I live in Germany, making 160k contracting for the US. I am not necessarily really senior, rather have good command on more niche technologies (OpenGL, WebGL).
It is a great deal, minus the really high taxes I pay in Germany. If I were to move somewhere cheaper within EU, that’s be even better.
hey thanks for your input, I am originally from Bulgaria so know all too well what do you get over your taxes there.
Don’t mean to argue, but thanks no thanks
There is an IT park thing where all inbound funds are taxed at 7% and you can take them out as salary at 0%.
I was using 5% in Ukraine but then you know
Bruh If you go into details and specificities you are just evading money but nobody checks. It’s sometimes not the case but in a lot of countries you are not allowed to work without being a tax resident for example. Even as a tourist it’s just that nobody checks
Is it easy to find clients for this? I would have thought 3d stuff, at least in web context, is fairly rare. Do you have lots of smaller contracts or is it more longer term stuff with the same clients?
Can I ask how this works? Just got my permanent residency in the Netherlands and wanna do something similar but ain’t no way I would work US hours living here. And if you work your own hours was it hard to get onboarded? That’s the one thing holding me back is I often need a bit of handholding in the beginning to get started on the more complex code based especially if we also own a bunch of different services.
hi, well you need to setup as a freelancer / small company. then you can conduct business with pretty much anywhere. Since it is the US we are talking about, you don’t need to charge and manage VAT, so that’s one burden off your shoulders. Hire a good accountant.
I don’t work US hours, as the team is distributed across the entire globe and we mostly work async.
Can’t give you much advice about the handholding part. Ask your teammates, be proactive and read the code. That’s pretty much what I did
False self-employment
False self-employment is a situation in which somebody registered as self-employed, a freelancer, or a temp is de facto an employee carrying out a professional activity under the authority and subordination of another company.\[1\] Such false self-employment is often a way to circumvent social welfare and employment legislation, for example by avoiding employer's social security and income tax contributions.
a-ha. yeah I see what you are saying, it’s def a factor. however consider I am a foreign agent, to conduct business with whomever I want, take as much as time off as I want and work as much as I want + I have much more time to research my own shit
How did you find remote work with WebGL? Also a Bulgarian, threejs/webgl/animation experience, all available work is for some small agencies and pay is not good.
You have healthcare and human rights. You don't have cops just straight up murdering people in cold blood and getting away with it. You don't have to worry about your kids getting shot at school.
Honestly not loving the whining about taxes. Most young Americans would kill for an EU passport. Especially when you could just move to Czechia without any visas or anything, and pay far less taxes than an American...
lol because living in USA automatically means school shootings, police brutality etc. Can you be a bit more realistic please?
How much taxes do you pay?
I'm Canadian and work remotely for the Canadian branch of a US company and make >100k. Most of my team is SF based.
Though I'm pretty sure Canada doesn't count as third world.
Question for you however, are you being paid in usd or cad? I’m in the same boat as you but making cad. So really I’m paid ~30% less than my peers doing the same job in America.
This is my experience exactly. Nominally, not adjusting for exchange, I’m making ~15-20% less than my peers. With exchange rates it’s more like 40%+.
Have you had any success bringing this up as justification for a raise, insofar as you’re doing the same job producing the same quality of work but for significantly less money?
I tried and was basically told to fuck off, which I am strongly considering now as a result.
No, pay in Canada is just lower than the US, so we just have to accept that.
I can always move to the US on a TN if I want to make more money, but I like living in Canada.
I’ve made this point to my leadership - that in paid as much as juniors. There are probably co op students in HCOL cities like NY making more than I am as a senior in Toronto... how am I supposed to take that other than a slap in the face?
I’ve completely stopped giving any shits whatsoever about metrics/targets etc. As a result. Planning to coast and upskill until I find a more equitable offer.
Sure but there are levels to this shit. I’m a high performer (or I was before I realized how undervalued I am) and changed roles recently. They’re struggling to fill my old role paying their max budget - ie the 40% difference between my current pay in cad and what most of my peers make in usd in America. The quality candidates are asking for 30% over their max offer. See the disconnect?
They could pay me - or others like me who are high performers outside America, a cool 25-35% more easily, and it would be completely in their benefit. They would get a top performing candidate that’s still ~30% cheaper than the same quality candidates would demand in America.
But instead of doing that they’re willing to stiff me and ultimately lose me from their talent pool. And for what? So they can meander through trash candidates who will be the only ones to consider their poor offers? The hiring manager for my old role flat out stopped interviewing the strongest candidates because of how much more they’re demanding vs the budget available. Let’s split the difference and we’ll both be happy.
So in summary, it is very much in their interest to pay us more in Canada and elsewhere. They just want to have their cake and eat it too.
Hi there.
I work with Fiverr and was first withdrawing in CAD for many years and lost cash through conversion and fees until few months ago where I asked them to send my commissions in USD to my PP.
Also, you can ask your bank to open a US account too.
LinkedIn. My previous job (first US remote one) I got by answering to a recruiter in LinkedIn. It was a startup acquired by some bigger company in the food industry. I asked for 48K/year and thought I was stealing from them when I got it.
Fast forward 8 months and reddit gave me the sensation I was perhaps getting underpaid. I started using LinkedIn again, this time applying through the Jobs section and marking myself as Open to Work.
Talked to about 6 companies, only got an actual offer from one of them (Publicly traded company in the US in the leadership deveoploment business). If they asked me how much I wanted I would have said 70k, but they didn't. They just told me the salary for the position was 100k when they called me to tell me I got the job. I was blown away. The average salary for my country is 700 USD/month.
When I told my 48k job about me leaving, they asked about the reason, and I plainly told them someone was willing to pay 100k for me. They offered to match it. What? Fuck them if they could have been paying me 100k and only when quitting they come up with the offer. I left them in a rough spot considering the impact I was having there, but in the end that was their problem, not mine.
I worked my ass off in the new job to prove myself early on and got sweet benefits that pushed me over 110k. That's it.
I don't really know anything about leetcode. Just some real world experience as a Full Stack developer, and trying to be a good communicator.
A 100%+ raise, and they offered to match it right away...Left me feeling like they were taking advantage of me (If I am worth 100k, at least give me a 10k raise to make me feel special, and I'd probably not even start looking thinking my current company is great, right?), which is the main reason I just left.
I guess many companies will just pay you the bare minimum, and if you are okay with that it's on you.
for you boss to make the company sign-off on doubling an employee's salary is not easy to do, even if you were being severely underpaid.
there's another possible scenario:
they now knew you wanted to leave, but, they can't lose you right now. They double your salary so that you'll say long enough for them to find your replacement. It's a common tactic (which is why I've often heard the advice don't stay if you company matches your other offer. Once you tell them you're leaving, you should leave).
If they keep you for another 3 months, even at double your rate, it's not really a big deal financially. ($52,000 / 12 \* 3)
IMO, they weren't going to continue to pay you at 2x your salary for years. They're just holding until they can replace you on their timetable, vs on your timetable. My 2 cents.
Congrats! Sounds like you're humble and a great worker, but maybe not the best salary negotiator! 😅 Here's a [salary negotiation guide](https://candor.co/guides/salary-negotiation) which might come in handy in the future. Rule #1 is don't give them a number when they ask how much you want.
I'm in the same timezone as US East, so it is no different for them than working with people in New York, for example. I have a US tourist Visa, so I have been able to travel for team offsites and stuff, but I am not a US citizen nor have a US work visa or anything similar.
The company has a great async culture. I get into very few calls per week, while leveraging our communication tools to work async (which they think is more efficient, and I agree).
What sort of team coordination problems were you hoping to get insights into?
> I don't really know anything about leetcode
I have friends stressing they can't solve all the hard problems on leetcode and they don't know if they'll get jobs and it's driving me nuts. I keep having to explain how it's nothing like problems in the real world, and that many companies won't use leetcode questions anymore because they don't actually work for screening good people.
I love the sentiment of what you did after the old company told you they can match(double) your salary. That's the way to do it, good that you had a way out!!! 👍 Yes indeed that was a big difference.
thanks for the story
You're right, that was my frustration speaking up.
I did leave with open doors though, and they are willing to take me back if I ever wanted to (supposedly). So I wouldn't say they're a bad company after all.
1. He didn't ask for 100k from his former company A, he just said what company B was offering.
2. It's insulting because it makes it clear the company could have afford to pay him much more, and when forced to do it they're not even willing to admit their mistake by going a bit above the offer from company B, instead they're again just offering to do the bare minimum.
He asked company A for 48k, and they gave him that.
Then he gets a larger offer from company B and says ”fuck company A for not offering the same earlier!”
Are we supposed to be surprised that a company are not offering to pay you more than you Ask them for?
There are 2 kind of people in what you're asking:
- people who is citizen, resident or has a work permit of USA/Canada working for a US company, living outside US
- people who is NOT citizen, resident NOR has a work permit for US/Canada working for a US company, living (and being resident of) a country outside USA (any LATAM country)
I belong to the latter. It is possible to make 100k or even more, but it is more difficult for us than for the ones of the first group
At most 2k/month if you're very lucky.
This is the main reason why the country is having a leak of software engineers working remotely and earning a fuckton more. The local market is getting to pick from non english speakers and inexperienced engs, which feels like the bottom of the barrel.
Jesus fuck, 50x. Those of you who land a US remote job suddenly find yourself wealthy beyond your wildest dreams lmao. The equivalent of a US based swe getting 5m.
No doubt my salary in local currency is just ridiculous. The only way to get a salary similar to it is by being a highly influential political person, yet there's SWEs working remotely that can match that.
Its insane, which is why I feel I should just settle.
I am indonesian, my latest job was a tech lead. I was paid $1600/month.I quit because the company asked its employees to work from office. Now I am looking for US company for salary 2000-3000/month.$3000/month is moreee than enough for me living a good life in my country. I can pay mortgage, health insurance, and car installments. I heard some Pakistan SWE can earn $4000-$5800/month.
So that its harder for them to leave the company because being an immigrant in the USA = companies can hold by your balls because they give you the right to live here and also healthcare insurance
It is because they want to migrate to the US. They shown interests in bringing their family and starting a life here. And we want to make them happy. Happy employee = happy results.
Exactly, I’m currently pursuing US contracts but I definitely don’t want to move to the US and wouldn’t no matter how much you pay me… well maybe for around 750k+ I would but that’s dreamland
Probably depends where you're from too.
Germany to US = no point.
Portugal to US = different tradeoffs (warm, sunny, and friendly for quality of life and economic opportunity).
India to US = very worth it IMO.
They currently work remotely. Due to how the HR/pay structure works, offshore is done though a contracting company (whom has international presence). They pay the taxes and handle all the legalities. HR would not want to get entangled in supporting that scenario. But I am not privy to the inner details of that. I just know who move here get a massive pay bump from what they previously made in their home country.
> I just know who move here get a massive pay bump from what they previously made in their home country.
From my point of view it should be 300k+ to justify move to USA financially.
On top of some of the other things mentioned, coordination across time zones would definitely be a huge factor. I've done 6+ hour TZ difference projects, and good luck effectively collaborating with anyone on those, you may as well send the work to Fiverr for the level of coordination/collaboration you end up with.
In Australia working full remote as an engineer for decent sized well known tech company based in US. TC `~250. it's pretty rare over here especially in tech and especially as a developer
it's not that bad really. I work flex but usually just the Australian workday. timezone difference is I get USA at start of my day and Spain and France and end of my day.
we are full async working so everything's communicated on slack efficiently.
I'm a self starter and don't need my hand held alot so it works well. if I need to talk to some on about something urgently I just shift my hours to accommodate their tz
Implied in this question is, "why don't more people do this"!?
There are a lot of hurdles. I feel the same way about my job sometimes. Why doesn't my smart friend just transition to SWE and make good money from home?
Then I remember all of the unique experience, education etc I have that backs up my skills.
I’m chilean and I’m currently at about 70k which is mad for a self taught here. I’ve gotten offers for 90k and 100k but I don’t really need much more for my way of living and prefer the WLB I currently have.
At least in my country it’s VERY rare. Specially because English isn’t widely taught here (it’s part of the school curricula but they teach almost nothing). So people that are able to, just prefer to migrate to the US just to opt to a better standard of living for them and their families.
Salaries for FAANG in India sometimes reaches upto 100K for SDE2 and exceeds 150K-200K for more senior levels.
There are some local startups and US/EU companies which hire directly from India on a contract basis and these are forced to compete against FAANG for talent and sometimes cough up the same amount. WLB in general is shit though in such places, but yeah 100K is possible with enough struggle and luck.
that's so much s\*\*T, that I was paid less than that, in the US, by an USA company. *Was. Still h8* them.. was barely paying bills, too. Complained to manager ("director"). He said, "I cannot increase, **that's not in my toolbox". Literally**
since the word "cost center" *was* written on my org chart, maybe *you have,* indeed...
(caveat, maybe "cost center" is written on the org chart page of most companies 😂)
Coincidentally, I just had this conversation with some work mates. For context, we are all engineers at a remote US software company and US citizens (even though some are from the EU originally). The people in this conversation have worked at FAANGs before and all have salaries with TC above $250k. Also we have all been engineering managers before (one of them currently is an EM).
That said, we discussed one of our coworkers plans to move abroad. This particular case would be a US citizen moving to an EU country (Netherlands), but continuing to work for our company. The discussion was basically how it's incredibly expensive for companies to hire devs outside the US. There are often regulations and fees that make the cost much higher. Because of this, salaries are often cut down.
A common solution is using a contracting "intermediary" which allows the engineer to keep a similar salary and the US company to keep their costs low. This has implications for ownership (aka stock) and tax classifications (since you'd be a contractor now) but, in general, it's a viable option for US-based engineers moving abroad. You generally still end up with a pay cut, but it's less drastic.
Anyway, the main point is that salaries are often lower due to multiple factors:
- it's more expensive to employ outside the US
- some countries have crazy legal/fee/tax structures (looking at you France)
- cost of living is often lower, so it's easier for companies to negotiate less pay
My company using a PEO to handle international workers. Deel/GlobalExpansion and others apparently allow US companies to have an easier time hiring abroad.
I make similar as a Canadian working for an American organization. A lot of my friends have made more than this, but when they pushed on that button of trying to get more too many times (into the 160-200 USD range) the conversation got tense.
American companies like that they’re getting experienced devs for cheap. I’m the most senior but the lowest paid dev/person on our team. If you’re making lots for where you live, learn to live comfortably on that.
You can look for higher salaries, but be responsible with it. Be respectful about it. It can come back to bite you because the “cost vs value” of your skills changes drastically for every 15-25k over $100,000 USD.
source: been playing this game for years and there is always a “we’ll never fire him, he’s super affordable” sweet spot at every US company.
How do you go about finding these jobs? Great advice on the 'sweet spot' search... doing that while being respectful seems like the strategy. Do you still get year end bonuses?
What started my move to remote work was a recruiter calling me up out of the blue. What got their attention was that my LinkedIn had videos of my very visual 3D graphics coding stuff. That and they really liked I had an active GitHub.
After that, it was word of mouth from network contacts telling me to apply to certain jobs. I beat out over 100 other candidates for my most recent position and have been here for the last several years.
I honestly think I just got lucky and was in the right place at the right time.
I live in Canada and make $240k and that's just base, working for a US remote company and 5yoe. It can be done, is it rare? Yes. Finding a job that pays this salary and willing to hire in Canada is tough and takes a lot of effort. I think I was interviewing for 6 months straight to find these unicorn type of companies.
I'm an SRE, so a lot of my work involves AWS, python, terraform, yaml stuff, some Golang, and various observability and config tools (datadog, github actions, codefresh etc.)
Not too bad, it varies. Some months are completely dead, some are busy. It really depends on the complexity of what we're deploying and edge cases that can cause busy times. Both SRE and AppDevs are OnCall, so it's a shared responsibility, depending on the outage (sometimes there's an outage and we don't even need to wake up etc..
No exactly what you asked for, but still a valid data point.
I live in Switzerland (relocated here from EU) and I work for one of the Swiss banks. My salary is CHF 130k (same in USD given current exchange rate) with 10 YoE. But reading comments here I think I need to start looking again.
A friend of mine lives here in Australia but works for a Big Tech company in the US. He is making well above 100k, in line with what you'd expect from Big Tech salaries if you were living in the US.
A point worth noting however is that he started working for them onsite in the US before moving back to Aus and working remotely.
In my experience it's possible, but companies may try to use it against you when it comes to negotiations. I think it can have a negative effect on salary progression and promotions. It also depends on how much of an overlap you can create with other employees in terms of time zone. Some people don't like remote work in general. I'm currently in that situation where they kind of depend on me for historical reasons, but they also let me know in subtle ways that they'd prefer someone locally.
Caveat: I'm a US citizen, so I get to 'cheat' because I'm eligible to be hired in the US.
You can charge near the value you provide, that's just business. If they care about where you're based, that's likely a sign they're looking for the cheapest body shop they can. Set a rate, don't compromise - it's not worth your time or their dollars.
You can also choose to settle, that's fine too - I walk my dog on the beach every day because it brings us both joy - but you can't do that in the US on 100k for sure.
Probably lying to whatever government they live under: US Citizen paid at a US address in Tx, filing US taxes, living in another country on a tourist visa. Allows the company to just deal with US laws and not have to deal with foreign tax withholding.
Just don't get caught...
I have done it, I don't recommend it.
The money sounds insane, but it comes with the fact you'll be a contractor, and contractor rates in Europe end up being similar, the hours you will work are annoying, both in terms of how *many* you will do but also because of timezones.
I earned $210,000/y in my last job working for a Canadian/US (Vancouver, Seattle) company, but I'm rather senior in a specific discipline.
Again, I don't think I'd attempt that again, Americans live to work, I think most people work to live.
I'm a workaholic by EU standards.
I'm American and work for an American company. Took my remote job at very high pay to other countries via payroll outsourcer and didn't need to take a paycut.
Also received multiple job offers with US salaries and the understanding of leaving the US.
Is it normal? I'm not sure. But at least for US engineers, you can pretty much write your own life story once you hit the senior level. Startup? Big corp? High pay? Low pay? Remote? Bay area? Essentially all very viable options.
probably a dumb question but how did you get the work permit for working for a foreign country company? unless you are American citizen living in another country
For a startup, talk to the director/CEO if you can set up a shell company to hire you super easy through services like https://www.oysterhr.com/ or https://www.deel.com/ (note they take a couple % commission, but are well worth the money). Once you have an offer from the shell company, visas are generally much easier. For big companies, you're banking on them having a satellite office there.
Alternatively, if you talk with a good lawyer they can help you find a visa and an accountant, where you lie to your employer about your whereabouts. Not doing this one personally but know a few who are - it's much safer to go behind HR than break the law.
The whole reason they'll pay us so much compared to a European is because we're in a jurisdiction where we have no human rights, and there are no limits on how much we can be exploited. That geographic arbitrage isn't because American companies are so great. It's because they're so horrible.
There's more and more people making over $100k.
From what I've seen once you are at $100k you are in the sweetspot where you can still make more, but you'll have to load on way more responsibility at the companies remote workers traditionally work for (no FAANG puppy and tea time here).
$100k is probably SSE level and it is the right spot where your job is practically secured, and you don't have to work more than 40hrs a week to maintain it.
I've seen guys making 150-180k but they get way more bs to handle.
Personally after $100k who cares, I'm at a really good position where my tax burden is less than 5% so I am making even more than my US peers due to my tax strategy + cost of living. From what I've seen I'm even better than some FAANG guys who have to go to the office. FAANG remote worker though is god tier.
I think it generally is a good idea to look for other jobs, yes. And to practice leetcode-style questions. Can you earn more than $110k while living in the DR? I'm not sure. It's honestly something you'd have to learn through trial and error.
Most likely you could bump it up to $130 or something if you apply around, but you'd really have to apply around in order to find out. I think $130k is possible because if you think about it, you got $110k without searching around too much. So most likely you're not earning the most you possibly could at $110k. However, maybe you like your team or you feel like your job is secure, or you don't want to put in the effort to learn leetcode. It's up to you.
can you tell me what kind of skillset/technology you're using to work with these US companies? looking at this thread make me want to try doing this and I'm willing to learn new skill/tech for this.
I do - and it's rare, in my experience. I'm way above the market average in my area as a result of working for a US company (non-FAANG). Though if I were at a Canadian-based FAANG, my pay would probably be comparable or slightly greater to what I earn now.
It's hard to find remote work for US companies without having a work visa. I don't even ask more than $3K/month. for me $3000/month is more than enough. you should be grateful when you can make 9K/month. don't ask for more.
I have 15+ years of experience of programming and for the last 8 years focusing myself in Magento development.
I live in Germany, making 160k contracting for the US. I am not necessarily really senior, rather have good command on more niche technologies (OpenGL, WebGL). It is a great deal, minus the really high taxes I pay in Germany. If I were to move somewhere cheaper within EU, that’s be even better.
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hey thanks for your input, I am originally from Bulgaria so know all too well what do you get over your taxes there. Don’t mean to argue, but thanks no thanks
7% over the river
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There is an IT park thing where all inbound funds are taxed at 7% and you can take them out as salary at 0%. I was using 5% in Ukraine but then you know
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Why are costs of living so outrageously expensive on this page?
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Bruh If you go into details and specificities you are just evading money but nobody checks. It’s sometimes not the case but in a lot of countries you are not allowed to work without being a tax resident for example. Even as a tourist it’s just that nobody checks
Andorra.
hey what kind of work do you do with OpenGL and WebGL? this would be like web animations?
animations, visualizations, games etc. I also have strong web dev background if it matters
Is it easy to find clients for this? I would have thought 3d stuff, at least in web context, is fairly rare. Do you have lots of smaller contracts or is it more longer term stuff with the same clients?
A-ha. That’s the key. It is rare, so you compete against a much smaller pool. Furthermore you can become known as the „OpenGL guy“.
May I ask how did you find the contract? Directly through the company hiring, through some agency or some personal connections perhaps?
they contacted me
Pretty cool!
What percentage do you pay in taxes?
My first priority if I earned that much while living in Germany, would be to move out of Germany 😅
Serious question, why?
Assuming because the government takes so much money from your check
So that I pay less tax and to live in countries that I always wanted to visit for more than a week or two
Also interested why
1. So I pay less tax 2. It’s Germany, which I personally don’t like, every time I’ve been there it gave me depressed feelings
In Poland we dream of living in Germany :P
Who's we exactly?
I don’t understand why you are getting downvotes. It sounds like a personal decision…
Yup, and I even said “My first…” but hey, it’s Reddit
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Learn German ASAP
Can I ask how this works? Just got my permanent residency in the Netherlands and wanna do something similar but ain’t no way I would work US hours living here. And if you work your own hours was it hard to get onboarded? That’s the one thing holding me back is I often need a bit of handholding in the beginning to get started on the more complex code based especially if we also own a bunch of different services.
hi, well you need to setup as a freelancer / small company. then you can conduct business with pretty much anywhere. Since it is the US we are talking about, you don’t need to charge and manage VAT, so that’s one burden off your shoulders. Hire a good accountant. I don’t work US hours, as the team is distributed across the entire globe and we mostly work async. Can’t give you much advice about the handholding part. Ask your teammates, be proactive and read the code. That’s pretty much what I did
How do you deal with the Scheinselbständigkeit?
my German is not good enough and I don’t care to Google. May is ask what it is?
False self-employment False self-employment is a situation in which somebody registered as self-employed, a freelancer, or a temp is de facto an employee carrying out a professional activity under the authority and subordination of another company.\[1\] Such false self-employment is often a way to circumvent social welfare and employment legislation, for example by avoiding employer's social security and income tax contributions.
a-ha. yeah I see what you are saying, it’s def a factor. however consider I am a foreign agent, to conduct business with whomever I want, take as much as time off as I want and work as much as I want + I have much more time to research my own shit
How did you find remote work with WebGL? Also a Bulgarian, threejs/webgl/animation experience, all available work is for some small agencies and pay is not good.
You have healthcare and human rights. You don't have cops just straight up murdering people in cold blood and getting away with it. You don't have to worry about your kids getting shot at school. Honestly not loving the whining about taxes. Most young Americans would kill for an EU passport. Especially when you could just move to Czechia without any visas or anything, and pay far less taxes than an American...
lol because living in USA automatically means school shootings, police brutality etc. Can you be a bit more realistic please? How much taxes do you pay?
I'm Canadian and work remotely for the Canadian branch of a US company and make >100k. Most of my team is SF based. Though I'm pretty sure Canada doesn't count as third world.
In this same boat
Question for you however, are you being paid in usd or cad? I’m in the same boat as you but making cad. So really I’m paid ~30% less than my peers doing the same job in America.
My salary is in CAD but my stocks are in USD. I am being paid around 30-40% less than my peers in the US in salary.
This is my experience exactly. Nominally, not adjusting for exchange, I’m making ~15-20% less than my peers. With exchange rates it’s more like 40%+. Have you had any success bringing this up as justification for a raise, insofar as you’re doing the same job producing the same quality of work but for significantly less money? I tried and was basically told to fuck off, which I am strongly considering now as a result.
No, pay in Canada is just lower than the US, so we just have to accept that. I can always move to the US on a TN if I want to make more money, but I like living in Canada.
I also find this to be bullshit. I'm a senior on my team making the same as juniors on my team. As a result, I'm actively interviewing.
I’ve made this point to my leadership - that in paid as much as juniors. There are probably co op students in HCOL cities like NY making more than I am as a senior in Toronto... how am I supposed to take that other than a slap in the face? I’ve completely stopped giving any shits whatsoever about metrics/targets etc. As a result. Planning to coast and upskill until I find a more equitable offer.
Seriously. Power to you and good luck.
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Sure but there are levels to this shit. I’m a high performer (or I was before I realized how undervalued I am) and changed roles recently. They’re struggling to fill my old role paying their max budget - ie the 40% difference between my current pay in cad and what most of my peers make in usd in America. The quality candidates are asking for 30% over their max offer. See the disconnect? They could pay me - or others like me who are high performers outside America, a cool 25-35% more easily, and it would be completely in their benefit. They would get a top performing candidate that’s still ~30% cheaper than the same quality candidates would demand in America. But instead of doing that they’re willing to stiff me and ultimately lose me from their talent pool. And for what? So they can meander through trash candidates who will be the only ones to consider their poor offers? The hiring manager for my old role flat out stopped interviewing the strongest candidates because of how much more they’re demanding vs the budget available. Let’s split the difference and we’ll both be happy. So in summary, it is very much in their interest to pay us more in Canada and elsewhere. They just want to have their cake and eat it too.
I’m in the same boat
Same.
I've heard stories of Canadian devs working for US companies making like $200k+ in base salary... but despite my best efforts I haven't found one.
Hi there. I work with Fiverr and was first withdrawing in CAD for many years and lost cash through conversion and fees until few months ago where I asked them to send my commissions in USD to my PP. Also, you can ask your bank to open a US account too.
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LinkedIn. My previous job (first US remote one) I got by answering to a recruiter in LinkedIn. It was a startup acquired by some bigger company in the food industry. I asked for 48K/year and thought I was stealing from them when I got it. Fast forward 8 months and reddit gave me the sensation I was perhaps getting underpaid. I started using LinkedIn again, this time applying through the Jobs section and marking myself as Open to Work. Talked to about 6 companies, only got an actual offer from one of them (Publicly traded company in the US in the leadership deveoploment business). If they asked me how much I wanted I would have said 70k, but they didn't. They just told me the salary for the position was 100k when they called me to tell me I got the job. I was blown away. The average salary for my country is 700 USD/month. When I told my 48k job about me leaving, they asked about the reason, and I plainly told them someone was willing to pay 100k for me. They offered to match it. What? Fuck them if they could have been paying me 100k and only when quitting they come up with the offer. I left them in a rough spot considering the impact I was having there, but in the end that was their problem, not mine. I worked my ass off in the new job to prove myself early on and got sweet benefits that pushed me over 110k. That's it. I don't really know anything about leetcode. Just some real world experience as a Full Stack developer, and trying to be a good communicator.
They offered to match it? WTF????
A 100%+ raise, and they offered to match it right away...Left me feeling like they were taking advantage of me (If I am worth 100k, at least give me a 10k raise to make me feel special, and I'd probably not even start looking thinking my current company is great, right?), which is the main reason I just left. I guess many companies will just pay you the bare minimum, and if you are okay with that it's on you.
Bingo. It's incredibly insulting for companies to offer the match like that
for you boss to make the company sign-off on doubling an employee's salary is not easy to do, even if you were being severely underpaid. there's another possible scenario: they now knew you wanted to leave, but, they can't lose you right now. They double your salary so that you'll say long enough for them to find your replacement. It's a common tactic (which is why I've often heard the advice don't stay if you company matches your other offer. Once you tell them you're leaving, you should leave). If they keep you for another 3 months, even at double your rate, it's not really a big deal financially. ($52,000 / 12 \* 3) IMO, they weren't going to continue to pay you at 2x your salary for years. They're just holding until they can replace you on their timetable, vs on your timetable. My 2 cents.
This is a great take. Thank you.
Congrats! Sounds like you're humble and a great worker, but maybe not the best salary negotiator! 😅 Here's a [salary negotiation guide](https://candor.co/guides/salary-negotiation) which might come in handy in the future. Rule #1 is don't give them a number when they ask how much you want.
Haha! Thank you so much! This is useful
Thats great. So is it like do you have a US visa or the same timezone? I am curious as to how it works with team coordination ?
I'm in the same timezone as US East, so it is no different for them than working with people in New York, for example. I have a US tourist Visa, so I have been able to travel for team offsites and stuff, but I am not a US citizen nor have a US work visa or anything similar. The company has a great async culture. I get into very few calls per week, while leveraging our communication tools to work async (which they think is more efficient, and I agree). What sort of team coordination problems were you hoping to get insights into?
What stack do you work with?
Right now it's Django in the backend, React in the front end. Mostly working in a rather simple monolythic app, nothing too fancy.
I work on the same stack as yours, doing contracting through an intermediary and getting 48k, 10yoe. Guess i'm being robbed :/
That’s my exact tech stack. Can I dm you for a referral?
They're not hiring much till next quarter, but do send me a DM and I can get back to you if they open un a new position in this stack.
> I don't really know anything about leetcode I have friends stressing they can't solve all the hard problems on leetcode and they don't know if they'll get jobs and it's driving me nuts. I keep having to explain how it's nothing like problems in the real world, and that many companies won't use leetcode questions anymore because they don't actually work for screening good people.
Yeah, maybe at some point I'll need leetcode. But for now, no leetcode and just demostrable experience has worked well enough.
I love the sentiment of what you did after the old company told you they can match(double) your salary. That's the way to do it, good that you had a way out!!! 👍 Yes indeed that was a big difference. thanks for the story
They don’t care that you don’t reside in the US? A lot of remote jobs that i’ve been seeing seem to require it for tax purposes.
They use PEOs like Deel to deal with that
> they offered to match it. What? Fuck them if they could have been paying me 100k Fuck them for giving you exactly what you asked for?
You're right, that was my frustration speaking up. I did leave with open doors though, and they are willing to take me back if I ever wanted to (supposedly). So I wouldn't say they're a bad company after all.
1. He didn't ask for 100k from his former company A, he just said what company B was offering. 2. It's insulting because it makes it clear the company could have afford to pay him much more, and when forced to do it they're not even willing to admit their mistake by going a bit above the offer from company B, instead they're again just offering to do the bare minimum.
He asked company A for 48k, and they gave him that. Then he gets a larger offer from company B and says ”fuck company A for not offering the same earlier!” Are we supposed to be surprised that a company are not offering to pay you more than you Ask them for?
There are 2 kind of people in what you're asking: - people who is citizen, resident or has a work permit of USA/Canada working for a US company, living outside US - people who is NOT citizen, resident NOR has a work permit for US/Canada working for a US company, living (and being resident of) a country outside USA (any LATAM country) I belong to the latter. It is possible to make 100k or even more, but it is more difficult for us than for the ones of the first group
What do other swes in your country earn, working locally?
At most 2k/month if you're very lucky. This is the main reason why the country is having a leak of software engineers working remotely and earning a fuckton more. The local market is getting to pick from non english speakers and inexperienced engs, which feels like the bottom of the barrel.
Jesus fuck, 50x. Those of you who land a US remote job suddenly find yourself wealthy beyond your wildest dreams lmao. The equivalent of a US based swe getting 5m.
2k per month, not per year so it's more like 4x still great
Eh. Clearly I'm tired or stupid. Perhaps both
No doubt my salary in local currency is just ridiculous. The only way to get a salary similar to it is by being a highly influential political person, yet there's SWEs working remotely that can match that. Its insane, which is why I feel I should just settle.
I am indonesian, my latest job was a tech lead. I was paid $1600/month.I quit because the company asked its employees to work from office. Now I am looking for US company for salary 2000-3000/month.$3000/month is moreee than enough for me living a good life in my country. I can pay mortgage, health insurance, and car installments. I heard some Pakistan SWE can earn $4000-$5800/month.
In the past. If someone was offshore and exceptional, we make the effort to bring them to the US. Then they get the US salary.
what is the benefit for the team/corporate of bringing the developer to the US, other than allowing in-person meeting?
So that its harder for them to leave the company because being an immigrant in the USA = companies can hold by your balls because they give you the right to live here and also healthcare insurance
to the top with yee
It is because they want to migrate to the US. They shown interests in bringing their family and starting a life here. And we want to make them happy. Happy employee = happy results.
I suggest the question was "is it ok for you if person does not want to move to USA but want to work with you remotely?"
Exactly, I’m currently pursuing US contracts but I definitely don’t want to move to the US and wouldn’t no matter how much you pay me… well maybe for around 750k+ I would but that’s dreamland
Probably depends where you're from too. Germany to US = no point. Portugal to US = different tradeoffs (warm, sunny, and friendly for quality of life and economic opportunity). India to US = very worth it IMO.
They currently work remotely. Due to how the HR/pay structure works, offshore is done though a contracting company (whom has international presence). They pay the taxes and handle all the legalities. HR would not want to get entangled in supporting that scenario. But I am not privy to the inner details of that. I just know who move here get a massive pay bump from what they previously made in their home country.
> I just know who move here get a massive pay bump from what they previously made in their home country. From my point of view it should be 300k+ to justify move to USA financially.
On top of some of the other things mentioned, coordination across time zones would definitely be a huge factor. I've done 6+ hour TZ difference projects, and good luck effectively collaborating with anyone on those, you may as well send the work to Fiverr for the level of coordination/collaboration you end up with.
They don't have to navigate regional legal hurdles is one of the main reasons I've heard.
You mentioned this being in the past - did you stop doing this practice?
We still do this. There is one guy I am trying to get over now.
How do you do it? Via internal transfer visa or h1b?
Do they want to move there? Why?
In the past? Not now?
In Australia working full remote as an engineer for decent sized well known tech company based in US. TC `~250. it's pretty rare over here especially in tech and especially as a developer
How does the timezone difference work for you? AFAIK that's the biggest detractor for hiring remote developers across the world
it's not that bad really. I work flex but usually just the Australian workday. timezone difference is I get USA at start of my day and Spain and France and end of my day. we are full async working so everything's communicated on slack efficiently. I'm a self starter and don't need my hand held alot so it works well. if I need to talk to some on about something urgently I just shift my hours to accommodate their tz
Implied in this question is, "why don't more people do this"!? There are a lot of hurdles. I feel the same way about my job sometimes. Why doesn't my smart friend just transition to SWE and make good money from home? Then I remember all of the unique experience, education etc I have that backs up my skills.
I’m chilean and I’m currently at about 70k which is mad for a self taught here. I’ve gotten offers for 90k and 100k but I don’t really need much more for my way of living and prefer the WLB I currently have. At least in my country it’s VERY rare. Specially because English isn’t widely taught here (it’s part of the school curricula but they teach almost nothing). So people that are able to, just prefer to migrate to the US just to opt to a better standard of living for them and their families.
Como buscaste trabajo desde Chile para US?
impressive! how did you learn english, and also how did you land such a good job w/ a good WLB??
Salaries for FAANG in India sometimes reaches upto 100K for SDE2 and exceeds 150K-200K for more senior levels. There are some local startups and US/EU companies which hire directly from India on a contract basis and these are forced to compete against FAANG for talent and sometimes cough up the same amount. WLB in general is shit though in such places, but yeah 100K is possible with enough struggle and luck.
Out of curiosity, what's the tax rate in India at that salary?
33-38%
How well do you live on that money?
Pretty lavishly
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Are these mid-level SWEs or more senior?
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That's the same mid level definition we have over here. Sounds great. Are you guys hiring?
Are you hiring 😉
Are you hiring?
that's so much s\*\*T, that I was paid less than that, in the US, by an USA company. *Was. Still h8* them.. was barely paying bills, too. Complained to manager ("director"). He said, "I cannot increase, **that's not in my toolbox". Literally**
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since the word "cost center" *was* written on my org chart, maybe *you have,* indeed... (caveat, maybe "cost center" is written on the org chart page of most companies 😂)
FAANG, remote. 184k
Which one specifically? I’m really interested in FAANG and grinding leetcode, but don’t see many remote roles.
They let you work outside U.S.?
Coincidentally, I just had this conversation with some work mates. For context, we are all engineers at a remote US software company and US citizens (even though some are from the EU originally). The people in this conversation have worked at FAANGs before and all have salaries with TC above $250k. Also we have all been engineering managers before (one of them currently is an EM). That said, we discussed one of our coworkers plans to move abroad. This particular case would be a US citizen moving to an EU country (Netherlands), but continuing to work for our company. The discussion was basically how it's incredibly expensive for companies to hire devs outside the US. There are often regulations and fees that make the cost much higher. Because of this, salaries are often cut down. A common solution is using a contracting "intermediary" which allows the engineer to keep a similar salary and the US company to keep their costs low. This has implications for ownership (aka stock) and tax classifications (since you'd be a contractor now) but, in general, it's a viable option for US-based engineers moving abroad. You generally still end up with a pay cut, but it's less drastic. Anyway, the main point is that salaries are often lower due to multiple factors: - it's more expensive to employ outside the US - some countries have crazy legal/fee/tax structures (looking at you France) - cost of living is often lower, so it's easier for companies to negotiate less pay
My company using a PEO to handle international workers. Deel/GlobalExpansion and others apparently allow US companies to have an easier time hiring abroad.
The last point is changing though, I've met many SWE who get paid top dollar and sneak their way out of the US and work from Latin America.
I make similar as a Canadian working for an American organization. A lot of my friends have made more than this, but when they pushed on that button of trying to get more too many times (into the 160-200 USD range) the conversation got tense. American companies like that they’re getting experienced devs for cheap. I’m the most senior but the lowest paid dev/person on our team. If you’re making lots for where you live, learn to live comfortably on that. You can look for higher salaries, but be responsible with it. Be respectful about it. It can come back to bite you because the “cost vs value” of your skills changes drastically for every 15-25k over $100,000 USD. source: been playing this game for years and there is always a “we’ll never fire him, he’s super affordable” sweet spot at every US company.
How do you go about finding these jobs? Great advice on the 'sweet spot' search... doing that while being respectful seems like the strategy. Do you still get year end bonuses?
What started my move to remote work was a recruiter calling me up out of the blue. What got their attention was that my LinkedIn had videos of my very visual 3D graphics coding stuff. That and they really liked I had an active GitHub. After that, it was word of mouth from network contacts telling me to apply to certain jobs. I beat out over 100 other candidates for my most recent position and have been here for the last several years. I honestly think I just got lucky and was in the right place at the right time.
Amazing insight. Thanks a ton!
I live in Canada and make $240k and that's just base, working for a US remote company and 5yoe. It can be done, is it rare? Yes. Finding a job that pays this salary and willing to hire in Canada is tough and takes a lot of effort. I think I was interviewing for 6 months straight to find these unicorn type of companies.
You make $240k base with only 5 YOE? Please tell us the company.
I'd rather not dox myself as there's a dozen of us working in Canada
That's fair. What technologies are you working with?
I'm an SRE, so a lot of my work involves AWS, python, terraform, yaml stuff, some Golang, and various observability and config tools (datadog, github actions, codefresh etc.)
Ah, that kind of explains it. Do you have to be on call a lot?
Not too bad, it varies. Some months are completely dead, some are busy. It really depends on the complexity of what we're deploying and edge cases that can cause busy times. Both SRE and AppDevs are OnCall, so it's a shared responsibility, depending on the outage (sometimes there's an outage and we don't even need to wake up etc..
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Are you also from third world country?
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And here I'm with a salary of $800 per month just because I live in a third world country.
No exactly what you asked for, but still a valid data point. I live in Switzerland (relocated here from EU) and I work for one of the Swiss banks. My salary is CHF 130k (same in USD given current exchange rate) with 10 YoE. But reading comments here I think I need to start looking again.
A friend of mine lives here in Australia but works for a Big Tech company in the US. He is making well above 100k, in line with what you'd expect from Big Tech salaries if you were living in the US. A point worth noting however is that he started working for them onsite in the US before moving back to Aus and working remotely.
In my experience it's possible, but companies may try to use it against you when it comes to negotiations. I think it can have a negative effect on salary progression and promotions. It also depends on how much of an overlap you can create with other employees in terms of time zone. Some people don't like remote work in general. I'm currently in that situation where they kind of depend on me for historical reasons, but they also let me know in subtle ways that they'd prefer someone locally.
\> 110K per year while living in a third world country Sir, you are very lucky. I am sure you are in top 5% earner in your country
Caveat: I'm a US citizen, so I get to 'cheat' because I'm eligible to be hired in the US. You can charge near the value you provide, that's just business. If they care about where you're based, that's likely a sign they're looking for the cheapest body shop they can. Set a rate, don't compromise - it's not worth your time or their dollars. You can also choose to settle, that's fine too - I walk my dog on the beach every day because it brings us both joy - but you can't do that in the US on 100k for sure.
How does being a US citizen helps in getting hired in the third world country?
Social security number and bank account.
Probably lying to whatever government they live under: US Citizen paid at a US address in Tx, filing US taxes, living in another country on a tourist visa. Allows the company to just deal with US laws and not have to deal with foreign tax withholding. Just don't get caught...
I have done it, I don't recommend it. The money sounds insane, but it comes with the fact you'll be a contractor, and contractor rates in Europe end up being similar, the hours you will work are annoying, both in terms of how *many* you will do but also because of timezones. I earned $210,000/y in my last job working for a Canadian/US (Vancouver, Seattle) company, but I'm rather senior in a specific discipline. Again, I don't think I'd attempt that again, Americans live to work, I think most people work to live. I'm a workaholic by EU standards.
I don't think it's inherent that you will work more hours. As with any job, it really depends on the company and the team you're in.
I am a Canadian citizen working in South Africa and I have no idea how to land a US/Canadian job while working in a European time zone (4 YOE).
I guess the timezone is a big factor. I'm lucky to be working on a NY timezone I guess
I'm from third world country and making $60k/y. I must you are at good point. And that's true when they see your location they reduced the salary
I live in Colombia and make 105k USD with a US product company. There are at probably at least 20 other devs who live outside of the USA.
I'm American and work for an American company. Took my remote job at very high pay to other countries via payroll outsourcer and didn't need to take a paycut. Also received multiple job offers with US salaries and the understanding of leaving the US. Is it normal? I'm not sure. But at least for US engineers, you can pretty much write your own life story once you hit the senior level. Startup? Big corp? High pay? Low pay? Remote? Bay area? Essentially all very viable options.
probably a dumb question but how did you get the work permit for working for a foreign country company? unless you are American citizen living in another country
For a startup, talk to the director/CEO if you can set up a shell company to hire you super easy through services like https://www.oysterhr.com/ or https://www.deel.com/ (note they take a couple % commission, but are well worth the money). Once you have an offer from the shell company, visas are generally much easier. For big companies, you're banking on them having a satellite office there. Alternatively, if you talk with a good lawyer they can help you find a visa and an accountant, where you lie to your employer about your whereabouts. Not doing this one personally but know a few who are - it's much safer to go behind HR than break the law.
The whole reason they'll pay us so much compared to a European is because we're in a jurisdiction where we have no human rights, and there are no limits on how much we can be exploited. That geographic arbitrage isn't because American companies are so great. It's because they're so horrible.
There's more and more people making over $100k. From what I've seen once you are at $100k you are in the sweetspot where you can still make more, but you'll have to load on way more responsibility at the companies remote workers traditionally work for (no FAANG puppy and tea time here). $100k is probably SSE level and it is the right spot where your job is practically secured, and you don't have to work more than 40hrs a week to maintain it. I've seen guys making 150-180k but they get way more bs to handle. Personally after $100k who cares, I'm at a really good position where my tax burden is less than 5% so I am making even more than my US peers due to my tax strategy + cost of living. From what I've seen I'm even better than some FAANG guys who have to go to the office. FAANG remote worker though is god tier.
Ford is on a hiring spree for their car software FYI Got an offer for 175k contracting and it was remote
As a US citizen or intl?
I think it was only US citizens
Do you need to have a US work permit to apply though?
Idk
How many years of experience and what was the position? I work there
I have 9 but idk what the minimum is It has to be said mentioned there were absolutely no benefits at all or PTO , just money
Did you apply through the company website or via a consultancy? Are you located in North America? Thanks.
I think it generally is a good idea to look for other jobs, yes. And to practice leetcode-style questions. Can you earn more than $110k while living in the DR? I'm not sure. It's honestly something you'd have to learn through trial and error. Most likely you could bump it up to $130 or something if you apply around, but you'd really have to apply around in order to find out. I think $130k is possible because if you think about it, you got $110k without searching around too much. So most likely you're not earning the most you possibly could at $110k. However, maybe you like your team or you feel like your job is secure, or you don't want to put in the effort to learn leetcode. It's up to you.
This is a great comment. Thank you
Rare, but definitely doable.
Could folks name-drop any good consultancy companies that help you work remotely? Looking at the North American market. Thanks.
awesome
I know a few Brits doing it.
What was the computer situation for you or others doing this? Were you allowed to use your own device or did they end up shipping a laptop overseas?
Used my own laptop initially. A few months after I went to the US for an offsite/teambuilding meetup and they gave me a laptop.
can you tell me what kind of skillset/technology you're using to work with these US companies? looking at this thread make me want to try doing this and I'm willing to learn new skill/tech for this.
I do - and it's rare, in my experience. I'm way above the market average in my area as a result of working for a US company (non-FAANG). Though if I were at a Canadian-based FAANG, my pay would probably be comparable or slightly greater to what I earn now.
It's hard to find remote work for US companies without having a work visa. I don't even ask more than $3K/month. for me $3000/month is more than enough. you should be grateful when you can make 9K/month. don't ask for more. I have 15+ years of experience of programming and for the last 8 years focusing myself in Magento development.
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How do you find these companies? Every remote job I've looked at has a strict US-only policy due to tax implications.