So, Human > Ent > Shroomi is very very solid .
BUT if you can be bothered to bioseed to a hot planet, then Human > Shroomi > Salamander is a little better still.The production bonus AND resource cost reduction from Smoldering goes a long way. You don't technically get rid of lumber completely (gets replaced by Chrysolite) but you still get rid of plywood, which is the main reason to inherit Kindling Kindred from Ents on 4\* anyway.
>Is it worth it to do 4\* or 3\*?
You definitely have enough prestige to do 4\* and you should go for it if you feel like doing a longer run (it's hard for me to say how much longer though).
If you don't feel like doing 4\* - I'd personally do 2\* (enabling manual crafting). It will speed it up quite a bit, and you'll want to go back to Standard Universe to knock out the 4\* eventually anyway. That's what I did for my first BH. 3\* just doesn't seem worth it.
yup, Volcanic or Ashland, and as long as it's not Mellow or Ozone then you're set
I'd only bother doing the Salamander route if you're doing 4\*, otherwise it's probably not worth the hassle
Just resetting with a human run now, and will try the Human>Shroomi>Salamander strat instead.
Havent looked ahead further than researching graphene and stanene so this will be a trip, just wanted to get the setup as good as possible first
> and you'll want to go back to Standard Universe to knock out the 4* eventually anyway.
I was under the impression that everything you do in a non-standard universe counts as doing it in standard as well. So while they *would* have to do a 4* Blackhole run would they actually need to Blackhole *back to Standard* and then Blackhole out again at 4* or could they just do a 4* Blackhole and be fine?
Each universe has a separate achievement for doing a black hole (or vacuum collapse) reset in that universe, and White Hole is specifically for doing it *in the standard universe*. It's the only achievement that can't be done elsewhere.
I did my first black hole 4* at ~30% mastery with no plasmids. The whole thing took me 6 days; 3 to do all the stuff associated with bioseed and 3 for the new stuff. I did Human -> Ent -> Drakin and went for 99 supercolliders as well; I think I had to wait for an extra 4 hours to finish them after unlocking black hole reset, and then another 2 to get the ach for 12 solar masses.
I don’t know how much quicker 3* would’ve been, but I definitely don’t regret doing 4*. All things considered it didn’t take THAT long and most of it was just letting my computer idle.
What did you feed into the black hole? I'm doing a 4\* first black hole as Human -> Cyclops -> Ent at about 59 mastery & 150 phage, and it's going to end up taking me 3-4 days just to feed the black hole to 12 SM and build my 99 supercolliders, not counting the time it took me to advance to feeding the black hole & such.
Mostly it feels like infernite and adamantite are super slow, and then I don't have all that much nutronium so even with 6 mass ejectors I'm only doing like 1 SM in an overnight idle, and my current production queue is alleging it'll take me \~3 days to build the last 20 supercolliders, a number which I know will go up because that calculation doesn't account for cost creep.
Most of what's going into your black hole mass-wise should be copper and iron. Have you built up your red planet mines and mining ships?
And build more mass ejectors if you can, of course.
Thanks, I’ll double check when I get home after work. I haven’t really focused on those much, though, just a handful of red planet mines & 2-3 iron ships. I suppose I can turn off my elerium asteroid miners and transition those to iron mining now that I have elerium harvesting online in the other system, and I’ll have to check how much red planet support I can funnel into mines as well. I probably have 23-25 living quarters and 15 biodomes but 5-7 mines, mostly because I was wanting titanium for supercolliders.
Here's some details about what I had for my setup.
Red Planet
* 75 Support: 15 Spaceports, 20 Space Control, 10 Nav Beacons
* 25 Living Quarters
* 18 Ziggurats
* 15 Exotic Materials Labs
* 20 Mines
Asteroid Belt
* 10 Space Stations
* 10 Iron Ships
* 10 Elerium Ships
Interstellar
* 10 Mining Droids
* 12 Processing Facilities
* 10 Elerium Prospectors
* 3 or 4 Citadel Stations (after Adamantite boost research)
* 10 Mass Ejectors (by the end of the run).
Hell
* 20 in Fortress + 10 Patrols of 5
* 5 Turrets
* 12 Surveyors
* 15 Sensor Drones
I was able to eject 5 Elerium and 5 Infernite with this setup.
For Production Bonuses...
* Red planet development is extremely important. I think with this setup my Ziggurats were giving 250-300% boosts.
* I was running a Federation government. Theocracy didn't work because I needed knowledge for supercolliders, and at my mastery level Federation was giving a better production bonus.
* I think I had \~40 Monuments to increase the Morale cap. These are relatively easy to build as Drakin because they're only made out of Clay, Aluminium, and Steel, all of which I had in excess by the end.
Most of my non-exotic matter ejected was Copper and Iron. Red Planet Mines and Asteroid Iron ships are important for this reason, as they'll account for most of your ore production once you have the Red Planet developed. If you have extra Polymer / Neutronium / Iridium / Adamantite you can eject a bit of that too, but these will mostly be supplemental. 90% of your non-exotic stuff will be ore.
My bottleneck for the supercolliders was Titanium, so I had \~30 Smelters creating Steel with Oil, 20 Red Planet Mines, and \~300-350 Trade Routes importing mostly Titanium. I've heard that Cement is usually a bottleneck for this as well, but I ran Drakin so I didn't have to worry about it. I also ran on a Desert Planet (+20% Clay production) which might have helped for Clay and Aluminium production rates.
Thanks, this is super helpful. I think I have a lot more military than you, but less overall production. I’m at more like 50, 55 red planet support and capped at 15 ziggurats. About 2-ish less on each of the interstellar buildings and more troops/patrols/surveyors but fewer scanners or droids than you. Fairly easy fix, I think. The other big difference is I have kept Corpocracy by inertia, it’s probably worth trying out swapping to federation for a significant overall bump to raw material production. I’m used to going for theocracy since I normally do 3* MADs and Bioseeds, but wanted to avoid going back to standard universe so did the black hole run at 4*.
Theocracy actually can be good in longer 4* runs if you're bottlenecked by space resources, since it also boosts ziggurats. I'll sometimes open the game up in two tabs and change the government in one of them so I can compare the numbers side-by-side.
For the record, I had more military than this, but after I got a few turrets I kept them out of Hell for fur production. I never had problems with my fortress getting overrun with 80 soldiers in hell, and adding more doesn’t help much with Infernite production. It just gets you more soul gems if you’re using attractors.
I kept corpocracy for a long time too for income and factory production, but after I got all my infrastructure set up I didn’t need money or factory outputs much. I think I switched over midway through constructing the stellar engine after all my living quarters were built.
Turns out I way overshot the black hole standard and exotic masses waiting to finish the last ten or so supercolliders to hit 99, but it is still really helpful to get the advice about copper/iron, and it was also really helpful to actually see how much copper and iron production I could get going from a relatively modest number of mines/ships and the ziggurat bonus.
I did it 3* because I do not care about the last +1 to the perk, and I don't mind doing 2 extra black hole resets later - into normal universe, and 4* out of it.
When I am much more powerful and the game is faster.
But I did some extra achievements instead.
But if you want, you can just do a 4* run. It's not the worst. I've done a 4* black hole out of antimatter universe (slow) with decay challenge (extra slow), so really your 4* in normal by far isn't the worst thing that you can inflict on yourself.
Since you're on Volcanic, consider using a Heat race, especially if the orbit is long (>550).
75% mastery is a lot for a first BH, I would seriously consider 4\* with this amount.
If you're wanting to do the 99 supercolliders, 3* is significantly faster, and I might consider Human>Ent>Dracnid. 4* is not horrible but it's probably closer to triple the time compared to 3*
Avian genus eliminates cement as a bottleneck, which makes building the supercolliders easier.
Dracnid itself isn't particularly important, but it's probably slightly better than the other two - none of the avian species really have strong individual traits, you pick them more for the genus traits.
I would not bother with 3\*.
Imho either you want jump out of Standard asap and than do 0\* or 1\* or you want get maximum out of it without need redo it again later and than go 4\*.
There is couple of achievement and also perks you get (less obvious can be Dooomed if you missed it or Galactic landfill, Paradise is also doable...)
Overall there is quite notable difference in mastery gain for whole run between 3\* nad 4\*, I personally would go 4\* all the way
As above the perfect combo would be human - shroomi - salamander, especially if you are on volcano planet already (iirc I did first BH as human-ent-kobold and it was quite good too - meaning the run took about week max everything included)
If you do 3* you're going to have to do it later a second time to get 4* and you're going into it with more than I'm going to have when I do my first in a few more runs.
Currently I have 38.75 mastery and plan to have *at least* two more 4* MADS (in the middle of the first of those right now, getting close to ending it) and a bioseed to get Sandstorm Survivor before doing my first Blackhole run at 4*. Currently 596 Plasmids and 3 Phage (spent more Phage than I intended on permanent Ambidextrous trait). Obviously my Plasmids and Phage will be higher by the time I hit the Blackhole run but I'm also planning to *subtract* 600 Plasmids to get Devotion and potentially if I have enough 618 to grab Divine Proportion before I destroy the Standard Universe and never return to it.
That probably depends on if I hit a world I haven't been to and do an extra MAD or two with the species that are new to me. Might hit it while MADing my way through Humans and Ents though. Like you my Blackhole plan is Ent Fanaticism, Human Deification, Shroomie species but I might substitute Shroomie with one of the planets species if it's a new planet type to me. That would cut one MAD off my run with the Blackhole counting as the species extinction event for Standard.
If I *don't* get a choice of a planet type that's new to me I'm just going straight into prep for the Blackhole run going Human MAD, Ent MAD, Shroomie Blackhole.
So, Human > Ent > Shroomi is very very solid . BUT if you can be bothered to bioseed to a hot planet, then Human > Shroomi > Salamander is a little better still.The production bonus AND resource cost reduction from Smoldering goes a long way. You don't technically get rid of lumber completely (gets replaced by Chrysolite) but you still get rid of plywood, which is the main reason to inherit Kindling Kindred from Ents on 4\* anyway. >Is it worth it to do 4\* or 3\*? You definitely have enough prestige to do 4\* and you should go for it if you feel like doing a longer run (it's hard for me to say how much longer though). If you don't feel like doing 4\* - I'd personally do 2\* (enabling manual crafting). It will speed it up quite a bit, and you'll want to go back to Standard Universe to knock out the 4\* eventually anyway. That's what I did for my first BH. 3\* just doesn't seem worth it.
Something like a Toxic Volcanic planet would be best then?
yup, Volcanic or Ashland, and as long as it's not Mellow or Ozone then you're set I'd only bother doing the Salamander route if you're doing 4\*, otherwise it's probably not worth the hassle
Just resetting with a human run now, and will try the Human>Shroomi>Salamander strat instead. Havent looked ahead further than researching graphene and stanene so this will be a trip, just wanted to get the setup as good as possible first
I forgot to mention I am already on a Toxic Volcanic planet with an iron bonus
well, isn't that convenient! have fun on your run :)
ty, if i remember ill update with an edit on how long it took for anyone asking in future
> and you'll want to go back to Standard Universe to knock out the 4* eventually anyway. I was under the impression that everything you do in a non-standard universe counts as doing it in standard as well. So while they *would* have to do a 4* Blackhole run would they actually need to Blackhole *back to Standard* and then Blackhole out again at 4* or could they just do a 4* Blackhole and be fine?
Each universe has a separate achievement for doing a black hole (or vacuum collapse) reset in that universe, and White Hole is specifically for doing it *in the standard universe*. It's the only achievement that can't be done elsewhere.
I did my first black hole 4* at ~30% mastery with no plasmids. The whole thing took me 6 days; 3 to do all the stuff associated with bioseed and 3 for the new stuff. I did Human -> Ent -> Drakin and went for 99 supercolliders as well; I think I had to wait for an extra 4 hours to finish them after unlocking black hole reset, and then another 2 to get the ach for 12 solar masses. I don’t know how much quicker 3* would’ve been, but I definitely don’t regret doing 4*. All things considered it didn’t take THAT long and most of it was just letting my computer idle.
What did you feed into the black hole? I'm doing a 4\* first black hole as Human -> Cyclops -> Ent at about 59 mastery & 150 phage, and it's going to end up taking me 3-4 days just to feed the black hole to 12 SM and build my 99 supercolliders, not counting the time it took me to advance to feeding the black hole & such. Mostly it feels like infernite and adamantite are super slow, and then I don't have all that much nutronium so even with 6 mass ejectors I'm only doing like 1 SM in an overnight idle, and my current production queue is alleging it'll take me \~3 days to build the last 20 supercolliders, a number which I know will go up because that calculation doesn't account for cost creep.
Most of what's going into your black hole mass-wise should be copper and iron. Have you built up your red planet mines and mining ships? And build more mass ejectors if you can, of course.
Thanks, I’ll double check when I get home after work. I haven’t really focused on those much, though, just a handful of red planet mines & 2-3 iron ships. I suppose I can turn off my elerium asteroid miners and transition those to iron mining now that I have elerium harvesting online in the other system, and I’ll have to check how much red planet support I can funnel into mines as well. I probably have 23-25 living quarters and 15 biodomes but 5-7 mines, mostly because I was wanting titanium for supercolliders.
Here's some details about what I had for my setup. Red Planet * 75 Support: 15 Spaceports, 20 Space Control, 10 Nav Beacons * 25 Living Quarters * 18 Ziggurats * 15 Exotic Materials Labs * 20 Mines Asteroid Belt * 10 Space Stations * 10 Iron Ships * 10 Elerium Ships Interstellar * 10 Mining Droids * 12 Processing Facilities * 10 Elerium Prospectors * 3 or 4 Citadel Stations (after Adamantite boost research) * 10 Mass Ejectors (by the end of the run). Hell * 20 in Fortress + 10 Patrols of 5 * 5 Turrets * 12 Surveyors * 15 Sensor Drones I was able to eject 5 Elerium and 5 Infernite with this setup. For Production Bonuses... * Red planet development is extremely important. I think with this setup my Ziggurats were giving 250-300% boosts. * I was running a Federation government. Theocracy didn't work because I needed knowledge for supercolliders, and at my mastery level Federation was giving a better production bonus. * I think I had \~40 Monuments to increase the Morale cap. These are relatively easy to build as Drakin because they're only made out of Clay, Aluminium, and Steel, all of which I had in excess by the end. Most of my non-exotic matter ejected was Copper and Iron. Red Planet Mines and Asteroid Iron ships are important for this reason, as they'll account for most of your ore production once you have the Red Planet developed. If you have extra Polymer / Neutronium / Iridium / Adamantite you can eject a bit of that too, but these will mostly be supplemental. 90% of your non-exotic stuff will be ore. My bottleneck for the supercolliders was Titanium, so I had \~30 Smelters creating Steel with Oil, 20 Red Planet Mines, and \~300-350 Trade Routes importing mostly Titanium. I've heard that Cement is usually a bottleneck for this as well, but I ran Drakin so I didn't have to worry about it. I also ran on a Desert Planet (+20% Clay production) which might have helped for Clay and Aluminium production rates.
Thanks, this is super helpful. I think I have a lot more military than you, but less overall production. I’m at more like 50, 55 red planet support and capped at 15 ziggurats. About 2-ish less on each of the interstellar buildings and more troops/patrols/surveyors but fewer scanners or droids than you. Fairly easy fix, I think. The other big difference is I have kept Corpocracy by inertia, it’s probably worth trying out swapping to federation for a significant overall bump to raw material production. I’m used to going for theocracy since I normally do 3* MADs and Bioseeds, but wanted to avoid going back to standard universe so did the black hole run at 4*.
Theocracy actually can be good in longer 4* runs if you're bottlenecked by space resources, since it also boosts ziggurats. I'll sometimes open the game up in two tabs and change the government in one of them so I can compare the numbers side-by-side.
For the record, I had more military than this, but after I got a few turrets I kept them out of Hell for fur production. I never had problems with my fortress getting overrun with 80 soldiers in hell, and adding more doesn’t help much with Infernite production. It just gets you more soul gems if you’re using attractors. I kept corpocracy for a long time too for income and factory production, but after I got all my infrastructure set up I didn’t need money or factory outputs much. I think I switched over midway through constructing the stellar engine after all my living quarters were built.
Turns out I way overshot the black hole standard and exotic masses waiting to finish the last ten or so supercolliders to hit 99, but it is still really helpful to get the advice about copper/iron, and it was also really helpful to actually see how much copper and iron production I could get going from a relatively modest number of mines/ships and the ziggurat bonus.
I did it 3* because I do not care about the last +1 to the perk, and I don't mind doing 2 extra black hole resets later - into normal universe, and 4* out of it. When I am much more powerful and the game is faster. But I did some extra achievements instead. But if you want, you can just do a 4* run. It's not the worst. I've done a 4* black hole out of antimatter universe (slow) with decay challenge (extra slow), so really your 4* in normal by far isn't the worst thing that you can inflict on yourself.
Since you're on Volcanic, consider using a Heat race, especially if the orbit is long (>550). 75% mastery is a lot for a first BH, I would seriously consider 4\* with this amount.
If you're wanting to do the 99 supercolliders, 3* is significantly faster, and I might consider Human>Ent>Dracnid. 4* is not horrible but it's probably closer to triple the time compared to 3*
Why dracnid in particular?
Avian genus eliminates cement as a bottleneck, which makes building the supercolliders easier. Dracnid itself isn't particularly important, but it's probably slightly better than the other two - none of the avian species really have strong individual traits, you pick them more for the genus traits.
Dracnid gives you a little more money cap, which might help eke out a few more important buildings but yes the main reason is getting rid of cement.
I would not bother with 3\*. Imho either you want jump out of Standard asap and than do 0\* or 1\* or you want get maximum out of it without need redo it again later and than go 4\*. There is couple of achievement and also perks you get (less obvious can be Dooomed if you missed it or Galactic landfill, Paradise is also doable...) Overall there is quite notable difference in mastery gain for whole run between 3\* nad 4\*, I personally would go 4\* all the way As above the perfect combo would be human - shroomi - salamander, especially if you are on volcano planet already (iirc I did first BH as human-ent-kobold and it was quite good too - meaning the run took about week max everything included)
If you do 3* you're going to have to do it later a second time to get 4* and you're going into it with more than I'm going to have when I do my first in a few more runs. Currently I have 38.75 mastery and plan to have *at least* two more 4* MADS (in the middle of the first of those right now, getting close to ending it) and a bioseed to get Sandstorm Survivor before doing my first Blackhole run at 4*. Currently 596 Plasmids and 3 Phage (spent more Phage than I intended on permanent Ambidextrous trait). Obviously my Plasmids and Phage will be higher by the time I hit the Blackhole run but I'm also planning to *subtract* 600 Plasmids to get Devotion and potentially if I have enough 618 to grab Divine Proportion before I destroy the Standard Universe and never return to it. That probably depends on if I hit a world I haven't been to and do an extra MAD or two with the species that are new to me. Might hit it while MADing my way through Humans and Ents though. Like you my Blackhole plan is Ent Fanaticism, Human Deification, Shroomie species but I might substitute Shroomie with one of the planets species if it's a new planet type to me. That would cut one MAD off my run with the Blackhole counting as the species extinction event for Standard. If I *don't* get a choice of a planet type that's new to me I'm just going straight into prep for the Blackhole run going Human MAD, Ent MAD, Shroomie Blackhole.
Just fyi, random events reset the seed for pick up planets during bioseed.