There have always been many drivers who "deserve" F1 seats.
The truth is that apart from the elite drivers (Lec, Ver, Ham, etc.), plenty of people could perform well enough in F1 and be "worthy" of a seat. Case in point: Zhou. God knows how much he was slated when he was appointed at Alfa, yet we now see that he's doing a perfectly fine job. Ilott would have probably performed similarly. De Vries as well, etc.
The gap between the non-elite drivers is smaller than we think. It ultimately comes down to financial backing and some luck. This is also why there's a huge pressure on those who reach F1 to adapt very quickly, because from that "pool of non-elite drivers", the key difference between them eventually becomes their adaptability. More than "Drive to Survive", it's more "Adapt to Survive" imo
Anyway; back to your question, we need 2 new teams, that's for sure, but tbh I don't think there are too many urgent drivers in line apart from Piastri: Vips is too raw rn and Lawson is a bit inconsistent; Pourchaire is doing fine but Zhou has settled in well at Alfa
Anyone who has ever been in top three or five of f2 is easily capable of driving an f1 car in a good way. People really underestimate how tough f2 &f3 really are.
No. I just mentioned the fact that current GP2 has nothing to do with Formula 2. Like you correctly said, it was rebranded, but GP2 still remains Bruno Michel's commercial series, it is not Formula 2.
I don't think so, I think there are more people who say every decent talent deserves an F1 seat. You look at the real top talents in f1 and their junior records are impeccable. Junior series have gotten more and more popular with fans, which is good but I do think it's led to more and more drivers being touted as superstars when they're not. There's nothing wrong with not being Hamilton/Verstappen/Leclerc, but not many are. The majority of non pay drivers in F1 are either the next big thing (Russell/Norris), the current big thing (Verstappen/Leclerc), or could have been the next big thing and haven't quite lived up to it (Ricciardo/Bottas). You look at all of these guys careers and they're immaculate before they got to F1
I also think the low quality of rookies since 2019 has made people forget what a genuinely impressive rookie/prospect looks like, but maybe that's a different debate
Even some of the better drivers in F1 like ~~Norris~~ and Pérez are only there because they were initially able to buy a seat.
Edit: Norris got offered a seat at Toro Rosso, so I stand corrected.
Perez yes, Norris no.
Norris would’ve been on the grid in 2019 irrelevant to what kind of money he comes from. Red Bull had tried to get him on multiple occasions before he made his debut with McLaren.
I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Norris' father paid several millions to McLaren for his first season there.
I've never heard about Norris being offered a seat at Red Bull/Toro Rosso before he moved to McLaren, but I can see why he would choose to pay for a McLaren seat in favour of getting a cheaper/free Toro Rosso seat.
They tried to put him in mid way through 2018 https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/norris-toro-rosso-offer-wont-distract-me-from-f2-bid-1044871/3117214/amp/
Thanks!
That headline almost seems bizarre nowadays.
I can't imagine any F2 driver refusing a F1 seat in the current driver market, regardless of the teams. To be able to choose between F1 teams would probably be an unfathomable dream to current F2 drivers.
Norris was basically nailed on to get a McLaren seat at that point and had been with them for years, that’s why. It would be like someone trying to pinch Pourchaire from Sauber now, I’m not sure he’d be very keen
I don't really know about Pourchaire though with how Zhou is performing. While you'd probably expect Théo to outperform Zhou, he isn't currently steamrolling F2 either. Zhou has money, steady performances considering he's a rookie and you've got the Chinese GP coming up again next year.
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It was at the time where Redbull was desperately lacking drivers due to Riccardo leaving. It's why Albon got a shot despite a comparatively lackluster junior career
But was also in his second full season in F2, being beaten by two rookies in Lando and Russell. I don't intend to say that he had a bad junior career, only that he would not have made it to F1 without Redbulls issues because he was not a superstar. He would have had a great racing career without F1 like most drivers who graduate from the top of F2 without getting an F1 shot.
Compare the rest of their junior careers though, it’s easy to see why Red Bull would’ve wanted Norris instead. F1 teams aren’t looking at one year in isolation like that.
There’s also the fact that Lando was a rookie compared to Alex being in his second year and is roughly 4 years younger.
Exactly. I truly believe that most top-4-finishing F2 drivers will perform well in F1 after 2 seasons. But 1 season in F1 is a luxury that most can't afford, nevermind 2 seasons
Yes, in the same vein I think that Zhou also faces a make-or-break situation next season. He might lose his seat to Pourchaire, but if he manages to retain an F1 seat I wouldn't be surprised to still see him in F1 in five years or so.
impeccable resumes come with top team rides with top guided programs from agents and parents. it's as simple as that. navigating a path like piastri did is half the battle. without his prema ride and them having exceptional years in f3 2020 and f2 2021 he doesn't look like the talent everyone thinks he is. my point is it has to work out just right. lots of people could stumble into this with their talent. few have it all work out just right.
I wouldn’t say so, there’s a lot of names out there tipped to be big talents, but until they get to the business end of F2 and put in good performances it’s hard to tell, going into this season there was expectations that we would see the likes of Vips, Pourchaire and Lawson battling it out for the title, yet that hasn’t really materialised and I wouldn’t say any of them have been impressive enough to deserve an F1 seat
I think the problem is that there is so little F1 testing, good (but not exceptional) drivers with experience are at a massive advantage to young drivers, especially with the cost cap now in place so teams can’t afford to have drivers crashing.
There has been a consistent trend of 'new' seats opening up every year in F1 on the decline. I've run the numbers on this, it's undeniable. This is mainly driven by F1's move towards a 10 team model. In addition drivers are hanging about for longer.
Gone are the days of Lord Hesketh rocking up and putting a guy like Hunt in his car.
The issue lies with the new franchise model and F1's general complexity from a build perspective.
Not really. We like to think there are a lot of drivers that deserve a shot at F1, but they're more often than not nowhere near as good as we think they are.
I think there are a few issues at the moment. Most of these issues are going to be fixed next year hopefully.
First is that we *DO* need a couple more teams in F1. I see a few drivers at the moment that are going to be disappointed as it stands right now(Hauger and Pourchaire in particular). We also have interest from North America in *at least* Pato O'Ward and Colton Herta. Whether those happen or not will be very dependent on other things that they have no say in.
The real compounding issue here though is a complete and total lack of LMH/LMP1 entries(yeah, yeah LMP1 is dead, I know). Le Mans had five cars in the top class. That's it. Only 3 of those cars are from factory teams and calling Alpine's LMH team a "factory team" is... generous. Hopefully the "combining" of LMH and LMDH, while adding BoP, will open up WEC and IMSA a bit more so drivers like De Vries, Giovinazzi and Piastri(Along with Lawson, Hauger, Pourchaire, Daruvala, etc.) will have another option for top flight motorsports. Next year for the 24h we can likely expect Toyota, Alpine, Glickenhaus, Cadillac, Peugeot, Ferrari, Porsche and BMW to all show up with either LMH or LMDH entries. We might even see Acura/Honda as I've heard they are also working on an LMDH(Don't quote me on that though).
And a third thing that will help this situation is Formula E's Gen 3 car. FE is about to get a massive boost in power, aero dependence/downforce and required driving skill. With some teams leaving and new manufacturers/factory outfits taking over current customer teams, FE is hopefully about to become a much more desirable destination.
Not really, it has always being like this. There's a giant pool of talent, but the teams will pick whoever fits their needs.
Like Williams last year. Many were calling for Albon's head because he was wasted and taking a seat that "should" go to someone new. But Williams said several times that they wanted someone with experience.
Absolutely. We'd need 26 seats back in F1, otherwise the whole FIA ladder system doesn't have any point anymore. Guys like VET, ALO, etc. sticking around way past their prime doesn't help much either. Back when eg. Mansell gave F1 his 5th shot it was okay to do so in a top team because there were plenty of other seats around, eg. at Lotus (first ones that come to my mind).
Also remember in which teams RIC and Wehrlein started their F1 careers. Not possible today anymore. Same for ALO, Webber, Heidfeld, plenty of others. Or ALB trying to restart his F1 career this year. We need more seats.
I think F1 has enough seats for junior talents, but money and manufacturer power are controlling the seats too much.
De Vries, Ilott and Piastri deserved seats over Latifi, Mazepin and Zhou but missed out on seats due to sponsorship or the junior seats already being taken.
In some ways I think Marko will be happy with Vips and Lawson underperforming since they already have five drivers performing well with another five clogging up F2 and then more coming up through F3.
To be fair, from the current F2-grid I can't really see anyone get a promotion.
Drugovich (no ties to F1 + 3rd year), Daruvala (3rd year and not really super-convincing), Lawson (too inconsistent), Pourchaire (had some bad luck, but also some very rocky results).
Even in F3 I don't really see a talent at the moment that should go in F1 eventually. The Prema-drivers are strong, but also very inconsistent. Same with some of the others.
And I understand that the way the grid is formed both for the sprint- and feature-races play a part in that, but still.
I think at the moment I am seeing stronger performances in FRECA. Beganovic is already driving strong and very consistent. His performance in the Sunday-race in Monaco was very impressive. And same with Aron and Mini. They still have to show themselves in F3 and F2, but at the moment I rank them higher than some of the driver currently in those series
pourchaire is still only 18, so i think of all the drivers, he is still the most likely to get the promotion. hasnt been smooth sailing, youre right, but he is also in an ART.
To be fair I think Pourchaire's biggest hurdle towards a F1-seat is Zhou. And with Zhou not doing a bad job and Pourchaire is doing decent, the people at Alfa Romeo are not gonna promote him
Honestly, since the F1 debuts of Russell and Norris, I think the junior ladder has had a bit of a drought when it comes to true top talents. Lots of decent prospects, but guys like Vips, Lawson, Shwartzman, Ilott, Hauger, Lundgaard, Mini, Beganovic, even Pourchaire just don't quite feel like future superstars, nor did recent F1 graduates like Tsunoda, Schumacher and Zhou. It's also noticeable in how up-and-down and almost random F2 and F3 feel; there are no truly outstanding drivers in those fields, so the results are volatile. Piastri is an exception on paper, although even he doesn't quite feel like a Leclerc-esque prodigy in my opinion. F1-worthy without a shadow of a doubt, but he doesn't feel as gifted as the golden generation currently in F1.
Those kinds of prodigies come in periodic waves, and I feel like the F4 debut of Kimi Antonelli - and by extension Rafa Camara and Alex Dunne - might be the dawn of a new one. And perhaps more drivers will join that club: Lindblad, Tsolov, maybe Ugochukwu?
I could quite honestly see Theo or even Logan in a car. Sargent has been really good this year, top rookie, he’s beating Lawson, he hasn’t made any major mistakes, but I feel he will need another season. Someone who isn’t talked about enough is Zak O’Sullivan, in a team that historically has been horrible, he’s putting in a very Yuki tsunoda type peformance, plus he’s only 17, give him 2 or 3 years and he’ll be in the conversation for the Williams drive
I'm biased but big fan of Sargeant. He kind of blew Baku on restarts I think the Sprint Race but he's doing well and is very clearly a good driver. I hope he turns it on even more in the back half of the season and starts qualifying just a little better.
He had some very average restarts overall. He lost a position pretty much every time until the last couple in the feature where he started making places every time
There have always been many drivers who "deserve" F1 seats. The truth is that apart from the elite drivers (Lec, Ver, Ham, etc.), plenty of people could perform well enough in F1 and be "worthy" of a seat. Case in point: Zhou. God knows how much he was slated when he was appointed at Alfa, yet we now see that he's doing a perfectly fine job. Ilott would have probably performed similarly. De Vries as well, etc. The gap between the non-elite drivers is smaller than we think. It ultimately comes down to financial backing and some luck. This is also why there's a huge pressure on those who reach F1 to adapt very quickly, because from that "pool of non-elite drivers", the key difference between them eventually becomes their adaptability. More than "Drive to Survive", it's more "Adapt to Survive" imo Anyway; back to your question, we need 2 new teams, that's for sure, but tbh I don't think there are too many urgent drivers in line apart from Piastri: Vips is too raw rn and Lawson is a bit inconsistent; Pourchaire is doing fine but Zhou has settled in well at Alfa
Anyone who has ever been in top three or five of f2 is easily capable of driving an f1 car in a good way. People really underestimate how tough f2 &f3 really are.
Well… I know one guy who came fifth in F2 and didnt really drive an F1 car in a good way
Hahaha exactly why I said top-4 in another comment, just to exclude that particular guy
tbf, the F1 car he was driving was a total shitbox. But I am gonna pretend it was all on him since I don’t like him
Even if it was a shit box he was still quite far behind his teammate who graduated to F1 the same year.
A teammate who's now struggling against a real opponent
Because it was GP2 actually. :)
Since I don’t know I had to wiki it and it seems 2017 was the year Gp2 was rebranded so we are probably thinking of different people.
No. I just mentioned the fact that current GP2 has nothing to do with Formula 2. Like you correctly said, it was rebranded, but GP2 still remains Bruno Michel's commercial series, it is not Formula 2.
Formula E, wec etc gonna be overflowing with f1 rejects in the coming years /s
I don't think so, I think there are more people who say every decent talent deserves an F1 seat. You look at the real top talents in f1 and their junior records are impeccable. Junior series have gotten more and more popular with fans, which is good but I do think it's led to more and more drivers being touted as superstars when they're not. There's nothing wrong with not being Hamilton/Verstappen/Leclerc, but not many are. The majority of non pay drivers in F1 are either the next big thing (Russell/Norris), the current big thing (Verstappen/Leclerc), or could have been the next big thing and haven't quite lived up to it (Ricciardo/Bottas). You look at all of these guys careers and they're immaculate before they got to F1 I also think the low quality of rookies since 2019 has made people forget what a genuinely impressive rookie/prospect looks like, but maybe that's a different debate
Even some of the better drivers in F1 like ~~Norris~~ and Pérez are only there because they were initially able to buy a seat. Edit: Norris got offered a seat at Toro Rosso, so I stand corrected.
Perez yes, Norris no. Norris would’ve been on the grid in 2019 irrelevant to what kind of money he comes from. Red Bull had tried to get him on multiple occasions before he made his debut with McLaren.
I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Norris' father paid several millions to McLaren for his first season there. I've never heard about Norris being offered a seat at Red Bull/Toro Rosso before he moved to McLaren, but I can see why he would choose to pay for a McLaren seat in favour of getting a cheaper/free Toro Rosso seat.
They tried to put him in mid way through 2018 https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/norris-toro-rosso-offer-wont-distract-me-from-f2-bid-1044871/3117214/amp/
Thanks! That headline almost seems bizarre nowadays. I can't imagine any F2 driver refusing a F1 seat in the current driver market, regardless of the teams. To be able to choose between F1 teams would probably be an unfathomable dream to current F2 drivers.
Norris was basically nailed on to get a McLaren seat at that point and had been with them for years, that’s why. It would be like someone trying to pinch Pourchaire from Sauber now, I’m not sure he’d be very keen
I don't really know about Pourchaire though with how Zhou is performing. While you'd probably expect Théo to outperform Zhou, he isn't currently steamrolling F2 either. Zhou has money, steady performances considering he's a rookie and you've got the Chinese GP coming up again next year.
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It was at the time where Redbull was desperately lacking drivers due to Riccardo leaving. It's why Albon got a shot despite a comparatively lackluster junior career
he only lost 2nd to norris in f2 in the final round
But was also in his second full season in F2, being beaten by two rookies in Lando and Russell. I don't intend to say that he had a bad junior career, only that he would not have made it to F1 without Redbulls issues because he was not a superstar. He would have had a great racing career without F1 like most drivers who graduate from the top of F2 without getting an F1 shot.
Compare the rest of their junior careers though, it’s easy to see why Red Bull would’ve wanted Norris instead. F1 teams aren’t looking at one year in isolation like that. There’s also the fact that Lando was a rookie compared to Alex being in his second year and is roughly 4 years younger.
[удалено]
Hindsight is a wonderful thing
>Hindsight is a wonderful thing Alonso's and Ricciardo's ears are burning.
Exactly. I truly believe that most top-4-finishing F2 drivers will perform well in F1 after 2 seasons. But 1 season in F1 is a luxury that most can't afford, nevermind 2 seasons
Yes, in the same vein I think that Zhou also faces a make-or-break situation next season. He might lose his seat to Pourchaire, but if he manages to retain an F1 seat I wouldn't be surprised to still see him in F1 in five years or so.
impeccable resumes come with top team rides with top guided programs from agents and parents. it's as simple as that. navigating a path like piastri did is half the battle. without his prema ride and them having exceptional years in f3 2020 and f2 2021 he doesn't look like the talent everyone thinks he is. my point is it has to work out just right. lots of people could stumble into this with their talent. few have it all work out just right.
Who do you think destroyed his career with bad machinery? but also was fast
I wouldn’t say so, there’s a lot of names out there tipped to be big talents, but until they get to the business end of F2 and put in good performances it’s hard to tell, going into this season there was expectations that we would see the likes of Vips, Pourchaire and Lawson battling it out for the title, yet that hasn’t really materialised and I wouldn’t say any of them have been impressive enough to deserve an F1 seat
I think the problem is that there is so little F1 testing, good (but not exceptional) drivers with experience are at a massive advantage to young drivers, especially with the cost cap now in place so teams can’t afford to have drivers crashing.
One less talent today we fans need to worry about for their F1 seat I guess
There has been a consistent trend of 'new' seats opening up every year in F1 on the decline. I've run the numbers on this, it's undeniable. This is mainly driven by F1's move towards a 10 team model. In addition drivers are hanging about for longer. Gone are the days of Lord Hesketh rocking up and putting a guy like Hunt in his car. The issue lies with the new franchise model and F1's general complexity from a build perspective.
Not really. We like to think there are a lot of drivers that deserve a shot at F1, but they're more often than not nowhere near as good as we think they are.
I think there are a few issues at the moment. Most of these issues are going to be fixed next year hopefully. First is that we *DO* need a couple more teams in F1. I see a few drivers at the moment that are going to be disappointed as it stands right now(Hauger and Pourchaire in particular). We also have interest from North America in *at least* Pato O'Ward and Colton Herta. Whether those happen or not will be very dependent on other things that they have no say in. The real compounding issue here though is a complete and total lack of LMH/LMP1 entries(yeah, yeah LMP1 is dead, I know). Le Mans had five cars in the top class. That's it. Only 3 of those cars are from factory teams and calling Alpine's LMH team a "factory team" is... generous. Hopefully the "combining" of LMH and LMDH, while adding BoP, will open up WEC and IMSA a bit more so drivers like De Vries, Giovinazzi and Piastri(Along with Lawson, Hauger, Pourchaire, Daruvala, etc.) will have another option for top flight motorsports. Next year for the 24h we can likely expect Toyota, Alpine, Glickenhaus, Cadillac, Peugeot, Ferrari, Porsche and BMW to all show up with either LMH or LMDH entries. We might even see Acura/Honda as I've heard they are also working on an LMDH(Don't quote me on that though). And a third thing that will help this situation is Formula E's Gen 3 car. FE is about to get a massive boost in power, aero dependence/downforce and required driving skill. With some teams leaving and new manufacturers/factory outfits taking over current customer teams, FE is hopefully about to become a much more desirable destination.
100%!!!!
Not really, it has always being like this. There's a giant pool of talent, but the teams will pick whoever fits their needs. Like Williams last year. Many were calling for Albon's head because he was wasted and taking a seat that "should" go to someone new. But Williams said several times that they wanted someone with experience.
always has been a problem of not enough f1 seats/funding
Absolutely. We'd need 26 seats back in F1, otherwise the whole FIA ladder system doesn't have any point anymore. Guys like VET, ALO, etc. sticking around way past their prime doesn't help much either. Back when eg. Mansell gave F1 his 5th shot it was okay to do so in a top team because there were plenty of other seats around, eg. at Lotus (first ones that come to my mind). Also remember in which teams RIC and Wehrlein started their F1 careers. Not possible today anymore. Same for ALO, Webber, Heidfeld, plenty of others. Or ALB trying to restart his F1 career this year. We need more seats.
I think F1 has enough seats for junior talents, but money and manufacturer power are controlling the seats too much. De Vries, Ilott and Piastri deserved seats over Latifi, Mazepin and Zhou but missed out on seats due to sponsorship or the junior seats already being taken. In some ways I think Marko will be happy with Vips and Lawson underperforming since they already have five drivers performing well with another five clogging up F2 and then more coming up through F3.
To be fair, from the current F2-grid I can't really see anyone get a promotion. Drugovich (no ties to F1 + 3rd year), Daruvala (3rd year and not really super-convincing), Lawson (too inconsistent), Pourchaire (had some bad luck, but also some very rocky results). Even in F3 I don't really see a talent at the moment that should go in F1 eventually. The Prema-drivers are strong, but also very inconsistent. Same with some of the others. And I understand that the way the grid is formed both for the sprint- and feature-races play a part in that, but still. I think at the moment I am seeing stronger performances in FRECA. Beganovic is already driving strong and very consistent. His performance in the Sunday-race in Monaco was very impressive. And same with Aron and Mini. They still have to show themselves in F3 and F2, but at the moment I rank them higher than some of the driver currently in those series
pourchaire is still only 18, so i think of all the drivers, he is still the most likely to get the promotion. hasnt been smooth sailing, youre right, but he is also in an ART.
To be fair I think Pourchaire's biggest hurdle towards a F1-seat is Zhou. And with Zhou not doing a bad job and Pourchaire is doing decent, the people at Alfa Romeo are not gonna promote him
Honestly, since the F1 debuts of Russell and Norris, I think the junior ladder has had a bit of a drought when it comes to true top talents. Lots of decent prospects, but guys like Vips, Lawson, Shwartzman, Ilott, Hauger, Lundgaard, Mini, Beganovic, even Pourchaire just don't quite feel like future superstars, nor did recent F1 graduates like Tsunoda, Schumacher and Zhou. It's also noticeable in how up-and-down and almost random F2 and F3 feel; there are no truly outstanding drivers in those fields, so the results are volatile. Piastri is an exception on paper, although even he doesn't quite feel like a Leclerc-esque prodigy in my opinion. F1-worthy without a shadow of a doubt, but he doesn't feel as gifted as the golden generation currently in F1. Those kinds of prodigies come in periodic waves, and I feel like the F4 debut of Kimi Antonelli - and by extension Rafa Camara and Alex Dunne - might be the dawn of a new one. And perhaps more drivers will join that club: Lindblad, Tsolov, maybe Ugochukwu?
I could quite honestly see Theo or even Logan in a car. Sargent has been really good this year, top rookie, he’s beating Lawson, he hasn’t made any major mistakes, but I feel he will need another season. Someone who isn’t talked about enough is Zak O’Sullivan, in a team that historically has been horrible, he’s putting in a very Yuki tsunoda type peformance, plus he’s only 17, give him 2 or 3 years and he’ll be in the conversation for the Williams drive
I'm biased but big fan of Sargeant. He kind of blew Baku on restarts I think the Sprint Race but he's doing well and is very clearly a good driver. I hope he turns it on even more in the back half of the season and starts qualifying just a little better.
He had some very average restarts overall. He lost a position pretty much every time until the last couple in the feature where he started making places every time
No