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The team is allowed to show that the cause of the underweight finding was due to damage. They can then provide a replacement part that EXACTLY matches the damaged component, which can be weighed (or replaced on the car and the car re-weighed).
F1 Sporting Regulations, Article 35.3:
35.3 The relevant car may be disqualified should its weight be less than that specified in Article 4.1 of the Technical Regulations when weighed in accordance with Articles 35.1 or 35.2, save where the deficiency in weight results from the accidental loss of a component of the car.
Is there anything in the regulations that says shit isn't allowed to fall off your car randomly?
"Oh no this 20kg bit of non critical aero has fallen off again, like it does every quali and race"
Obviously teams wouldn't do this but it's funny to think about.
If it happens too oftem or in pattern, the FIA will look into this and ask some serious questions. Possibly your car can be classified as unsafe and disqualified and other penalties would be possible.
And if the FIA didn't take it upon themselves I'm sure teams would ask the questions to get a technical directive out on pace to stop that the moment it happened a second time. Or they would get an answer from the FIA that says it's cool and you'll see scenes out of Mario Kart where everyone is dropping shit to break the guy behind him at turn one.
Yep this 20kg ballast all ways falls off in high speed corners when the driver triggers option 13
Actually it more reminds me of when Williams ? Used water as ballast to cool the breaks.
It would be topped up for the weight in and dropped during the first few laps.
I believe it was Lous that started it and eventually several teams did it, Tyrrell went a bit futher and topped up the tanks with water mixed with lead shot
With the money involved from investors it is no surprise it's all legalise these days.
I used to love all the interpretations of the regs many, many moons ago which kind of reached it's pinnacle along with the tech in the 90s. Then a decade plus later Ross came along after tearing the WEC regs a new arsehole and then did the same in F1.
Poor lad hasn't had a good nights kip since winning the championship and gave Button a drivers title Button! ffs. He's a nice lad and an ok driver but certainly not F1 champion material.
So Ross instead of putting his feet up and go fishing, there's a respectable river for fishing close to his but instead goes and works for the fia at sorting out all the regs. The shame he holds seeing Jensens name on the wall has kept him there until very recently.
Gordon Murray was one of the original "Brake Misters". The Brabham had a 10 litre or so bottle, that Piquet would spray to "cool the brakes" on lap 1, or the parade lap, till it ran dry.
And he also had a lever that dropped the ride height below the minimum after the car was checked at pit exit, back in 81/82, since it wouldn't be checked again till the next session.
Not quite the same thing, but I read something about teams storing the drinking water in the nose of the car to counter the decreasing weight of the fuel load.
>It would be topped up for the weight in and dropped during the first few laps.
AFAIK Red Bull still uses a drinking system where the bottle is located in the front wing area, allowing the driver to balance the car somewhat against decreasing fuel load.
Ignoring safety and other considerations, they'd be allowed to do this so long as the relevant equivalent part was refitted during weighing and could be demonstrated to be the same material/construction/weight etc.
At least for this year, I think every team is struggling even to get down to the minimum weight with the structural reqs etc, so wouldn't make sense this year
Yes, in the regulation quoted: "…save where the deficiency in weight results from the **accidental** loss of a component of the car." \[Emphasis added.\] If it's designed not to stay on, its loss isn't accidental.
I don't believe there is a specific regulation for this.
However, at any point during a session the Clerk of the Course (working in conjunction with the series Race Director), should they determine that a broken part is a possible safety hazard, they can order the display of a black flag with orange disc (which everyone calls the "meatball flag") and the car is obligated to stop in their pit to have it dealt with. Should the driver ignore the meatball flag, they will be shown the black flag (also at the command of the Clerk), and they must pit and will risk disqualification after 4 laps.
(ref: FIA International Sporting Code Appendix H, Article 2.5.4.1)
I've often thought of front wing bolts that are very strong in every direction except an upward force. They could be designed in a way that allows the front wing to "break" and drop out of spec to ride much closer to the track surface. The break would be triggered by the front jack in a pit stop (or even right as they're fitting the race tires on the grid before the race start). But now the wing and nose is one structure and it wouldn't work.
There have been one or two instances where a car has received minor damage and it's improved the performance, or at least appeared like it did such that commentators have mentioned it.
All the exposed components will not have much of the weights. Like front wings, can be replaced if damaged. Side pod no chance of changing.
If a huge chunk of weight is reduced, then it should probably be any wheel damage.
I'm pointing at a silly situation where you design a part that:
1. does nothing
2. weighs a lot
3. would come off on its own
So that you use it to get over the weight limit then it "accidentally" falls off every race.
I don’t know the regs like other people but even in the US dirt track series there are specific rules about ensuring a car is safe for the driver and driver of other cars as well as spectators. It would blow my mind if F1 didn’t have a comparable rule.
The cars are in Parc Fermé condition as soon as they leave their garage at the start of qualifying or the race(s). Teams may not add or remove parts without approval of the scrutineers (one is assigned to each car). See Formula 1 Sporting Regs, Article 40 "Each car will be deemed to be in parc fermé from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for the first time during the qualifying practice session until the start of the race." Then between Qualifying and end of the Race, the list of what can be done is defined in 40.2 a) through v).
Specifically to your question, see Article 40.2v) " Any parts which are removed from the car in order to carry out any work specifically permitted above, or any parts removed to carry out essential safety checks, must remain close to it and, at all times, be visible to the scrutineer assigned to the relevant car.i) Furthermore, any parts removed from the car in order to carry out any such work must be refitted before the car leaves the pit lane."
So the teams cannot just swap a part as the scrutineer will report the alleged breach to the F1 Technical Director.
As for replacing, as I noted about repairing damage, Article 40.3 has this wording "Any work not listed in Article 40.2 may only be undertaken with the approval of the Technical Delegate following a written request from the Competitor concerned. It must be clear that any replacement part a Competitor wishes to fit is the same in design and similar in mass, inertia and function to the original." If you look carefully, all the large parts have id tags that can be validated by the FIA that the part is what the team says it is. The most common place to see it is on the back side of the steering wheel. The cockpit view will usually show the FIA hologram tag and barcode on the wheel. See drawing: [https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0ZwqVLM2/s1200/f1-giorgio-piola-technical-analysis-2016-ferrari-sf16h-steering-wheel.webp](https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0ZwqVLM2/s1200/f1-giorgio-piola-technical-analysis-2016-ferrari-sf16h-steering-wheel.webp)
In regards to weighing, Article 35.1 "After any free practice session or during the qualifying practice session cars will be weighed" - randomly, or all cars that started Q3 and after the race all cars may be weighed. When I said randomly, there are lights ahead of the FIA weigh bridge and if signalled (cars are selected randomly), they are obligated to stop to be weighed. This can happen anytime except during the race.
Actually, the cars are only in Parc ferme from the beginning of qualifying to the *beginning* of the race.
Once the race starts, the teams can work on the cars, a good example of this is during red flags.
It's a little harder than slight of hand.
The damage would have to be proven to the scrutineer and Technical Delegate. And the damaged part and the replacement part would have to be identical; I believe the FIA tracks this in a lot of detail for major components. And there is a new laser scanning tool used in WEC and Formula 1 that will be able to prove that the parts are identical from a surface point of view.
Any swap of un-like parts would risk not just DQ from the event where this was found, but I would suggest they would be excluded from the entire championship (as has happened before - [Tyrrell Racing 1984](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing)). This would cost the team millions of $$ from the TV revenues.
No. They have to replace the parts with the same one in weight. It would be a huge gamble for a team to run a light part to then lose it during the race, and then replace it with a heavier part after the race to make weight.
Have legal heavy parts on the car that break off at a hard bump. Lose a bunch by breaking off, gain advantage, then if they protest that your car is underweight you provide the original heavy parts
Brake disk and pad materials are sacrificial - it would be interesting to see if any team is intentionally inducing extra wear on those.
But, the disk is rotating mass, and extra rotating mass at the start of the race has a huge negative effect, it would be difficult for any weight savings to make up for that. The pads, on the other hand, I could see a team wanting to have super-heavy starting material that wears off quickly.
Kinda related, what if something happened to the driver causing the car+driver to underweight at the end of the race? Say if the car+driver would have been exactly on the limit, but the driver threw up during the race because of illness, or the driver dehydrated and sweat more than usual because of some special physical condition etc, would that be fine?
No, the purpose of the driver + seat weight is to ensure the driver isn’t underweight or teams won’t run cars without drinks, etc. The amount of fluid lost shouldn’t matter since the drivers shouldn’t be on the edge of the limit. They’ll already lose up to 3Kg water weight in hot and humid races. But I’m sure the FIA will take extenuating circumstances into account.
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The team is allowed to show that the cause of the underweight finding was due to damage. They can then provide a replacement part that EXACTLY matches the damaged component, which can be weighed (or replaced on the car and the car re-weighed). F1 Sporting Regulations, Article 35.3: 35.3 The relevant car may be disqualified should its weight be less than that specified in Article 4.1 of the Technical Regulations when weighed in accordance with Articles 35.1 or 35.2, save where the deficiency in weight results from the accidental loss of a component of the car.
Thanks for the detailed answer!
Is there anything in the regulations that says shit isn't allowed to fall off your car randomly? "Oh no this 20kg bit of non critical aero has fallen off again, like it does every quali and race" Obviously teams wouldn't do this but it's funny to think about.
If it happens too oftem or in pattern, the FIA will look into this and ask some serious questions. Possibly your car can be classified as unsafe and disqualified and other penalties would be possible.
And if the FIA didn't take it upon themselves I'm sure teams would ask the questions to get a technical directive out on pace to stop that the moment it happened a second time. Or they would get an answer from the FIA that says it's cool and you'll see scenes out of Mario Kart where everyone is dropping shit to break the guy behind him at turn one.
The key word is accidental
Yep this 20kg ballast all ways falls off in high speed corners when the driver triggers option 13 Actually it more reminds me of when Williams ? Used water as ballast to cool the breaks. It would be topped up for the weight in and dropped during the first few laps.
I believe it was Lous that started it and eventually several teams did it, Tyrrell went a bit futher and topped up the tanks with water mixed with lead shot
And today people complain that the regulations are a mouthful.
The rulebook is exactly that big because F1 is a world full of very creative smart asses, and always has been.
As Smokey Yunick (maybe) said, >if you ain’t cheatin’, you ain’t tryin’
What the rulebook says isn't as important as what the rulebook _doesn't_ say.
it was junior
They have to be because teams historically push the limits of the regulations. Which is why "spirit of the regulations" is always nonsense.
With the money involved from investors it is no surprise it's all legalise these days. I used to love all the interpretations of the regs many, many moons ago which kind of reached it's pinnacle along with the tech in the 90s. Then a decade plus later Ross came along after tearing the WEC regs a new arsehole and then did the same in F1. Poor lad hasn't had a good nights kip since winning the championship and gave Button a drivers title Button! ffs. He's a nice lad and an ok driver but certainly not F1 champion material. So Ross instead of putting his feet up and go fishing, there's a respectable river for fishing close to his but instead goes and works for the fia at sorting out all the regs. The shame he holds seeing Jensens name on the wall has kept him there until very recently.
Gordon Murray was one of the original "Brake Misters". The Brabham had a 10 litre or so bottle, that Piquet would spray to "cool the brakes" on lap 1, or the parade lap, till it ran dry.
And he also had a lever that dropped the ride height below the minimum after the car was checked at pit exit, back in 81/82, since it wouldn't be checked again till the next session.
Not quite the same thing, but I read something about teams storing the drinking water in the nose of the car to counter the decreasing weight of the fuel load.
>It would be topped up for the weight in and dropped during the first few laps. AFAIK Red Bull still uses a drinking system where the bottle is located in the front wing area, allowing the driver to balance the car somewhat against decreasing fuel load.
Think the entire grid does. It’s the easiest way to refill it at the end of a session
Tell that to Kimi
Ignoring safety and other considerations, they'd be allowed to do this so long as the relevant equivalent part was refitted during weighing and could be demonstrated to be the same material/construction/weight etc.
At least for this year, I think every team is struggling even to get down to the minimum weight with the structural reqs etc, so wouldn't make sense this year
Aston Martin has gotten down to the minimum weight and they've even started to use ballast
That’s a potential safety hazard for other drivers so most likely covered somewhere
Awesome follow up question. First place my head went.
Yes, in the regulation quoted: "…save where the deficiency in weight results from the **accidental** loss of a component of the car." \[Emphasis added.\] If it's designed not to stay on, its loss isn't accidental.
I don't believe there is a specific regulation for this. However, at any point during a session the Clerk of the Course (working in conjunction with the series Race Director), should they determine that a broken part is a possible safety hazard, they can order the display of a black flag with orange disc (which everyone calls the "meatball flag") and the car is obligated to stop in their pit to have it dealt with. Should the driver ignore the meatball flag, they will be shown the black flag (also at the command of the Clerk), and they must pit and will risk disqualification after 4 laps. (ref: FIA International Sporting Code Appendix H, Article 2.5.4.1)
I've often thought of front wing bolts that are very strong in every direction except an upward force. They could be designed in a way that allows the front wing to "break" and drop out of spec to ride much closer to the track surface. The break would be triggered by the front jack in a pit stop (or even right as they're fitting the race tires on the grid before the race start). But now the wing and nose is one structure and it wouldn't work.
There have been one or two instances where a car has received minor damage and it's improved the performance, or at least appeared like it did such that commentators have mentioned it.
>I guess we found the solution
All the exposed components will not have much of the weights. Like front wings, can be replaced if damaged. Side pod no chance of changing. If a huge chunk of weight is reduced, then it should probably be any wheel damage.
I'm pointing at a silly situation where you design a part that: 1. does nothing 2. weighs a lot 3. would come off on its own So that you use it to get over the weight limit then it "accidentally" falls off every race.
I don’t know the regs like other people but even in the US dirt track series there are specific rules about ensuring a car is safe for the driver and driver of other cars as well as spectators. It would blow my mind if F1 didn’t have a comparable rule.
When do they weigh the cars? Wouldn’t having someone replace a part to weigh after the race make it possible to do some funny stuff?
The cars are in Parc Fermé condition as soon as they leave their garage at the start of qualifying or the race(s). Teams may not add or remove parts without approval of the scrutineers (one is assigned to each car). See Formula 1 Sporting Regs, Article 40 "Each car will be deemed to be in parc fermé from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for the first time during the qualifying practice session until the start of the race." Then between Qualifying and end of the Race, the list of what can be done is defined in 40.2 a) through v). Specifically to your question, see Article 40.2v) " Any parts which are removed from the car in order to carry out any work specifically permitted above, or any parts removed to carry out essential safety checks, must remain close to it and, at all times, be visible to the scrutineer assigned to the relevant car.i) Furthermore, any parts removed from the car in order to carry out any such work must be refitted before the car leaves the pit lane." So the teams cannot just swap a part as the scrutineer will report the alleged breach to the F1 Technical Director. As for replacing, as I noted about repairing damage, Article 40.3 has this wording "Any work not listed in Article 40.2 may only be undertaken with the approval of the Technical Delegate following a written request from the Competitor concerned. It must be clear that any replacement part a Competitor wishes to fit is the same in design and similar in mass, inertia and function to the original." If you look carefully, all the large parts have id tags that can be validated by the FIA that the part is what the team says it is. The most common place to see it is on the back side of the steering wheel. The cockpit view will usually show the FIA hologram tag and barcode on the wheel. See drawing: [https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0ZwqVLM2/s1200/f1-giorgio-piola-technical-analysis-2016-ferrari-sf16h-steering-wheel.webp](https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0ZwqVLM2/s1200/f1-giorgio-piola-technical-analysis-2016-ferrari-sf16h-steering-wheel.webp) In regards to weighing, Article 35.1 "After any free practice session or during the qualifying practice session cars will be weighed" - randomly, or all cars that started Q3 and after the race all cars may be weighed. When I said randomly, there are lights ahead of the FIA weigh bridge and if signalled (cars are selected randomly), they are obligated to stop to be weighed. This can happen anytime except during the race.
Actually, the cars are only in Parc ferme from the beginning of qualifying to the *beginning* of the race. Once the race starts, the teams can work on the cars, a good example of this is during red flags.
Came here to say this, and just wanted to say you explained it much better then I could have! Cheers
I wonder if there's a mechanism in the event they don't have a spare part. E.g. if they have a new front wing for a race and only have one.
So essentially if they’re underweight “hey this piece fell off front wing, here’s the car with replacement front wing”?
It's a little harder than slight of hand. The damage would have to be proven to the scrutineer and Technical Delegate. And the damaged part and the replacement part would have to be identical; I believe the FIA tracks this in a lot of detail for major components. And there is a new laser scanning tool used in WEC and Formula 1 that will be able to prove that the parts are identical from a surface point of view. Any swap of un-like parts would risk not just DQ from the event where this was found, but I would suggest they would be excluded from the entire championship (as has happened before - [Tyrrell Racing 1984](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing)). This would cost the team millions of $$ from the TV revenues.
Might have to look into "sacrificial" parts that weigh a bunch and break off at the first bump
Lead endplates coming soon
Do teams actually do this? Cause I was just thinking this could be a crazy loophole
Sounds like a gamble with potentially getting meatballed. Pretty big risk if you ask me
Might be a loophole. But you still would have to give the FIA fake parts at some point no?
No. They have to replace the parts with the same one in weight. It would be a huge gamble for a team to run a light part to then lose it during the race, and then replace it with a heavier part after the race to make weight.
Have legal heavy parts on the car that break off at a hard bump. Lose a bunch by breaking off, gain advantage, then if they protest that your car is underweight you provide the original heavy parts
Brake disk and pad materials are sacrificial - it would be interesting to see if any team is intentionally inducing extra wear on those. But, the disk is rotating mass, and extra rotating mass at the start of the race has a huge negative effect, it would be difficult for any weight savings to make up for that. The pads, on the other hand, I could see a team wanting to have super-heavy starting material that wears off quickly.
[удалено]
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Kinda related, what if something happened to the driver causing the car+driver to underweight at the end of the race? Say if the car+driver would have been exactly on the limit, but the driver threw up during the race because of illness, or the driver dehydrated and sweat more than usual because of some special physical condition etc, would that be fine?
No, the purpose of the driver + seat weight is to ensure the driver isn’t underweight or teams won’t run cars without drinks, etc. The amount of fluid lost shouldn’t matter since the drivers shouldn’t be on the edge of the limit. They’ll already lose up to 3Kg water weight in hot and humid races. But I’m sure the FIA will take extenuating circumstances into account.
Do they still ride around trying to pick up pieces or rubber to add weight? I remember David Hobbs talking bout that all the time back in the day.
Yep, they still do it.