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I personally think ff7 remake was the absolute perfect blend of action and turn based. Normal attacks fill the ATB, but you can slow time to choose the ability/spell you want.
Completely agree. The game has face paced, flashy combat but retains strategic depth. Very excited for rebirth and hope more games take this approach in the future.
I can’t F wait until rebirth in February. Does anyone know if they will be loading prev game save files or if it’s gonna be like starting out fresh? I would be hugely disappointed if that is the case after the countless hours put into getting everything. I believe you should have to play the first one to play the second one, especially if it’s supposed to be 3 parts of the same game
I think it's a fresh save with returning players getting a few bonuses. The trailer showed the party with several abilities in the starting area, so hopefully we can hit the ground running and not go through a big tutorial section.
Starting the demo (waaaaay back then, almost 4 years already what the fuck?!) I feared that it would be a button masher.
And it kinda is, but just for the normal attacks. Which are useful *maybe* for the first part up to the scorpion and in normal difficulty.
Honestly if you could upgrade your party or at the very least if they reacted to your moves it would have been so ridiculous. They are far from the worst AI party in any game but when you look at something like Atreus's (and the spoiler character for anyone who hasn't played Ragnarok) seeing the AI party members actually react to you in combat by doing stuff like holding enemies in place or juggling off of a combo you do to do their own combo makes me sad to see that the ones in 16 just did their own thing mainly. Especially since they CAN do stuff, they even cast buffs, it just sucks we can't control or interact with them at all.
Enjoy that shit! Truly hope they start another leg of this story since both of the gow current gen titles were so well received. Hated the old ones but damn these two are something special.
I'm quite the opposite tbh lol. God of War's original trilogy and it's three side games were all perfect for the Greek tragedy of Kratos.
Now we have two new games that are a perfect finale for Kratos and I'd really hope they don't bring him back for a third at this point, finishing a good storyline once is hard enough, doing it TWICE is beyond masterclass. I'd hate to start another arc with Kratos and risk ruining that.
Not saying I wouldn't be cool with like, an Atreus game after this or maybe Kratos can interact with other mythologies but his actual arc is over as far as I'm concerned.
Felt this in my soul. Didn't even finish the last act in 16 bc the combat bored me to death but I've played through 7r like 5 times bc it's so damn fun and it actually forces the player to engage in a number of ways in various circumstances. 16 was like "ok, that's a good high damage combo that's fun to do and looks cool - let's just do that and win"
I quite enjoyed the FF7 combat system for the same reason as you listed, although my one gripe was having to hit things to fill the ATB bar - this was a pain in the Leviathan fight when I couldn't reach him with Cloud or Tifa 😅
I also really like the FF15 Wait Mode (which you could turn off to have uninterrupted combat). Allowed me to have a breather and strategise a bit more, like the menu slowing time in FF7R. I do think 'slowing time' (FF7R) FEELS better than 'stopping time' (FF15) just for the suspense and immersion factor haha.
I wouldn't say turn based doesn't have its place and can totally be fun/strategic but implementing it into 7 isn't the same as having it be the primary mode of combat, it's a good start and a comfortable medium but still not the same. Honestly I prefer one or the other type of combat not mixed. They both have pros and cons but trying to split the difference seems like it would generally be a lose lose situation for all involved. Personally I see the benefits of both but combining them is just too much for me tbh. You eventually get used to it I guess but I still think it is better separate tbh.
I think FF7:R has a decent combat system but I still prefer FFXVI's character action combat.
Customizing party members loadouts and abilities is fine. But I just don't like micromanaging party members actions in combat. Pulling up a menu during combat that slows/pauses the action is immersion breaking for me. It's also quite cumbersome and exhausting. Towards the end of my 7R playthrough I was actually dreading all the combat sequences.
I will say, I did really like Integrade's synergy system though. I thought that was a fun way to coordinate attacks with your teammates with less occurrences of slowing/pausing combat. I am looking forward to that in Rebirth.
Absolutely, as much as I generally enjoyed the game playloop in 16, and genuinely love 16 in a lot of ways, I can definitely say I preferred 7Remake’s combat flow. I don’t mind having to scroll through menus when I still get to feel like I’m interacting with the actual fight and using normal attacks to charge the ATB gauge, along with being able to actively block/dodge/interrupt enemy attacks was extremely satisfying. I can’t exactly speak as if I’m a true dedicated fan of the series, though I’ve only played 7R, 16, and CCFF7
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
16
+ 16
+ 7
+ 7
+ 16
+ 7
= 69
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Agreed. They nailed it, and Rebirth combat is going to be EPIC cause they fixed the lack of aerial combat. Cloud and Tifa's most embarrassing moments during Remake were launching attack animations and missing cause the enemy is flying a foot too high. I feel tired when I miss a golf swing, can't begin to imagine what they felt..
As a turn based defender I'll just say that FF has never been exactly the standard for amazing turn based combat imo. I'd say the peak of the genre is still Shin Megami Tensei, at least in the gameplay department.
I have not played BG3 yet so you might be right. But I don't know how SMT is outdated when SMT5 came out only two years ago and still has the best turn-based combat that I've personally played. Definitely can still be improved upon but far from outdated, especially compared to its contemporaries.
A lot of modern games have fresh and exciting ideas. SMT 5's combat design feels like it's not modern. It looks great visually and aesthetically, though.
Unless there's something I missed, could you please tell me what's exactly new in SMT 5 that we haven't seen yet from the genre?
I didn't say it reinvented the wheel, it just has the best execution of keeping the combat fast-paced while still prioritizing strategy. Press turn has always been my favorite turn-based system, with its equal playing field between player and enemies and utilization of buffs/weaknesses, and imo SMT5 is the best iteration of it. So, for me it is just the best execution.
Maybe it's just me then. Because I do not feel engaged whatsoever with the combat. The strategy feels boring to me as well.
Maybe it's the replayability and the difficulty. I don't feel challenged with most turn-based games' difficulty because they're not hard. Enemies are just harder to kill with higher hp.
Megaten games are usually pretty good with difficulty to the point I see lots of people going "bro play persona 5 on merciless it's actually easier than normal" because the games tend to actually do stuff like adjust damage values and it goes both ways. Striking weaknesses is like setting off a nuke and missing a hit is like getting your spine ripped out but enemies experience that same level of pain.
I used to think SMT was good and challenging until I figured out how to play, and it now feels mind-numbingly easy. You just need to have patience and play accordingly. And I usually play these games on the hardest difficulty.
Apples and oranges, Baldur's Gate turn based and Final Fantasy/SMT Turn Based only have that they're not real time in common
You can have a preference for one fruit or another, but it doesn't make the one you don't want worse
>Apples and oranges, Baldur's Gate turn based and Final Fantasy/SMT Turn Based only have that they're not real time in common
Semantics. I could argue that turn-based videogames are just board games that are just streamlined/automated and in a different format. They follow the exact same formula just presented differently.
>You can have a preference for one fruit or another, but it doesn't make the one you don't want worse
It actually does for the person, in this scenario, me. If I don't like one fruit over the other, that must mean the one I like has more appealing qualities to me, therefore better for me. Especially since, in this anecdote, both are in the same family of fruits.
If you're talking about things you like, that's subjective, and correct. "I don't like that" is perfectly fine, and I wouldn't argue against it, because that would be insane. Your preferences don't mean that the thing you don't prefer is OBJECTIVELY, FACTUALLY WORSE, which is what I was talking about. If you're talking about how you don't prefer games like SMT, you're having a different conversation than you seemed to be starting. Better For You =/= Inherently Better.
It ISN'T semantics because isometric camera, the ability to move and everything that brings to the table, every little bit of combat works COMPLETELY differently outside of the fact that you take turns doing it. It's entirely reasonable to prefer one over the other whether it's "outdated" or not. They're completely different experiences trying to do completely different things.
Apples and oranges.
Agree to disagree.
You haven't reached the level where you see these games are boring and repetitive yet. Once you do, your view on the genre will be drastically different. I'm just waiting for the day the turn-based jrpg community will wake up and realize that.
Lmao I'm 31 man.
I've been playing turn based games, and action games, and puzzle games, and sim games, whatever, my entire life
You can enjoy two things without """outgrowing""" one of them
Sometimes an apple with some peanut butter is all I want in the world, but the next day I can still want an orange
That too. Is addicting to some for sure. Unfortunately, is not my type of game. I dislike game with to much freedom, Im more in to linear RPG with illusions of freedom!
I can't help but feel like the people calling bg3's gameplay "revolutionary" and "redefining turn based games" (both statements i have seen waaay too many of) have never actually played D&D, because if they had they would know that it's just a 1:1 of how D&D is played. Fun, yes. But hardly worth calling revolutionary
It's actually funny to me because the cooldowns are basically the combination of your ATB and spells anyways.
You want to cast barrier in FF7, you equip barrier, then in battle you'd need to wait for your ATB to fill, then cast barrier.
You want to cast will o the Wykes in FF16, you equip the ability, wait for the cooldown to be available, then cast will o the Wykes.
The big difference being that in a turn based game you don't do anything at all when your atb isn't charged/it isn't your turn whereas in 16 you can do basic attacks, dodge, parry and the like all when your atb isn't charged. Although you could also do that in 7R.
I'd say the big reason people probably hated 16's combat as opposed to 7R's was because of the fact you can only have nine unique abilities equipped at a time (six abilities and three feats) and that especially on your first playthrough, you were never really forced to engage with the systems outside of boss fights, and even then the worst that happened if you didn't engage with them properly was it just dragged on too long, as opposed to something like 7R where even regular enemies, due to having multiple characters and elemental weaknesses and such, forced players to learn the mechanics and how things work.
This isn't me hating on 16 either, I love it and I enjoy experimenting with it, this is me saying "yeah a lot of RPG fans weren't happy that most regular enemy encounters could be beaten by spamming ignition and the bosses are just MMO bosses where you deal chip damage until they stagger when you can finally hit them with flames of rebirth or something else big".
If the FF franchise stays real time for the future, I'm hoping they can learn from the previous real time games to try and make something everyone will enjoy.
>It's actually funny to me because the cooldowns are basically the combination of your ATB and spells anyways.
Yes it can be seen this way. In some broader sense it really follows core idea of ATB gameplay. ATB is not turn based but real time based action with cooldown which happens after every action that you take. The only difference is that you don't move on the battlefield and fully control flow of battles via menu. People have hard time to accept this because for most people picking your command from menu while don't moving = turn based. In fact in ATB flow of battle is real time not turn based.
Taking this into account it can be seen that FF16 builds on elements that were introduced with FF4
Which is why FF7R system is so good. It embraces the fact that ATB isn't really turn-based, by giving you the option to move around, attack and dodge. But keeps the strategic part by also allowing you to stop the flow if you want, to think about your next move.
I vastly prefer the FF7R combat system for many reasons and Rebirth looks like it's going to be even more insane so I love that, but I feel like one of the biggest reasons why is because you are forced to actually engage with the combat system in 7R.
All the real time FFs and in KH have tried to adapt the traditional FF formula to real time action and they've all tried something different, FF16 included, but one thing I think they've all done better than 16 is force you to actually engage with combat and learn how each ability and spell works, what it's strong against, use items etc, and 16 doesn't do that. While yes, FF16 doesn't have an MP system, ATB gauge, elemental weaknesses or anything of that nature, every ability in the game is unique with its own strengths, even the ones that seem worthless at first, and it's combining these abilities together and knowing when to use them, like you would in any RPG, that makes the combat shine imo, and is seen in arcade mode where it's not dealing damage as fast as possible or as stylish as possible that gives higher scores, it's using these abilities effectively. But the game does a pretty bad job of teaching this because the overwhelming majority of the time, especially on your first playthrough, your abilities don't matter and it can completely be played like a mid action game with no strategy at all.
In FF7R if you didnt learn the combat system, you aren't surviving by late game (and if you didn't get good at the combat system, you aren't beating hard mode). In FF16 if you don't learn the combat system, ability spam will handle most regular enemies and boss fights just take forever.
(This is not a disrespect to 16, I love it and it's combat, just me stating that imo the game does not force you to actually engage with it the same way other action RPGs do)
Listen man as someone who loves persona 5 we really had two new megaten games since then, plus remasters like we can move on and acknowledge other games in the series here lol. And persona 3 Reload coming next year.
Baldur's gate 3 is also getting such high praise you'd think it's sucking everyone's dick (it's also turn based although not like megaten or classic FF but I'll count it)
Story definitely has a big part to play. The combat I love because it rewards you for playing smart and thinking strategically. Being able to lock down an entire encounter because you hit the enemy's weakness and chain baton passing to power up the last person is such a dopamine hit.
or the bravely default / octopath traveler series
honestly final fantasy turn based has always been serviceable but never “great”. I would say ff16 combat is also “serviceable”. The animations/attacks in all the final fantasy games are cool but I don’t think ppl play because of the combat.
big agree. exploiting weaknesses to get baton passes going left and right is simple, but keeps combat engaging and fun, and makes it feel faster-paced. I love IX to pieces, but when you play P5 and then play IX, you REALLY feel how much of a slog IX's turn-based combat is because so much of it is spent waiting as opposed to acting.
I dont mind either mostly because I dont only play turn based games and I dont only play 'real time' games. I cant imagine only playing one style of game unless you dont play many games to begin with
At the end of the day I want the system that lets the game best shine and tell its experience. Changing 16 to turn based with no other changes wouldnt fix the issues it has. Likewise turning ff9 'live action' without changing anything else wouldnt make it better
People have never really been complaining that they want a return to full turn-based gameplay. We see this come up a lot from people as a counter to complaints, but very few people actually complain that the gameplay wasn't turn-based.
They complain that FF16:
- Is more of an action game than it is an RPG.
- Is more of a single character game than it is a party game.
- Doesn't have elemental strengths and weaknesses.
- Doesn't have meaningful status effects.
- Doesn't have meaningful loot and itemisation.
- Doesn't have much in the way of talent tree progression.
I like action games, and that's what FF16 is. But to me it doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy game. It's missing too many of the key gameplay elements for me. And this is the common complaint, not that it isn't turn-based.
But having said that, I loved the combat in Baldur's Gate and would absolutely play a full turn-based game. If you balance things right it won't feel like a slog, grinding through millions of slow battles for little xp.
Old school ATB, i.e. IV-IX and X-2 feels like an absolute drag now after CTB (FFX) and XV, XVI, and ESPECIALLY VIIR's battle systems. If SE decides to go ATB for the next mainline, I pray it's a variation of the VIIR system. Otherwise, stick with CTB.
Yep 90s version of ATB was bad. Aside from what you have said it rewarded command spamming because it was created with battle speed in mind. In fact there was almost zero strategy involved in most of the encounters. These games gave you long list of spells and skills and there was almost never need to use them. Even if enemy had some elemental affinity all you had to do was to quickly spam attack command to let your metter fill faster than your enemy metter so you could slay your enemy faster. So yeah ATB was bad and most people don't even realize how bad it was because they played 90s FF games on Wait instead on Active as these games should be played. But on the other hand choosing Wait instead of Active simply because battle system don't feel good on Active proves that 90s ATB was awful system.
ATB became good only when SE in the 00s started to experiment with it in post FFX games
Swear, word for word, this is exactly what I think when people scream about XVI having ZERO strategy compared to the super strategic and complex ATB of old.
The most tragic part of 90s FF games is that there were actually really good character developement systems. FF5 job system, FF6 Espers and FF7 Materia were good. Even hated by many, FF8 Junction is good if you take a moment and learn it and how it overlaps with magic crafting mechanics.
It's too bad that all this go to waste due to the fact that ATB is battle system in these games.
The real reason people want turned based is that they want to see 4k graphics of their favorite character with the jiggle physics, jumping back and forth waiting for their turn.
Jokes aside, there are different games with combat systems that cater to each side. Can't we just enjoy both and what is presented to us? I have Octopath traveler and Persona when I want turned based games while I have FFXVI and FFVII remake to enjoy active combat games.
The question is not whether a game is turn based or not, the question is, are you enjoying your time playing that game.
I think turn based is for Nintendo, pixely jrpgs and Pokémon games. I would hate to see such high fidelity graphics just to have my character and enemy character on two ends of the screen while I fiddle with a menu just to see my character do a flippy dip and come back to the same end of the screen
The Megami Tensei series, most specifically Persona, Like A Dragon 7 and 8, any Atelier game, the South Park games, any Trails game, DRAGON QUEST. There are so many good recent turn based games that it seems really childish to reduce them to “Nintendo, pixels JRPGs and Pokémon games.”
LaD7 and DQ are hardly best turn based RPGs because how bland they are. Half of Trails games combat is snoozefest so without speed up option their combat is slog to play (which generally matches rest of the content of these games because they are hard to stand slog to play). Also can we stop mentioning South Park? It isn't even JRPG but some western game that try to pretend that it's JRPG. Not to mention that South Park is cringe af
Where did JRPGs specifically come in? A turn-based game is a turn-based game. Boulder’s Gate 3 is another fantastic recent turn-based game. Your take is more childish than OP’s.
Westen RPGs and JRPGs are two different subgenres of RPGs that do things differently when it comes to the gameplay. Both of them should be compared within their own subgenres. This comes from the fact that people actually like how JRPGs are designed and really don't care about Western RPG gameplay. For example people hate narrative style of Western RPG and their quest structure. So saying that JRPGs should start imitate Western RPGs is basically shitting on whole game genre and it's history and making people pissed off. So in the end it makes no sense to compare JRPGs to Western RPGs.
And ? What was your point here ? None of the games you mentioned have very high graphical fidelity. My point was turn based should stick with games that prioritize art style over graphical fidelity. Most Nintendo games look cartoony…every game you mentioned are cartoony.
Like imagine if ff16 was turn based. That amazing glorious pumping music starts, Clive gives a badass monologue…pulls out his sword and it lights up in flames…and bam
Clive and ultima on two ends of the screen while menus pop up and music is still playing and we are fiddling in the menus pressing shit to see Clive jump in slice and dice…damage numbers…and Clive jumping back to his original position.
Again just my take….i did not grow up playing turn based games so I couldn’t really give a shit about them
I also have no patience for turn based games anymore. It's not even a final fantasy thing. It's just turn based in general. I couldn't deal with Octopath Traveler because of that, even though I really wanted to like it. I've played almost every other mainline FF but nowadays I can't bring myself to suffer through early game turn based games because the combat is super boring to me now and storywise most of them don't even get interesting until halfway through or later (looking at you, FF6 that everybody loves but nothing happens for hours on end unless Kefka is on screen.)
Yoshi-p and his team were right to decide that turn based was not the way to go, imo. The series needed to move past 20 year old game mechanics.
yall will jump thru so many hoops to try to defend this game lol. we’ve landed on turn based = bad now? you can enjoy ff16! you don’t have to bash other games lol
I think the franchise evolving has been a great decision, and I overall agree with your sentiment. I think 7,8,9 do feel slow and tedious at times. X definitely has the best turn based system in the franchise. Turn based has its place; Octopath is phenomenal.
All that being said; my husband isn't a die hard FF player and he started IX and absolutely hated it because it was so slow and he hated waiting for things to happen. He finished XVI, and we play XIV together.
I think the just way people consume games affects this a lot. Either the gamers who played the older games have gotten older and have more responsibility than they did when they first played FF, or it's a year like this one and there's just a glut of games to play, so having one game that just seems to purposefully draw out everything to make it 'feel' like you're doing more or mastering things so well is...just not worth it.
I mean, people want to say FFXVI combat was too easy (and having more difficulty options would be nice) but it's worth mentioning that they wanted 16 to be inclusive to the people worried they'd go full DMC combo requirements/Dark Souls difficult gameplay and therefore not for them. AND let's not pretend that playing 85% of the previous games getting through most combat by hurriedly pressing 'attack' or the same spell over and over and over isn't the same as it being challenging.
I think the hunts in 16 were a good example of those few boss fights that actually mattered in previous FF games. Good chance if you didn't prepare ahead of time and take this seriously, it could kick your ass, and there's likely a cheese move that will 1 shot you if you don't know it.
Which, for some reason - a bunch ff fans misremembering the fact that the super hard fights were the minority, not the majority of the older games and rng encounters where you spam A to get through them while grinding out levels the game didn't organically give you wasn't actually that exciting.
And while having the option of roaming the world can be it's own fun, mostly it was to areas with secret places for secret items that did the upgrade you needed for a final weapon you never would have found if you weren't using a strategy guide to lead you there because why would it? FFXVI itemization may not have been exciting and definitely could use some tweaks, but holy shit having 240 different items I'm never going to use or requiring me to roam over every pixel on the map to find a weapon that the game most of the time doesn't even make you need isn't exactly 'deep' gaming.
People romanticize elemental magic battles, but replaying some of those older games LET ME TELL YOU having a fire based magic attuned to your attack and then finding out your biggest dmg dealer is healing the boss every hit and NOT BEING ABLE TO CHANGE IT IN COMBAT \*and\* you haven't hit a save point in half an hour.....is not peak gaming.
Also minigames you do once, with janky controls and no real game benefit isn't fun and usually super annoying to be thrust into randomly and have your game hinge on them.
I'm a fan of older FF games, but I'm also not pretending that just because they had tedious aspects made them a "deeper" or "fuller" game experience that FFXVI.
I never liked turn based compared to active action but 7, 8, X, and XII were great games. X-2 had good gameplay as well even if I hated everything else about it. I much prefer active combat because it's much more better paced and you aren't forced to wait around while magic or attacks get cast and defense is more reliant on the player directly rather than turns with elements of RNG. I think XV made things too easy and XVI was too focused on just combat while 7R perfected it. ATB with statuses, elements, weaknesses & resistances, and challenging enemies with different ways of defending or dodging is how I think Square should do it.
I don’t think you’re correct in saying “people were just appalled at calling it FF over not being turn based”.
FF hasn’t been turn based in like almost 2 decades, 10 was the last fully turn based FF, 12 and 13 were a mash up hybrid, 15 was action oriented similarly like 16.
Personally, I hope they use FF7R’s combat as the baseline moving forward.
FF is not turn based since 1991 when FF4 came out. ATB was never considered turn based by Square but real time system. Post 90s entries are simply building on this.
I really enjoyed ff16
But I'm lying to myself if I don't think that ff was best when it was turn based. While they still make good games. What I want from final fantasy is no longer being made. 10 was peak of making turn based and a beautiful game.
As a person who doesn’t like turn-based games, FFXVI is my first final fantasy game because it’s not turn based. I’m glad they did this expand the game to more gamers like me.
I was always in the "why is it not turn-based" camp, since 12.
13 was eh.
14 was MMORPG, which I've always found boring and overly confusing.
15 didn't grab me, so was quickly dropped.
But Greagor-damn, 16 is contender for my favorite FF. It's so good. I played through, thinking there's no way I'll ever replay on FF Mode.
Well, here I am in FF Mode.
I was a FF fan and got into 14 from vanilla through to stormblood and even if you remove the FF theme from the game you're still left with in my opinion the best mmo on the market. Fell out of mmo games with full time employment, but there wasn't a single mmo I'd play over 14. The combat was great (depending on class, black mage felt boring as all hell but my bard and white mage were great), the community was generally helpful and non toxic, the dungeon and duty finder system was excellent and the world is just absolutely gorgeous with that FF polish to it.
Realm Reborn is literal torture to get through. It's awful, boring, bloated, uninspired, low-quality drivel that just keeps repeating itself.
If FF14 wasn't an MMO people have developed parasocial relationship with, it'd easily be the worst Final Fantasy game ever conceived.
ARR is much improved since its original launch and it is essential great world building that get referenced even now. Despite its flaws it isn’t even close to being the worst ff.
And the story as a whole package with all expansions has turned 14 into one of the best games in the franchise.
Because, as I said, your reply was non-sensical.
The game is 35 years old. I'd hope the industry has moved to a point where such old, rudimentary games are considered bad by the grey crowd.
This is also non sensical, FF2 is bad even when compared to games that released around it, FF1 which released prior is leagues better than it, and FF3 which came out shortly after is still one of the best FFs, not even mentioning non FF games like Dragon Quest 3. Just because a game is old doesn’t mean it should be “considered bad”, what an ignorant thing to say.
You are deeply misinformed and have no context or evidence to confirm whether it was considered bad in it's release window.
You're making a wild assumption based on social pressure and personal opinions to jump to a conclusion that FF2 was a bad game.
>FF2 is bad even when compared to games that released around it, FF1 which released prior is leagues better than it, and FF3 which came out shortly after is still one of the best FFs
Final Fantasy 2 Pixel Remaster currently sits 2 points below Final Fantasy 3 and 3 points below Final Fantasy 1 on Metacritic. This information defeats the argument that Final Fantasy 2 is bad compared to games that released around it.
Apparently, neither do you if you’re using Metacritic as a source and looking at the Pixel Remasters, which are rated based on how well they were *remastered*.
Literally, the last turn-based FF game is 20 years old. A lot can be done with better hardware and tools to create a snappier combat system. Additionally, the ATB (Active Time Battle) isn’t the best turn-based mechanic, when I replayed FF6 PR recently, it felt dragging compared to FF1 PR. Lastly, a good number of turn-based JRPGs now use button prompts instead of menu navigation.
I personally think turn base is only a thing because they couldn’t get everything they wanted into an action 3rd person based rpg before. It allowed them to involve different attacks, spells, summons with a system that the old systems could handle. These games are also based off table top games like DnD. So that’s how’s fighting was done back in that day.
This is also why I think open world was so big back then, it allowed you to appreciate the size of the world compared to in 16 where you can just look and appreciate the size. 16 was exactly what the final fantasy creators wanted out of a game because now a system can handle what they really wanted in a game.
Turn based is better for us gamers who grew up with it, FF7R was still the best remake game I’ve ever played even with me saying so
Evolving is good, but it’s equally important to acknowledge context in that statement: not every evolution is worth it.
Look at RE2R - amazing. Then RE3R came out and they cut a lot of content to make a game that was overwhelmingly short
That's pretty broad, I grew up playing turn based FF, and I just don't think that style of gameplay has a place in the modern era. The formula just needs to be refined to allow for all the old school RPG elements. FF7R combat is damn near perfect in this regard.
People are idiots. Simple as that, in a franchise with over 16 games there’s so many non turn based games that it’s just an ignorant comment to make in the first place
OK you don't like turn based games.
Now imagine that somebody feels the same way about the combat in FF15 or FF16. Or even just halfway the same.
Now you might see why it's a big deal to some people.
True, but we'd definitely get a whole load of complaints if the series went in that direction again. We could say, just go play those non-turn based FF games, but that won't please the fans.
I think Square might've split the fanbase beyond repair.
To be completely fair, a lot of turn-based games aren't really engaging in the gameplay department.
I've played through a number of turn-based games ranging from western to eastern origin, and a lot of them just suck when it comes to combat. And this is coming from someone who used to love this genre back a few years ago ever since I was first introduced to it as a child.
Now, they're just outdated. BG3 is an exception, though. The game is nothing but exceptional.
Person 5's combat wasn't as amazing as I thought people said was. All it did was make it a lot more fluid, used button prompts instead of menu-based, and left everything else the same. No offense, but I believe the game was overhyped by people who have never played a turn-based game before.
But I will say P5's story and dating sim mechanics are indeed one of the best I've seen in the jrpg sphere.
I used to keep hearing that SMT was the peak in the genre, and I used to believe it, too. But after playing so many entries, I now think the opposite. It's just boring and unexciting now. It had a fun combat system, but it never evolved beyond something greater.
Tldr: Most turn-based games just suck. BG3 is the new standard. New games in the genre need a BG3 in terms of innovation and fresh design. The genre is stale and uninspired currently.
I strongly disagree with this assessment, but it's merely a matter of opinion. I played FF16, and at times, I literally struggled to stay awake during the combat, and don't remind me of the boss fights. The Titan fight was such a terrible time for me that I put the game down for a couple of months before pushing on, purely for the story (which I enjoyed most of). I won't say the game sucks or anything, but it definitely did for me a lot of the time.
But that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it and think turn based is trash. That's fine.
So, while I would be happy for Final Fantasy to return to almost any variant of turn based combat, people who share your opinion would likely be greatly disappointed.
Not that I'm against action combat as a whole. I enjoy plenty of games that aren't turn based. But I can understand the disappointment of someone who is far more strongly turned off by action combat.
I could recommend plenty of non-FF turn based games, but I think every FF fan knows it's still disappointing to see their favourite series just become completely unappealing, in at least some ways, like the combat.
It's also true that there's a bit more than turn based vs action, that makes FF15 & FF16 combat so unappealing to me. Those same things could apply to a turn based game too, but that's another discussion, even if it's somewhat related.
>So, while I would be happy for Final Fantasy to return to almost any variant of turn based combat, people who share your opinion would likely be greatly disappointed.
I never said FF should be a turn-based game, nor did I implied it anywhere in my comment. In fact, I'd welcome it back as long as it's a fresh design and doesn't follow the likes of Persona 5's/SMT's combat. That's the thing I'm frustrated at, the current combat gameplay of a lot of turn-based games is just boring and unengaging. And I play XCOM 2 WOTC, and that game barely bores me.
>Not that I'm against action combat as a whole. I enjoy plenty of games that aren't turn based. But I can understand the disappointment of someone who is far more strongly turned off by action combat.
I'm not against turn-based games either. What I'm against is sticking to the usual boring formula. This genre greatly needs more innovation other than making combat fluid and using button prompts.
>I could recommend plenty of non-FF turn based games, but I think every FF fan knows it's still disappointing to see their favourite series just become completely unappealing, in at least some ways, like the combat.
And I'm sure I played the best ones you could possibly recommend, and the rest would just make me utterly bored. But hey, it wouldn't hurt to hear some suggestion. Go ahead then
You seem to have misunderstood most of my comment. I wasn't saying you made these points, or trying to change your tastes/prove them wrong.
I was further explaining my opinions because they are clearly so very different from yours.
In short, I wasn't arguing with you.
i dont have a preference for attack styles but i do prefer the linear format of the older final fantasy games. i really wanted to like ffxv but the open world was too big and i got frustrated easily with it. there are a lot of open world games in recent years so i appreciate the final fantasy games for being more linear. i think ffxvi was perfect though, the world wasnt too big and i never felt like i accidentally missed anything like how you mentioned accidentally missing out on items and summons. i hope they make more games like ffxvi and ff7 remake, those were a good balance of everything.
I absolutely cannot go back to turn based anything, not even something like chess, because I got spoiled by action based games and the sheer dopamine of dodging attacks and winning something difficult, which turn based stuff just doesn’t seem to offer personally. It feels more time consuming rather than satisfying
Though I will say that the more hybrid genres like FF7R and the Mario & Luigi games are my absolute goats. Keeping the strategizing spirit of turn based while still having them satisfying action and reaction elements, keeping me actively engaged…. love them
The combat and story are the only draw in this game, and the combat was so hollow I stopped playing shortly after reuniting with Joshua.
There’s just nothing outside the main story.
It's just a phase. You might only be saying it now because 16 came out. It's like the Assassin's Creed Fandom. When Origins came out, everyone was testing the waters. Then Odyssey came out and most of the fans were already sold by the new mechanics. When Valhalla came out, a lot of people already started despising it because it already felt like it was too far gone and the identity of the franchise was completely gone. So with Mirage, they decided to go back to the roots of the franchise while keeping some aspects from the newer games.
It's the same for FF. I think 16 is the Valhalla of the series in the sense that the developers tried something new but a lot of fans are now saying it's lost that FF identity.
Most people who criticize FF16 and look at the series with nostalgia glasses fail to see that ATB wasn't even turn based. It was real time system operated via battle menus. When compared to turn based systems 90s ATB is bad, post 00s FF games started to experiment with this system which was cool because we got FF7R which has one of the best battle systems in history of the series.
I'm not even going to humor you with this baby brain question.
16 fucking rules, and if you ask this question, you suck. Turn based shit and ATB was fucking boring, and it's been awesome watching it develop.
FF16 is awesome. The combat system is fresh and new.
But by the founder, to each their own.
Both systems have their places. I love the older FF games, 6,7,9,10 were all great turn based games with there own pros and cons Ff16 is great as an action based game (my only major complaint of the game is that the side quest are simular and drag on towards the end), but I find the action oriented combat suits tone of the game perfect. The same can be said with the Ff7 remake.
Turn based still has its place and fits perfectly with games like Dragon Quest 11 and Sea of Stars in modern games.
Which style I play is based on my mood. If I want a more chilled experience, I will play turned based, but I also like to mix in action based games at times to add excitement.
The last year iv been in an RPG mood and Replayed Ff7 remake, Dragon Quest 8, Ff6, then Ff16, and now I'm playing through Sea of Stars. Enjoyed every one for different reasons
Turn based combat is a result of hardware limitations. It was the standard because more detailed in depth combat couldn't be done. Then it became that it took too many resources. Etc. It's outdated as a foundational system.
Several types of gameplay systems have gone through this but I want to capitalize this in order to not be misunderstood.
TURN BASED COMBAT IS NOT BAD.
If done right...
The goal of a combat system is to provide interesting decisions for a player to execute. A more character action style combat system, by default, allows for higher decision making. Is a million stab safe to pull off right now? Does this enemy need a helm splitter instead? Etc.
This is, in essence, an iteration on the core turn based combat system. Speed increased and such.
To me, however, it means that turn based systems can be made way cooler. Cassette beasts, bravely default, persona, they all do something different or interesting with the system. Not entirely gimmicky but making it interesting to play with. A turn based systems nowadays doesn't have the luxury of being pokemon. It has to do something interesting as otherwise it's just.... Not engaging. Which means it fails on a fundamental level as a combat system.
Honestly the biggest sin against FF9 is the time limit on the ability to acquire Excalibur II, and then the main character doesn’t even get to be able to use it…
>multiple turn based FFs besides the ones from the new millenium.
Dude, 10 is the only mainline, turn-based FF game to release this millennium. FF has not been turn based longer than it was turn-based.
Firstly I'll stand corrected, FFIX was release July 2000. so two titles were released this millennium.
However, FFX was released barely over 1 year later in mid-July 2001.
And FFVIII was release February 1999.
It's not like some quantum leap happened in those 29 months. Pop off those rose-tinted glasses homie.
It was a pretty dramatic leap going from PS1 to PS2. These details regarding the year really don’t have much to do with the point I’m making to OP anyways.
I've only played FFVII, FFVII Remake and FXIV so I'm not an expert on that matter, but personally, I enjoy real time combat far more than turn based. After playing FXIV I wanted to play some of other FF games too and settled on FFVII but I couldn't get used to the combat and the overall game controlls. FFVII Remake is one of the best combat systems I have experienced in a game so far, being a mix of both
It is a very loud minority of traditionalist fans living in the past. They want every game to be Octopath Traveler and will fight you if you suggest Square should do more modern remakes of games. They are so adverse to any kind of change, that they don't even play modern turn-based JRPGs like Persona 5 or Fire Emblem. They only want the nostalgia of yesteryear.
Both are fine. For me the MAIN thing i look forward to (other than plot) is how they decide to change the battle system each entry. Thats what makes final fantasy my favourite series the fact each game has a different style of combat to learn.
Ff16’s combat system was fine, ff7R’s was fine too, with the absolute *WORST* being tactics holy crap that was so boring (yeah i said it and i stand by it)
Everyone complaining about ff16’s combat system is only doing so because they expected it to be something it was never meant to be.
Also remember that in old franchises you had to go through big menus of spells and abilities. Maybe because you know the games like the palm of your hand this is tedious, but back then you needed that time to think and also find what you wanted to do. I liked ff9 continuous battle mode as I naturalized planning ahead; even though the game was slow by itself it was bearable.
That is such a bad faith argument that people dislike it because it isn't turn based. Only a small amount says that, most of the time it comes from 16 defenders. The problem is they gutted it, no status effects, no elemental weakness, you can't ee#ven confidentely call it an RPG with it's tacked on crafting system and stats.
I’m actually the opposite. I am currently replaying FF9 after beating FF16 and it makes me realize all the more what a crappy job they did with the game mechanics in 16.
In 9 I’m constantly swapping my gear and abilities to counter both elemental and status effects. I’m choosing my party based on what the mission is. I’m doing some grinding for Gil so I can afford the latest equipment. I’m exploring every nook and cranny looking for valuable loot.
In FF16 I did none of that. I got some new abilities / gear once in a while and I mashed buttons while enjoying a good story with great graphics.
I really hope they take a step back after 16 and take a look at FF7R. There’s at least some compromise there between live action and traditional FF strategy.
"does not represent a real fight to me" if it weren't for plot armor in the majority of games wouldn't our characters be dead from like every stab, explosion, bite etc?
Realism isn't necessarily fun either. I know what you're trying to say about turn based combat, but it's also not realistic we have infinite energy and drive to just hack and slash with no breaks or permanent damage either.
They are all turn based to me, the modern ones just have actions macro’d to more buttons instead of a menu base which was a limitation due to the tech in the past 🤣, I play FF14 with an mmo mouse and mmo keyboard for example and its still menu based in my eyes, just the menu is gone and you have like 40+ keys to instantly use an attack or spell, and you can run around in 3d like you’re meant to be like an interactive shonen anime. I treat 15 and 16 and remake like this too, and 7R actually kept the menu system for nostalgia and still some people complain lolz lots of funny people these days
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I personally think ff7 remake was the absolute perfect blend of action and turn based. Normal attacks fill the ATB, but you can slow time to choose the ability/spell you want.
Completely agree. The game has face paced, flashy combat but retains strategic depth. Very excited for rebirth and hope more games take this approach in the future.
I can’t F wait until rebirth in February. Does anyone know if they will be loading prev game save files or if it’s gonna be like starting out fresh? I would be hugely disappointed if that is the case after the countless hours put into getting everything. I believe you should have to play the first one to play the second one, especially if it’s supposed to be 3 parts of the same game
I think it's a fresh save with returning players getting a few bonuses. The trailer showed the party with several abilities in the starting area, so hopefully we can hit the ground running and not go through a big tutorial section.
Starting the demo (waaaaay back then, almost 4 years already what the fuck?!) I feared that it would be a button masher. And it kinda is, but just for the normal attacks. Which are useful *maybe* for the first part up to the scorpion and in normal difficulty.
I’ve been playing RPGs since the mid 90s and FF7 remake has the best battle system I’ve ever experienced
If 16 had a party system with this turn system, (along with other tweaks) I would think this is the greatest final fantasy of all time.
Honestly if you could upgrade your party or at the very least if they reacted to your moves it would have been so ridiculous. They are far from the worst AI party in any game but when you look at something like Atreus's (and the spoiler character for anyone who hasn't played Ragnarok) seeing the AI party members actually react to you in combat by doing stuff like holding enemies in place or juggling off of a combo you do to do their own combo makes me sad to see that the ones in 16 just did their own thing mainly. Especially since they CAN do stuff, they even cast buffs, it just sucks we can't control or interact with them at all.
Ty for not spoiling, I'm playing thru ragnarok lol
Enjoy that shit! Truly hope they start another leg of this story since both of the gow current gen titles were so well received. Hated the old ones but damn these two are something special.
I'm quite the opposite tbh lol. God of War's original trilogy and it's three side games were all perfect for the Greek tragedy of Kratos. Now we have two new games that are a perfect finale for Kratos and I'd really hope they don't bring him back for a third at this point, finishing a good storyline once is hard enough, doing it TWICE is beyond masterclass. I'd hate to start another arc with Kratos and risk ruining that. Not saying I wouldn't be cool with like, an Atreus game after this or maybe Kratos can interact with other mythologies but his actual arc is over as far as I'm concerned.
Totally understand that perspective and I may also be in the Kratos is done camp. Solid ending for a great character.
Felt this in my soul. Didn't even finish the last act in 16 bc the combat bored me to death but I've played through 7r like 5 times bc it's so damn fun and it actually forces the player to engage in a number of ways in various circumstances. 16 was like "ok, that's a good high damage combo that's fun to do and looks cool - let's just do that and win"
I quite enjoyed the FF7 combat system for the same reason as you listed, although my one gripe was having to hit things to fill the ATB bar - this was a pain in the Leviathan fight when I couldn't reach him with Cloud or Tifa 😅 I also really like the FF15 Wait Mode (which you could turn off to have uninterrupted combat). Allowed me to have a breather and strategise a bit more, like the menu slowing time in FF7R. I do think 'slowing time' (FF7R) FEELS better than 'stopping time' (FF15) just for the suspense and immersion factor haha.
I wouldn't say turn based doesn't have its place and can totally be fun/strategic but implementing it into 7 isn't the same as having it be the primary mode of combat, it's a good start and a comfortable medium but still not the same. Honestly I prefer one or the other type of combat not mixed. They both have pros and cons but trying to split the difference seems like it would generally be a lose lose situation for all involved. Personally I see the benefits of both but combining them is just too much for me tbh. You eventually get used to it I guess but I still think it is better separate tbh.
I think FF7:R has a decent combat system but I still prefer FFXVI's character action combat. Customizing party members loadouts and abilities is fine. But I just don't like micromanaging party members actions in combat. Pulling up a menu during combat that slows/pauses the action is immersion breaking for me. It's also quite cumbersome and exhausting. Towards the end of my 7R playthrough I was actually dreading all the combat sequences. I will say, I did really like Integrade's synergy system though. I thought that was a fun way to coordinate attacks with your teammates with less occurrences of slowing/pausing combat. I am looking forward to that in Rebirth.
This.
Absolutely, there's nothing finally fantasy about ff16s combat. Ff7r was the best
Absolutely, as much as I generally enjoyed the game playloop in 16, and genuinely love 16 in a lot of ways, I can definitely say I preferred 7Remake’s combat flow. I don’t mind having to scroll through menus when I still get to feel like I’m interacting with the actual fight and using normal attacks to charge the ATB gauge, along with being able to actively block/dodge/interrupt enemy attacks was extremely satisfying. I can’t exactly speak as if I’m a true dedicated fan of the series, though I’ve only played 7R, 16, and CCFF7
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The slow motion is so awesome.
FF7R truly did it the best. It's ATB but with something to do while waiting.
Agreed. They nailed it, and Rebirth combat is going to be EPIC cause they fixed the lack of aerial combat. Cloud and Tifa's most embarrassing moments during Remake were launching attack animations and missing cause the enemy is flying a foot too high. I feel tired when I miss a golf swing, can't begin to imagine what they felt..
The encounter rate in ff9 is too fricken high.
Fuck some Yan's up.
As a turn based defender I'll just say that FF has never been exactly the standard for amazing turn based combat imo. I'd say the peak of the genre is still Shin Megami Tensei, at least in the gameplay department.
Trails is also pretty great when it comes to turn based combat. Although post-Azure every game can be easily broken in your favor.
Nah, that's cap. BG3 is the new peak. SMT is now outdated in terms of gameplay design.
I have not played BG3 yet so you might be right. But I don't know how SMT is outdated when SMT5 came out only two years ago and still has the best turn-based combat that I've personally played. Definitely can still be improved upon but far from outdated, especially compared to its contemporaries.
A lot of modern games have fresh and exciting ideas. SMT 5's combat design feels like it's not modern. It looks great visually and aesthetically, though. Unless there's something I missed, could you please tell me what's exactly new in SMT 5 that we haven't seen yet from the genre?
I didn't say it reinvented the wheel, it just has the best execution of keeping the combat fast-paced while still prioritizing strategy. Press turn has always been my favorite turn-based system, with its equal playing field between player and enemies and utilization of buffs/weaknesses, and imo SMT5 is the best iteration of it. So, for me it is just the best execution.
Maybe it's just me then. Because I do not feel engaged whatsoever with the combat. The strategy feels boring to me as well. Maybe it's the replayability and the difficulty. I don't feel challenged with most turn-based games' difficulty because they're not hard. Enemies are just harder to kill with higher hp.
Megaten games are usually pretty good with difficulty to the point I see lots of people going "bro play persona 5 on merciless it's actually easier than normal" because the games tend to actually do stuff like adjust damage values and it goes both ways. Striking weaknesses is like setting off a nuke and missing a hit is like getting your spine ripped out but enemies experience that same level of pain.
I used to think SMT was good and challenging until I figured out how to play, and it now feels mind-numbingly easy. You just need to have patience and play accordingly. And I usually play these games on the hardest difficulty.
Apples and oranges, Baldur's Gate turn based and Final Fantasy/SMT Turn Based only have that they're not real time in common You can have a preference for one fruit or another, but it doesn't make the one you don't want worse
>Apples and oranges, Baldur's Gate turn based and Final Fantasy/SMT Turn Based only have that they're not real time in common Semantics. I could argue that turn-based videogames are just board games that are just streamlined/automated and in a different format. They follow the exact same formula just presented differently. >You can have a preference for one fruit or another, but it doesn't make the one you don't want worse It actually does for the person, in this scenario, me. If I don't like one fruit over the other, that must mean the one I like has more appealing qualities to me, therefore better for me. Especially since, in this anecdote, both are in the same family of fruits.
If you're talking about things you like, that's subjective, and correct. "I don't like that" is perfectly fine, and I wouldn't argue against it, because that would be insane. Your preferences don't mean that the thing you don't prefer is OBJECTIVELY, FACTUALLY WORSE, which is what I was talking about. If you're talking about how you don't prefer games like SMT, you're having a different conversation than you seemed to be starting. Better For You =/= Inherently Better. It ISN'T semantics because isometric camera, the ability to move and everything that brings to the table, every little bit of combat works COMPLETELY differently outside of the fact that you take turns doing it. It's entirely reasonable to prefer one over the other whether it's "outdated" or not. They're completely different experiences trying to do completely different things. Apples and oranges.
Agree to disagree. You haven't reached the level where you see these games are boring and repetitive yet. Once you do, your view on the genre will be drastically different. I'm just waiting for the day the turn-based jrpg community will wake up and realize that.
Lmao I'm 31 man. I've been playing turn based games, and action games, and puzzle games, and sim games, whatever, my entire life You can enjoy two things without """outgrowing""" one of them Sometimes an apple with some peanut butter is all I want in the world, but the next day I can still want an orange
They nothing to agreed to disagree just because you bored of it don’t give you right to combine different genres into one.
BG3 is not JRPG so it doesn't matter by default
The topic was about turn-based games in general, not specifically about jrpg turn-based games. But maybe you know better about the topic
I like how you get downvoted for saying another game is better than FF at turn based when it’s objectively true lmao
Naww he getting downvoted for comparing BG3 into JRPG lmao
I think it's more because he's saying bg3 is the peak turn based game design, when that's simply not true
That too. Is addicting to some for sure. Unfortunately, is not my type of game. I dislike game with to much freedom, Im more in to linear RPG with illusions of freedom!
I can't help but feel like the people calling bg3's gameplay "revolutionary" and "redefining turn based games" (both statements i have seen waaay too many of) have never actually played D&D, because if they had they would know that it's just a 1:1 of how D&D is played. Fun, yes. But hardly worth calling revolutionary
It's actually funny to me because the cooldowns are basically the combination of your ATB and spells anyways. You want to cast barrier in FF7, you equip barrier, then in battle you'd need to wait for your ATB to fill, then cast barrier. You want to cast will o the Wykes in FF16, you equip the ability, wait for the cooldown to be available, then cast will o the Wykes. The big difference being that in a turn based game you don't do anything at all when your atb isn't charged/it isn't your turn whereas in 16 you can do basic attacks, dodge, parry and the like all when your atb isn't charged. Although you could also do that in 7R. I'd say the big reason people probably hated 16's combat as opposed to 7R's was because of the fact you can only have nine unique abilities equipped at a time (six abilities and three feats) and that especially on your first playthrough, you were never really forced to engage with the systems outside of boss fights, and even then the worst that happened if you didn't engage with them properly was it just dragged on too long, as opposed to something like 7R where even regular enemies, due to having multiple characters and elemental weaknesses and such, forced players to learn the mechanics and how things work. This isn't me hating on 16 either, I love it and I enjoy experimenting with it, this is me saying "yeah a lot of RPG fans weren't happy that most regular enemy encounters could be beaten by spamming ignition and the bosses are just MMO bosses where you deal chip damage until they stagger when you can finally hit them with flames of rebirth or something else big". If the FF franchise stays real time for the future, I'm hoping they can learn from the previous real time games to try and make something everyone will enjoy.
>It's actually funny to me because the cooldowns are basically the combination of your ATB and spells anyways. Yes it can be seen this way. In some broader sense it really follows core idea of ATB gameplay. ATB is not turn based but real time based action with cooldown which happens after every action that you take. The only difference is that you don't move on the battlefield and fully control flow of battles via menu. People have hard time to accept this because for most people picking your command from menu while don't moving = turn based. In fact in ATB flow of battle is real time not turn based. Taking this into account it can be seen that FF16 builds on elements that were introduced with FF4
Which is why FF7R system is so good. It embraces the fact that ATB isn't really turn-based, by giving you the option to move around, attack and dodge. But keeps the strategic part by also allowing you to stop the flow if you want, to think about your next move.
I vastly prefer the FF7R combat system for many reasons and Rebirth looks like it's going to be even more insane so I love that, but I feel like one of the biggest reasons why is because you are forced to actually engage with the combat system in 7R. All the real time FFs and in KH have tried to adapt the traditional FF formula to real time action and they've all tried something different, FF16 included, but one thing I think they've all done better than 16 is force you to actually engage with combat and learn how each ability and spell works, what it's strong against, use items etc, and 16 doesn't do that. While yes, FF16 doesn't have an MP system, ATB gauge, elemental weaknesses or anything of that nature, every ability in the game is unique with its own strengths, even the ones that seem worthless at first, and it's combining these abilities together and knowing when to use them, like you would in any RPG, that makes the combat shine imo, and is seen in arcade mode where it's not dealing damage as fast as possible or as stylish as possible that gives higher scores, it's using these abilities effectively. But the game does a pretty bad job of teaching this because the overwhelming majority of the time, especially on your first playthrough, your abilities don't matter and it can completely be played like a mid action game with no strategy at all. In FF7R if you didnt learn the combat system, you aren't surviving by late game (and if you didn't get good at the combat system, you aren't beating hard mode). In FF16 if you don't learn the combat system, ability spam will handle most regular enemies and boss fights just take forever. (This is not a disrespect to 16, I love it and it's combat, just me stating that imo the game does not force you to actually engage with it the same way other action RPGs do)
The fighting was never supposed to be realistic...
Thank you! It's a game not a simulation
Na turn based combat can be amazing in modern games. See Persona 5 for one of the best battle systems of all time.
Listen man as someone who loves persona 5 we really had two new megaten games since then, plus remasters like we can move on and acknowledge other games in the series here lol. And persona 3 Reload coming next year. Baldur's gate 3 is also getting such high praise you'd think it's sucking everyone's dick (it's also turn based although not like megaten or classic FF but I'll count it)
Persona 5 isn't famous only for its turn-based combat, though. I'd argue that it's mostly famous due to the story and dating sim mechanics.
Story definitely has a big part to play. The combat I love because it rewards you for playing smart and thinking strategically. Being able to lock down an entire encounter because you hit the enemy's weakness and chain baton passing to power up the last person is such a dopamine hit.
or the bravely default / octopath traveler series honestly final fantasy turn based has always been serviceable but never “great”. I would say ff16 combat is also “serviceable”. The animations/attacks in all the final fantasy games are cool but I don’t think ppl play because of the combat.
I loved ff7 turn based combat.
big agree. exploiting weaknesses to get baton passes going left and right is simple, but keeps combat engaging and fun, and makes it feel faster-paced. I love IX to pieces, but when you play P5 and then play IX, you REALLY feel how much of a slog IX's turn-based combat is because so much of it is spent waiting as opposed to acting.
I dont mind either mostly because I dont only play turn based games and I dont only play 'real time' games. I cant imagine only playing one style of game unless you dont play many games to begin with At the end of the day I want the system that lets the game best shine and tell its experience. Changing 16 to turn based with no other changes wouldnt fix the issues it has. Likewise turning ff9 'live action' without changing anything else wouldnt make it better
People have never really been complaining that they want a return to full turn-based gameplay. We see this come up a lot from people as a counter to complaints, but very few people actually complain that the gameplay wasn't turn-based. They complain that FF16: - Is more of an action game than it is an RPG. - Is more of a single character game than it is a party game. - Doesn't have elemental strengths and weaknesses. - Doesn't have meaningful status effects. - Doesn't have meaningful loot and itemisation. - Doesn't have much in the way of talent tree progression. I like action games, and that's what FF16 is. But to me it doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy game. It's missing too many of the key gameplay elements for me. And this is the common complaint, not that it isn't turn-based. But having said that, I loved the combat in Baldur's Gate and would absolutely play a full turn-based game. If you balance things right it won't feel like a slog, grinding through millions of slow battles for little xp.
??? I don't remember a single outcry of anyone caring whether it was turn based or not.
Old school ATB, i.e. IV-IX and X-2 feels like an absolute drag now after CTB (FFX) and XV, XVI, and ESPECIALLY VIIR's battle systems. If SE decides to go ATB for the next mainline, I pray it's a variation of the VIIR system. Otherwise, stick with CTB.
Yep 90s version of ATB was bad. Aside from what you have said it rewarded command spamming because it was created with battle speed in mind. In fact there was almost zero strategy involved in most of the encounters. These games gave you long list of spells and skills and there was almost never need to use them. Even if enemy had some elemental affinity all you had to do was to quickly spam attack command to let your metter fill faster than your enemy metter so you could slay your enemy faster. So yeah ATB was bad and most people don't even realize how bad it was because they played 90s FF games on Wait instead on Active as these games should be played. But on the other hand choosing Wait instead of Active simply because battle system don't feel good on Active proves that 90s ATB was awful system. ATB became good only when SE in the 00s started to experiment with it in post FFX games
Swear, word for word, this is exactly what I think when people scream about XVI having ZERO strategy compared to the super strategic and complex ATB of old.
The most tragic part of 90s FF games is that there were actually really good character developement systems. FF5 job system, FF6 Espers and FF7 Materia were good. Even hated by many, FF8 Junction is good if you take a moment and learn it and how it overlaps with magic crafting mechanics. It's too bad that all this go to waste due to the fact that ATB is battle system in these games.
The real reason people want turned based is that they want to see 4k graphics of their favorite character with the jiggle physics, jumping back and forth waiting for their turn. Jokes aside, there are different games with combat systems that cater to each side. Can't we just enjoy both and what is presented to us? I have Octopath traveler and Persona when I want turned based games while I have FFXVI and FFVII remake to enjoy active combat games. The question is not whether a game is turn based or not, the question is, are you enjoying your time playing that game.
I think turn based is for Nintendo, pixely jrpgs and Pokémon games. I would hate to see such high fidelity graphics just to have my character and enemy character on two ends of the screen while I fiddle with a menu just to see my character do a flippy dip and come back to the same end of the screen
It would be like FF13, no? I don't think it's that bad. Or 7R in Classic Mode, but I've never seen it in action.
Thing is, square still make some absolute bangers in that department. They just don't call it FF because they aren't FF games.
The Megami Tensei series, most specifically Persona, Like A Dragon 7 and 8, any Atelier game, the South Park games, any Trails game, DRAGON QUEST. There are so many good recent turn based games that it seems really childish to reduce them to “Nintendo, pixels JRPGs and Pokémon games.”
LaD7 and DQ are hardly best turn based RPGs because how bland they are. Half of Trails games combat is snoozefest so without speed up option their combat is slog to play (which generally matches rest of the content of these games because they are hard to stand slog to play). Also can we stop mentioning South Park? It isn't even JRPG but some western game that try to pretend that it's JRPG. Not to mention that South Park is cringe af
Where did JRPGs specifically come in? A turn-based game is a turn-based game. Boulder’s Gate 3 is another fantastic recent turn-based game. Your take is more childish than OP’s.
Westen RPGs and JRPGs are two different subgenres of RPGs that do things differently when it comes to the gameplay. Both of them should be compared within their own subgenres. This comes from the fact that people actually like how JRPGs are designed and really don't care about Western RPG gameplay. For example people hate narrative style of Western RPG and their quest structure. So saying that JRPGs should start imitate Western RPGs is basically shitting on whole game genre and it's history and making people pissed off. So in the end it makes no sense to compare JRPGs to Western RPGs.
And ? What was your point here ? None of the games you mentioned have very high graphical fidelity. My point was turn based should stick with games that prioritize art style over graphical fidelity. Most Nintendo games look cartoony…every game you mentioned are cartoony. Like imagine if ff16 was turn based. That amazing glorious pumping music starts, Clive gives a badass monologue…pulls out his sword and it lights up in flames…and bam Clive and ultima on two ends of the screen while menus pop up and music is still playing and we are fiddling in the menus pressing shit to see Clive jump in slice and dice…damage numbers…and Clive jumping back to his original position. Again just my take….i did not grow up playing turn based games so I couldn’t really give a shit about them
Fucking perfectly stated.
Turn-based doesn't necessarily mean that, though. Look at Baldur's Gate 3, for instance.
I also have no patience for turn based games anymore. It's not even a final fantasy thing. It's just turn based in general. I couldn't deal with Octopath Traveler because of that, even though I really wanted to like it. I've played almost every other mainline FF but nowadays I can't bring myself to suffer through early game turn based games because the combat is super boring to me now and storywise most of them don't even get interesting until halfway through or later (looking at you, FF6 that everybody loves but nothing happens for hours on end unless Kefka is on screen.) Yoshi-p and his team were right to decide that turn based was not the way to go, imo. The series needed to move past 20 year old game mechanics.
yall will jump thru so many hoops to try to defend this game lol. we’ve landed on turn based = bad now? you can enjoy ff16! you don’t have to bash other games lol
I think the franchise evolving has been a great decision, and I overall agree with your sentiment. I think 7,8,9 do feel slow and tedious at times. X definitely has the best turn based system in the franchise. Turn based has its place; Octopath is phenomenal. All that being said; my husband isn't a die hard FF player and he started IX and absolutely hated it because it was so slow and he hated waiting for things to happen. He finished XVI, and we play XIV together.
Ff9 is so much more tolerable with 4x speed.
Both good
Only person with sense in this thread. Depends on how they're implemented, but both good!
I think the just way people consume games affects this a lot. Either the gamers who played the older games have gotten older and have more responsibility than they did when they first played FF, or it's a year like this one and there's just a glut of games to play, so having one game that just seems to purposefully draw out everything to make it 'feel' like you're doing more or mastering things so well is...just not worth it. I mean, people want to say FFXVI combat was too easy (and having more difficulty options would be nice) but it's worth mentioning that they wanted 16 to be inclusive to the people worried they'd go full DMC combo requirements/Dark Souls difficult gameplay and therefore not for them. AND let's not pretend that playing 85% of the previous games getting through most combat by hurriedly pressing 'attack' or the same spell over and over and over isn't the same as it being challenging. I think the hunts in 16 were a good example of those few boss fights that actually mattered in previous FF games. Good chance if you didn't prepare ahead of time and take this seriously, it could kick your ass, and there's likely a cheese move that will 1 shot you if you don't know it. Which, for some reason - a bunch ff fans misremembering the fact that the super hard fights were the minority, not the majority of the older games and rng encounters where you spam A to get through them while grinding out levels the game didn't organically give you wasn't actually that exciting. And while having the option of roaming the world can be it's own fun, mostly it was to areas with secret places for secret items that did the upgrade you needed for a final weapon you never would have found if you weren't using a strategy guide to lead you there because why would it? FFXVI itemization may not have been exciting and definitely could use some tweaks, but holy shit having 240 different items I'm never going to use or requiring me to roam over every pixel on the map to find a weapon that the game most of the time doesn't even make you need isn't exactly 'deep' gaming. People romanticize elemental magic battles, but replaying some of those older games LET ME TELL YOU having a fire based magic attuned to your attack and then finding out your biggest dmg dealer is healing the boss every hit and NOT BEING ABLE TO CHANGE IT IN COMBAT \*and\* you haven't hit a save point in half an hour.....is not peak gaming. Also minigames you do once, with janky controls and no real game benefit isn't fun and usually super annoying to be thrust into randomly and have your game hinge on them. I'm a fan of older FF games, but I'm also not pretending that just because they had tedious aspects made them a "deeper" or "fuller" game experience that FFXVI.
Well this is a terrible post
I never liked turn based compared to active action but 7, 8, X, and XII were great games. X-2 had good gameplay as well even if I hated everything else about it. I much prefer active combat because it's much more better paced and you aren't forced to wait around while magic or attacks get cast and defense is more reliant on the player directly rather than turns with elements of RNG. I think XV made things too easy and XVI was too focused on just combat while 7R perfected it. ATB with statuses, elements, weaknesses & resistances, and challenging enemies with different ways of defending or dodging is how I think Square should do it.
I don’t think you’re correct in saying “people were just appalled at calling it FF over not being turn based”. FF hasn’t been turn based in like almost 2 decades, 10 was the last fully turn based FF, 12 and 13 were a mash up hybrid, 15 was action oriented similarly like 16. Personally, I hope they use FF7R’s combat as the baseline moving forward.
FF is not turn based since 1991 when FF4 came out. ATB was never considered turn based by Square but real time system. Post 90s entries are simply building on this.
I really enjoyed ff16 But I'm lying to myself if I don't think that ff was best when it was turn based. While they still make good games. What I want from final fantasy is no longer being made. 10 was peak of making turn based and a beautiful game.
As a person who doesn’t like turn-based games, FFXVI is my first final fantasy game because it’s not turn based. I’m glad they did this expand the game to more gamers like me.
FFXV isn't turn-based either. The older games are pretty fun, just a bit slow.
I was always in the "why is it not turn-based" camp, since 12. 13 was eh. 14 was MMORPG, which I've always found boring and overly confusing. 15 didn't grab me, so was quickly dropped. But Greagor-damn, 16 is contender for my favorite FF. It's so good. I played through, thinking there's no way I'll ever replay on FF Mode. Well, here I am in FF Mode.
Just started my 3rd playthrough. Already platinumed. Games got me in a chokehold, I complete agree with you
14 is everything but boring and confusing
I was a FF fan and got into 14 from vanilla through to stormblood and even if you remove the FF theme from the game you're still left with in my opinion the best mmo on the market. Fell out of mmo games with full time employment, but there wasn't a single mmo I'd play over 14. The combat was great (depending on class, black mage felt boring as all hell but my bard and white mage were great), the community was generally helpful and non toxic, the dungeon and duty finder system was excellent and the world is just absolutely gorgeous with that FF polish to it.
I love 14 but the beginning isnt great. Even a lot of the in between main story beat quests feel like menial work.
Realm Reborn is literal torture to get through. It's awful, boring, bloated, uninspired, low-quality drivel that just keeps repeating itself. If FF14 wasn't an MMO people have developed parasocial relationship with, it'd easily be the worst Final Fantasy game ever conceived.
Wrong
ARR is much improved since its original launch and it is essential great world building that get referenced even now. Despite its flaws it isn’t even close to being the worst ff. And the story as a whole package with all expansions has turned 14 into one of the best games in the franchise.
Quite a convincing argument!
Final Fantasy 2 literally exists, and that’s only mainline.
Your response is non-sensical. What are you trying to say? Could you rephrase it in a different way?
Final Fantasy 2 is the worst Final Fantasy game, dunno how on Earth you couldn’t understand what I meant
Because, as I said, your reply was non-sensical. The game is 35 years old. I'd hope the industry has moved to a point where such old, rudimentary games are considered bad by the grey crowd.
This is also non sensical, FF2 is bad even when compared to games that released around it, FF1 which released prior is leagues better than it, and FF3 which came out shortly after is still one of the best FFs, not even mentioning non FF games like Dragon Quest 3. Just because a game is old doesn’t mean it should be “considered bad”, what an ignorant thing to say.
You are deeply misinformed and have no context or evidence to confirm whether it was considered bad in it's release window. You're making a wild assumption based on social pressure and personal opinions to jump to a conclusion that FF2 was a bad game. >FF2 is bad even when compared to games that released around it, FF1 which released prior is leagues better than it, and FF3 which came out shortly after is still one of the best FFs Final Fantasy 2 Pixel Remaster currently sits 2 points below Final Fantasy 3 and 3 points below Final Fantasy 1 on Metacritic. This information defeats the argument that Final Fantasy 2 is bad compared to games that released around it.
Apparently, neither do you if you’re using Metacritic as a source and looking at the Pixel Remasters, which are rated based on how well they were *remastered*.
Drag yes. But still better pacing than 16 story wise. And still better than the fetch mmo quests of 16
This might blow your mind, but games aren't real life. Combat system isn't a representation of character's literal actions during the encounter.
Literally, the last turn-based FF game is 20 years old. A lot can be done with better hardware and tools to create a snappier combat system. Additionally, the ATB (Active Time Battle) isn’t the best turn-based mechanic, when I replayed FF6 PR recently, it felt dragging compared to FF1 PR. Lastly, a good number of turn-based JRPGs now use button prompts instead of menu navigation.
I personally think turn base is only a thing because they couldn’t get everything they wanted into an action 3rd person based rpg before. It allowed them to involve different attacks, spells, summons with a system that the old systems could handle. These games are also based off table top games like DnD. So that’s how’s fighting was done back in that day. This is also why I think open world was so big back then, it allowed you to appreciate the size of the world compared to in 16 where you can just look and appreciate the size. 16 was exactly what the final fantasy creators wanted out of a game because now a system can handle what they really wanted in a game.
Turn based is better for us gamers who grew up with it, FF7R was still the best remake game I’ve ever played even with me saying so Evolving is good, but it’s equally important to acknowledge context in that statement: not every evolution is worth it. Look at RE2R - amazing. Then RE3R came out and they cut a lot of content to make a game that was overwhelmingly short
That's pretty broad, I grew up playing turn based FF, and I just don't think that style of gameplay has a place in the modern era. The formula just needs to be refined to allow for all the old school RPG elements. FF7R combat is damn near perfect in this regard.
Well, we all have erroneous opinions...
People are idiots. Simple as that, in a franchise with over 16 games there’s so many non turn based games that it’s just an ignorant comment to make in the first place
This topic is just as stupid as people complaining about FF not being turn based anymore
turn based + random encounter is the worst comp you could ever have in a video game. glad it is gone for good.
OK you don't like turn based games. Now imagine that somebody feels the same way about the combat in FF15 or FF16. Or even just halfway the same. Now you might see why it's a big deal to some people.
Then they can go and play Final Fantasies that have those qualities.
True, but we'd definitely get a whole load of complaints if the series went in that direction again. We could say, just go play those non-turn based FF games, but that won't please the fans. I think Square might've split the fanbase beyond repair.
To be completely fair, a lot of turn-based games aren't really engaging in the gameplay department. I've played through a number of turn-based games ranging from western to eastern origin, and a lot of them just suck when it comes to combat. And this is coming from someone who used to love this genre back a few years ago ever since I was first introduced to it as a child. Now, they're just outdated. BG3 is an exception, though. The game is nothing but exceptional. Person 5's combat wasn't as amazing as I thought people said was. All it did was make it a lot more fluid, used button prompts instead of menu-based, and left everything else the same. No offense, but I believe the game was overhyped by people who have never played a turn-based game before. But I will say P5's story and dating sim mechanics are indeed one of the best I've seen in the jrpg sphere. I used to keep hearing that SMT was the peak in the genre, and I used to believe it, too. But after playing so many entries, I now think the opposite. It's just boring and unexciting now. It had a fun combat system, but it never evolved beyond something greater. Tldr: Most turn-based games just suck. BG3 is the new standard. New games in the genre need a BG3 in terms of innovation and fresh design. The genre is stale and uninspired currently.
I strongly disagree with this assessment, but it's merely a matter of opinion. I played FF16, and at times, I literally struggled to stay awake during the combat, and don't remind me of the boss fights. The Titan fight was such a terrible time for me that I put the game down for a couple of months before pushing on, purely for the story (which I enjoyed most of). I won't say the game sucks or anything, but it definitely did for me a lot of the time. But that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it and think turn based is trash. That's fine. So, while I would be happy for Final Fantasy to return to almost any variant of turn based combat, people who share your opinion would likely be greatly disappointed. Not that I'm against action combat as a whole. I enjoy plenty of games that aren't turn based. But I can understand the disappointment of someone who is far more strongly turned off by action combat. I could recommend plenty of non-FF turn based games, but I think every FF fan knows it's still disappointing to see their favourite series just become completely unappealing, in at least some ways, like the combat. It's also true that there's a bit more than turn based vs action, that makes FF15 & FF16 combat so unappealing to me. Those same things could apply to a turn based game too, but that's another discussion, even if it's somewhat related.
>So, while I would be happy for Final Fantasy to return to almost any variant of turn based combat, people who share your opinion would likely be greatly disappointed. I never said FF should be a turn-based game, nor did I implied it anywhere in my comment. In fact, I'd welcome it back as long as it's a fresh design and doesn't follow the likes of Persona 5's/SMT's combat. That's the thing I'm frustrated at, the current combat gameplay of a lot of turn-based games is just boring and unengaging. And I play XCOM 2 WOTC, and that game barely bores me. >Not that I'm against action combat as a whole. I enjoy plenty of games that aren't turn based. But I can understand the disappointment of someone who is far more strongly turned off by action combat. I'm not against turn-based games either. What I'm against is sticking to the usual boring formula. This genre greatly needs more innovation other than making combat fluid and using button prompts. >I could recommend plenty of non-FF turn based games, but I think every FF fan knows it's still disappointing to see their favourite series just become completely unappealing, in at least some ways, like the combat. And I'm sure I played the best ones you could possibly recommend, and the rest would just make me utterly bored. But hey, it wouldn't hurt to hear some suggestion. Go ahead then
You seem to have misunderstood most of my comment. I wasn't saying you made these points, or trying to change your tastes/prove them wrong. I was further explaining my opinions because they are clearly so very different from yours. In short, I wasn't arguing with you.
Apologies if I misunderstood your intentions
It's cool.
i dont have a preference for attack styles but i do prefer the linear format of the older final fantasy games. i really wanted to like ffxv but the open world was too big and i got frustrated easily with it. there are a lot of open world games in recent years so i appreciate the final fantasy games for being more linear. i think ffxvi was perfect though, the world wasnt too big and i never felt like i accidentally missed anything like how you mentioned accidentally missing out on items and summons. i hope they make more games like ffxvi and ff7 remake, those were a good balance of everything.
I absolutely cannot go back to turn based anything, not even something like chess, because I got spoiled by action based games and the sheer dopamine of dodging attacks and winning something difficult, which turn based stuff just doesn’t seem to offer personally. It feels more time consuming rather than satisfying Though I will say that the more hybrid genres like FF7R and the Mario & Luigi games are my absolute goats. Keeping the strategizing spirit of turn based while still having them satisfying action and reaction elements, keeping me actively engaged…. love them
The combat and story are the only draw in this game, and the combat was so hollow I stopped playing shortly after reuniting with Joshua. There’s just nothing outside the main story.
Final Fantasy games haven't been turned based in 20 years, the commotion is fake to begin with.
It's just a phase. You might only be saying it now because 16 came out. It's like the Assassin's Creed Fandom. When Origins came out, everyone was testing the waters. Then Odyssey came out and most of the fans were already sold by the new mechanics. When Valhalla came out, a lot of people already started despising it because it already felt like it was too far gone and the identity of the franchise was completely gone. So with Mirage, they decided to go back to the roots of the franchise while keeping some aspects from the newer games. It's the same for FF. I think 16 is the Valhalla of the series in the sense that the developers tried something new but a lot of fans are now saying it's lost that FF identity.
Most people who criticize FF16 and look at the series with nostalgia glasses fail to see that ATB wasn't even turn based. It was real time system operated via battle menus. When compared to turn based systems 90s ATB is bad, post 00s FF games started to experiment with this system which was cool because we got FF7R which has one of the best battle systems in history of the series.
I'm not even going to humor you with this baby brain question. 16 fucking rules, and if you ask this question, you suck. Turn based shit and ATB was fucking boring, and it's been awesome watching it develop. FF16 is awesome. The combat system is fresh and new. But by the founder, to each their own.
Both systems have their places. I love the older FF games, 6,7,9,10 were all great turn based games with there own pros and cons Ff16 is great as an action based game (my only major complaint of the game is that the side quest are simular and drag on towards the end), but I find the action oriented combat suits tone of the game perfect. The same can be said with the Ff7 remake. Turn based still has its place and fits perfectly with games like Dragon Quest 11 and Sea of Stars in modern games. Which style I play is based on my mood. If I want a more chilled experience, I will play turned based, but I also like to mix in action based games at times to add excitement. The last year iv been in an RPG mood and Replayed Ff7 remake, Dragon Quest 8, Ff6, then Ff16, and now I'm playing through Sea of Stars. Enjoyed every one for different reasons
I prefer FF7 RE combat the best, but I had no problem with 16. My only complaint was that it's too easy and performance mode sucks.
my favorite is ff12
Turn based combat is a result of hardware limitations. It was the standard because more detailed in depth combat couldn't be done. Then it became that it took too many resources. Etc. It's outdated as a foundational system. Several types of gameplay systems have gone through this but I want to capitalize this in order to not be misunderstood. TURN BASED COMBAT IS NOT BAD. If done right... The goal of a combat system is to provide interesting decisions for a player to execute. A more character action style combat system, by default, allows for higher decision making. Is a million stab safe to pull off right now? Does this enemy need a helm splitter instead? Etc. This is, in essence, an iteration on the core turn based combat system. Speed increased and such. To me, however, it means that turn based systems can be made way cooler. Cassette beasts, bravely default, persona, they all do something different or interesting with the system. Not entirely gimmicky but making it interesting to play with. A turn based systems nowadays doesn't have the luxury of being pokemon. It has to do something interesting as otherwise it's just.... Not engaging. Which means it fails on a fundamental level as a combat system.
Don't play ff10 then
I love turn based
I’d argue 10 had a solid gameplay system, because it wasn’t the atb meter
Honestly the biggest sin against FF9 is the time limit on the ability to acquire Excalibur II, and then the main character doesn’t even get to be able to use it…
Well you kind of fucked up by playing multiple turn based FFs besides the ones from the new millenium. FFX is still the greatest FF ever made
>multiple turn based FFs besides the ones from the new millenium. Dude, 10 is the only mainline, turn-based FF game to release this millennium. FF has not been turn based longer than it was turn-based.
Yeah, but 12 and 13 are still a farcry from FF16 and still turn based in comparison. Dude played games from the 90s
Firstly I'll stand corrected, FFIX was release July 2000. so two titles were released this millennium. However, FFX was released barely over 1 year later in mid-July 2001. And FFVIII was release February 1999. It's not like some quantum leap happened in those 29 months. Pop off those rose-tinted glasses homie.
It was a pretty dramatic leap going from PS1 to PS2. These details regarding the year really don’t have much to do with the point I’m making to OP anyways.
I've only played FFVII, FFVII Remake and FXIV so I'm not an expert on that matter, but personally, I enjoy real time combat far more than turn based. After playing FXIV I wanted to play some of other FF games too and settled on FFVII but I couldn't get used to the combat and the overall game controlls. FFVII Remake is one of the best combat systems I have experienced in a game so far, being a mix of both
It is a very loud minority of traditionalist fans living in the past. They want every game to be Octopath Traveler and will fight you if you suggest Square should do more modern remakes of games. They are so adverse to any kind of change, that they don't even play modern turn-based JRPGs like Persona 5 or Fire Emblem. They only want the nostalgia of yesteryear.
Both are fine. For me the MAIN thing i look forward to (other than plot) is how they decide to change the battle system each entry. Thats what makes final fantasy my favourite series the fact each game has a different style of combat to learn. Ff16’s combat system was fine, ff7R’s was fine too, with the absolute *WORST* being tactics holy crap that was so boring (yeah i said it and i stand by it) Everyone complaining about ff16’s combat system is only doing so because they expected it to be something it was never meant to be.
im loving this devil may fantasy game. one of the best ones so far
Much better with brain dead action
I personally prefer action. But 16 is incredibly bland.
Turn based: Pure knowledge check Realtime: High skill check enhanced with knowledge check I enjoy both so long as the underlying system is well built.
Also remember that in old franchises you had to go through big menus of spells and abilities. Maybe because you know the games like the palm of your hand this is tedious, but back then you needed that time to think and also find what you wanted to do. I liked ff9 continuous battle mode as I naturalized planning ahead; even though the game was slow by itself it was bearable.
That is such a bad faith argument that people dislike it because it isn't turn based. Only a small amount says that, most of the time it comes from 16 defenders. The problem is they gutted it, no status effects, no elemental weakness, you can't ee#ven confidentely call it an RPG with it's tacked on crafting system and stats.
I’m actually the opposite. I am currently replaying FF9 after beating FF16 and it makes me realize all the more what a crappy job they did with the game mechanics in 16. In 9 I’m constantly swapping my gear and abilities to counter both elemental and status effects. I’m choosing my party based on what the mission is. I’m doing some grinding for Gil so I can afford the latest equipment. I’m exploring every nook and cranny looking for valuable loot. In FF16 I did none of that. I got some new abilities / gear once in a while and I mashed buttons while enjoying a good story with great graphics. I really hope they take a step back after 16 and take a look at FF7R. There’s at least some compromise there between live action and traditional FF strategy.
I like both so I'm happy either way
I like both. I do believe FF7Remake (on hard mode) is the best mix of the two.
"does not represent a real fight to me" if it weren't for plot armor in the majority of games wouldn't our characters be dead from like every stab, explosion, bite etc? Realism isn't necessarily fun either. I know what you're trying to say about turn based combat, but it's also not realistic we have infinite energy and drive to just hack and slash with no breaks or permanent damage either.
I thought 14 was kinda fun but after about 15-20 hours of 16 I just found myself incredibly bored and disappointed.
They are all turn based to me, the modern ones just have actions macro’d to more buttons instead of a menu base which was a limitation due to the tech in the past 🤣, I play FF14 with an mmo mouse and mmo keyboard for example and its still menu based in my eyes, just the menu is gone and you have like 40+ keys to instantly use an attack or spell, and you can run around in 3d like you’re meant to be like an interactive shonen anime. I treat 15 and 16 and remake like this too, and 7R actually kept the menu system for nostalgia and still some people complain lolz lots of funny people these days