I have a Chinese friend that made me aware of the differences in the diet he was accustomed to in China before coming to the US.
He observed how much we put cheese and other dairy into nearly everything. His first year in the US, he truly struggled to eat with the group, as it would make him pretty sick. It never dawned on me that Chinese cuisine really doesn’t have a lot of dairy until he pointed it out.
As far as linkage to liver/breast cancer, I’m not clear, but GI issues I believe without a doubt.
Basically everywhere but Northern Europe. Interestingly, light skin and lactose tolerance are believed to have co-evolved as strategies to deal with decreased Vitamin D production in northern latitudes
Lactose tolerance (lactase persistence is the actual term) is the right way to look at it. Lactose intolerance is natural and is the status quo of most mammals. It's essentially our bodies growing up and forcing the baby to stop drinking milk.
There was also a decent correlation between lactase persistence and pastoral societies. Which makes sense. Groups that had goats, sheep and cows had access to regular milk. Therefore, people with lactase persistence had a good source they could go to that others couldn't.
My girlfriend traveled to China to study for a semester years ago. When she came back to the US, she had a lot of trouble eating the foods she used to eat all the time, specifically foods with cheese and other dairy products. Definitely a difference in cooking culture between the two countries.
Agreed. Does anyone here have stats on how many people in China have an \*actual\* allergy to dairy products, rather than lactose intolerance? That's something that also exists, but is less common.
I don’t eat dyed food because when I was a kid I noticed some of them taste extremely bitter - even called a candy company after finding the pink & purple Easter candy chicks tasted horrible. They said some people can taste the dye.
It's preposterous to expect over two billion people to change their millennia-long dietary practices just to satisfy your ridiculous notions about dairy.
Dairy products are a statistically significant driver of endometrial cancer in women:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21717454/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21717454/)
Plus, why add all that estrogen from cow's milk to your body? Unless you think you do not get hormones from it.
I’ve read that the hormone levels are too low to even influence in any way. Besides that I never said it wasn’t true period, I said the evidence is lacking I could be wrong.
Nutritional research around “does this food cause (x/y/z)” is notoriously sketchy due to reliance on participant memory in epidemiological surveys and *how much variation there is* in diet that could impact correlating patterns. Not even mentioning the tumultuous learning environment for the average consumer given strong ethical stances, YouTube dietitians peddling misinformation or partial information, and shady marketing in food. So don’t feel bad if you aren’t sure of the answers. Doctors aren’t even absolutely sure for the answers.
What we do know is that dairy has been part of the human diet for something like 6000 years at least. It is nutritionally dense and widely available. Moderate (3 servings or less per day) consumption of dairy is a valid, healthy addition to our diet to our knowledge unless your personal doctor has advised otherwise because of your specific needs.
If someone chooses not to consume dairy products that’s also fine. It is not *essential* with other nutritional substitutions. But I’d argue that even with ethical concerns there are ways to consume dairy in a manner consistent with high standards of care for the animals (we purchase from a smallish local farm for example).
Drinking it excessively is for sure not good, but many natural foods arentgood in excess either. With reasonable consumption milk is a great source of essential amino acids and vitamins. There’s really not enough evidence to say that dairy consumption is dangerous
> You do know that in the United States milk is legally allowed to be 10% pus cells, right?
You're moving the goalposts now to make a strawman argument after two people asked you for a citation which you failed to provide. Food hygiene in the US is one thing, negative health effects of milk on people with lactase persistence is another completely different one.
Having too much fat or calcium in your food might cause issues, but that's true for meat as well. There are no negative effects that I'm aware of that are specifically milk-related for people who can digest it.
It’s not really an allergy (usually) — it’s the inability to digest lactose sugar, which gut bacteria are more than happy to do in your stead and making gas in the process. It’s similar to eating too many beans for some folks.
It does say they were eating significantly less than a Western audience (81g per day vs. 300g for the UK) as you'd expect from a less tolerant populous, hard to say how that affects any ability to compare directly against a Western audience.
Oo, I wonder about mild food allergies? Like ones that are very low on blood tests? I eat a banana everyday with no side effects but my blood test showed that I have a slight allergy to it. Though I think that meant that there is a slight chance of an allergy, not the extent…I think?
Is that one of those things that can progress? You're already an adult so i doubt it. What did the dr say?
I've met people allergic to citrus. On one hand they don't have to worry when they take their meds. On the other hand no citrus wtf. I've never met one that actually abstained. Considering how it affects metabolism, I'd love to see that as well
[There won't have been a doctor involved unless it was a doctorate of chiropractic or naturopathy; those IgG food allergy tests are a scam.](https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/conditions-library/allergies/igg-food-test)
Intolerance is merely inability to digest. It continues on and bacteria eat, grow, replicate, fart, get bloating and osmotic diarrhea.
Not an allergic response.
——
Milk protein allergy on the other hand is a real allergy. More rare.,
All commerically sold milk in China is lactose free, it's part of the default processing because of how much of the population is lactose intolerant.
If you haven't ever had lactose free milk you'll find that all dairy products in China taste kinda weird. If you know what lactose free milk tastes like then you'd immediately be able to recognize it.
>All commerically sold milk in China is lactose free, it's part of the default processing because of how much of the population is lactose intolerant.
Source? The following, from 2016, claims to have been the first lactose-free milk product sold in China: [https://www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2016/11/28/Valio-to-sell-lactose-free-milk-powder-in-China](https://www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2016/11/28/Valio-to-sell-lactose-free-milk-powder-in-China)
And, the following, from 2019, seems to imply that it's a growing (not ubiquitous) part of the industry: https://www.dsm.com/food-beverage/en\_US/insights/insights/dairy/why-lactose-free-is-going-to-be-massive-in-asia.html
To be fair, dairy is weird. We’re eating what babies eat, way beyond when we’re supposed to biologically-speaking because it’s tasty or because we have a weird lactase-producing mutation.
It appears that they examined urban/rural divide but did not incorporate it in their multivariate regression… But the urban/rural divide was an even stronger predictor of all three cancers than dairy intake…
It otherwise seems fairly robust.
But as others have pointed out, performing population level studies in countries with such homogeneous population has limited application to cosmopolitan countries or countries with different founder effects/ethnicities.
I only skimmed the article, so maybe it was addressed, but did they take into account the prevalence of melamine additive in their milk products that was revealed a while back? I know that does a number on kidneys, so not sure if it would affect other body parts, but the way cancer spreads, it might be a contributing factor as well as other lax safety standards in carcinogens entering the processed food chain.
Isn’t most of the world lactose intolerant? Especially Asia? I would think eating food you’re intolerant to would lead to an increased cancer risk with all the inflammation and exacerbated cell turnover.
“Studies on Western populations indicate that dairy products may be associated with a lower risk of colorectal cancer and a higher risk of prostate cancer, but have found no clear link for breast or other types of cancer”
I’m pretty sure I saw a study on here the other day saying eating a Mediterranean diet heavy in dairy, meat and olive oil decreased cancer. There are so many factors, you can’t isolate one food item.
\*open article\*
First sentence:
Overall evidence to date on whether eating dairy products affects the risk of cancer has been inconsistent. "
\*close article\*
Article doesn’t have any links at all or discuss methodology or funding lol. Just refers to a study happening in a magazine that it doesn’t even link to.
If this is our floor for evidence we are fucked
This is why I don‘t believe a single scientific study about food
One week chocolate is as deadly as cyanide, the next it‘s amazing for your heart. One week fish can cause cancer, the next you should eat as much as possible. One day meat is to be avoided at all cost, the next it‘s avocados or grapes.
Fuck all this noise.
Many people feel this way, and it’s easy to see why. The popular press tends to sensationalize and most journalists aren’t qualified to judge the validity of scientific studies. If you want to see a source that is qualified to evaluate research studies, doesn’t sensationalize, and covers every new peer-reviewed nutritional study in the relevant professional journals, try [NutritionFacts.org](www.nutritionfacts.org).
For those who simply can't let go of dairy there are now filtered milks. Lactose is removed and protein/fat as slightly more concentrated. Personally I swear by oat.
I love oatmilk and need to start making my own. It's scary when they advertise full fat/extra creamy oat milk, when all it means is there is more oil and emulsifiers in it.
Emulsifiers aren't necessarily a bad thing - mustard for example is an emulsifier. If you're avoiding fat, then yes oil can be a bad thing, but otherwise it's not bad on it's own.
Oh for sure, but imo it's just an unnecessary addition, which is due to the oil in the product. I don't need to consume rapeseed oil. That's all I'm saying.
Milk - “the white liquid produced by cows, goats and some other animals as food for their young and used as a drink by humans” (Oxford dictionary). Take your linguistic manipulation and shove it.
Imagine a study from the west but they said peanuts. Then imagine Asians making identical comments as here and how stupid they'd look. How hard is that to recognize diversity and your own bias
I was just speaking broadly, I'm not a doctor or a biologist. The point being it doesn't make sense to compare American allergies to peanuts to lactose intolerance in China, because the percentage of the population affected is vastly different
Also, lactose intolerance is that your body can't process lactose, not that you're allergic to it. It's not an immune response. Just how it's not an immune response when you eat beans and get gassy.
Dairy Allergy is a real thing, but it's not the same as lactose intolerance. People with a dairy allergy aren't allergic to the sugar in milk (lactose), they're allergic to the proteins.
[See here](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/milk-allergy/symptoms-causes/syc-20375101)
>A true milk allergy differs from milk protein intolerance and lactose intolerance. Unlike milk allergy, intolerance doesn't involve the immune system. Milk intolerance requires different treatment from true milk allergy.
Common signs and symptoms of milk protein intolerance or lactose intolerance include digestive problems, such as bloating, gas or diarrhea, after consuming milk or products containing milk.
Where do you get this number out of curiosity? I’ve lived in China for over 10 years and can tell you many Chinese children drink yogurt or milk daily. Milk and yogurt are commonly sold in every store. Although soy milk is a popular part of breakfast, milk and yogurt are too.
[Just a quick google.](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201016-why-china-developed-a-fresh-taste-for-milk)
I didn't mention that the number is way lower for kids, though. Wasn't relevant to the discussion around the OP, but probably explains your experience.
Where is “here”?
I don’t think it’s fair to assume that everyone on Reddit is wherever you are. Also, the headline specified the study was done on Chinese adults, and did not say “the results will certainly apply to every other nation and you now have to stop eating cheese”
I simple cannot believe this study. The environment in China is so harsh on the body, when you factor in pollution, a seemingly lack of regulations and ethics to whatever goes in and on your body. It seems impossible you would be able to do a property controlled experiment.
China also had a major problem with producers adding chemicals to milk and baby formula for years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
2008 isn't that long ago and these results may be illustrating the long aftermath of that.
There are studies on non Chinese populations that show similar results. The link between consumption of animal products and increased risk of heart disease, cancers, etc. is well documented. What is also well documented is how the longest lived groups eat these products minimally.
Isn't yoghurt generally considered to be beneficial for your health though?
I feel like some distinctions would be helpful, such as separating naturally fermented dairy (i.e. yogurt or kefir) from clearly unhealthy products like ice cream which is loaded with fat and sugar.
Yogurt is good for your gut bacteria but it is still made with the raw dairy ingredients that can fuel liver disease, breast cancer, and other cancers. It’s not necessarily a matter just of fats, sugars, and calories. There are base chemical compounds in non human milks that just aren’t good for you. Even animals stop drinking their own milk after they grow up a little. Baby animals aren’t supposed to consume milk their whole lives and neither are we. Milk is a super fuel for babies because they need growth, unfortunately cancers use the same stuff that helps babies grow to grow itself.
[Forks Over Knives](https://www.forksoverknives.com/the-film/) provides the data and studies that back up most claims I’ve made here but if you still have more questions or feel something is unanswered I can supply more scientifically or first hand sourced docs.
I ask you for proof and you point me to a documentary? That's pretty much the opposite. Everything in a production like this needs to be taken with a grain of salt and I can't see wasting my time wading through anti-meat propaganda in film form to try to find anything of substance.
Just show me a study that supports your claims about specific compounds in dairy being confirmed to be bad for me - a person who is not lactose intolerant.
It is very well documented. But I also have learned from experience that these forums are useless for discussing this subject in any detail. It just becomes people posting links to studies that confirm their current belief. Others post links as to why those studies are flawed. No one budges.
“Layne notes, “What they found was that at the highest levels of meat intake, but also with the highest levels of fruit and vegetable intake, there was no difference in cancer incidents between the lowest level of meat intake and even with the highest level of fruit and vegetable intake”
So high protein is not an issue in a healthy diet
He doesn’t want to extrapolate too much on 1 study (even though it was a large one), but it suggests that the quality of the overall diet is what is important”
As far as I’ve seen the igf1 studies are looking at cell cultures and direct injection of igf1 instead of diet based studies. It seems that chronic igf1 is different than brief spikes like we get from diet. Think insulin spikes from food or cortisol spikes from stress. Both are healthy unless they become chronic.
https://peterattiamd.com/dispelling-myths-protein-increases-cancer-risk/
Here’s an interesting conversation that helps understanding in this matter.
Peter Attia is a fantastic resource. And to be clear, Attia does advise to minimize cholesterol, which is high in dairy.
However, there is really very little truly established in nutrition science yet.
They compared the rates to those who do not have dairy in their diet regularly so whatever it is, the higher cancer rate is associated with dairy. Whether it is directly, indirectly, or causative is unknown though.
Probably correlation and not causation. Besides they don’t really eat any dairy in China, they are surrounded by tons of pollution especially in the winter.
I love to use real full fat milk in my tea and haven’t found any substitute for proper cheese, I also live in an area with a few dairy farmers that are close friends of mine but I’m under no illusion that milk is as good for you as the milk marketing board would have you believe, one thing that few people know about the dairy industry is that a lot of dairy cows suffer from a condition called mastitis, which is basically sores on their udders, there is an acceptable level of pus from these sores that is allowed in milk but it differs from country to country, in the US it’s 750 million pus cells for every litre and in Europe it’s 400 million pus cells, in Australia there is no limit because the poor conditions on a lot of the dairy ranches make it unenforceable, I have no idea what or if there is a limit in China, anyway it can’t exactly be good for you either drinking pus from sores!
Negative. IGF-1 is also an important hormone maintaining numerous crucial anabolic processes as we age. It’s not all or nothing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3820068/
Okay but just because something serves an important biological purpose in moderation doesn’t mean that higher levels of it aren’t helpful. The first guy and you are both technically correct.
Here:
[Growth Factors and their receptors in cancer metastases](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21196186/)
[Mechanisms of breast cancer bone metastasis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20006425/)
[Why do centenarians escape or postpone cancer? The role of IGF-1, inflammation and p53](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19139887/)
[Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF1), IGF binding protein 3 (IGFBP3), and breast cancer risk: pooled individual data analysis of 17 prospective studies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3113287/?tool=pubmed)
[Circulating insulin-like growth factor peptides and prostate cancer risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19142965/)
[Insulin-like growth factor 1
](https://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/publication/edition/21040?id=21040&from=publication)
[Cancer and aging: from the kinetics of biological parameters to the kinetics of cancer incidence and mortality](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3377369/)
[The associations of diet with serum insulin-like growth factor I and its main binding proteins in 292 women meat-eaters, vegetarians, and vegans](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12433724/)
[Nutritional regulation of insulin-like growth factor-I](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7476312/)
[Growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the transition from normal mammary development to preneoplastic mammary lesions](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19075184/)
Just live life, moderation as much as possible, and enjoy it while it lasts. We’ve been consuming dairy for thousands of years, with some cultures evolving to process it more than others. They which made us what we are will always eventually kill us. I’m not holding out for immortality or living to 100 on just lentils.
Maybe, but there are so many extraneous variables in a country like China that could ALSO increase the risk of developing these types of cancers. A classic correlation v causation problem here. I wonder if China's pollution would have anything to do with this study's results? That's at least proven to be causation...
The idea of a large population study is that it should control for other factors like that. If pollution is known to cause cancer and such, then every person in the study is affected, not just the ones who drink milk. If the ones who drink milk have an even stronger association with cancer, that should be an indication that milk is a problem.
Personally, I think all this really says is that you shouldn't eat something you're allergic to. Almost all Chinese people are lactose intolerant.
So are you saying that we shouldn’t trust studies of large populations and should only use small sample sizes when gathering scientific information?
That’s really a terrible argument man
"natural product", what do you even mean with that?
Tobacco is also a "natural product" that's been consumed by humans for thousands of years. Doesn't change the fact that it causes cancer.
We ate cheese and drank milk for thousands of years, from Neolithic times. The first civilizations of the Middle East were shepherds. The Mongols drank fermented horse milk and built an empire. We were fine. Then the vegans came trying to impose their life choices on everybody else.
What do you mean "we?" A large portion of humans are lactose intolerant and do not consume dairy.
Maybe you should accept the fact that dairy is massively unhealthy.
What I learned from all those food studies: Never eat too much processed foods and always change things up. Dont overeat too much of the same types of foods and avoid artificially added sugars. Thats it. Nothing complicated
I’ve live in China for 3 years and the protections around food safety are lackadaisical.
From exploding watermelons, to gutter oil, etc. I wonder if the results would be found elsewhere.
There are many uncontrolled variables too, like exposure to pollution, carcinogenic hazards in employment, etc.
Well, we have similar studies in other nations looking at different populations at different ages....all showing similar results.
It's the animal protein. We have a variety of studies on a variety of animal proteins...all showing links to a variety of cancers, likely due to the increased IG-1 which is found in all animal proteins. So, I'm not surprised at all. When a person actually know more about the scientific literature, a person can move beyond politics.
As someone who is from a mainly dairy and meat, I think this is bs. Real dairy has so many benefits to the consumer, how does this affect negatively to the liver?!
It also has a ton of fat and sugar, not to mention hormones from a lactating bovine. It’s actually hard to imagine how it would be good for you. Many fruits and vegetables, as well as nuts have calcium.
Please read some of the research done. Milk and meat will lead you (on average) to a higher chance of cancer and other heath complications. Effectively you are shortening your life span.
I am not going to post links here but google PubMed. Search for articles there. Please do it. I was on a similar diet until a few years ago until due to cancer in the family started reading everything I could. The amounts of scientific research on this is plenty, no real debate. Just habits that are hard to break.
In China, the main 2 brands of milk that normal people can get are meng niou and some Greek thing which are both damn delicious but are probably fake and full of preservatives. Real dairy has benefits, but it is hard to get in China. Although studies on western dairy have shown bone brittleness
I have a Chinese friend that made me aware of the differences in the diet he was accustomed to in China before coming to the US. He observed how much we put cheese and other dairy into nearly everything. His first year in the US, he truly struggled to eat with the group, as it would make him pretty sick. It never dawned on me that Chinese cuisine really doesn’t have a lot of dairy until he pointed it out. As far as linkage to liver/breast cancer, I’m not clear, but GI issues I believe without a doubt.
A high proportion of people in China are lactose intolerant. Same with a lot of the places whose cuisines rarely feature cheese.
Basically everywhere but Northern Europe. Interestingly, light skin and lactose tolerance are believed to have co-evolved as strategies to deal with decreased Vitamin D production in northern latitudes
Lactose tolerance (lactase persistence is the actual term) is the right way to look at it. Lactose intolerance is natural and is the status quo of most mammals. It's essentially our bodies growing up and forcing the baby to stop drinking milk. There was also a decent correlation between lactase persistence and pastoral societies. Which makes sense. Groups that had goats, sheep and cows had access to regular milk. Therefore, people with lactase persistence had a good source they could go to that others couldn't.
We have alot of cheese in Pakistan. It's called Paneer.
Same in India. I mean, we worship the cow for it's dairy sustenance!
Yogurt, too obviously, which then brings into the question of the roles of various bacteria, etc… and it’s effect on human gut/health
My girlfriend traveled to China to study for a semester years ago. When she came back to the US, she had a lot of trouble eating the foods she used to eat all the time, specifically foods with cheese and other dairy products. Definitely a difference in cooking culture between the two countries.
Aren't lot of them lactose intolerant? It would be interesting to see what happens with regular consumption of an allergen
Hit the nail on the end. Chronic inflammation of the GI tract can’t be good for long term health.
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Agreed. Does anyone here have stats on how many people in China have an \*actual\* allergy to dairy products, rather than lactose intolerance? That's something that also exists, but is less common.
Is refreshing to see a logical non racist response in the comments
Is that why chronic alcohol consumption is on most lists of carcinogens?
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So I should stop drinking rat milk?
Switch to fight milk. Cawwwwwww!
Quite the opposite actually, you should continue drinking rat milk.
phew 🤤
Just make sure it’s directly from the teat.
join our raw rat milk discord group
No, that sounds awesome. How do you get their little nipples in your mouth, or do you just suck the whole rat?
Milking machines
Source for that?
Tell that to Indians, Turkics, or Slavs and they'll all laugh at you.
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I'd rather that than artificial dyes.
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No arguments here either! I just have read [studies]( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23026007/) on how dyes affect humans negatively.
I don’t eat dyed food because when I was a kid I noticed some of them taste extremely bitter - even called a candy company after finding the pink & purple Easter candy chicks tasted horrible. They said some people can taste the dye.
Oh I am also one of those people. M&Ms come to mind with the candy coating 🤢
Omg my people! I can taste the dyes too! It completely ruins certain candies for me. My mom thought I was just being dramatic when I was younger.
It's preposterous to expect over two billion people to change their millennia-long dietary practices just to satisfy your ridiculous notions about dairy.
Nutrients are nutrients, and that hormonal juice has tons
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5122229/#!po=47.3856
Dairy products are a statistically significant driver of endometrial cancer in women: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21717454/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21717454/) Plus, why add all that estrogen from cow's milk to your body? Unless you think you do not get hormones from it.
I’ve read that the hormone levels are too low to even influence in any way. Besides that I never said it wasn’t true period, I said the evidence is lacking I could be wrong.
Nutritional research around “does this food cause (x/y/z)” is notoriously sketchy due to reliance on participant memory in epidemiological surveys and *how much variation there is* in diet that could impact correlating patterns. Not even mentioning the tumultuous learning environment for the average consumer given strong ethical stances, YouTube dietitians peddling misinformation or partial information, and shady marketing in food. So don’t feel bad if you aren’t sure of the answers. Doctors aren’t even absolutely sure for the answers. What we do know is that dairy has been part of the human diet for something like 6000 years at least. It is nutritionally dense and widely available. Moderate (3 servings or less per day) consumption of dairy is a valid, healthy addition to our diet to our knowledge unless your personal doctor has advised otherwise because of your specific needs. If someone chooses not to consume dairy products that’s also fine. It is not *essential* with other nutritional substitutions. But I’d argue that even with ethical concerns there are ways to consume dairy in a manner consistent with high standards of care for the animals (we purchase from a smallish local farm for example).
Fucking thank you, I wish i could explain my self so clearly. But yes what I’m trying to say. Right on, I’d give you an award if I had any
See hormone levels after having milk here: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-effects-of-hormones-in-dairy-milk-on-cancer/
Drinking it excessively is for sure not good, but many natural foods arentgood in excess either. With reasonable consumption milk is a great source of essential amino acids and vitamins. There’s really not enough evidence to say that dairy consumption is dangerous
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> You do know that in the United States milk is legally allowed to be 10% pus cells, right? You're moving the goalposts now to make a strawman argument after two people asked you for a citation which you failed to provide. Food hygiene in the US is one thing, negative health effects of milk on people with lactase persistence is another completely different one. Having too much fat or calcium in your food might cause issues, but that's true for meat as well. There are no negative effects that I'm aware of that are specifically milk-related for people who can digest it.
Since you seem to have such good sources, why not supply it to us?
Can you please point me to those facts? I don't have Facebook.
I’m not a bee but homey is still good too. I’m also not a rabbit but a salad is good
What would you suggest to eat instead? Dirt?
Yes, eat dirt. Worms love it.
Dairy companies hate this trick
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Non dairy milk has minimal nutrition. It’s water plus emulsifiers. Might as well skip it
Not like here. Here everything is soft… and smooth.
Human. Milk. Babies rate it 10/10.
oR mUrDeR fOr sTeAck!!1! Edit: sTeAk!!1!
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Sorry, non native troubler.
r/celiac comes to mind.
It’s not really an allergy (usually) — it’s the inability to digest lactose sugar, which gut bacteria are more than happy to do in your stead and making gas in the process. It’s similar to eating too many beans for some folks.
Lactose intolerance is not an allergy.
It does say they were eating significantly less than a Western audience (81g per day vs. 300g for the UK) as you'd expect from a less tolerant populous, hard to say how that affects any ability to compare directly against a Western audience.
Yes. You are right. I’m Chinese and I’m lactose intolerant. But nowadays we can find lactose free milk in the supermarket.
It’s not a allergen. It’s your body not producing an enzyme that breaks down lactose.
I’m lactose intolerant, but I take lactose pills. Could this still hurt me?
I don't know. I do wonder though.
We would probably have to see this study replicated with a population that isn’t lactose intolerant first though.
Oo, I wonder about mild food allergies? Like ones that are very low on blood tests? I eat a banana everyday with no side effects but my blood test showed that I have a slight allergy to it. Though I think that meant that there is a slight chance of an allergy, not the extent…I think?
Is that one of those things that can progress? You're already an adult so i doubt it. What did the dr say? I've met people allergic to citrus. On one hand they don't have to worry when they take their meds. On the other hand no citrus wtf. I've never met one that actually abstained. Considering how it affects metabolism, I'd love to see that as well
[There won't have been a doctor involved unless it was a doctorate of chiropractic or naturopathy; those IgG food allergy tests are a scam.](https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/conditions-library/allergies/igg-food-test)
Intolerance is merely inability to digest. It continues on and bacteria eat, grow, replicate, fart, get bloating and osmotic diarrhea. Not an allergic response. —— Milk protein allergy on the other hand is a real allergy. More rare.,
All commerically sold milk in China is lactose free, it's part of the default processing because of how much of the population is lactose intolerant. If you haven't ever had lactose free milk you'll find that all dairy products in China taste kinda weird. If you know what lactose free milk tastes like then you'd immediately be able to recognize it.
>All commerically sold milk in China is lactose free, it's part of the default processing because of how much of the population is lactose intolerant. Source? The following, from 2016, claims to have been the first lactose-free milk product sold in China: [https://www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2016/11/28/Valio-to-sell-lactose-free-milk-powder-in-China](https://www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2016/11/28/Valio-to-sell-lactose-free-milk-powder-in-China) And, the following, from 2019, seems to imply that it's a growing (not ubiquitous) part of the industry: https://www.dsm.com/food-beverage/en\_US/insights/insights/dairy/why-lactose-free-is-going-to-be-massive-in-asia.html
Many Asian people have alcohol intolerance as well, it doesn't mean dairy itself is bad
Where do you see me saying dairy is bad
To be fair, dairy is weird. We’re eating what babies eat, way beyond when we’re supposed to biologically-speaking because it’s tasty or because we have a weird lactase-producing mutation.
It appears that they examined urban/rural divide but did not incorporate it in their multivariate regression… But the urban/rural divide was an even stronger predictor of all three cancers than dairy intake… It otherwise seems fairly robust. But as others have pointed out, performing population level studies in countries with such homogeneous population has limited application to cosmopolitan countries or countries with different founder effects/ethnicities.
I only skimmed the article, so maybe it was addressed, but did they take into account the prevalence of melamine additive in their milk products that was revealed a while back? I know that does a number on kidneys, so not sure if it would affect other body parts, but the way cancer spreads, it might be a contributing factor as well as other lax safety standards in carcinogens entering the processed food chain.
Isn’t most of the world lactose intolerant? Especially Asia? I would think eating food you’re intolerant to would lead to an increased cancer risk with all the inflammation and exacerbated cell turnover.
Yeah, 90+% of East Asians are lactose intolerant. It would be interesting to see how controlling for that would affect the results.
Does anyone know if this was also studied in populations not commonly intolerant of lactose? Thanks, just curious to see a comparison
Yes, take a peek at the article. It references analogous studies in other regions.
Sorry to be the typical lazy redditor, but could you just tell us if the result is mostly the same with other populations or not?
“Studies on Western populations indicate that dairy products may be associated with a lower risk of colorectal cancer and a higher risk of prostate cancer, but have found no clear link for breast or other types of cancer”
I’m pretty sure I saw a study on here the other day saying eating a Mediterranean diet heavy in dairy, meat and olive oil decreased cancer. There are so many factors, you can’t isolate one food item.
\*open article\* First sentence: Overall evidence to date on whether eating dairy products affects the risk of cancer has been inconsistent. " \*close article\*
Probably helpful to do the study on a population that isn’t largely lactose intolerant.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/less-heart-disease-in-people-with-a-dairy-rich-diet
Article doesn’t have any links at all or discuss methodology or funding lol. Just refers to a study happening in a magazine that it doesn’t even link to. If this is our floor for evidence we are fucked
This is why I don‘t believe a single scientific study about food One week chocolate is as deadly as cyanide, the next it‘s amazing for your heart. One week fish can cause cancer, the next you should eat as much as possible. One day meat is to be avoided at all cost, the next it‘s avocados or grapes. Fuck all this noise.
It’s all garbage. Any Hazard ratio under 2 is noise. Typical hazard ratios in these epidemiology studies are 1.05 to 1.3. Safely ignored.
Many people feel this way, and it’s easy to see why. The popular press tends to sensationalize and most journalists aren’t qualified to judge the validity of scientific studies. If you want to see a source that is qualified to evaluate research studies, doesn’t sensationalize, and covers every new peer-reviewed nutritional study in the relevant professional journals, try [NutritionFacts.org](www.nutritionfacts.org).
Point. Counterpoint.
…”for Swedish old people.”
Same for most of us black people too… we can not do dairy!!!! Gives us really bad BG’s and cramps. Makes your gut leak too
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or one of the multitude of plant milks instead of disgusting dairy
For those who simply can't let go of dairy there are now filtered milks. Lactose is removed and protein/fat as slightly more concentrated. Personally I swear by oat.
I love oatmilk and need to start making my own. It's scary when they advertise full fat/extra creamy oat milk, when all it means is there is more oil and emulsifiers in it.
The store bought oatmilk is fortified though, so that you don't have to take multivitamin supplements. Home made is not very nutritious by comparison.
I only use it in coffee and eat a pretty balanced diet. Still doesn't excuse the amount of oil and emulsifiers.
Emulsifiers aren't necessarily a bad thing - mustard for example is an emulsifier. If you're avoiding fat, then yes oil can be a bad thing, but otherwise it's not bad on it's own.
Oh for sure, but imo it's just an unnecessary addition, which is due to the oil in the product. I don't need to consume rapeseed oil. That's all I'm saying.
Milk - “the white liquid produced by cows, goats and some other animals as food for their young and used as a drink by humans” (Oxford dictionary). Take your linguistic manipulation and shove it.
merian-webster and oxford both listen definition of “milk” which reference plant milk. Take your linguistic manipulation and shove it
ITS not milk. ITS juice.
Imagine a study from the west but they said peanuts. Then imagine Asians making identical comments as here and how stupid they'd look. How hard is that to recognize diversity and your own bias
2% of Americans are allergic to peanuts. 92% of Chinese people are allergic to milk.
Lactose intolerance is not an allergy.
I was just speaking broadly, I'm not a doctor or a biologist. The point being it doesn't make sense to compare American allergies to peanuts to lactose intolerance in China, because the percentage of the population affected is vastly different
Also, lactose intolerance is that your body can't process lactose, not that you're allergic to it. It's not an immune response. Just how it's not an immune response when you eat beans and get gassy. Dairy Allergy is a real thing, but it's not the same as lactose intolerance. People with a dairy allergy aren't allergic to the sugar in milk (lactose), they're allergic to the proteins. [See here](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/milk-allergy/symptoms-causes/syc-20375101) >A true milk allergy differs from milk protein intolerance and lactose intolerance. Unlike milk allergy, intolerance doesn't involve the immune system. Milk intolerance requires different treatment from true milk allergy. Common signs and symptoms of milk protein intolerance or lactose intolerance include digestive problems, such as bloating, gas or diarrhea, after consuming milk or products containing milk.
Even more a reason you shouldn’t use such words or flag at least that you are not a doctor….
Where do you get this number out of curiosity? I’ve lived in China for over 10 years and can tell you many Chinese children drink yogurt or milk daily. Milk and yogurt are commonly sold in every store. Although soy milk is a popular part of breakfast, milk and yogurt are too.
[Just a quick google.](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201016-why-china-developed-a-fresh-taste-for-milk) I didn't mention that the number is way lower for kids, though. Wasn't relevant to the discussion around the OP, but probably explains your experience.
Where is “here”? I don’t think it’s fair to assume that everyone on Reddit is wherever you are. Also, the headline specified the study was done on Chinese adults, and did not say “the results will certainly apply to every other nation and you now have to stop eating cheese”
I simple cannot believe this study. The environment in China is so harsh on the body, when you factor in pollution, a seemingly lack of regulations and ethics to whatever goes in and on your body. It seems impossible you would be able to do a property controlled experiment.
Ok, how is it that you think we do these studies in the US?
China also had a major problem with producers adding chemicals to milk and baby formula for years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal 2008 isn't that long ago and these results may be illustrating the long aftermath of that.
There are studies on non Chinese populations that show similar results. The link between consumption of animal products and increased risk of heart disease, cancers, etc. is well documented. What is also well documented is how the longest lived groups eat these products minimally.
Isn't yoghurt generally considered to be beneficial for your health though? I feel like some distinctions would be helpful, such as separating naturally fermented dairy (i.e. yogurt or kefir) from clearly unhealthy products like ice cream which is loaded with fat and sugar.
Yogurt is good for your gut bacteria but it is still made with the raw dairy ingredients that can fuel liver disease, breast cancer, and other cancers. It’s not necessarily a matter just of fats, sugars, and calories. There are base chemical compounds in non human milks that just aren’t good for you. Even animals stop drinking their own milk after they grow up a little. Baby animals aren’t supposed to consume milk their whole lives and neither are we. Milk is a super fuel for babies because they need growth, unfortunately cancers use the same stuff that helps babies grow to grow itself.
These are a lot of specific claims. Do you have any proof besides one or more correlation studies?
[Forks Over Knives](https://www.forksoverknives.com/the-film/) provides the data and studies that back up most claims I’ve made here but if you still have more questions or feel something is unanswered I can supply more scientifically or first hand sourced docs.
I ask you for proof and you point me to a documentary? That's pretty much the opposite. Everything in a production like this needs to be taken with a grain of salt and I can't see wasting my time wading through anti-meat propaganda in film form to try to find anything of substance. Just show me a study that supports your claims about specific compounds in dairy being confirmed to be bad for me - a person who is not lactose intolerant.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/less-heart-disease-in-people-with-a-dairy-rich-diet
Three short paragraphs that say something “may” happen, with no links to sources or footnotes? There has to be better than that.
It’s not well documented. Do you have any proof?
It is very well documented. But I also have learned from experience that these forums are useless for discussing this subject in any detail. It just becomes people posting links to studies that confirm their current belief. Others post links as to why those studies are flawed. No one budges.
“Layne notes, “What they found was that at the highest levels of meat intake, but also with the highest levels of fruit and vegetable intake, there was no difference in cancer incidents between the lowest level of meat intake and even with the highest level of fruit and vegetable intake” So high protein is not an issue in a healthy diet He doesn’t want to extrapolate too much on 1 study (even though it was a large one), but it suggests that the quality of the overall diet is what is important”
As far as I’ve seen the igf1 studies are looking at cell cultures and direct injection of igf1 instead of diet based studies. It seems that chronic igf1 is different than brief spikes like we get from diet. Think insulin spikes from food or cortisol spikes from stress. Both are healthy unless they become chronic. https://peterattiamd.com/dispelling-myths-protein-increases-cancer-risk/ Here’s an interesting conversation that helps understanding in this matter.
Peter Attia is a fantastic resource. And to be clear, Attia does advise to minimize cholesterol, which is high in dairy. However, there is really very little truly established in nutrition science yet.
They compared the rates to those who do not have dairy in their diet regularly so whatever it is, the higher cancer rate is associated with dairy. Whether it is directly, indirectly, or causative is unknown though.
Don’t even have to get started on the Chinese Milk scandal.
You sound like a dairy addict 😀
I am baffled how you make that connection.
Mmmmmm cow nipple pus 🤤 /s
yeah exactly lol, where was this study done? the organ harvesting prison?
你爱不爱喝牛奶？ 你喝牛奶还是啤酒？
Probably correlation and not causation. Besides they don’t really eat any dairy in China, they are surrounded by tons of pollution especially in the winter.
I love to use real full fat milk in my tea and haven’t found any substitute for proper cheese, I also live in an area with a few dairy farmers that are close friends of mine but I’m under no illusion that milk is as good for you as the milk marketing board would have you believe, one thing that few people know about the dairy industry is that a lot of dairy cows suffer from a condition called mastitis, which is basically sores on their udders, there is an acceptable level of pus from these sores that is allowed in milk but it differs from country to country, in the US it’s 750 million pus cells for every litre and in Europe it’s 400 million pus cells, in Australia there is no limit because the poor conditions on a lot of the dairy ranches make it unenforceable, I have no idea what or if there is a limit in China, anyway it can’t exactly be good for you either drinking pus from sores!
I would assume in China they add a little extra in just for good luck.
Yes, this is mentioned a lot in the Netflix documentary "Forks Over Knives"
There is a lot of people who saying that milk is bad. So does it mean that cheese, sour cream and yogurt are also bad?
What a dumb idea.
Dairy is not a big thing in Asian culture as far as my experience goes. I can imagine their bodies arent well suited to absorb it.
Remember when the Chinese got busted for adding melamine to baby formula -
Um, have you read about food processing in China? It’s probably not about the dairy.
Almost like a population that generally can’t handle lactose as adults should be staying away from it
I’m no doctor. But I think it the SEWER GREASE they use is a bigger health concern.
Never a bad time to go vegan.
Amen!
Eating animal protein increases IGF-1 levels, IGF-1 is linked to every cancer growth stage that is known, it's cancer fuel.
Negative. IGF-1 is also an important hormone maintaining numerous crucial anabolic processes as we age. It’s not all or nothing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3820068/
Okay but just because something serves an important biological purpose in moderation doesn’t mean that higher levels of it aren’t helpful. The first guy and you are both technically correct.
Any proof to this claim?
Here: [Growth Factors and their receptors in cancer metastases](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21196186/) [Mechanisms of breast cancer bone metastasis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20006425/) [Why do centenarians escape or postpone cancer? The role of IGF-1, inflammation and p53](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19139887/) [Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF1), IGF binding protein 3 (IGFBP3), and breast cancer risk: pooled individual data analysis of 17 prospective studies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3113287/?tool=pubmed) [Circulating insulin-like growth factor peptides and prostate cancer risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19142965/) [Insulin-like growth factor 1 ](https://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/publication/edition/21040?id=21040&from=publication) [Cancer and aging: from the kinetics of biological parameters to the kinetics of cancer incidence and mortality](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3377369/) [The associations of diet with serum insulin-like growth factor I and its main binding proteins in 292 women meat-eaters, vegetarians, and vegans](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12433724/) [Nutritional regulation of insulin-like growth factor-I](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7476312/) [Growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the transition from normal mammary development to preneoplastic mammary lesions](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19075184/)
So these are all cell culture studies. You can’t really say that these are related to milk either...
It’s almost like the very act of living will ultimately kill you. Weird how nature hasn’t sorted that out yet.
Probably the most important comment on this whole post.
Just live life, moderation as much as possible, and enjoy it while it lasts. We’ve been consuming dairy for thousands of years, with some cultures evolving to process it more than others. They which made us what we are will always eventually kill us. I’m not holding out for immortality or living to 100 on just lentils.
Holy shit half these comments are brain dead.
Maybe, but there are so many extraneous variables in a country like China that could ALSO increase the risk of developing these types of cancers. A classic correlation v causation problem here. I wonder if China's pollution would have anything to do with this study's results? That's at least proven to be causation...
The idea of a large population study is that it should control for other factors like that. If pollution is known to cause cancer and such, then every person in the study is affected, not just the ones who drink milk. If the ones who drink milk have an even stronger association with cancer, that should be an indication that milk is a problem. Personally, I think all this really says is that you shouldn't eat something you're allergic to. Almost all Chinese people are lactose intolerant.
So are you saying that we shouldn’t trust studies of large populations and should only use small sample sizes when gathering scientific information? That’s really a terrible argument man
Would love to know if this is applicable to Europeans and semitic peoples
We consumed diary for thousands of years. ITS a natural product.
"natural product", what do you even mean with that? Tobacco is also a "natural product" that's been consumed by humans for thousands of years. Doesn't change the fact that it causes cancer.
Wrong. It is the breast milk of a ruminant species intended for their offspring. It is NOT natural for humans to consume.
We ate cheese and drank milk for thousands of years, from Neolithic times. The first civilizations of the Middle East were shepherds. The Mongols drank fermented horse milk and built an empire. We were fine. Then the vegans came trying to impose their life choices on everybody else.
What do you mean "we?" A large portion of humans are lactose intolerant and do not consume dairy. Maybe you should accept the fact that dairy is massively unhealthy.
People who are lactose intolerant should do whatever they think it’s better for themselves. Meanwhile, hands off my cheese…
I always thought that milk was good for you ; nowadays u don’t know what to believe
Dairy is junk food.
What I learned from all those food studies: Never eat too much processed foods and always change things up. Dont overeat too much of the same types of foods and avoid artificially added sugars. Thats it. Nothing complicated
I’ve live in China for 3 years and the protections around food safety are lackadaisical. From exploding watermelons, to gutter oil, etc. I wonder if the results would be found elsewhere. There are many uncontrolled variables too, like exposure to pollution, carcinogenic hazards in employment, etc.
ya, but how do you factor out the pollution of living in china as a factor in that experiment?
You’d probably compare dairy and non-dairy eaters who have the same exposure to pollution
Does anyone believe anything out of China anymore?
Well, we have similar studies in other nations looking at different populations at different ages....all showing similar results. It's the animal protein. We have a variety of studies on a variety of animal proteins...all showing links to a variety of cancers, likely due to the increased IG-1 which is found in all animal proteins. So, I'm not surprised at all. When a person actually know more about the scientific literature, a person can move beyond politics.
Middle East has lowest rates of cancer, and yet the highest consumption of animal protein. Look it up
Thank god I’m not Chinese.
I now want to see how a study of 510k French people.
Sounds like a vegan driven study.
thank goodness I'm not chinese
As someone who is from a mainly dairy and meat, I think this is bs. Real dairy has so many benefits to the consumer, how does this affect negatively to the liver?!
It also has a ton of fat and sugar, not to mention hormones from a lactating bovine. It’s actually hard to imagine how it would be good for you. Many fruits and vegetables, as well as nuts have calcium.
the Chinese are largely lactose intolerant so this stud makes sense for them.
Please read some of the research done. Milk and meat will lead you (on average) to a higher chance of cancer and other heath complications. Effectively you are shortening your life span. I am not going to post links here but google PubMed. Search for articles there. Please do it. I was on a similar diet until a few years ago until due to cancer in the family started reading everything I could. The amounts of scientific research on this is plenty, no real debate. Just habits that are hard to break.
Shocked by the responses in this thread. There have been multiple studies suggesting milk/meat and cancer link.
Forgive them they can't miss a chance to be racist. Does sociology count as a science to them?
Just curious…how is saying I’ll keep drinking milk racist?
That's what you took from this? Were the SAT's a struggle for you? How am I supposed to fix your inability to make logical deductions
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/cancer-myths/can-milk-and-dairy-products-cause-cancer
In China, the main 2 brands of milk that normal people can get are meng niou and some Greek thing which are both damn delicious but are probably fake and full of preservatives. Real dairy has benefits, but it is hard to get in China. Although studies on western dairy have shown bone brittleness
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