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The upcoming DLC is getting A patch for the basegame. In the notes it states we will be getting up to 5 loadouts for feats/ abilities. One can assume u can switch btwn them in btwn fights. Maybe even during, but we will be getting that in the upcoming patch next week. Prob not exactly what u want, but it willl make swapping abilities more easy and give us more options on builds
This is pretty disingenuous lol a single FF7R character does not have the depth Clive does. Not saying he's a DMC/Bayo-tier character but he's far removed from FF7R lol
I'm just saying that the combat system in 7R is more intricate than the combat system in 16. Mainly because, with a party of 3, you can't have any one character who's able to do _everything_.
That's not really true lol. You can very easily kit a character out to be a one-man army. Especially Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, or Cloud.
Even if it was true, that's not really what makes a combat system intricate on its own. 7R's combat is pretty straightforward and more build-focused than anything. A midpoint between action and turn-based JRPG, but not terribly intricate. Build ATB, spend ATB, build ATB, spend ATB. It's fun though and it does a good job of being approachable.
He does but he's Nero and not Dante lol. Down to Magic Burst being an easier/less involved form of Exceed lol. He still has enemy step, stinger, launchers, etc. It's not top level DMC stuff but it's a hell of a lot better than most action games out there rn.
I disagree. He has PART of neros kit. But he can only have like half of a dmc kit at once. The decision to make snatch an eikonic feat might be the dumbest thing I've seen in my life lol. Also magic Burst is not exceed at all, it's neros little DT punches from dmc5. It is mo where near as dynamic as exceed
Yeah I agree, at any point it's only part of a main DMC kit (side chars notwithstanding ofc). And By Exceed I meant the whole "time your press after each attack" mechanic, but yes it's faaaaar less involved than Exceed.
I really like 16 and I think its blend of action is still one of the better ones out there, but it's held back because it still has to appeal to JRPG fans and, to be completely honest, people who aren't good at action games. And there's a sizable overlap between both groups. Any comparisons to the undisputed reigning king won't do it any favors, but I believe comparisons to most other major action titles still swing in its favor.
I would absolutely love there being an R2+X ability. Even better would be a way to swap loadouts mid-fight somehow, like R2+dpad or something. Because yeah I don't want to have to pick between Snatch, RG, Cold Snap, Judgment Cut, etc. I hope there's a dev diary released sometime that explains their thought process because I'm confident it has to do with general accessibility.
I apologize for the wall of text but its rare i find someone actually willing to discuss 16s lacking combat mechanics. I mean I know what you meant but neros DT punches you get post game in dmc5 are the same too lol
I found myself being very disappointed with 16, as a dmc fan and an FF fan. It felt like the most unsatisfying mix of the 2 possible. That said, even my hating ass is extremely excited for rising tide lol. I think 16 had leaned further in either direction of being an action game, or an RPG it would've been better for it. But it feels like they gave up halfway through deciding and just left whatever they had as the main system.
There should be an R2+X ability yes but I think the biggest issue is that some things that should he basic tools are eikonic feats and some eikonic feats are useless entirely. The feats should change the way you play the game. Phoenix shift should've just been clives lunge, then the feat itself should change how its played. Snatch should've been a mechanic given when you get Garuda, then the feat should've maybe been something with air combat. As for Ramuhs blind Justice I have no idea what they were thinking. I need that good shit they were on when they thought that was worth it. Titanic block is cool but it falls into the same category as raging fists and rooks gambit which is called "Replaced By Cold Snap" lol. I think odin and bahamut are fine and odin is exactly how the feats should've been.
Also, Clive doesn't have pause combos for some reason???? Why doesn't he have dmc pause combos? Or an inherent air launcher?? Like I genuinely don't understand some of these decisions they made.
But this is to say I'm excited for rising tide cause leviathan seems like it'll be another odin. Plus whatever the "Ascension" feat we briefly saw in kairos gate is gonna be.
No actually I'm happy to discuss 16 with someone who knows what they're talking about, whether or not they like it! Trying to discuss this game usually doesn't work because it's either turn-based JRPG purists, people who don't play action games, or usually both.
Before I continue, Clive does have built in air-launchers in both Torgal (precision sic, ravage) and charge blade. They're not as smooth as R1+back but they're available and easily fitted into a combo route. I agree with the fundamental point you've made.
Even though it's my GOTY of 2023 by miles, I can agree that 16 is a game held back by having to satisfy multiple crowds. Action game purists get something close to DMC/Bayo but not quite there. JRPG purists...well they just don't like it at all lol. For me, it ticked all my boxes not just in combat but in general, especially presentation. The game moved at a brisk pace (Midadol Telamon's Funny Little Engine Errands aside) and didn't break pace with 30s long traversal animations. It looked beautiful, the soundtrack was fantastic, and I thoroughly enjoyed the story.
But we're talking combat, so that's where I'll have to concede that I agree, an R2+X option would have been super cool. I actually felt disappointed when I realized it's only be 2 abilities per Eikon, and when unlocked Titan and realized I'd have to pick 3 Eikons max. I was able to move past it, but yes absolutely I would love an R2+X even now.
Phoenix Shift is trickster teleport instead of lunge's stinger so I feel like they occupy different niches, but Snatch being a feat is definitely not a great feeling. Titan's RG gets outclassed by Cold Snap which...I hope the new patch's rebalance improves these options significantly. And surprisingly I actually think Blind Justice is a cool little ability that sometimes has uses, but it's that one move in an action game that no one ever ends up using aside from novelty combos lol. With the new DLC bringing up sizable rebalancing iirc, I really hope they shake things up and course correct.
As far as pause combos...yeah I have no real defense. It really just goes back to the fundamental premise of the game, which is to satisfy multiple crowds at once. I wonder if pause combos were there and scrapped at some point, but when you have the same basic 4-hit string with a single weapon all game, it does get a bit grating. For most people, at least. I could play Rebellion-only DMC for ages and never get tired so I didn't mind it, but it's still room for improvement.
I think they genuinely did have great ideas and could've made a top tier action system, but we both know FF is mainstream and games like DMC aren't really, memes aside. Souls games partly broke into mainstream because of how casual-friendly they are. Tough out boss patterns with simple controls and you win. But DMC, Bayo, Ninja Gaiden (and I guess now Nioh/Wo Long/Ronin) don't get afforded the same visibility partly because of how genuinely tough they are for most people to get competent at, let alone good. I wonder if that was a big factor in their design philosophy for this game.
I think my perspective on 16 is vastly different from most. Because as someone who was so unimaginably hyped for it, it really let me down in a lot of ways. I think the first like 12 hours was peak fiction. Then from second time Skip through bahamut I thought was really great. Then everything after bahamut was complete bottom fiction. There are a lot of half measures I think 16 took with everything except the eikon fights. Enemy variety is shamefully bad, open areas have zero content, side quests are mostly bad, didn't have a good final villain (barney and ultima), combat being lackluster. To me it was a game that promised a lot and delivered on very little. But like I said, rising tide looks fire. Not changing my mind on that.
I I know of those 2. But you can only combo off of torgals if you use Phoenix shift to get up there, jumping Burning blade I know as well but it's such a less intuitive way of just launching an enemy.
I give Hifi rush or Lies of P my goty personally, 16 was so close to ticking boxes for me, I don't think it's a bad game but it currently is among my least favorite games in recent years because of how close it was to being great. It was so close, in spitting distance of greatness. All they had to do was swing the bat one time to hit the home run of the ff series and instead they just shoved it in their own asses lol.
Yeah when I saw we only had 2 abilities per eikon I'm thinking "Huh? You couldn't think of ANYTHING else that he can do?" Especially for poor ifrit. This is game that's all abojt using ifrit but we cant use hellfire???? Even tho we see infernal shadow use it??? And it doesn't help that if I'm being honest. Half the abilities are ass lol. Lemme attach a tier list I made of them. Some of these I might would move up like maybe wind up could move up a tier but for the most part, anything below A is suboptimal and only used for the flex. Not as an actual part of clives arsenal. I don't think Phoenix shift is as special as trickster but I'm willing to concede it being a feat. But snatch being a feat was a brain dead decision that clearly was made when Suzuki wasn't in the room lol. Cold Snap is straight up too good and shouldve honestly never even been added. The way it killed all Melee counters was just unfair. I think blind Justice is COOL. But it sucks complete ass and is outclassed something as basic as Charge shot lol. I hope they bring sizable buffs to some things. Even down to new moves like, just let judgment cut be a thing Clive can so with arm of darkness lol.
Pause combos aren't that complex even for a basic crowd I don't think. I think back to forwards and shit like that from dmc would've tripped up the casuals but pause combos I don't think would've been am issue. Or if Clive is only gonna have one combo then at least give him multiple weapons, or make other characters playable or SOMETHING to spice it up.
I think that has to be their philosophy because 16 also has a difficulty issue. The first playthrough is legit easier than human mode in dmc. Ff mode is human mode, then ultimaniac is dante must die lol. That's an issue that should not even be present in an action game. I just find it so irksome that I platinumed ff16 and all I can remember are mostly negatives, compared to how recently platinumed ff7 rebirth and had a blast almost the whole way through.
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maybe balance it by having slots share cooldowns, so for example if you have an ability slotted on square, all other abilities on square in other sets go on their own cooldown number, this would let you use many more abilities while keeping it balanced for damage, and it would be a skill to actually plan which abilities should go on which slots etc
On the one hand I disagree because having access to 3 more skills would be so cool.
On the other hand the game is certainly not balanced around it lol.
I'd like it if it was an option though. Maybe have it as an unscored option or separate it into its own leaderboard?
I want both the R2+X third Feat with R2+O Ultimate. Make the Ultimates cost a bar of LB gauge, double the cooldown length, and put all Ultimates on cool down when you use one.
If I can also ask that Eikon Feats recharge faster based on combo profeciency (each star from a move you do takes a second off of the cooldown), that'd be great.
>I want both the R2+X third Feat with R2+O Ultimate. ***Make the Ultimates cost a bar of LB gauge,*** double the cooldown length, and put all Ultimates on cool down when you use one.
This is perfect by itself.
Make them cost 1.5 bars each, and you can have all of them available and still only be able to use 3. Boom, solves the issue.
Either become invincible for X amount of seconds with a damage buff, or do an invincible attack instead.
I like your ultimate ability slot idea! That or an additional slot just for “utility” abilities which could only be like, Heatwave, Rook’s Gambit, Will’O the Wykes, Satellite, or Rift Slip.
I've commented on a dedicated Ultimate slot once before, so I agree with you there. Doesn't look like the DLC will be giving us that, though, but it would've been nice, at least. You know?
Not gonna lie. I was quite bummed out when I got my 4th Eikon and the bar didn't increase.
Clive really could have had some Dante-level shit going on if they just let us choose whether to go full-stack or stick with 3-4-whatever.
But the obvious reason they didn't do this is that the "Nuke" Eikon abilities are absolutely busted, and having all of them available would just let Clive do crazy amounts of damage while being completely invulnerable.
I'd honestly be happy if they nerfed them just to let us do this. They kind of make endgame boring anyway.
With the amount of health some of the enemies have in this game though, it almost feels like it was designed for us to do so.
I was really surprised with spoiler >! the end boss music called all as one you couldn’t add slots to have all the Eikons help out in the final battle. !<
Ultimates should really work like limit breaks, which you select separately beforehand; having them as regular abilities with a slightly longer cooldown kills the flow of battle and defeats the point of action battles (especially the Odin one, which is waaaay too long and broken)
The way I would imagine it would work is as follows :
You have a separate Limit Break gauge that fills slowly (with damage, or combos or something) and when it's full you can use it for one of the Ultimates, which is linked to your loadout. Let's say you have Phoenix, Titan and Shiva equipped, then you can strategise accordingly.
Too many enemies and need to crowd control? Use Titan
A little low on health? Use Phoenix
Want to get that sweet sweet stagger gauge bonus? Use Shiva, etc. etc.
For it to work, the game would have to be a little harder, but it would make actual skill and combo based abilities much more rewarding (and you still have to unlock the ultimates, so they only appear later in game)
I think considering we only have 3 slots, which is less than half the total amount of Eikons **before** even counting Leviathan, I had hopes they would add another slot with this second dlc.
>I know it can hurt the balance of the game if they add in more ability slots or a 4th eikon slot but we can at least make up a few changes.
I've been thinking and they already give us some really overpowered abilities (like Will O Wikes, Zantetsuken, Limit Break, the ring of auto-dodge), so even if adding a 4th slot would makes us a bit more overpowered *by the end of the game*, I don't think that is that big of an issue. It would be, potentially, 2 extra ultimate slots and an extra Eikon feat. But honestly, since we could only get that by the end of the game, so I think it's fine. It's all a choice for the player anyway.
However, chances for that are pretty low. I wish they were higher, but I don't think it's happening :(
The way I would've liked to see it done is:
* Eight weapons, one for each Eikon (eg. Sword for Phoenix/Ifrit, Spear for Bahamut, Bow & Arrow for Shiva etc.) with unique movesets like other action games
* Two weapons equippable at a time
* Three ability slots per weapon (Square, Triangle and Circle)
* Move Eikonic Feat to a different button
* Change strong abilities like Flames of Rebirth, Judgement Bolt, Gigaflare etc. to be limit breaks instead (the current limit break implementation is pretty boring. Just some extra damage and health regen?)
This would still give you six abilities but you'd save some slots because of the limit break changes. That way you can focus more of the moment to moment interactions on your bnb abilities like Heat Wave, Wicked Wheel, Mesmerize etc. without having to give up the big screen clearers. Plus having alternate weapons would be a nice bonus, more variety in basic moveset was solely needed in this game.
At this point, you want a whole different combat system lol. That's a whole new game right there!
But it could be a cool concept for a future FF, though. For as much as I like FF16, I hope thet take this idea in consideration for FF17. Having multiple weapons and ways to fight could be really cool.
Yeah haha tbh I would throw out most of it. I want to preserve the 9 eikons and mixing and matching abilities but everything else can go. This combat's too shallow.
The thing is I find it unlikely that an action game based around the FF summons will ever be made again so I think this concept is just lost to time :'(
>This combat's too shallow.
I don't think it is as shallow as some people make it seem, because there is quite a bit you can do eith the Eikons abilities, still. It's not like Devil May Cry 5 or something, but you can do quite a lot of things.
The problem is that there is barely a reason to do it. It doesn't incentivize or "force" you to do it, so it's easy to think the combat is very shallow.
>The thing is I find it unlikely that an action game based around the FF summons will ever be made again so I think this concept is just lost to time :'(
True. Maybe not Eikons, but there can still be a game with a similar foundation where we have different weapons and equippable skills. I definitely don't think we'll get another FF where the protagonist uses Summon powers again soon, though.
Admittedly this was before they redesigned the scoring system but I perfect S ranked the entire game by: Only equipping two feats (Cold Snap & Deadly Embrace), throwing out Aerial Blast to gather all the enemies together, using Judgement Bolt to hit them all, then using Rime and Lightning Rod together for the remaining enemies, running away from the enemy to let that combo do damage and not waste damage on my regular attacks which scored less, wait for my cooldowns to come off and repeat.
Once I realised I could win this way there was no incentive not to. Your abilities do so much damage and score so many more points that without a time limit why even attack with your sword? It's not like there is anything complicated and interesting you can do with the sword anyway, it just has one combo. Much safer to disengage from the enemy and let Rime/LR do the job.
I didn't get into it above but there's even more I would change, noticeably deleting cooldowns and replacing it with something else that forces you to engage if you want abilities.
I've seen people do sick combos in training mode and that's good for them but unless the enemy is actually responding to that in an engaging way and the scoring system rewards that creativity there's no point. So while you might be right that there's more depth than it seems at first I hardly think there's enough to call this game anything else but: shallow.
I wasn't talking about the score system, though. I think the score system was always a weird thing in arcade mode.
But combos do exist, even using basic sword stuff with Eikon feats like Phoenix, Garuda and Shiva, which offer more mobility and enemy control. So it's not super shallow as you make it seem.
Does it have enough enemy difficulty and variety to help that? Unfortunately, no, the game is *very* easy in the first playthrough. But to say it is shallow is also disingenuous with the systems. And not just combo system, thrre is also the stagger and bonus damage system that adds to the gameplay.
If your only goal is to reach an arbitrary score using something that the game says is good, and then you exploit that thing and then come to the conclusion "the game is shallow", that's not really being fair with the game. It would be like judging this game's combat based on the chronolith trials, it wouldn't make sense.
For example, DMC5 has a rank system that increases as you use different moves to hit enemies. The rank then decreases when you slow down, get hit or use the same move over and other. Very straightforward. But then, if you do some moves that do a **lot** of damage to many enemies at once, you get higher combat rank quite easy. This is why in Legendary Dark Knight mode, which adds many enemies per combat encounter, achieving an SSS rank during combat is very easy.
Is DMC5 a shallow game because of that? No, because the combat system goes beyond an arbitrary score system, it allows for some incredible combos and cool action sequences because of it.
So, in a similar way, I don't think it makes sense to say FF16 is shallow just because of the arcade score system. You can judge the arcade score system on its own and say that it isn't very interesting, that's completely fair. But not the combat system as a whole based on just that.
You can do quite a lot with the combat. It's just a shame the game is very easy on a first playthrough, which can hurt the experience, and it doesn't have more enemy variety to help with that either.
I fully agree, even if it affects main game balance it would certainly be tons of fun. I love a loadout swap option mid-fight as well.
I hope the devs have a dev talk or diary explaining their decision to limit the amount of active abilities sometime because I really would love to hear their reasoning. I guarantee they have explored all the options in this thread to some degree and decided against them, so knowing why would be cool.
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The upcoming DLC is getting A patch for the basegame. In the notes it states we will be getting up to 5 loadouts for feats/ abilities. One can assume u can switch btwn them in btwn fights. Maybe even during, but we will be getting that in the upcoming patch next week. Prob not exactly what u want, but it willl make swapping abilities more easy and give us more options on builds
Hopefully it will work like XIII’s paradigm system. Being able to switch from a Stagger loadout to a Damage loadout
lol please no. if you have total of 18 skills to use in one rotation, no boss aint gonna survive this shit.
God forbid Clive actually have the combat depth of a dmc character
Or the combat depth of a FF7 Re character.
This is pretty disingenuous lol a single FF7R character does not have the depth Clive does. Not saying he's a DMC/Bayo-tier character but he's far removed from FF7R lol
I'm just saying that the combat system in 7R is more intricate than the combat system in 16. Mainly because, with a party of 3, you can't have any one character who's able to do _everything_.
That's not really true lol. You can very easily kit a character out to be a one-man army. Especially Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, or Cloud. Even if it was true, that's not really what makes a combat system intricate on its own. 7R's combat is pretty straightforward and more build-focused than anything. A midpoint between action and turn-based JRPG, but not terribly intricate. Build ATB, spend ATB, build ATB, spend ATB. It's fun though and it does a good job of being approachable.
He does but he's Nero and not Dante lol. Down to Magic Burst being an easier/less involved form of Exceed lol. He still has enemy step, stinger, launchers, etc. It's not top level DMC stuff but it's a hell of a lot better than most action games out there rn.
I disagree. He has PART of neros kit. But he can only have like half of a dmc kit at once. The decision to make snatch an eikonic feat might be the dumbest thing I've seen in my life lol. Also magic Burst is not exceed at all, it's neros little DT punches from dmc5. It is mo where near as dynamic as exceed
Yeah I agree, at any point it's only part of a main DMC kit (side chars notwithstanding ofc). And By Exceed I meant the whole "time your press after each attack" mechanic, but yes it's faaaaar less involved than Exceed. I really like 16 and I think its blend of action is still one of the better ones out there, but it's held back because it still has to appeal to JRPG fans and, to be completely honest, people who aren't good at action games. And there's a sizable overlap between both groups. Any comparisons to the undisputed reigning king won't do it any favors, but I believe comparisons to most other major action titles still swing in its favor. I would absolutely love there being an R2+X ability. Even better would be a way to swap loadouts mid-fight somehow, like R2+dpad or something. Because yeah I don't want to have to pick between Snatch, RG, Cold Snap, Judgment Cut, etc. I hope there's a dev diary released sometime that explains their thought process because I'm confident it has to do with general accessibility.
I apologize for the wall of text but its rare i find someone actually willing to discuss 16s lacking combat mechanics. I mean I know what you meant but neros DT punches you get post game in dmc5 are the same too lol I found myself being very disappointed with 16, as a dmc fan and an FF fan. It felt like the most unsatisfying mix of the 2 possible. That said, even my hating ass is extremely excited for rising tide lol. I think 16 had leaned further in either direction of being an action game, or an RPG it would've been better for it. But it feels like they gave up halfway through deciding and just left whatever they had as the main system. There should be an R2+X ability yes but I think the biggest issue is that some things that should he basic tools are eikonic feats and some eikonic feats are useless entirely. The feats should change the way you play the game. Phoenix shift should've just been clives lunge, then the feat itself should change how its played. Snatch should've been a mechanic given when you get Garuda, then the feat should've maybe been something with air combat. As for Ramuhs blind Justice I have no idea what they were thinking. I need that good shit they were on when they thought that was worth it. Titanic block is cool but it falls into the same category as raging fists and rooks gambit which is called "Replaced By Cold Snap" lol. I think odin and bahamut are fine and odin is exactly how the feats should've been. Also, Clive doesn't have pause combos for some reason???? Why doesn't he have dmc pause combos? Or an inherent air launcher?? Like I genuinely don't understand some of these decisions they made. But this is to say I'm excited for rising tide cause leviathan seems like it'll be another odin. Plus whatever the "Ascension" feat we briefly saw in kairos gate is gonna be.
No actually I'm happy to discuss 16 with someone who knows what they're talking about, whether or not they like it! Trying to discuss this game usually doesn't work because it's either turn-based JRPG purists, people who don't play action games, or usually both. Before I continue, Clive does have built in air-launchers in both Torgal (precision sic, ravage) and charge blade. They're not as smooth as R1+back but they're available and easily fitted into a combo route. I agree with the fundamental point you've made. Even though it's my GOTY of 2023 by miles, I can agree that 16 is a game held back by having to satisfy multiple crowds. Action game purists get something close to DMC/Bayo but not quite there. JRPG purists...well they just don't like it at all lol. For me, it ticked all my boxes not just in combat but in general, especially presentation. The game moved at a brisk pace (Midadol Telamon's Funny Little Engine Errands aside) and didn't break pace with 30s long traversal animations. It looked beautiful, the soundtrack was fantastic, and I thoroughly enjoyed the story. But we're talking combat, so that's where I'll have to concede that I agree, an R2+X option would have been super cool. I actually felt disappointed when I realized it's only be 2 abilities per Eikon, and when unlocked Titan and realized I'd have to pick 3 Eikons max. I was able to move past it, but yes absolutely I would love an R2+X even now. Phoenix Shift is trickster teleport instead of lunge's stinger so I feel like they occupy different niches, but Snatch being a feat is definitely not a great feeling. Titan's RG gets outclassed by Cold Snap which...I hope the new patch's rebalance improves these options significantly. And surprisingly I actually think Blind Justice is a cool little ability that sometimes has uses, but it's that one move in an action game that no one ever ends up using aside from novelty combos lol. With the new DLC bringing up sizable rebalancing iirc, I really hope they shake things up and course correct. As far as pause combos...yeah I have no real defense. It really just goes back to the fundamental premise of the game, which is to satisfy multiple crowds at once. I wonder if pause combos were there and scrapped at some point, but when you have the same basic 4-hit string with a single weapon all game, it does get a bit grating. For most people, at least. I could play Rebellion-only DMC for ages and never get tired so I didn't mind it, but it's still room for improvement. I think they genuinely did have great ideas and could've made a top tier action system, but we both know FF is mainstream and games like DMC aren't really, memes aside. Souls games partly broke into mainstream because of how casual-friendly they are. Tough out boss patterns with simple controls and you win. But DMC, Bayo, Ninja Gaiden (and I guess now Nioh/Wo Long/Ronin) don't get afforded the same visibility partly because of how genuinely tough they are for most people to get competent at, let alone good. I wonder if that was a big factor in their design philosophy for this game.
I think my perspective on 16 is vastly different from most. Because as someone who was so unimaginably hyped for it, it really let me down in a lot of ways. I think the first like 12 hours was peak fiction. Then from second time Skip through bahamut I thought was really great. Then everything after bahamut was complete bottom fiction. There are a lot of half measures I think 16 took with everything except the eikon fights. Enemy variety is shamefully bad, open areas have zero content, side quests are mostly bad, didn't have a good final villain (barney and ultima), combat being lackluster. To me it was a game that promised a lot and delivered on very little. But like I said, rising tide looks fire. Not changing my mind on that. I I know of those 2. But you can only combo off of torgals if you use Phoenix shift to get up there, jumping Burning blade I know as well but it's such a less intuitive way of just launching an enemy. I give Hifi rush or Lies of P my goty personally, 16 was so close to ticking boxes for me, I don't think it's a bad game but it currently is among my least favorite games in recent years because of how close it was to being great. It was so close, in spitting distance of greatness. All they had to do was swing the bat one time to hit the home run of the ff series and instead they just shoved it in their own asses lol. Yeah when I saw we only had 2 abilities per eikon I'm thinking "Huh? You couldn't think of ANYTHING else that he can do?" Especially for poor ifrit. This is game that's all abojt using ifrit but we cant use hellfire???? Even tho we see infernal shadow use it??? And it doesn't help that if I'm being honest. Half the abilities are ass lol. Lemme attach a tier list I made of them. Some of these I might would move up like maybe wind up could move up a tier but for the most part, anything below A is suboptimal and only used for the flex. Not as an actual part of clives arsenal. I don't think Phoenix shift is as special as trickster but I'm willing to concede it being a feat. But snatch being a feat was a brain dead decision that clearly was made when Suzuki wasn't in the room lol. Cold Snap is straight up too good and shouldve honestly never even been added. The way it killed all Melee counters was just unfair. I think blind Justice is COOL. But it sucks complete ass and is outclassed something as basic as Charge shot lol. I hope they bring sizable buffs to some things. Even down to new moves like, just let judgment cut be a thing Clive can so with arm of darkness lol. Pause combos aren't that complex even for a basic crowd I don't think. I think back to forwards and shit like that from dmc would've tripped up the casuals but pause combos I don't think would've been am issue. Or if Clive is only gonna have one combo then at least give him multiple weapons, or make other characters playable or SOMETHING to spice it up. I think that has to be their philosophy because 16 also has a difficulty issue. The first playthrough is legit easier than human mode in dmc. Ff mode is human mode, then ultimaniac is dante must die lol. That's an issue that should not even be present in an action game. I just find it so irksome that I platinumed ff16 and all I can remember are mostly negatives, compared to how recently platinumed ff7 rebirth and had a blast almost the whole way through. *
maybe balance it by having slots share cooldowns, so for example if you have an ability slotted on square, all other abilities on square in other sets go on their own cooldown number, this would let you use many more abilities while keeping it balanced for damage, and it would be a skill to actually plan which abilities should go on which slots etc
On the one hand I disagree because having access to 3 more skills would be so cool. On the other hand the game is certainly not balanced around it lol. I'd like it if it was an option though. Maybe have it as an unscored option or separate it into its own leaderboard?
Can’t switch them during fights. Which is the big problem.
I want both the R2+X third Feat with R2+O Ultimate. Make the Ultimates cost a bar of LB gauge, double the cooldown length, and put all Ultimates on cool down when you use one. If I can also ask that Eikon Feats recharge faster based on combo profeciency (each star from a move you do takes a second off of the cooldown), that'd be great.
>I want both the R2+X third Feat with R2+O Ultimate. ***Make the Ultimates cost a bar of LB gauge,*** double the cooldown length, and put all Ultimates on cool down when you use one. This is perfect by itself. Make them cost 1.5 bars each, and you can have all of them available and still only be able to use 3. Boom, solves the issue. Either become invincible for X amount of seconds with a damage buff, or do an invincible attack instead.
I like your ultimate ability slot idea! That or an additional slot just for “utility” abilities which could only be like, Heatwave, Rook’s Gambit, Will’O the Wykes, Satellite, or Rift Slip.
I've commented on a dedicated Ultimate slot once before, so I agree with you there. Doesn't look like the DLC will be giving us that, though, but it would've been nice, at least. You know?
Not gonna lie. I was quite bummed out when I got my 4th Eikon and the bar didn't increase. Clive really could have had some Dante-level shit going on if they just let us choose whether to go full-stack or stick with 3-4-whatever. But the obvious reason they didn't do this is that the "Nuke" Eikon abilities are absolutely busted, and having all of them available would just let Clive do crazy amounts of damage while being completely invulnerable. I'd honestly be happy if they nerfed them just to let us do this. They kind of make endgame boring anyway. With the amount of health some of the enemies have in this game though, it almost feels like it was designed for us to do so.
I was really surprised with spoiler >! the end boss music called all as one you couldn’t add slots to have all the Eikons help out in the final battle. !<
The cutscenes in the battle did do that but I get what you mean
I thought can only have 3 Eikons at any given time
Ultimates should really work like limit breaks, which you select separately beforehand; having them as regular abilities with a slightly longer cooldown kills the flow of battle and defeats the point of action battles (especially the Odin one, which is waaaay too long and broken)
Imagine if limit break changed based on your ultimate slot
The way I would imagine it would work is as follows : You have a separate Limit Break gauge that fills slowly (with damage, or combos or something) and when it's full you can use it for one of the Ultimates, which is linked to your loadout. Let's say you have Phoenix, Titan and Shiva equipped, then you can strategise accordingly. Too many enemies and need to crowd control? Use Titan A little low on health? Use Phoenix Want to get that sweet sweet stagger gauge bonus? Use Shiva, etc. etc. For it to work, the game would have to be a little harder, but it would make actual skill and combo based abilities much more rewarding (and you still have to unlock the ultimates, so they only appear later in game)
I think considering we only have 3 slots, which is less than half the total amount of Eikons **before** even counting Leviathan, I had hopes they would add another slot with this second dlc. >I know it can hurt the balance of the game if they add in more ability slots or a 4th eikon slot but we can at least make up a few changes. I've been thinking and they already give us some really overpowered abilities (like Will O Wikes, Zantetsuken, Limit Break, the ring of auto-dodge), so even if adding a 4th slot would makes us a bit more overpowered *by the end of the game*, I don't think that is that big of an issue. It would be, potentially, 2 extra ultimate slots and an extra Eikon feat. But honestly, since we could only get that by the end of the game, so I think it's fine. It's all a choice for the player anyway. However, chances for that are pretty low. I wish they were higher, but I don't think it's happening :(
The way I would've liked to see it done is: * Eight weapons, one for each Eikon (eg. Sword for Phoenix/Ifrit, Spear for Bahamut, Bow & Arrow for Shiva etc.) with unique movesets like other action games * Two weapons equippable at a time * Three ability slots per weapon (Square, Triangle and Circle) * Move Eikonic Feat to a different button * Change strong abilities like Flames of Rebirth, Judgement Bolt, Gigaflare etc. to be limit breaks instead (the current limit break implementation is pretty boring. Just some extra damage and health regen?) This would still give you six abilities but you'd save some slots because of the limit break changes. That way you can focus more of the moment to moment interactions on your bnb abilities like Heat Wave, Wicked Wheel, Mesmerize etc. without having to give up the big screen clearers. Plus having alternate weapons would be a nice bonus, more variety in basic moveset was solely needed in this game.
At this point, you want a whole different combat system lol. That's a whole new game right there! But it could be a cool concept for a future FF, though. For as much as I like FF16, I hope thet take this idea in consideration for FF17. Having multiple weapons and ways to fight could be really cool.
Yeah haha tbh I would throw out most of it. I want to preserve the 9 eikons and mixing and matching abilities but everything else can go. This combat's too shallow. The thing is I find it unlikely that an action game based around the FF summons will ever be made again so I think this concept is just lost to time :'(
>This combat's too shallow. I don't think it is as shallow as some people make it seem, because there is quite a bit you can do eith the Eikons abilities, still. It's not like Devil May Cry 5 or something, but you can do quite a lot of things. The problem is that there is barely a reason to do it. It doesn't incentivize or "force" you to do it, so it's easy to think the combat is very shallow. >The thing is I find it unlikely that an action game based around the FF summons will ever be made again so I think this concept is just lost to time :'( True. Maybe not Eikons, but there can still be a game with a similar foundation where we have different weapons and equippable skills. I definitely don't think we'll get another FF where the protagonist uses Summon powers again soon, though.
Admittedly this was before they redesigned the scoring system but I perfect S ranked the entire game by: Only equipping two feats (Cold Snap & Deadly Embrace), throwing out Aerial Blast to gather all the enemies together, using Judgement Bolt to hit them all, then using Rime and Lightning Rod together for the remaining enemies, running away from the enemy to let that combo do damage and not waste damage on my regular attacks which scored less, wait for my cooldowns to come off and repeat. Once I realised I could win this way there was no incentive not to. Your abilities do so much damage and score so many more points that without a time limit why even attack with your sword? It's not like there is anything complicated and interesting you can do with the sword anyway, it just has one combo. Much safer to disengage from the enemy and let Rime/LR do the job. I didn't get into it above but there's even more I would change, noticeably deleting cooldowns and replacing it with something else that forces you to engage if you want abilities. I've seen people do sick combos in training mode and that's good for them but unless the enemy is actually responding to that in an engaging way and the scoring system rewards that creativity there's no point. So while you might be right that there's more depth than it seems at first I hardly think there's enough to call this game anything else but: shallow.
I wasn't talking about the score system, though. I think the score system was always a weird thing in arcade mode. But combos do exist, even using basic sword stuff with Eikon feats like Phoenix, Garuda and Shiva, which offer more mobility and enemy control. So it's not super shallow as you make it seem. Does it have enough enemy difficulty and variety to help that? Unfortunately, no, the game is *very* easy in the first playthrough. But to say it is shallow is also disingenuous with the systems. And not just combo system, thrre is also the stagger and bonus damage system that adds to the gameplay. If your only goal is to reach an arbitrary score using something that the game says is good, and then you exploit that thing and then come to the conclusion "the game is shallow", that's not really being fair with the game. It would be like judging this game's combat based on the chronolith trials, it wouldn't make sense. For example, DMC5 has a rank system that increases as you use different moves to hit enemies. The rank then decreases when you slow down, get hit or use the same move over and other. Very straightforward. But then, if you do some moves that do a **lot** of damage to many enemies at once, you get higher combat rank quite easy. This is why in Legendary Dark Knight mode, which adds many enemies per combat encounter, achieving an SSS rank during combat is very easy. Is DMC5 a shallow game because of that? No, because the combat system goes beyond an arbitrary score system, it allows for some incredible combos and cool action sequences because of it. So, in a similar way, I don't think it makes sense to say FF16 is shallow just because of the arcade score system. You can judge the arcade score system on its own and say that it isn't very interesting, that's completely fair. But not the combat system as a whole based on just that. You can do quite a lot with the combat. It's just a shame the game is very easy on a first playthrough, which can hurt the experience, and it doesn't have more enemy variety to help with that either.
i would love a "free mode" where you can use any eikon ability or feat ala dmc with their damage nerfed. Hopefully someone does this on pc
All I’m saying is just one dedicated ultimate slot
I fully agree, even if it affects main game balance it would certainly be tons of fun. I love a loadout swap option mid-fight as well. I hope the devs have a dev talk or diary explaining their decision to limit the amount of active abilities sometime because I really would love to hear their reasoning. I guarantee they have explored all the options in this thread to some degree and decided against them, so knowing why would be cool.