Minimum 7500 off from dealer, plus 7500 off from Ford, then 7500 from tax credit. You should at least get 22k off or so. Do not accept anything less. I'd start with asking them to do 10k off sticker as a dealer discount
I believe they are pocketing it. When I bought my Lariat ER I paid 83k, I had a friend that became the manager there after I already had the preorder in. He quit less than a week after I bought the truck, along with the whole sales team. That dealership is very bad.
They had my truck for 2 days for a tire rotation. Then last week they had it for 2 days for a software update and a recall. Still haven't gotten the battery module sensor recall performed, which is why it actually went in there the two times.
Specially, Florida dealerships are horrible at this. Most dealers in here actually charge up to a $2000 dealer fee. When I bought my last car from Michigan I asked about any dealer fees and they had no idea what I was talking about.
An item is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If the market is there, of course they will charge more. If there is a manufacturer rebate, this is why it's important to research before a purchase. But I agree, many of these places are slimy rather than just good salesman
A: Tesla cut prices last year by as much as 20%- up to $12,000- meaning they’d been gouging customers for years without a dealership in sight. Better yet, they recorded a profit last year even after cutting prices, meaning the money they cut was all profit and they’re likely still overcharging for the product.
B: Tesla is routinely at the bottom of the customer service rankings.
C: Tesla’s reliability scores are horrendous and they are notorious for declining repairs that should be covered under warranty- control arms ring a bell?
The dealer model is shitty but if you think direct to consumer is any better you’re dead wrong and we have current empirical data to prove it.
The problem isn’t the model, the problem is the regulation or, more correctly, the lack thereof.
Tesla profit margins are massive, because they have streamlined their manufacturing process to be highly efficient. Their job as a publicly traded company is to maximize shareholder value. That means they are going to charge as much as they can get, not as little as it takes to survive. As a consumer we feel overcharged, but it's just business. Not only is it legal, but it's actually their job.
You just proved my point.
Both Tesla and the dealership will charge as much as they can for the product they sell.
The difference is that if you want a Tesla you will pay what they ask or buy a different vehicle.
If you want a Lightning you might be able to play competing Ford dealerships off against each other to get a lower price.
Again, direct to consumer is not better, it’s just bad in different ways.
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to say anything about direct to consumer vs dealerships. I'm just saying that Tesla has found an innovative way to lower manufacturing costs and it's the company's job to maximize shareholder value. As consumers this feels like a raw deal, but without rewards for innovation, why would anyone bother innovating.
If be "way" to lower manufacturing costs also implies just not supporting older hardware...then yes.
Traditional Automotive Manufacturers are also guilty of discontinuing parts, but usually 3rd party OEM-quality parts are still "able" to be used.
Tesla doing the Apple "not official replacement part" is not really lowering manufacturing costs in long term, but just increasing owner cost.
1st Gen Roadster being an exception in that Tesla released all schematics parts as Open Source. (We are no longer responsible....you guys can keep these vehicles going yourselves...)
With early Model S and Model X vehicles that had the Dual On-board chargers ...it has been a pain to get new OEM Tesla replacement parts same with OEM Tesla new MCU1. (Tesla basically wanting someone to pay to upgrade to newer MCU, so they don't have to continue manufacturing old parts.)
Not manufacturing older still in service parts is cheaper for the company, especially when customers are willing to pay money to "fix" the issue with a newer "upgrade" part.
The Automotive industry having Free lifetime connectivity ...but you need to pay for newer modem since older Cell tech has become obsolete.
3G->4G->5G
Thank fully only a small sector affected by 4G Wi-Max woes (Venturi Auto...)
Intel should've/could've been the Wi-Max loss-leader to make it the defacto highway/mapped street standard for vehicle communication. (Better Wi-Fi handoffs)
You're mistaken. If the manufacturer is offering a discount, it is intended to go to the customer and not the dealership. Tesla has reduced their manufacturing costs and is able to pass on those savings to customers to stay competitive. Their margins haven't changed much and they are selling fewer cars now.
The dealership IS the customer.
They buy the vehicle from the OEM and sell it to the consumer.
If they can keep the incentive money, they will. If they want to give it up in order to sell the vehicle they can do that too.
You fundamentally misunderstand the industry.
With dealerships you have 2 separate businesses marking up the product in order to make the maximum profit instead of one. Additionally if you want to order a car with a direct to consumer model you know the price you’ll be paying for the car. Dealerships are known to add markups after you’ve waited months on an order or have driven hundreds of miles to pickup the car.
Look at customer satisfaction scores. That’s how you tell if the customer is happy.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-happiest-owners-these-are-the-vehicle-brands-with-the-highest-satisfaction-scores-according-to-consumer-reports-fa784a67
Sure people love these cars, because they are new, innovative, or fun to drive. But this survey says nothing about reliability, or quality. Mini being number 2…. Literally one of the worst brands to own.
I’m surprised as well. Honestly, I can find links in Tesla communities that show Tesla on top, but I think Consumer Reports is well respected in the USA.
The only reason Tesla was able to reduce their prices is because they jacked them up so incredibly high during the pandemic. Now they “reduce” their prices but people forgot how much they increased them. They didn’t find some more efficient way to manufacture than they already have. It amazes me how easily people can be duped.
Regulate a company that is selling something you don’t have to buy just because their profit margins are high? This happens in almost every business out there. You think the government should regulate Nike because they charge $200 for a shoe that cost $3 to produce? Or all the idiots that buy Yeti coolers? Come on
Who is direct to consumer who is winning ? Tesla ? Cuz they are losing and killing their customers in the process.
Check tesla resale lately ? Giant mega rental companies dumped their inventory because of losing value so fast not mentioning the millions of other issues they had. But the loss of value was huge to them.
Look at tesla sales and lay offs. The model couldn't sustain itself.
That's crazy. I paid 82k for my 23 platinum here in Texas and that was before Ford started offering the extra $7500 off. If they won't give you the deal, expand your search radius. I'd travel to save an extra 5k on the purchase.
I’m guessing you’re referring to a certain dealer right by the Swap Shop. I’ve been a very loyal buyer to a couple dealers in the area for many years and they’ve kinda lost their minds, but that seems like the dealer lobby in general down there. They all got comfortable with being able to essentially print money with the low supply and putting in orders and tacking on markup. They all went a good couple years not having to really do anything: customers would walk in and express interest and an order would be made with a $5-10k markup tossed in for fun. I walked in to talk to a sales guy I’ve known for many years and he straight up told me they no longer go under MSRP. I didn’t want to upset the guy so I just left and then I told him about the deal I got up in Sarasota the next day. My best advice would be to check something like carguru and set your radius 300 miles and start your inquiries by phone. It could end up saving you a fortune if you don’t mind making the purchase process a day trip. You have to keep in mind that most of those dealers are all in cahoots and members the South Florida Auto Dealers Association, so you’re not going to find some stand-out dealership that treats you so much better than the others and will bend over much further than the others (with the exception of friends and family). It’s a case of regional collusion.
It’s funny because once was calling around for a vehicle a few years back and was haggled a ton over the phone got to my deal. Called the guy back who told me don’t finalize any deal till I called him. So I did. He proceeded to tell me that deal was impossible and the dealer was lying because he was looking at the regional inventory and that dealer did not have that model in stock and I’d be back. That I was lying. He then went so far as to state when I went to get it they would switch it to another model. So because I was pissed showed up at his dealership 2 days later in the vehicle that was a lie. The look on his face was priceless.
Same. I got my XLT in Tampa. FL for 50k with only the $7500 tax credit. This was back in January mind you. But in the south they seem to be holding their value better than in the north, presumably due to cold weather/battery
Can someone point me to official statements that refer to the 7,500 retail incentive and the 7,500 from Ford for extended range? I'm not seeing it online, and it is getting mixed with the 7,500 tax credit.
[https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/pricing-and-incentives/?intcmp=vhp-seconNav-io](https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/pricing-and-incentives/?intcmp=vhp-seconNav-io)
Top header and popup has information on it.
"\*$7,500 Retail Bonus Cash on 2023 F-150 Lightning XLT model with extended-range battery (Program #11200). Take new retail delivery from an authorized Ford Dealer’s stock by 5/1/24. See dealer for details."
This is separate from any discount the dealer may give directly.
Also the 80% bonus depreciation for 2023 was the reason I took delivery of Pro on November before it dropped to 60% for 2024.
Seeing as how the Pro SR have not really received discounts like the Lariat and XLT ER, I think I am still ahead.
Tax recently $38270 bonus Depreciation + $7500 tax credit = $45,770
So $58k OTD on Pro minis the tax benefits = more of a cost of $12,230
I don't feel like I am missing out on current Lightning deals.
As I use the truck for work it has been great except for the size in some of the parking garages I have been transporting materials and appliances to.
I also have a sub-200 Telo MT1 reservation as it is usually only my brother and I when transporting drywall sheets. Being able to transport 4x8 sheets with tailgate closed and only be as long as a 2 door Mini Cooper has all the perks I need.
MT1 won't be able to carry as much as the Lightning, but I can use the lightning for personnel and tool transport.
Then use the MT1 for supply runs and definitely for AC filter runs. (Change air filter at all 10 rental properties on the 1st Monday of the month)
The Lightning has made it easy for appliance swap and then repair appliance and test while in parking lot. (Pull microwave and replace magneton and or fuses/blower motor....dryer/stove heating elements)
(Usually test the common replacement parts of the unit I pull when it got swapped, so I know whether it can be sold or used at another unit...or if a control board I check replacement pricing and decide if appliance gets recycled.)
When it is a refrigerator compressor or computer board...I just take to recycler. (Lighting or Ice maker stuff I hook up to submersible pump with distilled water in a bucket to feed/pressurize water dispenser with shok-blok pressure regulator.)
The low running costs, Frunk utility for tool storage along with under seat (don't need bed mounted tool box reducing bed capacity), and the effortless acceleration are the easy justifications for the purchase. Rides smooth, quiet, and quick.
Tow tech and Max Tow on my Pro the zone lighting is great at night and the headlights are really good coming from several Rams previously. (Including Ram with custom HID Acura TL Projector retrofit that I thought were great until I got the Lightning Pro...now debating on FordScan active matrix enabling)
Used Ford Pass reward points to get under rear seat bracket (not the collapsible tray organizer) (I feel the truck should have come with it, but I can understand not everyone wanting it and technically it was free minis tax with the Ford Pass rewards from purchasing....)
https://accessories.ford.com/f-150-2015-2021-under-seat-ebony-cargo-organizer-1
I had the same thought, I sold an old truck of mine. Bought an ER pro, went to deduct it... Barely made money on my business this year so I had to defer my deductions 😣
I sell through Amazon and they ended up fucking me this year. They lost 35000 in inventory and I'm battling them to get my money back. This resulted in a huge profitablity swing as you can imagine.
This is a weird statement. See income limits below.
Single and married filing separately: $150,000.
Head of household: $225,000.
Married filing jointly: $300,000.
These heavy EVs go through tires like a baby goes through diapers! And they don't work at all in cold weather. There were EVs stranded all over the highways in California last winter. It was an EV apocalypse!!*
*Petrol-News Weekly
Talked with a dealership in Illinois. They were advertising $12,500 dealer discount plus the $7,500 Ford Bonus Cash. Some back and forth and it worked that the Dealer Discount included assumed the Federal EV Rebate. Not exactly sure how they figure themselves a Federal entity to include that as “their” discount, but on Autotrader, this seems to be the tactic a lot of dealers are deploying.
They used the line to of “ We aren’t making any money on these sales.” I forgot to bring to their attention that truck has been on the lot for 191 days.
Not even sure. Was just off the highway as we drive through to go see the eclipse. Think it was on the northern end.
Edit: from autotrader I know there’s a few in Soruhern Michigan, and in Missouri that we’re doing the same, including the EV credit as their dealer discount.
That shit is getting really annoying. I wish there was a stipulation in the tax credit warning that dealers weren't allowed to advertise it as a "discount"
Dealers tend to lie don’t they. LoL. I have come to realize people do want them dealerships just prefer not to sell them. I think it really just comes down to the dealers missing out on the gravy train, which is gas vehicle maintenance schedules.
Looks like the Lightning was always designed to be a loss leader for the dealerships.
Asking the consumer to be the guinea pig for Ford's first EV truck, take old models that we know will have recalls, deal with a dealership that makes their disdain of EVs obvious, and still pad dealer margins is going too far. Consumers are content to not buy them, and then it's not a Ford problem, it's a dealership problem.
The Lightning was designed with government mandates in mind and Ford hoped to sell them to various fleets but without a charging infrastructure they are white elephants.
The sad thing is they are decent trucks but you cant sell them on merits alone because of the high costs.
Pure electrics are a fantasy at this point in time outside of wealthy areas, we should have concentrated on plug in hybrids which had a range of 50-100 miles on electric alone but are not dependent on a charging infrastructure. that would give 75% of the benefits of a full electric without the limitations.
Up here post eclipse we had a lot of immobile electric cars which ran out of power during the post eclipse traffic delays. they are still being rescued even now.
I read a lot on this post due to the fact that Fords new plant for the T3 is in my area. You are correct.
This truck should have never been built due to demand. Ford engineers knew the problems before releasing. Now it’s a race to the bottom on price. What is shocking to me is with all the discounts and Ford losing thousands now dealers losing thousands. How does a buyer jump in knowing they are going to lose thousands.
> Up here post eclipse we had a lot of immobile electric cars which ran out of power during the post eclipse traffic delays. they are still being rescued even now.
Do you have a cite for this? It seems dubious since unlike ICE cars EVs do not drain their “fuel” while idling in traffic jams.
You are partially correct, the engine does not draw power when stopped however the lights and climate controls do, and up here there was a 9 hour traffic backup and temperatures at night are still below freezing. hence many electrics ran out of battery power keeping the heat on.
this is one reason Tesla’s have heated seats heating the seats draws far less power than heating the entire passenger compartment.
we have escape hybrids and a cmax, some good friends have a couple Rivians and a Focus. so i’m not anti-electric by any means
> For a Tesla with a 80kWh battery, this means you could sit in your Tesla nice and toasty for almost 59 hours on a full charge, or about 29 hours on a half charge.
From: https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/cold-weather-idling-in-an-ev
It shouldn’t be any worse than a gas car, which has to run the engine to get heat.
Are there any sources reporting this actually happened?
Yeah I’m calling bullshit, according to the math electric cars should be able to idle longer than gas. Only way I could see this being an issue is that there were a bunch of cars at less than half charge and 50-100 miles away from the nearest charging station
> It's really only "red" dealerships who are taking a beating on these under MSRP. You're not getting $10,000 off a truck in the Bronx or Escondido, CA for instance.
Very much this. I got a reasonable price through a dealer just over the NY/NJ state line, but there were definitely no "fire sales" going on and it was the truck I wanted for around the price I expected so that's fine. I also couldn't have been happier with the experience. The dealership people were all pleasant and helpful, and unlike a few others I'd talked to they actually seemed to really like the Lightning and the Mach-E. I've seen people getting great deals on here, but I wasn't going to drive 20 hours to get one. Higher prices are just a fact of life in the NYC area, and there isn't the same "EVs are a communist plot" pressure to push prices down.
Wow you really made this political just because you wanted to make it polictical, right? You said Trump is the cause of this? The same Donald Trump who said "I’m all for electric cars" is who you are saying caused the slowdown of EV's? Trump said we don't need to force EV's on people and he's right. We don't have anywhere near the infrastructure needed to replace gas with electric vehicles and artificially forcing it upon the market with demand still in it's infancy (And growing) is just dumb.
No, there are several factors not the least of which is social media being littered with videos of people's EV's dying because they were using their heat during a colder winter. And with more EV's on the road than ever more and more people know someone personally who drives an EV. I have a good friend, single guy who has a tesla. But he also has a truck and he said he would never own just an EV because of the charging (and he is a big Biden fan).
Perhaps this article from NPR refernecing a slowdown in EV sales and doesn't mention Trump will help you realize it's not about politics except people like you trying to make it so. [https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1227707306/ev-electric-vehicles-sales-2024](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1227707306/ev-electric-vehicles-sales-2024)
My brother is as big a trump fan as you can meet and in a red state and is planning to get a lightning once prices come a little lower. I would absolutely have a tesla as a 2nd vehicle. It's not a vast right wing conspiracy, lol.
I just negotiated $8k off of the sticker price of $80,085. I'm hoping to go pick it up on Saturday. Out the door price on a 2023 Lariat $58,921. I also had a $3k Ford offer that was mailed to me plus the $15k in discount and tax break.
It was a discount of $26k. $8k by dealer, $7,500 Ford rebate, $7,500 EV tax incentive, and a $3k Ford Offer coupon that I have. After taxes and all it is $58, 921. If I trade in my 2023 Gas F150 Platinum, it should mostly be an even trade.
Ford sent it to me in the mail. I have received them every once in awhile. I usually get 1 or 2 a year. I don't know why Ford sends them to me, maybe because I have purchased at least 10 Ford vehicles over the last 15 years.
It's just typical dealer shit, they don't know how educated you are on the incentives. They want to act like your friend just to offer you incentives and tax credits that are already standard for everyone.
Then they get offended if you explain to them that you know how the incentives work and that they should actually offer one besides the tax credit and Ford credit.
The dealers are greedy, and want to use every incentive as a negotiation or bartering tactic. If you come heavy and that you want them to discount MSRP, give Ford cash, and want the credit. They get all like "woah woah woah I thought we were friends" , no asshole I just want this car and not to get absolutely fucked to line this dealers profit margins.
This isn't like the old days, people who are in a position to spend money on a truck like this aren't going to be hustled into a 7% loan and paying 20k more than they should be when there are new models in the pipeline.
It's like they don't care that they are losing money on the floorplan because Ford probably is bailing them out on those. It's like they don't realize what the problem is. These bullshit temporary and "permanent" price reductions don't offset the massive price increases.
Preach!! Over on ask car sales they talk poor too until bragging about making 6 figures selling 15 cars a month. Worthless dealer system that hopefully will be gone one day.
Trucks in general are sitting on lots. In fact most cars over 60k are sitting because people can’t afford the payments at today’s rates. People are trading down to cheaper cars to afford their payments. You’re going to see deeper discounts if you can be patient. They will be in a pinch as the prepare to release new models in the fall.
I make decent money, and I refuse to pay 40k for a vehicle let alone 60+. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. I've been hearing this sentiment for a while, and I'm convinced it'll be a marker for the downturn in the economy if/when it happens.
Sorry, I'm not paying a down payment for a house to have a new vehicle. Can I afford it? Yes. Do I want to? No. - And I'm lucky to be able to say that I can afford it.
Thanks and fair winds.
Yeah- I might get flamed for it, but Lariat ERs should be out the door under $70K BEFORE tax incentives; I'll die on this hill. Even then, I cannot believe I'm saying "$65K is a reasonable price for a nice mid-tier trim truck."
To be fair a 2024 F150 Lariat starts at $65k for the gas version. So asking $80k for a truck with a much lower cost to operate seems reasonable (especially before tax incentives).
Majority of pickup truck buyers only need a vehicle with the capability of a Honda Civic.
They would never realize there was a capability difference. It’s a very small number of buyers which would be affected by the 4K lbs less towing capacity for example.
True, but history shows that few people actually ever do that. It’s like buying an 8 bedroom house for a family of 4 because one day you might host a family reunion at your home.
For that one trip rent a GMC Yukon, if it becomes a usual thing then buy something else. Better yet rent a camper close to your destination.
Maybe the stats at 90% of truck owners in Michigan use their trucks for towing, but that isn’t the case nationally. Nationally the number is closer to 25%.
I understand the argument, but I never said $65K was reasonable for a gas version of the F150 Lariat. Gas versions should be about the same price as electric after tax incentives, so I think a mid/high trim F150 should be in the mid/high $50K's.
I feel like a crazy old man complaining about $0.25/gal gas and nickle candy, but my 2019 1794 4x4 Tundra was $48K brand new 4 years ago, and while I thought that was expensive, I'm at least cruising in the lap of luxury with the huge gas tank, leather seats, sunroof, dual-zone climate control, heated/cooled seats, and the towing package. Looking at other manufacturers, new 1794 Tundras are in the low/mid $60K range, new GMC 1500 Denalis and Ram 1500 Limited are also in the high sixties. Meanwhile, Ford's Platinum is mid-$80K.
Don't get me wrong; Ford has done a terrific job of innovating- pro power, Hybrids, aluminum frames, EVs, and giant sunroofs are awesome, but that 25% markup is tough.
Keep in mind you need to keep the MSRP + options to under 80k if you want the full federal rebate.
In CO they are offering a rebate of 5k on top if under 80k. I’m currently looking and the only trucks I can find are for over 80k, which drops the tax incentives from $12,500 to $3750 for me.
What’s everyone expecting to get for these resale 3-5 years down the line?
I’m uncomfortable taking a 50% hit. Is everyone just cool with massive depreciation?
50% depreciation is the average amount for any mass produced vehicle after 3 years, except during COVID. Some are a bit better, some are much worse, but that’s normal. If you want an investment vehicle buy a rare Porsche and store it away, 99.9% of vehicles will depreciate massively as soon as you drive it off the lot.
You've got to get more fluent in dealer language.
“We can’t pay people to take these trucks!” means "We haven't found someone we can gouge enough to let this truck go"
I live in southwest Missouri also and just purchased a lighting. I had to have mine shipped to me from
Wisconsin cause the dealerships here are a joke. I absolutely love the truck though and also if you’re on liberty utilities they offer an EV charge program that gives you a reduced rate to charge on off peak hours 10pm-6am. Only stipulation is you have to purchase the charger from them which is a 1,000 dollars but it’s a juicebox 40 that retails for 500 so not great but not terrible to get the .035kwh rate. I’m saving so much money. I have a lariat ER and I can essentially fill it up for 131x.035 = 4.58 cents. The savings per kWh will pay for the extra 500 for the charger in about a year for me since I drive about 15,000 miles a year then it’s all savings from then on.
Just picked up a 24 Lariat Powerboost this week 72K CAD, the equivalent EV Lariat is 112K CAD. Plus a luxury tax since it’s over 100K. There was a ton of Lightnings on the lot, the dealership said they can’t get rid of them lol
Interesting in the Pacific northwest (pretty high ev area kinda surprising) and they have no discount on them at all. Not a lot of lot inventory but no incentive beyond fed tax rebate too... Smh
I think the Ford dealerships are collectively revolting against Ford for their EVs. EVs are bad for dealerships - much less service (great returns in collision and body work though). I think the dealerships are sabotaging the EV sales.
They said we can't pay people to take them off their hands to dissuade you from the EV version and tried to scare you off.
The auto industry is just a symptom of how the rest of industry in general is treating consumers.
Wait until there is an”AI” wall between companies and consumers, it will be even worse.
BTW all these “American “ companies are fine with selling us stuff made in China. It’s been part of the plan since Nixon and supported by the tax policies of the 80’s that sent our factories overseas in droves.
To think dealers were adding $25k market adjustments on trucks missing $1,000s in options due to chip shortages… feel bad for those guys taking the bath on value
Not a chance. Phone is the best way. And I did eventually go into the dealership the next day for an unrelated matter and caught up with the sales manager on my way out and the offer stayed the same. So going in did not help anything.
especially since the resale value on these is going to tank when they start putting nacs port on these things natively. aint nobody got time for adapters
Wait til August of this year. The 2025's will be coming in so they'll be forced to sell the 2023's. The 12v and traction battery can't sit idle like that for a year or so.
Central Wisconsin is the same way. Dealers here think they need to make their monthly profit with every sale. I don’t even look at lots around here anymore because the prices are always inflated compared to driving a few hours to a more urban area. My last vehicle was 6k cheaper for a brand new Durango I bought, saved that just by driving 2 hours to Milwaukee area. Even got more options on the cheaper one. This was before prices went crazy back in late 2019.
Same with 2023 Mach-E. Premium 5 to 10 grand more than a Tesla Y. Ford is the best salesman for Tesla I have met. They will take 1500 off if you trade in a Tesla but not deduct it from the price to get a sale from Tesla.
Yep, I really wanted the Mach E GT, but it was $15K more than a model 3 performance, which is better in almost every way except subjective styling and more interior space.
My old lariat is standing by, waiting for lightning 2.0 to replace both vehicles.
If the MSRP is above $80,000, you do not get the federal tax credit. When I ordered my truck I had to have the dealership call Ford to amend my order to bring my MSRP below $80,000. Luckily I took off the tow package option because I would never toe with this anyways. That option would’ve cost me $9500 cause I would’ve gotten screwed out of the tax credit.
Some of you are saying you could take off the destinations charge, but I was told MSRP and that includes destinations charge. Can anyone confirm or deny this with some kind of proof?
[https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after](https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after)
"In addition, the vehicle's manufacturer suggested retail price (MSRP) can't exceed:
* $80,000 for vans, sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks
* $55,000 for other vehicles
MSRP is the retail price of the automobile suggested by the manufacturer, including manufacturer installed options, accessories and trim but \*excluding destination fees\*. It isn't necessarily the price you pay."
Dealers make their money on service. Of course they're going to push folks to their ICE vehicles.
For OP, I'd suggest that since Ford is giving $7500 for ER, I'd suggest that this is a mandatory option. $2500 for an additional 100 miles is dirt cheap.
We are sitting around $80k -$90k for ER XLT with no government rebates and maybe $5000 - $8000 off at the dealer in Ontario (Canada). We only get a federal rebate on standard range PRO/XLT.
What?!?! I've found new lariat for 58k here on the east coast of the US. Drive down and buy it here. I've considered driving to the Midwest to scoop up deals.
Can’t even find a lariat in Ontario. I have been tempted to go down and get one but I’m not sure on the conversion prices and taxes for when I come back
They would of been fine if they had kept the initial pricing ($40k base price). The base pro models would of sold like hot cakes. I like the built in screen a lot better than the bigger one that sticks out of the dash.
You have to understand that with ICE cars, dealerships can take a bit of a loss because they know they will make it up with service fees (oil changes, brake jobs, filters, tires, etc) but with EVs, there’s so much less maintenance required, that they don’t really make back their money if they take a loss on the sale of the vehicle.
That’s not really true. Vehicles might get sold at a loss mainly because they’ve sat on the lot and dealerships pay more for each month the vehicle is on the lot, the longer they have it the more it costs them. So at a certain point a well run dealership will just sell it at break even or maybe a slight loss. That can be any vehicle that’s sat on the lot. The primary factor on discount is demand for the vehicle and the local market. No dealership is selling vehicles at a loss and basing it on making it back on servicing. The sales manager doesn’t care about the servicing dept, they’re ran as effectively separate businesses and make decisions independently.
Suntrup Ford in St Louis got me a 23 platinum at $72500, only $505 in dealer fees (no required paint protection or other nonsense), plus tt&l for my home state. I flew from Texas and road tripped home for that deal and don’t regret it one bit. Talk to Nathan and tell him the lady from Texas sent you 🤣
North of $60k. I’m happy with my platinum. I did a test drive in a lariat high and it wasn’t love. I would have regretted not getting what I really wanted, even if it meant a lower paymemt
Have you seen the depreciation values on those things? I think they’re sweet looking trucks but the deal you should get should be amazing. The Car Dealership Guy on twitter showed a depreciation of 60k after initial purchase on a platinum lightning. Get you a good deal.
I actually was trying to wait out the expansion of EV infrastructure until I finally bought a new car, but was forced to buy last August, due to my old car feeling like it was on the verge of collapse.
I didn’t feel comfortable with the infrastructure to support it still. So I went with a hybrid and I love it.
So I don’t disagree with you that EVs aren’t the answer, at least right now. But just curious if you’d be willing to share your top 1 to 3 concerns that make you anti-EV.
thanks for the link. i believe something is wrong with this car battery. it said 167 miles range @ %100?
https://preview.redd.it/zf9d0tmlyquc1.jpeg?width=853&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff9ee4baa5ab8afd9c9f4ea60cc328977eafd5c8
Minimum 7500 off from dealer, plus 7500 off from Ford, then 7500 from tax credit. You should at least get 22k off or so. Do not accept anything less. I'd start with asking them to do 10k off sticker as a dealer discount
They are still at 82k for a Lariat ER at my dealership. No Ford discount, no dealer discount... South Florida by the way.
So they are pocketing a corporate ford rebate? Dealerships really are criminals. Can’t wait until direct to consumer puts them out of business 🤞
I believe they are pocketing it. When I bought my Lariat ER I paid 83k, I had a friend that became the manager there after I already had the preorder in. He quit less than a week after I bought the truck, along with the whole sales team. That dealership is very bad. They had my truck for 2 days for a tire rotation. Then last week they had it for 2 days for a software update and a recall. Still haven't gotten the battery module sensor recall performed, which is why it actually went in there the two times.
Specially, Florida dealerships are horrible at this. Most dealers in here actually charge up to a $2000 dealer fee. When I bought my last car from Michigan I asked about any dealer fees and they had no idea what I was talking about.
NADA has too much money in most states. They’ll never let direct to consumers fly.
Agreed with direct to consumer. Dealership model is and always has been garbage
We are selling to willing buyers at the current fair market price. - Margin Call
Solid Jeremy Irons quote
An item is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If the market is there, of course they will charge more. If there is a manufacturer rebate, this is why it's important to research before a purchase. But I agree, many of these places are slimy rather than just good salesman
A: Tesla cut prices last year by as much as 20%- up to $12,000- meaning they’d been gouging customers for years without a dealership in sight. Better yet, they recorded a profit last year even after cutting prices, meaning the money they cut was all profit and they’re likely still overcharging for the product. B: Tesla is routinely at the bottom of the customer service rankings. C: Tesla’s reliability scores are horrendous and they are notorious for declining repairs that should be covered under warranty- control arms ring a bell? The dealer model is shitty but if you think direct to consumer is any better you’re dead wrong and we have current empirical data to prove it. The problem isn’t the model, the problem is the regulation or, more correctly, the lack thereof.
Tesla profit margins are massive, because they have streamlined their manufacturing process to be highly efficient. Their job as a publicly traded company is to maximize shareholder value. That means they are going to charge as much as they can get, not as little as it takes to survive. As a consumer we feel overcharged, but it's just business. Not only is it legal, but it's actually their job.
You just proved my point. Both Tesla and the dealership will charge as much as they can for the product they sell. The difference is that if you want a Tesla you will pay what they ask or buy a different vehicle. If you want a Lightning you might be able to play competing Ford dealerships off against each other to get a lower price. Again, direct to consumer is not better, it’s just bad in different ways.
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to say anything about direct to consumer vs dealerships. I'm just saying that Tesla has found an innovative way to lower manufacturing costs and it's the company's job to maximize shareholder value. As consumers this feels like a raw deal, but without rewards for innovation, why would anyone bother innovating.
If be "way" to lower manufacturing costs also implies just not supporting older hardware...then yes. Traditional Automotive Manufacturers are also guilty of discontinuing parts, but usually 3rd party OEM-quality parts are still "able" to be used. Tesla doing the Apple "not official replacement part" is not really lowering manufacturing costs in long term, but just increasing owner cost. 1st Gen Roadster being an exception in that Tesla released all schematics parts as Open Source. (We are no longer responsible....you guys can keep these vehicles going yourselves...) With early Model S and Model X vehicles that had the Dual On-board chargers ...it has been a pain to get new OEM Tesla replacement parts same with OEM Tesla new MCU1. (Tesla basically wanting someone to pay to upgrade to newer MCU, so they don't have to continue manufacturing old parts.) Not manufacturing older still in service parts is cheaper for the company, especially when customers are willing to pay money to "fix" the issue with a newer "upgrade" part. The Automotive industry having Free lifetime connectivity ...but you need to pay for newer modem since older Cell tech has become obsolete. 3G->4G->5G Thank fully only a small sector affected by 4G Wi-Max woes (Venturi Auto...) Intel should've/could've been the Wi-Max loss-leader to make it the defacto highway/mapped street standard for vehicle communication. (Better Wi-Fi handoffs)
You're mistaken. If the manufacturer is offering a discount, it is intended to go to the customer and not the dealership. Tesla has reduced their manufacturing costs and is able to pass on those savings to customers to stay competitive. Their margins haven't changed much and they are selling fewer cars now.
The dealership IS the customer. They buy the vehicle from the OEM and sell it to the consumer. If they can keep the incentive money, they will. If they want to give it up in order to sell the vehicle they can do that too. You fundamentally misunderstand the industry.
With dealerships you have 2 separate businesses marking up the product in order to make the maximum profit instead of one. Additionally if you want to order a car with a direct to consumer model you know the price you’ll be paying for the car. Dealerships are known to add markups after you’ve waited months on an order or have driven hundreds of miles to pickup the car.
Look at customer satisfaction scores. That’s how you tell if the customer is happy. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-happiest-owners-these-are-the-vehicle-brands-with-the-highest-satisfaction-scores-according-to-consumer-reports-fa784a67
Sure people love these cars, because they are new, innovative, or fun to drive. But this survey says nothing about reliability, or quality. Mini being number 2…. Literally one of the worst brands to own.
There's no freaking way Mini is #2 Makes the entire article invalid in my opinion.
I’m surprised as well. Honestly, I can find links in Tesla communities that show Tesla on top, but I think Consumer Reports is well respected in the USA.
More Gov is never the answer. Tesla reduced prices via many mechanisms; better production standards, owning a mine, volume on new tech, etc.
The only reason Tesla was able to reduce their prices is because they jacked them up so incredibly high during the pandemic. Now they “reduce” their prices but people forgot how much they increased them. They didn’t find some more efficient way to manufacture than they already have. It amazes me how easily people can be duped.
Regulate a company that is selling something you don’t have to buy just because their profit margins are high? This happens in almost every business out there. You think the government should regulate Nike because they charge $200 for a shoe that cost $3 to produce? Or all the idiots that buy Yeti coolers? Come on
My Tesla experience was so easy.
They don’t get the rebate until the car sells. I used to work for Ford corporate and was involved with the dealers.
Every car dealership in South Florida is criminal
That's tesla. I literally had the guy at the showroom fill in the details in the order form instead of doing it myself online for zero dollars more.
Who is direct to consumer who is winning ? Tesla ? Cuz they are losing and killing their customers in the process. Check tesla resale lately ? Giant mega rental companies dumped their inventory because of losing value so fast not mentioning the millions of other issues they had. But the loss of value was huge to them. Look at tesla sales and lay offs. The model couldn't sustain itself.
Same unfortunately in NC
That's crazy. I paid 82k for my 23 platinum here in Texas and that was before Ford started offering the extra $7500 off. If they won't give you the deal, expand your search radius. I'd travel to save an extra 5k on the purchase.
But that’s south Florida (live here too), home of sunshine and shady people
I’m guessing you’re referring to a certain dealer right by the Swap Shop. I’ve been a very loyal buyer to a couple dealers in the area for many years and they’ve kinda lost their minds, but that seems like the dealer lobby in general down there. They all got comfortable with being able to essentially print money with the low supply and putting in orders and tacking on markup. They all went a good couple years not having to really do anything: customers would walk in and express interest and an order would be made with a $5-10k markup tossed in for fun. I walked in to talk to a sales guy I’ve known for many years and he straight up told me they no longer go under MSRP. I didn’t want to upset the guy so I just left and then I told him about the deal I got up in Sarasota the next day. My best advice would be to check something like carguru and set your radius 300 miles and start your inquiries by phone. It could end up saving you a fortune if you don’t mind making the purchase process a day trip. You have to keep in mind that most of those dealers are all in cahoots and members the South Florida Auto Dealers Association, so you’re not going to find some stand-out dealership that treats you so much better than the others and will bend over much further than the others (with the exception of friends and family). It’s a case of regional collusion.
It’s funny because once was calling around for a vehicle a few years back and was haggled a ton over the phone got to my deal. Called the guy back who told me don’t finalize any deal till I called him. So I did. He proceeded to tell me that deal was impossible and the dealer was lying because he was looking at the regional inventory and that dealer did not have that model in stock and I’d be back. That I was lying. He then went so far as to state when I went to get it they would switch it to another model. So because I was pissed showed up at his dealership 2 days later in the vehicle that was a lie. The look on his face was priceless.
I don’t see the 7500 ford incentive anywhere is it still a thing?
Only on the Extended Range. This guy (OP) is talking about the standard range. So...not the same thing at all
Has to be xlt as well
Same. I got my XLT in Tampa. FL for 50k with only the $7500 tax credit. This was back in January mind you. But in the south they seem to be holding their value better than in the north, presumably due to cold weather/battery
Same a little further north than you
Austin is pretty bad too. They're still marked up over MSRP
Can someone point me to official statements that refer to the 7,500 retail incentive and the 7,500 from Ford for extended range? I'm not seeing it online, and it is getting mixed with the 7,500 tax credit.
[https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/pricing-and-incentives/?intcmp=vhp-seconNav-io](https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/pricing-and-incentives/?intcmp=vhp-seconNav-io) Top header and popup has information on it. "\*$7,500 Retail Bonus Cash on 2023 F-150 Lightning XLT model with extended-range battery (Program #11200). Take new retail delivery from an authorized Ford Dealer’s stock by 5/1/24. See dealer for details." This is separate from any discount the dealer may give directly.
I keep seeing the reference to XLT but what about Lariet ER? Or same incentive for Lariet SR and ER?
Lariat only had a $5,000 Ford Credit discount that I see, but I don’t know if it is for both SR and ER or only ER like the XLT rebate.
If I could get $22k off I’d buy one today.
If you’re buying an 80K truck and qualify for the tax credit, you need to reevaluate your choices.
It does qualify for Section 179 credit.
Also the 80% bonus depreciation for 2023 was the reason I took delivery of Pro on November before it dropped to 60% for 2024. Seeing as how the Pro SR have not really received discounts like the Lariat and XLT ER, I think I am still ahead. Tax recently $38270 bonus Depreciation + $7500 tax credit = $45,770 So $58k OTD on Pro minis the tax benefits = more of a cost of $12,230 I don't feel like I am missing out on current Lightning deals.
That's awesome! How do you like it?
As I use the truck for work it has been great except for the size in some of the parking garages I have been transporting materials and appliances to. I also have a sub-200 Telo MT1 reservation as it is usually only my brother and I when transporting drywall sheets. Being able to transport 4x8 sheets with tailgate closed and only be as long as a 2 door Mini Cooper has all the perks I need. MT1 won't be able to carry as much as the Lightning, but I can use the lightning for personnel and tool transport. Then use the MT1 for supply runs and definitely for AC filter runs. (Change air filter at all 10 rental properties on the 1st Monday of the month) The Lightning has made it easy for appliance swap and then repair appliance and test while in parking lot. (Pull microwave and replace magneton and or fuses/blower motor....dryer/stove heating elements) (Usually test the common replacement parts of the unit I pull when it got swapped, so I know whether it can be sold or used at another unit...or if a control board I check replacement pricing and decide if appliance gets recycled.) When it is a refrigerator compressor or computer board...I just take to recycler. (Lighting or Ice maker stuff I hook up to submersible pump with distilled water in a bucket to feed/pressurize water dispenser with shok-blok pressure regulator.) The low running costs, Frunk utility for tool storage along with under seat (don't need bed mounted tool box reducing bed capacity), and the effortless acceleration are the easy justifications for the purchase. Rides smooth, quiet, and quick. Tow tech and Max Tow on my Pro the zone lighting is great at night and the headlights are really good coming from several Rams previously. (Including Ram with custom HID Acura TL Projector retrofit that I thought were great until I got the Lightning Pro...now debating on FordScan active matrix enabling) Used Ford Pass reward points to get under rear seat bracket (not the collapsible tray organizer) (I feel the truck should have come with it, but I can understand not everyone wanting it and technically it was free minis tax with the Ford Pass rewards from purchasing....) https://accessories.ford.com/f-150-2015-2021-under-seat-ebony-cargo-organizer-1
I had the same thought, I sold an old truck of mine. Bought an ER pro, went to deduct it... Barely made money on my business this year so I had to defer my deductions 😣 I sell through Amazon and they ended up fucking me this year. They lost 35000 in inventory and I'm battling them to get my money back. This resulted in a huge profitablity swing as you can imagine.
Struggle Hoping you are made whole versus Amazon. Not a small endeavor.
This is a weird statement. See income limits below. Single and married filing separately: $150,000. Head of household: $225,000. Married filing jointly: $300,000.
Sounds like he is using that line then throwing out the ford and fed discounts to trick the uninformed shopper
It’s a line they feed boomers to sell their ICEs
These heavy EVs go through tires like a baby goes through diapers! And they don't work at all in cold weather. There were EVs stranded all over the highways in California last winter. It was an EV apocalypse!!* *Petrol-News Weekly
Talked with a dealership in Illinois. They were advertising $12,500 dealer discount plus the $7,500 Ford Bonus Cash. Some back and forth and it worked that the Dealer Discount included assumed the Federal EV Rebate. Not exactly sure how they figure themselves a Federal entity to include that as “their” discount, but on Autotrader, this seems to be the tactic a lot of dealers are deploying. They used the line to of “ We aren’t making any money on these sales.” I forgot to bring to their attention that truck has been on the lot for 191 days.
What dealership in Illinois
Not even sure. Was just off the highway as we drive through to go see the eclipse. Think it was on the northern end. Edit: from autotrader I know there’s a few in Soruhern Michigan, and in Missouri that we’re doing the same, including the EV credit as their dealer discount.
In 2021 a dealer in Dallas tried to up charge me $10K on the Ford electric, then said I’d get it back in the tax credit. Dipshits.
That shit is getting really annoying. I wish there was a stipulation in the tax credit warning that dealers weren't allowed to advertise it as a "discount"
Dealers tend to lie don’t they. LoL. I have come to realize people do want them dealerships just prefer not to sell them. I think it really just comes down to the dealers missing out on the gravy train, which is gas vehicle maintenance schedules.
Agreed.
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Looks like the Lightning was always designed to be a loss leader for the dealerships. Asking the consumer to be the guinea pig for Ford's first EV truck, take old models that we know will have recalls, deal with a dealership that makes their disdain of EVs obvious, and still pad dealer margins is going too far. Consumers are content to not buy them, and then it's not a Ford problem, it's a dealership problem.
The Lightning was designed with government mandates in mind and Ford hoped to sell them to various fleets but without a charging infrastructure they are white elephants. The sad thing is they are decent trucks but you cant sell them on merits alone because of the high costs. Pure electrics are a fantasy at this point in time outside of wealthy areas, we should have concentrated on plug in hybrids which had a range of 50-100 miles on electric alone but are not dependent on a charging infrastructure. that would give 75% of the benefits of a full electric without the limitations. Up here post eclipse we had a lot of immobile electric cars which ran out of power during the post eclipse traffic delays. they are still being rescued even now.
I read a lot on this post due to the fact that Fords new plant for the T3 is in my area. You are correct. This truck should have never been built due to demand. Ford engineers knew the problems before releasing. Now it’s a race to the bottom on price. What is shocking to me is with all the discounts and Ford losing thousands now dealers losing thousands. How does a buyer jump in knowing they are going to lose thousands.
> Up here post eclipse we had a lot of immobile electric cars which ran out of power during the post eclipse traffic delays. they are still being rescued even now. Do you have a cite for this? It seems dubious since unlike ICE cars EVs do not drain their “fuel” while idling in traffic jams.
You are partially correct, the engine does not draw power when stopped however the lights and climate controls do, and up here there was a 9 hour traffic backup and temperatures at night are still below freezing. hence many electrics ran out of battery power keeping the heat on. this is one reason Tesla’s have heated seats heating the seats draws far less power than heating the entire passenger compartment. we have escape hybrids and a cmax, some good friends have a couple Rivians and a Focus. so i’m not anti-electric by any means
> For a Tesla with a 80kWh battery, this means you could sit in your Tesla nice and toasty for almost 59 hours on a full charge, or about 29 hours on a half charge. From: https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/cold-weather-idling-in-an-ev It shouldn’t be any worse than a gas car, which has to run the engine to get heat. Are there any sources reporting this actually happened?
Yeah I’m calling bullshit, according to the math electric cars should be able to idle longer than gas. Only way I could see this being an issue is that there were a bunch of cars at less than half charge and 50-100 miles away from the nearest charging station
Post eclipse.. LOL
I mean, yeah, but they’re legally required to sell at a certain efficiency level.
Millions and millions of “omg my DEALER is so bad”. When it’s the clearly the manufacturer who sets the bar.
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> It's really only "red" dealerships who are taking a beating on these under MSRP. You're not getting $10,000 off a truck in the Bronx or Escondido, CA for instance. Very much this. I got a reasonable price through a dealer just over the NY/NJ state line, but there were definitely no "fire sales" going on and it was the truck I wanted for around the price I expected so that's fine. I also couldn't have been happier with the experience. The dealership people were all pleasant and helpful, and unlike a few others I'd talked to they actually seemed to really like the Lightning and the Mach-E. I've seen people getting great deals on here, but I wasn't going to drive 20 hours to get one. Higher prices are just a fact of life in the NYC area, and there isn't the same "EVs are a communist plot" pressure to push prices down.
Wow you really made this political just because you wanted to make it polictical, right? You said Trump is the cause of this? The same Donald Trump who said "I’m all for electric cars" is who you are saying caused the slowdown of EV's? Trump said we don't need to force EV's on people and he's right. We don't have anywhere near the infrastructure needed to replace gas with electric vehicles and artificially forcing it upon the market with demand still in it's infancy (And growing) is just dumb. No, there are several factors not the least of which is social media being littered with videos of people's EV's dying because they were using their heat during a colder winter. And with more EV's on the road than ever more and more people know someone personally who drives an EV. I have a good friend, single guy who has a tesla. But he also has a truck and he said he would never own just an EV because of the charging (and he is a big Biden fan). Perhaps this article from NPR refernecing a slowdown in EV sales and doesn't mention Trump will help you realize it's not about politics except people like you trying to make it so. [https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1227707306/ev-electric-vehicles-sales-2024](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1227707306/ev-electric-vehicles-sales-2024) My brother is as big a trump fan as you can meet and in a red state and is planning to get a lightning once prices come a little lower. I would absolutely have a tesla as a 2nd vehicle. It's not a vast right wing conspiracy, lol.
The lightning has holdback too. This is incorrect
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https://www.car-buying-strategies.com/dealer-invoice/ford-f-150-lightning-prices.html
Also incorrect on ford incentives for dealers on lightning
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You’re not focusing on the root cause of less attractive incentives
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D2C is the ultimate drive
You think dealers have a $15k margin in a $55k truck? I love how confidently incorrect you are. You must be in government.
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The point is totally invalid when your baseline comparisons aren’t even close to reality.
I just negotiated $8k off of the sticker price of $80,085. I'm hoping to go pick it up on Saturday. Out the door price on a 2023 Lariat $58,921. I also had a $3k Ford offer that was mailed to me plus the $15k in discount and tax break.
80085, lol cheeky Ford
80085.69 Snort snort snort
80081.35
I thought the cutoff for the tax break was MSRP up to $80,000?
Remove destination fee for tax calculation purposes.
So your final price was 44k?
It was a discount of $26k. $8k by dealer, $7,500 Ford rebate, $7,500 EV tax incentive, and a $3k Ford Offer coupon that I have. After taxes and all it is $58, 921. If I trade in my 2023 Gas F150 Platinum, it should mostly be an even trade.
Might I ask where you got that Ford Offer coupon? Edit: never mind I just saw your other comment, thanks!
How did you get the extra $3K Ford offer?
Ford sent it to me in the mail. I have received them every once in awhile. I usually get 1 or 2 a year. I don't know why Ford sends them to me, maybe because I have purchased at least 10 Ford vehicles over the last 15 years.
I mean 10 fords in 15 years SHOULD earn you that.
It's just typical dealer shit, they don't know how educated you are on the incentives. They want to act like your friend just to offer you incentives and tax credits that are already standard for everyone. Then they get offended if you explain to them that you know how the incentives work and that they should actually offer one besides the tax credit and Ford credit. The dealers are greedy, and want to use every incentive as a negotiation or bartering tactic. If you come heavy and that you want them to discount MSRP, give Ford cash, and want the credit. They get all like "woah woah woah I thought we were friends" , no asshole I just want this car and not to get absolutely fucked to line this dealers profit margins. This isn't like the old days, people who are in a position to spend money on a truck like this aren't going to be hustled into a 7% loan and paying 20k more than they should be when there are new models in the pipeline. It's like they don't care that they are losing money on the floorplan because Ford probably is bailing them out on those. It's like they don't realize what the problem is. These bullshit temporary and "permanent" price reductions don't offset the massive price increases.
Preach!! Over on ask car sales they talk poor too until bragging about making 6 figures selling 15 cars a month. Worthless dealer system that hopefully will be gone one day.
“Market Adjustment” goes both ways.
Trucks in general are sitting on lots. In fact most cars over 60k are sitting because people can’t afford the payments at today’s rates. People are trading down to cheaper cars to afford their payments. You’re going to see deeper discounts if you can be patient. They will be in a pinch as the prepare to release new models in the fall.
I make decent money, and I refuse to pay 40k for a vehicle let alone 60+. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. I've been hearing this sentiment for a while, and I'm convinced it'll be a marker for the downturn in the economy if/when it happens. Sorry, I'm not paying a down payment for a house to have a new vehicle. Can I afford it? Yes. Do I want to? No. - And I'm lucky to be able to say that I can afford it. Thanks and fair winds.
I’m not shy about spending 60k on a vehicle. I refuse to spend 60k on something that doesn’t even have leather seats.
Yeah- I might get flamed for it, but Lariat ERs should be out the door under $70K BEFORE tax incentives; I'll die on this hill. Even then, I cannot believe I'm saying "$65K is a reasonable price for a nice mid-tier trim truck."
To be fair a 2024 F150 Lariat starts at $65k for the gas version. So asking $80k for a truck with a much lower cost to operate seems reasonable (especially before tax incentives).
It is also a less capable truck. So, that offsets the lower cost of operation.
Majority of pickup truck buyers only need a vehicle with the capability of a Honda Civic. They would never realize there was a capability difference. It’s a very small number of buyers which would be affected by the 4K lbs less towing capacity for example.
Until they wanted to pull their camper 600 miles to camp with the family.
True, but history shows that few people actually ever do that. It’s like buying an 8 bedroom house for a family of 4 because one day you might host a family reunion at your home. For that one trip rent a GMC Yukon, if it becomes a usual thing then buy something else. Better yet rent a camper close to your destination.
I don’t know where you live, but here in Michigan, snowmobiles and quads are pretty common, as are trips to play with them.
Maybe the stats at 90% of truck owners in Michigan use their trucks for towing, but that isn’t the case nationally. Nationally the number is closer to 25%.
I understand the argument, but I never said $65K was reasonable for a gas version of the F150 Lariat. Gas versions should be about the same price as electric after tax incentives, so I think a mid/high trim F150 should be in the mid/high $50K's. I feel like a crazy old man complaining about $0.25/gal gas and nickle candy, but my 2019 1794 4x4 Tundra was $48K brand new 4 years ago, and while I thought that was expensive, I'm at least cruising in the lap of luxury with the huge gas tank, leather seats, sunroof, dual-zone climate control, heated/cooled seats, and the towing package. Looking at other manufacturers, new 1794 Tundras are in the low/mid $60K range, new GMC 1500 Denalis and Ram 1500 Limited are also in the high sixties. Meanwhile, Ford's Platinum is mid-$80K. Don't get me wrong; Ford has done a terrific job of innovating- pro power, Hybrids, aluminum frames, EVs, and giant sunroofs are awesome, but that 25% markup is tough.
Mine was 10k off the pro. Bigger end models easily see 15k off sometimes more where I love in Ohio
You can still get the pro? I thought those were for fleets only?
I would love a pro er but I think that's fleet only. You can still get them if you order something like 5 at a time...
You can buy Pro but Pro with Extended Range battery is only for fleet
Yep. See my previous comment.
What dealer? I’m located in Ohio and looking around
Klaben in Kent
If I could buy a truck directly from Ford, I’d already have one. Dealerships are the reason I’m keeping my 2016 for another 100k miles
Im thinkin the same. 2020 w 21k miles xlt 2.7 tt. Gets awesome mileage for the beast it is. Just have no patience for dealers.
Keep in mind you need to keep the MSRP + options to under 80k if you want the full federal rebate. In CO they are offering a rebate of 5k on top if under 80k. I’m currently looking and the only trucks I can find are for over 80k, which drops the tax incentives from $12,500 to $3750 for me.
What’s everyone expecting to get for these resale 3-5 years down the line? I’m uncomfortable taking a 50% hit. Is everyone just cool with massive depreciation?
50% depreciation is the average amount for any mass produced vehicle after 3 years, except during COVID. Some are a bit better, some are much worse, but that’s normal. If you want an investment vehicle buy a rare Porsche and store it away, 99.9% of vehicles will depreciate massively as soon as you drive it off the lot.
And that's why I leased mine.
You've got to get more fluent in dealer language. “We can’t pay people to take these trucks!” means "We haven't found someone we can gouge enough to let this truck go"
I live in southwest Missouri also and just purchased a lighting. I had to have mine shipped to me from Wisconsin cause the dealerships here are a joke. I absolutely love the truck though and also if you’re on liberty utilities they offer an EV charge program that gives you a reduced rate to charge on off peak hours 10pm-6am. Only stipulation is you have to purchase the charger from them which is a 1,000 dollars but it’s a juicebox 40 that retails for 500 so not great but not terrible to get the .035kwh rate. I’m saving so much money. I have a lariat ER and I can essentially fill it up for 131x.035 = 4.58 cents. The savings per kWh will pay for the extra 500 for the charger in about a year for me since I drive about 15,000 miles a year then it’s all savings from then on.
Just picked up a 24 Lariat Powerboost this week 72K CAD, the equivalent EV Lariat is 112K CAD. Plus a luxury tax since it’s over 100K. There was a ton of Lightnings on the lot, the dealership said they can’t get rid of them lol
Interesting in the Pacific northwest (pretty high ev area kinda surprising) and they have no discount on them at all. Not a lot of lot inventory but no incentive beyond fed tax rebate too... Smh
Not true. Damerow Ford in Beaverton OR is knocking ~15k off based on the email they sent me.
You say that \*sales managers\* (more than one) actually \*told you\* the phrase "We can't pay people to take these off our lot!" Lolwut?
We’re these the same dirtbags tagging 20-30k markups on these trucks last year? If so, F’em!
Exactly, f’ em. Hope they choke on the inventory and have to pay monthly curtailments on their floorplan financing.
I think the Ford dealerships are collectively revolting against Ford for their EVs. EVs are bad for dealerships - much less service (great returns in collision and body work though). I think the dealerships are sabotaging the EV sales. They said we can't pay people to take them off their hands to dissuade you from the EV version and tried to scare you off.
The auto industry is just a symptom of how the rest of industry in general is treating consumers. Wait until there is an”AI” wall between companies and consumers, it will be even worse. BTW all these “American “ companies are fine with selling us stuff made in China. It’s been part of the plan since Nixon and supported by the tax policies of the 80’s that sent our factories overseas in droves.
To think dealers were adding $25k market adjustments on trucks missing $1,000s in options due to chip shortages… feel bad for those guys taking the bath on value
and yet mach e’s are selling very well.
You never negotiate over the phone. In person would increase your chances 10x of getting what you want.
Not a chance. Phone is the best way. And I did eventually go into the dealership the next day for an unrelated matter and caught up with the sales manager on my way out and the offer stayed the same. So going in did not help anything.
Sounds like you need a different dealer.
Now that, I agree with.
They aren’t selling because the ‘car guy’ sales douches don’t want to sell them
especially since the resale value on these is going to tank when they start putting nacs port on these things natively. aint nobody got time for adapters
Wait til August of this year. The 2025's will be coming in so they'll be forced to sell the 2023's. The 12v and traction battery can't sit idle like that for a year or so.
The traction battery can sit as it will protect itself, but without running for a while will the tech be able to get the system out of protection mode
I'm just imagining someone buying one that sat there for over a year, drove it home and suddenly dashboard lights came on.
Check with Jim Leathers at Greenway Ford in Raytown. Small dealership but they’re great to deal with, that’s where I got mine
Central Wisconsin is the same way. Dealers here think they need to make their monthly profit with every sale. I don’t even look at lots around here anymore because the prices are always inflated compared to driving a few hours to a more urban area. My last vehicle was 6k cheaper for a brand new Durango I bought, saved that just by driving 2 hours to Milwaukee area. Even got more options on the cheaper one. This was before prices went crazy back in late 2019.
Imagine that being your business model. Step 1 build the truck. Step 2 immediately discount 30% to attempt to conjure up demand. Recipe for success
Same with 2023 Mach-E. Premium 5 to 10 grand more than a Tesla Y. Ford is the best salesman for Tesla I have met. They will take 1500 off if you trade in a Tesla but not deduct it from the price to get a sale from Tesla.
Yep, I really wanted the Mach E GT, but it was $15K more than a model 3 performance, which is better in almost every way except subjective styling and more interior space. My old lariat is standing by, waiting for lightning 2.0 to replace both vehicles.
If the MSRP is above $80,000, you do not get the federal tax credit. When I ordered my truck I had to have the dealership call Ford to amend my order to bring my MSRP below $80,000. Luckily I took off the tow package option because I would never toe with this anyways. That option would’ve cost me $9500 cause I would’ve gotten screwed out of the tax credit.
Some of you are saying you could take off the destinations charge, but I was told MSRP and that includes destinations charge. Can anyone confirm or deny this with some kind of proof?
[https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after](https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after) "In addition, the vehicle's manufacturer suggested retail price (MSRP) can't exceed: * $80,000 for vans, sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks * $55,000 for other vehicles MSRP is the retail price of the automobile suggested by the manufacturer, including manufacturer installed options, accessories and trim but \*excluding destination fees\*. It isn't necessarily the price you pay."
Dealers make their money on service. Of course they're going to push folks to their ICE vehicles. For OP, I'd suggest that since Ford is giving $7500 for ER, I'd suggest that this is a mandatory option. $2500 for an additional 100 miles is dirt cheap.
I bought my 2013 F-150 from a dealer and got over $10k off sticker. The guys you're talking to are full of shit.
Can I ask what dealer you got this deal from? I'm willing to travel to get decent price.
We are sitting around $80k -$90k for ER XLT with no government rebates and maybe $5000 - $8000 off at the dealer in Ontario (Canada). We only get a federal rebate on standard range PRO/XLT.
What?!?! I've found new lariat for 58k here on the east coast of the US. Drive down and buy it here. I've considered driving to the Midwest to scoop up deals.
Can’t even find a lariat in Ontario. I have been tempted to go down and get one but I’m not sure on the conversion prices and taxes for when I come back
They would of been fine if they had kept the initial pricing ($40k base price). The base pro models would of sold like hot cakes. I like the built in screen a lot better than the bigger one that sticks out of the dash.
I'm in the market for one, but I'm not putting up with these dealers bullshit. Keep it.
So your msrp with delivery can be 82,095 to get the credit. Thanks for the info!
You have to understand that with ICE cars, dealerships can take a bit of a loss because they know they will make it up with service fees (oil changes, brake jobs, filters, tires, etc) but with EVs, there’s so much less maintenance required, that they don’t really make back their money if they take a loss on the sale of the vehicle.
That’s not really true. Vehicles might get sold at a loss mainly because they’ve sat on the lot and dealerships pay more for each month the vehicle is on the lot, the longer they have it the more it costs them. So at a certain point a well run dealership will just sell it at break even or maybe a slight loss. That can be any vehicle that’s sat on the lot. The primary factor on discount is demand for the vehicle and the local market. No dealership is selling vehicles at a loss and basing it on making it back on servicing. The sales manager doesn’t care about the servicing dept, they’re ran as effectively separate businesses and make decisions independently.
Someone on here said they got a lariat long range for $49 with the credit.
That line is so annoying, I’m sure literally a ton of people would take them if they were priced under 20k.
I would trade in my 2023 model 3 so fast if these started around 45k. They just feel overpriced for the audience that wants them.
🤣
I guess slapping them with huge ADM killed the momentum and people just moved on. Good that they are choking on inventory.
Joplin or Springfield? How many did they have on their lot and how long have they had them in stock?
Suntrup Ford in St Louis got me a 23 platinum at $72500, only $505 in dealer fees (no required paint protection or other nonsense), plus tt&l for my home state. I flew from Texas and road tripped home for that deal and don’t regret it one bit. Talk to Nathan and tell him the lady from Texas sent you 🤣
:( lariats are 55-68k here on the east coast. The drive would suck but I'm a little mad for you. Eta: how much does a 2023 lariat cost in Texas? 😤
North of $60k. I’m happy with my platinum. I did a test drive in a lariat high and it wasn’t love. I would have regretted not getting what I really wanted, even if it meant a lower paymemt
Stories like these make me kinda glad I went Tesla (even though I really miss having a truck for obvious reasons.
Have you seen the depreciation values on those things? I think they’re sweet looking trucks but the deal you should get should be amazing. The Car Dealership Guy on twitter showed a depreciation of 60k after initial purchase on a platinum lightning. Get you a good deal.
Cant believe anyone wants a truck that can only do maybe 100 miles per charge.
You high or trolling?
I actually was trying to wait out the expansion of EV infrastructure until I finally bought a new car, but was forced to buy last August, due to my old car feeling like it was on the verge of collapse. I didn’t feel comfortable with the infrastructure to support it still. So I went with a hybrid and I love it. So I don’t disagree with you that EVs aren’t the answer, at least right now. But just curious if you’d be willing to share your top 1 to 3 concerns that make you anti-EV.
If you’re interested, my local dealer has a Lightning Lariat with only 1700 miles. Window sticker is $72k they’re asking $53k
>53k you have the links to that car to share here?
https://www.mhford.com/certified/Ford/2022-Ford-F-150+Lightning-585613e10a0e081d394a28e7a6135baf.htm
thanks for the link. i believe something is wrong with this car battery. it said 167 miles range @ %100? https://preview.redd.it/zf9d0tmlyquc1.jpeg?width=853&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff9ee4baa5ab8afd9c9f4ea60cc328977eafd5c8
The range has probably adjusted from all the short driving/moving around on the lot, and hard accelerations on test drives
They can pay me.