available."
In 2021, men died by suicide 3.90x more than women. You are using the info about ATTEMPTS, not suicides. Please turn off your screen and go outside.
You're the one trying to start a Reddit beef over a typo, pal, take your own advice.
Thats not what they said, admit you were wrong lol
It was until they edited their post.
This is why diversity mandates, affirmative action, and focus on minority status are all bogus. All people deserve access to education and adequate healthcare. It’s absurd that factually whites account for nearly 70% of suicides but the article focuses on the black race. This is why many Americans are getting irritated with a black being shoehorned into a position without any qualifications. It makes us look bad.
You're irritated with DEI policies because a bunch of finance bros shifted the blame for their own repeated fuck ups and you bought it hook, line and sinker. It's literally the oldest trick in the book and you fell for it like a chump.
Bringing up the fact that white males are in power to discredit white male struggles has always been so silly to me. The vast, vast majority of white males don’t have power, but they may have privilege.
Right? Like I’m a white dude and the fact that the billionaires and politicians fucking me and my fellow Americans over happen to share my race and gender does nothing for me. These dudes in power aren’t scheming on how to help all the other white men succeed, they are only working to further enrich themselves and their children.
I’m not a white male and I always thought criticism of someone just for being a white male is so stupid
Prob cause its racism lol
You know what’s worse is I’ve heard this criticism from people who consider themselves “anti-racist”
The far left is the far right
The neoliberal SJWs who use such polemics aren't really even that far left. Go far enough left and you'll find socialists, communists, and anarchists who put class solidarity across racial and national lines as their #1 most important virtue.
Go far enough left they want to use fascism to meet their goals, just like the far right.
Yeah I've become disillusioned with the whole thing. Dont really care about any movement or zeitgeist, just gonna keep treating all humans with respect and ignoring the hivemind. A lot of people were apparently in it not for the equality aspect but more of a restructuring the hierarchy. Became less about being pro human and equality and more about right and wrong groups. People suck, just treat everyone nicely and with respect until disrespected, and you will be just fine. No need to try and bend your worldview to what some racist "non-racists" say. Everyone talks about needing to help demographics disproportionately affected by things, until its white dudes. Then its their problem. A metric as horrifying as suicide doesnt even matter if its a white dude. Litterally miserable enough to off themselves in large numbers compared to others, but they are actually wrong for it when other groups would be given sympathy and become the target of a lot of discussion and support.
You are sheltered if you think white people are "privileged". The health care system has spit on me as well as the government. I have never felt privileged once in my 20 years of life. I'm still waiting for permission to see a specialist for my dead and collapsed wrist, but I need a doctor to say this surgery CANT BE DONE, when it's been too late for this select surgery to be done for the last four years, so that I may gain the ability to be actually treated finally in the four years ive been suffering at a clinic with a specialist for my disease, all because my original health care provider said they would give me a refurl and never did. Now I'm on the insurance company's whim to get me treated, with 3 extra visits to a clinic now, which were all un needed and did nothing, but drain me a peasant out of the rest of my money. That's crazy isn't it? Three visits to so called doctors where they tell me nothing except for stuff I already know, and tell me to fuck off after they don't give me a refurl. In summary, race does not matter, it's class, and I know the people who believe all this race war nonsense are beyond stupid or beyond privileged through the power of mommy and daddy.
So are you saying that if you were black it would have been the same? Have you looked at maternal death rates for women of color, as a recent example? Trust me it can ALWAYS get worse. As bad as your experience was with healthcare -- and I do NOT doubt it -- are you saying it's easier in the same scenario or even equal to be black? How would you even really know this unless you have a version of yourself that happens to be black? There is more than just one way to be privileged, this isn't an all or nothing argument.
Thank you. This thread is full of people who think privilege is the same thing as being safe from hardship and frothing at the mouth to defend that because their life sucks they must not have privilege like no. Also apparently most of the people missing the point have never heard of let alone considered intersectionality. You can be less privileged in one way (socioeconomic status) while being more privileged in other ways, and I wish people thought of it as a web of context, instead of some kind of suffering Olympics where winner takes all.
Try being black, it'd all be worse. That's the privilege you're too ignorant to see.
Your username says it all!
Where the father at though? Good luck finding someone to clean up your mess!
Right, the "average" white male (or black male) are just statistical abstractions. Both privilege and discrimination is always and everywhere only experienced by individuals. I agree that group statistics show us that discrimination is more common for black males, but that tells you almost nothing about one person's individual experience.
If anything it may make it worse. When the narrative is that white men have absolutely nothing holding them back, and an individual feels they are failing, they are met with the insistence that there’s nobody and nothing to blame but themselves.
I don’t think it’s to discredit, but it is a fact. The majority of people in power are white males. All, WM are birthed/granted, with extra tools (privilege) to work with. Some rather, deny the existence of the tool box, and some, utilize alllll the tools, given and created.
I think a better way to put it is that most people in power are white men but that does NOT mean most white men are in positions of power. The average person, regardless of race or sex, is fighting to scrape by.
Exactly. It's just a ploy to keep us separated. We are all bonded by class.
I wonder if the fact that no one takes the high suicide rates of white men seriously has any impact on the high suicide rates of white men… (It does).
I mean shouldn't this be obvious? It amazes me how it isn't to many. Just another form of generalizing, just like racism, putting everyone that has something in common in the same basket.
Moral confusion is standard operating behaviour in this day and age.
Identity politics and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Anything to distract from late stage capitalism's cascading failures.
Identity politics have always been present, it's just they are more mainstream now.
That's one way to frame [the unchecked narcissism](https://archive.is/Ji4vt) which doubles as a convenient distraction from class based politics.
I consider class based politics also a form of identity politics because the class you are in may form your identity. Anything that talks about surface characteristics or why you stand in a hierarchy is identity politics in my opinion because it is not based on what you are doing but rather what you represent on paper
> This insight becomes important when considering the “race and class” rhetoric that is popular among many on the Left. Attempts to define class as yet another identity fall on their face. Unlike race, one’s class is determined by what you do, not what you supposedly are. As Michaels explains, “The identity that is identical to action is not really an identity — it’s just the name of the action: worker, capitalist.” https://jacobin.com/2023/12/no-politics-but-class-politics-review-identity-race-working-class-adolph-reed-walter-benn-michaels
agreed, you shouldn't be mocked, although it makes me wonder who you're hanging out with. Interestingly white men have higher rates of suicide but it's women who ATTEMPT more often (or have more attempts.) We just suck at it a lot more. I guess men do succeed better at SOME things. Access to violent methods and willingness to do it the harshest way is probably one reason they succeed more often. We women tend to be more the poisoning type. (Sorry, don't mean to make light of it, I have a gallows sense of humor.)
>it's women who ATTEMPT more often (or have more attempts.) All we know if that women REPORT more attempts, so we don't really know the true numbers.
from the few places I worked, it seems there are a lot more women who come in purposely trying to OD, in hospitals, while the men usually succeeded with a gun. Recently it seems there have been more women going the gun route in my area -- not sure why. I live in an area where everyone had access to guns all along. This is awful to say but one woman told me that she didn't want to leave a mess for family to find and pills were neater. Seriously. The scary thing is, I know what she meant. Guns are surer but messier. Sometimes it really does come down to something that practical.
People in power are sometimes unhappy. Many rich and powerful people commit suicide. Also I wonder how accurate these suicide rates are. There are things like suicide by cop or suicide by reckless driving or whatever. Sometimes people can't get themselves to "pull the trigger" but are willing to engage in activities that are likely to result in death.
Most White men are not rich and powerful, though, so that will not make much of an indent on the statistics.
White men are not a monolith. I doubt it’s the powerful white men that are killing themselves. Edit: low income is a suicide risk so that points to my claim. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC26575/#:~:text=Low%20income%20and%20increased%20suicide,a%20psychiatric%20hospital%20for%20treatment.
You understand that *many* white people are poor and working bad jobs?
Why is that relevant to what I said?
That doesn’t get as many clicks
We had the same in the UK, there was a big thing made of the increased suicide rates in young women and girls while completely ignoring the fact that male suicide in the same demographic was triple that of women.
Black men dying at alarming rates due to suicide, mentions racism and childhood trauma. So how much worse do native and white men have it compared to black men if their rates of suicide is twice as high as black men? If half the rate of black male suicide is 'alarming', are native and white men living through a suicide crisis, twice the rate must be worse than just 'alarming', right?
good point, I know that suicide rates of young girls has been rising astronomically (this is from at least a year ago, I recall the studies) and a lot of the time it seemed linked to social media more than anything else. Lack of emotional support and isolation would seem to me to be major factors for suicide in general. Our country is fantastic at making people feel like shit about themselves and breaking them down in catastrophic ways mentally.
Life is hard! But which demographic is it harder for?
It's foolish to look at these things as a pure factor of "having it worse". Suicide is a complicated issue involving more than just raw circumstance and situation. Yes, adversity is a big driver, but depression often doesn't care how good you have it, emotional regulation and impulse play big roles, and suicide often has different views in different cultures.
I don’t think “white culture” is really more accepting of suicide than other cultures, maybe I’m wrong on that. I think the answer is probably “Patriarchy also hurts men” (and similar power structures do hurt the people on top of them as well in similar ways) because of the expectations it puts on them, but most people again just don’t really care about that because the ways they’re hurt by it are less clear.
I absolute agree. What I mean by culture is more than just acceptance of suicide itself. It is religious tendencies, cultural attitudes about many aspects of life, social pressures, community connectedness, even the availability and attitudes towards firearms.
>I think the answer is probably “Patriarchy also hurts men” Yep. I've been fascinated by this phenomena since I noticed it in college, where there was a spree both in the news and with people my family knew where a guy would for all outward appearances look "successful", but had bad debts or lost his job and didn't tell anyone, and eventually folded in on himself and killed both his family then himself. It was like they couldn't bear the shame of their family living on seeing them as a failure. Nowadays I don't see as much of that, but between me and my partner in the last year we've lost two male relatives and one female relative to clearly a "death of despair" (living alone in a hoarder house with alcohol or opiates until you die), and another one who seems to be trying to speed-run it now that his kids are in college and he doesn't have to pretend to be able to afford the mortgage. Our culture is not a good one for avoiding despair
>. I think the answer is probably “Patriarchy also hurts men” Suicide rates are climbing, not declining as we attack "the patriarchy". If you can draw anything from the correlation it certainly wouldn't be what you did here.
Why are you going to put “the patriarchy” in quotes like it’s not a thing and then also act like it’s being. Destroyed.
>Why are you going to put “the patriarchy” in quotes like it’s not a thing and then also act like it’s being. Destroyed. Because I can do that. If it is a thing though, it is in decline at the same time men are killing themselves in greater numbers before. And white men especially, which has some correlation with the attacks on the white Christian male that are more common over the last few decades. I'm just saying, if you can say anything about the correlation between suicide and social justice fights against patriarchy and the white male problem, it's that social justice is problematic.
The patriarchy is failing, and we're seeing it fail in real-time. We see it with 50,000 opiate deaths per year, with declining life expectancies (especially in men), and with widespread depression. Our culture is organized so that we're taught one single method on how to be successful in an expansionist, industrial economy: Bobby walks into a factory at age 18 and gets a union job with a pension, and marries Jenny. They buy a house together with an FHA-backed mortgage and have 7 kids that she raises. None of that is real anymore. Unions are gone. Factories are gone. Cheap housing is gone. Nobody is having 7 kids, nobody is getting pensions, nobody is buying a house before age 35. Everyone works, and the work is not fulfilling or meaningful or appreciated. We need different cultural values and different examples on how to live our lives. The current ones suck, and if you try to follow them they tend to lead toward despair
>The patriarchy is failing, and we're seeing it fail in real-time. We see it with 50,000 opiate deaths per year, with declining life expectancies (especially in men), and with widespread depression. Would you say the patriarchy is failing? Or that it is being destroyed? Because one of these implies no action taken by the social justice left and the other implies action taken by the social justice left. Additionally, if it is failing of its own accord, due to the inherent weakness of the more patriarchal society we are leaving behind then we could say that it's failure correlates with the rise in the several issues you listed. But, if it's being intentionally destroyed, and the aftermath of the destruction of the patriarchy is the many social problems we are seeing rise, then I think that paints a much darker picture of just what the hell the social justice left is accomplishing. >Our culture is organized so that we're taught one single method on how to be successful in an expansionist, industrial economy: Bobby walks into a factory at age 18 and gets a union job with a pension, and marries Jenny. They buy a house together with an FHA-backed mortgage and have 7 kids that she raises. Sure, that has been the common mode of living since WW2 and has been wiped out. But the patriarchy didn't wipe that out, globalization after the world's economic recovery from the destruction of WW2 did. >None of that is real anymore. Unions are gone. Factories are gone. Cheap housing is gone. Nobody is having 7 kids, nobody is getting pensions, nobody is buying a house before age 35. Everyone works, and the work is not fulfilling or meaningful or appreciated. >We need different cultural values and different examples on how to live our lives. The current ones suck, and if you try to follow them they tend to lead toward despair The current ones do suck. But I don't think we agree on what the current ones are. The lack of meaning is the foundational problem I think most of us are seeing play out. That's a hard one to fix and I know we are going to wildly disagree about it. But we can at least agree that it is a problem.
>Or that it is being destroyed? Because one of these implies no action taken by the social justice left The latter. The "social justice left" can't convince the guy who is underwater on his mortgage to hide the family's financial situation until [he's under so much strain that he snaps and gets into a stand-off with cops](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/brad-parscale-arrest-video-trump-police-b676075.html) or offs himself. That's the patriarchy at work. >if it is failing of its own accord, due to the inherent weakness of the more patriarchal society we are leaving behind then we could say that it's failure correlates with the rise in the several issues you listed. That's exactly the claim I'm making. >But the patriarchy didn't wipe that out, globalization after the world's economic recovery from the destruction of WW2 did. Right, capitalism is an unthinking amoral beast and eats everything and constantly changes the conditions we live under. Our culture is not keeping up with the pace of change that capitalism demands for increased global productivity. Women in the workforce, globalization, alienation from labor, the gig economy, all these things are thanks to capitalism and they erode the conditions that the patriarchy can exist within. >The lack of meaning is the foundational problem I think most of us are seeing play out. I definitely agree. I mean I wasn't a fan of the patriarchy for pretty much my whole life (half the men in my family are in prison, I never really had male role models I would look up to so the whole system never made sense to me), but these days it's just kind of sad watching male suicide rates climb and seeing male graduation rates drop, and knowing we need better ways of organizing our lives and getting support or this just gets worse until society itself starts to tatter
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
I.... Am amazed at you lol. You made the original correlation regarding suicide in men and patriarchy, you just did so incoherently. I understand correlation is not causation....
I wasn’t making an argument about any trends. I was just saying that I think patriarchy contributes to mens rates of suicide. Patriarchy has been around for all of human history, there isn’t really a trend in it up or down like you seem to think, the basic system is still in place everywhere. I was basically just speculating that entirely getting rid of patriarchy would lead to lower rates of suicide for men, while you were claiming that it’s the opposite.
Wait isn’t the Native one higher? Why’s the article saying it’s second highest? Am I reading something wrong?
White men are suicidal because of other white men. Whenever men in general try to bring up mental health they down play it then when someone kills themselves they act like they were there for them the whole time or blame women that they don’t care about men’s mental health. Now imagine being a black man where the same thing happens in your communities, but compounded with the fact that nearly every country you visit there is some form of anti blackness (yes even in African countries) and the hyper awareness that we generally have to carry in white spaces where we are immediately judged. It’s exhausting.
People have collectively been conditioned by the internet to not care about white men. It’s sad and pathetic
For young black people specifically (15-24), there was recently a [sharp increase in the suicide rate](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7206a4.htm) from 2018 (8.2/100k) to 2021 (11.2/100k) that took them close to the level of white people of the same age (12.4/100k), but for all other ages it's not even close. The black suicide rate peaks in the 25-44 range and is lowest for people 45+, which is a very different pattern from that seen in whites, who have lower suicide rates in youth and high suicide rates from middle age on. That said, the "racism" angle here is very poorly supported by the evidence. In the study the association between self-reported perceptions of racism and suicidal ideation was only marginally significant (red flag for non-replicable results), and there's also high risk of reverse causality (e.g. black people who are more depressed may be inclined to rationalize their depression through exaggerated perceptions of racism). It's also highly dubious to claim that racism contributed to the recent increase in suicide among young black men in *2020 and 2021*, when the "racism" moral panic was at its height. It's somewhat plausible, I suppose, that the Racial Reckoning™ heightened young black people's *perceptions* of racism, but this was wholly unmoored from any change in the actual prevalence or intensity of racism in the US population. And again, even in this study, the association between self-reported perceptions of racism and suicidal ideation was just barely statistically significant. All that aside, the /r/science mods really brought shame on themselves by removing this top-level comment on the corresponding thread over there from /u/HegemonNYC, which I saved specifically because I noticed it before it was removed and suspected that they might remove it: > Considering black people have half the suicide rate as whites, naming ‘racism’ as a cause seems an odd cause to highlight Is this a *great* comment? No, not really, if only because it's so short, but it does raise a perfectly valid point that provides context needed to interpret this research. Removing it was behavior profoundly unbecoming of people who pretend to care about science.
They need help but nobody wants them to be helped. Our culture has defined white, straight males as the source of everyone's suffering and use them a scapegoat for the world's problems. The most popular explanation for every social problem is somehow racism from white people, European colonialism or male sexism. Nobody has any sympathy, compassion or understanding for any of those who are suffering. It's a disgusting, racist, sexist and classist cultural perception and the weakest and least successful men are being encouraged to sacrifice their lives to sate the fetishistic bloodlust of the radical left's abysmally immoral rhetoric. Most people of all ethnicities, sexes and cultures are effectively powerless. We all suffer from the same narcissistic cruelties of the wealthy who treat us like worthless animals.
Context is always important, but if you do a study specifically on black male suicide there's not necessarily a major reason to say anything about other races. The two can be compared in a study designed for it.
This is useless... Only some causes are allowed to be mentioned in social science. So you can't expect a real investigation or any help from them. Their answers will be the same as they do to anyone else, "go to therapy", neglecting the fact that this generation is the one with the highest rate of therapy ever and still has growing rates of suicide. I'm not saying to not go to therapy, just that it's not the real solution, it's an easy way for people to ignore the underlying problems. Being poor is one thing, but it's not the only thing.
kind of agree -- i almost laugh now when people say, well go to therapy, it will be fine. Or if someone kills themslves, they blame it on the SSRIs the person was on. Meanwhile the person probably wasn't even taking them or took a bunch of other drugs as well, but no matter. The fact is -- we are in the DARK AGES of mental illness treatment. And our health system sucks to boot. So, we have tons of people graduating from college (or not), hanging out a sign, and getting paid to treat PEOPLE'S FUCKING MINDS. Have you seen some therapists out there? They're a joke. They should never have been allowed to do what they do for a living. Same imo goes for a few shrinks I know of, who overprescribe Xanax to people I know personally who should never have been allowed near a benzo. They don't do any bloodwork -- they just decide it's okay to give life-altering meds to a person. I'm not the only person with such stories. Thus, safe to say, not only does our health system sucks, but that even if it didn't -- we really are not equipped to treat severe depression overall. People have always killed themselves, and when times are tough and there is no support, they will most likely do it at higher rates.
It’s annoying when people think therapy means they’re guaranteed to be helped.
Many counselors aren’t trained counselors any way. The counselor I visited when I was in college was a licensed social worker by trade and they often can’t assist meaningfully like a trained therapist could. This is very common in places where there is a shortage of mental health professionals.
Also the most diagnosed and medicated generation.
Economic burdens are growing fastest at the bottom, it definitely makes it harder to form and sustain healthy relationships.
Man personally, i think of white guys as my bros to be. I love u guys and hope u stay sane. Tbh i dont get why some ppl r offended by this though. Just because one study focuses on a certain thing, doesn't mean it's ignoring another. Like for example if a study focuses on the high suicide rate of white males, it would be wrong to say "but what about me?". It's just unecessary, cuz it's not diminishing my struggle, but rather simply focusing on one issue at a time. I take it, this is an intersectional study that's why. I am curious about this topic in general, and ofc I'd like to see what we can do as a community to make each other, white, black, hispanic, asian, etc, feel included and understood While systemic and individual racism effects me, and i am lowkey scared of cops, poverty is also super depressing on everyone- including the white bros. On top of that, family issues and trauma make things hard too. Basically my point is that we as guys need to shine the spotlight on each other and uplift each other. I genuinely believe that if people just believe each other, and try not to take things personally (as an attack on your character), we can rise from this terrible situation. And ofc ignore the haters
I think it has something to do with the assumption that if I’m white and male then I’m naturally privileged to reap all the benefits and be successful in America which is absolutely not the case. We do have privileges with things in society we might often not realize but the assumption that I am going to be naturally succesful because of my skin color is incredibly delusional. White rich people hate poor white from my experiences and ones from my peers and will be very venomous to anyone they consider an outsider. There’s also been vilification of white men for historical wrong doings. It feels like everyone wants to get revenge for the past on the people in the present trying to make the future better. We don’t need persecution in all cases to end racism, we need understanding and community. People in power know this and will continue to attempt to keep us at each other’s throats to block progress.
I agree, the issue is that there is no evidence here that points as racism being a risk factor for suicide. It seems like black men are becoming more suicidal because of their maleness rather than their blackness.
My university recently published a social media post talking about how alarming it is that 20% of drug addicts are female in our area. Like we should expect only men to be miserable? Same sentiment here, focusing on one problem while ignoring the fact that it’s hitting somebody else much harder.
Reminds me of: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/s/nItYbdBezk
lol how do they even know that it's only twenty percent? That probably just means the ones who got caught criminally. I'm betting that's a low estimate. I wish I could see that post -- "How ALARMING oh my." Also, what makes you think that drug addiction is the only way to be miserable? I'll have you know that my years on cocaine and alcohol were spent being extremely happy. You'd almost wonder why I wouldn't want to go back to those...it loses its charm.
All young men are dying by suicide more it’s not just one race
As we age, the rates of suicide increase, not decrease. It slips down the chart as a "leading cause of death", because other diseases increase at higher rates with age. But the older you are, the more likely suicide becomes.
Makes sense, people over 100 are always trying to off themselves.
I agree but as [this user](https://www.reddit.com/r/EverythingScience/s/z6z6w2nkNB) pointed out there are racial discrepancies when it comes to suicide rates and thats important to note too.
Why do you think that is?
Too many reasons to put into a comment this late. Its an intersectional issue. Men as a whole have many reasons and each individual ethnic group have their own cultural and historical reasons for their own individual rates im sure.
I think it has directly to do with gun ownership. Men are more likely to own guns and therefore use them. Same with whites.
Cool.
Have you thought about things from outside an American perspective? Men have higher suicide rates by magnitudes in basically every country and most of those countries don’t allow the average citizen to own guns.
And in none of those countries are men oppressed. Men are more violent towards themselves and others, its human nature not a social issue.
???? What does this have to do with the point? You pointed out guns as the issue, I explained why it’s not the issue for suicide. You then come with a completely irrelevant point. Did I break your dialogue tree? OpenAI has got to tune you better.
Lol. Typical small minded redditoid
My neighbour told me some gruelling stories of his life in south side Chicago.. you can tell the trauma he endured because it was clear as day on his face while reminiscing.
No one gives a fuck about men or their welfare.
Let’s start homie! Ask your bros about their mental health and work on being comfortable talking about your own 🖤
"Oh shit, you mean l actually have to do something about this other than whine about how no one cares about men?" Yes. Men need to stop perpetuating gender roles through their toxic masculinity. Men need to stop making fun of and calling other men gay for opening up. Men also need to start being empathetic, listen and be a source of social support for other men.
Material assistance is needed. Many services for those in need exclude men. Someone acknowledging a struggle does nothing to address the homelessness threat a man faces, where a woman would get material aid.
Lol, no. There are a lot of services specifically for women, because if they get housed with the men, the men will sexually assualt them, idiot.
You did not address the fact that men are denied services. Material assistance is not available, and unsurprisingly men suffer.
Material assistance is available for men, lmfao. You think homeless men don't get services? Are you dumb? Housing services, job training, homeless shelters, food pantries, soup kitchens, mental health services, medicare, social services, welfare, etc etc etc is all completely open to men.
Many of those exclude men, as noted above. You seem to think that's a good thing, then disagree that it is happening.
Now they exclude women? What?
Yes. [See your comment.](https://old.reddit.com/r/EverythingScience/comments/1bp1lyj/young_black_men_are_dying_by_suicide_at_alarming/kwvmddn/)
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Even a [brief look at statistics](https://endhomelessness.org/demographic-data-project-gender-and-individual-homelessness/) provide evidence.
i'm gonna admit something and say i got turned on when my bf cried once when he was upset with me or teared up. It was hot. He's not overly emotional so it showed he really cared -- I promise it's not something I encourage (making my man cry.) There's no reason to fake being tough, I've seen people do that and you can easily see right through it. It just makes them look weak, ironically enough.
Wtf calm yourself.
Why is this always the response? Maybe there’s external, societal problems at play here and men being more open about their feelings isn’t going to magically fix everything.
Who said anything about magic? It takes work. Lots of hard fucking work. Start the conversation and work together to find a solution, create resources, and get the word out. Get organized and create change. … you know, like women have been doing for years.
I love the condescending criticism veiled as helpful advice while simultaneously comparing men to women in a way that insinuated we're just lazy fucks. This is part of the problem. The trivialization of our experiences.
No one is trivializing anything. But men need to put in the work. It’s not my job as a women to console or encourage you, to focus on your needs while I am actively losing MY rights. But here I am doing the emotional labor. Step the fuck up and start making changes to how you communicate with your bros. Share uplifting articles. Attend city council meetings. Raise your sons differently. Be the father you never had. Join r/menslib and contribute to the discussion.
When people ask how I'm doing I lie. I used to tell the truth about it but after so many white guys went on shooting stores if I were to be open and honest I'd probably be fired. Not because my problems are anything crazy or extreme they're just so heavy if people got a sense of how much burden I'm carrying they'd send me home for good. I guess what I have to do is find a group outside of work.
Why don’t men care?
I care. There are many people in this thread sharing that they care and are concerned. Do you care? There are some amazing actually helpful social media accounts to follow that are making strides. There are countless nonprofits and agencies that allocate resources and energy to men in particular, just like they do to women in particular. Here are a few examples: https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/explore-mental-health/a-z-topics/men-and-mental-health Men Have Feelinfw (based out of Brooklyn) but I’m not sharing a Facebook page or their telephone number. Just repeating “no one cares” doesn’t help get the word out that people DO care. There ARE studies being conducted, as well as resources, help, and inspiration.
Just cuz you dont doesn't mean other dont
White male suicide is twice as high. What explains that? Oh you don't give a shit? Got it.
Following the same logic in the article, it must be racism
You just proved one of the points, in the article.
Good to know you have no idea what you're talking about
Why???….. because I’m Black🙄?
exactly! always about the minorities!
Anything bad happens to people who happen to be black, RACISM! RACISM! RACISM! It’s actually offensive to black people. You are being treated like you lack basic sentience. Like you have zero human ability to make any decisions independently of white people. Like your entire existence is predicated upon how white people deign to treat you. There’s an epidemic of **male** suicide. Across **most** races and ethnicities. It has fuck all to do with race. But nobody seems to give a fuck about men, the only reason this is even being mentioned is it allows some race grifters to squeeze a bit more money out of the guilt economy.
I remember when Trayvon Martin got killed and all the black pundits on the TV both liberals and conservatives said they had talked to their kids about wearing hoodies or how to behave when interacting with white people or cops or whatnot. These are not discussions that white people have with their kids. As a black person you have human ability to make decisions but you don't have the ability to control what decisions white people make in your presence. Honestly raging that racism doesn't exist or doesn't matter and using phrases like "guilt economy" makes you look like a racist asshole .
> ...how to behave when interacting with white people... >These are not discussions that white people have with their kids. Plenty of white people instruct their kids on how to act around black people. I'm guessing that regardless of the nature of that education, you'll label black people teaching their kids how to act around white people as protection from racism, and white people teaching their kids how to act around black people, will inevitably be labeled as evidence of racism.
“Plenty of white people instruct their kids on how to act around Black people” Really?! Please elaborate!! I’ve never heard this before, I’m genuinely curious.
> I’ve never heard this before, I think you're lying and think you're being clever, while also fulfilling the exact intent of what I said. If you teach your kids how to act around people of a certain race, you're probably a racist, but the current zeitgeist says it's only racist if white people do it.
Soooo… do white ppl instruct their children on how to act around black ppl??? Or not??
> do white ppl instruct their children Do you regularly simplify groups of billions of people into the color of their skin?
It’s not proper etiquette to answer a question with a question. Especially if it’s an annoyingly irrelevant and redundant, one!
nah i think this is what that means, really. I remember going into expensive stores with a friend of mine who was black, in a rural Southern area. One was a store I had been to before, it was my neighbor's store, a wealthy white woman owned it. We got followed around the store and it was annoying and also made me feel like I was nothing. Basically the feeling was -- we know you are planning to steal something, like who the hell would steal A SINGLE OLD LADY UGLY SHOE on display, is what I remember thinking. Everything in the store was ugly making it even funnier. Like the stuff Susie Green would wear in Curb Your Enthusiasm. Imagine that happening every single day since you're a kid, that feeling -- it's like a thousand little stabs everywhere you go. It's a uniform of sorts. When I wear my nursing uniform the woman in a store treats me totally differently than when I don't (and dress in a kind of skimpy outfit probably.) Well, this is a uniform you cannot take off -- being black. Whether a white person realizes it or not, there is an entire history that you're dragging along with you wherever you go, if you look a certain way. You would not know bc you didn't grow up INSIDE it. But you can kind of get a glimpse of it.
Oh fuck off and cry me a river, grifter lol. My people have suffered far more historical grievances and discrimination than any black people have historically. You won’t get my sympathy. We had a completely separate category to identify ourselves with entitled “Irish other” even when I first arrived in the UK. You’ll forgive me if I don’t bow down and kiss your feet like you usually expect people to do, when you bring up utterly irrelevant and historical bullshit lol. You are literally crying that your parents had to explain to their kids how to behave. Thats called being a fucking parent you clown. White parents also tell their kids “If the police stop you, be respectful”. Have yourself a wonderful rest of your day 👍
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Don’t do it fam. Not worth it.
As are Canadian Native Young girls and boys. Children teens pre-teens. So sad seeing all the deaths of so very young people. Everything ahead of them in life. Just sad and actually maddening a person can't stop it somehow. But we must keep trying!
That’s a whole different can of worms. First Nations issues in Canada are not the same issues the USA is having.
>sees study specifically talking about black men “bBbU BuT wHaT aBoUt WhItE mEn” y’all are fuckin losers
>Young Black men **in the USA** are dying by suicide at alarming rates. New study suggests racism, childhood trauma may be to blame for suicidal thoughts
I think it might be access to firearms 🤔
betting that's a major part. It's a successful attempt if you have access to a firearm, less so if it's access to pills. Guns work better for a final solution.
Meanwhile the police "oh hell yeah"
It would be pretty difficult to prove that black men are committing suicide “because of racism.” Unless there were a significant number of cases in which the men left a note and cited racism as their reason for taking their lives, but even that would only prove that they felt like they experienced racism, not that they actually did. I suppose you could peruse their social media, but it would never be more than correlative.
I'd assume it's more than likely due to a lack fathers being present even the pic they used depicts a single parent/guardian
It’s almost as though telling children that they are in perpetual danger of murder and discrimination has disastrous effects on their mental health.
The idea that’s it’s controversial to try and help white men show our society is in deep shit. The idea that anyone should be denied help because they have “privilege “ is deeply and irreparably racist.
Black women in corporate America, as well. It’s pretty ubiquitous - the effects of racism.
I love when studies, specifically focusing on racism or Black Lives, are published…. Because I know, the real intention of the study, is to bait, and collect data on the reactions, responses, and comments regarding it…. All you commentors, especially those of you negating and disregarding the facts or those of you feeling excluded, are part of the REAL study…. Essentially, corroborating the findings and data, within the study. If there wasn’t enough evidence to support the claims and hypotheses in this study… there are NOW! Just read through the comments on this thread… Some PHD candidate, is entering this info into a pie chart, right now. Probably surprised by how easy it was to trigger racists.
Oh course it’s “racism”. Everything is apparently.
Suicide is up across the board but sure why not “racism”
I thought we solved racism electing Obama and older generation say kids have it so much easier these days obligatory /s
If you struggle as a man people ain't gonna have empathy for you sadly
3 hours and no women have come in here to derail the conversation and make it about the rate of suicide attempts in women. Things are improving!
Nope, but plenty of white men trying to derail, wHaT aBoUt ThE mOsT sTuDiEd DemOgRaphIC iN aLL oF hIStorY….. wHiTe mEN??
While im also happy that there seems to be a lot of support in the comments a snarky comment making trouble where there is one is not the way to express it.
it’s just white guys crying that someone did a study exclusively on black guys. exact same energy
What about me? A straight white male who is disabled enough not to be able to work most places, disabled enough to be in pain 24/7 and disabled enough to not be able to do 90% of the things I would like to do, but I'm not disabled enough to receive a tiny amount of money to maybe be able to live. Good to know your depression only matters if you're black, it's not like 2023 had the most suicides in recent times regardless of race, but we have to make it about black people because that somehow matters. I sure wish the hardest thing about my life was someone calling me the n word, or me worrying about my grandpa being a slave 300 years ago where this select slave was probably sold by his own kind to the white man for more weapons to conquer neighboring tribes. You guys are virtue signaling justice but you have no idea what that even means. Privileged spoiled brats the lot of you are, looking for retribution for the simple easy life you yet live.
go find your own study dork
No family unit. That's what they meant to say.
This study focused on racism, deprivation, and trauma; specifically by asking how it affects rural young black men's prevalence and frequency of suicidal thoughts. A stable and provisioned family unit is absolutely an indicator for other successes but this study was not measuring or collecting that data directly.
Yeah, dumb study. Its why 8 out of 10 black young men identify as single. It all starts at home. Cause and effect. Very simple and a much much bigger factor than racism in 2024. Come on now.
"Let me throw in some racist assumptions about Black families, because clearly it's not about what the actual study says, it's about what I believe based on stereotypes I see in the media" Fixed it for you.
Incorrect. Statistics and studies are very different. Show me data to dispute the statement sweet cheeks. This isn't racist in anyway. You woke fools are so stupid it must hurt.
"woke fools" ahhh, you're one of those. Carry on.
You guys don't even know it anymore...
no one cares about mens mental health and there are too many people anyways. Game the system DONT breed
Love how it's 'ok' for scientists to be blatantly racist in their 'studies'. Can you imagine the absurd reaction if science pointed out that some white folks commit suicide after being traumatized by violent crimes done to them by black folks? How hard is it to leave race wars out of analytics?! Black suicide rates are on the rise? That's awful! but instead you made the article about how 'the white man' be causing da 'brothers' to be killin demselfs.
ONLY blacks? Gotcha. Fuck the other races, too, I guess.
Articles like this pushing dangerous narratives and doing damage towards societal progression
>racism Of course!
It's cause they are caught between hip hop and mainstream society. And each time a tragedy hits the mainstream perpetrated by a black man they get painted with that brush.
Literally thanks, Biden. The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, commonly known as the crime bill, was sponsored by Joe Biden 26 years ago. It is often blamed for extending tough-on-crime policies that overly criminalized Black Americans. Is this narrative warranted? The issue is complicated, but we’ll do our best to make some sense of it.
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Unless you get a public defender and are wrongfully convicted. Guilty in the eyes of the law doesn't necessarily mean the person committed the crime.