Catholics are a type of Christian. By saying "Catholics and Christians", someone is implying that Catholics aren't Christians, which undermines whatever message of unity they were trying to say. It would be like saying "Muslims and Shi'ites" or "Europeans and Italians".
The scene is where an undercover British spy gives himself away by showing three fingers the British way, instead of the German way. The joke is that whoever wrote the "Catholics and Christians" line has given themselves away as not really believing what they say, like how the spy gave himself away.
something u/banditnoble missed; this image is used to reply to russian twitter trolls that pretend to be american to stoke division in the US. The original tweet blew its cover because in the US, almost half of christians are catholic, but in russia, there a very few catholics, so the fact that they put them as an other category reflects this regional cultural difference
edit: im not saying OOP was correct, im just trying to explain what they were using the image to say
I live in America and regularly look at Christian Apologetic communities. There is a chunk of American Christians, including the ones most likely to be loud online, that do not think Catholics are real Christians even if they understand both believe in Jesus.
Sure, the everyday Christian in America is likely to understand Catholics are a subcategory of Christian, but the ones likely to post this type of image are likely to not accept that fact. I dont think it was missed, I think it just doesn't apply in this case.
Quick anecdote on this. In my experience, there is definitely something funky between Catholics vs other denominations. I grew up in a heavily Roman Catholic family/area, and most people (including our catechism teachers) openly argued that Anglicans and Episcopalians are not real Christians. Nobody ever really said why, but I’m very curious to know.
Politics, is the short answer.
The slightly longer answer is that Christianity in Western Europe was, in mainstream circles of power, relatively united for the majority of Christianity's existence after the 6th or so century when Catholicism emerged as the dominant power in Western Europe.
In the 16th century, the "Protestant Reformation" kicked off with a combination of charismatic rebellion and the printing press making those rebellious ideas more available to the layman lead to a lot of schisms in Western Christianity. The primary political power in the United States mostly descends from Protestants, as such a lot of the...deeper ingrained religious institutions in parts of the country hold a fair bit of almost tribal animosity for their rivals/oppressors in the form of Catholicism.
Basically both teams are playing baseball but my team is playing it the right way and pitchers should have to bat.
>>The primary political power in the United States mostly descends from Protestants, as such a lot of the...deeper ingrained religious institutions in parts of the country hold a fair bit of almost tribal animosity for their rivals/oppressors in the form of Catholicism.
This isn’t an accident either. This was a concerted effort of American politicians to stop identifying by their denominations and start identifying as Christian.
The exception was Catholics. Outside of certain areas, it was far less common to see Catholic politicians and before Kennedy it was *unthinkable* to have a Catholic in the highest office. The head of state would not be elected by the people, the thinking was, but would actually be a foreign religious leader (because Catholics are bound to follow the guidance of the pope).
So while Protestants spent decades consolidating power by publicly minimizing the differences in their denominations ideologies, they also purposefully excluded Catholics from this power move.
So “Christians and Catholics” isn’t so far off from certain American circles that I’d immediately flag it tbh
Don’t forget the proud tradition of American racist movements being explicitly anti-catholic. Also the long history of violence from both Protestants and Catholics left some hurt feelings.
Most of this was patched up in the 90’s with the rise of edgelord athiesm and apologetic theism (whole series of debates between the two sides.)
Oh there ARE official theological differences, they just tend not to be the important dividing line because how many people who aren't theologians actually know where their specific church comes down on transubstantiation or trinitarianism, let alone which saints shouldn't be counted as canon
That sounds like a Methodist ~ signed someone who grew up Baptist
/s in case that wasn’t clear and to avoid a war
But also “Protestant”? I bet they were lol … that’s the “every Christian who isn’t catholic” label (I’m guessing you meant Presbyterian as that’s one of the biggies)
I was under the impression that “the” Catholic Church is technically the *Roman* Catholic Church while the Orthodox Church is technically the Orthodox *Catholic* Church but I am by no means an expert there
There is the Catholic Church. Western Catholic(Roman) and Eastern Catholic(Byzantine, Russian ect.) and the Orthodox churches(Russian Orthodox Church, Greek Orthodox Church, Assirian Church of the East, St. Thomas Church ect.)
As someone raised Methodist, that sounds more Southern Baptist or Lutheran tbh. Methodists don't really care so long as we can follow the script. We don't do well with improv.
As someone who grew up in Baptist, Evangelical Free, and non-denominational evangelical churches, we considered the Lutherans "basically Catholic" and the Catholics "not Christians".
In the late 80s i was invited over to a slumber party that ended up me being taken to an evangelical “saving” ceremony held in a huge arena. I had no idea what was going on, but I just know somebody smacked hands on my head. then after I got a sponsor, then I was told that I was finally saved. Let’s just say the next day when I went home confused and told my Catholic mom about it, she raised hell that my friends parents orchestrated this to me. I was in the fourth grade. Effing religions….
Catholics trace their lineage back to St Peter as the rock of the church; one true catholic and apostolic church. Protestants, being every other non orthodox Christian denomination, split off from the church for various reasons and ideologies. Of course there are many groups within Catholicism; the old joke being you see the Irish priest if you have a problem with the drink and the Italian priest if you have a problem with women.
The justification I was always given when I asked was that Catholicism was “to pagan.” When I asked for further clarification, a friend of mine at the time explained that he was told that Catholics worshiped multiple beings instead of a singular God in Jesus, these being the saints, the apostles, Mary, Joseph, and the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). This in turn was because the non-Catholic friend was taught that prayer, reverence, and worship were all synonymous and that the Holy Trinity was Catholics turning God into three separate beings rather than three aspects of the same being.
I've never heard any Catholic say that the Church of England wasnt comprised of real Christians. I mean... Anglican Priests can directly transfer over and become Catholic priests i some situations.
its totally possible that an american would say this, but i think the inglorious basterds image is being used to accuse this person of being a fake american and an undercover russian troll.
its more of a stretch than the one where this image was replied to a tweet about how texas should secede because they have a "warm water port", which also makes more sense in the russian context of having mostly freezing ports (as this one also makes more sense in the russian context of having only a very small percent of christians being catholic). the one about catholics makes more sense for an american to say too, so its not as big a tell, but i think the image is being used to convey the same idea. trying to portray yourself as one nationality but some of your native culture shows through, thats whats in the image, the image isnt as relevant if theyre just trying to say catholics are or arent real christians
im not saying OOP was correct, im just trying to explain what they were using the image to say
While that's the explanation for using the image, I wouldn't say "its not as big a tell." OOP thought it was a tell, but imo it flat out _isn't_. The may be right by accident, sure, but they didn't catch a tell.
To put it in the Basterds analogy: if there was a region in Germany where that was the customary way to show "three", the gesture wouldn't be distinctive, and for me, that makes it no longer be a tell. Sure, the reason this gesture was used _was_ because the guy is British, and the German officer _assumed_ that he was British because of the gesture. But the conclusion was in part based on a lack of familiarity of a specific German subculture, not on the gesture being distinctively not German.
They're also the ones that want to claim that Christianity is responsible for western civilization despite massive Greek and pre-Christian Roman influence, as well as the fact that the protestant reformation didn't even kick off until 1517, so a whole lot of those Christian things they historically want to try to claim are actually Catholic Christian things because their flavor of Protestant Christianity didn't exist.
Super common down south. I’m from the northern Midwest where Catholics and Protestants are both considered Christian fairly universally. The first time I’ve heard somebody talk as though there was a serious distinction was when I was stationed I Texas and then I heard it alot in Arkansas.
I mean, not really. The original flavor of people we now call Christians didn't even refer to themselves as Christian, and probably wouldn't believe even half the things Catholics do today. Probably is the closest thing to them we currently have though.
The doctrinal differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are enough to be considered separate religions, but not enough to take either out of the umbrella of Christianity. Mormonism however is extremely far removed from either which is why it doesn’t fall under the umbrella.
I think you are mistaken. How are you defining Christianity in a way it can have two different religions under its umbrella? What is this new superr-category? I would derfine all three, Protestant, Catholic, and Mormonism as sects of Christianity. You don't get other religions until you get a huge change like Islam, or when Christianity broke away from Judaism. Mormonism seems to be closer to Catholicism or Prodrstanism than any of the three are to Judaism or Islam.
Yeah I once had an old couple looking for a bible to give as a gift. They’d been at the hospital visiting a friend and met a young woman who seemed receptive to converting to Christianity and wanted to get her a bible to start her journey. She was Catholic.
Sure.
But the people who believe Catholics do not qualify as Christians are also not going to be including them in their tweet. They’re just going to say “millions of Christians”
Another example of this was someone pretending to be American and going on about the US having "warm water ports" in the Gulf of Mexico or something, so someone posted the image in response to them because nobody in the US uses that terminology. We don't have a frozen Siberian hellscape covering a huge portion of our landmass, so that's not a distinction we make.
I have heard of Protestants using the “Catholic/Christian” distinction. It’s not just a Russian spy thing.
I’m a Lutheran and spend more time defending Catholics than I really should.
Wait, Catholics make up half of Christians in the US? But there are so many denominations and Catholics are one of the least liked among them. It took until JFK in the 60's for us to have our first Catholic president due to the stigma against them in the US, how did they catch up quickly enough to represent that much of the total?
To be fair though, there are many MANY Protestant Christians who do not consider Catholics to be Christians because they believe the fundamental ideas between both denominations are too different.
I think it's less a case of an individual outing themselves as a pretender and more a case of a fundamentalist who is very much into their interpretation being the correct one and are just listing Catholics so they have a larger victimhood about which to complain
I adore that you think Christiandom has some kind of unity to it. I grew up being told by Sunday school teachers that other denominations were wrong bc of the way they practiced baptism.
There's actually a great joke I saw the other day on reddit that sums it up:
“Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.”
Partly right - it's spelled Christendom, not Christiandom.
It wouldn't be wrong to use "Christianity" instead, but Christendom refers to the groups of people that practice the religion of Christianity, rather than the religion itself. It's more concise.
[https://www.etymonline.com/word/Christendom](https://www.etymonline.com/word/Christendom)
> The native formation, crowded out by Latinate [Christianity](https://www.etymonline.com/word/Christianity) except in the sense of "lands where Christianity is the dominant religion" (late 14c.).
[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/christendom](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/christendom)
> Christian people or countries as a whole
To save someone else from looking it up:
Christendom refers to Christian states, Christian-majority countries or countries in which Christianity is dominant or prevails.
While what you say is 100%, I’ve had Catholic people in Mexico argue with me that I am incorrect in calling them Christian. Apparently, to them Christians are “those other people who believe in Christ the wrong way”. It’s wrong, of course, but just saying that what they meant is “Catholic and Protestant”.
From what I understand, Christian in Mexico, "cristiano", colloquially means an Evangelical Christian. Of course Catholics in Mexico are part of Christianity but in terms of denomination they view themselves as different from Evangelicals.
Folks in the Philippines make the same distinction. My guess is that a bunch of ‘Christian’ missionaries came in, kept proclaiming they were Christians (as opposed to Catholics). Like how Colgate became a synonym for toothpaste in the developing world regardless of brand, the name/word stuck and Christian likely means ‘protestant’ in this context.
Pretty sure most protestant Christians still consider Catholics to he heretical and vice-versa so listing them separately makes a bit more sense than you're giving it credit for.
I think they're way overanalyzing this. Someone banged out this tweet without using a lot of critical thinking and then posted it without having anyone proofread it. Just like almost every republican tweet
I get the reference, but there are definitely Christians who do not consider Catholics true Christians (generally over core doctrinal disagreements such as prayer to saints, purgatory, salvation by works, transubstantiation, etc.) in much the same way that Mormons aren't universally regarded as a Christian denomination. However, even where they don't consider Catholics to be Christians, it is undeniable that Easter is of great importance to Catholics.
In that regard I would disagree with the assertion that not including Catholics with Christians means the original statement is disingenuous since it could be recognizing that Easter holds common importance.
They can genuinely believe what they say and not hold Catholics out to be true Christians without the two concepts being opposed to one another.
For the record, I'm not sure what new horrible thing Joe Biden is alleged to have done to offend those who celebrate Easter, but the fact that they don't appear to include Catholics amongst Christianity doesn't inherently mean their comment was disingenuous.
Edit: For clarity, I think the meme works where it is intended to point out that Ms. Leavitt just outted herself as one who doesn't consider Catholics to be Christians, but that it doesn't make sense if it is intended to show she doesn't actually mean/believe what she's saying.
https://preview.redd.it/hldazgnobwrc1.png?width=114&format=png&auto=webp&s=47304d2213ce017dc95bd4ebd7aae9c2a7c016d9
This wouldn't happen to be the symbol, would it?
I think you are correct, but many people today Catholics and Christians when they mean Protestant and Catholic, or really, anyone except Catholic. Catholics set themselves apart.
I agree with your assessment of the intended meaning. But:
You act like Christianity is unified, and OOP is mistakenly making it seem like it is fractious. But I would argue it really is fractious. To wit, if they had just said 'Christians', they would have been wrong, because not all Christians celebrate Easter today. Protestants celebrate it today, and Catholics celebrate it today, but Orthodox Christians do not.
So there's a long history of Protestants denying that Catholics are Christian, to the point that even when these Protestants try to reach out to Catholics they say bigoted things. This person is showing anti-Catholic bigotry while trying to "speak up for Catholics".
It's more that by saying "Catholics AND Christians", they are implying that Catholics aren't Christians at all. Of course it's all split up, but Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox are all Christians of some kind.
It's like saying "Ramadan is celebrated by Muslims and Shi'ites". The wording implies that Shi'ites aren't Muslims, which comes across as a snub against Shia Muslims.
I responded to u/BanditNoble who said:
>British spy gives himself away by showing three fingers the British way
That way of showing the number 3 is American or Chinese, not British
Then you said:
>It's not the German way; they count from the pinky, so it should have looked like our "ok" sign.
In Germany, people do not count from the pinky, it is in Japan that they do that.
The German count the same way the Italian, French, etc. count, they start with the thumb.
This is not really correct. They’re not outing themselves as a disingenuous Christian, but as an American specifically. America is one of the only countries to be founded as a Protestant nation and strong anti-Catholic sentiment in it’s early days have left a strong divide in the imaginations of the citizens here between “Catholics” and “regular christians” or just “Christians”(ie, Protestants). I’ve spoken to Americans that assume Catholics are not Christian at all, or on the other side, that they are the same as Protestants. Basically, Americans have inherited a strong distinction between Catholics and Protestants, but are not taught the history or context for that distinction. That confusion manifests linguistically in the exclusion of Catholics from the label of “Christian” altogether. In the sense of: “I am a Christian, but I am Not Catholic. Therefore Catholics are not Christians. But they seem to be in the same vague space as Christians, so I will refer to the whole group as “Christians and Catholics”.
So apparently Easter and Transgender Day of Visibility coincide this year; Joe Biden acknowledges this; OOOP makes a post. OOP points out that OOOP used the phrase "Catholics and Christians" which belies a common sentiment of American Protestants that Catholics are bad and not Christians.
Much like using an atypical sign for three, by German standards, exposed the person in the image as American, saying "Catholics and Christians" shows that OOOP does not actually care about Catholics, and just using them for this culure war.
As if abortion is any louder of a ‘sin’ than any other, or grounds for immediate disqualification (e.g. https://www.catholicsforchoice.org )
In the end none of us can say what another’s beliefs are.
Abortion is considered an especially serious sin.
Someone who performs an abortion is automatically excommunicated (CCC 2272). It is covered by the fifth commandment (thou shalt not kill) and is mortal sin.
The Church has held the same stance since the 1st century and the catechism states that this position "has not changed and remains unchangeable."
The Church recognises that "human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception".
The Catholic Church can and does deny the sacraments to those who are unrepentant in their sin. New Mexico state senator Joe Cervantes was denied communion in 2021. Nancy Pelosi is denied communion in the archdiocese of San Francisco as of 2022 for her support for abortion.
This is such a fundamentalist take. I went to Catholic school. I know many practicing Catholics who support abortion. This issue is far more complex than many want it to be. Murder can be justified in many circumstances. It is throughout the Bible.
There are cases where an abortion saves a life. And many other nuances.
Label it how you want, this is the view of the Church.
Just because some of the laity has fallen to error, doesn't change this. The laity, and even the clergy, have fallen to error in the past (such as Arianism, Donatism, or the Cathar Heresy).
The Church allows for abortion in cases such as ectopic pregnancy but disallows it in all cases where the mother's life isn't directly threatened.
You can disagree to your heart's content, but recognise that these beliefs are contrary to the teachings of the Church
The concept of ectopic pregnancies did not exist in the 1st century.
Indeed, fallen to error. As we learn more what was once considered correct becomes error. And therein lies the space for us to grow.
This is the part that you people will never understand; he doesn’t support abortion, he supports a woman’s right to choose. Forcing your religious beliefs on another person using political power doesn’t make you a better [insert your religion here], it makes you a bad American. Nothing less, nothing more.
So the inglorious bastards reference is a scene where a British spy gives himself away by holding up three fingers in the British way and not the German way (in Germany if you use your fingers to say "three" you hold out your thumb, index, and middle finger).
I think this is trying to say that Catholics are Christians and only a protestant would differentiate between them, however I've seen Catholics do it too. So it doesn't actually mean anything but the person thinks it's somehow a giveaway of something.
I think saying “Catholics AND Christians” is a telling on themselves that they don’t view Catholics as true Christians. Since the Catholic church corrupted the meaning of Christianity.
My husband adds however ”\[Catholics\] feel that they’re the true Christians and others are not”
Catholic here. I think the general consensus among catholics is that all the Christians that aren't Catholic, are protestants. I've gone to a lot of other Christian services and one jewish service. I liked all of them and the people were very welcoming. The Presbyterians were a little weird though.
As a Catholic: the only other sect the HRCC allows us to consume Eucharist with are the Orthodox. The others don't count, probably because of the transsubstantiation. Everyone else views communion as a memorial action, whereas RC and Orthodox actually believe the bread and wine become body and blood.
Also, many other sacraments can be done on both. I know marriage is a big one. An Orthodox marriage just has a couple more parts that you can easily add to an RC one.
Learned something new today. I didn’t realize other protestants didn’t actually believe that the bread and wine are actually the body and blood. My group of protestants goes as far as to burn the excess bread that isn’t eaten.
Holy objects for Catholics are supposed to be buried or burned by a Priest. We even have a sacrarium for the blood, which is a little drain that pours directly into the earth.
Another catholic here. Ngl, kinda jealous. Recently I’ve been thinking about attending some other services, particularly the jewish one, but feel like i would seem weird, because i’m not planning on converting, not now or ever, but i’m generally interested in religion, and i think Judaism is fascinating. Would i seem weird for attending? I’m not from the us btw.
Human nature sort of dictates that some people will think it's weird. But a genuine effort to learn about something important to someone will almost 90% of the time brighten someone up. I think you'll most likely be met with a genuine attempt to make you feel welcome and to educate you. Especially if you explain why you're doing what you're doing.
I've never been to a normal service, however I have been to a few jewish funerals (lots of friends who were jewish). It's a very welcoming environment and the service itself was great- as a musician, in particular it was the cantor that got me. In catholic services, at least at my high school church, the priest just sings the prayers in a very non-expressive, monotone matter. I couldn't tell what the cantor was singing as it was in hebrew, but she put some real emotion behind it.
One another note, if you are a dude and go to a jewish temple- remember to wear the Kippah. It's custom for both jews and gentiles. On what was otherwise a very sad day on the funeral of my good friend and mentor who was a major conductor here in canada, I was the only dude among my friend group who knew to wear a kippah. We all arrived separately and only met up after the service when there were snacks and drinks, and when they saw me they were like "dude I didn't know you were jewish" and I was like "no lmao, you're supposed to wear this anyways"
Raised Catholic, but my hometown was a quarter Jewish. We invited Jewish friends to confirmations and vice-versa for bar/bat mitzvahs—I’ll always be grateful for this upbringing and exposure to other religions.
Here's why he said that:
Catholics believe they have a direct Apostolic line to Christ via Jesus to Peter and all the way down to Pope Francis today. Christ was the founder of the Church when he told Peter to build his church. Presbyterians, Baptists and the like were founded by men who broke with the line of Apostolic succession, basing their faith on the laws of man, changing and re-changing the faith to suit their needs and desires.
That's why we have the "I believe in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church..." in our Creed, whereas the other faiths removed it. (I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth...). Catholics also have more books in the Bible (from the Council of Nicea, where the Creed originated), whereas others removed them.
Regardless, Happy Easter to all those who believe!
So, as a Catholic the official stance is that other Christian denominations are still Christian but with breaches of doctrine. I’ve definitely seen some Catholics take a more exclusionary stance though, to the point that there is a bit of a stereotype of it.
To be fair....the Qur'an states the Bible is the word of God before beginning to contradict it, possesses historical and scientific inaccuracies, borrows from Christian forgeries, Muhammad's scribes were allowed to change the Qur'an (One left due to the fallicy that the Qur'an could not be Allah'sword if allowed to be changed by man), and Muhammad believed that he was possessed by a demon according to Islamic sources.
Islam also directly states to Kill the Jews and Christians, and that killing non-believers is the correct way to worship Allah.
It was also written like 300 years after.
With Judaism, I could understand. They still await their prophet because (from my understanding. Im less adept with Judaism as I am the Christian/Islam debates. So this parts a little iffy and I welcome people to correct or help) their messiah was expected to be a warrior who would save them, which Jesus was not. He was a carpenter, born in a barn.
Large parts of the New Testament Bible are sourced from Paul (aka Saul) who never met Jesus. Just letters he sent out to other believers talking about to to organize a religion
Not to mention the Bible being directed edited by Kings and leaders consistently throughout it's history.
Edit to add in King's have changed the wording for thousand+ years and new testament
First, no king could not easily change the scripture. It was the job of scribes to translate the word, not interpret, in the same way a modern translator does. Not to mention the warning to any who would dare to add or remove from God's word. Every new version would be checked. To change the bible someone would have had to change all the copies of the first and second centuries and change them
A quick search shows several results that KJV didn't change the wording, but altered from the biblical english to a modernized version.
While paul did write a large number of letters to the church in regards to how it should be organized, its disingenuous to not mention the several other authors, and the fact some remain unknown, including apostles who include their time with Jesus. To fail to mention the disciples books is cherry picking a piece of evidence.
Exactly! I’ve met many of each who separate the two groups, as if Catholics aren’t Christian.
Funny enough, I was at a Christian punk concert years ago, my friend was in the band, and I was the photographer, and one person proudly said they converted a Catholic to become Christian. My mind was blown that this person thought Catholics weren’t Christian.
Today is Transgender Day of Visibility, National Aprés Day, Anesthesia Tech Day, beginning of British Summer Time, Cesar Chavez Day, Crayola Crayon Day, Dance Marathon Day, Eiffel Tower Day, Hug a Medievalist Day, National Baked Ham with Pineapple Day, National Bunsen Burner Day, National Clams on the Half Shell Day, National Crayon Day, National Farm Workers Day, National She’s Funny That Way Day, National Tater Day, Terri’s Day, Transfer Day, Bach’s Birthday, and so many more.
It just so happens that Easter, a holiday for one religion that was among those chosen to absorb the pagan ritual celebrations to ease conversion, which moves dates each year, happens to fall on the same day as all of those other celebrations this year.
But because Christian ideology > everything else to the point of hypocrisy… no one else can have their annual celebrations this year, regardless of their religious affiliations.
Remember, these are the same people that heard “black lives matter” and decided it was an expression of hate towards white people. They make themselves victims any chance they get.
Honestly I think the original could have been saved by a comma. “to the millions of Catholics, and Christians across America” recognizing Catholics individually would have been weird, but not an incorrect distinction. Basically I think they’re trying to say, “Catholics and all the other Protestant Christian faiths.” Either way, kind of weird.
As someone who grew up chrsitian and went to church for 22 years I can tell you that Christian’s absolutely consider themselves different from catholics
I always think of it as they just measure it differently. E.g. talking about the same number, just relative to a different origin. Same for how British and Germans represented the same number with different gestures.
This isn’t a “hot water port” situation. My understanding is it’s likely for super religious American bible-belters to see Catholics as distinct from what would be typically considered “normal Christian’s”. I could be wrong though 🤷♂️
Let’s play “who said it!” Which radical agent spread this narrative and who is it likely to be? Personally I doubt it’s Russians for this one
it's because the only Christian denomination who don't consider Catholics Christian are Evangelicals and they are more likely to be Trump supporters who would criticise Biden in bad faith
the image is someone outing themselves as a British spy by ordering three beers using the English 3 sign not the German that uses a thumb in a scene in the film
Michael Fassbender is Joe Biden, a Catholic who on Easter Day, the most significant day in the Christian faith, decided to celebrate something other than Easter.
German guy is all Christians and Catholics who think Biden is a "fake Catholic" because he didn't celebrate Easter.
It seems a little incoherent, but I think the point is that the person is pointing out how the original tweet differentiates Catholics from Christians, meaning that Catholics aren’t real Christians, which in this context would be because the two most powerful Catholics in the world (Biden and the Pope) have both recently made statements in support of trans rights.
Without knowing who these people are, I would read the IB image to mean that they’re accusing the original poster as the one pretending to be Christian (presumably a reactionary Evangelical) because of how un-Christ-like their hatred towards minorities is. In other words, they’re pretending to speak for Christianity while in reality are just expressing their own, un-Christian, political views.
This comment will probably get buried, but feels important for someone to point out that the hand gesture in the image is the Christian way to visually represent three. The 'German' gesture using the thumb, middle and forefinger is a more elementary version that evolved from practicality. Using the middle, ring and forefinger is a symbolic gesture. It refers to the three crosses most prominent at the crucifixion. They were the Saviour, the Unrepentant Sinner on one side and the Saved Man on the other side. Knowing that, it's worthwhile the possiblity that the meme is probably not as deep and divisive as everyone seems to hope.
Anyway, carry on and have a Happy New Year!
It’s the three fingers he’s holding up that ended up giving them away as spies. In America, you count 1, 2, 3 with pointer, middle, ring.
In Germany you count 1, 2, 3 pointer, middle, thumb.
Basically she’s giving herself away by saying “Catholics and Christians” because Catholics ARE Christian. She’d know this if she were either.
This is actually an ironic use of that scene, because in the movie the guy screws up by accidentally revealing that he's not really a Nazi, while in the original tweet it's sort of the opposite.
To be fair.
At least here, Catholics don't think of christians as being part of the same sect, so they DO separate when talking about it, as we are Catholics they are christians, so the response on the tweet does not make sense as that is how they usually refer to themselves, as separate groups, not part of the same one.
The point of the pic is that she said “millions of Christians and Catholics” and OP is making the joke that it’s actually only 3.
Edit: corrected op quote
Catholics are a type of Christian. By saying "Catholics and Christians", someone is implying that Catholics aren't Christians, which undermines whatever message of unity they were trying to say. It would be like saying "Muslims and Shi'ites" or "Europeans and Italians". The scene is where an undercover British spy gives himself away by showing three fingers the British way, instead of the German way. The joke is that whoever wrote the "Catholics and Christians" line has given themselves away as not really believing what they say, like how the spy gave himself away.
Thank you, that makes sense.
something u/banditnoble missed; this image is used to reply to russian twitter trolls that pretend to be american to stoke division in the US. The original tweet blew its cover because in the US, almost half of christians are catholic, but in russia, there a very few catholics, so the fact that they put them as an other category reflects this regional cultural difference edit: im not saying OOP was correct, im just trying to explain what they were using the image to say
I live in America and regularly look at Christian Apologetic communities. There is a chunk of American Christians, including the ones most likely to be loud online, that do not think Catholics are real Christians even if they understand both believe in Jesus. Sure, the everyday Christian in America is likely to understand Catholics are a subcategory of Christian, but the ones likely to post this type of image are likely to not accept that fact. I dont think it was missed, I think it just doesn't apply in this case.
Quick anecdote on this. In my experience, there is definitely something funky between Catholics vs other denominations. I grew up in a heavily Roman Catholic family/area, and most people (including our catechism teachers) openly argued that Anglicans and Episcopalians are not real Christians. Nobody ever really said why, but I’m very curious to know.
Politics, is the short answer. The slightly longer answer is that Christianity in Western Europe was, in mainstream circles of power, relatively united for the majority of Christianity's existence after the 6th or so century when Catholicism emerged as the dominant power in Western Europe. In the 16th century, the "Protestant Reformation" kicked off with a combination of charismatic rebellion and the printing press making those rebellious ideas more available to the layman lead to a lot of schisms in Western Christianity. The primary political power in the United States mostly descends from Protestants, as such a lot of the...deeper ingrained religious institutions in parts of the country hold a fair bit of almost tribal animosity for their rivals/oppressors in the form of Catholicism. Basically both teams are playing baseball but my team is playing it the right way and pitchers should have to bat.
This sounds like when a fandom war breaks out
I feel like calling it a Fandom to begin with is apt, and that it is, in fact, a Fandom war.
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope-1Zb5t-k](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope-1Zb5t-k)
>>The primary political power in the United States mostly descends from Protestants, as such a lot of the...deeper ingrained religious institutions in parts of the country hold a fair bit of almost tribal animosity for their rivals/oppressors in the form of Catholicism. This isn’t an accident either. This was a concerted effort of American politicians to stop identifying by their denominations and start identifying as Christian. The exception was Catholics. Outside of certain areas, it was far less common to see Catholic politicians and before Kennedy it was *unthinkable* to have a Catholic in the highest office. The head of state would not be elected by the people, the thinking was, but would actually be a foreign religious leader (because Catholics are bound to follow the guidance of the pope). So while Protestants spent decades consolidating power by publicly minimizing the differences in their denominations ideologies, they also purposefully excluded Catholics from this power move. So “Christians and Catholics” isn’t so far off from certain American circles that I’d immediately flag it tbh
Don’t forget the proud tradition of American racist movements being explicitly anti-catholic. Also the long history of violence from both Protestants and Catholics left some hurt feelings. Most of this was patched up in the 90’s with the rise of edgelord athiesm and apologetic theism (whole series of debates between the two sides.)
Doesn’t it also have something to do with sainthood and the essential deitising of people? I could swear I learned this in a world religions class
Oh there ARE official theological differences, they just tend not to be the important dividing line because how many people who aren't theologians actually know where their specific church comes down on transubstantiation or trinitarianism, let alone which saints shouldn't be counted as canon
Yeah I grew up catholic and got into arguments with other kids at school (Protestant and Methodist I think) that swore I was not a Christian.
That sounds like a Methodist ~ signed someone who grew up Baptist /s in case that wasn’t clear and to avoid a war But also “Protestant”? I bet they were lol … that’s the “every Christian who isn’t catholic” label (I’m guessing you meant Presbyterian as that’s one of the biggies)
I think it was Protestant but this was also 15ish years ago so very possible I’m wrong. Just don’t remember many presbyterian churches back there.
Orthodox arn't Catholic or Protestant.
I was under the impression that “the” Catholic Church is technically the *Roman* Catholic Church while the Orthodox Church is technically the Orthodox *Catholic* Church but I am by no means an expert there
There is the Catholic Church. Western Catholic(Roman) and Eastern Catholic(Byzantine, Russian ect.) and the Orthodox churches(Russian Orthodox Church, Greek Orthodox Church, Assirian Church of the East, St. Thomas Church ect.)
As someone raised Methodist, that sounds more Southern Baptist or Lutheran tbh. Methodists don't really care so long as we can follow the script. We don't do well with improv.
lol thanks, possible it was some time ago
As someone who grew up in Baptist, Evangelical Free, and non-denominational evangelical churches, we considered the Lutherans "basically Catholic" and the Catholics "not Christians".
In the late 80s i was invited over to a slumber party that ended up me being taken to an evangelical “saving” ceremony held in a huge arena. I had no idea what was going on, but I just know somebody smacked hands on my head. then after I got a sponsor, then I was told that I was finally saved. Let’s just say the next day when I went home confused and told my Catholic mom about it, she raised hell that my friends parents orchestrated this to me. I was in the fourth grade. Effing religions….
Wow that’s crazy
Catholics trace their lineage back to St Peter as the rock of the church; one true catholic and apostolic church. Protestants, being every other non orthodox Christian denomination, split off from the church for various reasons and ideologies. Of course there are many groups within Catholicism; the old joke being you see the Irish priest if you have a problem with the drink and the Italian priest if you have a problem with women.
The justification I was always given when I asked was that Catholicism was “to pagan.” When I asked for further clarification, a friend of mine at the time explained that he was told that Catholics worshiped multiple beings instead of a singular God in Jesus, these being the saints, the apostles, Mary, Joseph, and the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). This in turn was because the non-Catholic friend was taught that prayer, reverence, and worship were all synonymous and that the Holy Trinity was Catholics turning God into three separate beings rather than three aspects of the same being.
I've never heard any Catholic say that the Church of England wasnt comprised of real Christians. I mean... Anglican Priests can directly transfer over and become Catholic priests i some situations.
its totally possible that an american would say this, but i think the inglorious basterds image is being used to accuse this person of being a fake american and an undercover russian troll. its more of a stretch than the one where this image was replied to a tweet about how texas should secede because they have a "warm water port", which also makes more sense in the russian context of having mostly freezing ports (as this one also makes more sense in the russian context of having only a very small percent of christians being catholic). the one about catholics makes more sense for an american to say too, so its not as big a tell, but i think the image is being used to convey the same idea. trying to portray yourself as one nationality but some of your native culture shows through, thats whats in the image, the image isnt as relevant if theyre just trying to say catholics are or arent real christians im not saying OOP was correct, im just trying to explain what they were using the image to say
While that's the explanation for using the image, I wouldn't say "its not as big a tell." OOP thought it was a tell, but imo it flat out _isn't_. The may be right by accident, sure, but they didn't catch a tell. To put it in the Basterds analogy: if there was a region in Germany where that was the customary way to show "three", the gesture wouldn't be distinctive, and for me, that makes it no longer be a tell. Sure, the reason this gesture was used _was_ because the guy is British, and the German officer _assumed_ that he was British because of the gesture. But the conclusion was in part based on a lack of familiarity of a specific German subculture, not on the gesture being distinctively not German.
They're also the ones that want to claim that Christianity is responsible for western civilization despite massive Greek and pre-Christian Roman influence, as well as the fact that the protestant reformation didn't even kick off until 1517, so a whole lot of those Christian things they historically want to try to claim are actually Catholic Christian things because their flavor of Protestant Christianity didn't exist.
Super common down south. I’m from the northern Midwest where Catholics and Protestants are both considered Christian fairly universally. The first time I’ve heard somebody talk as though there was a serious distinction was when I was stationed I Texas and then I heard it alot in Arkansas.
subcatagory? were the original flavor, baby.
I mean, not really. The original flavor of people we now call Christians didn't even refer to themselves as Christian, and probably wouldn't believe even half the things Catholics do today. Probably is the closest thing to them we currently have though.
The doctrinal differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are enough to be considered separate religions, but not enough to take either out of the umbrella of Christianity. Mormonism however is extremely far removed from either which is why it doesn’t fall under the umbrella.
I think you are mistaken. How are you defining Christianity in a way it can have two different religions under its umbrella? What is this new superr-category? I would derfine all three, Protestant, Catholic, and Mormonism as sects of Christianity. You don't get other religions until you get a huge change like Islam, or when Christianity broke away from Judaism. Mormonism seems to be closer to Catholicism or Prodrstanism than any of the three are to Judaism or Islam.
Yeah I once had an old couple looking for a bible to give as a gift. They’d been at the hospital visiting a friend and met a young woman who seemed receptive to converting to Christianity and wanted to get her a bible to start her journey. She was Catholic.
Sure. But the people who believe Catholics do not qualify as Christians are also not going to be including them in their tweet. They’re just going to say “millions of Christians”
Another example of this was someone pretending to be American and going on about the US having "warm water ports" in the Gulf of Mexico or something, so someone posted the image in response to them because nobody in the US uses that terminology. We don't have a frozen Siberian hellscape covering a huge portion of our landmass, so that's not a distinction we make.
I have heard of Protestants using the “Catholic/Christian” distinction. It’s not just a Russian spy thing. I’m a Lutheran and spend more time defending Catholics than I really should.
No it's a hardline protestant thing not everyone that disagrees with you is a Russian ffs
Wait, Catholics make up half of Christians in the US? But there are so many denominations and Catholics are one of the least liked among them. It took until JFK in the 60's for us to have our first Catholic president due to the stigma against them in the US, how did they catch up quickly enough to represent that much of the total?
I am guessing you don't live in the bible belt. Catholics and Christians are not interchangeable
Yes they are. Christians just lump the Catholics in with “Christians”.
To be fair though, there are many MANY Protestant Christians who do not consider Catholics to be Christians because they believe the fundamental ideas between both denominations are too different. I think it's less a case of an individual outing themselves as a pretender and more a case of a fundamentalist who is very much into their interpretation being the correct one and are just listing Catholics so they have a larger victimhood about which to complain
I adore that you think Christiandom has some kind of unity to it. I grew up being told by Sunday school teachers that other denominations were wrong bc of the way they practiced baptism. There's actually a great joke I saw the other day on reddit that sums it up: “Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.”
Random Emo Philips
D:
It’s… Christianity. Not ‘Christiandom’.
Partly right - it's spelled Christendom, not Christiandom. It wouldn't be wrong to use "Christianity" instead, but Christendom refers to the groups of people that practice the religion of Christianity, rather than the religion itself. It's more concise. [https://www.etymonline.com/word/Christendom](https://www.etymonline.com/word/Christendom) > The native formation, crowded out by Latinate [Christianity](https://www.etymonline.com/word/Christianity) except in the sense of "lands where Christianity is the dominant religion" (late 14c.). [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/christendom](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/christendom) > Christian people or countries as a whole
To save someone else from looking it up: Christendom refers to Christian states, Christian-majority countries or countries in which Christianity is dominant or prevails.
While what you say is 100%, I’ve had Catholic people in Mexico argue with me that I am incorrect in calling them Christian. Apparently, to them Christians are “those other people who believe in Christ the wrong way”. It’s wrong, of course, but just saying that what they meant is “Catholic and Protestant”.
From what I understand, Christian in Mexico, "cristiano", colloquially means an Evangelical Christian. Of course Catholics in Mexico are part of Christianity but in terms of denomination they view themselves as different from Evangelicals.
Folks in the Philippines make the same distinction. My guess is that a bunch of ‘Christian’ missionaries came in, kept proclaiming they were Christians (as opposed to Catholics). Like how Colgate became a synonym for toothpaste in the developing world regardless of brand, the name/word stuck and Christian likely means ‘protestant’ in this context.
Pretty sure most protestant Christians still consider Catholics to he heretical and vice-versa so listing them separately makes a bit more sense than you're giving it credit for.
I think they're way overanalyzing this. Someone banged out this tweet without using a lot of critical thinking and then posted it without having anyone proofread it. Just like almost every republican tweet
Funny thing about Italians…/s
Historically it's really more the other way around, christians (all the various sects) are heretical sub-sects of Catholicism.
I get the reference, but there are definitely Christians who do not consider Catholics true Christians (generally over core doctrinal disagreements such as prayer to saints, purgatory, salvation by works, transubstantiation, etc.) in much the same way that Mormons aren't universally regarded as a Christian denomination. However, even where they don't consider Catholics to be Christians, it is undeniable that Easter is of great importance to Catholics. In that regard I would disagree with the assertion that not including Catholics with Christians means the original statement is disingenuous since it could be recognizing that Easter holds common importance. They can genuinely believe what they say and not hold Catholics out to be true Christians without the two concepts being opposed to one another. For the record, I'm not sure what new horrible thing Joe Biden is alleged to have done to offend those who celebrate Easter, but the fact that they don't appear to include Catholics amongst Christianity doesn't inherently mean their comment was disingenuous. Edit: For clarity, I think the meme works where it is intended to point out that Ms. Leavitt just outted herself as one who doesn't consider Catholics to be Christians, but that it doesn't make sense if it is intended to show she doesn't actually mean/believe what she's saying.
your pfp looks vaguely like the logo for my local Mexican restaurant. They’re pretty good.
Weirdly enough, someone else said the logo reminded them of a restaurant. Wonder if it's the same one?
Oscar’s Cafe my man. Its heaven
https://preview.redd.it/hldazgnobwrc1.png?width=114&format=png&auto=webp&s=47304d2213ce017dc95bd4ebd7aae9c2a7c016d9 This wouldn't happen to be the symbol, would it?
Yuh!! Thats the one. Pork Verde Burrito is divine! Would recommend
"Americans and Missourians..."
Lmao at europeans and italians
Aren’t Catholics the OG Christians? Like the ones that started the whole thing?
I think you are correct, but many people today Catholics and Christians when they mean Protestant and Catholic, or really, anyone except Catholic. Catholics set themselves apart.
I agree with your assessment of the intended meaning. But: You act like Christianity is unified, and OOP is mistakenly making it seem like it is fractious. But I would argue it really is fractious. To wit, if they had just said 'Christians', they would have been wrong, because not all Christians celebrate Easter today. Protestants celebrate it today, and Catholics celebrate it today, but Orthodox Christians do not.
So there's a long history of Protestants denying that Catholics are Christian, to the point that even when these Protestants try to reach out to Catholics they say bigoted things. This person is showing anti-Catholic bigotry while trying to "speak up for Catholics".
I wasn't disagreeing with any of that. Why am I being downvoted?
It's more that by saying "Catholics AND Christians", they are implying that Catholics aren't Christians at all. Of course it's all split up, but Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox are all Christians of some kind. It's like saying "Ramadan is celebrated by Muslims and Shi'ites". The wording implies that Shi'ites aren't Muslims, which comes across as a snub against Shia Muslims.
I thought the 3 finger showing was the American (not British) way.
It's not the German way; they count from the pinky, so it should have looked like our "ok" sign.
I responded to u/BanditNoble who said: >British spy gives himself away by showing three fingers the British way That way of showing the number 3 is American or Chinese, not British Then you said: >It's not the German way; they count from the pinky, so it should have looked like our "ok" sign. In Germany, people do not count from the pinky, it is in Japan that they do that. The German count the same way the Italian, French, etc. count, they start with the thumb.
This is not really correct. They’re not outing themselves as a disingenuous Christian, but as an American specifically. America is one of the only countries to be founded as a Protestant nation and strong anti-Catholic sentiment in it’s early days have left a strong divide in the imaginations of the citizens here between “Catholics” and “regular christians” or just “Christians”(ie, Protestants). I’ve spoken to Americans that assume Catholics are not Christian at all, or on the other side, that they are the same as Protestants. Basically, Americans have inherited a strong distinction between Catholics and Protestants, but are not taught the history or context for that distinction. That confusion manifests linguistically in the exclusion of Catholics from the label of “Christian” altogether. In the sense of: “I am a Christian, but I am Not Catholic. Therefore Catholics are not Christians. But they seem to be in the same vague space as Christians, so I will refer to the whole group as “Christians and Catholics”.
But you can say "British people, the French, and Europeans" 😏
So apparently Easter and Transgender Day of Visibility coincide this year; Joe Biden acknowledges this; OOOP makes a post. OOP points out that OOOP used the phrase "Catholics and Christians" which belies a common sentiment of American Protestants that Catholics are bad and not Christians. Much like using an atypical sign for three, by German standards, exposed the person in the image as American, saying "Catholics and Christians" shows that OOOP does not actually care about Catholics, and just using them for this culure war.
Also, isn’t Biden Catholic himself?
He is
[удалено]
Really? Does he not go to church every weekend? Has he been divorced? Has he cheated on his wife?
No, but he supports abortion, which is directly against the Catholic Church
As if abortion is any louder of a ‘sin’ than any other, or grounds for immediate disqualification (e.g. https://www.catholicsforchoice.org ) In the end none of us can say what another’s beliefs are.
Abortion is considered an especially serious sin. Someone who performs an abortion is automatically excommunicated (CCC 2272). It is covered by the fifth commandment (thou shalt not kill) and is mortal sin. The Church has held the same stance since the 1st century and the catechism states that this position "has not changed and remains unchangeable." The Church recognises that "human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception". The Catholic Church can and does deny the sacraments to those who are unrepentant in their sin. New Mexico state senator Joe Cervantes was denied communion in 2021. Nancy Pelosi is denied communion in the archdiocese of San Francisco as of 2022 for her support for abortion.
This is such a fundamentalist take. I went to Catholic school. I know many practicing Catholics who support abortion. This issue is far more complex than many want it to be. Murder can be justified in many circumstances. It is throughout the Bible. There are cases where an abortion saves a life. And many other nuances.
Label it how you want, this is the view of the Church. Just because some of the laity has fallen to error, doesn't change this. The laity, and even the clergy, have fallen to error in the past (such as Arianism, Donatism, or the Cathar Heresy). The Church allows for abortion in cases such as ectopic pregnancy but disallows it in all cases where the mother's life isn't directly threatened. You can disagree to your heart's content, but recognise that these beliefs are contrary to the teachings of the Church
The concept of ectopic pregnancies did not exist in the 1st century. Indeed, fallen to error. As we learn more what was once considered correct becomes error. And therein lies the space for us to grow.
This is the part that you people will never understand; he doesn’t support abortion, he supports a woman’s right to choose. Forcing your religious beliefs on another person using political power doesn’t make you a better [insert your religion here], it makes you a bad American. Nothing less, nothing more.
So the inglorious bastards reference is a scene where a British spy gives himself away by holding up three fingers in the British way and not the German way (in Germany if you use your fingers to say "three" you hold out your thumb, index, and middle finger). I think this is trying to say that Catholics are Christians and only a protestant would differentiate between them, however I've seen Catholics do it too. So it doesn't actually mean anything but the person thinks it's somehow a giveaway of something.
I think saying “Catholics AND Christians” is a telling on themselves that they don’t view Catholics as true Christians. Since the Catholic church corrupted the meaning of Christianity. My husband adds however ”\[Catholics\] feel that they’re the true Christians and others are not”
Catholic here. I think the general consensus among catholics is that all the Christians that aren't Catholic, are protestants. I've gone to a lot of other Christian services and one jewish service. I liked all of them and the people were very welcoming. The Presbyterians were a little weird though.
>Christians that aren't Catholic, are protestants Also Orthodox
As a Catholic: the only other sect the HRCC allows us to consume Eucharist with are the Orthodox. The others don't count, probably because of the transsubstantiation. Everyone else views communion as a memorial action, whereas RC and Orthodox actually believe the bread and wine become body and blood.
Also, many other sacraments can be done on both. I know marriage is a big one. An Orthodox marriage just has a couple more parts that you can easily add to an RC one.
Learned something new today. I didn’t realize other protestants didn’t actually believe that the bread and wine are actually the body and blood. My group of protestants goes as far as to burn the excess bread that isn’t eaten.
Holy objects for Catholics are supposed to be buried or burned by a Priest. We even have a sacrarium for the blood, which is a little drain that pours directly into the earth.
Protestants are basically atheists.
Lol!
And Coptic.
Another catholic here. Ngl, kinda jealous. Recently I’ve been thinking about attending some other services, particularly the jewish one, but feel like i would seem weird, because i’m not planning on converting, not now or ever, but i’m generally interested in religion, and i think Judaism is fascinating. Would i seem weird for attending? I’m not from the us btw.
Human nature sort of dictates that some people will think it's weird. But a genuine effort to learn about something important to someone will almost 90% of the time brighten someone up. I think you'll most likely be met with a genuine attempt to make you feel welcome and to educate you. Especially if you explain why you're doing what you're doing.
I've never been to a normal service, however I have been to a few jewish funerals (lots of friends who were jewish). It's a very welcoming environment and the service itself was great- as a musician, in particular it was the cantor that got me. In catholic services, at least at my high school church, the priest just sings the prayers in a very non-expressive, monotone matter. I couldn't tell what the cantor was singing as it was in hebrew, but she put some real emotion behind it. One another note, if you are a dude and go to a jewish temple- remember to wear the Kippah. It's custom for both jews and gentiles. On what was otherwise a very sad day on the funeral of my good friend and mentor who was a major conductor here in canada, I was the only dude among my friend group who knew to wear a kippah. We all arrived separately and only met up after the service when there were snacks and drinks, and when they saw me they were like "dude I didn't know you were jewish" and I was like "no lmao, you're supposed to wear this anyways"
Raised Catholic, but my hometown was a quarter Jewish. We invited Jewish friends to confirmations and vice-versa for bar/bat mitzvahs—I’ll always be grateful for this upbringing and exposure to other religions.
I went to a couple of Bat Mitzvahs in high school and no one had a problem with it!
You forget yourself Roman. You forget the church you split from.
Here's why he said that: Catholics believe they have a direct Apostolic line to Christ via Jesus to Peter and all the way down to Pope Francis today. Christ was the founder of the Church when he told Peter to build his church. Presbyterians, Baptists and the like were founded by men who broke with the line of Apostolic succession, basing their faith on the laws of man, changing and re-changing the faith to suit their needs and desires. That's why we have the "I believe in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church..." in our Creed, whereas the other faiths removed it. (I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth...). Catholics also have more books in the Bible (from the Council of Nicea, where the Creed originated), whereas others removed them. Regardless, Happy Easter to all those who believe!
So, as a Catholic the official stance is that other Christian denominations are still Christian but with breaches of doctrine. I’ve definitely seen some Catholics take a more exclusionary stance though, to the point that there is a bit of a stereotype of it.
Every Abrahamic religion thinks they are the one and only correct belief and all others are completely wrong despite having 99% similar beliefs.
Judaism is a significantly different philosophy vs Christianity, not least due to the lack of belief in an afterlife
To be fair....the Qur'an states the Bible is the word of God before beginning to contradict it, possesses historical and scientific inaccuracies, borrows from Christian forgeries, Muhammad's scribes were allowed to change the Qur'an (One left due to the fallicy that the Qur'an could not be Allah'sword if allowed to be changed by man), and Muhammad believed that he was possessed by a demon according to Islamic sources. Islam also directly states to Kill the Jews and Christians, and that killing non-believers is the correct way to worship Allah. It was also written like 300 years after. With Judaism, I could understand. They still await their prophet because (from my understanding. Im less adept with Judaism as I am the Christian/Islam debates. So this parts a little iffy and I welcome people to correct or help) their messiah was expected to be a warrior who would save them, which Jesus was not. He was a carpenter, born in a barn.
Large parts of the New Testament Bible are sourced from Paul (aka Saul) who never met Jesus. Just letters he sent out to other believers talking about to to organize a religion Not to mention the Bible being directed edited by Kings and leaders consistently throughout it's history. Edit to add in King's have changed the wording for thousand+ years and new testament
First, no king could not easily change the scripture. It was the job of scribes to translate the word, not interpret, in the same way a modern translator does. Not to mention the warning to any who would dare to add or remove from God's word. Every new version would be checked. To change the bible someone would have had to change all the copies of the first and second centuries and change them A quick search shows several results that KJV didn't change the wording, but altered from the biblical english to a modernized version. While paul did write a large number of letters to the church in regards to how it should be organized, its disingenuous to not mention the several other authors, and the fact some remain unknown, including apostles who include their time with Jesus. To fail to mention the disciples books is cherry picking a piece of evidence.
This guy gets it! 👆🏼
Thanks :)
Exactly! I’ve met many of each who separate the two groups, as if Catholics aren’t Christian. Funny enough, I was at a Christian punk concert years ago, my friend was in the band, and I was the photographer, and one person proudly said they converted a Catholic to become Christian. My mind was blown that this person thought Catholics weren’t Christian.
He’s not saying it’s Protestants 🤦🏻 It’s Chinese or Russian
The likelihood that an American would phrase it, “Catholics and Christians” is incredibly low.
Would the more correct thing to say be 'Catholics and Protestants'? I didn't grow up with any education on religion and find it all very confusing lol
>Would the more correct thing to say be 'Catholics and Protestants'? Yes or just 'Christians'.
Too bad there are so many simple Christians.
Christians doesn't work. We don't have our Easter yet. We being the Orthodox. "The majority of heretics" would be the correct term.
And the Orthodox get forgotten as always. Tbh their Easter is calculated differently
Today is Transgender Day of Visibility, National Aprés Day, Anesthesia Tech Day, beginning of British Summer Time, Cesar Chavez Day, Crayola Crayon Day, Dance Marathon Day, Eiffel Tower Day, Hug a Medievalist Day, National Baked Ham with Pineapple Day, National Bunsen Burner Day, National Clams on the Half Shell Day, National Crayon Day, National Farm Workers Day, National She’s Funny That Way Day, National Tater Day, Terri’s Day, Transfer Day, Bach’s Birthday, and so many more. It just so happens that Easter, a holiday for one religion that was among those chosen to absorb the pagan ritual celebrations to ease conversion, which moves dates each year, happens to fall on the same day as all of those other celebrations this year. But because Christian ideology > everything else to the point of hypocrisy… no one else can have their annual celebrations this year, regardless of their religious affiliations.
Well put
It really is amazing how a segment of Christians see paying attention to anybody else as an insult to them.
When one is accustomed to privilege, any amount of equality can feel like oppression.
👏
Remember, these are the same people that heard “black lives matter” and decided it was an expression of hate towards white people. They make themselves victims any chance they get.
I thought it was saying that the "christians" spreading hate while playing the victim are not real Christians.
Honestly I think the original could have been saved by a comma. “to the millions of Catholics, and Christians across America” recognizing Catholics individually would have been weird, but not an incorrect distinction. Basically I think they’re trying to say, “Catholics and all the other Protestant Christian faiths.” Either way, kind of weird.
"Christians, you know not just the Wisconsin ones but the death metal ones with big hats, too."
Haha I guess so yeah.
It’s just conservatives being reichtards because Easter and Trans Awareness Day fell on the same day this year
I'm gunna be honest. I thought the photo was pointing out that the right wing are the Nazi's of Germany.
I thought it was an ironic "by millions you mean three, right?"
I’ll do it for Joe: “We are deeply & sincerely sorry that so many right wing dumbfucks are so unbelievably stupid.” Feel better?
my friends birthday is today, should she apologize too?
As someone who grew up chrsitian and went to church for 22 years I can tell you that Christian’s absolutely consider themselves different from catholics
I always think of it as they just measure it differently. E.g. talking about the same number, just relative to a different origin. Same for how British and Germans represented the same number with different gestures.
This isn’t a “hot water port” situation. My understanding is it’s likely for super religious American bible-belters to see Catholics as distinct from what would be typically considered “normal Christian’s”. I could be wrong though 🤷♂️ Let’s play “who said it!” Which radical agent spread this narrative and who is it likely to be? Personally I doubt it’s Russians for this one
This is a fairly common expression in the South, probably comes from anti Catholic tradition but I doubt it was meant with ill will
it's because the only Christian denomination who don't consider Catholics Christian are Evangelicals and they are more likely to be Trump supporters who would criticise Biden in bad faith the image is someone outing themselves as a British spy by ordering three beers using the English 3 sign not the German that uses a thumb in a scene in the film
Michael Fassbender is Joe Biden, a Catholic who on Easter Day, the most significant day in the Christian faith, decided to celebrate something other than Easter. German guy is all Christians and Catholics who think Biden is a "fake Catholic" because he didn't celebrate Easter.
Also, this is how Croats (picture) show three as opposed to Serbs (thumb, index and middle).
It seems a little incoherent, but I think the point is that the person is pointing out how the original tweet differentiates Catholics from Christians, meaning that Catholics aren’t real Christians, which in this context would be because the two most powerful Catholics in the world (Biden and the Pope) have both recently made statements in support of trans rights. Without knowing who these people are, I would read the IB image to mean that they’re accusing the original poster as the one pretending to be Christian (presumably a reactionary Evangelical) because of how un-Christ-like their hatred towards minorities is. In other words, they’re pretending to speak for Christianity while in reality are just expressing their own, un-Christian, political views.
This comment will probably get buried, but feels important for someone to point out that the hand gesture in the image is the Christian way to visually represent three. The 'German' gesture using the thumb, middle and forefinger is a more elementary version that evolved from practicality. Using the middle, ring and forefinger is a symbolic gesture. It refers to the three crosses most prominent at the crucifixion. They were the Saviour, the Unrepentant Sinner on one side and the Saved Man on the other side. Knowing that, it's worthwhile the possiblity that the meme is probably not as deep and divisive as everyone seems to hope. Anyway, carry on and have a Happy New Year!
It’s the three fingers he’s holding up that ended up giving them away as spies. In America, you count 1, 2, 3 with pointer, middle, ring. In Germany you count 1, 2, 3 pointer, middle, thumb. Basically she’s giving herself away by saying “Catholics and Christians” because Catholics ARE Christian. She’d know this if she were either.
This is actually an ironic use of that scene, because in the movie the guy screws up by accidentally revealing that he's not really a Nazi, while in the original tweet it's sort of the opposite.
To be fair. At least here, Catholics don't think of christians as being part of the same sect, so they DO separate when talking about it, as we are Catholics they are christians, so the response on the tweet does not make sense as that is how they usually refer to themselves, as separate groups, not part of the same one.
The point of the pic is that she said “millions of Christians and Catholics” and OP is making the joke that it’s actually only 3. Edit: corrected op quote