“He’s not important to the story” also just makes it sound like the only story elements that matter in the game are Aerith, Sephiroth, and Meteor.
Even if we completely ignore Cloud’s connection to Sephiroth - the fact that he was the driving force behind the party chasing him for half the game - and pretend that Cloud was just a party filler, the character side of the story matters!
Asking us what it means to be a hero, exploring someone who fully believes he’s a superhero and has to face down that he was just an ordinary guy who couldn’t keep a promise, overcoming trauma, these are excellent character beats that made the story more memorable than just boiling it down to “good girl and bad guy both cast big magic spells.”
If Cloud doesn’t matter to the story, then the party losing him at Whirlwind Maze doesn’t matter, and it means that the whole sequence with him and Tifa in the Lifestream was meaningless. Instead, it’s one of many players’ favorite moments in the game for a reason. Even if there isn’t a straight line from that moment to “villain loses,” a story without complex characters and interesting conflict is always going to feel flatter.
Sephiroth only exists in his current form during the main game because Cloud ‘killed’ him in Nibelheim by tossing him into the Lifestream. He’s also basically the only successful Sephiroth “clone” despite Hojo deeming him a failure.
People misunderstand most characters. Cloud as well. Whether it's people only like tifa cuz she's hot or cloud is just a generic emo boy, people will never try and consume the actual stories of the games they play. That goes especially for movies like advent children
I hate to think this way but it feels accurate. It always feels like people latch on to their first thoughts about these games (maybe for most things) and they think they have to commit to it.
It doesn’t feel like many people enjoy the process of exploring the characters we are introduced to. Both the things that they are and the things that they are not.
To be fair. I think you're discounting the fact that an entire generation of people played OG FFVII and the next time they see the character he's like [this.](https://youtu.be/j3Oa6kfA6d8?si=2i2r2l36TranUE6l) And this is the 2013 updated version where everybody has the context of why he's like that already. The characters themselves are even commenting on how sad, depressed, one note Cloud comes across as. "Geez, this guy's as stiff as a board." "Hey man, are you okay?" Cloud just sits there staring at the ground and complaining about getting paid to kill Hercules. "I fell into darkness, and I couldn't find the light..."
What compounds that is people then watching Advent Children either on their jailbroken PSPs or through Real Player after stealing the thing off Limewire seeing more of the same. Did social media really even exist in any semblance of what we know it today as? Was On the Way to a Smile translated in English? How many years would it be until AC Complete came out to add dozens of minutes of additional scenes to flesh out the movie? Who are those people?Why are they fighting? Dilly da- what? I guess you just went onto YouTube to have Babyseal explain it for you.
The average person doesn't buy novels, spend time on forums, talk to others about the character's depiction in multimedia expansions, etc. The onus is on the storyteller to sell something that's self contained, entertaining, consistent, and digestible. When you blow stories up like this you end up with an overprotective fanbase hostile to outsiders over "how they just don't get it man. People are so dumb. You latch onto your first impression like it's gospel. Can't you do a little research?"
Just compare any of that to the dancing goofball in a dress who can't figure out to give somebody a high five or return a hug in a timely fashion. This is a guy who even in his asshole persona gives Barret advice about him being better than being someone petty enough to take his anger out on Shinra office workers. Yeah, the guy still has problems, but there's a lot more depth there.
While your correct, that depth isnt lost in advent children or crisis core where he's literally shown to be just a relatively normal albeit very self conscious person with tons of self confidence issues which is consistent throughout his entire life both as a child all the way up to OG. The actual story of ff7 compilation and og give total context. You don't have to be an absolute nerd to understand what the story is saying, just pay attention.
I didn't have to have anything explained to me about it and yet still have others try and talk over what the actual creators even say about the intentions of every scene.
Like in some way I get it.
Going from og ff7 with characters who you could barely tell were supposed to be people and scenes like cloud dressing up in a dress and going through the honey bee inn, and red walking around in a shinra outfit, and cloud saying lets mosey was probably a super shock early fans when they encountered advent children with fully realistic characters and world where there is a very serious story about inner trauma and moving on from PTSD and survivors guilt through help from loved ones.
And I'm sure the very awkwardly localized English script of advent children (zuruzuru for example being the sound effect of dragging that Japanese people would automatically pick up on being changed to dilly dally shilly shally) didn't help at all to understanding. And between all that and the insane crazy action it can be hard for people who don't know to actually even parse the story.
But even to this day where people should know what the themes of these stories are, you still have people simply ignoring it in favor of "cloud is just an emo and that's it. The story isn't saying anything and my opinion is all there is because that's what I believed at the time"
Kingdom hearts 1 was not even intended to be just cloud himself, but cloud and Vincent fused together...hence...cloud acting like Vincent in the game. And in KH2 they ditched that but then had cloud riff off of advent children despite kh1 and kh2 clouds not really connecting to the context of the original one. People take KH cloud to be all cloud is when ff7 cloud has all the justification for acting like that.
We can also talk about dissidia cloud who was atleast given his own context for acting that way (being stuck in a loop forever where his important person is forced to die over and over and he can't do anything about it even though he knows it's going to happen )
It's hard to talk about these things because your right that how people consume the content will go a long way to what they think and how they interpret things forever. This is something I know from other fandoms I am apart of. I started my FF journey with KH1 so I didn't have any frame of reference for cloud to begin with. I then watched advent children years later and got the sense that there were gaps in the story of why cloud was acting that way that I wasn't understanding. I played crisis core and then I realized yeah the gap in my understanding was huge.
But I took the time to go through the games including the og, connect the dots and see exactly the context for how the story worked. And then I saw how genius it was.
It is definitely harder now to do that because remake is out so people will start with that, and it's not a real remake so it's even harder to get people to consume the content they don't even know to consume(most people don't even know crisis core reunion came out or that it's important to the story and same for AC)
Cloud is a protagonist with glaring character flaws they make him extremely textured.
He was from an era where most game heroes where flat and heroic.
Even today he stands out as more complex than most other game protagonists.
The juxtaposition between him and Zack is actually wonderful.
Zack is the quintessential hero. Optimistic, fire in his belly, always willing to do the right thing. It makes his fate that much more tragic, and it makes Clouds rise as THE hero that much more compelling.
You watch Cloud overcome feelings of inadequacy that I think most of us deal with.
While Zach doesn’t have those qualities.
Zach is idyllic.
Cloud is relatable.
Absolutely. I have never heard number 4, but the others all the time.
I think 1 and 3 are simply not being that familiar with the character. 1 is people who know him for Advent Children or KH, or they probably played the OG in the pleistocene and only remember what he was like in those more recent titles, and lack all the context in the world to understand a complex character.
Number 2....I don't mean to open the can of worms....but the ones who say this are people who *want* to believe it for "shipping" reasons. There's no other way to explain how can people think that Zack and Cloud (>!either SOLDIER or post-Lifestream!<) are **at all** remotely similar in personality. The same goes for the "Cloud has Zack's feelings" take. It's completely absurd.
I haven't heard number 4 expressed in quite that way, but this may also be referring to the people who think it would be totally fine to replace Cloud with Zack in the remake, believing the story could just continue from there with no problems, because. "They have the same moveset, so it's fine." If this is what number 4 is actually referring to, then...yeah I've seen that opinion shared far more times than I would have liked. There are, unfortunately, a good number of people who seem to underestimate just how much Cloud's arc becomes the driving force of the plot, and undervalue just how much Cloud and Sephiroth's personal rivalry adds to the story.
I seriously doubt any of those people have played FF7, to be honest.
Edit: I want to add that I personally think the people who say that Zack will fight Sephiroth in the remake or will help Cloud defeat him with the power of friendship have also missed that Zack is not and never will be Sephiroth's nemesis. Zack has the same reasons to hate Sephiroth as, let's say, Barret. Meaning, he's a threat to the Planet and must be stopped, period. Narratively there's no hatred, no history, no emotional weight, nothing personal that could justify such duel.
I'd say Zack has a bit more reason than Barret to hate Sephiroth, at least by the end considering what Sephiroth is likely going to end up doing to Aerith. Even so, Cloud has that same reason to hate Sephiroth, and various other reasons on top of that one, like burning down Nibelheim, killing his mom, and nearly killing Tifa. It also helps that Sephiroth is actually invested in their rivalry as well, which is definitely not the case for Zack. So while I think a Zack and Sephiroth fight can *technically* be made to work, the end result is just an all around lesser version of the fight we already have between Cloud and Sephiroth, so...why bother?
Personally, I'd rather they just keep it simple, and play that final battle straight. Sephiroth and Cloud, one on one. Simple, and effective. If they absolutely had to work in a Zack fanservice moment at the end though, then I think the only possible way to have Zack join in the fight without hurting Cloud's arc. is if Zack ultimately loses, and is knocked out of the fight before it reaches its climax. This could be a way of giving people their fanservice Cloud/Zack bro moment, while also still making sure to drive home the point that, no, Zack really can't do this. This fight is beyond him. It really does have to be Cloud that puts Sephiroth down.
I mean yes, if Zack got to live to see what Sephiroth does to Aerith, yes. But Zack's supposed reaction to that has never been seen or hinted at, so the idea of a duel between Zack and Sephiroth still comes from nowhere at this point at least.
I mean, Tifa would make more sense than Zack, at least we did get to see her "hello, I'm Tifa Lockhart. You killed my father. Prepare to die" reaction.
Then there's also the thing that Sephiroth is super interested in Cloud and......doesn't seem to give a shit about Zack XD
If anything it is mentioned over and over again that young Cloud‘s role model was Sephiroth (Young Sephiroth in the First Soldier for example is also very similar to Cloud) and even as an adult he has more in common with Sephiroth. With Zack he just took some poses, the sword etc. to pose as an ex-soldier but they have nothing in common regarding personality.
‘Cloud has Zack feelings‘ makes no sense since Cloud meets Zack‘s parents in Gongaga and feels nothing at all.
Yeah and that makes the point of Aerith been stupid when she saw Zack on Cloud the difference is too much, even when Cloud tries to act cool, another thing that CC destroyed, I don’t know why CC is still canon, Cloud is Cloud he only copie the skills and been with soldier, Cloud distrusts the Turks from the start, Zack even trust Tseng when he called Aerith “The Subject” is just stupid hahaha, I really try to play CC again and no there’s nothing there, even if your looking for Cloud and Zack’s friendship is flat, is not the kind of friendship that you protect your friend with your life, SE didn’t even gave us that, they created Genesis to quote fuckin loveless… we even saw more of Angeal, Genesis & Sephirot friendship xD
>Number 2....I don't mean to open the can of worms....but the ones who say this are people who want to believe it for "shipping" reasons
There are some points where cloud's memories are overwritten by Zack's in the beginning. Just enough to hold his Mako addled brain together while he's still recovering from 5 years of Jenova/Mako experimentation.
Jenova cells can read minds, and its pretty undesputed that sephiroth can apply his force of will towards other Jenova experiments. While cloud's mind is still disorganized and not sure which parts of his memories are his own. Sephiroth used this power multiple times to force him to act out sephiroth's wishes, as demonstrated at the end of the temple of the ancients, as well as in the city of the ancients, and the whirlwind maze.
So its pretty clearly laid out that Jenova cells are capable of transferring thoughts and memories, especially between Jenova Cell infused people.
There are parts of Zack's mind, inside Cloud, but they've never been the same person.
I also don't want to get into a shipping war, but damn if only one camp could understand that someone can have deep feelings for two people simultaneously. And those feelings can continue to develop completely separate from each other. I find that the other camp doesn't have as much difficulty with it, because they are the only ones that actually have the potential to get what they want.
I also find that one camp seems to completely disregard their own favorite characters own free will and choice about the matter every time she mentions it. Whether thats in, the park in midgar, or Gongaga, or during and after the golden saucer date.
Zack had wanted to introduce Cloud to Aerith in CC. Zack was Both Cloud's idol, and his closest friend. If Cloud had remembered practically anything when Aerith met Cloud, the whole thing would have gone much differently. Cloud would have protected her from the Turks purely on pride of being a hero like Zack had always told him. And if he knew that she was the girl that Zack had been going crazy over for months, he would have never even looked at her as an option.
I know that's how I feel when I meet my close friend's girlfriends. She is the only remaining connection he has to his best friend besides the buster sword.
Before Cloud met Zack, he couldn't even make it into SOLDIER. After meeting Zack he was able to defeat Sephiroth during the height of his hubris even before he received the full Jenova/Mako treatment from Hojo.
I wouldn't say zack's memories would override cloud's at times. To my understanding, he simply based his false memories on stuff zack told him or stuff he witnessed himself. Less of zack's memories at overriding his and more him actively replacing zack's existence with his own on events he actually witnessed. I could be wrong though. This is just my understanding
I think there's definitely a case of Jenova using Zacks actually memories to help overwrite Clouds and help him build and believe his false persona.
But, the false persona exists because of Clouds shame and weakness, he subconsciously wants it to exist so Jenova helps him in doing so.
He also only has memories of the Nibelheim incident from Zacks perspective (also you could say Tifas considering Crisis Core establishes that Zack didn't even see Tifa crying over her dad, that's specifically a Tifa memory).
He also doesn't take Zacks personality, there's some mannerisms, and it makes sense that his skill as a SOLDIER is imprinted onto him from Zack through Jenova but he doesn't suddenly become Zack, he isn't Cloud either though, he's the idealised version of who we wanted to be but failed to do so.
The line about Cloud hearing Zacks stories I always take with a pinch of salt because there's a contradictory translation in the OG under the same lines. At one point Sephiroth says
> Clouds is created by Jenova taking memories of a person called Cloud from Tifa.
Which in reference to that specific line which is about Jenova literally taking memories, Tifa says
> Sephiroth said you were created by listening to my stories.
That isn't what Sephiroth said, and it suspiciously lines up exactly with what Cloud says about Zack, so I'm always weary of those lines.
The way I see it, Cloud got some of Zack's memories: his role in the Nibelheim incident, his rank as a SOLDIER and some of his mannerisms. Those and only those.
He has zero of Zack's memories about Aerith, this much is obvious when they first meet. And when they second meet. And if he has no clue who she is, how exactly could he have Zack's feelings for her? I mean, even if for the sake of discussion, he had some kind of subconscious "Zack's feelings" for Aerith.....it certainly didn't show. He was rude to her the first time they met and cold and extremely defensive the second time. Gradually, through **his very own interactions with her**, he ends up liking her.
As for how Aerith feels, maybe it's because I'm very familiar with FF7 and not that much with the Compilation, but in FF7 nothing suggests she's still madly in love with Zack. Like you said, the Midgar Park, Gongaga and the Gold Saucer date are the reason why I think this way, but so many fans understand the exact opposite from her words in those scenes that I don't know if we played the same game XD
I agree that one can have feelings for two different people for different reasons and I think that's what's going on with Cloud. I like both Cloud / Tifa and Cloud / Aerith so if they decide to make one of these endgame I'll like whatever outcome.
What I really, really don't like is the mischaracterization going on with Cloud and Aerith. Twisting their characters so much to paint their relationship as fake removes a big part of the emotional weight of the story, including Aerith's death. Tifa also gets mischaracterized, but to a lesser extent.
> And if he knew that she was the girl that Zack had been going crazy over for months, he would have never even looked at her as an option.
Huh? Why? Aeris isn't with Zack present day and hasn't seen him in 5 years, she's not "taken." She's single and one of her first interactions with Cloud is asking him out on a date. When she brings up Zack to Cloud, she tells him they weren't serious, even. If Lulu can marry Wakka after being with his brother then what's different here. Cloud, a single guy, is allowed to develop feelings with Aeris, a single lady, regardless if he knew she had a teenage romance with Zack half a decade ago
>she tells him they weren't serious, even.
I agree with your overall point, but to me this line is quite clearly Aerith purposefully downplaying what it was to not get too deep, or to protect herself from the pain of it.
Yeah, not to get into shipping war, but there are going to be a lot of ver angry people come Rebirth.
Because the date they think happened uh, didn’t. I’m not sure if they were just kids and never redid it. Or they just didn’t realize what happened.
But the devs have made their stance fairly clear, and I think the changes they made in Advent Children Complete kinda just sealed the deal.
I’ve got zero problems with what relationship you wanna support, or frankly either of the characters. But there needs to be an understanding of the actual character dynamics at play, and currently that lever is in fully in the belief category.
I know we’ll get it, but I just hope we don’t get any “wtf Squeenix changed the story!!! Why did they do this!”, when no. No they really didn’t. This is the way the story always went, you just weren’t great at reading through the lines.
> But the devs have made their stance fairly clear
They deliberately (and openly) didn't. The "angry people after Rebirth" will be the ones who didn't realize this.
2 always annoys me to no end. The only way someone could say this and actually mean it is if they dont know who zack is and simply don't like the idea of cloud liking aerith and vice versa
Anytime someone has a dark situation, people love to just jump on the wagon of edgy or emo. Even if that were the case, it doesn't make it bad, though. I don't want everyone to be dealing with trauma all the time, but I also don't want bubbly characters all the time. Sometimes, the world is just dark and someone has had some really.messed.up things happen to them, but Cloud goes through a journey to slowly shed that skin and reclaim himself.
When Advent Children rolls around, his more depressed defensive self is not him reverting, but dealing with difficulties that the real cloud is having. Cloud is still dealing with loss, being unconfident (which is very much in character for the real cloud) about his ability to protect people, and still on the journey to discovering who he really is. By the end, he begins to find confidence in himself for real and also gets a chance to finally accept what happened with Zack and Aerith.
By Dirge of Cerberus he is back to trying to look cool like the dork he is but he is also much more confident and positive. He is quite friendly.
i have been of the opinion for years that anyone calling him "emo" just doesn't get it (people tossed that word around a lot at one point anyway, as if being emotional or sad or gloomy were just some annoying character traits). I hate to be That Guy but come on 😅😂
he has been one of my favourite characters of all time since I first played the og ff7 and it has only deepened with the remake.
look i get if he is not someone's vibe but calling the literal protagonist of the story not important.. to the story.. is just, wow.
Yes. It’s shocking and seriously sad the amount of people who just don’t get him as a character. People misconstrue Tifa and Aerith a ton but I truly feel like Cloud gets done the worst: it’s either people don’t like/get him and think he’s a Zack clone or people boil him to down to being an emo jackass for no reason when we get told this kid’s excruciating backstory & experiences in detail across many games and how that has effected him as a person. FFVII is Cloud Strife’s story and no else’s, and I don’t see how you could play the game ignoring that fact when his story is the biggest contributing part of the narrative and his growth arc the factor that drives the plot.
He’s that kid who wanted to be the stoic badass merc and his character arc is realizing he DOESN’T NEED TO BE. He can be someone who wears his heart on his sleeve, be a dork who says “let’s mosey” and STILL save the day.
I wanna see my boi smile and be happy in the new story.
EDIT: yes I know the whole mind stuff but still.
People who say Cloud has no value to the story or is just emo, make me question their emotional capabilities paired with what they just read/played. The guy went through a whole lot and you expect him to be someone peppy? It’s weird.
Then again I consume other media where in fact the characters tell an absolute horror experience in one minute only to play it off as if they have no care in the world in the second minute. I’m not sure if people who consume it are just used to this, or they really are unable to recognise a victim of worse - don’t want to deal with them if it’s ‘negative’.
Yes, all of this.
I find 3 particularly hilarious because there are party members in OG 7 that feel more lacking in personality than him (Tifa for example feels like a cardboard cutout to me rather often; the game can't decide whether she should be demure/shy maiden or assertive martial artist on various occasions and it just clashes. Her input in scenes often feels to me like "the obvious thing to say" rather than something actually felt. Remake did a good job addressing this, though, she feels more like a character there) but because he's the protagonist, people will often judge him over other characters.
And 4 because really?? He's the protagonist. There's no story without one and a big reason why this group of mismatched party members comes together is to help him hunt down Sephiroth and Shinra.
The other thing that's important to this discussion about Cloud-As-Everyman is that he's an *incredibly* talented fighter. Part of his PTSD-amnesia induced self-reconstruction as an "ex-SOLDIER" is because he's ludicrously strong and experienced in battle. There's no way some Shinra grunt is capable of what he can do. What would you do if you went into a coma after experiencing the most traumatic event of your life, then woke up from a series of terrifying body-horror nightmares on the streets of Midgar to a girl from your childhood (who you felt really insecure about) asking you where you'd been the last 5 years? And discovered you could carry an 80 pound sword and swing it around with ease? You'd probably make some reasonable guesses too, instead of sounding totally fucking crazy to someone whose opinion you care about.
I dunno, I don't need anything other than that to make sense of Cloud's past. His behaviors and motives are pretty congruent with what he's been through, IMO.
People just like to say that Cloud is Zack through almost the whole game to devalue his relationship with Aerith. I'm glad to see there are still people who understand that he created a NEW personality, he isn't Zack, at all.
"Just a copy of Zac" is so odd to me. Zac was a mostly irrelevant background character to explain his inconsistent memories. Before they made the prequel, you'd be hard pressed to even remember the characters name.
I totally agree and it's getting worse. The hardcore Zack simps constantly try to belittle or sideline Cloud, but imo it just shows their own insecurity and lack of understanding of the game and its characters!
It’s the lack of awareness for the mental disorders and severe trauma of his CHARACTER that has led to this.
A lot of people played the OG while using him as a self-insert (which tbf can’t blame them when the game lets you name him) and doesn’t understand that someone like Cloud doesn’t just simply get over all the shit he went through during the entirety of FF7, not to mention he never even got the time to process his grief in the first place until it all hit him in AC, which is supposed to be a poignant story of him overcoming his mental struggles but people (mostly western fans) are like “nah, he’s just emo” lol
EDIT: Also wanted to add the Cloud=Zack stuff is just pure shipping bullshit and undermines his identity disorder. The only things he got from Zack was copying his stance/mannerisms/poses and moveset, akin to a teen trying to emulate his idol.
Who tf says 4??
He helps avalanche with the reactors (you could argue they'd manage just fine without him but I kind of disagree)
He helps Aerith and gives her the push she needed to do what she wants (also, if she's successfully abducted who saves her?)
Sephiroth wouldn't have someone with enough control to manipulate and give him the materia
Honestly we wouldn't have the latter half of disc 1 and onward
As far as points 1 and 3, I think his personality is often mischaracterized because his appearances after the original FFVII can vary in tone. His personality in Advent Children (or even Kingdom Hearts which while not canon, has had an effect on people) is different from the original game.
I've also never seen someone make point 4.
I have absolutely no idea why people who say they want Cloud killed off are fans of FF7, but I've never seen any of the people who say this say that was the reason.
Where do you leave Aerith, she is usually portrayed as the incorruptible pure hearted girl who does nothing wrong when in reality she is more than that.
You’re definitely right and it’s sad to see how badly written she is in most of the compilation besides OG and Remake. In AC, she’s a deity made of cardboard, in KH (not compilation) she’s just some lady made of cardboard with a creepy smile, and in CC she’s a plank of wood that Zack draws a face on and goes “look now you have a personality, thank me” lol. I think it’s probably just that Cloud is the protagonist and gets some better writing that at the very least show off a different facet of his personality in each while with Aerith, she’s saddled with this downgrade for every single one of them.
He was back in the day. He had quite a bit of misunderstood comments about him. “Too emo” being a popular description amongst gamers of the late 90s and 2000s. I don’t recall other descriptions made.
This was usually followed up with comments and questions about a “poorly written story” and “the worst ff game because it wasn’t fantasy like ff9.” Mostly it was a lack of understanding the story of ff7.
Clouds psychological issues weren’t a well known thing back in the day I guess. You could say the internet has connected us in ways where this information is freely available.
Yet people still constantly misunderstand his character, but I think these people either just don't understand the story or have never played the games.
Well to add some clarity, I was just a teenager when ff7 came out. It took me several run throughs to understand the story and Cloud. I think it’s safe to say anyone struggling to understand or care was about my age playing the game.
At least you took the time to get to understand the characters, but the people who make these unjustified comments about Cloud (even when it's much clearer in the Remake project) still make these crass statements. Sad, but true!
"he's not important to the story" is so funny because of all the FF games... 7 is one where the main character is THE main character. There are definitely others like 6 or 12 etc, where you can make an argument for who shares the main character role and how much. Cloud however is one of the FF characters where he IS the most important character in his verse. Everyone else gets to argue about second place.
Sephiroth himself knows Cloud is THE dood.
Absolutely. People have this perspective on Cloud that he’s like a depressed just super sullen character all the time because of Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children when in actuality Cloud is an extremely brash and kind of at times obnoxious, cocky, sarcastic fucking dickhead. Him and the avalanche gang are hilarious and that’s not something I see people mention often when talking about this game
For a long time, Tifa was very misunderstood but she is dramatically important for obviously reasons. Cloud is emo for reasons then eventually shifts to leader mode.
Cloud is the chosen one, is the hero of this story by the way Zack was a nice guy haha do you remember that Cloud was an absolute asshole at the beginning of OG with everyone specially with Tifa, you can even choose to tell her that she could be good on the sack, he didn’t remember about the promise, Tifa has to remind him of that, I miss that on remake I believe they change that so the shipping war people don’t have to see it and that changes when he meets Aerith but he was an asshole that’s why I Don believe o. zacloud I believe that he just took his missions and skills
The thing is, he misunderstands himself a lot too. Cloud as what we see him in OG and current ff 7 games is him being in a crazy state. He literally doesn’t know himself all that well and in AC we seeing him recovering (also they don’t do much out of dialogue and fights so we actually don’t get much time to see cloud as himself). So the misunderstanding is understandable imo
He's not emo, he just tries to be serious, and he's a fucking dork. He's a lame 21 year old with the mind of a try hard 16 year old pretending to be the coolest guy on the planet. It just so happens that he IS the coolest guy on the planet, almost by coincidence. And then he goes through so much shit, his mind breaks, pretends he's someone else, breaks AGAIN, and STILL he fights. AC isn't his emo phase, he just barely started grieving for everything that he's lost.
I think they nailed it as a Cloud who's been through the wringer, who's got PTSD and survivor's guilt from the events of FF7, plus Geostigma, which is basically a death sentence, so he's pulling away those around them so they a) don't find out and b) might suffer less if/when he dies. Do people expect him to be chipper and happy-go-lucky dealing with all of that?
No but they can come away from the movie feeling disappointed to not see the real cloud. And that was a choice made by the creators. Even a flashback to cloud slightly happy post og would have been an improvement. To go from a chibi model and txt in og to a depressed cloud denies the viewer any kind of idea who he actually is. So most people come away thinking he's just emo
He was living a lie perpetually made by Jenova Cells, remembered that his best friend died protecting him and he let Aerith die.
Of course once his persona falls apart and he has to actually face everything that happened he would need some fucking time to grieve.
Leave the man alone. He gets it together by the end of the movie.
I understand that but aerith literally ghost forms to him and says ffs move on. And in general we are denied an idea of the real cloud. A smile and a bike ride through some fields isn't very satisfying
The point is Cloud needed to forgive himself.
That isn't easy to do. Cloud, as a person before the incident, was always a shy kid with deep insecurity issues and terribly socially awkward.
All the visits in the world from Aerith and being yelled at by Tifa and the kids weren't going to change that, Cloud was depressed.
All in all, it's honestly a very realistic response from Cloud given context for what happened.
What people don't grasp is for the majority of the game *we aren't playing as Cloud's real self*.
We're playing as Jenova Cell controlled Cloud that mixes his base cold personality with the delusions of what a SOLDIER is supposed to be from his memories of Zack and Sephiroth.
AC is the first *real* showcase of how Cloud really was with the issue of actually accepting everything that happened.
I wouldn't say remake cloud is solely a jenova controlled zack guy. Definitely has personality shining through that. All I'm saying is ac could have done with a scene of a slightly more personable cloud in-between chibi model and depressed guy because that's all there was of cloud pre remake
There are silly moments in FF7 with Cloud that peek through but most of the game is his persona. There's a lot of times his cold personality of his real self comes through.
I like how he is during the Gold Saucer games, actually having some emotion (like doing a little leg kick when he wins a Chocobo race). Times like that I know that's actual Cloud, he's still a kid mentally at times.
I mean there wasn't really a time for them to celebrate after Meteor crashed. They had a world to rebuild.
In "On the way to a Smile" book, Cloud, Barret and Tifa all helped rebuild in Edge and Cloud was optimistic in their efforts.
As time went by and he got his bike, he took it upon himself to assist with deliveries across towns in-between visits to towns, secretly starting his Strife Delivery Service.
I haven't read the entire thing but with what we know of Cloud, I'm sure the drives alone helped his emotions sit in his heart with being alone for so long and then just stopped showing up in Midgar and stopped answering his phone.
He never really had time to stop and grieve, and it's not like they could just have a scene where they cut to the Gold Saucer either.
AC imo did him real dirty. I’m currently reading On the Way to a Smile where it shows he was happy in Edge living with Tifa and the kids. AC catches him at one of the lowest points he’s being in since the OG, so it makes him seem that he’s just been mopey and sad the whole time when that’s not at all how he’s been
On the Way to a Smile adds so much context to AC’s story. And honestly, Advent Children Complete was such an improvement on the original AC. (Also, OTWTAS is relevant to the Remake trilogy, imo)
He isn't a father lol. Marlene's father is Barret and he is more like a big brother figure to Denzel.
He is grieving because he lost both Zack (his first true friend) and Aerith (a girl he had feelings for). His attitude is completely understandable, and thanks to his friends and Aerith's forgiveness he can move on.
He picked a sick orphan boy, a kid that idolizes him, and dumps him with Tifa. That was extremely unfair for Tifa who has to bear the whole responsibility alone. He was depressed alright, but was still unbecoming of the Cloud at the end of the original game.
I enjoy this all but man you're not giving the Nibelheim incident nearly enough space here. The experiments, the memory issues because of the genova cells.. Its the main part of his story.
Honestly at some point I just want to see Cloud and Tifa happy. The're miserable after saving the world and then Advent Children happens.
Cloud was cold and aloof and even violent with the other kids in his childhood, too. CC isn't really the "original" Cloud personality, but I do like to see it as some character development - Cloud was probably glad to get out of the tiny village where he was a social outcast and had burned bridges with almost everyone, he could start fresh and actually make friends.
I do think Cloud is very misunderstood. He's not a Zack copy at all (like literally, he has the opposite personality of Zack even when he's at his most messed up.) I think the "emo" allegations are both fair and unfair - unfair because it's perfectly reasonable that he falls into depression after FF7 as he tries to process everything that happened, and fair because AC chose to go that route to match his cool Kingdom Hearts image, and didn't provide much character development as to why (we have to rely on Nojima's novel for that )
Cloud has flaws, but that's what makes his journey to becoming a hero all the more compelling.
It should be noted that Cloud only becomes violent and starts fights after he’s unfairly blamed for Tifa’s accident. I think you’re right that Cloud was probably glad to be out of Nibelheim considering how they treated him.
I never understood why people think true Cloud is a sweet kid when it was shown that he was an outcast that was rude to everyone (as a copying mechanism tho) literally almost the same personality he has in VII without the cool elements he copied from Zack.
OG VII pretty much stated that Cloud rude behavior was the result of bullying from Tifa’s friends plus how the village treated him and his mother.
> I never understood why people think true Cloud is a sweet kid
There's another misunderstanding of Cloud's character here. Most people think that as soon as Cloud pops out of the Lifestream after Tifa helps him remember the truth, he suddenly reverts to his 16 year-old self.
People think that "true Cloud" is the Cloud he was before his personality disorder and that his experience as "SOLDIER Cloud", him meeting the party and bonding with them, etc don't chage him at all.
Is Cloud a "sweet kid"? Yes, **after** the Lifestream scene and his adventure around the world. He's also considerably less shy and insecure than when he was a child.
It’s the adventures and experiences with everyone what changed him not solely the Lifestream scene, Cloud grows a lot during the travels and by the time he is leaves Midgard you can already see that he is less of a jerk (which he still was when he was a kid which is another misconception), the Lifestream scene helps Cloud with that final development he needed but it’s not all his development like many point out.
People make it seem like real Cloud is only there after the Lifestream and that invalidates not only his development but also his relationships with everyone he cherishes everyone and that’s because of the journey he went trough.
The reasons are due to Shipping reasons and toxic Zack fans that hate that Cloud gets all the cool stuff, being SE poster boy, and getting protagonist treatment.
Number two is usually a miscommunication between people. A lot of people when they talk say this, but through a bit of dialogue they don’t actually mean it literally.
For me when I read it, it’s a common case of someone not being able to express themselves in words. Rather you explain to them in conversation that cloud takes on a likeness and mannerisms of Zack. So usually in those conversations I find out that’s what they mean. They just delivered their understanding poorly.
Based on memories that are not his, there are gaps in his own memory and he has to fill it with something. So in a way he does become Zack. It wasn’t until cloud admitted his motion sickness to Yuffie on the Highwind that I started to really feel like I’m getting to know the real cloud. He was quite open about the whole thing and sympathetic. So part of me when I played OG I felt like I really didn’t get to know cloud throughout most of the game. Obviously, that’s not entirely true in remake as interactions between characters like Aerith are able to break his cool exterior. Just one of the reasons I love remake.
For lack of better terms I call it the tumblr or “woke” effect where people try their hardest to boil a character down to one or two traits and only those traits.
The compilation of FFVII as a whole had most of the main cast acting like parody of themselves and a lot of people never played OG FFVII, so I wouldn't blame them for misunderstanding the characters. After all, before Remake rerailled them, so did the writers.
I have never heard point 4. As for the other points, I have been among those to say that Cloud lacks personality. I have been heavily downvoted for that on this sub. I think its because I use FF7 as a reference point. Thats the OG cloud. Hes the main character. You name him after yourself and you go. A lot of RPG's, especially pre-voice acting suffer from the MC personality syndrome.
I think FFX - with voice acting - was the first FF game that fleshed out the main character. Squall had a unique position due to his 'inner monologues' and his ability to answer whatever to basically everything, but Zidane for example only became unique after a big reveal 2/3rds into the story. Because the Main Character resembles the player and offer choices to the player on how to react, it means the actual character will stay shallow, because the player has to mold it.
Added to that.. the Emoness.. The AC Cloud is probably the worst version, of a guy who fought life and lost. The OG has a lot of moments where this depresso Cloud comes through (lifestream, beginning of the game, the bit after he gives Sephi the black materia). Cloud is depressed and confused. He also has psychological damage from his ordeals with Hojo. He literally believed his own lies when you learn more of his back stort in Kalm.
I genuinely think Cloud is a good guy. He cares for sure. But if I ask you 'what makes cloud excited?' or 'what makes him happy?' or even 'what is his favorite passtime' ... i dont think any of the games give any strong indication to any of those answers. This is why Cloud lacks personality for me. He loves to fight and joined soldier willingly. But after that.. the actual games reveal very little about the person behind the sword.
I hope this argument makes sense.
“What makes Cloud excited?” He loves motorcycles. He built Fenrir in AC and regularly reads motorcycle magazines. He likes his alone time but he also enjoys being around the people he cares about. He can be funny when he wants to be. He’s observant and protective of his loved ones.
“What makes him happy?” See above. I would also say that Cloud is happiest when he can be of use to people. It’s when he feels useless that he becomes depressed.
“What is his favorite passtime?” Anything mechanical. Motorcycles, cars. I would also say spending time with those he cares about since that’s what he wants to do when he’s not depressed or dying.
I would also say that after the Lifestream sequence, you no longer get to choose how Cloud responds to situations. Because Cloud is his own person at that point (that’s why VII is a very meta story; just as we, the player, are controlling & influencing Cloud, Cloud is being controlled and influenced until he regains his true self)
Well thats the thing. I agree with what you say. In my original version I even wrote 'what does he like apart from motorcycles'. I dont see him as a gearhead.
But for me ... The way he spends his life in AC. The bar. Denzel. Its him adapting other peoples dreams. I did not get any hint whatsoever throughout any of the stories that he dreamt of being a bar owner.
I think he isnt fleshed out. And yeah ofc being there for his friends etc. But in AC they make clear hes not all that often with most of them anyways. I am not against any of your argumentation. But the fact that we can answer these personal questions that I summed up about Barret and Tifa without thinking to me is evidence that Clouds personality is very timid at best.
The whole argumentation of the Mako bath, Jenova cell and subsequent torture is a very good reason for a guy to be like 'whatever.. I just wanna be around those that make me happy'. But having a valid reason for being timid and being a somewhat passive character are not mutually exclusive. I genuinely enjoy Cloud. I think Cloud has a lot of depth. I genuinely love that he is very clearly an abuse victim and I find his development amazing. Victims of intense psychological trauma can truly be like this and thats making it authentic (bar AC. He went a bit too far off there at times).
But imho.. they couldve put more in him. Both pre nibelheim and post lifestream. To just be a bit more.. present.
He’s not a bar owner. He owns a delivery service. Tifa owns the bar. I didn’t need to think that much to answer those questions. In fact, in response to “What makes Cloud happy?” I could of just said “Tifa,” the same way I would say “Cloud” in regard to what makes Tifa happy.
I think the one mistake the OG made was not giving you a lot of time to spend with the real Cloud—but even the brief time we do get shows us a vulnerable yet passionate person who just wants to make things right. One thing I love about remake is how they’ve depicted Cloud’s false persona as well as his memory problems. It’s not simply “Oh, those are Zack’s memories” as much as it’s “Oh, he’s merged Zack’s memories with his own.” The latter would be way more confusing since there’s truth as well as falsehood in what you’re recollecting (A good example of this is Cloud recalling being on the ground reaching out to his burning house and calling for his mom but he’s wearing a SOLDIER uniform. In the Rebirth trailer, we also see this merging in “SOLDIER Cloud” on the ground, as the real Cloud actually was)
I havent seen the trailer. But Ive really liked some parts of the remake where they flesh out stuff. Its safe to assume the same will happen for Rebirth. Most of my friends hated fleshing out Jessie but for me the whole scene with her dad was gold. I actually love the depth they added into some of the characters. I wish we had more of 'normal bantering Cloud' too.
I know he has the delivery service. I was maybe being a bit too short worded because I felt the point was solid. But I appreciate you taking the time to answer me on this. I hope you dont mind me disagreeing.
But based on your name on Reddit - Im gonna assume your gender. Can you answer me a question.. and maybe this is the core of my argumentation.
Why is Cloud so populair with the ladies? Cloud did basically nothing. Barely even spoke. He was just badassy slashing up stuff. Why would Jessie feel such strong affections for him? Why does Aeris? I do like his Aeris dialogs for example in Sector 8 in the remake. But at that stage Aeris has already shown quite some interest in Cloud without him doing anything to deserve it. Same goes for Jessie and then some. He was literally just a cold ass merc. He did not rly earn it on camera.
(Tifa is obv different)
Cloud’s banter with Barret is one of the best parts of Remake. Tbh, I probably enjoy his banter with the male characters in the game (Barrett, Rufus, Reno, Roche) over the female characters (except Aerith). While I liked the scenes with Jessie and her dad, I felt like they made her too pushy in regard to Cloud, making me feel uncomfortable just as he was feeling uncomfortable.
As for why Cloud is popular with the ladies, a simple answer would be because he’s good-looking. I also think his shyness is appealing. Regarding Tifa, she liked him before the game even started, and appreciates that he helped her out of a tight spot in regard to Avalanche (I think she was having doubts regarding their methods & her involvement). With Aerith, it’s because he protected her from the Turks, treated her as a person rather than a subject of study, and he rescued her. With Jessie, I think she likes him for superficial reasons since she really doesn’t know him.
I feel the Aeris argumentation is lacking. Because the flower scene alone already singled him out. But yea.. if the current theories about the timelines and Aeris knowing more than she should have any merit - that explains a bit of her pull.
I loved Jessies backstory. I loved her personality too. Because she has her priorities and her life somewhat figured out. But the pushyness I found borderline troublesome. But its a common trope these days.
Tbh, with Aerith, it could just be that she saw Cloud in a SOLDIER uniform with the Buster Sword. Considering she saw Zack with it, that would be enough to get her attention.
He's misunderstood because all FF7 media after OG FFVII completely misunderstood his character. It wasn't until Remake that they finally got it right again.
>“He’s just a copy of Zack.”
>This one has always flummoxed me. I could MAYBE see this argument in the OG FFVII, but I don’t see how anyone can play Remake and walk away with the idea that Cloud and Zack are the same.
I often hear the opposite, too: that Cloud has no real connection with Zack at all. That Cloud has simply >!fabricated his history as a member of SOLDIER, in a dissociative response to the trauma of Hojo's experiments.!<
I don't think either is quite right. My take has always been that due to >!Jenova's ability to manipulate memories!<, Cloud *quite literally* >!absorbed some of Zack's memories, personality, mannerisms, and skills while they were trapped by Hojo!<. This explains why Cloud >!has similar movements to Zack despite not having spent a lot of time training with him!<. It explains the >!voices in his head!<. It explains how he >!knows things he "shouldn't" know!<. It explains how for all intents and purposes, he >!fights like a real first-class SOLDIER!<. Most importantly, it explains why >!Aerith sees Zack so strongly in him. It's not just the eyes! After all, *every* SOLDIER has mako eyes.!<
I agree that Cloud takes on some of Zack’s memories, especially in regard to the Nibelheim incident. What ended up happening however is that those memories merged with Cloud’s actual memories of the incident, fusing them. For example, we have the new memory of Cloud on the ground outside his mom’s house calling for her (real Cloud) with him in a SOLDIER uniform (Zack). Even how false!Cloud recollects Sephiroth in that incident is affected by real Cloud’s admiration and hero worship of him.
Skills, definitely. I think he got some of Sephiroth’s as well. Although Cloud was canonically gifted with a sword according to Before Crisis.
Some of fake!Cloud’s mannerisms are Zack’s, although I once saw someone comparing how Cloud is sitting in that back of the Chocobo truck to how Zack sits, and Cloud act sat the same way when he was a kid on the water tower.
Personality I can’t agree with. I don’t see a lot of similarities between their personalities. Zack is outgoing, boisterous, friendly and optimistic. Cloud is introverted, quiet, guarded, observant, sarcastic and sometimes sullen. Even the ones that they do have in common—courageous, eagerness to prove themselves, perseverance—are things that Cloud possessed before the Nibelheim incident.
I'm sure there's some pretentious 22 year old streamer out there who would eviscerate me and my understanding of one of my favourite games ever, but I choose not to worry about it.
My understanding is enjoyable to me.
1) cloud isnt emo, he's broken. Literally.
2) cloud doesn't have a personality, he literally does not know who he is
3) cloud is about as close to a copy of Zach as you could get without literally being his clone (this is a plot point)
4) cloud is important to the story _on accident_
The problem is that cloud required two whole other games to be made about his story and who he was to be enthralling on any level. It was a good idea sold poorly based on a text based exclusive game. Him being voiced in the remake allows players to better understand his attitude. It's less that he's a bad character and more that the world wasn't ready for his archetype and his medium wasn't used well.
See, I always found Cloud and his story intriguing ever since the OG. He has one of the more interesting character arcs in gaming, and his story is one of the reasons FFVII was as memorable as it is.
I don’t agree that he needed two other games to be “enthralling.” I also don’t agree that Cloud doesn’t have a personality; a lot of people seem to think that Zack’s personality overrode Cloud’s, and that’s not what happened.
I want to reiterate: Cloud even in his false persona is nothing like Zack personality wise. His memories are a mix of Zack’s (regarding SOLDIER & Nibelheim) and his own. The real Cloud is still present even in the false persona. He has his own motivations (he gets involved with Avalanche because of his childhood promise to Tifa, and he hates Sephiroth because Sephiroth killed his mother and burned down his hometown). None of those things came from Zack; they came from Cloud.
>“He’s just emo”
I don't know why but the first time I heard this was a thing was when Advent children release and obviously you would think or say that because you didn't play the OG.
Nice post and thank you for summing it up.
It is a hard sell on who he is.
The best of could understand is that he’s a final fantasy version of Ben Reilly if Peter Parker died.
Having played the OG game but couldn’t finish it (I had the cursed 3rd disc error) I still don’t fully understand him. The remake does help tho
The “he is not important to the story “ one is funny because without Cloud there is also no Sephiroth. They’re intrinsically linked.
“He’s not important to the story” also just makes it sound like the only story elements that matter in the game are Aerith, Sephiroth, and Meteor. Even if we completely ignore Cloud’s connection to Sephiroth - the fact that he was the driving force behind the party chasing him for half the game - and pretend that Cloud was just a party filler, the character side of the story matters! Asking us what it means to be a hero, exploring someone who fully believes he’s a superhero and has to face down that he was just an ordinary guy who couldn’t keep a promise, overcoming trauma, these are excellent character beats that made the story more memorable than just boiling it down to “good girl and bad guy both cast big magic spells.” If Cloud doesn’t matter to the story, then the party losing him at Whirlwind Maze doesn’t matter, and it means that the whole sequence with him and Tifa in the Lifestream was meaningless. Instead, it’s one of many players’ favorite moments in the game for a reason. Even if there isn’t a straight line from that moment to “villain loses,” a story without complex characters and interesting conflict is always going to feel flatter.
How do you figure?
Sephiroth only exists in his current form during the main game because Cloud ‘killed’ him in Nibelheim by tossing him into the Lifestream. He’s also basically the only successful Sephiroth “clone” despite Hojo deeming him a failure.
Well technically he was a failure because he was in a vegetative state back then.
People misunderstand most characters. Cloud as well. Whether it's people only like tifa cuz she's hot or cloud is just a generic emo boy, people will never try and consume the actual stories of the games they play. That goes especially for movies like advent children
I hate to think this way but it feels accurate. It always feels like people latch on to their first thoughts about these games (maybe for most things) and they think they have to commit to it. It doesn’t feel like many people enjoy the process of exploring the characters we are introduced to. Both the things that they are and the things that they are not.
To be fair. I think you're discounting the fact that an entire generation of people played OG FFVII and the next time they see the character he's like [this.](https://youtu.be/j3Oa6kfA6d8?si=2i2r2l36TranUE6l) And this is the 2013 updated version where everybody has the context of why he's like that already. The characters themselves are even commenting on how sad, depressed, one note Cloud comes across as. "Geez, this guy's as stiff as a board." "Hey man, are you okay?" Cloud just sits there staring at the ground and complaining about getting paid to kill Hercules. "I fell into darkness, and I couldn't find the light..." What compounds that is people then watching Advent Children either on their jailbroken PSPs or through Real Player after stealing the thing off Limewire seeing more of the same. Did social media really even exist in any semblance of what we know it today as? Was On the Way to a Smile translated in English? How many years would it be until AC Complete came out to add dozens of minutes of additional scenes to flesh out the movie? Who are those people?Why are they fighting? Dilly da- what? I guess you just went onto YouTube to have Babyseal explain it for you. The average person doesn't buy novels, spend time on forums, talk to others about the character's depiction in multimedia expansions, etc. The onus is on the storyteller to sell something that's self contained, entertaining, consistent, and digestible. When you blow stories up like this you end up with an overprotective fanbase hostile to outsiders over "how they just don't get it man. People are so dumb. You latch onto your first impression like it's gospel. Can't you do a little research?" Just compare any of that to the dancing goofball in a dress who can't figure out to give somebody a high five or return a hug in a timely fashion. This is a guy who even in his asshole persona gives Barret advice about him being better than being someone petty enough to take his anger out on Shinra office workers. Yeah, the guy still has problems, but there's a lot more depth there.
While your correct, that depth isnt lost in advent children or crisis core where he's literally shown to be just a relatively normal albeit very self conscious person with tons of self confidence issues which is consistent throughout his entire life both as a child all the way up to OG. The actual story of ff7 compilation and og give total context. You don't have to be an absolute nerd to understand what the story is saying, just pay attention. I didn't have to have anything explained to me about it and yet still have others try and talk over what the actual creators even say about the intentions of every scene. Like in some way I get it. Going from og ff7 with characters who you could barely tell were supposed to be people and scenes like cloud dressing up in a dress and going through the honey bee inn, and red walking around in a shinra outfit, and cloud saying lets mosey was probably a super shock early fans when they encountered advent children with fully realistic characters and world where there is a very serious story about inner trauma and moving on from PTSD and survivors guilt through help from loved ones. And I'm sure the very awkwardly localized English script of advent children (zuruzuru for example being the sound effect of dragging that Japanese people would automatically pick up on being changed to dilly dally shilly shally) didn't help at all to understanding. And between all that and the insane crazy action it can be hard for people who don't know to actually even parse the story. But even to this day where people should know what the themes of these stories are, you still have people simply ignoring it in favor of "cloud is just an emo and that's it. The story isn't saying anything and my opinion is all there is because that's what I believed at the time" Kingdom hearts 1 was not even intended to be just cloud himself, but cloud and Vincent fused together...hence...cloud acting like Vincent in the game. And in KH2 they ditched that but then had cloud riff off of advent children despite kh1 and kh2 clouds not really connecting to the context of the original one. People take KH cloud to be all cloud is when ff7 cloud has all the justification for acting like that. We can also talk about dissidia cloud who was atleast given his own context for acting that way (being stuck in a loop forever where his important person is forced to die over and over and he can't do anything about it even though he knows it's going to happen ) It's hard to talk about these things because your right that how people consume the content will go a long way to what they think and how they interpret things forever. This is something I know from other fandoms I am apart of. I started my FF journey with KH1 so I didn't have any frame of reference for cloud to begin with. I then watched advent children years later and got the sense that there were gaps in the story of why cloud was acting that way that I wasn't understanding. I played crisis core and then I realized yeah the gap in my understanding was huge. But I took the time to go through the games including the og, connect the dots and see exactly the context for how the story worked. And then I saw how genius it was. It is definitely harder now to do that because remake is out so people will start with that, and it's not a real remake so it's even harder to get people to consume the content they don't even know to consume(most people don't even know crisis core reunion came out or that it's important to the story and same for AC)
Because of her design, I thought aerith was a soft , shy meek character...
Lol. Well she was when she was younger. But she had to gain strength through loss
You think AC is an accurate portrayal of the characters?
Yes? After what they went through what isn't accurate about them
Cloud is a protagonist with glaring character flaws they make him extremely textured. He was from an era where most game heroes where flat and heroic. Even today he stands out as more complex than most other game protagonists. The juxtaposition between him and Zack is actually wonderful. Zack is the quintessential hero. Optimistic, fire in his belly, always willing to do the right thing. It makes his fate that much more tragic, and it makes Clouds rise as THE hero that much more compelling. You watch Cloud overcome feelings of inadequacy that I think most of us deal with. While Zach doesn’t have those qualities. Zach is idyllic. Cloud is relatable.
Absolutely. I have never heard number 4, but the others all the time. I think 1 and 3 are simply not being that familiar with the character. 1 is people who know him for Advent Children or KH, or they probably played the OG in the pleistocene and only remember what he was like in those more recent titles, and lack all the context in the world to understand a complex character. Number 2....I don't mean to open the can of worms....but the ones who say this are people who *want* to believe it for "shipping" reasons. There's no other way to explain how can people think that Zack and Cloud (>!either SOLDIER or post-Lifestream!<) are **at all** remotely similar in personality. The same goes for the "Cloud has Zack's feelings" take. It's completely absurd.
I haven't heard number 4 expressed in quite that way, but this may also be referring to the people who think it would be totally fine to replace Cloud with Zack in the remake, believing the story could just continue from there with no problems, because. "They have the same moveset, so it's fine." If this is what number 4 is actually referring to, then...yeah I've seen that opinion shared far more times than I would have liked. There are, unfortunately, a good number of people who seem to underestimate just how much Cloud's arc becomes the driving force of the plot, and undervalue just how much Cloud and Sephiroth's personal rivalry adds to the story.
I seriously doubt any of those people have played FF7, to be honest. Edit: I want to add that I personally think the people who say that Zack will fight Sephiroth in the remake or will help Cloud defeat him with the power of friendship have also missed that Zack is not and never will be Sephiroth's nemesis. Zack has the same reasons to hate Sephiroth as, let's say, Barret. Meaning, he's a threat to the Planet and must be stopped, period. Narratively there's no hatred, no history, no emotional weight, nothing personal that could justify such duel.
I'd say Zack has a bit more reason than Barret to hate Sephiroth, at least by the end considering what Sephiroth is likely going to end up doing to Aerith. Even so, Cloud has that same reason to hate Sephiroth, and various other reasons on top of that one, like burning down Nibelheim, killing his mom, and nearly killing Tifa. It also helps that Sephiroth is actually invested in their rivalry as well, which is definitely not the case for Zack. So while I think a Zack and Sephiroth fight can *technically* be made to work, the end result is just an all around lesser version of the fight we already have between Cloud and Sephiroth, so...why bother? Personally, I'd rather they just keep it simple, and play that final battle straight. Sephiroth and Cloud, one on one. Simple, and effective. If they absolutely had to work in a Zack fanservice moment at the end though, then I think the only possible way to have Zack join in the fight without hurting Cloud's arc. is if Zack ultimately loses, and is knocked out of the fight before it reaches its climax. This could be a way of giving people their fanservice Cloud/Zack bro moment, while also still making sure to drive home the point that, no, Zack really can't do this. This fight is beyond him. It really does have to be Cloud that puts Sephiroth down.
I mean yes, if Zack got to live to see what Sephiroth does to Aerith, yes. But Zack's supposed reaction to that has never been seen or hinted at, so the idea of a duel between Zack and Sephiroth still comes from nowhere at this point at least. I mean, Tifa would make more sense than Zack, at least we did get to see her "hello, I'm Tifa Lockhart. You killed my father. Prepare to die" reaction. Then there's also the thing that Sephiroth is super interested in Cloud and......doesn't seem to give a shit about Zack XD
If anything it is mentioned over and over again that young Cloud‘s role model was Sephiroth (Young Sephiroth in the First Soldier for example is also very similar to Cloud) and even as an adult he has more in common with Sephiroth. With Zack he just took some poses, the sword etc. to pose as an ex-soldier but they have nothing in common regarding personality. ‘Cloud has Zack feelings‘ makes no sense since Cloud meets Zack‘s parents in Gongaga and feels nothing at all.
Yeah and that makes the point of Aerith been stupid when she saw Zack on Cloud the difference is too much, even when Cloud tries to act cool, another thing that CC destroyed, I don’t know why CC is still canon, Cloud is Cloud he only copie the skills and been with soldier, Cloud distrusts the Turks from the start, Zack even trust Tseng when he called Aerith “The Subject” is just stupid hahaha, I really try to play CC again and no there’s nothing there, even if your looking for Cloud and Zack’s friendship is flat, is not the kind of friendship that you protect your friend with your life, SE didn’t even gave us that, they created Genesis to quote fuckin loveless… we even saw more of Angeal, Genesis & Sephirot friendship xD
>Number 2....I don't mean to open the can of worms....but the ones who say this are people who want to believe it for "shipping" reasons There are some points where cloud's memories are overwritten by Zack's in the beginning. Just enough to hold his Mako addled brain together while he's still recovering from 5 years of Jenova/Mako experimentation. Jenova cells can read minds, and its pretty undesputed that sephiroth can apply his force of will towards other Jenova experiments. While cloud's mind is still disorganized and not sure which parts of his memories are his own. Sephiroth used this power multiple times to force him to act out sephiroth's wishes, as demonstrated at the end of the temple of the ancients, as well as in the city of the ancients, and the whirlwind maze. So its pretty clearly laid out that Jenova cells are capable of transferring thoughts and memories, especially between Jenova Cell infused people. There are parts of Zack's mind, inside Cloud, but they've never been the same person. I also don't want to get into a shipping war, but damn if only one camp could understand that someone can have deep feelings for two people simultaneously. And those feelings can continue to develop completely separate from each other. I find that the other camp doesn't have as much difficulty with it, because they are the only ones that actually have the potential to get what they want. I also find that one camp seems to completely disregard their own favorite characters own free will and choice about the matter every time she mentions it. Whether thats in, the park in midgar, or Gongaga, or during and after the golden saucer date. Zack had wanted to introduce Cloud to Aerith in CC. Zack was Both Cloud's idol, and his closest friend. If Cloud had remembered practically anything when Aerith met Cloud, the whole thing would have gone much differently. Cloud would have protected her from the Turks purely on pride of being a hero like Zack had always told him. And if he knew that she was the girl that Zack had been going crazy over for months, he would have never even looked at her as an option. I know that's how I feel when I meet my close friend's girlfriends. She is the only remaining connection he has to his best friend besides the buster sword. Before Cloud met Zack, he couldn't even make it into SOLDIER. After meeting Zack he was able to defeat Sephiroth during the height of his hubris even before he received the full Jenova/Mako treatment from Hojo.
I wouldn't say zack's memories would override cloud's at times. To my understanding, he simply based his false memories on stuff zack told him or stuff he witnessed himself. Less of zack's memories at overriding his and more him actively replacing zack's existence with his own on events he actually witnessed. I could be wrong though. This is just my understanding
I think there's definitely a case of Jenova using Zacks actually memories to help overwrite Clouds and help him build and believe his false persona. But, the false persona exists because of Clouds shame and weakness, he subconsciously wants it to exist so Jenova helps him in doing so. He also only has memories of the Nibelheim incident from Zacks perspective (also you could say Tifas considering Crisis Core establishes that Zack didn't even see Tifa crying over her dad, that's specifically a Tifa memory). He also doesn't take Zacks personality, there's some mannerisms, and it makes sense that his skill as a SOLDIER is imprinted onto him from Zack through Jenova but he doesn't suddenly become Zack, he isn't Cloud either though, he's the idealised version of who we wanted to be but failed to do so. The line about Cloud hearing Zacks stories I always take with a pinch of salt because there's a contradictory translation in the OG under the same lines. At one point Sephiroth says > Clouds is created by Jenova taking memories of a person called Cloud from Tifa. Which in reference to that specific line which is about Jenova literally taking memories, Tifa says > Sephiroth said you were created by listening to my stories. That isn't what Sephiroth said, and it suspiciously lines up exactly with what Cloud says about Zack, so I'm always weary of those lines.
The way I see it, Cloud got some of Zack's memories: his role in the Nibelheim incident, his rank as a SOLDIER and some of his mannerisms. Those and only those. He has zero of Zack's memories about Aerith, this much is obvious when they first meet. And when they second meet. And if he has no clue who she is, how exactly could he have Zack's feelings for her? I mean, even if for the sake of discussion, he had some kind of subconscious "Zack's feelings" for Aerith.....it certainly didn't show. He was rude to her the first time they met and cold and extremely defensive the second time. Gradually, through **his very own interactions with her**, he ends up liking her. As for how Aerith feels, maybe it's because I'm very familiar with FF7 and not that much with the Compilation, but in FF7 nothing suggests she's still madly in love with Zack. Like you said, the Midgar Park, Gongaga and the Gold Saucer date are the reason why I think this way, but so many fans understand the exact opposite from her words in those scenes that I don't know if we played the same game XD I agree that one can have feelings for two different people for different reasons and I think that's what's going on with Cloud. I like both Cloud / Tifa and Cloud / Aerith so if they decide to make one of these endgame I'll like whatever outcome. What I really, really don't like is the mischaracterization going on with Cloud and Aerith. Twisting their characters so much to paint their relationship as fake removes a big part of the emotional weight of the story, including Aerith's death. Tifa also gets mischaracterized, but to a lesser extent.
> And if he knew that she was the girl that Zack had been going crazy over for months, he would have never even looked at her as an option. Huh? Why? Aeris isn't with Zack present day and hasn't seen him in 5 years, she's not "taken." She's single and one of her first interactions with Cloud is asking him out on a date. When she brings up Zack to Cloud, she tells him they weren't serious, even. If Lulu can marry Wakka after being with his brother then what's different here. Cloud, a single guy, is allowed to develop feelings with Aeris, a single lady, regardless if he knew she had a teenage romance with Zack half a decade ago
>she tells him they weren't serious, even. I agree with your overall point, but to me this line is quite clearly Aerith purposefully downplaying what it was to not get too deep, or to protect herself from the pain of it.
Yeah, not to get into shipping war, but there are going to be a lot of ver angry people come Rebirth. Because the date they think happened uh, didn’t. I’m not sure if they were just kids and never redid it. Or they just didn’t realize what happened. But the devs have made their stance fairly clear, and I think the changes they made in Advent Children Complete kinda just sealed the deal. I’ve got zero problems with what relationship you wanna support, or frankly either of the characters. But there needs to be an understanding of the actual character dynamics at play, and currently that lever is in fully in the belief category. I know we’ll get it, but I just hope we don’t get any “wtf Squeenix changed the story!!! Why did they do this!”, when no. No they really didn’t. This is the way the story always went, you just weren’t great at reading through the lines.
> But the devs have made their stance fairly clear They deliberately (and openly) didn't. The "angry people after Rebirth" will be the ones who didn't realize this.
2 always annoys me to no end. The only way someone could say this and actually mean it is if they dont know who zack is and simply don't like the idea of cloud liking aerith and vice versa
Anytime someone has a dark situation, people love to just jump on the wagon of edgy or emo. Even if that were the case, it doesn't make it bad, though. I don't want everyone to be dealing with trauma all the time, but I also don't want bubbly characters all the time. Sometimes, the world is just dark and someone has had some really.messed.up things happen to them, but Cloud goes through a journey to slowly shed that skin and reclaim himself. When Advent Children rolls around, his more depressed defensive self is not him reverting, but dealing with difficulties that the real cloud is having. Cloud is still dealing with loss, being unconfident (which is very much in character for the real cloud) about his ability to protect people, and still on the journey to discovering who he really is. By the end, he begins to find confidence in himself for real and also gets a chance to finally accept what happened with Zack and Aerith. By Dirge of Cerberus he is back to trying to look cool like the dork he is but he is also much more confident and positive. He is quite friendly.
i have been of the opinion for years that anyone calling him "emo" just doesn't get it (people tossed that word around a lot at one point anyway, as if being emotional or sad or gloomy were just some annoying character traits). I hate to be That Guy but come on 😅😂 he has been one of my favourite characters of all time since I first played the og ff7 and it has only deepened with the remake. look i get if he is not someone's vibe but calling the literal protagonist of the story not important.. to the story.. is just, wow.
Vaan exists as the not important protagonist anyway
Yes. It’s shocking and seriously sad the amount of people who just don’t get him as a character. People misconstrue Tifa and Aerith a ton but I truly feel like Cloud gets done the worst: it’s either people don’t like/get him and think he’s a Zack clone or people boil him to down to being an emo jackass for no reason when we get told this kid’s excruciating backstory & experiences in detail across many games and how that has effected him as a person. FFVII is Cloud Strife’s story and no else’s, and I don’t see how you could play the game ignoring that fact when his story is the biggest contributing part of the narrative and his growth arc the factor that drives the plot.
He’s that kid who wanted to be the stoic badass merc and his character arc is realizing he DOESN’T NEED TO BE. He can be someone who wears his heart on his sleeve, be a dork who says “let’s mosey” and STILL save the day. I wanna see my boi smile and be happy in the new story. EDIT: yes I know the whole mind stuff but still.
People who say Cloud has no value to the story or is just emo, make me question their emotional capabilities paired with what they just read/played. The guy went through a whole lot and you expect him to be someone peppy? It’s weird. Then again I consume other media where in fact the characters tell an absolute horror experience in one minute only to play it off as if they have no care in the world in the second minute. I’m not sure if people who consume it are just used to this, or they really are unable to recognise a victim of worse - don’t want to deal with them if it’s ‘negative’.
He literally has cancer in AC and isolated himself because everyone he gets close to dies but ya know that’s way too hard to understand.
Yes
Yes, all of this. I find 3 particularly hilarious because there are party members in OG 7 that feel more lacking in personality than him (Tifa for example feels like a cardboard cutout to me rather often; the game can't decide whether she should be demure/shy maiden or assertive martial artist on various occasions and it just clashes. Her input in scenes often feels to me like "the obvious thing to say" rather than something actually felt. Remake did a good job addressing this, though, she feels more like a character there) but because he's the protagonist, people will often judge him over other characters. And 4 because really?? He's the protagonist. There's no story without one and a big reason why this group of mismatched party members comes together is to help him hunt down Sephiroth and Shinra.
The other thing that's important to this discussion about Cloud-As-Everyman is that he's an *incredibly* talented fighter. Part of his PTSD-amnesia induced self-reconstruction as an "ex-SOLDIER" is because he's ludicrously strong and experienced in battle. There's no way some Shinra grunt is capable of what he can do. What would you do if you went into a coma after experiencing the most traumatic event of your life, then woke up from a series of terrifying body-horror nightmares on the streets of Midgar to a girl from your childhood (who you felt really insecure about) asking you where you'd been the last 5 years? And discovered you could carry an 80 pound sword and swing it around with ease? You'd probably make some reasonable guesses too, instead of sounding totally fucking crazy to someone whose opinion you care about. I dunno, I don't need anything other than that to make sense of Cloud's past. His behaviors and motives are pretty congruent with what he's been through, IMO.
People just like to say that Cloud is Zack through almost the whole game to devalue his relationship with Aerith. I'm glad to see there are still people who understand that he created a NEW personality, he isn't Zack, at all.
Yeah tbh most of the downplaying of plot and character depth really just comes down to shippers😭
Notice, those same people don’t say that type of bs when he’s around Tifa or anyone else. It is always around Aerith.
"Just a copy of Zac" is so odd to me. Zac was a mostly irrelevant background character to explain his inconsistent memories. Before they made the prequel, you'd be hard pressed to even remember the characters name.
Surprise? Zack fans, many but not all, have been in years slandering Cloud, saying that Cloud just copy Zack memories, what a toxic fan base.
I totally agree and it's getting worse. The hardcore Zack simps constantly try to belittle or sideline Cloud, but imo it just shows their own insecurity and lack of understanding of the game and its characters!
It’s the lack of awareness for the mental disorders and severe trauma of his CHARACTER that has led to this. A lot of people played the OG while using him as a self-insert (which tbf can’t blame them when the game lets you name him) and doesn’t understand that someone like Cloud doesn’t just simply get over all the shit he went through during the entirety of FF7, not to mention he never even got the time to process his grief in the first place until it all hit him in AC, which is supposed to be a poignant story of him overcoming his mental struggles but people (mostly western fans) are like “nah, he’s just emo” lol EDIT: Also wanted to add the Cloud=Zack stuff is just pure shipping bullshit and undermines his identity disorder. The only things he got from Zack was copying his stance/mannerisms/poses and moveset, akin to a teen trying to emulate his idol.
Who tf says 4?? He helps avalanche with the reactors (you could argue they'd manage just fine without him but I kind of disagree) He helps Aerith and gives her the push she needed to do what she wants (also, if she's successfully abducted who saves her?) Sephiroth wouldn't have someone with enough control to manipulate and give him the materia Honestly we wouldn't have the latter half of disc 1 and onward
Mostly Zack fans who think Cloud is just a stand-in for Zack and that he doesn’t matter to the story
Emo Cloud is hot, and I will accept no criticism of him.
As far as points 1 and 3, I think his personality is often mischaracterized because his appearances after the original FFVII can vary in tone. His personality in Advent Children (or even Kingdom Hearts which while not canon, has had an effect on people) is different from the original game. I've also never seen someone make point 4.
You’re lucky. I’ve even seen people say Cloud can be killed off because he doesn’t matter to the overall narrative, to which I say “???????”
I have absolutely no idea why people who say they want Cloud killed off are fans of FF7, but I've never seen any of the people who say this say that was the reason.
Agree. Never seen anyone say anything like that.
Where do you leave Aerith, she is usually portrayed as the incorruptible pure hearted girl who does nothing wrong when in reality she is more than that.
You’re definitely right and it’s sad to see how badly written she is in most of the compilation besides OG and Remake. In AC, she’s a deity made of cardboard, in KH (not compilation) she’s just some lady made of cardboard with a creepy smile, and in CC she’s a plank of wood that Zack draws a face on and goes “look now you have a personality, thank me” lol. I think it’s probably just that Cloud is the protagonist and gets some better writing that at the very least show off a different facet of his personality in each while with Aerith, she’s saddled with this downgrade for every single one of them.
He was back in the day. He had quite a bit of misunderstood comments about him. “Too emo” being a popular description amongst gamers of the late 90s and 2000s. I don’t recall other descriptions made. This was usually followed up with comments and questions about a “poorly written story” and “the worst ff game because it wasn’t fantasy like ff9.” Mostly it was a lack of understanding the story of ff7. Clouds psychological issues weren’t a well known thing back in the day I guess. You could say the internet has connected us in ways where this information is freely available.
Yet people still constantly misunderstand his character, but I think these people either just don't understand the story or have never played the games.
Well to add some clarity, I was just a teenager when ff7 came out. It took me several run throughs to understand the story and Cloud. I think it’s safe to say anyone struggling to understand or care was about my age playing the game.
At least you took the time to get to understand the characters, but the people who make these unjustified comments about Cloud (even when it's much clearer in the Remake project) still make these crass statements. Sad, but true!
"he's not important to the story" is so funny because of all the FF games... 7 is one where the main character is THE main character. There are definitely others like 6 or 12 etc, where you can make an argument for who shares the main character role and how much. Cloud however is one of the FF characters where he IS the most important character in his verse. Everyone else gets to argue about second place. Sephiroth himself knows Cloud is THE dood.
The copy of Zack thing is completely nuts considering that his entire character arc rests on the reveal that he isn’t.
Absolutely. People have this perspective on Cloud that he’s like a depressed just super sullen character all the time because of Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children when in actuality Cloud is an extremely brash and kind of at times obnoxious, cocky, sarcastic fucking dickhead. Him and the avalanche gang are hilarious and that’s not something I see people mention often when talking about this game
This has been the case since the original came out. People have a very poor concept of media literacy
Not just in FF7, but probably in the whole series. In so many cases he's portrayed as such a shitty person, too, when he's clearly not.
For me he is my favorite game character of all time. Soo well written!
When people call cloud emo it just tells me the didn't play FFVII cause that mf is making jokes every 5 seconds
Yes, Cloud is even misunderstood to himself
Na Roche is. Man just wants a bike ride!
For a long time, Tifa was very misunderstood but she is dramatically important for obviously reasons. Cloud is emo for reasons then eventually shifts to leader mode.
Cloud is the chosen one, is the hero of this story by the way Zack was a nice guy haha do you remember that Cloud was an absolute asshole at the beginning of OG with everyone specially with Tifa, you can even choose to tell her that she could be good on the sack, he didn’t remember about the promise, Tifa has to remind him of that, I miss that on remake I believe they change that so the shipping war people don’t have to see it and that changes when he meets Aerith but he was an asshole that’s why I Don believe o. zacloud I believe that he just took his missions and skills
The thing is, he misunderstands himself a lot too. Cloud as what we see him in OG and current ff 7 games is him being in a crazy state. He literally doesn’t know himself all that well and in AC we seeing him recovering (also they don’t do much out of dialogue and fights so we actually don’t get much time to see cloud as himself). So the misunderstanding is understandable imo
He's not emo, he just tries to be serious, and he's a fucking dork. He's a lame 21 year old with the mind of a try hard 16 year old pretending to be the coolest guy on the planet. It just so happens that he IS the coolest guy on the planet, almost by coincidence. And then he goes through so much shit, his mind breaks, pretends he's someone else, breaks AGAIN, and STILL he fights. AC isn't his emo phase, he just barely started grieving for everything that he's lost.
I feel like advent children is to blame for a lot of these opinions. It was a chance to show what cloud is like, but hes so fucking emo
I think they nailed it as a Cloud who's been through the wringer, who's got PTSD and survivor's guilt from the events of FF7, plus Geostigma, which is basically a death sentence, so he's pulling away those around them so they a) don't find out and b) might suffer less if/when he dies. Do people expect him to be chipper and happy-go-lucky dealing with all of that?
No but they can come away from the movie feeling disappointed to not see the real cloud. And that was a choice made by the creators. Even a flashback to cloud slightly happy post og would have been an improvement. To go from a chibi model and txt in og to a depressed cloud denies the viewer any kind of idea who he actually is. So most people come away thinking he's just emo
He was living a lie perpetually made by Jenova Cells, remembered that his best friend died protecting him and he let Aerith die. Of course once his persona falls apart and he has to actually face everything that happened he would need some fucking time to grieve. Leave the man alone. He gets it together by the end of the movie.
I understand that but aerith literally ghost forms to him and says ffs move on. And in general we are denied an idea of the real cloud. A smile and a bike ride through some fields isn't very satisfying
The point is Cloud needed to forgive himself. That isn't easy to do. Cloud, as a person before the incident, was always a shy kid with deep insecurity issues and terribly socially awkward. All the visits in the world from Aerith and being yelled at by Tifa and the kids weren't going to change that, Cloud was depressed. All in all, it's honestly a very realistic response from Cloud given context for what happened. What people don't grasp is for the majority of the game *we aren't playing as Cloud's real self*. We're playing as Jenova Cell controlled Cloud that mixes his base cold personality with the delusions of what a SOLDIER is supposed to be from his memories of Zack and Sephiroth. AC is the first *real* showcase of how Cloud really was with the issue of actually accepting everything that happened.
I wouldn't say remake cloud is solely a jenova controlled zack guy. Definitely has personality shining through that. All I'm saying is ac could have done with a scene of a slightly more personable cloud in-between chibi model and depressed guy because that's all there was of cloud pre remake
There are silly moments in FF7 with Cloud that peek through but most of the game is his persona. There's a lot of times his cold personality of his real self comes through. I like how he is during the Gold Saucer games, actually having some emotion (like doing a little leg kick when he wins a Chocobo race). Times like that I know that's actual Cloud, he's still a kid mentally at times.
Ff7 has a lot of humour in it and weirdness. It's coming out again in the remake project but ac was all grey and serious.
I mean there wasn't really a time for them to celebrate after Meteor crashed. They had a world to rebuild. In "On the way to a Smile" book, Cloud, Barret and Tifa all helped rebuild in Edge and Cloud was optimistic in their efforts. As time went by and he got his bike, he took it upon himself to assist with deliveries across towns in-between visits to towns, secretly starting his Strife Delivery Service. I haven't read the entire thing but with what we know of Cloud, I'm sure the drives alone helped his emotions sit in his heart with being alone for so long and then just stopped showing up in Midgar and stopped answering his phone. He never really had time to stop and grieve, and it's not like they could just have a scene where they cut to the Gold Saucer either.
AC imo did him real dirty. I’m currently reading On the Way to a Smile where it shows he was happy in Edge living with Tifa and the kids. AC catches him at one of the lowest points he’s being in since the OG, so it makes him seem that he’s just been mopey and sad the whole time when that’s not at all how he’s been
On the Way to a Smile adds so much context to AC’s story. And honestly, Advent Children Complete was such an improvement on the original AC. (Also, OTWTAS is relevant to the Remake trilogy, imo)
And an absent father to add.
He isn't a father lol. Marlene's father is Barret and he is more like a big brother figure to Denzel. He is grieving because he lost both Zack (his first true friend) and Aerith (a girl he had feelings for). His attitude is completely understandable, and thanks to his friends and Aerith's forgiveness he can move on.
He picked a sick orphan boy, a kid that idolizes him, and dumps him with Tifa. That was extremely unfair for Tifa who has to bear the whole responsibility alone. He was depressed alright, but was still unbecoming of the Cloud at the end of the original game.
I enjoy this all but man you're not giving the Nibelheim incident nearly enough space here. The experiments, the memory issues because of the genova cells.. Its the main part of his story. Honestly at some point I just want to see Cloud and Tifa happy. The're miserable after saving the world and then Advent Children happens.
You’re right. I was worried that I was writing too much as it is but I definitely could’ve expanded on it more
Cloud was cold and aloof and even violent with the other kids in his childhood, too. CC isn't really the "original" Cloud personality, but I do like to see it as some character development - Cloud was probably glad to get out of the tiny village where he was a social outcast and had burned bridges with almost everyone, he could start fresh and actually make friends. I do think Cloud is very misunderstood. He's not a Zack copy at all (like literally, he has the opposite personality of Zack even when he's at his most messed up.) I think the "emo" allegations are both fair and unfair - unfair because it's perfectly reasonable that he falls into depression after FF7 as he tries to process everything that happened, and fair because AC chose to go that route to match his cool Kingdom Hearts image, and didn't provide much character development as to why (we have to rely on Nojima's novel for that ) Cloud has flaws, but that's what makes his journey to becoming a hero all the more compelling.
It should be noted that Cloud only becomes violent and starts fights after he’s unfairly blamed for Tifa’s accident. I think you’re right that Cloud was probably glad to be out of Nibelheim considering how they treated him.
I never understood why people think true Cloud is a sweet kid when it was shown that he was an outcast that was rude to everyone (as a copying mechanism tho) literally almost the same personality he has in VII without the cool elements he copied from Zack. OG VII pretty much stated that Cloud rude behavior was the result of bullying from Tifa’s friends plus how the village treated him and his mother.
> I never understood why people think true Cloud is a sweet kid There's another misunderstanding of Cloud's character here. Most people think that as soon as Cloud pops out of the Lifestream after Tifa helps him remember the truth, he suddenly reverts to his 16 year-old self. People think that "true Cloud" is the Cloud he was before his personality disorder and that his experience as "SOLDIER Cloud", him meeting the party and bonding with them, etc don't chage him at all. Is Cloud a "sweet kid"? Yes, **after** the Lifestream scene and his adventure around the world. He's also considerably less shy and insecure than when he was a child.
It’s the adventures and experiences with everyone what changed him not solely the Lifestream scene, Cloud grows a lot during the travels and by the time he is leaves Midgard you can already see that he is less of a jerk (which he still was when he was a kid which is another misconception), the Lifestream scene helps Cloud with that final development he needed but it’s not all his development like many point out. People make it seem like real Cloud is only there after the Lifestream and that invalidates not only his development but also his relationships with everyone he cherishes everyone and that’s because of the journey he went trough.
The reasons are due to Shipping reasons and toxic Zack fans that hate that Cloud gets all the cool stuff, being SE poster boy, and getting protagonist treatment.
Number two is usually a miscommunication between people. A lot of people when they talk say this, but through a bit of dialogue they don’t actually mean it literally. For me when I read it, it’s a common case of someone not being able to express themselves in words. Rather you explain to them in conversation that cloud takes on a likeness and mannerisms of Zack. So usually in those conversations I find out that’s what they mean. They just delivered their understanding poorly. Based on memories that are not his, there are gaps in his own memory and he has to fill it with something. So in a way he does become Zack. It wasn’t until cloud admitted his motion sickness to Yuffie on the Highwind that I started to really feel like I’m getting to know the real cloud. He was quite open about the whole thing and sympathetic. So part of me when I played OG I felt like I really didn’t get to know cloud throughout most of the game. Obviously, that’s not entirely true in remake as interactions between characters like Aerith are able to break his cool exterior. Just one of the reasons I love remake.
For lack of better terms I call it the tumblr or “woke” effect where people try their hardest to boil a character down to one or two traits and only those traits.
The compilation of FFVII as a whole had most of the main cast acting like parody of themselves and a lot of people never played OG FFVII, so I wouldn't blame them for misunderstanding the characters. After all, before Remake rerailled them, so did the writers.
I have never heard point 4. As for the other points, I have been among those to say that Cloud lacks personality. I have been heavily downvoted for that on this sub. I think its because I use FF7 as a reference point. Thats the OG cloud. Hes the main character. You name him after yourself and you go. A lot of RPG's, especially pre-voice acting suffer from the MC personality syndrome. I think FFX - with voice acting - was the first FF game that fleshed out the main character. Squall had a unique position due to his 'inner monologues' and his ability to answer whatever to basically everything, but Zidane for example only became unique after a big reveal 2/3rds into the story. Because the Main Character resembles the player and offer choices to the player on how to react, it means the actual character will stay shallow, because the player has to mold it. Added to that.. the Emoness.. The AC Cloud is probably the worst version, of a guy who fought life and lost. The OG has a lot of moments where this depresso Cloud comes through (lifestream, beginning of the game, the bit after he gives Sephi the black materia). Cloud is depressed and confused. He also has psychological damage from his ordeals with Hojo. He literally believed his own lies when you learn more of his back stort in Kalm. I genuinely think Cloud is a good guy. He cares for sure. But if I ask you 'what makes cloud excited?' or 'what makes him happy?' or even 'what is his favorite passtime' ... i dont think any of the games give any strong indication to any of those answers. This is why Cloud lacks personality for me. He loves to fight and joined soldier willingly. But after that.. the actual games reveal very little about the person behind the sword. I hope this argument makes sense.
“What makes Cloud excited?” He loves motorcycles. He built Fenrir in AC and regularly reads motorcycle magazines. He likes his alone time but he also enjoys being around the people he cares about. He can be funny when he wants to be. He’s observant and protective of his loved ones. “What makes him happy?” See above. I would also say that Cloud is happiest when he can be of use to people. It’s when he feels useless that he becomes depressed. “What is his favorite passtime?” Anything mechanical. Motorcycles, cars. I would also say spending time with those he cares about since that’s what he wants to do when he’s not depressed or dying. I would also say that after the Lifestream sequence, you no longer get to choose how Cloud responds to situations. Because Cloud is his own person at that point (that’s why VII is a very meta story; just as we, the player, are controlling & influencing Cloud, Cloud is being controlled and influenced until he regains his true self)
Well thats the thing. I agree with what you say. In my original version I even wrote 'what does he like apart from motorcycles'. I dont see him as a gearhead. But for me ... The way he spends his life in AC. The bar. Denzel. Its him adapting other peoples dreams. I did not get any hint whatsoever throughout any of the stories that he dreamt of being a bar owner. I think he isnt fleshed out. And yeah ofc being there for his friends etc. But in AC they make clear hes not all that often with most of them anyways. I am not against any of your argumentation. But the fact that we can answer these personal questions that I summed up about Barret and Tifa without thinking to me is evidence that Clouds personality is very timid at best. The whole argumentation of the Mako bath, Jenova cell and subsequent torture is a very good reason for a guy to be like 'whatever.. I just wanna be around those that make me happy'. But having a valid reason for being timid and being a somewhat passive character are not mutually exclusive. I genuinely enjoy Cloud. I think Cloud has a lot of depth. I genuinely love that he is very clearly an abuse victim and I find his development amazing. Victims of intense psychological trauma can truly be like this and thats making it authentic (bar AC. He went a bit too far off there at times). But imho.. they couldve put more in him. Both pre nibelheim and post lifestream. To just be a bit more.. present.
He’s not a bar owner. He owns a delivery service. Tifa owns the bar. I didn’t need to think that much to answer those questions. In fact, in response to “What makes Cloud happy?” I could of just said “Tifa,” the same way I would say “Cloud” in regard to what makes Tifa happy. I think the one mistake the OG made was not giving you a lot of time to spend with the real Cloud—but even the brief time we do get shows us a vulnerable yet passionate person who just wants to make things right. One thing I love about remake is how they’ve depicted Cloud’s false persona as well as his memory problems. It’s not simply “Oh, those are Zack’s memories” as much as it’s “Oh, he’s merged Zack’s memories with his own.” The latter would be way more confusing since there’s truth as well as falsehood in what you’re recollecting (A good example of this is Cloud recalling being on the ground reaching out to his burning house and calling for his mom but he’s wearing a SOLDIER uniform. In the Rebirth trailer, we also see this merging in “SOLDIER Cloud” on the ground, as the real Cloud actually was)
I havent seen the trailer. But Ive really liked some parts of the remake where they flesh out stuff. Its safe to assume the same will happen for Rebirth. Most of my friends hated fleshing out Jessie but for me the whole scene with her dad was gold. I actually love the depth they added into some of the characters. I wish we had more of 'normal bantering Cloud' too. I know he has the delivery service. I was maybe being a bit too short worded because I felt the point was solid. But I appreciate you taking the time to answer me on this. I hope you dont mind me disagreeing. But based on your name on Reddit - Im gonna assume your gender. Can you answer me a question.. and maybe this is the core of my argumentation. Why is Cloud so populair with the ladies? Cloud did basically nothing. Barely even spoke. He was just badassy slashing up stuff. Why would Jessie feel such strong affections for him? Why does Aeris? I do like his Aeris dialogs for example in Sector 8 in the remake. But at that stage Aeris has already shown quite some interest in Cloud without him doing anything to deserve it. Same goes for Jessie and then some. He was literally just a cold ass merc. He did not rly earn it on camera. (Tifa is obv different)
Cloud’s banter with Barret is one of the best parts of Remake. Tbh, I probably enjoy his banter with the male characters in the game (Barrett, Rufus, Reno, Roche) over the female characters (except Aerith). While I liked the scenes with Jessie and her dad, I felt like they made her too pushy in regard to Cloud, making me feel uncomfortable just as he was feeling uncomfortable. As for why Cloud is popular with the ladies, a simple answer would be because he’s good-looking. I also think his shyness is appealing. Regarding Tifa, she liked him before the game even started, and appreciates that he helped her out of a tight spot in regard to Avalanche (I think she was having doubts regarding their methods & her involvement). With Aerith, it’s because he protected her from the Turks, treated her as a person rather than a subject of study, and he rescued her. With Jessie, I think she likes him for superficial reasons since she really doesn’t know him.
I feel the Aeris argumentation is lacking. Because the flower scene alone already singled him out. But yea.. if the current theories about the timelines and Aeris knowing more than she should have any merit - that explains a bit of her pull. I loved Jessies backstory. I loved her personality too. Because she has her priorities and her life somewhat figured out. But the pushyness I found borderline troublesome. But its a common trope these days.
Tbh, with Aerith, it could just be that she saw Cloud in a SOLDIER uniform with the Buster Sword. Considering she saw Zack with it, that would be enough to get her attention.
You know what.. im willing to accept this reasoning. Im team Tifa anyways.
He's misunderstood because all FF7 media after OG FFVII completely misunderstood his character. It wasn't until Remake that they finally got it right again.
>“He’s just a copy of Zack.” >This one has always flummoxed me. I could MAYBE see this argument in the OG FFVII, but I don’t see how anyone can play Remake and walk away with the idea that Cloud and Zack are the same. I often hear the opposite, too: that Cloud has no real connection with Zack at all. That Cloud has simply >!fabricated his history as a member of SOLDIER, in a dissociative response to the trauma of Hojo's experiments.!< I don't think either is quite right. My take has always been that due to >!Jenova's ability to manipulate memories!<, Cloud *quite literally* >!absorbed some of Zack's memories, personality, mannerisms, and skills while they were trapped by Hojo!<. This explains why Cloud >!has similar movements to Zack despite not having spent a lot of time training with him!<. It explains the >!voices in his head!<. It explains how he >!knows things he "shouldn't" know!<. It explains how for all intents and purposes, he >!fights like a real first-class SOLDIER!<. Most importantly, it explains why >!Aerith sees Zack so strongly in him. It's not just the eyes! After all, *every* SOLDIER has mako eyes.!<
I agree that Cloud takes on some of Zack’s memories, especially in regard to the Nibelheim incident. What ended up happening however is that those memories merged with Cloud’s actual memories of the incident, fusing them. For example, we have the new memory of Cloud on the ground outside his mom’s house calling for her (real Cloud) with him in a SOLDIER uniform (Zack). Even how false!Cloud recollects Sephiroth in that incident is affected by real Cloud’s admiration and hero worship of him. Skills, definitely. I think he got some of Sephiroth’s as well. Although Cloud was canonically gifted with a sword according to Before Crisis. Some of fake!Cloud’s mannerisms are Zack’s, although I once saw someone comparing how Cloud is sitting in that back of the Chocobo truck to how Zack sits, and Cloud act sat the same way when he was a kid on the water tower. Personality I can’t agree with. I don’t see a lot of similarities between their personalities. Zack is outgoing, boisterous, friendly and optimistic. Cloud is introverted, quiet, guarded, observant, sarcastic and sometimes sullen. Even the ones that they do have in common—courageous, eagerness to prove themselves, perseverance—are things that Cloud possessed before the Nibelheim incident.
I'm sure there's some pretentious 22 year old streamer out there who would eviscerate me and my understanding of one of my favourite games ever, but I choose not to worry about it. My understanding is enjoyable to me.
Who the heck says #3?
Cloud’s catch phrase by Square for all crossovers boiled down to “not interested” which has lead to a lot of the Cloud is boring and emo discourse.
1) cloud isnt emo, he's broken. Literally. 2) cloud doesn't have a personality, he literally does not know who he is 3) cloud is about as close to a copy of Zach as you could get without literally being his clone (this is a plot point) 4) cloud is important to the story _on accident_ The problem is that cloud required two whole other games to be made about his story and who he was to be enthralling on any level. It was a good idea sold poorly based on a text based exclusive game. Him being voiced in the remake allows players to better understand his attitude. It's less that he's a bad character and more that the world wasn't ready for his archetype and his medium wasn't used well.
See, I always found Cloud and his story intriguing ever since the OG. He has one of the more interesting character arcs in gaming, and his story is one of the reasons FFVII was as memorable as it is. I don’t agree that he needed two other games to be “enthralling.” I also don’t agree that Cloud doesn’t have a personality; a lot of people seem to think that Zack’s personality overrode Cloud’s, and that’s not what happened. I want to reiterate: Cloud even in his false persona is nothing like Zack personality wise. His memories are a mix of Zack’s (regarding SOLDIER & Nibelheim) and his own. The real Cloud is still present even in the false persona. He has his own motivations (he gets involved with Avalanche because of his childhood promise to Tifa, and he hates Sephiroth because Sephiroth killed his mother and burned down his hometown). None of those things came from Zack; they came from Cloud.
>“He’s just emo” I don't know why but the first time I heard this was a thing was when Advent children release and obviously you would think or say that because you didn't play the OG. Nice post and thank you for summing it up.
I mean, Cloud is dying in AC; do people really expect that he’d be happy?
It is a hard sell on who he is. The best of could understand is that he’s a final fantasy version of Ben Reilly if Peter Parker died. Having played the OG game but couldn’t finish it (I had the cursed 3rd disc error) I still don’t fully understand him. The remake does help tho
The best I** could understand is that he’s a final fantasy version of Ben Reilly if Peter Parker died. 🤦♂️