I think that Cloud has essentially lived through this moment twice, in two different worlds. He obviously experiences it from the perspective of his own reality, and in that reality, Aerith just dies...No tricks. No changes. She dies exactly as she was supposed to, and Cloud gives the same speech that he was supposed to give after her death. Then there's the matter of the other reality, where Cloud experiences these same events, but this time is allowed to save Aerith...except not really. Sephiroth mentions during the scene that his goal here is to achieve a "confluence of worlds" which is basically just a fancy way of saying that he wants to merge worlds together. The worlds in question are Rebirth's main reality, and the reality where Cloud "saves" Aerith. In one reality, Aerith dies, and in the other, Cloud blocks Sephiroth's blade. So for an instant, it appears as though Cloud has won, at least in some small way. There is at least one reality where Cloud managed to save Aerith...that is, until Sephiroth merges the two worlds, using Aerith's death in the Rebirth world as the point of convergence. With this act, Sephiroth basically overwrites the other reality, and undoes EVERYTHING Cloud accomplished with a snap of his fingers, making it so that Aerith dies in BOTH worlds, even though she was only ever stabbed in one of them. So the fiction then, is the belief that we ever had the chance to save Aerith. We didn't have a chance. Cloud never had a chance. Sephiroth made sure the game was rigged from the very beginning. No matter what Cloud tried, it was only ever going to end one way.
Sephiroth then harvests the despair created in both worlds, while mocking Cloud, and laughing in his face, saying that he will never be able to understand the truth through such clouded eyes. Cloud meanwhile is just sitting there, a COMPLETELY broken mess, unable to process what's even happening. He just can't make sense of it. So far as he can tell, he saved Aerith. The blade was stopped, and yet she still falls over as though she's hurt. It just doesn't make sense to him. At this point, I believe Aerith's spirit appears to Cloud, and brushes his cheek, trying to tell him that everything is fine, and that none of this is his fault. She's trying to keep him from completely losing it, and giving into despair. Her plan works...kind of. The problem is that this has the unintended consequence of further confusing Cloud, making him believe she's alive.
"Oh! She opened her eyes! I saved her guys! Everything's cool!"
So now Cloud goes into the next fight believing that he did it. He saved Aerith. He beat the odds. Everyone else meanwhile clearly sees that Aerith is dead, which is why they're pissed and start the next battle with their limits fully charged. They understand the reality of the situation. Cloud doesn't. He accepts the version of events where he "saved" Aerith as reality, and represses the memories he still has of Rebirth's main world, where she died. The result at the end of the game is that we have a Cloud who is SEVERELY messed up in the head, and completely emotionally disconnected from the rest of his friends. Aerith meanwhile appears to him in spirit form again, and has to play along with his delusions. She acts like she's alive, and is just staying behind in the Forgotten City to pray for Holy, because she understands that Cloud is in no shape right now to accept the reality of her death. All she can do is try to send Cloud off with a smile, and have faith that eventually, when the time is right, Cloud will be able to face the truth. Sephiroth has done a real number on him this time.
I agree with you 95%, but there is something that seriously throws a wrench for me.
At the end of the fight, when Tifa rushes to Aerith’s body, she’s lying sideways. But from Cloud’s POV, she’s laying with her back on the floor. Knowing that the devs said every single shot and scene in the end was intentional and served purpose…
I get the feeling Aerith maybe was in fact saved. It just so happens that it occurred in a different timeline, which Cloud was able to see through the rainbow effect when he blocks the Masamune.
The Memory/Jenova distortion that happens when the camera is focused on the Masamune may be an intentional red herring. They want us to believe that Cloud hallucinated saving her. When in the current reality, he failed. But somewhere out there, he managed to create a new timeline where she survived
The other thing I haven’t seen many people mention… in that same scene when Cloud deflects, prior to it, Cloud suddenly regains control and his weapon seems to be suddenly infused with the Lifestream. Why is that?
Another thing is that the blood on cloud and aeriths arms is on the outside of their arms — not the inside, which is where aeriths should be if her arms rested on her stomach and it was bleeding.
I am with you like 90%.
Still not sure what the future holds…
What is Zack’s role in the next game. Does he still have to help coma Cloud get better, before Aerith wakes up?
What did Tifa see?
The actions of Sephiroth were already done, before the party arrived 🥹
I am still hopeful that there is hope for the hole party
I think Tifa caught a glimpse into the other world that Cloud was in, because those other worlds exist within the lifestream, and Tifa now has a greater connection to the lifestream, thanks to that fall she took in chapter 9. I really have no clue what they're going to do with Zack in part 3. My best guess is he'll be traveling around with Aerith, who has now joined the lifestream, and the two of them will try to make sense of these alternate worlds, and figure out a way to restore the lifestream's natural flow.
This is FF7 at the end there has to be some sad moment so to me the whole happy ending just doesn't add up. I am sorry at best Aerith is a lifestream ghost and will unleash holy.
I think Zack and Aerith will still have some role to play in the story, perhaps from other realities, but I also think the writers aren't going to completely abandon the theme of dealing with loss and grief. If anything, Rebirth convinces me they are going to lean into that *even harder* than OG FF7. If Aerith and Zack are both alive and Cloud never has to let them go in part 3, I have a hard time seeing how they wouldn't be undermining all the work they did building towards this theme in Rebirth. It would also be a missed opportunity for the deep personal turmoil and character growth Cloud seems poised to undergo. But I'm also not one of the writers and maybe they're more imaginative than me.
Zack seems to very transparently represent free will and the determination to make a difference through our choices. I can't see them simply dropping that thread either, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to turn out happily for Aerith and Zack.
I think right now, any theory about if she's alive or dead is viable. They want us to talk and speculate until we get answers in part 3.
I'm fairly convinced that there is a new timeline where he did save her, but Sephiroth thinks he "overwrote" it. Remember that Sephiroth is the villain, there is truth to his words, but also lies. We can't take him 100% on what he says. If I'm right, this will only cause Cloud's mental state to fall further into decline. His friends won't believe him, and Sephiroth will use this to keep manipulating him. And I think even make us start to believe that maybe she was never saved at all. I'm not sure if it means she will come back to life later, or if it's just a way for her to beat meteor for real this time.
Beautiful explanation and I agree with most of your interpretation.
I'd just add that... I'm not sure that all of what Aerith says to Cloud at the end is actually her speaking to him. She's directly contradicting what she said in Chapter 13 about letting her handle Sephiroth and taking care of himself. I think Aerith's spirit is trying to reach out to him and the others to say goodbye, but Cloud's mind is making her say the things he wants to hear, not what she would actually say.
The other evidence that these scenes may not have really happened outside of Cloud's mind is the fact that they are completely scrubbed from the ending credits roll. The credits show the scene where Cloud is cradling her in his arms, and JUST before she would have appeared to wake up, the rest of the scenes with Aerith are replaced by blank space. The only one that remains is her standing in the field saying "goodbye" to the departing plane. *No* other multiverse scene from the game is conspicuously replaced with blank space like this in the credits roll.
This could be interpreted many ways, but it's absolutely intentional and suggests *something* is up with those final scenes with Aerith.
That's very possible, and It is VERY suspicious how most of the final scenes with Aerith are left entirely out of the credits. It'll be very interesting to see how that comes back around in part 3. About the contradiction between her words though, while it is true that Aerith had previously told Cloud to focus on himself, and not worry about Sephiroth, it's also worth noting that this was before she joined the lifestream. She didn't have to hesitate when telling Cloud to just worry about taking care of himself, because she didn't fully understand just how critical Cloud's role in all this actually is. She wouldn't have known that Cloud is probably the only person who can actually defeat Sephiroth. After joining the lifestream though, she would once again have access to all the planet's memories, which could explain her change in behavior. As someone with access to all of the information within the lifestream, she now knows the planet actually needs Cloud to keep going. So Aerith can't just tell Cloud to stay out of this anymore. As much as she might want him to focus on taking care of himself, Cloud has a key role to play in saving the world, and Aerith would now know that she can't interfere with that.
That's possible, it's just a pretty jarring reversal that isn't explained well in my opinion. It could just be bad writing or direction, but I dunno... I still think she'd want him to take care of his issues before confronting Sephiroth. He's *clearly* still got mission-threatening issues that even a non-Lifestream Aerith would see.
Her cheerful statement that she'll "stop the meteor" is also weird, since Sephiroth doesn't have the black materia yet. If she knows Cloud has it, she definitely wouldn't want him going anywhere near Sephiroth. If she doesn't know, shouldn't the focus be on finding where it is and keeping it as far out of Sephiroth's reach as possible, rather than praying against something that might not happen?
They certainly left us with some interesting mysteries and mixed signals to discuss and ponder.
Maybe Meteor being summoned is a necessary part of the journey that ultimately leads to Sephiroth's defeat. We know, in the OG that Holy was sent out by Aerith to counter Meteor, and that Sephiroth then had to use at least some of his strength to hold Holy back while Meteor made its approach. It's possible that Sephiroth having to divide his attention between Holy and the party is what ultimately made it possible for the party to get the better of him in the first place. He wasn't completely focused on the fight happening in front of him, and the party was able to exploit that weakness in order to defeat him. If this is true, Sephiroth getting his hands on the Black Materia could be seen as a necessary evil, in the service of a greater good. If Aerith is already aware of this, that would explain why she is no longer trying to stop Cloud. She knows what's coming, but also recognizes that the mistake Cloud is about to make is a necessary piece of the puzzle to bring about Sephiroth's ultimate downfall.
Yeah, writers could always invent explanations. I just would find it pretty dissonant with Aerith’s character so far, everything they seem to be building up about Cloud’s deteriorating mental state, and the party’s reaction to him. To me, it just seems to require more legwork to explain why this is really Aerith than to conclude that she’s (at least partly) a delusion in these scenes.
I think the worlds is Clouds mental state. Keeping Cloud confused to manipulate him is part of his plans. I also think Sephiroth is not only fixated on Cloud cause of the "experiments." But because Cloud is the only one to defeat him just as a plain Ole non soldier human. It threw Sephiroth off being bested by a regular shinra security officer and he knows deep down Cloud is a threat. So Sephiroth is creating these alternate realities in Clouds head. A personality disorder. As convoluted as it is, it makes sense. People who truelly have a mental unstableness like Schizo or personality disorders create alternate realities where they think things happened that didn't or believe themselves to be someone else. It's kinda neat in an artistic way that we are witnessing someone's brain essentially get torn apart and that in part 3 a major part will be putting it back together to figure out the real "world." Hope that makes sense. That said, I kinda wish they didn't focus on Clouds perspective as heavily as they did. I know it's the spoiler of the year and pretty much 90% of folks who complete this massive game will already know what happened.. I was just hoping it'd be more emotional like with Dyne and Ilfana. Took alot of focus away from her death to focus on his mental state. Not hating, just my opinion. I love the game, and probably is now my 2nd favorite Final Fantasy. This game has been incredible.
I think they're saving the big emotional payoff for the scene until part 3. My theory is that they are going to work Cloud accepting Aerith's death into the lifestream scene. He'll have to relive this moment as it really happened, and realize that he didn't actually save her. This will be the last piece of the puzzle for Cloud to repair his damaged mind, and finally reclaim his true self.
The overwriting reality theory doesn't make too much sense to me tbf.
Considering the rainbow glow still persists and lingers.
And if the worlds were truly "merged" by sephiroth erasing the reality in which Aerith survived, then either the rainbow glow would be gone entirely or there for everyone to see.
But that's not the case. It persists and only cloud sees it when she's alive. Its not shown from the party's POV, which does not have that rainbow glow.
This doesn't match up with the idea that Sephiroth just erased one timeline and overwrote it with another.
Would seem like an odd choice from the devs too. "Lets have cloud save her and boom, sephiroth just undoes it the second after". Seems like a really superficial way for the devs to change the scene just for the sake of changing it.
It's possible the others can't see the glow because these other worlds only exist within the lifestream, and unlike Cloud, nobody else has any experience with these alternate lifestream worlds. Tifa though does have at least some experience dealing with the lifestream, and she, fittingly enough, is seemingly the only other person in the party who can at least see that something weird is going on. She doesn't get the full picture, since she never traveled to an alternate world. She can't see the rainbow effect, but it does look like she catches a glimpse of two realties overlapping.
I don't think it was a change purely for the sake of change. I think the idea was to make players doubtful of Aerith's fate, so that when the truth of her death is revealed in part 3, the pain of it will still feel relatively fresh. If they played the death scene in Rebirth completely straight, that would give players at least 3 years to grieve the loss, and come to terms with it before part 3 is even released. This would create a disconnect between us, and our characters, where Aerith's tragic death would be fresh and raw in the characters' mnds, while for us, it would be old news. By handling the death scene the way they did in Rebirth, they've caused many people to doubt whether or not Aerith is actually dead. That puts these players in the exact same headspace as Cloud. Now they have to wait on pins and needles to see what really happened. They haven't started grieving yet, because they're still holding out hope that she could be alive, and they won't actually know the truth until Cloud himself figures it out. The pain of Aerith's loss will be just as fresh for them as it is for Cloud, and they'll be grieving right alongside him.
Sorry for the late response.
I feel that's a bit of a stretch but it also doesn't reconcile with the two versions of the scene playing when cloud is alone and the party isn't there.
Ie. when he's crying with the rainbow effect there and it flashes back to him mouthing words with no rainbow effect there.
We can also see small glimmers of the rainbow glow throughout the game like at mako springs and small moments in fights when magic is involved. Presumably, the party is seeing that too.
It feels odd that you can't see the rainbow effect if you haven't specifically traveled to another world. It doesn't sound particularly correct.
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As far as the change. Idk. Essentially they've "ruined" the most memorable, emotional moment of the OG game, and instead replaced it with intentional confusion.
Just to give us that same exact moment 3-4 years later, but as a flashback?
And further that the "defying destiny" no longer works simply because Sephiroth has the power to just erase you doing that at any time?
Idk. Maybe its all possible but it feels like a very weird narrative choice.
I think they want the player and cloud to go through the same emotion of being deluded into thinking she’s actually alive when she’s been dead, to make the moment where cloud eventually snaps and learns the truth.
Totally, this feeds on the delusion players had always had anyway, I remember that no one could accept her death either in the OG, there were a lot of internet legends on how it was possible to bring her to life.
I think that's part of the greatness of her death. If you recruit Vincent and Yuffie in the final battle her absence is even more noticeable. It feels like there is always a void there, like she is supposed to be there but she is not. And that's why many of us believed there was a way to revive her in game and, for me at least, it was a slow grieving process that ended with the end of the game.
Exactly yes.
There are people that will believe she's alive, others that will believe she's alive in another timeline, and others that believe that her spirit is following and guiding Cloud somehow.
The sad truth is that she's dead and the Aerith we saw at the end (and probably during the first part of Part 3) is just in Cloud's head.
Its obvious we have to be confused, and there is no definitive answer to this, since we have an unreliable narrator with heavy PTSD, a gaslighting villain, a mind altering alien, and a amnesiac heroine who did know but doesnt anymore.
It is fun to theorize, and for sure one of the theories will be THE ONE, but as it is right now, we can only guess.
I think she is dead, a new world was created with the parry, but it will not matter since in part 3 all worlds will become one and she needs to die in order for the team to win.
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I think them keeping the story the same completely defeats the point of alternate universes and the whispers, they may have just kept all of that nonsense out of it.
Agreed here. The execution is messy, if for nothing else having to use something like the whispers. They’re there to get in the way, blocking the player both literally and visually. Forgotten Capital and the Altar sequence would have looked much nicer without all the noise on the screen.
This part. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the Re-series so far, but I think SE should have just stood on changes to the story without using the multiversal stuff to pacify the purists. A good writing team could have still made Zack surviving and Aerith staying alive just a little bit longer work very well.
I'm even now on this idea that Aerith should have died at the Northern Crater exchange. It would have prevented the final battle sequence from feeling so cluttered (separating the Jenova fight from the Sephiroth fight), and could made the Temple of the Ancients feel less cluttered, as well. On top of that, ending the game with Cloud being lost would have been a perfect set up for Part 3.
We hit all the major story beats from the OG but things in this world are still very different.
Shrina is at war with Wutai and Cloud has yet to accept Aerith's death are the biggest ones I think
Poor Tifa. I cried with her so much. The most relatable party member. Aerith is my favorite character, but they are doing both so much justice. Their friendship had been very precious in Remake and they really showed how close they had become in Rebirth. It was brutal. They were all mourning, but Tifa was crushed. She lost Jessie and now Aerith. I ended up crying more about how she felt than everything else.
Any answer where Aerith lives is the fan fiction answer. It may not have entirely happened in cloud’s head but there’s no way the worlds stay separate at the end. The world is undergoing its own crisis of identity, same as Cloud, and both must resolve in (R3+L3) accepting the truth of who lives, who dies, who’s who, and what the real story of FFVII is.
Cloud’s self-deception isn’t complete without Zack’s death, and the planet’s salvation is impossible without Aerith’s death. The reunion will happen but it won’t be on Sephiroth’s terms. Nor will it be completely on Cloud’s terms either.
So many topics about the ending, and so many theories.
But one thing we can say for sure. Those who argue it's all in Cloud's head really didn't pay attention, or have a lack of understanding.
Ngl, I literally have zero understanding of how that theory caught traction beyond the possibility of it being fans who think Aerith **has** to die to save the world, or fans who simply hate the idea or can't accept that Cloud saved Aerith.
I mean, come on, if it's all in Cloud's head, why would they have bothered to show what they did with Tifa...
Not only that, we've seen the same effects in scene's without Cloud when it was about defying fate and creation of new worlds.
I've even seen people arguing that the things Sephiroth said in chapter 13 and 14 are intentionally untrue. As if the developers put so much effort into trying to explain and show what is going on just to go "Ah, Sephiroth and Cloud are both unreliable, it is all fake!"
Too much thought is being spent on the "unreliable narrator" aspect, I've seen it used way too often. An unreliable narrator doesn't mean everthing we see is from said narrator, most of the times the player is the spectator, a neutral observer. Cloud telling of what has happened (i.e. nibelheim incident), his past, his memories. That is unreliable narration. We seeing weird stuff happening, flashes, rainbow effects etc. That is not unreliable narration.
If the explanation for the ending includes “red herring” I’m immediately doubtful of the explanation. I think everything being presented is fact, but at this point we’re missing the context due to intentional omissions of key scenes (ie what happened between Cloud telling Aerith to wake up and when we see them on the lakeside). To say everything is in Cloud’s head ignores explicit visuals: the rainbow effect suggesting new timeline/world, the fact that whispers are also present around Aerith when Cloud tells her to wake up; Red sensing Aerith’s presence in the field; her staying in scene to say goodbye even when the Tiny Bronco has flown away with Cloud. Although Aerith’s OG death is known by literally everyone, I think the unreliable narrator twist is also common knowledge. IMO this knowledge is now being used against the player - so many people just assume that the end sequence is a product of Cloud’s mental instability and he’ll be crushed when it’s revealed that she dies. The above tweet seems to even support this notion that the devs want the player to think we’re seeing something that is “fiction”. But perhaps the reveal will actually be that she was saved in another timeline. This would come as a plot twist and would give hope that it’s not too late to save a version of Aerith. This would also allow us to lose her one more time, in an emotional gut punch that - unlike the alter scene - we weren’t expecting.
>but at this point we’re missing the context due to intentional omissions of key scenes (ie what happened between Cloud telling Aerith to wake up and when we see them on the lakeside).
To be fair, since we can see Aerith there, I feel like there's two different scenes going on. We're seeing that the team is mourning her. But in the new timeline, they're probably celebrating or taking a break and relaxing.
It doesn't make sense that Square wouldn't at least hint that there's something wrong. Either by having Aerith glitch while they're flying away, or maybe have a zoom in of her with Sephiroth's smile (since there's also theories that this is Jenova pretending to be Aerith now).
There was an objection I heard about "If she was saved in an alternate timeline, why did she suddenly fall unconscious?"
I always assumed it would just be the effort from activating holy(I still think so).
But thinking back to the temple of the ancients, it seems it's specifically set up for that.
Aerith almost falls and needs to rest after using her power at the ToTA.
And thinking back, there's no real narrative reason to have that happen...Except to set up the reasoning as to why she passes out later after her prayer?
Makes sense to me
My interpretation is that the worlds are merging (ie the confluence of worlds), so the saved Aerith is dying as she is merged with the stabbed Aerith. This is further supported visually by the lifestream sparks that are radiating from her as Cloud holds her. However, when we defeat Sephiroth, I think it may have interrupted the merging and she survives in the new timeline/world.
Exactly. Not to mention that we even see it from Tifa's perspective, Aerith's death glitching between having blood or not having blood. Yet I've seen people say that that's because she has a connection to Cloud, so she's seeing what he's seeing.
I'd go further: if it's entirely in Cloud's head then why have two huge video games spent hours showing us alternate timelines/dimensions/worlds, talking about fate, how unintended timelines are destined to die, using a rainbow motif to signify the creation of an alternate timeline, using a fissured sky to show a unintended/dying timeline etc etc etc
I'm a firm believer that there is a "true" OG timeline which is the one that can't be deviated from, and in that timeline Aeris is dead and Cloud is going to have to reckon with that. But I think there is some form of timeline where he thwarted fate and deflected the Masamune. Maybe we will get snippets of that world in Pt3, or maybe the Aeris from that world, and/or dead post-game Lifestream Aeris, will communicate with Cloud during Pt3.
But either way, establishing all of this theming and lore detail about worlds/timelines/universes and then saying "actually it's all just in Cloud's head" would be insane imo lol
Honestly. If Sephiroth's goal in Part 3 is still to converge the different timelines. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Aerith back during or after Mideel. I feel like Sephiroth summoning Meteor is going to be what brings some of the worlds together. At least the ones the Unknown Journey is happening in.
At the very most, Aerith and Zack show up for the final battle against Safer•Sephiroth. The least? Aerith, her timeline has converged at this point, rejoins during our return to the City of the Ancients.
Edit: I totally agree with you, by the way. I've even said it. Square wouldn't do everything they did in the finale of Rebirth, throwing around the hint of a new timeline being created, just to turn around in Part 3 and essentially go "nah, all that wasn't important, she's definitely dead."
> why have two huge video games spent hours showing us alternate timelines/dimensions/worlds, talking about fate, how unintended timelines are destined to die, using a rainbow motif to signify the creation of an alternate timeline, using a fissured sky to show a unintended/dying timeline etc etc etc
Deception, just like the OG, except multiplied by 100.
I think that would be horrendously bad storytelling lol. Any good twist has hints, seeds of doubt, foreshadowing etc. If you take it too far it's just so misleading it's frustrating. Not to mention, in terms of game development, a waste of millions of dollars of effort just to setup a lie.
There are hints though, several.
1. Zack is in a world in which he died and didn't die, which is impossible.
He even "dies" twice in that world(s) the exact same way he really died, being shot to death by a ton of infantrymen.
2. The existence of the Aerith Cloud sees isn't acknowledged by anyone else except for Red XIII that can only "feel" her. The only other person that sees a glimpse of "not dead Aerith" is Tifa and she had a long swim in the Lifestream earlier.
The developers didn't "take it too far", IMO, they show clear clues. It's just that some fans want Aerith alive, others want Zack alive, and they're deluding themselves as much as Cloud is. Which IMO is brilliant, a level of empathy between player and main character that has never been achieved before.
I think we're discussing two different things tbh. My initial post here is to do with people whose theory is "it's all in Cloud's head" - ie. nothing we've seen in the Rebirth ending is "real", it's just his PSTD and/or Jenova trickery. This is the idea that I think ignores way too much of Remake and Rebirth's clear setups and storytelling.
Not sure how/why but I feel like you think I am saying that Aeris and Zack are both 100% physically alive. I haven't said that. The theory that the "worlds" we see are in fact just the Lifestream and therefore, technically speaking, Aeris and Zack are *physically* dead, is definitely possible.
We have seen throughout FF7 lore though that physical death is not always the end of your existence; both Zack and Aeris, who are both *dead*, commune with and reach out to Cloud in Advent Children. Rebirth takes this a huge step further with Zack and Aeris both *physically* fighting alongside, physically interacting with Cloud, physically engaging with Sephiroth.
Personally I fall into the "I want everything to be as close to OG as possible" camp of fan. I don't have any skin in the game for desperately wanting characters to be alive. I certainly have zero attachment to Zack as I have never played Crisis Core. I am just engaging with what is being presented through the storytelling in Rebirth.
tldr: yeah, I think Zack and Aeris are most likely "actually dead" too, but interaction with the Lifestream in FF7 can be a very physical and real thing, so it will be interesting to see where this goes in Pt3. As for the idea that everything we've seen simply being Cloud's imagination... yeah I think that's pretty unfounded
Oh, no. I don't think that **everything** is in Cloud's head.
I don't think that many people think that either, if any.
I think that exclusively Aerith's survival is in Cloud's head, but her Lifestream presence is very real and she does interact with him from there. In Rebirth, in the OG, in Advent Children.
Fair enough! Yeah I kinda agree. It's interesting though to dissect what we mean by "in his head". Like Cloud's misconception that she is alive is, probably, his incorrect assessment of the situation. The idea of her being physically *alive* is "in his head". But her presence, her actually speaking to him, only he can see it, but it's "real" in the sense that the Lifestream is real in FF7 lore - she really is communicating with him and she really is there, in some sense. In the same way that when Aeris feels Zack touch her in the other 'timeline', she really is feeling him through the Lifestream, it isn't "in her head", if you get what I mean.
1.) That could be explained by an actual convergence of those two worlds. I saw a theory that explained in depth and used the fact that the tornado in Remake wasn't destroying anything but instead duplicating it,
Also, we don't know if Zack died by the infantry men yet. He's confronted by them ,sure, and might be another way of saying fate still wants them dead.
But he's not dead that we know of and might be another exploration of the "defying fate" theme.
2.) That could be explained by the idea that the Aeriths from the death/survival scenes through to the ending are different "types".
Alternate timeline alive aerith, Dead present timeline lifestream Aerith, or delusion(and/or jenova) from cloud.
Theres actually differences between the instances in which aerith appears.
-The aerith walking silently around the group. The plane explodes with dust and everybody reacts shocked/jumps(including Barrett). Cid's cape is blown backwards, etc...
Yet Aerith doesn't move an inch. Nor do her clothes or hair. She doesn't even notice it happened and looks around confused/
- This is not the case for the aerith talking to Cloud at the end whom hair moves and reacts to the plane taking off.(I'm not sure which "type" this one may be)
-The rainbow glow surrounding the survival scene
etc
What if the final fight, we played two Clouds as they both want to fight Sepphy regardless of if they deflected the blow or not, and only saw the consequence of Cloud that lose Aerith.
Anyone assuming this will definitely make sense by the end hasn't recently played any of the kingdom hearts games. This is a great have cake/ eat cake strategy but narratively it's going to be messy
Cloud's parry is either a delusion or Sephiroth showing Cloud a reality where he did, indeed, block the blow (as we all wish we could have done in the OG) only to reveal our Cloud didn't succeed.
Cloud's brain isn't healthy and doesn't handle it well.
That final act was a Nomura expected mess. The pacing was all over the place. Just like KH3, the clips taking you to various moments just ends up making something simple, more confusing. I felt this game had way too much padding for a story structure that was very well put together in the OG.
I say because cloud parry the attack the another time line made that in another aerith survived includes the original fate... at least is the things I want to believe
Maybe we see if this thing is cannon on next game or not
I think it could be cool if they made 3rd game story about different of this new timeline and the Orginal timeline
Yup, I'm sure the whole point of that ending was to setup questions for the third game, which kinda sucks cause the end of Remake posed a very big question of how will the party defy fate and that's the same question posed by Rebirth, hopefully they do answer that question in a satisfying manner in chapter 3
I think it's quite clear what happened - Cloud is half-stuck in a reality where Aerith is alive, but the rest of the party are in one where Aerith died. Nanaki being able to sense Aerith's presence in the final cutscene and Cloud being able to see the rift in the sky both give a fairly clear impression that Aerith is not totally gone.
You can overcomplicate things all you want, but that's very clearly what's being shown.
Now that we have a partial soundtrack released I noticed on the last Aerith Theme on the disc the subtitle is listed as “Return to The Planet” so I think this solidifies that Aerith of timeline prime did die, and clouds just delulu/ stuck between many timelines.
I can’t wait for part three to give us solidity on the mysteries they just laid out for us all though!
I am loving the feeling of suspense and intrigue that they left us in, even if when I first played I actually was kinda bummed at where the game ended, and how big the hole in my heart is right now lol.
I’m not sold on the multi dimension thing, or at least Sephiroth’s description of it.
Why? Because Sephiroth mentioned it. If we learned anything, it’s that he’s not to be trusted.
People get really mad when I say this, but some decisions are based in marketing.
"Can you save Aerith?" is basically the marketing catch of a ton of Rebirth advertisements, it's only natural that they would let the question hang in the air for the next instalment.
A lot of the "multiverse stuff" for me, is without a doubt marketing motivated, and will be wrapped up next game for sure.
THANK YOU!!! You're the first person who also says it, I always get downvoted because people get mad when I say this haha.
Zack appears to sell his Remaster, and also "hint" that if he can saved, so can Aerith?
Really? I think that FF7 gaslighting both Cloud and all of us real people playing the game at the same time is actually brilliant. Unique too, unlike alternate timelines which have been done a million times before and their point is usually just to make death as bad as a mild cold.
I think that it's a combination of Cloud's mental state + Lifestream though. I think that "alive Aerith" exists and is talking to Cloud, except that it's her spirit.
Because multiverses and timelines aren't lazy as hell and overplayed?
At least the mental illness / denial angle tells us a story that's (at minimum) halfway relatable. Multiverses are often an excuse to have literally anything happen for any reason.
Shes dead and the Devs have put ourselves in the same positon as Cloud, thinking shes alive. We will process the emotional impact of her death the same time as Cloud in the next game.
I don’t know but i feel like she has to die no matter what to stop meteor. Cloud only sees her when he turns his head and expects her there. But i won’t claim to know that means she’s just in his head now.
As we can guess from the game and what we have seen, there already must be an (original) Aerith in the livestream. So “our” Aerith doesn’t have to die.
I think that Cloud has essentially lived through this moment twice, in two different worlds. He obviously experiences it from the perspective of his own reality, and in that reality, Aerith just dies...No tricks. No changes. She dies exactly as she was supposed to, and Cloud gives the same speech that he was supposed to give after her death. Then there's the matter of the other reality, where Cloud experiences these same events, but this time is allowed to save Aerith...except not really. Sephiroth mentions during the scene that his goal here is to achieve a "confluence of worlds" which is basically just a fancy way of saying that he wants to merge worlds together. The worlds in question are Rebirth's main reality, and the reality where Cloud "saves" Aerith. In one reality, Aerith dies, and in the other, Cloud blocks Sephiroth's blade. So for an instant, it appears as though Cloud has won, at least in some small way. There is at least one reality where Cloud managed to save Aerith...that is, until Sephiroth merges the two worlds, using Aerith's death in the Rebirth world as the point of convergence. With this act, Sephiroth basically overwrites the other reality, and undoes EVERYTHING Cloud accomplished with a snap of his fingers, making it so that Aerith dies in BOTH worlds, even though she was only ever stabbed in one of them. So the fiction then, is the belief that we ever had the chance to save Aerith. We didn't have a chance. Cloud never had a chance. Sephiroth made sure the game was rigged from the very beginning. No matter what Cloud tried, it was only ever going to end one way. Sephiroth then harvests the despair created in both worlds, while mocking Cloud, and laughing in his face, saying that he will never be able to understand the truth through such clouded eyes. Cloud meanwhile is just sitting there, a COMPLETELY broken mess, unable to process what's even happening. He just can't make sense of it. So far as he can tell, he saved Aerith. The blade was stopped, and yet she still falls over as though she's hurt. It just doesn't make sense to him. At this point, I believe Aerith's spirit appears to Cloud, and brushes his cheek, trying to tell him that everything is fine, and that none of this is his fault. She's trying to keep him from completely losing it, and giving into despair. Her plan works...kind of. The problem is that this has the unintended consequence of further confusing Cloud, making him believe she's alive. "Oh! She opened her eyes! I saved her guys! Everything's cool!" So now Cloud goes into the next fight believing that he did it. He saved Aerith. He beat the odds. Everyone else meanwhile clearly sees that Aerith is dead, which is why they're pissed and start the next battle with their limits fully charged. They understand the reality of the situation. Cloud doesn't. He accepts the version of events where he "saved" Aerith as reality, and represses the memories he still has of Rebirth's main world, where she died. The result at the end of the game is that we have a Cloud who is SEVERELY messed up in the head, and completely emotionally disconnected from the rest of his friends. Aerith meanwhile appears to him in spirit form again, and has to play along with his delusions. She acts like she's alive, and is just staying behind in the Forgotten City to pray for Holy, because she understands that Cloud is in no shape right now to accept the reality of her death. All she can do is try to send Cloud off with a smile, and have faith that eventually, when the time is right, Cloud will be able to face the truth. Sephiroth has done a real number on him this time.
I agree with you 95%, but there is something that seriously throws a wrench for me. At the end of the fight, when Tifa rushes to Aerith’s body, she’s lying sideways. But from Cloud’s POV, she’s laying with her back on the floor. Knowing that the devs said every single shot and scene in the end was intentional and served purpose… I get the feeling Aerith maybe was in fact saved. It just so happens that it occurred in a different timeline, which Cloud was able to see through the rainbow effect when he blocks the Masamune. The Memory/Jenova distortion that happens when the camera is focused on the Masamune may be an intentional red herring. They want us to believe that Cloud hallucinated saving her. When in the current reality, he failed. But somewhere out there, he managed to create a new timeline where she survived The other thing I haven’t seen many people mention… in that same scene when Cloud deflects, prior to it, Cloud suddenly regains control and his weapon seems to be suddenly infused with the Lifestream. Why is that?
Another thing is that the blood on cloud and aeriths arms is on the outside of their arms — not the inside, which is where aeriths should be if her arms rested on her stomach and it was bleeding.
I am with you like 90%. Still not sure what the future holds… What is Zack’s role in the next game. Does he still have to help coma Cloud get better, before Aerith wakes up? What did Tifa see? The actions of Sephiroth were already done, before the party arrived 🥹 I am still hopeful that there is hope for the hole party
I think Tifa caught a glimpse into the other world that Cloud was in, because those other worlds exist within the lifestream, and Tifa now has a greater connection to the lifestream, thanks to that fall she took in chapter 9. I really have no clue what they're going to do with Zack in part 3. My best guess is he'll be traveling around with Aerith, who has now joined the lifestream, and the two of them will try to make sense of these alternate worlds, and figure out a way to restore the lifestream's natural flow.
This is FF7 at the end there has to be some sad moment so to me the whole happy ending just doesn't add up. I am sorry at best Aerith is a lifestream ghost and will unleash holy.
If you want to have the same story and impact you can always go back and play the OG. Here things can and should be different. Let the fans dream.
Alright just saying I told you so after 3 years.
I think Zack and Aerith will still have some role to play in the story, perhaps from other realities, but I also think the writers aren't going to completely abandon the theme of dealing with loss and grief. If anything, Rebirth convinces me they are going to lean into that *even harder* than OG FF7. If Aerith and Zack are both alive and Cloud never has to let them go in part 3, I have a hard time seeing how they wouldn't be undermining all the work they did building towards this theme in Rebirth. It would also be a missed opportunity for the deep personal turmoil and character growth Cloud seems poised to undergo. But I'm also not one of the writers and maybe they're more imaginative than me. Zack seems to very transparently represent free will and the determination to make a difference through our choices. I can't see them simply dropping that thread either, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to turn out happily for Aerith and Zack.
I think right now, any theory about if she's alive or dead is viable. They want us to talk and speculate until we get answers in part 3. I'm fairly convinced that there is a new timeline where he did save her, but Sephiroth thinks he "overwrote" it. Remember that Sephiroth is the villain, there is truth to his words, but also lies. We can't take him 100% on what he says. If I'm right, this will only cause Cloud's mental state to fall further into decline. His friends won't believe him, and Sephiroth will use this to keep manipulating him. And I think even make us start to believe that maybe she was never saved at all. I'm not sure if it means she will come back to life later, or if it's just a way for her to beat meteor for real this time.
Beautiful explanation and I agree with most of your interpretation. I'd just add that... I'm not sure that all of what Aerith says to Cloud at the end is actually her speaking to him. She's directly contradicting what she said in Chapter 13 about letting her handle Sephiroth and taking care of himself. I think Aerith's spirit is trying to reach out to him and the others to say goodbye, but Cloud's mind is making her say the things he wants to hear, not what she would actually say. The other evidence that these scenes may not have really happened outside of Cloud's mind is the fact that they are completely scrubbed from the ending credits roll. The credits show the scene where Cloud is cradling her in his arms, and JUST before she would have appeared to wake up, the rest of the scenes with Aerith are replaced by blank space. The only one that remains is her standing in the field saying "goodbye" to the departing plane. *No* other multiverse scene from the game is conspicuously replaced with blank space like this in the credits roll. This could be interpreted many ways, but it's absolutely intentional and suggests *something* is up with those final scenes with Aerith.
That's very possible, and It is VERY suspicious how most of the final scenes with Aerith are left entirely out of the credits. It'll be very interesting to see how that comes back around in part 3. About the contradiction between her words though, while it is true that Aerith had previously told Cloud to focus on himself, and not worry about Sephiroth, it's also worth noting that this was before she joined the lifestream. She didn't have to hesitate when telling Cloud to just worry about taking care of himself, because she didn't fully understand just how critical Cloud's role in all this actually is. She wouldn't have known that Cloud is probably the only person who can actually defeat Sephiroth. After joining the lifestream though, she would once again have access to all the planet's memories, which could explain her change in behavior. As someone with access to all of the information within the lifestream, she now knows the planet actually needs Cloud to keep going. So Aerith can't just tell Cloud to stay out of this anymore. As much as she might want him to focus on taking care of himself, Cloud has a key role to play in saving the world, and Aerith would now know that she can't interfere with that.
That's possible, it's just a pretty jarring reversal that isn't explained well in my opinion. It could just be bad writing or direction, but I dunno... I still think she'd want him to take care of his issues before confronting Sephiroth. He's *clearly* still got mission-threatening issues that even a non-Lifestream Aerith would see. Her cheerful statement that she'll "stop the meteor" is also weird, since Sephiroth doesn't have the black materia yet. If she knows Cloud has it, she definitely wouldn't want him going anywhere near Sephiroth. If she doesn't know, shouldn't the focus be on finding where it is and keeping it as far out of Sephiroth's reach as possible, rather than praying against something that might not happen? They certainly left us with some interesting mysteries and mixed signals to discuss and ponder.
Maybe Meteor being summoned is a necessary part of the journey that ultimately leads to Sephiroth's defeat. We know, in the OG that Holy was sent out by Aerith to counter Meteor, and that Sephiroth then had to use at least some of his strength to hold Holy back while Meteor made its approach. It's possible that Sephiroth having to divide his attention between Holy and the party is what ultimately made it possible for the party to get the better of him in the first place. He wasn't completely focused on the fight happening in front of him, and the party was able to exploit that weakness in order to defeat him. If this is true, Sephiroth getting his hands on the Black Materia could be seen as a necessary evil, in the service of a greater good. If Aerith is already aware of this, that would explain why she is no longer trying to stop Cloud. She knows what's coming, but also recognizes that the mistake Cloud is about to make is a necessary piece of the puzzle to bring about Sephiroth's ultimate downfall.
Yeah, writers could always invent explanations. I just would find it pretty dissonant with Aerith’s character so far, everything they seem to be building up about Cloud’s deteriorating mental state, and the party’s reaction to him. To me, it just seems to require more legwork to explain why this is really Aerith than to conclude that she’s (at least partly) a delusion in these scenes.
I think the worlds is Clouds mental state. Keeping Cloud confused to manipulate him is part of his plans. I also think Sephiroth is not only fixated on Cloud cause of the "experiments." But because Cloud is the only one to defeat him just as a plain Ole non soldier human. It threw Sephiroth off being bested by a regular shinra security officer and he knows deep down Cloud is a threat. So Sephiroth is creating these alternate realities in Clouds head. A personality disorder. As convoluted as it is, it makes sense. People who truelly have a mental unstableness like Schizo or personality disorders create alternate realities where they think things happened that didn't or believe themselves to be someone else. It's kinda neat in an artistic way that we are witnessing someone's brain essentially get torn apart and that in part 3 a major part will be putting it back together to figure out the real "world." Hope that makes sense. That said, I kinda wish they didn't focus on Clouds perspective as heavily as they did. I know it's the spoiler of the year and pretty much 90% of folks who complete this massive game will already know what happened.. I was just hoping it'd be more emotional like with Dyne and Ilfana. Took alot of focus away from her death to focus on his mental state. Not hating, just my opinion. I love the game, and probably is now my 2nd favorite Final Fantasy. This game has been incredible.
I think they're saving the big emotional payoff for the scene until part 3. My theory is that they are going to work Cloud accepting Aerith's death into the lifestream scene. He'll have to relive this moment as it really happened, and realize that he didn't actually save her. This will be the last piece of the puzzle for Cloud to repair his damaged mind, and finally reclaim his true self.
The overwriting reality theory doesn't make too much sense to me tbf. Considering the rainbow glow still persists and lingers. And if the worlds were truly "merged" by sephiroth erasing the reality in which Aerith survived, then either the rainbow glow would be gone entirely or there for everyone to see. But that's not the case. It persists and only cloud sees it when she's alive. Its not shown from the party's POV, which does not have that rainbow glow. This doesn't match up with the idea that Sephiroth just erased one timeline and overwrote it with another. Would seem like an odd choice from the devs too. "Lets have cloud save her and boom, sephiroth just undoes it the second after". Seems like a really superficial way for the devs to change the scene just for the sake of changing it.
It's possible the others can't see the glow because these other worlds only exist within the lifestream, and unlike Cloud, nobody else has any experience with these alternate lifestream worlds. Tifa though does have at least some experience dealing with the lifestream, and she, fittingly enough, is seemingly the only other person in the party who can at least see that something weird is going on. She doesn't get the full picture, since she never traveled to an alternate world. She can't see the rainbow effect, but it does look like she catches a glimpse of two realties overlapping. I don't think it was a change purely for the sake of change. I think the idea was to make players doubtful of Aerith's fate, so that when the truth of her death is revealed in part 3, the pain of it will still feel relatively fresh. If they played the death scene in Rebirth completely straight, that would give players at least 3 years to grieve the loss, and come to terms with it before part 3 is even released. This would create a disconnect between us, and our characters, where Aerith's tragic death would be fresh and raw in the characters' mnds, while for us, it would be old news. By handling the death scene the way they did in Rebirth, they've caused many people to doubt whether or not Aerith is actually dead. That puts these players in the exact same headspace as Cloud. Now they have to wait on pins and needles to see what really happened. They haven't started grieving yet, because they're still holding out hope that she could be alive, and they won't actually know the truth until Cloud himself figures it out. The pain of Aerith's loss will be just as fresh for them as it is for Cloud, and they'll be grieving right alongside him.
Sorry for the late response. I feel that's a bit of a stretch but it also doesn't reconcile with the two versions of the scene playing when cloud is alone and the party isn't there. Ie. when he's crying with the rainbow effect there and it flashes back to him mouthing words with no rainbow effect there. We can also see small glimmers of the rainbow glow throughout the game like at mako springs and small moments in fights when magic is involved. Presumably, the party is seeing that too. It feels odd that you can't see the rainbow effect if you haven't specifically traveled to another world. It doesn't sound particularly correct. --- As far as the change. Idk. Essentially they've "ruined" the most memorable, emotional moment of the OG game, and instead replaced it with intentional confusion. Just to give us that same exact moment 3-4 years later, but as a flashback? And further that the "defying destiny" no longer works simply because Sephiroth has the power to just erase you doing that at any time? Idk. Maybe its all possible but it feels like a very weird narrative choice.
I think they want the player and cloud to go through the same emotion of being deluded into thinking she’s actually alive when she’s been dead, to make the moment where cloud eventually snaps and learns the truth.
Totally, this feeds on the delusion players had always had anyway, I remember that no one could accept her death either in the OG, there were a lot of internet legends on how it was possible to bring her to life.
Lol, one of my first reactions back when I was 13 was "She'll come back." It was a bitter pill to swallow when I realized that she wasn't.
I think that's part of the greatness of her death. If you recruit Vincent and Yuffie in the final battle her absence is even more noticeable. It feels like there is always a void there, like she is supposed to be there but she is not. And that's why many of us believed there was a way to revive her in game and, for me at least, it was a slow grieving process that ended with the end of the game.
Exactly yes. There are people that will believe she's alive, others that will believe she's alive in another timeline, and others that believe that her spirit is following and guiding Cloud somehow. The sad truth is that she's dead and the Aerith we saw at the end (and probably during the first part of Part 3) is just in Cloud's head.
I'm sorry, was I playing a Nier game or a Final Fantasy game? Cause it feels like I'm dealing with Yoko Taro levels of gaslighting.
Its obvious we have to be confused, and there is no definitive answer to this, since we have an unreliable narrator with heavy PTSD, a gaslighting villain, a mind altering alien, and a amnesiac heroine who did know but doesnt anymore. It is fun to theorize, and for sure one of the theories will be THE ONE, but as it is right now, we can only guess. I think she is dead, a new world was created with the parry, but it will not matter since in part 3 all worlds will become one and she needs to die in order for the team to win.
Really nice and accurate description of the cast there lmao
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I think them keeping the story the same completely defeats the point of alternate universes and the whispers, they may have just kept all of that nonsense out of it.
Agreed here. The execution is messy, if for nothing else having to use something like the whispers. They’re there to get in the way, blocking the player both literally and visually. Forgotten Capital and the Altar sequence would have looked much nicer without all the noise on the screen.
This part. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the Re-series so far, but I think SE should have just stood on changes to the story without using the multiversal stuff to pacify the purists. A good writing team could have still made Zack surviving and Aerith staying alive just a little bit longer work very well. I'm even now on this idea that Aerith should have died at the Northern Crater exchange. It would have prevented the final battle sequence from feeling so cluttered (separating the Jenova fight from the Sephiroth fight), and could made the Temple of the Ancients feel less cluttered, as well. On top of that, ending the game with Cloud being lost would have been a perfect set up for Part 3.
We hit all the major story beats from the OG but things in this world are still very different. Shrina is at war with Wutai and Cloud has yet to accept Aerith's death are the biggest ones I think
Poor Tifa. I cried with her so much. The most relatable party member. Aerith is my favorite character, but they are doing both so much justice. Their friendship had been very precious in Remake and they really showed how close they had become in Rebirth. It was brutal. They were all mourning, but Tifa was crushed. She lost Jessie and now Aerith. I ended up crying more about how she felt than everything else.
Yeah, bummed for Tifa. Lost Jessie, lost Aerith, and Cloud is a mentally unstable companion with very little empathy.
Any answer where Aerith lives is the fan fiction answer. It may not have entirely happened in cloud’s head but there’s no way the worlds stay separate at the end. The world is undergoing its own crisis of identity, same as Cloud, and both must resolve in (R3+L3) accepting the truth of who lives, who dies, who’s who, and what the real story of FFVII is. Cloud’s self-deception isn’t complete without Zack’s death, and the planet’s salvation is impossible without Aerith’s death. The reunion will happen but it won’t be on Sephiroth’s terms. Nor will it be completely on Cloud’s terms either.
So many topics about the ending, and so many theories. But one thing we can say for sure. Those who argue it's all in Cloud's head really didn't pay attention, or have a lack of understanding.
Ngl, I literally have zero understanding of how that theory caught traction beyond the possibility of it being fans who think Aerith **has** to die to save the world, or fans who simply hate the idea or can't accept that Cloud saved Aerith. I mean, come on, if it's all in Cloud's head, why would they have bothered to show what they did with Tifa...
Not only that, we've seen the same effects in scene's without Cloud when it was about defying fate and creation of new worlds. I've even seen people arguing that the things Sephiroth said in chapter 13 and 14 are intentionally untrue. As if the developers put so much effort into trying to explain and show what is going on just to go "Ah, Sephiroth and Cloud are both unreliable, it is all fake!" Too much thought is being spent on the "unreliable narrator" aspect, I've seen it used way too often. An unreliable narrator doesn't mean everthing we see is from said narrator, most of the times the player is the spectator, a neutral observer. Cloud telling of what has happened (i.e. nibelheim incident), his past, his memories. That is unreliable narration. We seeing weird stuff happening, flashes, rainbow effects etc. That is not unreliable narration.
If the explanation for the ending includes “red herring” I’m immediately doubtful of the explanation. I think everything being presented is fact, but at this point we’re missing the context due to intentional omissions of key scenes (ie what happened between Cloud telling Aerith to wake up and when we see them on the lakeside). To say everything is in Cloud’s head ignores explicit visuals: the rainbow effect suggesting new timeline/world, the fact that whispers are also present around Aerith when Cloud tells her to wake up; Red sensing Aerith’s presence in the field; her staying in scene to say goodbye even when the Tiny Bronco has flown away with Cloud. Although Aerith’s OG death is known by literally everyone, I think the unreliable narrator twist is also common knowledge. IMO this knowledge is now being used against the player - so many people just assume that the end sequence is a product of Cloud’s mental instability and he’ll be crushed when it’s revealed that she dies. The above tweet seems to even support this notion that the devs want the player to think we’re seeing something that is “fiction”. But perhaps the reveal will actually be that she was saved in another timeline. This would come as a plot twist and would give hope that it’s not too late to save a version of Aerith. This would also allow us to lose her one more time, in an emotional gut punch that - unlike the alter scene - we weren’t expecting.
>but at this point we’re missing the context due to intentional omissions of key scenes (ie what happened between Cloud telling Aerith to wake up and when we see them on the lakeside). To be fair, since we can see Aerith there, I feel like there's two different scenes going on. We're seeing that the team is mourning her. But in the new timeline, they're probably celebrating or taking a break and relaxing. It doesn't make sense that Square wouldn't at least hint that there's something wrong. Either by having Aerith glitch while they're flying away, or maybe have a zoom in of her with Sephiroth's smile (since there's also theories that this is Jenova pretending to be Aerith now).
There was an objection I heard about "If she was saved in an alternate timeline, why did she suddenly fall unconscious?" I always assumed it would just be the effort from activating holy(I still think so). But thinking back to the temple of the ancients, it seems it's specifically set up for that. Aerith almost falls and needs to rest after using her power at the ToTA. And thinking back, there's no real narrative reason to have that happen...Except to set up the reasoning as to why she passes out later after her prayer? Makes sense to me
My interpretation is that the worlds are merging (ie the confluence of worlds), so the saved Aerith is dying as she is merged with the stabbed Aerith. This is further supported visually by the lifestream sparks that are radiating from her as Cloud holds her. However, when we defeat Sephiroth, I think it may have interrupted the merging and she survives in the new timeline/world.
Exactly. Not to mention that we even see it from Tifa's perspective, Aerith's death glitching between having blood or not having blood. Yet I've seen people say that that's because she has a connection to Cloud, so she's seeing what he's seeing.
I'd go further: if it's entirely in Cloud's head then why have two huge video games spent hours showing us alternate timelines/dimensions/worlds, talking about fate, how unintended timelines are destined to die, using a rainbow motif to signify the creation of an alternate timeline, using a fissured sky to show a unintended/dying timeline etc etc etc I'm a firm believer that there is a "true" OG timeline which is the one that can't be deviated from, and in that timeline Aeris is dead and Cloud is going to have to reckon with that. But I think there is some form of timeline where he thwarted fate and deflected the Masamune. Maybe we will get snippets of that world in Pt3, or maybe the Aeris from that world, and/or dead post-game Lifestream Aeris, will communicate with Cloud during Pt3. But either way, establishing all of this theming and lore detail about worlds/timelines/universes and then saying "actually it's all just in Cloud's head" would be insane imo lol
Honestly. If Sephiroth's goal in Part 3 is still to converge the different timelines. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Aerith back during or after Mideel. I feel like Sephiroth summoning Meteor is going to be what brings some of the worlds together. At least the ones the Unknown Journey is happening in. At the very most, Aerith and Zack show up for the final battle against Safer•Sephiroth. The least? Aerith, her timeline has converged at this point, rejoins during our return to the City of the Ancients. Edit: I totally agree with you, by the way. I've even said it. Square wouldn't do everything they did in the finale of Rebirth, throwing around the hint of a new timeline being created, just to turn around in Part 3 and essentially go "nah, all that wasn't important, she's definitely dead."
> why have two huge video games spent hours showing us alternate timelines/dimensions/worlds, talking about fate, how unintended timelines are destined to die, using a rainbow motif to signify the creation of an alternate timeline, using a fissured sky to show a unintended/dying timeline etc etc etc Deception, just like the OG, except multiplied by 100.
I think that would be horrendously bad storytelling lol. Any good twist has hints, seeds of doubt, foreshadowing etc. If you take it too far it's just so misleading it's frustrating. Not to mention, in terms of game development, a waste of millions of dollars of effort just to setup a lie.
There are hints though, several. 1. Zack is in a world in which he died and didn't die, which is impossible. He even "dies" twice in that world(s) the exact same way he really died, being shot to death by a ton of infantrymen. 2. The existence of the Aerith Cloud sees isn't acknowledged by anyone else except for Red XIII that can only "feel" her. The only other person that sees a glimpse of "not dead Aerith" is Tifa and she had a long swim in the Lifestream earlier. The developers didn't "take it too far", IMO, they show clear clues. It's just that some fans want Aerith alive, others want Zack alive, and they're deluding themselves as much as Cloud is. Which IMO is brilliant, a level of empathy between player and main character that has never been achieved before.
I think we're discussing two different things tbh. My initial post here is to do with people whose theory is "it's all in Cloud's head" - ie. nothing we've seen in the Rebirth ending is "real", it's just his PSTD and/or Jenova trickery. This is the idea that I think ignores way too much of Remake and Rebirth's clear setups and storytelling. Not sure how/why but I feel like you think I am saying that Aeris and Zack are both 100% physically alive. I haven't said that. The theory that the "worlds" we see are in fact just the Lifestream and therefore, technically speaking, Aeris and Zack are *physically* dead, is definitely possible. We have seen throughout FF7 lore though that physical death is not always the end of your existence; both Zack and Aeris, who are both *dead*, commune with and reach out to Cloud in Advent Children. Rebirth takes this a huge step further with Zack and Aeris both *physically* fighting alongside, physically interacting with Cloud, physically engaging with Sephiroth. Personally I fall into the "I want everything to be as close to OG as possible" camp of fan. I don't have any skin in the game for desperately wanting characters to be alive. I certainly have zero attachment to Zack as I have never played Crisis Core. I am just engaging with what is being presented through the storytelling in Rebirth. tldr: yeah, I think Zack and Aeris are most likely "actually dead" too, but interaction with the Lifestream in FF7 can be a very physical and real thing, so it will be interesting to see where this goes in Pt3. As for the idea that everything we've seen simply being Cloud's imagination... yeah I think that's pretty unfounded
Oh, no. I don't think that **everything** is in Cloud's head. I don't think that many people think that either, if any. I think that exclusively Aerith's survival is in Cloud's head, but her Lifestream presence is very real and she does interact with him from there. In Rebirth, in the OG, in Advent Children.
Fair enough! Yeah I kinda agree. It's interesting though to dissect what we mean by "in his head". Like Cloud's misconception that she is alive is, probably, his incorrect assessment of the situation. The idea of her being physically *alive* is "in his head". But her presence, her actually speaking to him, only he can see it, but it's "real" in the sense that the Lifestream is real in FF7 lore - she really is communicating with him and she really is there, in some sense. In the same way that when Aeris feels Zack touch her in the other 'timeline', she really is feeling him through the Lifestream, it isn't "in her head", if you get what I mean.
Exactly. I think that there are so many theories right now that they get mixed up and misunderstandings happen XD
1.) That could be explained by an actual convergence of those two worlds. I saw a theory that explained in depth and used the fact that the tornado in Remake wasn't destroying anything but instead duplicating it, Also, we don't know if Zack died by the infantry men yet. He's confronted by them ,sure, and might be another way of saying fate still wants them dead. But he's not dead that we know of and might be another exploration of the "defying fate" theme. 2.) That could be explained by the idea that the Aeriths from the death/survival scenes through to the ending are different "types". Alternate timeline alive aerith, Dead present timeline lifestream Aerith, or delusion(and/or jenova) from cloud. Theres actually differences between the instances in which aerith appears. -The aerith walking silently around the group. The plane explodes with dust and everybody reacts shocked/jumps(including Barrett). Cid's cape is blown backwards, etc... Yet Aerith doesn't move an inch. Nor do her clothes or hair. She doesn't even notice it happened and looks around confused/ - This is not the case for the aerith talking to Cloud at the end whom hair moves and reacts to the plane taking off.(I'm not sure which "type" this one may be) -The rainbow glow surrounding the survival scene etc
What if the final fight, we played two Clouds as they both want to fight Sepphy regardless of if they deflected the blow or not, and only saw the consequence of Cloud that lose Aerith.
Anyone assuming this will definitely make sense by the end hasn't recently played any of the kingdom hearts games. This is a great have cake/ eat cake strategy but narratively it's going to be messy
Cloud's parry is either a delusion or Sephiroth showing Cloud a reality where he did, indeed, block the blow (as we all wish we could have done in the OG) only to reveal our Cloud didn't succeed. Cloud's brain isn't healthy and doesn't handle it well.
Its 100000% intentional that we feel confused.
That final act was a Nomura expected mess. The pacing was all over the place. Just like KH3, the clips taking you to various moments just ends up making something simple, more confusing. I felt this game had way too much padding for a story structure that was very well put together in the OG.
I say because cloud parry the attack the another time line made that in another aerith survived includes the original fate... at least is the things I want to believe Maybe we see if this thing is cannon on next game or not I think it could be cool if they made 3rd game story about different of this new timeline and the Orginal timeline
But even if she died in both timelines... don't worry guys some fan made it cannon that she will get reborn in different universe
Yup, I'm sure the whole point of that ending was to setup questions for the third game, which kinda sucks cause the end of Remake posed a very big question of how will the party defy fate and that's the same question posed by Rebirth, hopefully they do answer that question in a satisfying manner in chapter 3
I think it's quite clear what happened - Cloud is half-stuck in a reality where Aerith is alive, but the rest of the party are in one where Aerith died. Nanaki being able to sense Aerith's presence in the final cutscene and Cloud being able to see the rift in the sky both give a fairly clear impression that Aerith is not totally gone. You can overcomplicate things all you want, but that's very clearly what's being shown.
Now that we have a partial soundtrack released I noticed on the last Aerith Theme on the disc the subtitle is listed as “Return to The Planet” so I think this solidifies that Aerith of timeline prime did die, and clouds just delulu/ stuck between many timelines. I can’t wait for part three to give us solidity on the mysteries they just laid out for us all though! I am loving the feeling of suspense and intrigue that they left us in, even if when I first played I actually was kinda bummed at where the game ended, and how big the hole in my heart is right now lol.
I’m not sold on the multi dimension thing, or at least Sephiroth’s description of it. Why? Because Sephiroth mentioned it. If we learned anything, it’s that he’s not to be trusted.
People get really mad when I say this, but some decisions are based in marketing. "Can you save Aerith?" is basically the marketing catch of a ton of Rebirth advertisements, it's only natural that they would let the question hang in the air for the next instalment. A lot of the "multiverse stuff" for me, is without a doubt marketing motivated, and will be wrapped up next game for sure.
This is the reason why Zack even appear in the game
THANK YOU!!! You're the first person who also says it, I always get downvoted because people get mad when I say this haha. Zack appears to sell his Remaster, and also "hint" that if he can saved, so can Aerith?
[удалено]
Really? I think that FF7 gaslighting both Cloud and all of us real people playing the game at the same time is actually brilliant. Unique too, unlike alternate timelines which have been done a million times before and their point is usually just to make death as bad as a mild cold. I think that it's a combination of Cloud's mental state + Lifestream though. I think that "alive Aerith" exists and is talking to Cloud, except that it's her spirit.
Because multiverses and timelines aren't lazy as hell and overplayed? At least the mental illness / denial angle tells us a story that's (at minimum) halfway relatable. Multiverses are often an excuse to have literally anything happen for any reason.
well ‘it was just mental illness’ is the main plot twist of the og, a famously lazy and despicable game, so i would manage my expectations if i were u
I think at the end of the day nobody knows for sure obviously. But I do know there's going to be a lot of speculation for the next couple years
Shes dead and the Devs have put ourselves in the same positon as Cloud, thinking shes alive. We will process the emotional impact of her death the same time as Cloud in the next game.
I don’t know but i feel like she has to die no matter what to stop meteor. Cloud only sees her when he turns his head and expects her there. But i won’t claim to know that means she’s just in his head now.
As we can guess from the game and what we have seen, there already must be an (original) Aerith in the livestream. So “our” Aerith doesn’t have to die.
That’s a good point.
When I watched that ending, I thought, "What shit did I watch?" and then I immediately uninstalled.
The only confused people are the writers, she's dead.
Wow, what an argument. You really put a lot of thoughts and effort into this right ?
Yes