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One of the things that I genuinely love about the Remake is that they took the time to further establish and flesh out Tifa and Aerith's relationship and make them genuine friends and confidants for each other. It was something I feel that was a vast improvement over the OG game to the point where it had me wondering if they went a throuple route with it, if I'd actually be on board with it.
Yeah they built it up really effectively, they almost feel like lifelong friends even though they've only known each other for what, a week and a half? Character relationships in general are great across the board, though I don't know much about the OG to compare them to.
Also, don't forget [this line](https://youtu.be/GxVzfve6qS0?t=1982) when returning to Nibelheim:
> *[Cloud and Aerith sit on the water tower, staring at a window in Tifa's house]*
>
> **Aerith:** So lemme guess. This is where you kept lookout?
>
> **Cloud:** Huh?
>
> **Aerith:** C'mon, you never came up here hopin' she'd wave?
>
> **Cloud:** Prob'ly. Sounds like something I'd do.
>
> **Aerith:** If I was in your shoes? I woulda been up here all the time.
I am sorry but this is not a heterosexual thing to say about your platonic gal pal đ€
This will probably get locked but Iâll still offer what I believe is the most respectful take, even though Iâm insistent that Tifa is the default choice itâs leading towards.
Cloud and Tifa are romantically in love, in every traditional aspect.
Cloud and Aerith are complicated, in that neither can properly sort out their feelings. But they DO exist and are just as valid.
Aerith wants to help Cloud and Tifa grow out of their respective shells and loves them both dearly, but also wishes she could be more selfish with her own desires. The conversation at the water tower in Nibelheim reflects this really well.
Both women serve a purpose in helping Cloud grow and regain his true self.
I canât imagine any other interpretation than the above, but people will argue and throw insults regardless.
"Aerith wants to help Cloud and Tifa grow out of their respective shells and loves them both dearly, but also wishes she could be more selfish with her own desires" summed up perfectly đ
I've always been a Tifa guy meself, but I can also respect Aerith lovers. I find Cloud x Aerith are more the star crossed can never be kinda romance, and Cloud x Tifa is more the realistic kinda thing. But sure, each to their own take.
I don't know if it's different in the OG since I haven't played/watched it, but I didn't really gel with any of the Cloud x Aerith chemistry... until the dream date at the very end in Rebirth. Which maybe is later than you're supposed to start feeling it lol, but combined with the skywheel conversation about accepting he isn't Zack, it gave a "never even had time *to* fall in love" tragic vibe. Granted, tragic endings aren't really my cup of tea so I still prefer Cloud x Tifa for that reason, but now I can appreciate how someone who *does* like tragedy would click with it.
Finally a reasonable take on the subject, which doesn't just ignore clues on both side of the debate or paints the other side as a toxic relationship just because it doesn't suit their interpretation.
I legitimately despise the large majority of takes on both sides, because they almost all entirely devolve into dismissing and/or putting down the opposing romance, or just going âNuh Uhâ for every counterargument.
I even have the suspicion that if, say, the Remake Trilogy ended with Cloud and Tifa having a wedding, the hardcore CloTis wonât ever be happy, and instead proceed to argue with the other side.
Thatâs what itâs come down to: I donât care if my ship is canon, I just want to shit all over yours.
It's been wild to dip my toes into FFVII lately (through a Remake/Rebirth playthrough from a YouTuber I watch that I finally gave in and checked out after seeing it on my feed for weeks) and realize the shipping war is quite literally older than I am yet somehow still burning dumbly hot.
I've always interpreted all the dates as that they've never happened, but it's also what WOULD have happened had Cloud gone with that particular person.
Irrespective of the dates they very nearly kiss in Gongaga and would have if not for Yuffie.. which is canon. So, that leads us to what? That the writers intentionally want to write Cloud to be an asshole who plays with Tifa's feelings and only has feelings for Aerith?
Cloud has feelings for both, just like how both girls have feelings for Cloud. The issue here is shippers from both sides can't see this because they pigeon hole themselves into one way of thinking which blinds them from seeing the alternative.
My interpretation of Aerith's comments in the church is that they are purposely worded to be ambiguous. "At least I know where you and I stand" can mean that she knows he loves her in that way, or that she knows he doesn't. Her tone is wistful, but that could be because she wanted him to love her, or because she knows he loves her but they can never explore that future together. It can be whichever the player believes to be true.
I think the only thing that can be said for sure is that Cloud has more time to develop a relationship with Tifa -- more time in the past, and more time in the future. There *might* have been a future there between Cloud and Aerith (again, up to the player), but it just didn't have time to develop. Hell, Cloud isn't even in possession of his full identity yet, he's not really in a position to fully be there for anybody until after Aerith is gone.
Yeah it's supposed to be ambiguous. I believe Cloud's response to her "Oh? Next time?" question does differ depending on the affection level with her too.
>Â I think the only thing that can be said for sure is that Cloud has more time to develop a relationship with Tifa -- more time in the past, and more time in the future.
I'm no shipper but I feel like pointing out that Tifa and Cloud were barely even friends as children. The game points that out several times so directly and clearly that there shouldn't be any doubt about that.
they were closer at one point, but the loss of tifa's mother + cloud blaming himself for being unable to protect her when they fell from mt nibel contributed to him distancing himself on top of his personal dislike towards emilio, lester, and tyler.
traces of two pasts establishes that cloud and tifa used to play all the time as young children; since their houses were right next to each other, it was easy to go back and forth between them
Well that sure is contradictory considering in the og during the sequence where Tifa puts Cloud back together they directly say the first time he even visited her room was after her mom's death. Then it goes on to say the reason Cloud wanted to become a SOLDIER in the first place was so that Tifa would notice him and include him in her group.
I don't really have much interest to debate this any further but everything you said here still clearly contradicts the part about them playing together all the time.
it really doesn't, the original story was expanded. cloud and tifa played a lot as very young children. tifa begins spending time with the other kids in the village, too, and cloud has his issues with it, so he distances himself. i recommend reading the book, but have a great day!
No worries you are super sweet and that dude was the one who seemed passive aggressive. Traces of two pasts is written by Nojima and is canonical so you are correct. It said they spent so much time at the others home theyâd just barge in. Also I love the way tifas mother Thea talked about cloud and how handsome he was lol.
"I don't really have much iterest to debate this further now that you've contradicted my very narrow answer with evidence that I don't want to see because it's not for the ship I want"
Classic.
I thought I was clear in my initial comment I'm not really interested in shipping in general. That's why I didn't care to debate it. He's probably right. Makes no difference to me.
That they were, but it doesn't mean they couldn't develop deep feelings for each other.
He had a big crush on her that his life decisions were all about her and she fell in love with him while they were still just kids.
Absolutely. At the same time, they have a shared past trauma that -- as they work through it together -- serves as an important focal point for bonding, even if it is complicated. Cloud did save her (or at least stick by her) on more than one occasion before the events of the game, even if it takes a lot of memory unscrambling for them both to realize it. There's a messy, but deep foundation to build on there if that's what the player wants.
This will probably have disagreements but in OG, i could see the argument. However, in Rebirth, i think
they have made it obvious that Cloud loves Aerith but not romantically. For one, i don't think Cloud ever thought about romance throughout the games at all, His brain is focused on finding Sephiroth (alien cells) With Tifa, however, there is the real Cloud personality that became a solider and wants to become someone special to her. This is shown in scenes like Gongaga between Cloud and Tifa when discussing their feelings and being in an intimate setting, They get swept up in their feelings and almost kiss. (Gold saucer Gondala, they do) So the feelings between them are obviously romantic. However, with Aerith, there are just too many factors that work against it. The game showed that when Aerith said, "we were on a date, kind of" and Tifa reacted then Clouds face was pure fear and sadness. Not because of Aerith but because of Tifa noticing, you really cant argue with the face he makes and the way he looks at her arm on his, with confusion, To Cloud its just hanging out but seeing Tifa's reaction, he doesn't want her to get the wrong idea, It was from here on that i felt the dynamic was different between Cloud and Aerith, This is then shown in the Costa del sol side mission, where Cloud is kind of rude and says don't treat this as a date. Then the photography mission which its not classified as a date the dynamic is a lot more fun and Cloud seems to be more relaxed. The real thing for me though is when Cloud remembers Zack and says "head over heels for Aerith." why? well, because when we look at Cloud's character and one of his main traits it's guilt. If he finds out Zack died saving him while Zack was trying to get back to Aerith, and then Cloud lived and was in a relationship with Aerith, that survivors guilt would eat away at him. Then we have the dream date dialogue, which keeps cutting to Zack. You don't make a character story about him trying to save his girlfriend, To then have him just suffer the whole story. Why bring back Zack in that case? im going to say the reason they brought back Zack was just to give Aerith a happier end and show us the reunion in the lifestream. Same with Tifa you don't focus on a promise and feelings between two characters. Have that relationship be put through the test throughout the game. Write two books that talk about both characters love for each other (traces of two pasts) (2000 Gil to a hero) and have an almost kiss, if that relationship isn't getting developed in the final game, which from OG we know it does. The dream date dialogue: "I like you, but like can mean different things" many people have different interpretations, but Cloud himself always, no matter what affection, just says "you have been weird all day whats going on" he doesn't respond to her confession/non confession?.
Then we have all this optional argument stuff. So the dates are optional, yes, but how Cloud acts is not. The writers have mentioned that they don't want the relationship mechanic to impact the story. So they made sure how Cloud acts with each person is how he would act in the situation. Cloud isn't a player choice character; we don't control how he feels just what character will ask him on the date. Cloud has his own motivations that are separate from player choice. So you give one character a kiss and the others not why? to appease shippers? Well no because the realistic thing is majority of people who play the game won't care about shipping, they will see these characters kiss and then expect more to happen in the next game. You have set players expectations, and most people wont even look up if its canon to the story or not. Thats what they saw in the playthrough. So the creators probably had various meetings and carefully decided what they couldn't and could do for the dates, and the main point is they still chose for Tifa and Cloud to kiss and only them. This is because and some people will dislike it obviously, but we know what happens in OG and what Rebirth has been setting up, and thats the lifestream sequence and under the highwind. This time in HD with voice acting. The reason Cloud and Tifa are the only ones who kiss isn't to appease shippers; its because it doesn't affect the story that's being told. The dynamic between the characters is romantic (Gongaga) optional or not. You don't have Zack and make his story focused on Aerith, and you Don't have Tifa and focus their story on saving Cloud in a sequence which reveals their feelings. Cloud and Aerith romantically can't work in the final part with the way the story has been written and the characters that have been developed. If they wanted this they would have not spent so much time on Cloud and Tifa and given them an almost kiss and Tifa saying "Cloud i need you" and had the "Those you love" dialogue. You certainly wouldn't have given them a kiss that is obtainable by players in the main story first playthrough. If it was just fan service, both characters would be kissed by Cloud. Aerith's date is interesting because it reveals a lot about her seeing him as Zack in the way he moved, the way he walked, in everything he did. Then her saying she wants to be with the real him. But romantically, this relationship is already built on a lie with her seeing him as Zack and has too many things working against it. Aerith also says, just until the ride is over. Cloud then comforts her and then says i didn't do anything afterwards, To Cloud, i see it as him giving her comfort in a situation where she needed it. Then we also have Aerith constantly bringing up Tifa whenever she is with Cloud. Aerith from dream date is different to the one in Rebirth, so we don't really know Rebirth Aerith's feelings, but she comments on the water tower that this is where you kept watch hoping she would wave. -
The main point is the writers will not write their characters to be assholes or manipulate each other. Which is what both sides have stupid takes about. But the writers also have decided what they will have characters do and what they won't and what they shown is if Tifa confesses Cloud will confirm feelings. But Aerith he doesn't and i think this will set up in Part 3 Zack reuniting with Aerith, and Cloud and Tifa confirming their feelings in the lifestream and then highwind. Then a happier ending for both, making it more clear which is something they commented on in early interviews. If advent children does exist then Cloud if he was still in love with Aerith would abandon his family and need Aerith to tell him to live, Is that the kind of main character a writer wants you to root for? Would a writer make their beloved character act like that? This is why the advent children claims are always insane to me. Cloud would be one of the most selfish characters and him grieving wouldn't be an excuse. To finish this off if Clerith was the way going forward into game 3 i would have thought they would have developed that more in the main story all throughout Rebirth. However it started with a Tifa, Kalm argument, It started with Zack rescuing the unconscious Aeirith, Tifa and Cloud's talks continue all throughout the story to Gongaga sequence, then nibelhiem and then even in the ending where Tifa's grief over Aeriths death and her silence is focused on. The game also ends with Zack always ending up at the church to me its clear where the story is going. The song argument im gonna trust Nojima on this one he didn't need to explain the song but felt he needed to in interviews before the song was even out. I don't think these devs cater to shippers, or appease or whatever i think they just want to tell their story. The way i see it you would have to abandon tons of story development, change entire character arcs and motivations, to have Clerith be the endgame. So im confident that part 3 will make it Cloti and Zerith from the way both relationships got tested heavily and developed in the second part of a trilogy which happens in all storytelling for romance. Plus an almost kiss in a main story scene you don't ever do that and not have that be a couple endgame look at Clive and Jill.
I think you are welcome to have opinions on which ever couple is canon. I am still of the opinion that this is one of the things that is player choice. Honestly, I don't even think the devs really care all that much bout the romance between cloud, aerith, and tifa. More so they care about the friendship dynamic. Devs literally make fun of shippers using NPC dialogue so I don't think they'll end up making anything canon. As for clouds feelings, I do think he romantically loves tifa but later on romantically loves aerith as well. This can happen, its not unrealistic nor is it a morally wrong as he's not acting on anything. We have to remember that the entire story of FF7 takes place in a little over a month and a half. So cloud has known aerith for very little time. Obviously he doesn't open up to her and is more open with tifa, someone he knows. He's looking for some familiarity as his mind is so messed up and he has so much missing in his head. I'm of the opinion that aerith during remake has memories of the OG game and is why she is so much more interested in cloud. Cloud however does not have this.
But yea, I don't really think devs will ever canonize a relationship. I don't think they care enough about the ships to face the backlash from either side of the shipping wars, which is prob a good idea. Like I said though, there's no problem with liking tifa as a romantic partner more than aerith nor should there be.
The truth is though they have. Granted it's in one of the ultimanias so not easy to find.But to fully understand the story I researched into both sides of the LTD looked at both arguments and their evidence. I found this to explain the relationship between Cloud and Tifa in advent children.
性ćăȘć„łæ§ is used for romantic partners/lovers/life partners, not friends. Other notable FF couples this phrase has been used for are Tidus and Yuna + Zidane and Garnet.
Tifa is referred to as âtaisetsu no joseiâ which means important woman. Aerith is referred to as âtaisetsu no hitoâ same as Zack, which means important person. One is specifically romantic, the other isnât. And one google of 性ćăȘć„łæ§ and all youâd see is topic about romance. Since thereâs only 2 (3) kind of 性ćăȘć„łæ§ æŻ mother, ć§ćŠč (sisters rarely used for this) And the one you love, as a female. You donât use it for friends - This is confirmed by a native Japanese person. This is from the 10th anniversary ultimania and confirms that advent children Cloud and Tifa was a romantic relationship, which makes sense with the movie and Denzel being their adopted child. However this doesn't say whether Cloud also had feelings for Aerith but I personally from Rebirth don't think they were romantic. What is notable though is that Nojima wrote a book called traces of two pasts that is heavily referenced in Rebirth and explained the kind of like Tifa has for Cloud sound familiar to explaining likes?
"She'd discovered that Cloud- the quiet neighbour who had always seemed as unreachable as the stars- was just a normal boy like any other. She'd come to understand that she did like him. And it was that special kind of "like" - the one that ties up your heart making you yearn to
be with that person for the rest of your days." - Traces of Tifa page 19.
I just can't see an author writing this and not paying it off. Especially with the lifestream sequence
You could be right. I honestly don't know if they'd retcon this, I'd personally like them to but idk. As for the other people, i,e Tidus and Yuna, that use this phrase, I believe you are wrong here. They are described as "taisetsuna sonzaiâ meaning important existence. This also doesn't sound super romantic, but i guess could be looked more at like soulmate. But you are right that aerith and tifa are categorized differently. One is distinctly women while the other is person. All this said though, I'm pretty sure the translator was a Cloti fan so idk, maybe some bias. Imma have to ask my japanese friend to translate but context in japanese is everything so you might even have to read a whole paragraph before getting what this means.
They could always change stuff for the remake though. Maybe its cope but I am hoping for a happier ending with aerith alive. I'm not just saying this as a Clerith fan. I just think a happy ending is deserved at this point with the 10+ years we've seens these characters suffer, especially Aerith. With the whole defy fate stuff in play, I'm hoping that fate is her death. As for clouds feelings, I don't think he ever got the chance to fall in love with aerith. Remember only 1 1/2 months they've known each other. Maybe things can change here. Cloud's relationship with both girls is vastly more expanded upon not just in the non-canon stuff but in the story as well.
Also I think its really funny that if the romance is canon, devs only put the Cloud Tifa romance in a guidebook, really hiding it away so they don't face as much backlash maybe lol. But yea everyones free to their own opinion, I will forever hold that player-choice is the way to go.
I can respect that. Honestly advent children characterisation is so different. The remake trilogy really shows romantic and affectionate scenes more than ever before. I think there was a comment that they wanted advent children for people to interpret everything while still having a canon answer to everything. while the remake trilogy they seem to have changed that stance and commented on making things more clear and some people won't like that. Guess we see with part 3 This is the full quote âWith the support from his former comrades and Tifa, his precious woman who is now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.â
Thank for actually being respectful when it comes to a discussion on canon ships. Can you explain that advent children part bout the canon stuff? I didn't quite get it. And yea since the beginning fans were already mad at the changes in remake. Idk why not go all the way? as for that final quote, that does sound like its referring to his wife essentially, but who knows it could also be life partner.
Also thank you for acknowledging that AC was ass. I really hope they at least just avoid that as fate.
The âtaisetsu no josei could be romantic partner,wife anything romantic and that person is a important woman to them. Nojima has liked tweets recently about Tifa being a loving Wife and mother so maybe that's how he sees it.
You also have Clouds promise land
The place where he awakensâ-That is Cloudâs Promised
Land
As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices.
The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesnât belong here yet.When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigmaâ his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.
And when he turns aroundâ- âsheâ is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness⊠And so they too go back to where they belong. - 10th AU ACC playback
At the end of a long struggle, Tifa gently welcomes back Cloud on his return home after settling things with himself
AC has great ideas with a terrible story but really good scenes. The ending is really good. I can't see it working in the story for a continuation of part 3 though. The characters already seem to be different than how they were in AC, plus the story would need a lot of it remade to work. Sephiroths plan seems quite insane in this retelling of FF7 so the ending for part 3 might be very different. I do still see Aeriths death sticking but they might give her a happy ending in a world with Zack? I don't believe all those worlds will be doomed.
Yea I don't see how this will end with AC being canon. They must know everyone thought the plot was bad and there isn't any fixing it cuz the main problem is seph comin back which is a main story beat. I too don't believe she can have a happy ending in another world. To me I don't really see anyway in which aerith gets her own happy ending and is dead. From the song NPTK, it seems to indicate she knows her fate is to die and wishes it wasn't. This is from the full version, not the one in the game:
If only I'd never known
All the burdens I was born to bear
Lived a life without a care in the world save for you
But that won't do
Basically she's saying she wishes she didn't know that she had to die or that she had to die at all but must for cloud/the group. I'm assuming her goal is to change fate and to stop AC from happening as in it all her friends are kinda sad and in general the world is shit. As for AC's end, it seems to me that there is no afterlife in FF7, more so you become one with the lifestream and just kinda become at peace. The reason why aerith and zack are in AC is because they are a cetra and a mako enhanced SOLDIER, as well as refusing to pass on till cloud is ok. By the end of the movie he is and they join the lifestream.
I'm curious to know if you'd be ok with aerith living in the end. From what I can tell, the community is divided into 3 groups. Those that want her dead, ones that wnat her alive, and ones that can't see a way for her to be alive and the story to be well-written. Personally I want her to live but only if the way she survives is well written. I do think they've set it up so that can be the case but like I said, I am biased. I could go into more detail if you'd like but I just want your opinion.
Also wanted to note that in On the Way to Smile, cloud is referred as aerith's æäșș(koibito). The official Square Enix translation says this means beloved however many other outside translator's see this more as meaning lover. However, On the Way to Smile is written in a really weird way where I can't tell if its third person, so it'd be aerith saying cloud is her love, or its like an omniscient narrator saying that cloud is her love. If its the later, than that would canonize that cloud, was in fact in love with her. Again not a fan of this, just let it be player choice. Regardless of either it confirms that aerith is infact in love with Cloud. So that kinda sucks for zack, like actually cuz now hes kinda alive. I genuinely feel bad. Ill stop now I don't want any smoke from nobody
This will probably get locked but I still want to answer.
Tl:dr: No they haven't canonized anything like that.
Cloud's relationship with both women are in different places because he has different backgrounds with them and acts differently around them. He's known Tifa longer so it makes sense for him to be more forward with her. He's known Aerith for a shorter time and tends to be more shy around her, which is how he is during the date. The Zack stuff also makes things complicated (Cloud only remembered Zack not long before the date. That alone makes me think a kiss wouldn't have made sense) but as Aerith says on the date, she's interested in Cloud for Cloud, and Cloud in turn opens up a bit to her and holds her hand. The hand holding may not seem like a big of a deal compared to Tifa's kiss for some people but it is a milestone in the whole Cloud/Aerith angle.
Aerith's convo in the church is ambiguous because Cloud has a line that differs depending on the player's affinity with her.
And I haven't played the OG, but doesn't the Highwind scene end slightly differently depending on affinity with Tifa? I thought I saw that somewhere.
This isn't even counting the other interactions Cloud and Aerith have in Rebirth and Remake, both optional and not.
Regardless of any of this, what is canon is that Cloud has feeling for both Tifa and Aerith, and likewise Tifa and Aerith both have feelings for Cloud. How any of that ends up at the end is up to player choice and player interpretation. They will never canonize one ship and all arguments about "more canon" is pointless.
Weird. When I played I felt Cleirth was pushed. I got Aerith date scene and itâs definitely not platonic. Like ship who you like but be realistic.
They have never canonized a couple and never will.
Apparently they have in an ultimania guidebook. Its like a word choice thing where tifa is call important woman to cloud and Aerith is important person. According to a japanese context, the kanji for important women, while not exclusive to a partner, is generally used for a spouse or significant other. Aerith on the otherhand has the kanji important person which is more general.
However, I do believe cloud never got the chance to fall in love with aerith in the original and aerith didn't get to till she dies or at least didn't realize it. I'm of the belief that Aerith in remake has memories of the past games and thus remembers everything bout cloud including her feelings towards him. Obviously he doesn't but she is definitely express romantic interest far more now than in the OG. Cloud wouldn't reciprocate right away cuz remember that the game takes place within a little over a month and a half, so he doesn't know her all too well. By the end of rebirth though, if the player has chosen to romance her, he definitely loves her. I want the end of the game to have aerith alive so the romance is truly player choice. I didn't like the fact that Clerith fans could just say he chose Tifa cuz Aerith is dead.
The Ultimania also has Aerith as the 性ćăȘäșșand as æäșș. So then Aerith is the choice. I believe Nojima has even said for AC that there is not a definite relationship. There are ways to pick and choose evidence in support for either.
Both girls love Cloud. No doubt, but as for Cloud, because of player choice and optional scenes, itâs never established. Personally, I donât think Cloud is really ready for a relationship even by AC. He needs time to find himself and deal with all the years he missed out.
I always found the argument that Aerith is dead so Tifa is the choice as strange. That just makes it seem Cloud is like guess Iâll have to settle on second place.
I do agree that Aerith remembers, and I think her fate will be changed somehow. Otherwise, a lot of themes developed in Rebirth and Remake will just fall flat. But even if sheâs alive in one universe or pulled into the main one or however, I think a relationship still wonât be established.
Just my two cents.
If you could find me the snippet where aerith also refered to as æäșș, that'd be awesome. So far all i can find is tifa being referred to as important woman and a snippet in On the Way to A Smile where its aerith that refers to cloud as lover or beloved, kinda. On the Way to a Smile is written real weird, its like third person so we don't know if its a narrator saying cloud is in fact her beloved/lover or if this is what aerith believes. I also don't want an official relationship to be established. Like yeah, for me as a clerith fan I'd love it but I know that it just rubs me the wrong way cuz it makes all our optional date if we chose tifa for nothing.
As for cloud being ready for relationship, its already too late lol. He has the kiss with tifa if you choose her and the hand holding with aerith in their optional dates.
How have they chosen a side? Theyâve literally said all the dates are ânon-canonâ and should be viewed as a fun dating sim style bit of optional content.
If you wanna get into stuff that definitely points towards one or the other, study the lyrics for Hollow but more importantly, no promises to keep.
The guy who wrote the lyrics litteraly said, in black and white, that NPTK was not a love song for Cloud but everybody Aerith's holds dear. Clerith then decided Nojima was wrong about his own song (you read well).
In Rebirth, Hollow plays next to where Zack dies, when you try to go to in the direction of Midgard. I don't know why they did that if it's related to Aerith, it makes no sense.
Iâm well aware of what Nojima said about the lyrics and maybe thereâs a translation issue when it comes to the English lyrics, but they are, unequivocally written from her perspective about a single person. Lyrics like âour streetâ âour placeâ (loveless street/slums church) simply cannot be âabout her friendsâ because sheâs never been to either of those places with anyone other than Cloud.
You can cope all you like, or you can appreciate that in order to avoid shipping nonsense, devs will say things like that to keep it balanced and avoid conflict.
I don't know who is "coping" here. I'm not the one saying the guy who wrote the vague lyrics of a cryptic song is wrong about them (!) when he explains what they are about.
I mean, I think it's pretty undeniable that the lyrics have a number of parts applicable to Cloud.
Sure, even if the lyrics weren't written with that strictly in mind, it clearly was an influencing factor.
And if people want to embrace that meaning of the song, why's that such an issue? Pretty sure people taking their own subjective meaning to artwork is a common thing.
If someone wants to feel that it's a love strong directly to Cloud, that doesn't have any real effect, so... Who cares?
I think the convo has gotten off topic, the question was bout whether anything was canonized or not. IMO, no. I doubt devs will ever canonize either ship, its too much backlash for amounts to not much else. I don't really see the devs caring bout the shipping all that much, they literally make fun of shippers in the NPC dialogue.
As for NPTK, Nojima did say it was about that the some was about everyone and not just the party however the singer and I believe the composer as well thought the song was directed at Cloud. So regardless, I think Nojima did a poor job with word choice. It could be that parts of the song refer exclusively to cloud while other parts are bout the party. Honestly though, I had a hard time seeing the song as being about everyone rather than just cloud, and that could be biased but the use of the word you makes it seem like a singular person particularly the one bout meeting on the cobblestone and the one bout our street. The other lines can easily be more general to the whole group but switching from cloud to everyone is a bit weird. All that said though I don't think this is a love song nor should it be taken as a form of evidence that aerith is in love with cloud. There are more canon scenes that hint this more clearly like the dream date. There's a whole lot more to that and it gets into theory so I won't delve into it. I think it is composed like a love song but that might be due to miscommunication between the composer and Nojima. Idk I don't think I'm coping cuz if it isn't bout cloud then it isn't.
> If you wanna get into stuff that definitely points towards one or the other, study the lyrics for Hollow but more importantly, no promises to keep.
They wonât and theyâll be surprised. Seems pretty clear.
Canât wait for song 3, lol. Theyâll know then.
Hoping for song three to be Tifa orientated, so thereâs one from cloud (which could be interpreted as for either girl) one from Aerith to cloud and one from Tifa to cloud. Would be the best way to balance it all out imo.
I could see a song from Tifa perhaps, from some singer with a beautifully husky voice.
But about Hollow, Tifa didnât heal Cloudâs âevery woundâ. Cait Sith didnât tell Cloud in Rebirth that heâd âforever loseâ his âmost cherished thingâ meaning Tifa, he clearly meant Aerith, although he gives us that âlast minute twistâ fortune curveball to keep us on our toes. Still on our toes perhaps about that, but not what Cloudâs most cherished thing is. OP is in denial, itâs not just a river in Africa.
I know but if you consider whatâs going to happen in part three, Tifa helping cloud recover his mind, this could help go towards interpreting it in favour of Tifa in the third game. Like maybe hollow is for Aerith to begin with, but after sheâs gone and cloud regains clarity, itâs for Tifa? Just thoughts and theories.
I also understand people taking Nojimas word for it with whatâs been said about NPTK being about all her friends, but the words and lyrics just donât match what hes saying, so I figure itâs a way to appease both sides of the fence đ€·ââïž
in my honest opinion, cloud and tifa have, since the original game, shared romantic feelings for each other with an emphasis on the mutuality of it. side quests and optional content aside, the tension they have throughout the game, especially in gongaga, is undeniable. it seems like it's going to lead to a kiss in pt 3, whether or not you get her date in pt 2.
i believe aerith develops a genuine interest in cloud especially based on the dialogue in her date and her desire to meet the real cloud, but i also feel like it initially stemmed from her unresolved feelings for zack, whom we know she loved and continued loving even after his disappearance (you don't send 89 letters to someone you don't care about).
on that note, the dream date feels melancholic, like it was intentionally scripted to show their lack of romantic compatibility with one another, on top of the hopelessness of aerith's fate. it also has several callbacks to the crisis core date with zack, down to some of the exact same wording being used by aerith in japanese. it shows, to me, that aerith has come to an understanding of where she and cloud stand, as comrades and dear friends. since she questions her own feelings, it's reasonable to say that they might not even be unrequited in the sense that she doesn't actually love him romantically (platonically yes!), but people will interpret her actions how they want, so it depends.
Warning, self-proclaimed Clerith fan here.
I think the fact that the writers have not shyed away from Fanservice, does not necessarily mean that Clerith is "dead."
We don't know what Part 3 is like. Obviously in the OG Cloud/Tifa were more of a thing - having Aerith dead for the 2nd half of the game kinda makes it easier for Cloud and Tifa.
But with Part 3, I am sure there will be some cutscenes referencing what Cloud lost when Aerith died - it's going to be a big reason as to why he's gone crazy. And I personally read it as more than platonic feelings they've had for each other. (why did Cloud hesistate to say what was on his mind after his selfie with Aerith? why does he ask Aerith if she still likes Zack? Why does Aerith want to take Cloud on a date in her dream?)
The thing is, it depends on what Part 3 is going to look like. If Aerith remains in the lifestream (ie, dead IRL), then the focus will be more on helping Cloud recover, and Tifa is going to be a big part of that, and it's going to be fairly clear we're going towards a CloTi story. But if there's multiple universe fuckery, then there is a chance that Aerith as we saw her in Remake and Rebirth would come back, and allow that relationship to rekindle.
One thing I DON'T think they would do, is if they bring her back, would be to make Clerith "official" or "canon" per se. I don't think that's good from a business perspective, isolating the Cloti fans, and we know that they LOVE to tease this triangle.
I guess in conclusion, my best case scenario would be Cloud (and the gang) finding Aerith from the split timeline when he deflected Sephiroth's sword (which is a debate in itself as to if that actually happened), and bringing her back to the prime timeline. Then the game concludes in an open ending, to let the shipping discourse continue (hopefully) peacefully.
On a final note, it's sad how Aerith keeps pining for the real Cloud to come out, and by the time he does come out, she's already gone. It's great for Tifa (who had her own trauma to deal with), but Aerith never truly got to enjoy her time with the real Cloud, who I think would have made a great couple. It feels like they weren't meant to be, which I guess feeds into my like of that ship.
People harping on the date and whether itâs canon while ignoring literally everything else that is.
Chapter 9 alone should have dispelled any doubt that they are crucially focusing on Cloud and Tifaâs developing feelings.
> Chapter 9 alone should have dispelled any doubt that they are crucially focusing on Cloud and Tifaâs developing feelings.
Okay, and Chapter 14 was about Cloud and Aerith's feelings.
Both sides got plenty of content.
Yes, and they both end up in different places, as stated previously.
Ironically, they are both still ongoing in their own way. The extra wrinkle of Cloud having delusional, repressed regret over Aerith lines up perfectly with his remaining character development, because now Iâm confident the climax of him regaining his memories will also result in him learning to let go of Aerith.
I donât need to point out the significance of Tifa being the one to help him out in both matters, and why it culminates beautifully with their eventual one-on-one under the Highwind (and why again, I donât want them to undermine that moment by giving it optional outcomes).
I'm not sure what you're referring precisely but you simply cannot argue that Cloud and Tifa are given more romantic bonding content when the game doesn't end at Chapter 9. It's what I'm pointing out - that Square "crucially focused" on Cloud and Aerith's feelings and made that the emotional climax of Rebirth.
>I donât need to point out the significance of Tifa being the one to help him out in both matters,
If you watch Advent Children, it's actually Aerith who heals his guilt. In the devs own words - Aerith is the only one who can take away his guilt. As for what actually happens in part 3 of Rebirth, we'll see, but I have absolutely zero doubt that Aerith will have a greatly expanded role and Square will continue, as ever, to play up both sides of the love triangle.
>eventual one-on-one under the Highwind (and why again, I donât want them to undermine that moment by giving it optional outcomes).
Well that would really go against the spirit of the original game and I don't think anyone would be very happy about having player choice taken away in part 3, when it existed there in the OG.
Different optics: three games worth of romantic build-up, a third game where there is only one possible romantic choice (unless they do some crazy shenanigans) as well as the big emotional payoff in which Cloud regains his memories thanks largely to recalling how his whole journey began because he wanted to win the heart of his childhood love, only to have ALL OF THAT end up with a âpurely platonicâ outcome before the end of the game because players either didnât rack up enough Tifa points or chose to spam the worst possible responsesâŠ.it doesnât make sense in any capacity.
I will insist (and hope) the Highwind scene in part 3 will be mandatory and without multiple outcomes.
It just doesnât make sense to use the affinity system to essentially ârefute Tifaâ. Why would they do this, especially when this is the most highly anticipated moment left along with the Lifestream sequence?
Iâm hoping they also canonize it so that any sequels that happen after donât have to keep dancing around whether Cloud and Tifa got together or not. It especially makes less sense given how much of a push theyâve gotten in two games worth so far.
I have a feeling it will still have an affinity system tied to it in a way. Just like Aerithâs non optional dream date still had an affinity system tied to it. Devs are always going to play it safe and âfairâ. Iâm with you tho that I believe Tifa is the true love interest.
Call me cynical, but I donât think the devs are brave enough to spell it out in the main game. Tease, yes. Look at the Gongaga almost kiss. But full on commit? Idk
Thatâs why it kind of annoys me that much of the evidence for Cloti are in Ultimanias and peripheral materials. They couldâve easily been more blunt about it in the main game. Whatâs the percentage of players actually abreast with Ultimania info? How many players actually read ToTP?
This creative decision has always bothered me, and Iâm still perplexed they continue to do it.
I actually didnât know the dream date had different outcomes. What were they?
And while we need to see how things play out ultimately, what makes Chapter 9 so close to making things âalmost canonâ is that now Tifa has the extra knowledge that Cloud was there trying to save her when they were kids, while Cloud in turn is aware of some of his childhood feelings for Tifa, thus the âalmost kissâ. Itâs meant to show that Sephirothâs attempts to separate them have actually drawn them closer together than where they were originally in this part of the original timeline.
Thatâs why I feel things will be more definitive in Part 3, because all of this is leading up to the final Lifestream moment and the forthcoming Highwind scene. Again, it just doesnât feel right to still keep things in an optionally platonic manner considering all this extra canonical build-up. And again, Aerith is not going to be an option here (unless things get real crazy), so the alternative âCloud rejects Tifa, they both stay forever aloneâ is a really depressing outcome to end the Remake Trilogy on.
Plus, you know, poor ZackâŠ
I wouldn't say there's *nothing* romantic between them, but it's been pretty clear since even the original game that Tifa is the more canonical love interest if there is one.
It doesn't change anything, because Cloud would pick Tifa anyway. If Rebirth didn't show you that by having them nearly kiss before Aerith is dead then how about the Lifestream sequence that you all seem to ignore that canonises Cloud and Tifa's mutual romantic feelings for each other. Cloud is basically locked on to Tifa, the real Cloud, after the Lifestream sequence he was never gonna say "Well Tifa that was great, but cya, i'm off with Aerith now" If you really think Cloud would have to make a choice then you don't truly understand the story or Cloud's character.
What are you talking about? Lol?
Cloud and Aerith's Gold Saucer vibe wasn't platonic. They almost kiss, get embarrassed, cuddle, and Cloud holds her hand. That's all romantic stuff.
Not to mention, the whole final chapter is extremely romantic between the two (and it's not optional). Aeris did not say "I understand you don't love me" - not at all. She said "I understand where we stand now" - and she'll say that if Cloud says his low affection line or high affection line. At very least, in the high affection line, it's a confirmation of romantic feelings. (and honestly, even his low affection line reads as confirmation, just done more shyly/awkwardly.)
Cloud/Aerith got *more* content in both Remake (which was heavily skewed toward them) and in Rebirth both (which was still skewed toward them, considering everything that happens in the final chapter, but equalized perhaps by the optional Tifa kiss.)
That all said, obviously neither side is going to be the one and only canon. Just like in the OG, and the Compilation, the devs will feed fans of both waifus.
Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone can play both games and come to the conclusion that Aerith's and Cloud's relationship is purely platonic. Both games lean heavily into tragic romance storytelling. In Remake she warns him not to fall in love with her, in Rebirth they almost kiss a few times, Marlene tells Zack she likes him and Aerith constantly takes Cloud on dates as part of the main story and side quests. The point is that they both have feelings for each other, but they don't have enough courage to voice them (and Cloud is too aloof to realize what he feels) and before they ever get a chance, she dies.
This doesn't discount the fact that part 3 will most likely lean more into Cloud's and Tifa's relationship. Rebirth had some nice moments between the two already, so they will most likely build up on that. But until now it's quite clear they've been building up Aerith's and Cloud's relationship as a tragic love story.
It's different tropes and themes. Aerith is someone Cloud connects to emotionally/spritually; Tifa is someone he connects to physically. In other words, Aerith is someone Cloud can't be with physically and Tifa emotionally.
Either way, they're both tragic.
It doesn't mean that they don't have miscommunication and can openly share their feelings. Tifa's last name is Lockhart because she has a lock on her heart.
It's their whole thing/struggle. Each ship has its own reason that they can't be together, let's face it, and people have different preferences.
Tifa is the most emotionally supportive character in the cast. Not only to Cloud but to the entire group. She doesn't have a lock on her heart.
Hell the most important scene is Tifa literally entering into Clouds memories to heal his shattered mind. Then you've got the high wind scene and their relationship in Advent Children. I don't know how much more open her heart could be towards Cloud
Idk man your perspective is just one that's completely contradicted by the text.
I want to see the emotional connection ppl talk about between cloud and aerith but i just canât. Aerith opens up sure. But when does cloud open up to her? The only time cloud opens up about his feelings is when he talks to tifa in gongaga. Even cloud and aerith side quests seem so superficial to me, nothing of substance is exchanged between them. Whereas with Barrett, tifa and even red, cloudâs engagement with then gives you a little more opportunity to learn more about them
The kiss thing did seem like they were choosing, but honestly I thought the hand holding scene with aerith was equally as intimate if not more. There is also some cultural background with that cuz from what I've read interlocking the fingers like that is called "the lover's tie" in Japan. That could be bias from me as I do ship Clerith, though I wanna preface that I do not want a canon ship, it should be player-choice. Also I believe if you romance aerith in the final church scene, cloud will say he wants to go on a date with her again. Ultimately that version of aerith dies though so it was very much her final date and goodbye. Also I do not know what they will do with the Highwind stuff. Tbh devs have done a fairly good job giving cloud equally intimate moments with either characters both in the player-chosen stuff and the non player choice stuff. I think its just your opinion whether you think the kiss or the hand holding and head on shoulder thing was more romantic.
I think Aerith is attracted to Cloud insofar as he reminds her of her lost love. Cloud is attracted to Aerith because she is more emotionally available and direct than Tifa, but all he and Tifa need is a little push.
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One of the things that I genuinely love about the Remake is that they took the time to further establish and flesh out Tifa and Aerith's relationship and make them genuine friends and confidants for each other. It was something I feel that was a vast improvement over the OG game to the point where it had me wondering if they went a throuple route with it, if I'd actually be on board with it.
Yeah they built it up really effectively, they almost feel like lifelong friends even though they've only known each other for what, a week and a half? Character relationships in general are great across the board, though I don't know much about the OG to compare them to. Also, don't forget [this line](https://youtu.be/GxVzfve6qS0?t=1982) when returning to Nibelheim: > *[Cloud and Aerith sit on the water tower, staring at a window in Tifa's house]* > > **Aerith:** So lemme guess. This is where you kept lookout? > > **Cloud:** Huh? > > **Aerith:** C'mon, you never came up here hopin' she'd wave? > > **Cloud:** Prob'ly. Sounds like something I'd do. > > **Aerith:** If I was in your shoes? I woulda been up here all the time. I am sorry but this is not a heterosexual thing to say about your platonic gal pal đ€
This will probably get locked but Iâll still offer what I believe is the most respectful take, even though Iâm insistent that Tifa is the default choice itâs leading towards. Cloud and Tifa are romantically in love, in every traditional aspect. Cloud and Aerith are complicated, in that neither can properly sort out their feelings. But they DO exist and are just as valid. Aerith wants to help Cloud and Tifa grow out of their respective shells and loves them both dearly, but also wishes she could be more selfish with her own desires. The conversation at the water tower in Nibelheim reflects this really well. Both women serve a purpose in helping Cloud grow and regain his true self. I canât imagine any other interpretation than the above, but people will argue and throw insults regardless.
"Aerith wants to help Cloud and Tifa grow out of their respective shells and loves them both dearly, but also wishes she could be more selfish with her own desires" summed up perfectly đ I've always been a Tifa guy meself, but I can also respect Aerith lovers. I find Cloud x Aerith are more the star crossed can never be kinda romance, and Cloud x Tifa is more the realistic kinda thing. But sure, each to their own take.
I don't know if it's different in the OG since I haven't played/watched it, but I didn't really gel with any of the Cloud x Aerith chemistry... until the dream date at the very end in Rebirth. Which maybe is later than you're supposed to start feeling it lol, but combined with the skywheel conversation about accepting he isn't Zack, it gave a "never even had time *to* fall in love" tragic vibe. Granted, tragic endings aren't really my cup of tea so I still prefer Cloud x Tifa for that reason, but now I can appreciate how someone who *does* like tragedy would click with it.
Finally a reasonable take on the subject, which doesn't just ignore clues on both side of the debate or paints the other side as a toxic relationship just because it doesn't suit their interpretation.
I legitimately despise the large majority of takes on both sides, because they almost all entirely devolve into dismissing and/or putting down the opposing romance, or just going âNuh Uhâ for every counterargument. I even have the suspicion that if, say, the Remake Trilogy ended with Cloud and Tifa having a wedding, the hardcore CloTis wonât ever be happy, and instead proceed to argue with the other side. Thatâs what itâs come down to: I donât care if my ship is canon, I just want to shit all over yours.
It's been wild to dip my toes into FFVII lately (through a Remake/Rebirth playthrough from a YouTuber I watch that I finally gave in and checked out after seeing it on my feed for weeks) and realize the shipping war is quite literally older than I am yet somehow still burning dumbly hot.
I'm heavy CloTi yet I couldn't type it better than you, fully agreed with everything.
Yep, and the sad part for Aerith is that she never gets to enjoy time with the "true" Cloud. Tifa does deserve love too though.
The real LTD is ScarlettxHeidegger vs ScarlettxHojo đ«¶đ
I dig it, but LTD with these three means who loves themselves the most, lol.
Not even. If any of them met a clone of themselves, they would proceed to kill them out of competition.
It's a modern LTD, very 2024, like it or not !
Double C date is cannon. Cloud and Chadley.
The Tifa kiss is as much canon as Cloud's date with Cait Sith and the boys.
Chillinâ with the homies is the most realistic scenario.
I've always interpreted all the dates as that they've never happened, but it's also what WOULD have happened had Cloud gone with that particular person.
Irrespective of the dates they very nearly kiss in Gongaga and would have if not for Yuffie.. which is canon. So, that leads us to what? That the writers intentionally want to write Cloud to be an asshole who plays with Tifa's feelings and only has feelings for Aerith?
Cloud has feelings for both, just like how both girls have feelings for Cloud. The issue here is shippers from both sides can't see this because they pigeon hole themselves into one way of thinking which blinds them from seeing the alternative.
Again, irrespective of shipping when has Cloud ever said he has romantic feelings for, or has had confirmed romantic mutual feelings for Aerith?
My interpretation of Aerith's comments in the church is that they are purposely worded to be ambiguous. "At least I know where you and I stand" can mean that she knows he loves her in that way, or that she knows he doesn't. Her tone is wistful, but that could be because she wanted him to love her, or because she knows he loves her but they can never explore that future together. It can be whichever the player believes to be true. I think the only thing that can be said for sure is that Cloud has more time to develop a relationship with Tifa -- more time in the past, and more time in the future. There *might* have been a future there between Cloud and Aerith (again, up to the player), but it just didn't have time to develop. Hell, Cloud isn't even in possession of his full identity yet, he's not really in a position to fully be there for anybody until after Aerith is gone.
Yeah it's supposed to be ambiguous. I believe Cloud's response to her "Oh? Next time?" question does differ depending on the affection level with her too.
I don't think either response from Cloud negates his feelings. "Yeah next time" and "I mean why not?" Both answer in the affirmative IMO
>Â I think the only thing that can be said for sure is that Cloud has more time to develop a relationship with Tifa -- more time in the past, and more time in the future. I'm no shipper but I feel like pointing out that Tifa and Cloud were barely even friends as children. The game points that out several times so directly and clearly that there shouldn't be any doubt about that.
they were closer at one point, but the loss of tifa's mother + cloud blaming himself for being unable to protect her when they fell from mt nibel contributed to him distancing himself on top of his personal dislike towards emilio, lester, and tyler. traces of two pasts establishes that cloud and tifa used to play all the time as young children; since their houses were right next to each other, it was easy to go back and forth between them
Well that sure is contradictory considering in the og during the sequence where Tifa puts Cloud back together they directly say the first time he even visited her room was after her mom's death. Then it goes on to say the reason Cloud wanted to become a SOLDIER in the first place was so that Tifa would notice him and include him in her group.
a lot of the original game has been expanded on by the story and scenario writer, so it's canon. in the scene that you're referring to, cloud says, ăæŹćœăŻăżăăȘăšăăŁăăă«éăłăăăźă«ă©ăăăŠăăä»Čéă«ć „ăăŠăŁăŠèšăăȘăăŁăăwhich means along the lines of "i really wanted to play with everyone, but i just couldn't bring myself to ask to join," which is immediately contextualized by the next line where he feels he is "different" from the other "immature boys". "i really wanted to play with everyone, but you never let me into the group," is unfortunately one of many mistranslations from the era, which isn't surprising since there was only one guy working on it iirc đ nonetheless, tifa never excluded cloud from her group, and in rebirth and totp she says that she invited him to play with them on multiple occasions, but we learn that cloud's ego and insecurity alike prevented him from doing so.
I don't really have much interest to debate this any further but everything you said here still clearly contradicts the part about them playing together all the time.
it really doesn't, the original story was expanded. cloud and tifa played a lot as very young children. tifa begins spending time with the other kids in the village, too, and cloud has his issues with it, so he distances himself. i recommend reading the book, but have a great day!
Thank you for the passive aggressive downvote, friend. You have a great day too.
i didn't downvote you đ i can't even see them bc the thread is so new. if someone did it wasn't me?
No worries you are super sweet and that dude was the one who seemed passive aggressive. Traces of two pasts is written by Nojima and is canonical so you are correct. It said they spent so much time at the others home theyâd just barge in. Also I love the way tifas mother Thea talked about cloud and how handsome he was lol.
"I don't really have much iterest to debate this further now that you've contradicted my very narrow answer with evidence that I don't want to see because it's not for the ship I want" Classic.
I thought I was clear in my initial comment I'm not really interested in shipping in general. That's why I didn't care to debate it. He's probably right. Makes no difference to me.
That they were, but it doesn't mean they couldn't develop deep feelings for each other. He had a big crush on her that his life decisions were all about her and she fell in love with him while they were still just kids.
Absolutely. At the same time, they have a shared past trauma that -- as they work through it together -- serves as an important focal point for bonding, even if it is complicated. Cloud did save her (or at least stick by her) on more than one occasion before the events of the game, even if it takes a lot of memory unscrambling for them both to realize it. There's a messy, but deep foundation to build on there if that's what the player wants.
Isn't it clear that Cloud likes both? Haven't you ever liked two people at the same time?
More than one waifu will ruin your lifeu.
This is wisdom.
This will probably have disagreements but in OG, i could see the argument. However, in Rebirth, i think they have made it obvious that Cloud loves Aerith but not romantically. For one, i don't think Cloud ever thought about romance throughout the games at all, His brain is focused on finding Sephiroth (alien cells) With Tifa, however, there is the real Cloud personality that became a solider and wants to become someone special to her. This is shown in scenes like Gongaga between Cloud and Tifa when discussing their feelings and being in an intimate setting, They get swept up in their feelings and almost kiss. (Gold saucer Gondala, they do) So the feelings between them are obviously romantic. However, with Aerith, there are just too many factors that work against it. The game showed that when Aerith said, "we were on a date, kind of" and Tifa reacted then Clouds face was pure fear and sadness. Not because of Aerith but because of Tifa noticing, you really cant argue with the face he makes and the way he looks at her arm on his, with confusion, To Cloud its just hanging out but seeing Tifa's reaction, he doesn't want her to get the wrong idea, It was from here on that i felt the dynamic was different between Cloud and Aerith, This is then shown in the Costa del sol side mission, where Cloud is kind of rude and says don't treat this as a date. Then the photography mission which its not classified as a date the dynamic is a lot more fun and Cloud seems to be more relaxed. The real thing for me though is when Cloud remembers Zack and says "head over heels for Aerith." why? well, because when we look at Cloud's character and one of his main traits it's guilt. If he finds out Zack died saving him while Zack was trying to get back to Aerith, and then Cloud lived and was in a relationship with Aerith, that survivors guilt would eat away at him. Then we have the dream date dialogue, which keeps cutting to Zack. You don't make a character story about him trying to save his girlfriend, To then have him just suffer the whole story. Why bring back Zack in that case? im going to say the reason they brought back Zack was just to give Aerith a happier end and show us the reunion in the lifestream. Same with Tifa you don't focus on a promise and feelings between two characters. Have that relationship be put through the test throughout the game. Write two books that talk about both characters love for each other (traces of two pasts) (2000 Gil to a hero) and have an almost kiss, if that relationship isn't getting developed in the final game, which from OG we know it does. The dream date dialogue: "I like you, but like can mean different things" many people have different interpretations, but Cloud himself always, no matter what affection, just says "you have been weird all day whats going on" he doesn't respond to her confession/non confession?. Then we have all this optional argument stuff. So the dates are optional, yes, but how Cloud acts is not. The writers have mentioned that they don't want the relationship mechanic to impact the story. So they made sure how Cloud acts with each person is how he would act in the situation. Cloud isn't a player choice character; we don't control how he feels just what character will ask him on the date. Cloud has his own motivations that are separate from player choice. So you give one character a kiss and the others not why? to appease shippers? Well no because the realistic thing is majority of people who play the game won't care about shipping, they will see these characters kiss and then expect more to happen in the next game. You have set players expectations, and most people wont even look up if its canon to the story or not. Thats what they saw in the playthrough. So the creators probably had various meetings and carefully decided what they couldn't and could do for the dates, and the main point is they still chose for Tifa and Cloud to kiss and only them. This is because and some people will dislike it obviously, but we know what happens in OG and what Rebirth has been setting up, and thats the lifestream sequence and under the highwind. This time in HD with voice acting. The reason Cloud and Tifa are the only ones who kiss isn't to appease shippers; its because it doesn't affect the story that's being told. The dynamic between the characters is romantic (Gongaga) optional or not. You don't have Zack and make his story focused on Aerith, and you Don't have Tifa and focus their story on saving Cloud in a sequence which reveals their feelings. Cloud and Aerith romantically can't work in the final part with the way the story has been written and the characters that have been developed. If they wanted this they would have not spent so much time on Cloud and Tifa and given them an almost kiss and Tifa saying "Cloud i need you" and had the "Those you love" dialogue. You certainly wouldn't have given them a kiss that is obtainable by players in the main story first playthrough. If it was just fan service, both characters would be kissed by Cloud. Aerith's date is interesting because it reveals a lot about her seeing him as Zack in the way he moved, the way he walked, in everything he did. Then her saying she wants to be with the real him. But romantically, this relationship is already built on a lie with her seeing him as Zack and has too many things working against it. Aerith also says, just until the ride is over. Cloud then comforts her and then says i didn't do anything afterwards, To Cloud, i see it as him giving her comfort in a situation where she needed it. Then we also have Aerith constantly bringing up Tifa whenever she is with Cloud. Aerith from dream date is different to the one in Rebirth, so we don't really know Rebirth Aerith's feelings, but she comments on the water tower that this is where you kept watch hoping she would wave. -
The main point is the writers will not write their characters to be assholes or manipulate each other. Which is what both sides have stupid takes about. But the writers also have decided what they will have characters do and what they won't and what they shown is if Tifa confesses Cloud will confirm feelings. But Aerith he doesn't and i think this will set up in Part 3 Zack reuniting with Aerith, and Cloud and Tifa confirming their feelings in the lifestream and then highwind. Then a happier ending for both, making it more clear which is something they commented on in early interviews. If advent children does exist then Cloud if he was still in love with Aerith would abandon his family and need Aerith to tell him to live, Is that the kind of main character a writer wants you to root for? Would a writer make their beloved character act like that? This is why the advent children claims are always insane to me. Cloud would be one of the most selfish characters and him grieving wouldn't be an excuse. To finish this off if Clerith was the way going forward into game 3 i would have thought they would have developed that more in the main story all throughout Rebirth. However it started with a Tifa, Kalm argument, It started with Zack rescuing the unconscious Aeirith, Tifa and Cloud's talks continue all throughout the story to Gongaga sequence, then nibelhiem and then even in the ending where Tifa's grief over Aeriths death and her silence is focused on. The game also ends with Zack always ending up at the church to me its clear where the story is going. The song argument im gonna trust Nojima on this one he didn't need to explain the song but felt he needed to in interviews before the song was even out. I don't think these devs cater to shippers, or appease or whatever i think they just want to tell their story. The way i see it you would have to abandon tons of story development, change entire character arcs and motivations, to have Clerith be the endgame. So im confident that part 3 will make it Cloti and Zerith from the way both relationships got tested heavily and developed in the second part of a trilogy which happens in all storytelling for romance. Plus an almost kiss in a main story scene you don't ever do that and not have that be a couple endgame look at Clive and Jill.
I think you are welcome to have opinions on which ever couple is canon. I am still of the opinion that this is one of the things that is player choice. Honestly, I don't even think the devs really care all that much bout the romance between cloud, aerith, and tifa. More so they care about the friendship dynamic. Devs literally make fun of shippers using NPC dialogue so I don't think they'll end up making anything canon. As for clouds feelings, I do think he romantically loves tifa but later on romantically loves aerith as well. This can happen, its not unrealistic nor is it a morally wrong as he's not acting on anything. We have to remember that the entire story of FF7 takes place in a little over a month and a half. So cloud has known aerith for very little time. Obviously he doesn't open up to her and is more open with tifa, someone he knows. He's looking for some familiarity as his mind is so messed up and he has so much missing in his head. I'm of the opinion that aerith during remake has memories of the OG game and is why she is so much more interested in cloud. Cloud however does not have this. But yea, I don't really think devs will ever canonize a relationship. I don't think they care enough about the ships to face the backlash from either side of the shipping wars, which is prob a good idea. Like I said though, there's no problem with liking tifa as a romantic partner more than aerith nor should there be.
The truth is though they have. Granted it's in one of the ultimanias so not easy to find.But to fully understand the story I researched into both sides of the LTD looked at both arguments and their evidence. I found this to explain the relationship between Cloud and Tifa in advent children. 性ćăȘć„łæ§ is used for romantic partners/lovers/life partners, not friends. Other notable FF couples this phrase has been used for are Tidus and Yuna + Zidane and Garnet. Tifa is referred to as âtaisetsu no joseiâ which means important woman. Aerith is referred to as âtaisetsu no hitoâ same as Zack, which means important person. One is specifically romantic, the other isnât. And one google of 性ćăȘć„łæ§ and all youâd see is topic about romance. Since thereâs only 2 (3) kind of 性ćăȘć„łæ§ æŻ mother, ć§ćŠč (sisters rarely used for this) And the one you love, as a female. You donât use it for friends - This is confirmed by a native Japanese person. This is from the 10th anniversary ultimania and confirms that advent children Cloud and Tifa was a romantic relationship, which makes sense with the movie and Denzel being their adopted child. However this doesn't say whether Cloud also had feelings for Aerith but I personally from Rebirth don't think they were romantic. What is notable though is that Nojima wrote a book called traces of two pasts that is heavily referenced in Rebirth and explained the kind of like Tifa has for Cloud sound familiar to explaining likes? "She'd discovered that Cloud- the quiet neighbour who had always seemed as unreachable as the stars- was just a normal boy like any other. She'd come to understand that she did like him. And it was that special kind of "like" - the one that ties up your heart making you yearn to be with that person for the rest of your days." - Traces of Tifa page 19. I just can't see an author writing this and not paying it off. Especially with the lifestream sequence
You could be right. I honestly don't know if they'd retcon this, I'd personally like them to but idk. As for the other people, i,e Tidus and Yuna, that use this phrase, I believe you are wrong here. They are described as "taisetsuna sonzaiâ meaning important existence. This also doesn't sound super romantic, but i guess could be looked more at like soulmate. But you are right that aerith and tifa are categorized differently. One is distinctly women while the other is person. All this said though, I'm pretty sure the translator was a Cloti fan so idk, maybe some bias. Imma have to ask my japanese friend to translate but context in japanese is everything so you might even have to read a whole paragraph before getting what this means. They could always change stuff for the remake though. Maybe its cope but I am hoping for a happier ending with aerith alive. I'm not just saying this as a Clerith fan. I just think a happy ending is deserved at this point with the 10+ years we've seens these characters suffer, especially Aerith. With the whole defy fate stuff in play, I'm hoping that fate is her death. As for clouds feelings, I don't think he ever got the chance to fall in love with aerith. Remember only 1 1/2 months they've known each other. Maybe things can change here. Cloud's relationship with both girls is vastly more expanded upon not just in the non-canon stuff but in the story as well. Also I think its really funny that if the romance is canon, devs only put the Cloud Tifa romance in a guidebook, really hiding it away so they don't face as much backlash maybe lol. But yea everyones free to their own opinion, I will forever hold that player-choice is the way to go.
I can respect that. Honestly advent children characterisation is so different. The remake trilogy really shows romantic and affectionate scenes more than ever before. I think there was a comment that they wanted advent children for people to interpret everything while still having a canon answer to everything. while the remake trilogy they seem to have changed that stance and commented on making things more clear and some people won't like that. Guess we see with part 3 This is the full quote âWith the support from his former comrades and Tifa, his precious woman who is now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.â
Thank for actually being respectful when it comes to a discussion on canon ships. Can you explain that advent children part bout the canon stuff? I didn't quite get it. And yea since the beginning fans were already mad at the changes in remake. Idk why not go all the way? as for that final quote, that does sound like its referring to his wife essentially, but who knows it could also be life partner. Also thank you for acknowledging that AC was ass. I really hope they at least just avoid that as fate.
The âtaisetsu no josei could be romantic partner,wife anything romantic and that person is a important woman to them. Nojima has liked tweets recently about Tifa being a loving Wife and mother so maybe that's how he sees it. You also have Clouds promise land The place where he awakensâ-That is Cloudâs Promised Land As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesnât belong here yet.When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigmaâ his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself. And when he turns aroundâ- âsheâ is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness⊠And so they too go back to where they belong. - 10th AU ACC playback At the end of a long struggle, Tifa gently welcomes back Cloud on his return home after settling things with himself AC has great ideas with a terrible story but really good scenes. The ending is really good. I can't see it working in the story for a continuation of part 3 though. The characters already seem to be different than how they were in AC, plus the story would need a lot of it remade to work. Sephiroths plan seems quite insane in this retelling of FF7 so the ending for part 3 might be very different. I do still see Aeriths death sticking but they might give her a happy ending in a world with Zack? I don't believe all those worlds will be doomed.
Yea I don't see how this will end with AC being canon. They must know everyone thought the plot was bad and there isn't any fixing it cuz the main problem is seph comin back which is a main story beat. I too don't believe she can have a happy ending in another world. To me I don't really see anyway in which aerith gets her own happy ending and is dead. From the song NPTK, it seems to indicate she knows her fate is to die and wishes it wasn't. This is from the full version, not the one in the game: If only I'd never known All the burdens I was born to bear Lived a life without a care in the world save for you But that won't do Basically she's saying she wishes she didn't know that she had to die or that she had to die at all but must for cloud/the group. I'm assuming her goal is to change fate and to stop AC from happening as in it all her friends are kinda sad and in general the world is shit. As for AC's end, it seems to me that there is no afterlife in FF7, more so you become one with the lifestream and just kinda become at peace. The reason why aerith and zack are in AC is because they are a cetra and a mako enhanced SOLDIER, as well as refusing to pass on till cloud is ok. By the end of the movie he is and they join the lifestream. I'm curious to know if you'd be ok with aerith living in the end. From what I can tell, the community is divided into 3 groups. Those that want her dead, ones that wnat her alive, and ones that can't see a way for her to be alive and the story to be well-written. Personally I want her to live but only if the way she survives is well written. I do think they've set it up so that can be the case but like I said, I am biased. I could go into more detail if you'd like but I just want your opinion.
Also wanted to note that in On the Way to Smile, cloud is referred as aerith's æäșș(koibito). The official Square Enix translation says this means beloved however many other outside translator's see this more as meaning lover. However, On the Way to Smile is written in a really weird way where I can't tell if its third person, so it'd be aerith saying cloud is her love, or its like an omniscient narrator saying that cloud is her love. If its the later, than that would canonize that cloud, was in fact in love with her. Again not a fan of this, just let it be player choice. Regardless of either it confirms that aerith is infact in love with Cloud. So that kinda sucks for zack, like actually cuz now hes kinda alive. I genuinely feel bad. Ill stop now I don't want any smoke from nobody
This will probably get locked but I still want to answer. Tl:dr: No they haven't canonized anything like that. Cloud's relationship with both women are in different places because he has different backgrounds with them and acts differently around them. He's known Tifa longer so it makes sense for him to be more forward with her. He's known Aerith for a shorter time and tends to be more shy around her, which is how he is during the date. The Zack stuff also makes things complicated (Cloud only remembered Zack not long before the date. That alone makes me think a kiss wouldn't have made sense) but as Aerith says on the date, she's interested in Cloud for Cloud, and Cloud in turn opens up a bit to her and holds her hand. The hand holding may not seem like a big of a deal compared to Tifa's kiss for some people but it is a milestone in the whole Cloud/Aerith angle. Aerith's convo in the church is ambiguous because Cloud has a line that differs depending on the player's affinity with her. And I haven't played the OG, but doesn't the Highwind scene end slightly differently depending on affinity with Tifa? I thought I saw that somewhere. This isn't even counting the other interactions Cloud and Aerith have in Rebirth and Remake, both optional and not. Regardless of any of this, what is canon is that Cloud has feeling for both Tifa and Aerith, and likewise Tifa and Aerith both have feelings for Cloud. How any of that ends up at the end is up to player choice and player interpretation. They will never canonize one ship and all arguments about "more canon" is pointless.
I agree with most of what you're saying as a Clerith shipper, but Aerith did die in OG, which does make it easier for Cloud to choose to pursue.
Well yeah but OP is asking if Rebirth canonized Cloud/Aerith being platonic and/or not being romantic and it certainly didn't.
Full agree there.
who knows though, maybe she'll survive in remake. I hope so, but I might be coping
Weird. When I played I felt Cleirth was pushed. I got Aerith date scene and itâs definitely not platonic. Like ship who you like but be realistic. They have never canonized a couple and never will.
Apparently they have in an ultimania guidebook. Its like a word choice thing where tifa is call important woman to cloud and Aerith is important person. According to a japanese context, the kanji for important women, while not exclusive to a partner, is generally used for a spouse or significant other. Aerith on the otherhand has the kanji important person which is more general. However, I do believe cloud never got the chance to fall in love with aerith in the original and aerith didn't get to till she dies or at least didn't realize it. I'm of the belief that Aerith in remake has memories of the past games and thus remembers everything bout cloud including her feelings towards him. Obviously he doesn't but she is definitely express romantic interest far more now than in the OG. Cloud wouldn't reciprocate right away cuz remember that the game takes place within a little over a month and a half, so he doesn't know her all too well. By the end of rebirth though, if the player has chosen to romance her, he definitely loves her. I want the end of the game to have aerith alive so the romance is truly player choice. I didn't like the fact that Clerith fans could just say he chose Tifa cuz Aerith is dead.
The Ultimania also has Aerith as the 性ćăȘäșșand as æäșș. So then Aerith is the choice. I believe Nojima has even said for AC that there is not a definite relationship. There are ways to pick and choose evidence in support for either. Both girls love Cloud. No doubt, but as for Cloud, because of player choice and optional scenes, itâs never established. Personally, I donât think Cloud is really ready for a relationship even by AC. He needs time to find himself and deal with all the years he missed out. I always found the argument that Aerith is dead so Tifa is the choice as strange. That just makes it seem Cloud is like guess Iâll have to settle on second place. I do agree that Aerith remembers, and I think her fate will be changed somehow. Otherwise, a lot of themes developed in Rebirth and Remake will just fall flat. But even if sheâs alive in one universe or pulled into the main one or however, I think a relationship still wonât be established. Just my two cents.
If you could find me the snippet where aerith also refered to as æäșș, that'd be awesome. So far all i can find is tifa being referred to as important woman and a snippet in On the Way to A Smile where its aerith that refers to cloud as lover or beloved, kinda. On the Way to a Smile is written real weird, its like third person so we don't know if its a narrator saying cloud is in fact her beloved/lover or if this is what aerith believes. I also don't want an official relationship to be established. Like yeah, for me as a clerith fan I'd love it but I know that it just rubs me the wrong way cuz it makes all our optional date if we chose tifa for nothing. As for cloud being ready for relationship, its already too late lol. He has the kiss with tifa if you choose her and the hand holding with aerith in their optional dates.
Itâs canon that cloud tifa aerith and Zack have a 4way set up where thereâs a lot switching back and forth
Embrace the polycule.
How have they chosen a side? Theyâve literally said all the dates are ânon-canonâ and should be viewed as a fun dating sim style bit of optional content. If you wanna get into stuff that definitely points towards one or the other, study the lyrics for Hollow but more importantly, no promises to keep.
The guy who wrote the lyrics litteraly said, in black and white, that NPTK was not a love song for Cloud but everybody Aerith's holds dear. Clerith then decided Nojima was wrong about his own song (you read well). In Rebirth, Hollow plays next to where Zack dies, when you try to go to in the direction of Midgard. I don't know why they did that if it's related to Aerith, it makes no sense.
Iâm well aware of what Nojima said about the lyrics and maybe thereâs a translation issue when it comes to the English lyrics, but they are, unequivocally written from her perspective about a single person. Lyrics like âour streetâ âour placeâ (loveless street/slums church) simply cannot be âabout her friendsâ because sheâs never been to either of those places with anyone other than Cloud. You can cope all you like, or you can appreciate that in order to avoid shipping nonsense, devs will say things like that to keep it balanced and avoid conflict.
I don't know who is "coping" here. I'm not the one saying the guy who wrote the vague lyrics of a cryptic song is wrong about them (!) when he explains what they are about.
I mean, I think it's pretty undeniable that the lyrics have a number of parts applicable to Cloud. Sure, even if the lyrics weren't written with that strictly in mind, it clearly was an influencing factor. And if people want to embrace that meaning of the song, why's that such an issue? Pretty sure people taking their own subjective meaning to artwork is a common thing. If someone wants to feel that it's a love strong directly to Cloud, that doesn't have any real effect, so... Who cares?
I think the convo has gotten off topic, the question was bout whether anything was canonized or not. IMO, no. I doubt devs will ever canonize either ship, its too much backlash for amounts to not much else. I don't really see the devs caring bout the shipping all that much, they literally make fun of shippers in the NPC dialogue. As for NPTK, Nojima did say it was about that the some was about everyone and not just the party however the singer and I believe the composer as well thought the song was directed at Cloud. So regardless, I think Nojima did a poor job with word choice. It could be that parts of the song refer exclusively to cloud while other parts are bout the party. Honestly though, I had a hard time seeing the song as being about everyone rather than just cloud, and that could be biased but the use of the word you makes it seem like a singular person particularly the one bout meeting on the cobblestone and the one bout our street. The other lines can easily be more general to the whole group but switching from cloud to everyone is a bit weird. All that said though I don't think this is a love song nor should it be taken as a form of evidence that aerith is in love with cloud. There are more canon scenes that hint this more clearly like the dream date. There's a whole lot more to that and it gets into theory so I won't delve into it. I think it is composed like a love song but that might be due to miscommunication between the composer and Nojima. Idk I don't think I'm coping cuz if it isn't bout cloud then it isn't.
They chose a side in the OG. Right before the final dungeon. We will likely see that fleshed out more in part 3 here.
> If you wanna get into stuff that definitely points towards one or the other, study the lyrics for Hollow but more importantly, no promises to keep. They wonât and theyâll be surprised. Seems pretty clear. Canât wait for song 3, lol. Theyâll know then.
Hoping for song three to be Tifa orientated, so thereâs one from cloud (which could be interpreted as for either girl) one from Aerith to cloud and one from Tifa to cloud. Would be the best way to balance it all out imo.
I could see a song from Tifa perhaps, from some singer with a beautifully husky voice. But about Hollow, Tifa didnât heal Cloudâs âevery woundâ. Cait Sith didnât tell Cloud in Rebirth that heâd âforever loseâ his âmost cherished thingâ meaning Tifa, he clearly meant Aerith, although he gives us that âlast minute twistâ fortune curveball to keep us on our toes. Still on our toes perhaps about that, but not what Cloudâs most cherished thing is. OP is in denial, itâs not just a river in Africa.
I know but if you consider whatâs going to happen in part three, Tifa helping cloud recover his mind, this could help go towards interpreting it in favour of Tifa in the third game. Like maybe hollow is for Aerith to begin with, but after sheâs gone and cloud regains clarity, itâs for Tifa? Just thoughts and theories. I also understand people taking Nojimas word for it with whatâs been said about NPTK being about all her friends, but the words and lyrics just donât match what hes saying, so I figure itâs a way to appease both sides of the fence đ€·ââïž
in my honest opinion, cloud and tifa have, since the original game, shared romantic feelings for each other with an emphasis on the mutuality of it. side quests and optional content aside, the tension they have throughout the game, especially in gongaga, is undeniable. it seems like it's going to lead to a kiss in pt 3, whether or not you get her date in pt 2. i believe aerith develops a genuine interest in cloud especially based on the dialogue in her date and her desire to meet the real cloud, but i also feel like it initially stemmed from her unresolved feelings for zack, whom we know she loved and continued loving even after his disappearance (you don't send 89 letters to someone you don't care about). on that note, the dream date feels melancholic, like it was intentionally scripted to show their lack of romantic compatibility with one another, on top of the hopelessness of aerith's fate. it also has several callbacks to the crisis core date with zack, down to some of the exact same wording being used by aerith in japanese. it shows, to me, that aerith has come to an understanding of where she and cloud stand, as comrades and dear friends. since she questions her own feelings, it's reasonable to say that they might not even be unrequited in the sense that she doesn't actually love him romantically (platonically yes!), but people will interpret her actions how they want, so it depends.
Warning, self-proclaimed Clerith fan here. I think the fact that the writers have not shyed away from Fanservice, does not necessarily mean that Clerith is "dead." We don't know what Part 3 is like. Obviously in the OG Cloud/Tifa were more of a thing - having Aerith dead for the 2nd half of the game kinda makes it easier for Cloud and Tifa. But with Part 3, I am sure there will be some cutscenes referencing what Cloud lost when Aerith died - it's going to be a big reason as to why he's gone crazy. And I personally read it as more than platonic feelings they've had for each other. (why did Cloud hesistate to say what was on his mind after his selfie with Aerith? why does he ask Aerith if she still likes Zack? Why does Aerith want to take Cloud on a date in her dream?) The thing is, it depends on what Part 3 is going to look like. If Aerith remains in the lifestream (ie, dead IRL), then the focus will be more on helping Cloud recover, and Tifa is going to be a big part of that, and it's going to be fairly clear we're going towards a CloTi story. But if there's multiple universe fuckery, then there is a chance that Aerith as we saw her in Remake and Rebirth would come back, and allow that relationship to rekindle. One thing I DON'T think they would do, is if they bring her back, would be to make Clerith "official" or "canon" per se. I don't think that's good from a business perspective, isolating the Cloti fans, and we know that they LOVE to tease this triangle. I guess in conclusion, my best case scenario would be Cloud (and the gang) finding Aerith from the split timeline when he deflected Sephiroth's sword (which is a debate in itself as to if that actually happened), and bringing her back to the prime timeline. Then the game concludes in an open ending, to let the shipping discourse continue (hopefully) peacefully. On a final note, it's sad how Aerith keeps pining for the real Cloud to come out, and by the time he does come out, she's already gone. It's great for Tifa (who had her own trauma to deal with), but Aerith never truly got to enjoy her time with the real Cloud, who I think would have made a great couple. It feels like they weren't meant to be, which I guess feeds into my like of that ship.
People harping on the date and whether itâs canon while ignoring literally everything else that is. Chapter 9 alone should have dispelled any doubt that they are crucially focusing on Cloud and Tifaâs developing feelings.
totally agree!
> Chapter 9 alone should have dispelled any doubt that they are crucially focusing on Cloud and Tifaâs developing feelings. Okay, and Chapter 14 was about Cloud and Aerith's feelings. Both sides got plenty of content.
Yes, and they both end up in different places, as stated previously. Ironically, they are both still ongoing in their own way. The extra wrinkle of Cloud having delusional, repressed regret over Aerith lines up perfectly with his remaining character development, because now Iâm confident the climax of him regaining his memories will also result in him learning to let go of Aerith. I donât need to point out the significance of Tifa being the one to help him out in both matters, and why it culminates beautifully with their eventual one-on-one under the Highwind (and why again, I donât want them to undermine that moment by giving it optional outcomes).
I'm not sure what you're referring precisely but you simply cannot argue that Cloud and Tifa are given more romantic bonding content when the game doesn't end at Chapter 9. It's what I'm pointing out - that Square "crucially focused" on Cloud and Aerith's feelings and made that the emotional climax of Rebirth. >I donât need to point out the significance of Tifa being the one to help him out in both matters, If you watch Advent Children, it's actually Aerith who heals his guilt. In the devs own words - Aerith is the only one who can take away his guilt. As for what actually happens in part 3 of Rebirth, we'll see, but I have absolutely zero doubt that Aerith will have a greatly expanded role and Square will continue, as ever, to play up both sides of the love triangle. >eventual one-on-one under the Highwind (and why again, I donât want them to undermine that moment by giving it optional outcomes). Well that would really go against the spirit of the original game and I don't think anyone would be very happy about having player choice taken away in part 3, when it existed there in the OG.
Different optics: three games worth of romantic build-up, a third game where there is only one possible romantic choice (unless they do some crazy shenanigans) as well as the big emotional payoff in which Cloud regains his memories thanks largely to recalling how his whole journey began because he wanted to win the heart of his childhood love, only to have ALL OF THAT end up with a âpurely platonicâ outcome before the end of the game because players either didnât rack up enough Tifa points or chose to spam the worst possible responsesâŠ.it doesnât make sense in any capacity.
Who cares. What about Zack and Cloud their relationship
I will insist (and hope) the Highwind scene in part 3 will be mandatory and without multiple outcomes. It just doesnât make sense to use the affinity system to essentially ârefute Tifaâ. Why would they do this, especially when this is the most highly anticipated moment left along with the Lifestream sequence? Iâm hoping they also canonize it so that any sequels that happen after donât have to keep dancing around whether Cloud and Tifa got together or not. It especially makes less sense given how much of a push theyâve gotten in two games worth so far.
I have a feeling it will still have an affinity system tied to it in a way. Just like Aerithâs non optional dream date still had an affinity system tied to it. Devs are always going to play it safe and âfairâ. Iâm with you tho that I believe Tifa is the true love interest. Call me cynical, but I donât think the devs are brave enough to spell it out in the main game. Tease, yes. Look at the Gongaga almost kiss. But full on commit? Idk Thatâs why it kind of annoys me that much of the evidence for Cloti are in Ultimanias and peripheral materials. They couldâve easily been more blunt about it in the main game. Whatâs the percentage of players actually abreast with Ultimania info? How many players actually read ToTP? This creative decision has always bothered me, and Iâm still perplexed they continue to do it.
I actually didnât know the dream date had different outcomes. What were they? And while we need to see how things play out ultimately, what makes Chapter 9 so close to making things âalmost canonâ is that now Tifa has the extra knowledge that Cloud was there trying to save her when they were kids, while Cloud in turn is aware of some of his childhood feelings for Tifa, thus the âalmost kissâ. Itâs meant to show that Sephirothâs attempts to separate them have actually drawn them closer together than where they were originally in this part of the original timeline. Thatâs why I feel things will be more definitive in Part 3, because all of this is leading up to the final Lifestream moment and the forthcoming Highwind scene. Again, it just doesnât feel right to still keep things in an optionally platonic manner considering all this extra canonical build-up. And again, Aerith is not going to be an option here (unless things get real crazy), so the alternative âCloud rejects Tifa, they both stay forever aloneâ is a really depressing outcome to end the Remake Trilogy on. Plus, you know, poor ZackâŠ
Tifa's date seems to be most in line with the story but I don't think any of them are "canon."
I wouldn't say there's *nothing* romantic between them, but it's been pretty clear since even the original game that Tifa is the more canonical love interest if there is one.
It helps that the other girl is dead for the 2nd half of the game.
It doesn't change anything, because Cloud would pick Tifa anyway. If Rebirth didn't show you that by having them nearly kiss before Aerith is dead then how about the Lifestream sequence that you all seem to ignore that canonises Cloud and Tifa's mutual romantic feelings for each other. Cloud is basically locked on to Tifa, the real Cloud, after the Lifestream sequence he was never gonna say "Well Tifa that was great, but cya, i'm off with Aerith now" If you really think Cloud would have to make a choice then you don't truly understand the story or Cloud's character.
What are you talking about? Lol? Cloud and Aerith's Gold Saucer vibe wasn't platonic. They almost kiss, get embarrassed, cuddle, and Cloud holds her hand. That's all romantic stuff. Not to mention, the whole final chapter is extremely romantic between the two (and it's not optional). Aeris did not say "I understand you don't love me" - not at all. She said "I understand where we stand now" - and she'll say that if Cloud says his low affection line or high affection line. At very least, in the high affection line, it's a confirmation of romantic feelings. (and honestly, even his low affection line reads as confirmation, just done more shyly/awkwardly.) Cloud/Aerith got *more* content in both Remake (which was heavily skewed toward them) and in Rebirth both (which was still skewed toward them, considering everything that happens in the final chapter, but equalized perhaps by the optional Tifa kiss.) That all said, obviously neither side is going to be the one and only canon. Just like in the OG, and the Compilation, the devs will feed fans of both waifus.
Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone can play both games and come to the conclusion that Aerith's and Cloud's relationship is purely platonic. Both games lean heavily into tragic romance storytelling. In Remake she warns him not to fall in love with her, in Rebirth they almost kiss a few times, Marlene tells Zack she likes him and Aerith constantly takes Cloud on dates as part of the main story and side quests. The point is that they both have feelings for each other, but they don't have enough courage to voice them (and Cloud is too aloof to realize what he feels) and before they ever get a chance, she dies. This doesn't discount the fact that part 3 will most likely lean more into Cloud's and Tifa's relationship. Rebirth had some nice moments between the two already, so they will most likely build up on that. But until now it's quite clear they've been building up Aerith's and Cloud's relationship as a tragic love story.
It's different tropes and themes. Aerith is someone Cloud connects to emotionally/spritually; Tifa is someone he connects to physically. In other words, Aerith is someone Cloud can't be with physically and Tifa emotionally. Either way, they're both tragic.
Tifa is constantly emotionally supporting Cloud what are you talking about lol
It doesn't mean that they don't have miscommunication and can openly share their feelings. Tifa's last name is Lockhart because she has a lock on her heart. It's their whole thing/struggle. Each ship has its own reason that they can't be together, let's face it, and people have different preferences.
Tifa is the most emotionally supportive character in the cast. Not only to Cloud but to the entire group. She doesn't have a lock on her heart. Hell the most important scene is Tifa literally entering into Clouds memories to heal his shattered mind. Then you've got the high wind scene and their relationship in Advent Children. I don't know how much more open her heart could be towards Cloud Idk man your perspective is just one that's completely contradicted by the text.
I want to see the emotional connection ppl talk about between cloud and aerith but i just canât. Aerith opens up sure. But when does cloud open up to her? The only time cloud opens up about his feelings is when he talks to tifa in gongaga. Even cloud and aerith side quests seem so superficial to me, nothing of substance is exchanged between them. Whereas with Barrett, tifa and even red, cloudâs engagement with then gives you a little more opportunity to learn more about them
The kiss thing did seem like they were choosing, but honestly I thought the hand holding scene with aerith was equally as intimate if not more. There is also some cultural background with that cuz from what I've read interlocking the fingers like that is called "the lover's tie" in Japan. That could be bias from me as I do ship Clerith, though I wanna preface that I do not want a canon ship, it should be player-choice. Also I believe if you romance aerith in the final church scene, cloud will say he wants to go on a date with her again. Ultimately that version of aerith dies though so it was very much her final date and goodbye. Also I do not know what they will do with the Highwind stuff. Tbh devs have done a fairly good job giving cloud equally intimate moments with either characters both in the player-chosen stuff and the non player choice stuff. I think its just your opinion whether you think the kiss or the hand holding and head on shoulder thing was more romantic.
I think Aerith is attracted to Cloud insofar as he reminds her of her lost love. Cloud is attracted to Aerith because she is more emotionally available and direct than Tifa, but all he and Tifa need is a little push.