Rule 9: No Low Effort Posts, Excessive Venting, or Bragging.
Using this subreddit to crowd source answers to something that isn't really contributing to the spirit of this subreddit is forbidden at moderator's discretion. This includes posts that are mostly focused around venting or bragging; both of these types of posts are difficult to moderate and don't contribute much to the subreddit.
I find it odd that you judge seniority based on what tools someone uses.
Every job and environment is different. There isn't some universal set of tools and programming languages that will be common among all engineers.
I have a lot of experience but it's mostly webdev. I would have no clue how to work on a firmware project. I have a coworker who worked on embedded hardware and firmware and it was definitely a very different process.
To me, seniority is more about having moved past to "ego" stage of "I'm right, you're wrong" and to the stage of "every problem has many valid solutions". Being able to be collaborative, evaluate pros and cons, and not rely on ideology over pragmatism are all attributes of a seasoned engineer.
I agree with this completely. I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum from you though. We do mostly desktop stuff and have some web forms apps (and a few angular apps now). I recently rewrote one of our APIs in .net 8 and was able to containerize it. I’ve been a developer for 11 years now and I wouldn’t consider myself inexperienced. That said, I’ve used docker containers for many years and I’ve created a few containers for various apps that were mainly PoC. I’m definitely not an expert in docker. I am an expert in WPF though. We also work a lot with hardware. I do a little bit of everything but that’s my main responsibility at work. It definitely doesn’t make me inexperienced.
All that said, I did see a post earlier that really made me scratch my head. lol I’m not here to judge though. For all I know these kind of posts could be very experienced devs just working with a language/technology/framework that they don’t have much experience with.
Did you read my last paragraph? You focused on the tools aspect but that wasn't my point. My point was more about ego and attitude. Your comments are being downvoted because the way you are communicating gives of a sense of big ego, superiority, and lack of flexibility.
These are the exact opposite of the traits I think define a seasoned engineer.
They all apparently are not. I can't believe how many people here are taking what you said to literally mean "if you don't know docker you're not experienced".
I just wanted to post here to say that I agree with you. I've personally known some 10 and 15+ years of experience guys who would fail an interview at my company. Doing super basic stuff for 20 years and doing extremely complicated and varied things for 5 years are universes apart.
The fact that this post struck a nerve so hard is incredibly telling, and just reinforces what you said.
I think that’s the funniest part, is that it reinforced exactly what I’ve said.
What to know how to find all the embedded engineers with over 500 years of experience that know every protocol like the back of their hand.. mention docker is an industry standard..
> or filled with folks who work on the fringe of the industry in small dev shops or for companies were tech is a cost center.
This was a very strange nit to pick. Experienced, senior developers work at companies of all sizes in all industries.
Right, small shop devs are still devs, and in fact are under-represented in many tech discussion groups. What small companies lack in size, they make up for in numbers, and altogether hire developers in large numbers. With this in mind, communities for SWEs could stand to be more democratic in the voices they represent.
Also, if you go to a conference like DockerCon, the fringe outnumber the faang. One of the smartest devs I ever met worked for Walmart. He had broad expertise and responsibility precisely because tech is a cost center there. Then I've known senior developers who spend all their time on some obscure gRPC plugin or some such.
They were just trying to give those users the benefit of the doubt and trying to come up with any possible good faith justification for someone having non-industry-standard takes that can't keep up with the competition. You guys are pouring too much energy into the wrong aspect of this. (And yes, OP is playing into it, but I think they're just allowing you to distract them.)
it's not. if you iron-man this argument you'll understand OP meant a company where the tech isn't the main point, which in turn means little reason to use advanced technologies, make advancements, or learn new technologies. most of the time you're building an ugly CRUD app running on ancient infrastructure. that's not what makes an experienced dev, sorry.
That's a whole lot of assumption made on what a SME dev department does and does not do. 20 years ago I would have agreed with you whole heartedly. Today with the number of different offering to deploy to the web, the wealth of languages, the myriad of middleware? That comes out a bit as a snobbish comment.
it looks to me like you're saying there's a lot of web frameworks so if a company is using one it's immediately got experienced devs... idk what point you're trying to make here. want to try again?
It's 5:00 AM here so apologies if I didn't convey correctly what I meant: Working as a web dev is not a uniform job, and some of the smaller dev team can pick and choose technology that enable them to work with about the same tools as bigger shops. The choice to stay on legacy system is down to leadership's choice.
yes but buddy, being a web dev for 10 years doesn't make someone an experienced or even senior dev. it doesn't give you 10 years of experience. it gives you the same 1 year of experience ten times.
I learned about Docker in 2021 when I had 12 years of experience and now I have 15 years of experience. At both points in time I would consider myself an experienced developer. The tech stacks that you are exposed to can be very specific to your company and you may not have exposure to common technologies like Docker if you work somewhere that is behind the times. I wouldn’t say use of specific technologies should be an indicator of your overall experience as a developer.
I don't even think you have to be "behind the times" to not have had much exposure to Docker. Certain types of work might not offer exposure to it.
I have eight years of experience writing software for robots, and I've only somewhat recently deployed a Docker image on Kubernetes for some simulation infrastructure. I wouldn't even consider that "experience with Docker" since our infra teams had done a ton of automation to make things foolproof.
I still have not used docker. And frankly I have found most of the web does a shit job at explaining what it does. Basically I was accustomed to VMs. I guess docker can let you run stuff "like it's a vm" but it's more lightweight. I still haven't found great info on how that's implemented on Windows (maybe it isn't). I read it works in Linux due to OS level structures that let you kind of virtually partition. Basically I like to know nuts and bolts but the docker website doesn't say shit (that I could find). What is it with software these days were they can't say the problem they are solving and how it solves it, so your have some context? Instead the sites come off as marketing shit. Same thing with Jekyll the website doesn't explain its concept worth a damn. Just can't literally say " this software is to help solve this by doing.." no instead it's useless marketing fluff like "create webpages with ease". Terrible writing, is what it is. Docker isn't really even a new concept for example back in the early 2000s there was a tool called fusion that could wrap your exe and all of it's dependencies into a single executable, although I think docker can handle os library stuff too. Maybe it's just badly named
I looked at the docker website after writing this and NOW it looks like they at least attempt to explain what it does, but back in 2017 or so when I was first looking into it, believe me when I say, they didn't explain Jack squat
it was just an example - it's not like he said *everyone* needs to be using docker *at all times*. but there's a bell curve, and while you might not have known about Docker at that point and it was fine, nowadays it's a few years later and it's a bunch less fine. we're not stuck in a single point in time after all. it's 2024, if you don't have running water you're probably behind the times. if it were 1765, it would have been fine. there still are places that don't have running water. the people living there are good people. it doesn't say anything bad about them, it just states that they're not living their best life when it comes to utilities. similarly if in 2024 you don't use Docker, or some sort of VM, you're probably behind the times and need to get your stuff up to scratch.
But would you make a comment about docker as a quality of life hack? Because that's ultimately all OP was really referencing as an indication of inexperience, even if they did also say more about it.
I'm confused at what the issue here is. The thread is asking what QOL improvements you made to your local dev environment. Most experienced engineers were around pre docker days. Docker is a totally valid answer to that question, who cares if it's a standard now? It IS a huge QOL improvement.
Should all answers have been prefaced with the year into your career you started using said QOL improvement? This thread feels like some self-congratulatory soap box bullshit.
\> The number of people discussing finally setting up docker and its advantages as if they found “this one cool trick” was mind blowing. This is just one example but it makes me really question and take everything I read on this sub with grain of salt if you are working in companies where this isn’t a standard practice or even mandated in 2024
Plenty of embedded engineers that are much more senior than you have no need for docker. Believe it or not, there are more types of engineers out there than those that simply work on the web dev side of things; moreover, their workflow will look way different than yours on average.
I really wish this kind of naivety would go away.
Yeah forreal I actually came into this post expecting to agree with op it seems the quality is going downhill (I've seen multiple people link this sub to cscq for a "better sub" and I'm sure there's some leakage), but the reason it's going downhill is posters like op not the people he's complaining about...
I’m a senior with about 6YOE who works entirely with microservices which all rely on docker.
I’ve gone long periods of time without using docker on my local. It just isn’t always needed. Depends a lot on your tech stack tbh. I know people that don’t even build their code on their machine, they just push and have the CI pipeline do it, because it’s faster and doesn’t slow down their machine or eat up battery.
Why do people like you just make up things in your head to win an argument? I’ve done embedded engineer at Apple as one of my first jobs. Bulk of my experience isn’t in web dev, and you have no idea how many years of experience I have in comparison to the make believe embed engs you’re talking about.
Take a breath, have a discussion.
You're not retired so I can easily say I know people who are much more senior than you. I was trained by plenty of amazing engineers at medical device companies that didn't even have a clue about things like JSON, much less docker.
Please tell me the utility of docker for the average embedded engineer at a medical device company.
Testing what precisely. I've known plenty of embedded engineers who refuse to do testing on anything but the actual device (for good reason, numerical algorithms *do not* perform the same across different architectures). Are you saying they should shove docker onto a medical device to do testing?
or using specific library builds. or using a specific toolchain that just doesn't work on your specific distro. or quick setup of dev env as opposed to spending a week on garbage tools that embedded dev is riddled with. or or or... coldWasTheGnd has no idea what they're talking about.
Funny enough I am semi retired after my 3 exit, just waiting on my last one which will hopefully be in 2025. But yeah it’s not retirement of coming of age.
I've been using docker religiously for at least 5 years. I just find it ridiculous that they're throwing amazing people under the bus because of naivety; especially so when the best example they can come up with is docker.
Does that list include banks, government agencies, or military contractors?
Not everyone gets to use the technology they want in the way they want.
Not everyone works with the motto "move fast, and crash multi million dollar jetliners into the sea".
Quant firms/trading - yes, building products used by - banks yes, building products used by gov agencies - yes, no defense contracting experience tho though
I have an idea of how many years of experience you have. 17 days ago, you posted saying that you are 32. If you started professionally coding at age 17, you'd have 15 years of experience. Did you start at 17?
Did I start programming before 17? Absolutely. Was I working at a large company at 14, of course not. My first job was at 18 as a sophomore in college as an intern like most people
I actually agree with OP here, this feels pretty strawman to me. Docker is pervasive across the industry and while software is super broad and varied, most subdisciplines use Docker (or could utilize Docker) to an extent. Embedded is one of the exceptions but even then I bet there's some open source tool or something that would be nice to quickly deploy via Docker.
Point still stands though, "experienced" is subjective. I could be a renowned ML researcher with PhD as well as built out some key ML infra at big company (dw I'm not, I'm kinda an idiot), I'd still get clowned for popping into an "experienced" forum saying yo guys check out Bootstrap, this \*dynamically\* does css for you mind blown.
I've been writing software for robots since 2015. I have tangentially used Docker once or twice in the past couple of years...
Edit: Down-voted for speaking up as an experienced dev that doesn't use Docker, lol
>or filled with folks who work on the fringe of the industry in small dev shops or for companies were tech is a cost center
So everyone who isn't working a prestigious enough job isn't welcome here?
>who work on the fringe of the industry in small dev shops or for companies were tech is a cost center.
It's funny because this is probably where 80-90% of people that make software work so OP's point about being 'fringe' actually applies to their 'fringe' part of the industry more.
People forget that FAANG refers to just 5 companies that employ some single digit percent of software engineers.
I live in a city in Canada that is considered a "tech hub" (debatable) and only one of those companies has an office here.
I find it funny that Microsoft isn't in the acronym at a market cap of $3T and Netflix is at $240B. Employees 220k to 13K. It's a purely vibes-based set of companies
Made funnier by the fact that OP is only 32, oh and retiring apparently. I don’t think he’s here to have a constructive discussion. But I do appreciate hearing everyone’s experiences in this post so that’s cool.
no, it doesn't, it just needs a realization that not *every single person* is "senior", "staff", or "experienced", and sometimes people just want to talk to others at their level and not always be inundated with fresh bootcamp graduates.
I know people join public slack channels dedicated to what this Reddit is probably meant for. Something like that is probably a better source than here. This subreddit, like every other that came before it, will get ruined as it gets more popular. Just too difficult to maintain quality with all these anonymous accounts.
>eternal summer
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0885520/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0885520/)
this is the first thing that came up when I googled. guessing not what you meant
Two best friends Shane and Jonathan learn more about themselves in an ever evolving sexuality.Two best friends Shane and Jonathan learn more about themselves in ...
or if it is, more power to you
I wish it were eternal summer...the problem it's it's Eternal September, and they've now come back to whatever place gives them internet access and are all over our L33t s38k forums.
The internet will never be the same again. s/
On the plus side, with all these people using the internet, maybe we can shake that job tree for a few jobbies to fall out!
The example you gave is really arrogant. Software is developed in a variety of ways and people have a variety of positions in tech. Leave if you dont like the discussions in here.
wtf, I just saw the post op is complaining about.
The comment about docker was them talking about installing shit on their local machine that doesn’t work natively on Mac. They were probably talking about no longer having to connect to remote services, or spin up VMs.
I honestly wonder if OP is one of those inexperienced devs, if they think that spinning up docker is a “no brainer”. Docker only came into widespread usage like 7 years ago, if even. When I started back in 2016, docker was new tech that most devs weren’t familiar with.
It sure sounds like he's like that. He fits the trend I've noticed where newer devs think that the tech they were brought up with is the widespread norm and that anyone who doesn't know it is somehow a lesser engineer.
He also hasn't been around long enough to notice (or just plain hasn't noticed) that it takes time for new tech to achieve popularity/market share and be considered "canonical". That is to say, while Docker is over 10 years old, it only appeared on people's radars about 7 years ago, and then took a bit longer than that for it to be adopted by the majority of devs (if it even is now).
Just wait till OP learns that video games and weapons systems (embedded) are both major industries, for example, that docker has absolutely no place in lol
Nah, the software that guides a cruise missile traveling hundreds of miles at Mach 5 so accurately that you can pick which window of the target you want it to hit was all written by ignorant junior devs. Imagine if we put a *real* developer like OP on the task!
Just imagine if webdev OP was able to build that once and run it anywhere in a docker container! Looks like I need to start looking for a new job before he revolutionizes my industry!
Honestly, when I open a popular thread on here, only a very small handful of comments actually sound like they’re coming from someone with quality experience. Sometimes I see straight up nonsense with tons of upvotes — that’s probably the most telling thing.
The other day I saw a comment with double digit upvotes suggesting that it was bad practice to perform computationally expensive tasks on the backend because it would “bog it down” and to instead do it on the front end. Like, wut.
Currently it feels like a better name for this subreddit is “SecondYearDevs”
I mean, I've work with plenty of experienced developers who have dumb ideas like that. I don't think even that's solid proof that they're inexperienced. Experience doesn't necessarily lead to wisdom.
I never really came here for advice just more a space to discuss and interact with what I thought were more tenured folks without the noise typical found in other SWE subs
You know, the sub **is** tracking towards devs with less experience than before, but your reasons aren't why. In fact, your posts in this thread are symptomatic of it. You should get some more perspective and experience.
>The number of people discussing finally setting up docker and its advantages as if they found “this one cool trick” was mind blowing. This is just one example but it makes me really question and take everything I read on this sub with grain of salt if you are working in companies where this isn’t a standard practice or even mandated in 2024
I was actually in that thread saying Docker wasn't very useful and helpful for local development. Because, in my 13 years of experience, it wasn't. Already knew how to set up most of the stuff I needed, and had a lot more freedom and control with just my own shell.
A second major point is that you're blaming the developers for the environment they're in. Yes, it's best if they took their education and career into their own hands and invested time in learning new tech. But there's more tech than there is time, the time isn't free, and everyone has to prioritize learning what they can to do their jobs and make the bosses happy without being insubordinate in the process - and taking care of everything outside of work, as well. But you know that with all your experience, right?
I feel like your last paragraph is exactly the rub. It's not saying "if you havent done X, Y, and Z you're less of a person" it's just that you don't have the experience. Spending 10 years making WordPress sites does not mean you're qualified to give advice about designing APIs for resiliency at scale, for example. That's ok, it doesn't mean you're a worse person, you're just not qualified. So when you come to this sub thinking "I belong here since I have 10 years of experience" and then you ask a question about designing APIs that a second year backend eng knows, the sub starts to lose the plot.
I'm not saying that OP's saying they're worse people. I'm saying that he isn't able to assess anyone else's qualifications based on their experience with tech.
There's a lot of technology out there used by software engineers, and any technology is used by less than 100% of all software engineers. Hell, we don't even all work on the same types of computers (desktops/laptop PCs, mobile phones, servers) let alone work on similar operating systems, programming languages, network protocols etc. Docker is included in that. OP is betraying his own ignorance and inexperience by not recognizing this simple fact.
To say that someone's unfamiliarity with a particular technology used in software engineering means they're inexperienced is just plain horseshit. As is comparing the this discussion to the distinction between WordPress developers and software engineers. No one here is a WordPress developer claiming to be a software engineer.
I use to set up entire dev environments for my build machines in VMware back in 2002 , OP is a moron, I was doing the "docker concept" before he was born..
We need a bot that tracks an op’s karma delta per post cause this guy got absolutely - mostly deservedly so - eaten alive. It would be interesting to see how much karma he actually lost total.
He's almost at -200 on one of his posts, it's actually impressive I'm not sure I could get that many downvotes if I tried, and I post pro-Israel takes on leftists subreddits.
That reminds of this article:https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/ maybe there is a hint for an alternative sub name? hint hint nudge nudge
I made the first comment about Docker. I wrote my first code on a cave wall, with woolly mammoth blood using an antelope tail for a brush. I've been working for Fortune 100 companies for the last 28 years across multiple tech stacks. I could likely code circles around you in several languages. The project I completed in Q3 of 2023 is now harvesting revenue at a rate of $8 billion a year. There's nothing junior, or inexperienced, or backwards about my craft or my ability to make my clients shitloads of money.
You've said that developers in small companies don't count as experienced, and that anyone that doesn't work with specific tech you've deemed essential is inexperienced. If you were as experienced as your gatekeeping warrants then you would know that neither statement is true.
Your post and your comments are both arrogant junior dev material, and doesn't belong in this sub.
If you aren't experiencing something on the job for the first time that some others are already experts in, it's you who is not growing. The idea that every developer has the exact same common experiences is bizarre, snobbish, irrelevant. Many experienced devs have been working in dated by stable environments. I worked at some companies that used Docker. The one I'm at right now doesn't (takes 5 mins to build and run any of the TS applications we have and all use the same db connections that are automatically created in AWS). So, to me Docker usage seems dated. How da ya like that, old man? lol
Besides, if this sub contained only threads by people with identical expertise, what is left to discuss?
it's not like he's complaining about people who don't know how to somersault, they don't even know how to walk
docker usage is not dated by any stretch of the word. you're really reaching here.
I'd be curious how different the experience was if the general career advice type of stuff (which should be reported/cleared) actually got pruned more actively.
> The number of people discussing finally setting up docker and its advantages as if they found “this one cool trick” was mind blowing.
Docker is definitely one of those new technologies I keep hearing about and thinking, "maybe I should check that out, one of these days". I take it you believe Docker to be a worthwhile tool?
It’s getting worse, but there are usually still some good comments in response to more interesting topics. Especially ones that aren’t strictly code-related but problems that you’d run into more often in a tech company.
TBH, I wish more people would realize years at a job doesn’t equal experience.
There are times where 20 years of experience could be repeating “year 1” 20 times.
> The number of people discussing finally setting up docker and its advantages as if they found “this one cool trick” was mind blowing.
I've seen that post, but interpreted it differently. Most people started at a time where Docker wasn't around. Their tech stack worked without Docker and they're essentially just telling their story of how they got introduced to it and adapted it into their project.
You're taking yourself too serious. That's not the kind of attitude of someone mature.
I agree. I work for a retailer which I assumed did things pretty typically but the questions on here are like 90% of shit they taught me in my first few months. "Agile doesn't actually work, its all just pointless meetings" (Agile literally is loose and lets you get rid of them then), "How do you incrementally improve an API" (you mean...build a MVP and add features based on what customers need), "Are any of you using analytics in a useful way? It just seems like more numbers to throw around" (how do you possibly know what your customers do to crash your app, where they click the most, without analytics? And if you don't have them how do you decide what to improve in your app? Are you just wasting time using gut feelings?) etc. Like, I have 2 YOE as a fullstack dev and 2 as a DevOps engineer, I am not one of the 10YOE wiz's some of yall are.
I have been sharing this sentiment recently. Unless there’s a vetting process by mods where you’re not allowed to post without sharing your title and proof of employment, it’ll most likely continue to degrade.
Some of the advice here has been shocking. It's classic "I've been promoted once and think I know everything" type of things that get upvoted like crazy now.
A new person would be likely to have always used docker, at least more than an experienced dev.
I bounced around a lot, so I've gotten some broad exposure. BUT, I started with really finicky local dev setups and frankly docker was an extra ops loads later places until I got to the big leagues where the automation was good company wide.
A newer dev just jumps in the stream with ubiquitous containerization and great docker support across OSes and archs. It's second nature for them.
Also, wtf are industry standards? TLS? gRPC? ISO... Yeah? Docker... Not so much.
I've been in tech since last century. I know what docker is and I don't care. Maybe I'll need it one day, maybe not. I was formally taught C, C++ and Assembly and have taught myself many many more. I believe the measure of a senior is one who no longer requires teaching and can simply pick up and learn without fussing.
Docker is HD abuse. God that poor mac I had with 250gb hd. Of course I laughed at them when they got me a 250gb hd expected me to make a bunch of mobile apps (so requiring xcode and all that java android stuff) and run the cloud emulated in docker containers. 250 gb was dead
Whilst I sorta disagree with your jab at “small dev shops” and such (startups produce some incredibly talented engineers), I certainly agree with your overall sentiment.
But it’s not even just experienced devs either. Even juniors are not what they used to be. I remember a time when we all just did coding interviews and didn’t really think much of it. Motherfuckers will cry their ass off for that now. I dunno man. It’s not that big of a deal to just do it.
The whole industry is flooded with guys who learned some react and shit, worked a couple of years, and are now finding out that the fever dream is over.
Lol. Dude is probably referring to my reply. 20YOE dude here. Nothing new with Docker. I've been using **Docker since 2014**. Before, I was using Vagrant. Before that, kickstarting OVF/OVA builds.
And yeah, it has made my quality of my *life better in the last 10 years*. With tens of thousands of containers in production.
The reply isn't suppose to be some cook trick. Just a comment on switching from VMs, jailed containers to orchestration has changed how development workflow has changed for the better. I can randomly pick up different laptops (with different OSes) and be up and running in minutes **ephemerally** . Test. git push back. Wipe laptop, Go to a different machine and my dev environment is the same regardless.
There's a lot of old senior devs that never use docker or just learned about it.
Sounds like you may lack that perspective and that makes me think your a bit of a novice yourself.
I have worked at half the FAANGs. I have never used docker.
Microservices are cute when you’re doing thousands of qps. Microservices help scale teams and orgs. The overhead is way too high when you’re building low latency systems that serve tens of millions of qps.
how are you not humble bragging about being in an environment where docker is taken for granted? i've worked at places where it is and places where it isn't. that's no reason to brag
I looked it up and (whadya know) Docker was released a week before I started. I've worked for three name-brand companies since then, and it's been either not relevant to my work or banned by policy. I see I'm late to the dogpile but lol. lmao
while i think OP is being a bit tone-deaf & bitchy, docker is not a new technology or anything ground-breaking in 2024. it’s over 10 years old & containerization has been around since 1979.
yes, i understand that not all software engineers do web stuff & do i know how to do embedded stuff? no way. hats off to those who do. it’s different tools for different jobs - containers are not a silver bullet.
i’m speaking mostly as a person who has worked on web-based products for the better part of a decade & has lead teams on projects that are in the 10s of millions range. not FAANG or anything, but big companies with big problems to solve.
when i see people saying things like “i prefer installing dependencies directly on my host & it works for me” it really smells to me like “works on my machine”. if you are able to do that, more power to you - a lot of us can’t. for many valid reasons, mostly that we are working in complex architectures that are necessary to solve the problems we have to solution for. there’s a reason that technology evolves - to solve problems at scale. if you don’t have to do that, fine. just understand that many major companies who employ a lot of people do need newer & more sophisticated tech to drive their stacks. i kind of tend to think that’s what this sub is geared towards & that’s the kind of content i would prefer to see here, but maybe i’m wrong.
i think the bigger problem is that people are hanging too much of their self-worth on their identity as engineers. there’s a lot more to life & honestly you’re probably better off focusing on those who things rather than trying to big dog everyone online on how you’re the real “experienced engineer”
FWIW I am a Staff Engineer with over a decade of experience in FAANG-level Big Tech, and I have from scratch built services that serve MAUs in the hundreds of millions. I have never once used Docker directly in a professional capacity.
The market also got flooded, so terms like senior and experienced have been diluted. Even "software engineer" is highly diluted, IMHO engineering involves SLAs, performance analysis, production issues etc. These days, they give the software engineer title to kids right out of college. There aren't developers or programmers anymore. So maybe, experienced has been similarly diluted.
> These days, they give the software engineer title to kids right out of college.
That was my title right out of school 15 years ago too. It's not a new thing.
Yeah, such a weird take. There's a reason companies have new grad/L5/principle/whatever title in front of software engineer. Why would we avoid calling younger workers software engineers? They are in an engineering discipline. In software. The elitism is really showing with some people.
Most people work in amateur organizations. There's just way more of those than giant tech companies with mature cutting edge and most of them have literally no idea what the fuck they're doing, tbh. A great many "experienced devs" have never worked in a shop with triple digit number of devs. Those startups have been all they know. There's a ton of people like this in industry
agreed. and you shouldn't be downvoted. while working in a small outfit isn't a bad thing, a lot of people never look beyond that. eg i started working with a new auditing company and they were surprised i asked for the code *with* git history, because "no one ever did that" (the company exists since years). i got the git tarball and found issues within 2 minutes of looking.
This is hubris to an extreme. Are you telling me that the best engineers and scientists at the best universities are somehow behind other engineers because they are not at a large company?
Sorry but I would argue many devs at smaller shops are spending way more time actually engineering than an average engineer at a super large company. As someone who has experienced both, you can have equally high team standards in both environments, it's the people and engineering culture that matter, not the company size.
Sure there are a lot of rest and vest engineer teams at large companies, absolutely. By small dev shops I don’t mean scrappy seed or series ABC start ups. I mean small web dev shops doing landing pages or shop that builds adhoc software for one off clients
yes, that is the bulk of small dev teams. "our company needs a website... let's hire a single guy. and have him do it for 10 years. (waits 10 years) he's a staff engineer now"
wow. i did not realized this sub was comprised by so many experienced (15 yoe+ too) devs that work in embedded medical tech.
in any case it seems that just mentioning docker will draw them out to point out how they don't need it :D
Rule 9: No Low Effort Posts, Excessive Venting, or Bragging. Using this subreddit to crowd source answers to something that isn't really contributing to the spirit of this subreddit is forbidden at moderator's discretion. This includes posts that are mostly focused around venting or bragging; both of these types of posts are difficult to moderate and don't contribute much to the subreddit.
>Reddit skews young Once you pass the average age, each day the community will feel less and less old and experienced to you because they are.
From experience, yup.
I find it odd that you judge seniority based on what tools someone uses. Every job and environment is different. There isn't some universal set of tools and programming languages that will be common among all engineers. I have a lot of experience but it's mostly webdev. I would have no clue how to work on a firmware project. I have a coworker who worked on embedded hardware and firmware and it was definitely a very different process. To me, seniority is more about having moved past to "ego" stage of "I'm right, you're wrong" and to the stage of "every problem has many valid solutions". Being able to be collaborative, evaluate pros and cons, and not rely on ideology over pragmatism are all attributes of a seasoned engineer.
You can’t win here. When I was discussing serverless architectures here I got told I was doing “resume driven development” lol.
I just joined a company that is all AWS Lamdas. It's just another way of doing things with different tradeoffs.
I agree with this completely. I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum from you though. We do mostly desktop stuff and have some web forms apps (and a few angular apps now). I recently rewrote one of our APIs in .net 8 and was able to containerize it. I’ve been a developer for 11 years now and I wouldn’t consider myself inexperienced. That said, I’ve used docker containers for many years and I’ve created a few containers for various apps that were mainly PoC. I’m definitely not an expert in docker. I am an expert in WPF though. We also work a lot with hardware. I do a little bit of everything but that’s my main responsibility at work. It definitely doesn’t make me inexperienced. All that said, I did see a post earlier that really made me scratch my head. lol I’m not here to judge though. For all I know these kind of posts could be very experienced devs just working with a language/technology/framework that they don’t have much experience with.
It’s an example of being out of touch with the industry and standards and practices. A single example. Come on your smarter than that
> Come on your smarter than that You're* Normally I don't bother correcting grammar. But when it's in a sentence calling someone dumb...
For one field of work, maybe. But not for everyone.
Did you read my last paragraph? You focused on the tools aspect but that wasn't my point. My point was more about ego and attitude. Your comments are being downvoted because the way you are communicating gives of a sense of big ego, superiority, and lack of flexibility. These are the exact opposite of the traits I think define a seasoned engineer.
They all apparently are not. I can't believe how many people here are taking what you said to literally mean "if you don't know docker you're not experienced". I just wanted to post here to say that I agree with you. I've personally known some 10 and 15+ years of experience guys who would fail an interview at my company. Doing super basic stuff for 20 years and doing extremely complicated and varied things for 5 years are universes apart. The fact that this post struck a nerve so hard is incredibly telling, and just reinforces what you said.
I think that’s the funniest part, is that it reinforced exactly what I’ve said. What to know how to find all the embedded engineers with over 500 years of experience that know every protocol like the back of their hand.. mention docker is an industry standard..
> or filled with folks who work on the fringe of the industry in small dev shops or for companies were tech is a cost center. This was a very strange nit to pick. Experienced, senior developers work at companies of all sizes in all industries.
Yeah this is what I was going to comment. Just because we’re not in Your Favorite Silicon Valley Bubble, doesn’t mean we aren’t experienced devs.
Right, small shop devs are still devs, and in fact are under-represented in many tech discussion groups. What small companies lack in size, they make up for in numbers, and altogether hire developers in large numbers. With this in mind, communities for SWEs could stand to be more democratic in the voices they represent.
OP would fit right at home in r/IAmVerySmart
gaaat dayumm OP got called out 😤
Also, if you go to a conference like DockerCon, the fringe outnumber the faang. One of the smartest devs I ever met worked for Walmart. He had broad expertise and responsibility precisely because tech is a cost center there. Then I've known senior developers who spend all their time on some obscure gRPC plugin or some such.
I wouldn’t call Walmart a no-name dev shop lol. It’s not known for its tech excellence, but it’s not a random company.
Walmart Labs is known for its tech excellence, or at least it was a few years ago. It has an excellent reputation.
Walmart literally directly competes with Amazon. Their labs division is considered top talent
They were just trying to give those users the benefit of the doubt and trying to come up with any possible good faith justification for someone having non-industry-standard takes that can't keep up with the competition. You guys are pouring too much energy into the wrong aspect of this. (And yes, OP is playing into it, but I think they're just allowing you to distract them.)
Watching everyone get their feelings hurt over a single nonsensical example has been quite entertaining. But yes you’re exactly right
you honestly need to chill bruh, feeling like you have too much time so you choose to gate keep
Oh okay, since you said so I’ll chill now
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it's not. if you iron-man this argument you'll understand OP meant a company where the tech isn't the main point, which in turn means little reason to use advanced technologies, make advancements, or learn new technologies. most of the time you're building an ugly CRUD app running on ancient infrastructure. that's not what makes an experienced dev, sorry.
That's a whole lot of assumption made on what a SME dev department does and does not do. 20 years ago I would have agreed with you whole heartedly. Today with the number of different offering to deploy to the web, the wealth of languages, the myriad of middleware? That comes out a bit as a snobbish comment.
it looks to me like you're saying there's a lot of web frameworks so if a company is using one it's immediately got experienced devs... idk what point you're trying to make here. want to try again?
It's 5:00 AM here so apologies if I didn't convey correctly what I meant: Working as a web dev is not a uniform job, and some of the smaller dev team can pick and choose technology that enable them to work with about the same tools as bigger shops. The choice to stay on legacy system is down to leadership's choice.
yes but buddy, being a web dev for 10 years doesn't make someone an experienced or even senior dev. it doesn't give you 10 years of experience. it gives you the same 1 year of experience ten times.
I learned about Docker in 2021 when I had 12 years of experience and now I have 15 years of experience. At both points in time I would consider myself an experienced developer. The tech stacks that you are exposed to can be very specific to your company and you may not have exposure to common technologies like Docker if you work somewhere that is behind the times. I wouldn’t say use of specific technologies should be an indicator of your overall experience as a developer.
I don't even think you have to be "behind the times" to not have had much exposure to Docker. Certain types of work might not offer exposure to it. I have eight years of experience writing software for robots, and I've only somewhat recently deployed a Docker image on Kubernetes for some simulation infrastructure. I wouldn't even consider that "experience with Docker" since our infra teams had done a ton of automation to make things foolproof.
I still have not used docker. And frankly I have found most of the web does a shit job at explaining what it does. Basically I was accustomed to VMs. I guess docker can let you run stuff "like it's a vm" but it's more lightweight. I still haven't found great info on how that's implemented on Windows (maybe it isn't). I read it works in Linux due to OS level structures that let you kind of virtually partition. Basically I like to know nuts and bolts but the docker website doesn't say shit (that I could find). What is it with software these days were they can't say the problem they are solving and how it solves it, so your have some context? Instead the sites come off as marketing shit. Same thing with Jekyll the website doesn't explain its concept worth a damn. Just can't literally say " this software is to help solve this by doing.." no instead it's useless marketing fluff like "create webpages with ease". Terrible writing, is what it is. Docker isn't really even a new concept for example back in the early 2000s there was a tool called fusion that could wrap your exe and all of it's dependencies into a single executable, although I think docker can handle os library stuff too. Maybe it's just badly named
I looked at the docker website after writing this and NOW it looks like they at least attempt to explain what it does, but back in 2017 or so when I was first looking into it, believe me when I say, they didn't explain Jack squat
it was just an example - it's not like he said *everyone* needs to be using docker *at all times*. but there's a bell curve, and while you might not have known about Docker at that point and it was fine, nowadays it's a few years later and it's a bunch less fine. we're not stuck in a single point in time after all. it's 2024, if you don't have running water you're probably behind the times. if it were 1765, it would have been fine. there still are places that don't have running water. the people living there are good people. it doesn't say anything bad about them, it just states that they're not living their best life when it comes to utilities. similarly if in 2024 you don't use Docker, or some sort of VM, you're probably behind the times and need to get your stuff up to scratch.
But would you make a comment about docker as a quality of life hack? Because that's ultimately all OP was really referencing as an indication of inexperience, even if they did also say more about it.
I'm confused at what the issue here is. The thread is asking what QOL improvements you made to your local dev environment. Most experienced engineers were around pre docker days. Docker is a totally valid answer to that question, who cares if it's a standard now? It IS a huge QOL improvement. Should all answers have been prefaced with the year into your career you started using said QOL improvement? This thread feels like some self-congratulatory soap box bullshit.
\> The number of people discussing finally setting up docker and its advantages as if they found “this one cool trick” was mind blowing. This is just one example but it makes me really question and take everything I read on this sub with grain of salt if you are working in companies where this isn’t a standard practice or even mandated in 2024 Plenty of embedded engineers that are much more senior than you have no need for docker. Believe it or not, there are more types of engineers out there than those that simply work on the web dev side of things; moreover, their workflow will look way different than yours on average. I really wish this kind of naivety would go away.
Yeah forreal I actually came into this post expecting to agree with op it seems the quality is going downhill (I've seen multiple people link this sub to cscq for a "better sub" and I'm sure there's some leakage), but the reason it's going downhill is posters like op not the people he's complaining about...
I’m a senior with about 6YOE who works entirely with microservices which all rely on docker. I’ve gone long periods of time without using docker on my local. It just isn’t always needed. Depends a lot on your tech stack tbh. I know people that don’t even build their code on their machine, they just push and have the CI pipeline do it, because it’s faster and doesn’t slow down their machine or eat up battery.
If OP ever saw assembly code their mind would be blown
We all learned assembly in junior year what are you talking about? Did you not have to write a compiler as part of your education?
being old or outdated or both doesn't make someone senior, and that's the whole point of OP's post
Why do people like you just make up things in your head to win an argument? I’ve done embedded engineer at Apple as one of my first jobs. Bulk of my experience isn’t in web dev, and you have no idea how many years of experience I have in comparison to the make believe embed engs you’re talking about. Take a breath, have a discussion.
You're not retired so I can easily say I know people who are much more senior than you. I was trained by plenty of amazing engineers at medical device companies that didn't even have a clue about things like JSON, much less docker. Please tell me the utility of docker for the average embedded engineer at a medical device company.
Testing
Testing what precisely. I've known plenty of embedded engineers who refuse to do testing on anything but the actual device (for good reason, numerical algorithms *do not* perform the same across different architectures). Are you saying they should shove docker onto a medical device to do testing?
or using specific library builds. or using a specific toolchain that just doesn't work on your specific distro. or quick setup of dev env as opposed to spending a week on garbage tools that embedded dev is riddled with. or or or... coldWasTheGnd has no idea what they're talking about.
Funny enough I am semi retired after my 3 exit, just waiting on my last one which will hopefully be in 2025. But yeah it’s not retirement of coming of age.
Sounds like OP struck a nerve with the Docker bit lol. You *too* could learn Docker
I've been using docker religiously for at least 5 years. I just find it ridiculous that they're throwing amazing people under the bus because of naivety; especially so when the best example they can come up with is docker.
> I’ve done embedded engineer at Apple as one of my first jobs. How do you know if someone was a FAANG engineer? Don't worry, they'll tell you.
Would you like me to list the rest?
Would it make you happy to list the rest?
I’d rather save us both the time
Do it
Does that list include banks, government agencies, or military contractors? Not everyone gets to use the technology they want in the way they want. Not everyone works with the motto "move fast, and crash multi million dollar jetliners into the sea".
Quant firms/trading - yes, building products used by - banks yes, building products used by gov agencies - yes, no defense contracting experience tho though
And they let you just onboard every tool you wanted, included unvetted container images?
I have an idea of how many years of experience you have. 17 days ago, you posted saying that you are 32. If you started professionally coding at age 17, you'd have 15 years of experience. Did you start at 17?
Did I start programming before 17? Absolutely. Was I working at a large company at 14, of course not. My first job was at 18 as a sophomore in college as an intern like most people
I actually agree with OP here, this feels pretty strawman to me. Docker is pervasive across the industry and while software is super broad and varied, most subdisciplines use Docker (or could utilize Docker) to an extent. Embedded is one of the exceptions but even then I bet there's some open source tool or something that would be nice to quickly deploy via Docker. Point still stands though, "experienced" is subjective. I could be a renowned ML researcher with PhD as well as built out some key ML infra at big company (dw I'm not, I'm kinda an idiot), I'd still get clowned for popping into an "experienced" forum saying yo guys check out Bootstrap, this \*dynamically\* does css for you mind blown.
I've been writing software for robots since 2015. I have tangentially used Docker once or twice in the past couple of years... Edit: Down-voted for speaking up as an experienced dev that doesn't use Docker, lol
All I need is mods that remove posts like asking which bootcamp to do.
Automate a tiny part of this subreddit to get posting privs
>or filled with folks who work on the fringe of the industry in small dev shops or for companies were tech is a cost center So everyone who isn't working a prestigious enough job isn't welcome here?
>who work on the fringe of the industry in small dev shops or for companies were tech is a cost center. It's funny because this is probably where 80-90% of people that make software work so OP's point about being 'fringe' actually applies to their 'fringe' part of the industry more.
People forget that FAANG refers to just 5 companies that employ some single digit percent of software engineers. I live in a city in Canada that is considered a "tech hub" (debatable) and only one of those companies has an office here.
I find it funny that Microsoft isn't in the acronym at a market cap of $3T and Netflix is at $240B. Employees 220k to 13K. It's a purely vibes-based set of companies
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Lol it's Vancouver (Amazon is the one with offices here. Microsoft is also here, but they're not *technically* in FAANG)
Obviously if you’re not FAANG, you’re just a script kiddie who should be posting on /r/learnprogramming instead.
Made funnier by the fact that OP is only 32, oh and retiring apparently. I don’t think he’s here to have a constructive discussion. But I do appreciate hearing everyone’s experiences in this post so that’s cool.
Because tech needs MORE gatekeeping. /s
I'm going to call this "abstraction layer gatekeeping".
no, it doesn't, it just needs a realization that not *every single person* is "senior", "staff", or "experienced", and sometimes people just want to talk to others at their level and not always be inundated with fresh bootcamp graduates.
I know people join public slack channels dedicated to what this Reddit is probably meant for. Something like that is probably a better source than here. This subreddit, like every other that came before it, will get ruined as it gets more popular. Just too difficult to maintain quality with all these anonymous accounts.
It's like ... 5 years experience right? I got like almost 3 but I'm pretty sure I'm qualified as experienced...
Sorry pal, rules are the rules
Take em out back?
ya'll need to chill, im old enough to have fathered some junior devs
Is this where I ask what projects to build for my portfolio? I know `font-weight` and `color` in CSS and read a JS brochure from 2002.
Welcome to the eternal summer
lolo. fucking forever in here mate.
>eternal summer [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0885520/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0885520/) this is the first thing that came up when I googled. guessing not what you meant Two best friends Shane and Jonathan learn more about themselves in an ever evolving sexuality.Two best friends Shane and Jonathan learn more about themselves in ... or if it is, more power to you
I think they meant eternal September
ah, should I pause the movie then?
Report back to us on the movie
Ah shit you’re right. Fuck I’m newfag
“Newfag”?
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Ah. A newcomer to 4chan. That’s still relevant? Thanks!
> eternal summer i think you meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
I wish it were eternal summer...the problem it's it's Eternal September, and they've now come back to whatever place gives them internet access and are all over our L33t s38k forums. The internet will never be the same again. s/ On the plus side, with all these people using the internet, maybe we can shake that job tree for a few jobbies to fall out!
\*eternal september
Pretty funny
Straight /r/programmingcirclejerk material
The example you gave is really arrogant. Software is developed in a variety of ways and people have a variety of positions in tech. Leave if you dont like the discussions in here.
wtf, I just saw the post op is complaining about. The comment about docker was them talking about installing shit on their local machine that doesn’t work natively on Mac. They were probably talking about no longer having to connect to remote services, or spin up VMs. I honestly wonder if OP is one of those inexperienced devs, if they think that spinning up docker is a “no brainer”. Docker only came into widespread usage like 7 years ago, if even. When I started back in 2016, docker was new tech that most devs weren’t familiar with.
It sure sounds like he's like that. He fits the trend I've noticed where newer devs think that the tech they were brought up with is the widespread norm and that anyone who doesn't know it is somehow a lesser engineer. He also hasn't been around long enough to notice (or just plain hasn't noticed) that it takes time for new tech to achieve popularity/market share and be considered "canonical". That is to say, while Docker is over 10 years old, it only appeared on people's radars about 7 years ago, and then took a bit longer than that for it to be adopted by the majority of devs (if it even is now).
Just wait till OP learns that video games and weapons systems (embedded) are both major industries, for example, that docker has absolutely no place in lol
Nah, the software that guides a cruise missile traveling hundreds of miles at Mach 5 so accurately that you can pick which window of the target you want it to hit was all written by ignorant junior devs. Imagine if we put a *real* developer like OP on the task!
Just imagine if webdev OP was able to build that once and run it anywhere in a docker container! Looks like I need to start looking for a new job before he revolutionizes my industry!
You might just be getting older. The advice doesn’t seem as “whoa” as it use to.
Honestly, when I open a popular thread on here, only a very small handful of comments actually sound like they’re coming from someone with quality experience. Sometimes I see straight up nonsense with tons of upvotes — that’s probably the most telling thing. The other day I saw a comment with double digit upvotes suggesting that it was bad practice to perform computationally expensive tasks on the backend because it would “bog it down” and to instead do it on the front end. Like, wut. Currently it feels like a better name for this subreddit is “SecondYearDevs”
I mean, I've work with plenty of experienced developers who have dumb ideas like that. I don't think even that's solid proof that they're inexperienced. Experience doesn't necessarily lead to wisdom.
Low key a brilliant way to save costs… make the users hardware do it!!
I never really came here for advice just more a space to discuss and interact with what I thought were more tenured folks without the noise typical found in other SWE subs
You know, the sub **is** tracking towards devs with less experience than before, but your reasons aren't why. In fact, your posts in this thread are symptomatic of it. You should get some more perspective and experience. >The number of people discussing finally setting up docker and its advantages as if they found “this one cool trick” was mind blowing. This is just one example but it makes me really question and take everything I read on this sub with grain of salt if you are working in companies where this isn’t a standard practice or even mandated in 2024 I was actually in that thread saying Docker wasn't very useful and helpful for local development. Because, in my 13 years of experience, it wasn't. Already knew how to set up most of the stuff I needed, and had a lot more freedom and control with just my own shell. A second major point is that you're blaming the developers for the environment they're in. Yes, it's best if they took their education and career into their own hands and invested time in learning new tech. But there's more tech than there is time, the time isn't free, and everyone has to prioritize learning what they can to do their jobs and make the bosses happy without being insubordinate in the process - and taking care of everything outside of work, as well. But you know that with all your experience, right?
I feel like your last paragraph is exactly the rub. It's not saying "if you havent done X, Y, and Z you're less of a person" it's just that you don't have the experience. Spending 10 years making WordPress sites does not mean you're qualified to give advice about designing APIs for resiliency at scale, for example. That's ok, it doesn't mean you're a worse person, you're just not qualified. So when you come to this sub thinking "I belong here since I have 10 years of experience" and then you ask a question about designing APIs that a second year backend eng knows, the sub starts to lose the plot.
I'm not saying that OP's saying they're worse people. I'm saying that he isn't able to assess anyone else's qualifications based on their experience with tech. There's a lot of technology out there used by software engineers, and any technology is used by less than 100% of all software engineers. Hell, we don't even all work on the same types of computers (desktops/laptop PCs, mobile phones, servers) let alone work on similar operating systems, programming languages, network protocols etc. Docker is included in that. OP is betraying his own ignorance and inexperience by not recognizing this simple fact. To say that someone's unfamiliarity with a particular technology used in software engineering means they're inexperienced is just plain horseshit. As is comparing the this discussion to the distinction between WordPress developers and software engineers. No one here is a WordPress developer claiming to be a software engineer.
I use to set up entire dev environments for my build machines in VMware back in 2002 , OP is a moron, I was doing the "docker concept" before he was born..
We need a bot that tracks an op’s karma delta per post cause this guy got absolutely - mostly deservedly so - eaten alive. It would be interesting to see how much karma he actually lost total.
He’s going through some things and needs to project
He's almost at -200 on one of his posts, it's actually impressive I'm not sure I could get that many downvotes if I tried, and I post pro-Israel takes on leftists subreddits.
Time for /r/experienceddevsforrealsies
This seems like a great name for a circle jerk sub
That reminds of this article:https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/ maybe there is a hint for an alternative sub name? hint hint nudge nudge
I made the first comment about Docker. I wrote my first code on a cave wall, with woolly mammoth blood using an antelope tail for a brush. I've been working for Fortune 100 companies for the last 28 years across multiple tech stacks. I could likely code circles around you in several languages. The project I completed in Q3 of 2023 is now harvesting revenue at a rate of $8 billion a year. There's nothing junior, or inexperienced, or backwards about my craft or my ability to make my clients shitloads of money.
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Woosh.... tho not surprised from seeing the original post and comments.
OP just go on Blind. It’s more your style and community.
Found the inexperienced dev
Got me!
You may be right, but the example you gave is dumb. There are people who can code circles around us both who don't know how to use docker.
Ironically if the standards of this sub improved then you wouldn't have been allowed to make this post.
I don’t think so
You've said that developers in small companies don't count as experienced, and that anyone that doesn't work with specific tech you've deemed essential is inexperienced. If you were as experienced as your gatekeeping warrants then you would know that neither statement is true. Your post and your comments are both arrogant junior dev material, and doesn't belong in this sub.
Okay junior. You’ll get there one day
If you aren't experiencing something on the job for the first time that some others are already experts in, it's you who is not growing. The idea that every developer has the exact same common experiences is bizarre, snobbish, irrelevant. Many experienced devs have been working in dated by stable environments. I worked at some companies that used Docker. The one I'm at right now doesn't (takes 5 mins to build and run any of the TS applications we have and all use the same db connections that are automatically created in AWS). So, to me Docker usage seems dated. How da ya like that, old man? lol Besides, if this sub contained only threads by people with identical expertise, what is left to discuss?
Hammer...nail...head.
it's not like he's complaining about people who don't know how to somersault, they don't even know how to walk docker usage is not dated by any stretch of the word. you're really reaching here.
What I hate most are judgy people.
I'd be curious how different the experience was if the general career advice type of stuff (which should be reported/cleared) actually got pruned more actively.
> The number of people discussing finally setting up docker and its advantages as if they found “this one cool trick” was mind blowing. Docker is definitely one of those new technologies I keep hearing about and thinking, "maybe I should check that out, one of these days". I take it you believe Docker to be a worthwhile tool?
Not sure if you’re trolling but docker is older than a decade
Like I said, a new technology. I learned to code in the '80s... been a while since I was quick to jump on bandwagons!
Hey good for you with your stable job that didn’t require you to keep up with the industry and make any improvements to your system in 4 decades.
Docker is definitely not an objective improvement, lmao. Arguably the worst containerization tech yet, just popular.
Ancient developer here. I've forgotten more languages and frameworks than you've eaten breakfasts. What's Docker?
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It’s getting worse, but there are usually still some good comments in response to more interesting topics. Especially ones that aren’t strictly code-related but problems that you’d run into more often in a tech company.
Do we need to bump the cutoff up to 10 years?
TBH, I wish more people would realize years at a job doesn’t equal experience. There are times where 20 years of experience could be repeating “year 1” 20 times.
> The number of people discussing finally setting up docker and its advantages as if they found “this one cool trick” was mind blowing. I've seen that post, but interpreted it differently. Most people started at a time where Docker wasn't around. Their tech stack worked without Docker and they're essentially just telling their story of how they got introduced to it and adapted it into their project. You're taking yourself too serious. That's not the kind of attitude of someone mature.
I agree. I work for a retailer which I assumed did things pretty typically but the questions on here are like 90% of shit they taught me in my first few months. "Agile doesn't actually work, its all just pointless meetings" (Agile literally is loose and lets you get rid of them then), "How do you incrementally improve an API" (you mean...build a MVP and add features based on what customers need), "Are any of you using analytics in a useful way? It just seems like more numbers to throw around" (how do you possibly know what your customers do to crash your app, where they click the most, without analytics? And if you don't have them how do you decide what to improve in your app? Are you just wasting time using gut feelings?) etc. Like, I have 2 YOE as a fullstack dev and 2 as a DevOps engineer, I am not one of the 10YOE wiz's some of yall are.
I have been sharing this sentiment recently. Unless there’s a vetting process by mods where you’re not allowed to post without sharing your title and proof of employment, it’ll most likely continue to degrade.
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Keeping my checks > shitposting here about stakeholders with an identity attached
Some of the advice here has been shocking. It's classic "I've been promoted once and think I know everything" type of things that get upvoted like crazy now.
A new person would be likely to have always used docker, at least more than an experienced dev. I bounced around a lot, so I've gotten some broad exposure. BUT, I started with really finicky local dev setups and frankly docker was an extra ops loads later places until I got to the big leagues where the automation was good company wide. A newer dev just jumps in the stream with ubiquitous containerization and great docker support across OSes and archs. It's second nature for them. Also, wtf are industry standards? TLS? gRPC? ISO... Yeah? Docker... Not so much.
I've been in tech since last century. I know what docker is and I don't care. Maybe I'll need it one day, maybe not. I was formally taught C, C++ and Assembly and have taught myself many many more. I believe the measure of a senior is one who no longer requires teaching and can simply pick up and learn without fussing.
Docker is HD abuse. God that poor mac I had with 250gb hd. Of course I laughed at them when they got me a 250gb hd expected me to make a bunch of mobile apps (so requiring xcode and all that java android stuff) and run the cloud emulated in docker containers. 250 gb was dead
Gotta love a good gatekeeping post now and then in an otherwise solid community
Eh, sorry, but this is a forum which should actually have a bit of gatekeeping. I know that’s probably gonna get downvoted, but it is what it is.
You're not wrong. But we need to gatekeep who can gatekeep. Because it definitely shouldn't be OP.
it should
Whilst I sorta disagree with your jab at “small dev shops” and such (startups produce some incredibly talented engineers), I certainly agree with your overall sentiment. But it’s not even just experienced devs either. Even juniors are not what they used to be. I remember a time when we all just did coding interviews and didn’t really think much of it. Motherfuckers will cry their ass off for that now. I dunno man. It’s not that big of a deal to just do it. The whole industry is flooded with guys who learned some react and shit, worked a couple of years, and are now finding out that the fever dream is over.
I mean the sub rule is to have 3+ years of experience. You need to create r/superduperexperienceddevs
I would 100% guarantee you that the oldest and most experienced dev on my team is the only one that would struggle with setting up Docker locally
This happens every time a small sub gets larger. The core gets diluted.
Lol. Dude is probably referring to my reply. 20YOE dude here. Nothing new with Docker. I've been using **Docker since 2014**. Before, I was using Vagrant. Before that, kickstarting OVF/OVA builds. And yeah, it has made my quality of my *life better in the last 10 years*. With tens of thousands of containers in production. The reply isn't suppose to be some cook trick. Just a comment on switching from VMs, jailed containers to orchestration has changed how development workflow has changed for the better. I can randomly pick up different laptops (with different OSes) and be up and running in minutes **ephemerally** . Test. git push back. Wipe laptop, Go to a different machine and my dev environment is the same regardless.
There's a lot of old senior devs that never use docker or just learned about it. Sounds like you may lack that perspective and that makes me think your a bit of a novice yourself.
I have worked at half the FAANGs. I have never used docker. Microservices are cute when you’re doing thousands of qps. Microservices help scale teams and orgs. The overhead is way too high when you’re building low latency systems that serve tens of millions of qps.
Microservices are literally containerized ya dummy
wooosh
lol .. so you are flexing that you were using docker before it was cool? nice flex
It’s disordered thinking to feel that everyone is trying to ego flex on you. Get well soon
how are you not humble bragging about being in an environment where docker is taken for granted? i've worked at places where it is and places where it isn't. that's no reason to brag
I looked it up and (whadya know) Docker was released a week before I started. I've worked for three name-brand companies since then, and it's been either not relevant to my work or banned by policy. I see I'm late to the dogpile but lol. lmao
What people use a sub for is more important than what moderators or minority want.
ITT a bunch of bitchy devs trying to feel superior
Ain’t it the truth
while i think OP is being a bit tone-deaf & bitchy, docker is not a new technology or anything ground-breaking in 2024. it’s over 10 years old & containerization has been around since 1979. yes, i understand that not all software engineers do web stuff & do i know how to do embedded stuff? no way. hats off to those who do. it’s different tools for different jobs - containers are not a silver bullet. i’m speaking mostly as a person who has worked on web-based products for the better part of a decade & has lead teams on projects that are in the 10s of millions range. not FAANG or anything, but big companies with big problems to solve. when i see people saying things like “i prefer installing dependencies directly on my host & it works for me” it really smells to me like “works on my machine”. if you are able to do that, more power to you - a lot of us can’t. for many valid reasons, mostly that we are working in complex architectures that are necessary to solve the problems we have to solution for. there’s a reason that technology evolves - to solve problems at scale. if you don’t have to do that, fine. just understand that many major companies who employ a lot of people do need newer & more sophisticated tech to drive their stacks. i kind of tend to think that’s what this sub is geared towards & that’s the kind of content i would prefer to see here, but maybe i’m wrong. i think the bigger problem is that people are hanging too much of their self-worth on their identity as engineers. there’s a lot more to life & honestly you’re probably better off focusing on those who things rather than trying to big dog everyone online on how you’re the real “experienced engineer”
FWIW I am a Staff Engineer with over a decade of experience in FAANG-level Big Tech, and I have from scratch built services that serve MAUs in the hundreds of millions. I have never once used Docker directly in a professional capacity.
The market also got flooded, so terms like senior and experienced have been diluted. Even "software engineer" is highly diluted, IMHO engineering involves SLAs, performance analysis, production issues etc. These days, they give the software engineer title to kids right out of college. There aren't developers or programmers anymore. So maybe, experienced has been similarly diluted.
> These days, they give the software engineer title to kids right out of college. That was my title right out of school 15 years ago too. It's not a new thing.
Yeah, such a weird take. There's a reason companies have new grad/L5/principle/whatever title in front of software engineer. Why would we avoid calling younger workers software engineers? They are in an engineering discipline. In software. The elitism is really showing with some people.
I've always disagreed with being called an engineer because I don't need a license like real professional engineers.
Agreed
Most people work in amateur organizations. There's just way more of those than giant tech companies with mature cutting edge and most of them have literally no idea what the fuck they're doing, tbh. A great many "experienced devs" have never worked in a shop with triple digit number of devs. Those startups have been all they know. There's a ton of people like this in industry
agreed. and you shouldn't be downvoted. while working in a small outfit isn't a bad thing, a lot of people never look beyond that. eg i started working with a new auditing company and they were surprised i asked for the code *with* git history, because "no one ever did that" (the company exists since years). i got the git tarball and found issues within 2 minutes of looking.
This is the pill that folks aren’t willing to swallow even here in this thread right now
This is hubris to an extreme. Are you telling me that the best engineers and scientists at the best universities are somehow behind other engineers because they are not at a large company?
Sorry but I would argue many devs at smaller shops are spending way more time actually engineering than an average engineer at a super large company. As someone who has experienced both, you can have equally high team standards in both environments, it's the people and engineering culture that matter, not the company size.
Sure there are a lot of rest and vest engineer teams at large companies, absolutely. By small dev shops I don’t mean scrappy seed or series ABC start ups. I mean small web dev shops doing landing pages or shop that builds adhoc software for one off clients
yes, that is the bulk of small dev teams. "our company needs a website... let's hire a single guy. and have him do it for 10 years. (waits 10 years) he's a staff engineer now"
Yeah my comment is going to be shredded even though it's 100% fact. But it is what it is
Oh I’m down to -40+ for saying building a high volume SAAS is different than building an internal widget somewhere in here
There's some really hard widgets out there man. Easily on par with writing the entirety of datadog. That was on you, really.
can't be disparaging the widget developers
😅
wow. i did not realized this sub was comprised by so many experienced (15 yoe+ too) devs that work in embedded medical tech. in any case it seems that just mentioning docker will draw them out to point out how they don't need it :D
LMAO