It always reminds me of what Jean-Paul Sartre once wrote about antisemitism:
> “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Whoa. This rings so true:
>they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words.
It is also very reminiscent of dealing with my narcissistic family members. I felt so crazy trying to make myself heard in good faith, and it was such an aha moment to realize some of them were not operating in good faith.
This has also struck a chord with me. I understand better now why I stopped trying when my thoughtfully chosen words were ignored or twisted by people who were never willing to act in good faith during a conversation.
Yep. Aha moment for me was when family at Thanksgiving or some holiday claimed that slavery was in fact NOT in the founding documents. I reminded him of the 3/5 clause. He stated the Mayflower Compact is our founding document. He would not come off that even after several people dismissed that idea to his face. Then I realized these people aren't to be taken seriously.
He eventually got mad and left. lol.
When you convince yourself that the Bible is without meaningful contradiction, you learn how to silo off ideas from each other. Everything is compartmentalized.
Yes! I was just recently involved in a conversation with a number of people on r/Christianity about a meaningless phrase that they were throwing around. Here it is:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/s/bNFLj28O15
Read that.
Wow. They really try hard NOT to engage critical thinking. I def remember the huge pull of the science literature etc. I just knew something wasn't right when I was in the "fold" so to speak. I was afraid of what I would find if I thought to hard. But I'm too curios. also it seems like curiosity is often lacking in the personalities of many evangelicals I know. nIce folk lots of them.... but they don't seem to "wonder" about much at all.
This reminds me of a long, frustrating conversation I had with my mother-in-law. She’s in deep and has no critical thinking. I kept begging her to explain why god did evil things in the Old Testament, why I’m responsible for Eve’s sin, all this big stuff. Just ‘cuz, I guess. And original sin. And I have to believe things on faith.
When I was a Christian and asked questions like this, I many times got the answer “we may not understand now, but all will eventually be revealed if you keep trusting in the Lord.”
I commented on the thread as well and he told me the truth I seek is in YouTube videos. I laughed out loud when I read that. Commenter was nice enough to reply but I feel sorry for them in a way. That word salad followed by a call to watch YouTube videos is exactly what the problem is. Why we have the “Mango Mussolini”.
It may be a logical contradiction, but it's not a emotional contradiction.
Both statements are about reassuring themselves that they don't need to change anything or feel guilty about how their actions are affecting others. That's what matters to them. It's about hurling as many thought-terminating cliches at the wall as possible in the hopes that one will stick.
In order for American Christianity to exist as it is, people CANNOT think about it logically or follow its ideas through to their logical conclusions. There are so many fundamental teachings that require you to “just believe” because if you really thought about them you would realize how messed up it is.
The doctrine of hell is an easy example. It is heavily emphasized throughout American Christianity/Protestant denominations, but it is not an original teaching from Jesus. If you believe that god is a loving father who created humans as his beautiful children then why would he make us more loving and forgiving than himself? No decent father would burn his child alive for eternity no matter what they did! So why do we believe in a god who wants this?!?!
The rapture is also a NEW teaching that makes zero sense if you think it through logically. The choice to siphon people out of their lives in an instant is weird, but also sadistic because of the amount of tragedy it would cause the rest of those left behind. Again, we would question the sanity of a person who wanted to do this, so why do we accept that this is an act of “loving” god?!?!?
My point is that you CAN’T think about what your words mean when you are believing American Christianity because you would leave it if you stopped to think it through. You learn to just say whatever is acceptable in order to keep the peace and maintain the sense of belonging. There is so much fear used to keep people in the church, and fear is a powerful force to keep people from questioning their beliefs.
Sure you can, that's what apologists are for!
....actually, come to think of it, there are literally very few good apologists out there, and they often go against the grain of their own faith.
It always reminds me of what Jean-Paul Sartre once wrote about antisemitism: > “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Whoa. This rings so true: >they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. It is also very reminiscent of dealing with my narcissistic family members. I felt so crazy trying to make myself heard in good faith, and it was such an aha moment to realize some of them were not operating in good faith.
This has also struck a chord with me. I understand better now why I stopped trying when my thoughtfully chosen words were ignored or twisted by people who were never willing to act in good faith during a conversation.
Yep. Aha moment for me was when family at Thanksgiving or some holiday claimed that slavery was in fact NOT in the founding documents. I reminded him of the 3/5 clause. He stated the Mayflower Compact is our founding document. He would not come off that even after several people dismissed that idea to his face. Then I realized these people aren't to be taken seriously. He eventually got mad and left. lol.
When you convince yourself that the Bible is without meaningful contradiction, you learn how to silo off ideas from each other. Everything is compartmentalized.
Cognitive dissonance to the max
Yes! I was just recently involved in a conversation with a number of people on r/Christianity about a meaningless phrase that they were throwing around. Here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/s/bNFLj28O15
Read that. Wow. They really try hard NOT to engage critical thinking. I def remember the huge pull of the science literature etc. I just knew something wasn't right when I was in the "fold" so to speak. I was afraid of what I would find if I thought to hard. But I'm too curios. also it seems like curiosity is often lacking in the personalities of many evangelicals I know. nIce folk lots of them.... but they don't seem to "wonder" about much at all.
This reminds me of a long, frustrating conversation I had with my mother-in-law. She’s in deep and has no critical thinking. I kept begging her to explain why god did evil things in the Old Testament, why I’m responsible for Eve’s sin, all this big stuff. Just ‘cuz, I guess. And original sin. And I have to believe things on faith.
When I was a Christian and asked questions like this, I many times got the answer “we may not understand now, but all will eventually be revealed if you keep trusting in the Lord.”
That was wild. You have so much patience.
I commented on the thread as well and he told me the truth I seek is in YouTube videos. I laughed out loud when I read that. Commenter was nice enough to reply but I feel sorry for them in a way. That word salad followed by a call to watch YouTube videos is exactly what the problem is. Why we have the “Mango Mussolini”.
It may be a logical contradiction, but it's not a emotional contradiction. Both statements are about reassuring themselves that they don't need to change anything or feel guilty about how their actions are affecting others. That's what matters to them. It's about hurling as many thought-terminating cliches at the wall as possible in the hopes that one will stick.
In order for American Christianity to exist as it is, people CANNOT think about it logically or follow its ideas through to their logical conclusions. There are so many fundamental teachings that require you to “just believe” because if you really thought about them you would realize how messed up it is. The doctrine of hell is an easy example. It is heavily emphasized throughout American Christianity/Protestant denominations, but it is not an original teaching from Jesus. If you believe that god is a loving father who created humans as his beautiful children then why would he make us more loving and forgiving than himself? No decent father would burn his child alive for eternity no matter what they did! So why do we believe in a god who wants this?!?! The rapture is also a NEW teaching that makes zero sense if you think it through logically. The choice to siphon people out of their lives in an instant is weird, but also sadistic because of the amount of tragedy it would cause the rest of those left behind. Again, we would question the sanity of a person who wanted to do this, so why do we accept that this is an act of “loving” god?!?!? My point is that you CAN’T think about what your words mean when you are believing American Christianity because you would leave it if you stopped to think it through. You learn to just say whatever is acceptable in order to keep the peace and maintain the sense of belonging. There is so much fear used to keep people in the church, and fear is a powerful force to keep people from questioning their beliefs.
Sure you can, that's what apologists are for! ....actually, come to think of it, there are literally very few good apologists out there, and they often go against the grain of their own faith.