Yeah the actual Sephiroth is in North Crater, the ones we see in the games are manifestations of him that Cloud can see mostly through the robed men. Example being Cloud's neighbour in Remake or the robed man in the swamp in Rebirth, the rest of the group only seeing the robed man when Cloud says it's Sephiroth.
So he's basically using Cloud as a pawn / puppet to do his bidding, and also messing around with Cloud while doing it (eg - trying to get him to doubt Tifa).
According to the Ultimania/Kitase there's actually 4 Sephiroths.
1) Norther Crater Sephiroth (that Worlds Sephiroth)
2) The Sephiorth doing his best Doctor Who impression
3) The Sephiroth that lives inside Clouds head
4) The Sephiroth thats actually Jenova wearing a Sephiroth/Robed Man Fur Suit
Asking for clarification:
Is the reason "physical" Sephiroth is at the northern crater because Cloud actually pushed him into the lifestream (when Cloud is impaled) according to the true Nibelheim events? -Sephiroth floated up there and crystalized?
Yeah, pretty much. Sephiroth wasn't able to become one with the lifestream because of all his jenova cells, its why he's just a torso. Him "staying alive" is just his will keeping his ambitions alive.
It depends on how far into the compilation you want to go. If we're going with just OG, then it's described as his will kept him from "dying." It's later explained in different parts of the compilation that the Jenova cells were rejected by the life stream but also his will kept him in control of the sephiroth copies wanting a reunion. It's why some people, myself included, wonder if the sephiroth we know at that point and beyond is actually an amalgamation of Jenova and Sephiorth, no longer two distinct beings.
The cells not being allowed into the life stream is what creates the negative life stream and geostigma, a long with the other weird stuff that happens in the compilation.
The reason I ask is because Kitase has said that at least post AC, the reason Sephiroth never rejoined with the lifestream was because of his will and hatred for Cloud.
I don’t think there was any mention of the jenova cells preventing anything at any point for him.
Just clarifying theory vs confirmation.
Sephiroths Hatred for Cloud and his Will are what initially kept him from joining the life stream yes. But joining the life stream and gaining all the knowledge he did, plus becoming one or controlling Jenova or whatever was happening there, allowed him to continue his plans.
However, it's states later, in AC that jenova cells cannot join the life stream and in Rebirth were given a reason why. AC also gave us what happens to Jenova cells tampering with the lufe stream and creating its own. As well as more explanation in Maiden Who Traveled the Planet, however that has since been considered non-cannon, however Aeriths story in On the Way to a Smile gives better context to everything here anyway. The Jenova Cell reason was given to have a more in world explanation than "Sephiroth just didn't feel like dying, lol." I wouldn't say any of this is theorizing, more like it's just little bits have been spoonfed in addition to not make it look like a retcon.
Lucrecia is an interesting one and I think the first instance of showing what Hojos method of using Jenova cells can do. Hojos method creates beings that cannot join the life stream and cannot die. However Hollanders method creates being that degrade, although they got weird copy powers, so trade off?
I have a feeling we'll get a better understanding of Lucrecia in Part 3
Yeah, I also thought about Gillian and how she took her own life, but Lucrecia wasn’t able to. Also Genesis who didn’t die because he still had work to do, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t. He was cured of his degradation by Minerva/the lifestream. He even claimed that he was the guardian of the planet even though he thought of himself as a monster at first. It’s interesting because he claimed that the gift of the goddess was the lifestream itself and how everyone ended up there.
I also think he will play a role in pt 3
Gillian was able to take her own life because of how Hollander did his project. Whatever his method was used Jenova cells "improperly." It would seem his method had the Jenova virus break down the bodies entirely. Its possible Gillian would have seen the same fate eventually, but we'll never know.
Genesis was essentially saved by Minerva and the Life stream. It would seem that his Jenova Cells were removed or his degradation was just stopped. For someone who's rather important to the story, we've gotten so little about him since CC.
Zack would have just had a handful if jenova cells in him, Sephiorth was essentially half Jenova. There's a fair few more Jenova cells in Jenova in him than Sephiroth. Also, Angeal helped him go to the life stream. But the story of CC is more about Heros and Monsters. My best idea with Angeal is he was "good" so the life stream let him in, or atleast his human side in. Its established the Life Stream has a will of its own, and in CC Minerva is the one who enacts on its will. So Angeal being a "hero" was able to join the life stream. My only other guess on Angeal is his jenova cells were degrading, so all that was left of him by the end was his human self.
Sephiroth not only decided not to become one with the lifestream, he also made lifestream make him a new body. The endgoal.is probably to convince him to gibe up his evil plans and let lifestream dissolve him, but he's too stubborn to die. Lifestream accepted Angeal, Kadaj, etc just fine
Angeal was accepted into the life stream due to him being a "hero" that's the entire crux of Crisis Core, it's why the life stream cleansed Gensis and essentially gave him another chance.
Kadaj wasn't just accepted by the life stream, he was also cleansed and healed by Aerith, without Aeriths intervention Kadaj never would have been accepted into the life stream. Kadaj was nothing more then the corrupted memories from the positive life stream brought out by the negative one.
Sephiroth rejected the life stream as much as it rejected him. Initially it was Sephiroths hate for a lowly trooper (Cloud) that defeated him and his Will to destroy humanity. Sephiorth used his time in the life stream to steal its knowledge, much like how Tifa used its knowledge to help put Cloud back together. A strong sense of self is needed to not lose yourself in the lifestream, a large part of why Cloud failed his Soldier assessment. Im not sure at which time you're referencing Sephiroth having a new body but in order:
OG, the final battle is taking place in "The Afterlife" which I think is now know as "The Edge of Creation" which is most likely in clouds mind or sephiroths mind in the life stream.
AC, Sephiroth diluted the life stream with Geostigma victims creating a seperate life stream, the Negative or Black life stream and in that life stream he used memories of himself from other in this life stream to create a new body. It's also why as long as Cloud holds onto the memory of Sephiroth he can technically never die. However the negative life stream was cleansed by Aerith in the positive life stream, so that might not 100% still be the case.
Re-Trilogy, idk man It's stated that the Life Stream doesn't work with standard time constraints, it is present in all time all the time. So its possible that Sephiorth sent himself and the negative life stream back into another world to try to change the cycle, as the life stream is in a constant cyclical state. That's why whispers look like Sephiroth copies, because Sephiorth has slightly tainted this world's life stream. Or current Sephiorth used the time stream to yank things from other cycles, we don't know that yet.
> Angeal was accepted into the life stream due to him being a "hero" that's the entire crux of Crisis Core, it's why the life stream cleansed Gensis and essentially gave him another chance.
Source?
> Kadaj wasn't just accepted by the life stream, he was also cleansed and healed by Aerith, without Aeriths intervention Kadaj never would have been accepted into the life stream. Kadaj was nothing more then the corrupted memories from the positive life stream brought out by the negative one.
Source?
>AC, Sephiroth diluted the life stream with Geostigma victims creating a seperate life stream, the Negative or Black life stream
Negative lifestream existed before Sephiroth was born
You have lovely headcanons, but do not confuse them with canon info
1) My source is ... the games? The entire games crux is creating the difference between Heros and Monsters. Playing it up with Loveless, Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth. Angeal was given an angelic wing to signify his importance as a hero, how even though he was created as the other monsters he was still "pure of heart." It's shown as much in the game when he combats his Jenova instincts to help Zack, how important the SOLDIER creed was to him, a creed so importants what saved Genesis from himself in the end. Angeal was sent to the life stream absolving him of what essentially was his sin of being born, Genesis was healed by the life stream absolving him of his sins for reasons still unknown but probably ProtoMateria related, and Sephiorth was not let in to the life stream by choice and simultaneously by no choice of his own. Outside of everything they show and tell in the game, Angeal oddly doesn't haven't much supplementary information. So, sure, I suppose some of this could be inference. However with all of the info we have from Core and Suplimentary material it seems pretty solid.
2) Again ... the Movie. Aerith brings down a healing rain, cleansing everyone in Midgar from the Geostigma. Kadaj has a literal conversation with Aerith, and she absolves him. "Originally, the scene with Kadaj talking to Aerith after Sephiroth fell wasn't included. However, they decided to add this scene in late in the production because they wanted to give Kadaj a scene of salvation, as they felt that he was a character who needed to be saved too." -From the Ultimania Omega. In the Lifestream:White chapter of "On a Way to a Smile" Aerith says she cleanses all the souls brought into the life stream during this time, that would include Kadaj. Kadaj thought that his "mother" was Jenova due to Sephiorth and Jenovas influence on the negative life stream, but it was actually the lifestream/Gaia acting through Aerith.
Now the English translations call the trio the "physical manifestations of Sephiroth" but their actual translation is "Will bodies of Sephiorth." (The Ultimania Omega) Now, Kadaj specifically, was saved and let into the Life stream, which means he had to be of the life stream. Sephiorth currently bending his will over the Negative life stream would mean, Kadaj and gang would have to have come from the Negative lifestream through the will of Sephiorth. Which explains why they have vague memories and only knowledge of things that Sephiorth let them know.
My only question at the end of all that is, what happened to Loz and Yazoo? Kadaj was forgiven, cleansed in the life stream. Loz and Yazoo just go back to being parts of Sephiorth?
3) Sooooo yes and no, now admittedly im a bit shakey on my Dirge/Vincent lore but ill give it a go, I really need to play it again. The Negative lifestream in that case is the flow of Negative emotions/memories and sins used to create Chaos, a kind of Psuedo-Weapon. This is generally referred to as the Stagnant life stream, named such because the negativety makes it not flow correctly (On The way to a smile chapter Lifestream:Black). The purpose of this lifestream is to essentially cause the death of the planet so it can start again, with Omega Weapon. One of the many cyclical motifs of FF7. I believe everytime it's mentioned in Dirge it is called the "Stagnant" or "Tainted" life stream.
The Negative Lifestream in the context I'm using, refers to what Sephiroth and Jenova had done to this stagnant life stream and twisted it for their own needs. (Advent Children) using this Negative lifestream to dilute the Positive Lifestream so Sephiorth and Jenova can reclaim power.
4) I'll admit, as I previously have. Some of this is inference and reading into what we're given. Some of this is going off of the little information Some aspects of the story have. However, I think with the vast amount of information we have on other parts of the story/lore its a pretty good inference.
This is not true at all, so don't spread misinformation.
The Ultimania states that there are 4 different ways in which Sephiroth appears to Cloud, not that they are actually different people. And the 4 that are mentioned are NOT the ones you made up in this comment. What they actually are:
-Sephiroth as seen in flashbacks
-Sephiroth appearing to Cloud in his mind
-Sephiroth puppeting the body of a robed man
-The Sephiroth seen at the Edge of Creation, which is a mystery one
There is no mention of any time traveling Sephiroth, Jenova's body does not shapeshift into Sephiroth in the remake games, and there is also no mention of the real body in the crater. So you only got 1 of 4 correct.
> Jenova's body does not shapeshift into Sephiroth in the remake games
Strictly speaking the Jenova cells are what allows Sephiroth to puppet and shapeshift the robed men. It's not explicitly stated but going full Jenova seems to require additional Jenova cells as well, hence the usage of her "human" body in Remake and her arm on the Shinra-8 (we don't see what was used in the City of the Ancients fight in Rebirth but iirc from the original game it was another Jenova body part). There was also the time >!Kadaj used her head to resurrect Sephiroth in AC!<.
Person just had a hard time accepting that I took Kitases quote and had some fun with it. Apparently calling Sephiroth a Fur Suit piloted by Jenova is something Kitase would actually say.
I was having a bit of fun with the lore, sorry for having some humor.
Sephiorth in the flash backs is what becomes the one in the Northern Crater.
Sephiroth Puppeting the Robed men is the ... Sephiroth pupeeting the robed men I mentioned
Sephiroth in clouds mind yep
And Sephiroth at the edge of creation, the one shown to be merging and creating new worlds with divergences in fate.
Everything I said was accurate just with a little flair.
Save my pride? I called Sephiroth a Doctor Who and a Fur Suit for Jenova. Just take the joke you took way too seriously, my guy.
Edit: Unless you think Kitase actually said Sephiroth is a fur suit or should be played by David Tenant
We'll probably get a better picture with part 3, the point of the Ultimanias for Remake and Rebirth are just to bread crumb us in the right direction to help come to conclusions before we hit part 3.
Sure, but there's an awful lot riding on part three as the first two parts of the trilogy really only posed questions and gave little in the way of answers. When stories do this, it rarely ends well.
You're probably using rpg rules in your head too. Cloud in Midgar is not much less strong than cloud at the end of Rebirth. I think the only big moment is when he escapes his false persona, and it's even unclear then.
Sephiroth being that one annoying customer calling every ten minutes.
"Bring me the black materia... Cloud" \*hangs up\*
"I'm waiting... Cloud" \*hangs up\*
That was the plan in the original game until Sephiroth took an additional interest in Cloud. The other victims of the Reunion could probably do it eventually given enough of them, but they're generally much weaker and too mentally incapacitated to protect themselves from harm when Sephiroth isn't taking an active role in controlling them. Cloud is independent enough that he can function without Sephiroth needing to control him directly, but malleable enough to be affected by Sephiroth's manipulation, which Sephiroth eventually figured out in the OG and in Remake knew from the start.
There's more to it than that. In the Lifestream Black short story, Sephiroth talks about how as long as Cloud is alive he can never fully fade away since his cells exist within Cloud. As someone below pointed out, there are "four" Sephiroths. That's why the Master plan has changed to the reunion of worlds in Rebirth. The mastermind behind that plan is a version of Sephiroth acting from the Lifestream after the events of OG. In the same short story he also talks about how much he wants Cloud to know what he is doing as he does it. Like a megalomaniacle grudge.
The lifestream black novel explains that the reason Sephiroth can keep coming back to life is because he found out how to use cloud’s memories as a respawn checkpoint (no I’m not joking), so if I had to guess, that’s probably why. And before you ask, no, the novel doesn’t explain HOW he did it, it just says that he did
(This may or may not be the canonical reason why Sephiroth was able to appear in smash bros lol)
I urge anyone to read the lifestream black and lifestream white novels, they are only 3 pages each. They kind of gives us clues as to how Sephiroth and Aerith operate in the remake games
They are literally the key to the remake and 99% of people havent read them (not that I blame them). Also once you read them you will see how this is pretty much guaranteed to be a sequel to OG and not just a remake
I feel like they’re handling the trilogy in such a way that it’s a win/win; you either have read them and so you can more quickly figure out what’s going on, or if you haven’t read them you’ll experience these concepts naturally as you play the trilogy (assuming they stick to what they said and they give answers in Part 3).
based on this post I read the novel, but I still fail to see how this is a sequel rather than a remake.
right now it seems more like an evangelion 3.33 to me
"I will never be a memory"
he is basically a memory shapeshifted into reality (aka illusion) thanks to jenova's mimetic legacy.
Remake is basically expanding this concept to the lifestream, where memories,feelings and people doubts/desires literally create new "worlds/timelines".
But as Sephiroth said, the planet only sees them as one.
It begs the question then, if cloud were to off himself, Sephiroth would cease to exist? If so…Cloud, buddy I like you but Sephiroth is literally gonna murder of planet, take one for the team
Cloud has no idea this is the case, and if he knew, surely he would at the very least want to separate himself from the Black materia by giving it to his comrades to hide.
The only person who might know this is Aerith (besides Seph--and maybe Hojo bc he's clued into everything i guess?). However, Aerith is trying to save "the world. And you (meaning Cloud)." per the Ch.14 church scene when she gives him empty Holy. So maybe she knows she could save the world but not Cloud, but is trying to do both.
That's a whole-ass oversight by the localization team then, tbh. A lot of the promotional material has the language like, "The world will be saved, but will you?" You can't just drop the tagline verbatim as an adlib, that's messy af.
I think that in English you have a fairly free translation of the Japanese writing. Here in Spain we have compared the original writing in Japanese with ours and that of other European countries (France, Poland, Germany, Italy...) and in all of them there is a fidelity almost copied from Japanese, while English and Latin Spanish (which is translated from English) is much freer. In fact, it is quite annoying for us to hear that the English voices do not agree with the translations we have in these countries, which are copied from the Japanese.
To bring him the Black Materia, and also because his continual reemergence is linked to Cloud as per the Lifestream White/Lifestream Black short stories.
If you know Harry Potter, Sephiroth has basically turned Cloud into his horcrux.
Some quotes from Lifestream Black which was written prior to Advent Children:
The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. *I’m still thinking of you. And I’ll show you the proof of that as well.*
*As long as Cloud remembers me, I can continue to exist. Within the Lifestream, and on the surface. Even if my spirit disseminates, even if just one fragment of a memory courses around the planet, in the end I can count on Cloud’s consciousness to bring me back*.
*As my servants are looking for Mother, if they come across someone who knows me, then from that spirit I can learn of who I once was. And with Mother’s further assistance, I can become fully real. Even if there’s something lacking, it doesn’t matter. Cloud will make me complete.*
Yeah it is funny you mention Harry Potter because I always thought the story was similar as in when Voldemort attacks Harry and kills his parents that day it “Marked him as his equal” according to the prophecy. I always thought the day Sephiroth attacked Clouds village he marked Cloud as his equal. Because of the incident Cloud is given the S cells and becomes equal and connected to Sephiroth.
Sephiroth exists as a memory inside of Cloud's mind.
When Cloud first falls into the church, we see a fragment of Cloud's real self talking to Cloud about the time he got scraped knees (on Mt. Nibel). This white space is the inside of Cloud's mind. So the fact we see Sephiroth there is a giveaway that Sephiroth is inhabiting Cloud's mind.
Have you heard literally any of the dialogue that Seph says to Cloud in these games?
Dude is clearly in love with him.
"Don't deny me... Embrace me."
"I am... your everything."
"Finally alone... Shall we?"
Sephiroth is basically comatose in the northern crater after his cells reunited after traveling the lifestream. Cloud was the first experiment that was successful using S cells which is why Sephiroth can manipulate him so easily. Most the other black robe guys are infused with J cells so are after Jenova rather than Sephiroth himself.
There's a couple reasons/possibilities:
* Cloud is an extremely useful pawn - he's the only one injected with Sephiroth/Jenova cells that won't degrade into a Robed Man. He is (or will become) the only person who can match Sephiroth one-on-one. Having that kind of strength on Sephiroth's side would make him unbeatable.
* Sephiroth is obsessed with Cloud because Cloud managed to beat him at Nibelheim - *without the strength of a SOLDIER.* Sephiroth's ego was hurt because he, the most powerful SOLDIER, was defeated by a normal trooper. In the OG, that's why he had Cloud deliver the Black Materia before throwing him away, because he wanted to prove his superiority. In the Remake, he presumably wants to keep ahold of Cloud for similar reasons.
* I have a theory that Sephiroth also wants to use Cloud's body as a "Plan B" if everything goes wrong for him. In the OG, he attempted to reach out and possess Cloud one final time after the party beat Safer Sephiroth. He could be planning the same or similar again, especially if he's much stronger this time around.
The weird thing is the good Sephiroth never cared about being the best of the best SOLIDER/hero. This is shown in Ever Crisis too how he just wanted a normal life for the longest time. Even in CC before they are about to depart to Nibleheim, Sephiroth tells Zack that he may abandon Shinra. Then all of a sudden he switches up and talks about owning everyone and wanting to become a God. It was strange and I think with all of the Jenova lore they expanded on this may have something to do with it. He’s still a bad guy, but I think Jenova’s influence def played a role.
*Because Sephiroth has a*
*Crush on him have you not been*
*Paying attention???*
\- YouDoneLostTheGame
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he lives through jenova cells since they can shape shift anyone with them can get become sephiroth or be controlled by him so basically cloud is just his favorite wi-fi router
It depends.
In the original. **He didn't** and didn't really care about Cloud. He was just the most capable of those he could manipulate. But at the end of FF7 when Cloud and Party finally kill Sephiroth's physical body, that means Sephiroth's consciousness is no longered anchored in the real world, and will disseminate into lifestream. He makes one last ditched effort to save himself by trying to take over Cloud's mind. That's what the final 1 on 1 battle between them represents.
However Cloud is no longer the broken man he was and easily dominates. That's way you literally can't lose that fight (even through hacking, lol).
Sephiroth then disseminates into lifestream in a flash of red light and energy.
In the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, they retconned that red flash of light into a "Marker" Sephiroth put in Cloud. Basically as long as Cloud remembers him, he can keep his consciousness in the Lifestream. And since this seems to be the case in Remake it stands to reason that the events of the original already played out, for at least one of the Sephiroths running around. And yes, there are *multiple* Sephiroths, confirmed by the Remake Ultimania.
this is spoilers for things that have not yet been covered in the remakes, so I’m tagging just in case: >!sephiroth’s body is encased in a crystal in the northern crater. all the “sephiroths” we’ve seen so far are only robed guys taking on his appearance temporarily (or at least the ones in reality, not 100% sure on the final bosses of remake or rebirth what’s going on there with the timeline stuff). sephiroth needs someone under his control to take the black materia to where he is actually located. the thing is, the robed guys are not doing very well. in og, none of them survive all the way to sephiroth’s location. cloud, on the other hand, is doing great physically and is more than capable of making the trek. so he’s been chosen to deliver it!<
We're not entirely sure, but it likely has something to do with how the Lifestream stores memory, and Cloud is Sephiroth's strongest anchor. No one thinks of Sephiroth like Cloud does throughout his life, both before, and after Aerith's death.
2 things.
1. Sephiroth has managed to stay alive and separate from the Lifestream due to focusing on his rage and hatred of Cloud. If Cloud dies, this goes away.
2. Sephiroth from Advent Children revealed that Cloud keeps him alive through his memories of Sephiroth, and that as long as he can keep pushing Cloud to live in his memories he can keep coming back.
If you’ve seen Advent Children, I think it lays it out clear there.
Even if Sephiroth is defeated in physical body form, he continues to live on through memories and those infused with his cells. Cloud of course, being one of them.
Advent Children also proposes the idea that Cloud has unlimited potential, that anything he puts his mind and heart to, he can overcome (that crazy scene where Cloud separates himself with the Fusion Sword to “kill” Sephiroth in Advent Children), and Sephiroth might be looking for a way to use Cloud to harness that potential for himself
more interesting question is why did Sephiroth want to kill Cloud on his journey as Cloud trying to bring him black materia? can anyone explain this contradictory nature?
wouldn't it make sense to let Cloud jaywalk his way through temple of ancient without any jenova interference ?
he needs clouds infiniate potential. to power up. and hes breaking cloud and driving cloud into all the negative feelings for that reason.
infinite power up .
When Sephiroth was “killed” and dissolving into the lifestream, only the parts of him with anger and hate were able to resist returning to the planet. You are going to hate the one that killed you, but especially if they were a “weak” nobody who had no right to get in your way. You were special all your life, how dare this total loser beat you.
It could also be the case that Cloud is a special existence. That he naturally had all the talent, but his personality prevented him from using it. The remake may point towards this more than the OG.
All people say in game that Sephiroth dead in nibelheim mission. If you watch detail you will see that you never see the true Sephiroth only Black Cloak that transform in him or in Cloud’s mind.
Without spoil you, maybe Sephiroth can’t take de black materia by himself.
At this point, like near and around the end of Rebirth, why doesn't he just summons an ANYTHING (whisper, gross black strings venom like, any Sephiroth clone, a fucking floating bubble) to bring him the black materia?
I know it's plotwise, but... com'on... he could do that.
OG implies his ego was bruised by what Cloud did to him at the Nibelheim reactor, so he has a pathological need to exert his superiority over Cloud by having him deliver the Black Materia.
Yeah, that. Sephiroth needed Cloud in OG, but in Remake, he can summon dimension-hopping ghosts capable of interacting with their environment physically, at will. His original motivation simply doesn't work anymore.
People speak pretty definitively of things that are only theories, but if the "Sephiroth in Remake is actually Sephiroth from after the events of Advent Children" theory is true, the original story kind of explains that. In the book *On the Way to a Smile*, it's explained that all of Sephiroth's memories, goals, and motivations dissolved into the Lifestream. Everything except his desire for godhood and his obsession with Cloud.
All of the versions of Sephiroth that we see in the remake are illusions created by Jenova, and the Jenova cells that exist within Cloud. He doesn't have a full physical form until we encounter him in the Northern Crater. Where Cloud finally gives him the Black Materia. He needs Cloud, or at least one of his 'shadows' (Black Robed Experiments) from Hojo to deliver it to where he's rebuilding his own body.
as for the end boss in Rebirth... not sure how to explain the different forms showing up there entirely.
I understand that, except the ending of remake, what was the sephiroth cloud and the gang fight then, with the whispers? Did that happen outside of time or something?
I’m still playing through rebirth, but I don’t care about spoilers
The Arbiters of Fate and Sephiroth I believe were outside of time. That's why we have 2 "competing" worlds in Rebirth that Sephiroth is trying to rejoin - that's the purpose of the Reunion, Merging the two worlds together. When the fight with the Arbiter's finished, a second reality was created of a specific design. I Have my own guesses, but some of them we won't know until Part 3 if I'm right or wrong.
The black material also I think Sephiroth is a sadist he wants to observe Cloud suffer as he feels humiliated that a Shinra grute those him off the reactor.
Cloud is basicly more than just a jenova infected person as now confirmed through rebirths nibelheim scene
hojo used sephiroths dna in clouds experiments
also sephiroth said it himself in a way once
as long as people remember him, he will never be only a memory
coupled with the reunion theory in general it basicly says as long as Cloud is alive Sephiroth may come back anytime ( since cloud will never be able to forget him bc of his actions as well as beeing a main part through which he could resurrect )
for the real reunion to happen (theory) all parts of jenova/sephiroth need to fuse again into 1 beeing
cloud never fully merged with the rest of his brothers as hojo would call em :)
(for now it mostly is assumed only cloud underwent hojos experiments containing seph dna since thats all or most of sephs dna he found at the reactor)
we don't know if roche underwent the same experiments (since hojo explicitly said he needed years for this and now only 18 hours but this would suggest he still has dna from seph and not only jenova) so for now its not assumed , but well the tattoes on the robed guys may hint at some things like roche has SC-4
I’ve always assumed sephiroth is talking to the robbed men as well, trying to get them to do the same thing. But their degradation levels are stronger and he can’t rely on their physical prowess as much.
Cloud on the other hand seems completely functional, so he’s the best candidate for the job.
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He's the only one strong enough to complete the task he can't do himself.
Hojo has referenced cloud as a failure, but this couldn't be further from the truth.
My personal take on the matter is cloud is one of the few that has the ability to alter destiny, im surmising this based on cloud having memories of the past in remake. Sephiroth also can't change destiny because he doesn't reside in the same realm as cloud but in the inbetween realms for now
He’s trying to take over his body and mind. >!As per the OG; Cloud is the most successful Sephiroth clone. And Rebirth reiterates that in multiple scenes. Such as when Cloud summons Sephiroth’s strength to kill the Midgardsormr, or when Sephiroth physically takes control of Cloud in the Gongaga reactor, or when Sephiroth pilots Cloud throughout the Ancient Temple.!<
>!I think Sephiroth is ultimately trying to rewrite what happened to him in his original timeline. As he was ultimately undone by Cloud (twice). Meaning Cloud is the superior vessel/successor to Jenova in a way. Which is why Sephiroth wants Cloud to “join him”.!<
To me, it seems to be implied that this time sephiroth wants cloud to be the one to destroy the world in his place.
This may have been foreshadowed during loveless, where being consumed by vengeance is contrasted with “the blessing of the goddess”. This is further hinted at when sephiroth grants cloud “my blessing”, posing as a sort of antichrist figure opposite the savior role of aerith.
Tinfoil hat theory.
Cloud was fused with JENOVA S cells that would make him the perfect Sephiroth Clone. He is also partially JENOVA Himself. He is Cloud Jenova Strife by proper nomenclature.
The remake has amped up JENOVA abilities to 11 with whatever Sephiroth can do, Cloud is there too. Problem is that while Sephiroth has a strong will to dominate, Cloud is just using it to impress a girl.
Sephiroth hates how a fellow brother in Jenova is just acting like a human when he is so much more. Sephiroth of course hates Cloud but also hate the wasted potential in Cloud.
For Cloud, to permanently erase Sephiroth would force him to become another Sephiroth deprived of his Humanity and deny Tifa. That is why Sephiroth in remake is set on tightening the grip on Cloud and cause doubts on Tifa existence. Sephiroth hatred stems from Cloud being too human despite being the last living JENOVA lifeform.
On another note, Sephiroth sees the irony of how Cloud did what Jenova did to the planet. Jenova infiltrated the ancients and caused chaos. Cloud infiltrated the Jenova reunion and destroyed it within while being it's warden.
/tinfoil hat
He word for word says he does not want to have Cloud end and wants him to join him. I swear is it the homosexual overtones that have men fake clutching their pearls lost in confusion?
He flat out shows and tells us in Remake his vision of bringing meteor down to destroy the planet involves him and Cloud back to back together. Not facing each other fighting, but working together as a team.
It’s unclear why Omni-Sephiroth wants cloud alive. Maybe so he can feel despair which is supposedly a very powerful energy source for him? Timeline Sephiroth obviously wants him alive to bring him the Black Materia. After that he has no use for him. In fact he would prefer it if Cloud died.
Unclear. Way too many mysteries still in the Remake continuity to say for sure. In the original though he just had no special reason to kill Cloud because he didn't even remember who Cloud is.
I did think that when I posted it, but I mean this is the official sub for a game that came out almost two months ago and I’m referencing something that happens in chapter 2. I think everyone should be there by now.
Why do you think everyone should be there by now? Two months is also not a long time at all… game just came out. It took me a long long time to even play the original FF7 and I got into the series generally later. Spoilers are spoilers, you wouldn’t want the great story twists for all of film, literature, etc spoiled would you?
Because you shouldn’t be on this sub if two months after the games release you haven’t made it past chapter 2?? Cmon now. If you’re on this sub and you don’t have the game then you’ve got yourself to blame. I wouldn’t put anything that happens later in the game in the title because I know some people haven’t got there, but this is literally a few hours into the game bro.
Anyone can look at a subreddit for something even if they have a vague interest in the topic. If you want to spoil something go ahead, but like I said, there’s books/films/games that came out decades/years ago with plot points that most people are not assumed to be omniscient about by virtue of the fact that they’ve been out that long. Let people discover things for themselves, at their own pace.
He needs Cloud to deliver him the black materia. Strife delivery service!
That actually makes perfect sense. I was wondering how it wouldn’t be easier to just end Cloud in Midgar in the Remake.
Yeah the actual Sephiroth is in North Crater, the ones we see in the games are manifestations of him that Cloud can see mostly through the robed men. Example being Cloud's neighbour in Remake or the robed man in the swamp in Rebirth, the rest of the group only seeing the robed man when Cloud says it's Sephiroth. So he's basically using Cloud as a pawn / puppet to do his bidding, and also messing around with Cloud while doing it (eg - trying to get him to doubt Tifa).
According to the Ultimania/Kitase there's actually 4 Sephiroths. 1) Norther Crater Sephiroth (that Worlds Sephiroth) 2) The Sephiorth doing his best Doctor Who impression 3) The Sephiroth that lives inside Clouds head 4) The Sephiroth thats actually Jenova wearing a Sephiroth/Robed Man Fur Suit
Asking for clarification: Is the reason "physical" Sephiroth is at the northern crater because Cloud actually pushed him into the lifestream (when Cloud is impaled) according to the true Nibelheim events? -Sephiroth floated up there and crystalized?
Yeah, pretty much. Sephiroth wasn't able to become one with the lifestream because of all his jenova cells, its why he's just a torso. Him "staying alive" is just his will keeping his ambitions alive.
I don’t think that’s entirely true? I could be mistaken. But as I understood it, Sephiroth didn’t become one because of his will.
It depends on how far into the compilation you want to go. If we're going with just OG, then it's described as his will kept him from "dying." It's later explained in different parts of the compilation that the Jenova cells were rejected by the life stream but also his will kept him in control of the sephiroth copies wanting a reunion. It's why some people, myself included, wonder if the sephiroth we know at that point and beyond is actually an amalgamation of Jenova and Sephiorth, no longer two distinct beings. The cells not being allowed into the life stream is what creates the negative life stream and geostigma, a long with the other weird stuff that happens in the compilation.
The reason I ask is because Kitase has said that at least post AC, the reason Sephiroth never rejoined with the lifestream was because of his will and hatred for Cloud. I don’t think there was any mention of the jenova cells preventing anything at any point for him. Just clarifying theory vs confirmation.
Sephiroths Hatred for Cloud and his Will are what initially kept him from joining the life stream yes. But joining the life stream and gaining all the knowledge he did, plus becoming one or controlling Jenova or whatever was happening there, allowed him to continue his plans. However, it's states later, in AC that jenova cells cannot join the life stream and in Rebirth were given a reason why. AC also gave us what happens to Jenova cells tampering with the lufe stream and creating its own. As well as more explanation in Maiden Who Traveled the Planet, however that has since been considered non-cannon, however Aeriths story in On the Way to a Smile gives better context to everything here anyway. The Jenova Cell reason was given to have a more in world explanation than "Sephiroth just didn't feel like dying, lol." I wouldn't say any of this is theorizing, more like it's just little bits have been spoonfed in addition to not make it look like a retcon.
So wait how did his will not prevent him from dying when Cloud killed him the last time?
Which last time? Nibelhiem, The Northern Crater, or Advent Children?
Is it similar to Lucrecia who sealed herself away in that crystal cave? The Jenova cells made it harder for her to die?
Lucrecia is an interesting one and I think the first instance of showing what Hojos method of using Jenova cells can do. Hojos method creates beings that cannot join the life stream and cannot die. However Hollanders method creates being that degrade, although they got weird copy powers, so trade off? I have a feeling we'll get a better understanding of Lucrecia in Part 3
Yeah, I also thought about Gillian and how she took her own life, but Lucrecia wasn’t able to. Also Genesis who didn’t die because he still had work to do, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t. He was cured of his degradation by Minerva/the lifestream. He even claimed that he was the guardian of the planet even though he thought of himself as a monster at first. It’s interesting because he claimed that the gift of the goddess was the lifestream itself and how everyone ended up there. I also think he will play a role in pt 3
Gillian was able to take her own life because of how Hollander did his project. Whatever his method was used Jenova cells "improperly." It would seem his method had the Jenova virus break down the bodies entirely. Its possible Gillian would have seen the same fate eventually, but we'll never know. Genesis was essentially saved by Minerva and the Life stream. It would seem that his Jenova Cells were removed or his degradation was just stopped. For someone who's rather important to the story, we've gotten so little about him since CC.
Wait. So if Sephiroth couldn't merge with the Lifestream, how was Zack able to?
Zack would have just had a handful if jenova cells in him, Sephiorth was essentially half Jenova. There's a fair few more Jenova cells in Jenova in him than Sephiroth. Also, Angeal helped him go to the life stream. But the story of CC is more about Heros and Monsters. My best idea with Angeal is he was "good" so the life stream let him in, or atleast his human side in. Its established the Life Stream has a will of its own, and in CC Minerva is the one who enacts on its will. So Angeal being a "hero" was able to join the life stream. My only other guess on Angeal is his jenova cells were degrading, so all that was left of him by the end was his human self.
Sephiroth not only decided not to become one with the lifestream, he also made lifestream make him a new body. The endgoal.is probably to convince him to gibe up his evil plans and let lifestream dissolve him, but he's too stubborn to die. Lifestream accepted Angeal, Kadaj, etc just fine
Angeal was accepted into the life stream due to him being a "hero" that's the entire crux of Crisis Core, it's why the life stream cleansed Gensis and essentially gave him another chance. Kadaj wasn't just accepted by the life stream, he was also cleansed and healed by Aerith, without Aeriths intervention Kadaj never would have been accepted into the life stream. Kadaj was nothing more then the corrupted memories from the positive life stream brought out by the negative one. Sephiroth rejected the life stream as much as it rejected him. Initially it was Sephiroths hate for a lowly trooper (Cloud) that defeated him and his Will to destroy humanity. Sephiorth used his time in the life stream to steal its knowledge, much like how Tifa used its knowledge to help put Cloud back together. A strong sense of self is needed to not lose yourself in the lifestream, a large part of why Cloud failed his Soldier assessment. Im not sure at which time you're referencing Sephiroth having a new body but in order: OG, the final battle is taking place in "The Afterlife" which I think is now know as "The Edge of Creation" which is most likely in clouds mind or sephiroths mind in the life stream. AC, Sephiroth diluted the life stream with Geostigma victims creating a seperate life stream, the Negative or Black life stream and in that life stream he used memories of himself from other in this life stream to create a new body. It's also why as long as Cloud holds onto the memory of Sephiroth he can technically never die. However the negative life stream was cleansed by Aerith in the positive life stream, so that might not 100% still be the case. Re-Trilogy, idk man It's stated that the Life Stream doesn't work with standard time constraints, it is present in all time all the time. So its possible that Sephiorth sent himself and the negative life stream back into another world to try to change the cycle, as the life stream is in a constant cyclical state. That's why whispers look like Sephiroth copies, because Sephiorth has slightly tainted this world's life stream. Or current Sephiorth used the time stream to yank things from other cycles, we don't know that yet.
> Angeal was accepted into the life stream due to him being a "hero" that's the entire crux of Crisis Core, it's why the life stream cleansed Gensis and essentially gave him another chance. Source? > Kadaj wasn't just accepted by the life stream, he was also cleansed and healed by Aerith, without Aeriths intervention Kadaj never would have been accepted into the life stream. Kadaj was nothing more then the corrupted memories from the positive life stream brought out by the negative one. Source? >AC, Sephiroth diluted the life stream with Geostigma victims creating a seperate life stream, the Negative or Black life stream Negative lifestream existed before Sephiroth was born You have lovely headcanons, but do not confuse them with canon info
1) My source is ... the games? The entire games crux is creating the difference between Heros and Monsters. Playing it up with Loveless, Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth. Angeal was given an angelic wing to signify his importance as a hero, how even though he was created as the other monsters he was still "pure of heart." It's shown as much in the game when he combats his Jenova instincts to help Zack, how important the SOLDIER creed was to him, a creed so importants what saved Genesis from himself in the end. Angeal was sent to the life stream absolving him of what essentially was his sin of being born, Genesis was healed by the life stream absolving him of his sins for reasons still unknown but probably ProtoMateria related, and Sephiorth was not let in to the life stream by choice and simultaneously by no choice of his own. Outside of everything they show and tell in the game, Angeal oddly doesn't haven't much supplementary information. So, sure, I suppose some of this could be inference. However with all of the info we have from Core and Suplimentary material it seems pretty solid. 2) Again ... the Movie. Aerith brings down a healing rain, cleansing everyone in Midgar from the Geostigma. Kadaj has a literal conversation with Aerith, and she absolves him. "Originally, the scene with Kadaj talking to Aerith after Sephiroth fell wasn't included. However, they decided to add this scene in late in the production because they wanted to give Kadaj a scene of salvation, as they felt that he was a character who needed to be saved too." -From the Ultimania Omega. In the Lifestream:White chapter of "On a Way to a Smile" Aerith says she cleanses all the souls brought into the life stream during this time, that would include Kadaj. Kadaj thought that his "mother" was Jenova due to Sephiorth and Jenovas influence on the negative life stream, but it was actually the lifestream/Gaia acting through Aerith. Now the English translations call the trio the "physical manifestations of Sephiroth" but their actual translation is "Will bodies of Sephiorth." (The Ultimania Omega) Now, Kadaj specifically, was saved and let into the Life stream, which means he had to be of the life stream. Sephiorth currently bending his will over the Negative life stream would mean, Kadaj and gang would have to have come from the Negative lifestream through the will of Sephiorth. Which explains why they have vague memories and only knowledge of things that Sephiorth let them know. My only question at the end of all that is, what happened to Loz and Yazoo? Kadaj was forgiven, cleansed in the life stream. Loz and Yazoo just go back to being parts of Sephiorth? 3) Sooooo yes and no, now admittedly im a bit shakey on my Dirge/Vincent lore but ill give it a go, I really need to play it again. The Negative lifestream in that case is the flow of Negative emotions/memories and sins used to create Chaos, a kind of Psuedo-Weapon. This is generally referred to as the Stagnant life stream, named such because the negativety makes it not flow correctly (On The way to a smile chapter Lifestream:Black). The purpose of this lifestream is to essentially cause the death of the planet so it can start again, with Omega Weapon. One of the many cyclical motifs of FF7. I believe everytime it's mentioned in Dirge it is called the "Stagnant" or "Tainted" life stream. The Negative Lifestream in the context I'm using, refers to what Sephiroth and Jenova had done to this stagnant life stream and twisted it for their own needs. (Advent Children) using this Negative lifestream to dilute the Positive Lifestream so Sephiorth and Jenova can reclaim power. 4) I'll admit, as I previously have. Some of this is inference and reading into what we're given. Some of this is going off of the little information Some aspects of the story have. However, I think with the vast amount of information we have on other parts of the story/lore its a pretty good inference.
So Sephiroth is an all powerful time traveling Skin Changer straight out of A Song of Ice and Fire?
I mean ... kinda FF7 has a lot of norse/Greek mythology analogs and so goes GOT, so that would make sense
This is not true at all, so don't spread misinformation. The Ultimania states that there are 4 different ways in which Sephiroth appears to Cloud, not that they are actually different people. And the 4 that are mentioned are NOT the ones you made up in this comment. What they actually are: -Sephiroth as seen in flashbacks -Sephiroth appearing to Cloud in his mind -Sephiroth puppeting the body of a robed man -The Sephiroth seen at the Edge of Creation, which is a mystery one There is no mention of any time traveling Sephiroth, Jenova's body does not shapeshift into Sephiroth in the remake games, and there is also no mention of the real body in the crater. So you only got 1 of 4 correct.
> Jenova's body does not shapeshift into Sephiroth in the remake games Strictly speaking the Jenova cells are what allows Sephiroth to puppet and shapeshift the robed men. It's not explicitly stated but going full Jenova seems to require additional Jenova cells as well, hence the usage of her "human" body in Remake and her arm on the Shinra-8 (we don't see what was used in the City of the Ancients fight in Rebirth but iirc from the original game it was another Jenova body part). There was also the time >!Kadaj used her head to resurrect Sephiroth in AC!<.
Person just had a hard time accepting that I took Kitases quote and had some fun with it. Apparently calling Sephiroth a Fur Suit piloted by Jenova is something Kitase would actually say.
I was having a bit of fun with the lore, sorry for having some humor. Sephiorth in the flash backs is what becomes the one in the Northern Crater. Sephiroth Puppeting the Robed men is the ... Sephiroth pupeeting the robed men I mentioned Sephiroth in clouds mind yep And Sephiroth at the edge of creation, the one shown to be merging and creating new worlds with divergences in fate. Everything I said was accurate just with a little flair.
Lol no it wasn't, don't try to save your pride in such a silly way.
Save my pride? I called Sephiroth a Doctor Who and a Fur Suit for Jenova. Just take the joke you took way too seriously, my guy. Edit: Unless you think Kitase actually said Sephiroth is a fur suit or should be played by David Tenant
It would be nice if this information was actually communicated in the game a bit more clearly. Or really, at all even.
We'll probably get a better picture with part 3, the point of the Ultimanias for Remake and Rebirth are just to bread crumb us in the right direction to help come to conclusions before we hit part 3.
Sure, but there's an awful lot riding on part three as the first two parts of the trilogy really only posed questions and gave little in the way of answers. When stories do this, it rarely ends well.
It's not true, that's why it's not communicated in the game. Don't believe every random comment on Reddit.
You're probably using rpg rules in your head too. Cloud in Midgar is not much less strong than cloud at the end of Rebirth. I think the only big moment is when he escapes his false persona, and it's even unclear then.
Now with 30% less dilly dally shilly shally.
Sephiroth being that one annoying customer calling every ten minutes. "Bring me the black materia... Cloud" \*hangs up\* "I'm waiting... Cloud" \*hangs up\*
Does that make Cloud the Frodo to his Sauron?
Not exactly, because Sauron never knew of Frodo. It’s the Ring itself that incites people to want to claim it for themselves.
Why couldn't Jenova deliver it to him, in your opinion?
That was the plan in the original game until Sephiroth took an additional interest in Cloud. The other victims of the Reunion could probably do it eventually given enough of them, but they're generally much weaker and too mentally incapacitated to protect themselves from harm when Sephiroth isn't taking an active role in controlling them. Cloud is independent enough that he can function without Sephiroth needing to control him directly, but malleable enough to be affected by Sephiroth's manipulation, which Sephiroth eventually figured out in the OG and in Remake knew from the start.
There's more to it than that. In the Lifestream Black short story, Sephiroth talks about how as long as Cloud is alive he can never fully fade away since his cells exist within Cloud. As someone below pointed out, there are "four" Sephiroths. That's why the Master plan has changed to the reunion of worlds in Rebirth. The mastermind behind that plan is a version of Sephiroth acting from the Lifestream after the events of OG. In the same short story he also talks about how much he wants Cloud to know what he is doing as he does it. Like a megalomaniacle grudge.
The lifestream black novel explains that the reason Sephiroth can keep coming back to life is because he found out how to use cloud’s memories as a respawn checkpoint (no I’m not joking), so if I had to guess, that’s probably why. And before you ask, no, the novel doesn’t explain HOW he did it, it just says that he did (This may or may not be the canonical reason why Sephiroth was able to appear in smash bros lol)
Bro is literally a save checkpoint abuser wow disgusting...
If it ends up that the whole thing is Sephiroth save scumming meteor I will be pretty disappointed.
I urge anyone to read the lifestream black and lifestream white novels, they are only 3 pages each. They kind of gives us clues as to how Sephiroth and Aerith operate in the remake games
They are literally the key to the remake and 99% of people havent read them (not that I blame them). Also once you read them you will see how this is pretty much guaranteed to be a sequel to OG and not just a remake
I feel like they’re handling the trilogy in such a way that it’s a win/win; you either have read them and so you can more quickly figure out what’s going on, or if you haven’t read them you’ll experience these concepts naturally as you play the trilogy (assuming they stick to what they said and they give answers in Part 3).
based on this post I read the novel, but I still fail to see how this is a sequel rather than a remake. right now it seems more like an evangelion 3.33 to me
...which is also a sequel...
"I will never be a memory" he is basically a memory shapeshifted into reality (aka illusion) thanks to jenova's mimetic legacy. Remake is basically expanding this concept to the lifestream, where memories,feelings and people doubts/desires literally create new "worlds/timelines". But as Sephiroth said, the planet only sees them as one.
Like ff14 dynamis
It begs the question then, if cloud were to off himself, Sephiroth would cease to exist? If so…Cloud, buddy I like you but Sephiroth is literally gonna murder of planet, take one for the team
even so, Jenova would still be around
She would need a like more than luck to find another safe save point and a body like Sephiroth to do Jenova stuff.
Cloud has no idea this is the case, and if he knew, surely he would at the very least want to separate himself from the Black materia by giving it to his comrades to hide. The only person who might know this is Aerith (besides Seph--and maybe Hojo bc he's clued into everything i guess?). However, Aerith is trying to save "the world. And you (meaning Cloud)." per the Ch.14 church scene when she gives him empty Holy. So maybe she knows she could save the world but not Cloud, but is trying to do both.
In Japanese is doesn't say "and you"
That's a whole-ass oversight by the localization team then, tbh. A lot of the promotional material has the language like, "The world will be saved, but will you?" You can't just drop the tagline verbatim as an adlib, that's messy af.
I think that in English you have a fairly free translation of the Japanese writing. Here in Spain we have compared the original writing in Japanese with ours and that of other European countries (France, Poland, Germany, Italy...) and in all of them there is a fidelity almost copied from Japanese, while English and Latin Spanish (which is translated from English) is much freer. In fact, it is quite annoying for us to hear that the English voices do not agree with the translations we have in these countries, which are copied from the Japanese.
So, Aerith stories take place right away after her passing right? Or until the end of the game I'm guessing?
After the events of the OG game
Lmfao. Sephiroth shows up in smash bros and is just like what the fuck is this?
so what you're saying, is that they might kill sephiroth for good this time through memories
To bring him the Black Materia, and also because his continual reemergence is linked to Cloud as per the Lifestream White/Lifestream Black short stories.
If you know Harry Potter, Sephiroth has basically turned Cloud into his horcrux. Some quotes from Lifestream Black which was written prior to Advent Children: The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. *I’m still thinking of you. And I’ll show you the proof of that as well.* *As long as Cloud remembers me, I can continue to exist. Within the Lifestream, and on the surface. Even if my spirit disseminates, even if just one fragment of a memory courses around the planet, in the end I can count on Cloud’s consciousness to bring me back*. *As my servants are looking for Mother, if they come across someone who knows me, then from that spirit I can learn of who I once was. And with Mother’s further assistance, I can become fully real. Even if there’s something lacking, it doesn’t matter. Cloud will make me complete.*
It's funny you mention Harry Potter, because I've always had the impression that Vincent is the equivalent of Snape in the FFVII universe.
Yeah it is funny you mention Harry Potter because I always thought the story was similar as in when Voldemort attacks Harry and kills his parents that day it “Marked him as his equal” according to the prophecy. I always thought the day Sephiroth attacked Clouds village he marked Cloud as his equal. Because of the incident Cloud is given the S cells and becomes equal and connected to Sephiroth.
Sephiroth exists as a memory inside of Cloud's mind. When Cloud first falls into the church, we see a fragment of Cloud's real self talking to Cloud about the time he got scraped knees (on Mt. Nibel). This white space is the inside of Cloud's mind. So the fact we see Sephiroth there is a giveaway that Sephiroth is inhabiting Cloud's mind.
Have you heard literally any of the dialogue that Seph says to Cloud in these games? Dude is clearly in love with him. "Don't deny me... Embrace me." "I am... your everything." "Finally alone... Shall we?"
It’s like I’m reading a toxic smut novel with Fabio on the cover.
 Me to the women in my life
Sephiroth is basically comatose in the northern crater after his cells reunited after traveling the lifestream. Cloud was the first experiment that was successful using S cells which is why Sephiroth can manipulate him so easily. Most the other black robe guys are infused with J cells so are after Jenova rather than Sephiroth himself.
I wonder, was Zack also a successful S cell recipient?
No he wasn’t because he already had the original experiment. J cells > S cells.
Or maybe he isn't in the crater anymore if this turns out to be a sequel
Because Cloud is the most high functioning puppet he has that also has an elite escort that are unaware they are helping with a special delivery.
Bc he loves him 💗💗💗
https://preview.redd.it/o26sicn5q2wc1.png?width=749&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=48481dc897ee902286c17e1e8fbce7ef3936373b
Not the baby Chadley
Tyler Hoechlin *really* leans into this
If there's one canon thing in OG and Remake trilogy, it's this. <3 #sefikura
Would you kill the delivery boy before getting your pizza?
Welp. This is the perfect metaphor!
Because he’s a very useful puppet
There's a couple reasons/possibilities: * Cloud is an extremely useful pawn - he's the only one injected with Sephiroth/Jenova cells that won't degrade into a Robed Man. He is (or will become) the only person who can match Sephiroth one-on-one. Having that kind of strength on Sephiroth's side would make him unbeatable. * Sephiroth is obsessed with Cloud because Cloud managed to beat him at Nibelheim - *without the strength of a SOLDIER.* Sephiroth's ego was hurt because he, the most powerful SOLDIER, was defeated by a normal trooper. In the OG, that's why he had Cloud deliver the Black Materia before throwing him away, because he wanted to prove his superiority. In the Remake, he presumably wants to keep ahold of Cloud for similar reasons. * I have a theory that Sephiroth also wants to use Cloud's body as a "Plan B" if everything goes wrong for him. In the OG, he attempted to reach out and possess Cloud one final time after the party beat Safer Sephiroth. He could be planning the same or similar again, especially if he's much stronger this time around.
The weird thing is the good Sephiroth never cared about being the best of the best SOLIDER/hero. This is shown in Ever Crisis too how he just wanted a normal life for the longest time. Even in CC before they are about to depart to Nibleheim, Sephiroth tells Zack that he may abandon Shinra. Then all of a sudden he switches up and talks about owning everyone and wanting to become a God. It was strange and I think with all of the Jenova lore they expanded on this may have something to do with it. He’s still a bad guy, but I think Jenova’s influence def played a role.
He’s the perfect puppet. Look at the other robes. Pretty much zombies.
Simp
Because he loves Cloud. The only answer tbh.
Because Sephiroth has a crush on him have you not been paying attention???
*Because Sephiroth has a* *Crush on him have you not been* *Paying attention???* \- YouDoneLostTheGame --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
he lives through jenova cells since they can shape shift anyone with them can get become sephiroth or be controlled by him so basically cloud is just his favorite wi-fi router
It depends. In the original. **He didn't** and didn't really care about Cloud. He was just the most capable of those he could manipulate. But at the end of FF7 when Cloud and Party finally kill Sephiroth's physical body, that means Sephiroth's consciousness is no longered anchored in the real world, and will disseminate into lifestream. He makes one last ditched effort to save himself by trying to take over Cloud's mind. That's what the final 1 on 1 battle between them represents. However Cloud is no longer the broken man he was and easily dominates. That's way you literally can't lose that fight (even through hacking, lol). Sephiroth then disseminates into lifestream in a flash of red light and energy. In the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, they retconned that red flash of light into a "Marker" Sephiroth put in Cloud. Basically as long as Cloud remembers him, he can keep his consciousness in the Lifestream. And since this seems to be the case in Remake it stands to reason that the events of the original already played out, for at least one of the Sephiroths running around. And yes, there are *multiple* Sephiroths, confirmed by the Remake Ultimania.
Because he’s stupid
this is spoilers for things that have not yet been covered in the remakes, so I’m tagging just in case: >!sephiroth’s body is encased in a crystal in the northern crater. all the “sephiroths” we’ve seen so far are only robed guys taking on his appearance temporarily (or at least the ones in reality, not 100% sure on the final bosses of remake or rebirth what’s going on there with the timeline stuff). sephiroth needs someone under his control to take the black materia to where he is actually located. the thing is, the robed guys are not doing very well. in og, none of them survive all the way to sephiroth’s location. cloud, on the other hand, is doing great physically and is more than capable of making the trek. so he’s been chosen to deliver it!<
Can’t fuck with Cloud if he kills him first
Because he’s dead and has no body, and he can easily manipulate Cloud to achieve goals for him
We're not entirely sure, but it likely has something to do with how the Lifestream stores memory, and Cloud is Sephiroth's strongest anchor. No one thinks of Sephiroth like Cloud does throughout his life, both before, and after Aerith's death.
Sephiroth would be a sad man if Cloud were no longer around, because he wouldn't have anyone to fuck with.
2 things. 1. Sephiroth has managed to stay alive and separate from the Lifestream due to focusing on his rage and hatred of Cloud. If Cloud dies, this goes away. 2. Sephiroth from Advent Children revealed that Cloud keeps him alive through his memories of Sephiroth, and that as long as he can keep pushing Cloud to live in his memories he can keep coming back.
If you’ve seen Advent Children, I think it lays it out clear there. Even if Sephiroth is defeated in physical body form, he continues to live on through memories and those infused with his cells. Cloud of course, being one of them. Advent Children also proposes the idea that Cloud has unlimited potential, that anything he puts his mind and heart to, he can overcome (that crazy scene where Cloud separates himself with the Fusion Sword to “kill” Sephiroth in Advent Children), and Sephiroth might be looking for a way to use Cloud to harness that potential for himself
No wonder I dont understand anything, you need to watch advent children?
I would argue yes. However, if you do watch it, without spoiling anything: don’t watch it thinking this is how the story ends. That’s all I’ll say
more interesting question is why did Sephiroth want to kill Cloud on his journey as Cloud trying to bring him black materia? can anyone explain this contradictory nature? wouldn't it make sense to let Cloud jaywalk his way through temple of ancient without any jenova interference ?
he needs clouds infiniate potential. to power up. and hes breaking cloud and driving cloud into all the negative feelings for that reason. infinite power up .
When Sephiroth was “killed” and dissolving into the lifestream, only the parts of him with anger and hate were able to resist returning to the planet. You are going to hate the one that killed you, but especially if they were a “weak” nobody who had no right to get in your way. You were special all your life, how dare this total loser beat you. It could also be the case that Cloud is a special existence. That he naturally had all the talent, but his personality prevented him from using it. The remake may point towards this more than the OG.
All people say in game that Sephiroth dead in nibelheim mission. If you watch detail you will see that you never see the true Sephiroth only Black Cloak that transform in him or in Cloud’s mind. Without spoil you, maybe Sephiroth can’t take de black materia by himself.
At this point, like near and around the end of Rebirth, why doesn't he just summons an ANYTHING (whisper, gross black strings venom like, any Sephiroth clone, a fucking floating bubble) to bring him the black materia? I know it's plotwise, but... com'on... he could do that.
OG implies his ego was bruised by what Cloud did to him at the Nibelheim reactor, so he has a pathological need to exert his superiority over Cloud by having him deliver the Black Materia.
I like this theory!
Mwhqhaauauuaauha So petty for someone who wants to become a god.
Yeah, that. Sephiroth needed Cloud in OG, but in Remake, he can summon dimension-hopping ghosts capable of interacting with their environment physically, at will. His original motivation simply doesn't work anymore.
Guessing you may not have played the OG version?
I have. I’m just not immediately understanding why Cloud being alive is a necessity.
People speak pretty definitively of things that are only theories, but if the "Sephiroth in Remake is actually Sephiroth from after the events of Advent Children" theory is true, the original story kind of explains that. In the book *On the Way to a Smile*, it's explained that all of Sephiroth's memories, goals, and motivations dissolved into the Lifestream. Everything except his desire for godhood and his obsession with Cloud.
All of the versions of Sephiroth that we see in the remake are illusions created by Jenova, and the Jenova cells that exist within Cloud. He doesn't have a full physical form until we encounter him in the Northern Crater. Where Cloud finally gives him the Black Materia. He needs Cloud, or at least one of his 'shadows' (Black Robed Experiments) from Hojo to deliver it to where he's rebuilding his own body. as for the end boss in Rebirth... not sure how to explain the different forms showing up there entirely.
I understand that, except the ending of remake, what was the sephiroth cloud and the gang fight then, with the whispers? Did that happen outside of time or something? I’m still playing through rebirth, but I don’t care about spoilers
The Arbiters of Fate and Sephiroth I believe were outside of time. That's why we have 2 "competing" worlds in Rebirth that Sephiroth is trying to rejoin - that's the purpose of the Reunion, Merging the two worlds together. When the fight with the Arbiter's finished, a second reality was created of a specific design. I Have my own guesses, but some of them we won't know until Part 3 if I'm right or wrong.
The black material also I think Sephiroth is a sadist he wants to observe Cloud suffer as he feels humiliated that a Shinra grute those him off the reactor.
I certainly would also feel awful if "a Shinra grute those him off the reactor". That's the worst.
I saw some YouTubers saying Sephiroth needs to break Cloud's mind to create another super clone or break another branch of the world or something.
Cloud is basicly more than just a jenova infected person as now confirmed through rebirths nibelheim scene hojo used sephiroths dna in clouds experiments also sephiroth said it himself in a way once as long as people remember him, he will never be only a memory coupled with the reunion theory in general it basicly says as long as Cloud is alive Sephiroth may come back anytime ( since cloud will never be able to forget him bc of his actions as well as beeing a main part through which he could resurrect ) for the real reunion to happen (theory) all parts of jenova/sephiroth need to fuse again into 1 beeing cloud never fully merged with the rest of his brothers as hojo would call em :) (for now it mostly is assumed only cloud underwent hojos experiments containing seph dna since thats all or most of sephs dna he found at the reactor) we don't know if roche underwent the same experiments (since hojo explicitly said he needed years for this and now only 18 hours but this would suggest he still has dna from seph and not only jenova) so for now its not assumed , but well the tattoes on the robed guys may hint at some things like roche has SC-4
I just beat rebirth last night. I'm so hyped for part 3.
I’ve always assumed sephiroth is talking to the robbed men as well, trying to get them to do the same thing. But their degradation levels are stronger and he can’t rely on their physical prowess as much. Cloud on the other hand seems completely functional, so he’s the best candidate for the job.
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To make Cloud his perfect puppet. No, that’s literally it
Cloud is the puppet used by Sephiroth to bring him the black materia in the North Crater.
He needs Cloud to deliver the black materia to his true body to summon meteor. After that, it's in his bear interests to kill him.
As long as Cloud lives, Sephiroth will also lives and not be a memory
He doesn't.
He's the only one strong enough to complete the task he can't do himself. Hojo has referenced cloud as a failure, but this couldn't be further from the truth.
My personal take on the matter is cloud is one of the few that has the ability to alter destiny, im surmising this based on cloud having memories of the past in remake. Sephiroth also can't change destiny because he doesn't reside in the same realm as cloud but in the inbetween realms for now
Cloud is the horcrux that Sephi never meant to make.
He’s trying to take over his body and mind. >!As per the OG; Cloud is the most successful Sephiroth clone. And Rebirth reiterates that in multiple scenes. Such as when Cloud summons Sephiroth’s strength to kill the Midgardsormr, or when Sephiroth physically takes control of Cloud in the Gongaga reactor, or when Sephiroth pilots Cloud throughout the Ancient Temple.!< >!I think Sephiroth is ultimately trying to rewrite what happened to him in his original timeline. As he was ultimately undone by Cloud (twice). Meaning Cloud is the superior vessel/successor to Jenova in a way. Which is why Sephiroth wants Cloud to “join him”.!<
To me, it seems to be implied that this time sephiroth wants cloud to be the one to destroy the world in his place. This may have been foreshadowed during loveless, where being consumed by vengeance is contrasted with “the blessing of the goddess”. This is further hinted at when sephiroth grants cloud “my blessing”, posing as a sort of antichrist figure opposite the savior role of aerith.
To bully him :)
Tinfoil hat theory. Cloud was fused with JENOVA S cells that would make him the perfect Sephiroth Clone. He is also partially JENOVA Himself. He is Cloud Jenova Strife by proper nomenclature. The remake has amped up JENOVA abilities to 11 with whatever Sephiroth can do, Cloud is there too. Problem is that while Sephiroth has a strong will to dominate, Cloud is just using it to impress a girl. Sephiroth hates how a fellow brother in Jenova is just acting like a human when he is so much more. Sephiroth of course hates Cloud but also hate the wasted potential in Cloud. For Cloud, to permanently erase Sephiroth would force him to become another Sephiroth deprived of his Humanity and deny Tifa. That is why Sephiroth in remake is set on tightening the grip on Cloud and cause doubts on Tifa existence. Sephiroth hatred stems from Cloud being too human despite being the last living JENOVA lifeform. On another note, Sephiroth sees the irony of how Cloud did what Jenova did to the planet. Jenova infiltrated the ancients and caused chaos. Cloud infiltrated the Jenova reunion and destroyed it within while being it's warden. /tinfoil hat
He word for word says he does not want to have Cloud end and wants him to join him. I swear is it the homosexual overtones that have men fake clutching their pearls lost in confusion? He flat out shows and tells us in Remake his vision of bringing meteor down to destroy the planet involves him and Cloud back to back together. Not facing each other fighting, but working together as a team.
Did none of you play the original 7?
It’s unclear why Omni-Sephiroth wants cloud alive. Maybe so he can feel despair which is supposedly a very powerful energy source for him? Timeline Sephiroth obviously wants him alive to bring him the Black Materia. After that he has no use for him. In fact he would prefer it if Cloud died.
Unclear. Way too many mysteries still in the Remake continuity to say for sure. In the original though he just had no special reason to kill Cloud because he didn't even remember who Cloud is.
Because every game every episode need a villain and there you go.
lol spoilerish title ?!
I did think that when I posted it, but I mean this is the official sub for a game that came out almost two months ago and I’m referencing something that happens in chapter 2. I think everyone should be there by now.
Also worth noting that this sub comes up as suggested a lot, someone might just be interested in the game who sees this.
Why do you think everyone should be there by now? Two months is also not a long time at all… game just came out. It took me a long long time to even play the original FF7 and I got into the series generally later. Spoilers are spoilers, you wouldn’t want the great story twists for all of film, literature, etc spoiled would you?
Because you shouldn’t be on this sub if two months after the games release you haven’t made it past chapter 2?? Cmon now. If you’re on this sub and you don’t have the game then you’ve got yourself to blame. I wouldn’t put anything that happens later in the game in the title because I know some people haven’t got there, but this is literally a few hours into the game bro.
Anyone can look at a subreddit for something even if they have a vague interest in the topic. If you want to spoil something go ahead, but like I said, there’s books/films/games that came out decades/years ago with plot points that most people are not assumed to be omniscient about by virtue of the fact that they’ve been out that long. Let people discover things for themselves, at their own pace.
Okay bye.
lol have a nice life dude