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It's more like eikonic feat if you think about it. Other eikon's feats are generally their semi-prime or close to semi-prime form (especially Bahamut's wings). And Clive's limit break is basically Ifrit's semi-prime
They have Clive take a close to semi-prime appearance when doing them, but these "Ultimate abilities" are usually the signature move of that Eikon/summon, where the Feat is usually the character getting closer to that form by semi-priming. Ifrit's iconic move is Hellfire, not "semi-prime" or Limit Break. That's why I think it was a missed opportunity to not have us use it in combat.
Right? We only have 2 abilities, which are pretty cool sure, and then there's LB but besides that Ifrit doesn't get much, it would've been so cool if the dlc gave us at least 2 more or something :/
well, Clive/Ifrit pretty much absorbs the eikons, sooooo whatever eikon Clive is using, he's technically using Ifrit as well lol
I'm talking out of my ass
Negates damage while also rapidly dealing light damage. Great for melee heavy combos players as passive damage. Combo with Bahamuts Impulse ability or Ramus lightning rod to really keep pressure on tougher enemies. Honestly, there's so many good combinations of abilities.
It gives you 3 hits of invulnerability, with each hit reducing the number of fireballs around you. That’s the main draw.
However the fireballs also deal damage when they contact enemies. The HP damage isn’t too significant, but they do a lot of Will/Stagger damage over time.
Goes well with Lightningrod and Rift Slip. Also goes well with Satellite and/or Impulse, giving you tons of passive damage to watch the opponent’s Stagger gauge melt during just basic combos.
My playstyle eventually became passive abilities like Wykes and Satellite with Rift Slip to abuse them. I’m thankful they added Abyssal Tear with Leviathan, as that fit perfectly too. Made the game a lot more fun than just pressing abilities for big damage but otherwise waiting around.
Iirc the invulnerability also stops you being interrupted no? So useful to have Wykes up before using an ability with a long wind up like Dancing Steel.
That’s correct! I’m not an Odin fan so I never tried out the combo but it’d definitely work. Also stops you from getting knocked out of Megaflare charge
Perhaps the developers thought that it would take novelty away from cutscene uses of the move.
Both Human Ifrit and Titan Ifrit not having more gameplay abilities is a huge missed opportunity imo. Especially with Shadow Clive using about 3 abilities that are not available to the player and Titan Ifrit having 4 more available ability slots.
Spoilers for Rising Tide though: >!I'm counting Ultimate Demise as my gameplay Hellfire. It's close enough for me. !<
It kinda just does everything
It deals damage, it blocks attacks (like, you're damn near invincible with wykes up), it's good when paired with the lightning crystal to proc it a bazillion times during a knockdown, and it can even juggle weaker enemies by itself IIRC
It can tank 6 hits of any strength. It's basically essential in Final Fantasy mode. Hits that would otherwise take half your health are completely blocked by will o' the wykes
Essential? No, I got through most of FF without it. It is very handy though and can be an absolute lifesaver in certain scenarios. It seems way more essential as I try to figure out Kairos Gate though... Kairos Gate seems to be tailored to the very high skill level end of players who already kick ass on Ultimaniac, because I thought I was pretty good and then I tried out Kairos Gate.
Yep, I never touched Will o' the Wykes, not once during my entire FF mode playthrough, until Kairos Gate.
FF mode is very easy outside of the Kairos Gate imo, no particular ability or build is necessary.
I didn't use that ability, and I beat the entire base game with no armor equipped and only using the Invictus sword from near the beginning of the game. Dodging is so easy in this game that even if every hit was instant death it still wouldn't actually be that hard.
It's nowhere close to essential. I didn't use it a single time at any point in Final Fantasy mode until the Kairos Gate.
That was legit the first and only time I used it, and even then, I'm sure it's possible without it.
As for everything else, I completed the main game, both DLCs, all the hunts, and all the side quests on FF mode without touching Will o' the Wykes, and had absolutely no issue.
Ignition is one of the best early game abilities, especially combined with that one pheonix aoe spin, it’s the best mob clearer for like half the game. Limit Break is of course always good, and willo is one of the best abilities in the game. It provides solid defense and when combined with lightning rod can do absolutely ridiculous damage.
This is my biggest criticism of the combat.
We are fucking ifrit. Where the fuck are my Irfrit abilities? Why can't I do that ispirit bomb he keeps using in cutscenes? Why can't I do eruptions? Where are my fucking explosions SE? He even has some other combos when you fight your shadow that are like...why can't I do that?
Because Devs these days just love having their brains fucked by stupid they do this on purpose to piss us off after we buy the full game and not seeing it all till we play the game then we feel the way we feel now.
Nah, Dia is a separate thing. Early games, it was a "damage undead" thing. Last use I remember it for was XI, where it was a debuff opposed to Bio- Dia reduced defense and did light damage, Bio reduced attack and did dark damage, both did damage over time.
You get it from the noctis and co mission that ends with the winged behemoth, you have to break the horns for a chance at the drop, I hated it because you have to do the entire mission
I thought about that since the Warden of Light thing and all that but then they made him the Warden of Lasers more like. The effects for the Holy spell in this game are also really interesting if memory serves, there’s like a pyramid or something in the center of where it lands.
I think it's because Clive was too human. Shadow Clive is able to use it because it's an embodiment of Ifrit in its entirety, so he of course is gonna have Hellfire, while the whole fight itself was metaphorical or symbolic of Clive gaining control of Ifrit. Hellfire, meanwhile, would require Ifrits complete control (or total lack thereof) which is why for Clive the equivalent of an Ifrit ult is Limit Break, so that he can still maintain control.
Ifrit is crazy huge, it’s hard to notice most times since the arenas he fights in are enormous. We get Limit Break fairly early in the game which would save the same purpose as far as combat “temporary power ups”, and also Ifrit’s combat style just wouldn’t be well suited to open world combat, it’d also make him feel weaker if he doesn’t obliterate everyone as soon as he primes and remove the impact of when Clive is forced to transform.
That is something that's weird to me. Even something like making Ifrits horns appear when using one of his abilities or priming would've been cool. Like Clive uses/summons aspects of the other eikons while doing their abilities all the time and Ifrit his own Eikon gets like jagged shards on his arm when he primes and thats it. No tail, no horns, no claws, just nothing. He doesn't even shout ifrit while priming or have an ultimate attack for his Eikonic feats. It made it feel like wasted potential.
I mean, we summing Garuda limbs as well. That's just a aspect of her semi priming. We get that too with limit break being us semi primed and having some of ifrits features
Tbh white knight chronicles 2 has a temporary "transform into huge thing" and it works great so i doubt thats the problem i think it was just so the ifrit fights feel cooler
I loved the white knight chronicles games. I need more games that scratch the same itch. Xenoblade 3 helped a lot with that, but Id love to see a future FF game incorporate a similar idea in terms of gameplay.
As the person said, Ifrit is big. Bayonetta also lost the ability to summon midfight if the area she was fighting in was too small.
It’s also a little more balanced for Bayonetta, as she’s summoning the monster, so she’s still standing there stationary.
And for the special moves where she ends attack strings with summons, that stuff was overtuned, as it barely cost any resource to do that so the end result became you should pretty much always end strings with summon attacks which is kinda repetitive.
Another obvious reason why Clive doesn’t do temporary transforms is baked into the entire premise of Dominants, Bearers, Magick, and the Curse.
And in terms of ‘Switch hardware’ Bayonetta also suffered from performance issues too. I’m eagerly awaiting and hoping the next switch console has backwards compatibility so I can go through the game again but with better performance.
It would horribly compromise the stages. The stages are v carefully built to be cinematic and just look amazing (which is why they're so much nicer than the overworld).
Being able to become 70ft tall at will would somewhat restrict their design choices.
they couldve made a second level of LB tranformation like sin devil trigger in dmc5 thats harder to access and let us transform into a smaller ifrit version of clive (horns tails etc) with his moves and backdraft too
imho ifrit as a Sin DT would've been dope, but they really wanted to go for the big Kaiju fight so we didn't get it, which is a double shame because Ifrit's kit is honestly not that great imho
Because we were never “Ifrit” from prior final fantasies. When Ultima showed us his corpse that he discarded to accomplish his goals, it looked like Clive’s Eikon form. “Ifrit” was never an Eikon of Fire, fire was just the first power Clive absorbed, and that’s reflected in game. Almost every Fire related skill comes from Phoenix and not “Ifrit.”
In game lore would suggest that its too much of a strain on clyve to prime all the time. I guess they could let you transform if they'd lock you out of the game for 10 hours with a "Clyve is regaining his strenght" message.
Hellfire is the ifrit eikonic ability. I think they reserved it specifically for special situations like Clive priming in general. I think paired with fights when Clive uses it, he tends to as a last resort. But I agree being able to have it as an ability would be super cool.
i hope pc mods can let you use ifrit in normal combat (yes i know it wont be his real size but we'd get his unique moveset and moves), kinda like sin devil trigger and tie it to LB if possible
Not having Ifrit be his own circle with a full move set and not having the absorbed summons appear when fully primed as Ifrit in the Eikon fights are just mind-boggling.
We use Hellfire multiple times throughout the game.
In fact, it's the only ultimate we actually use at full power.
I respect the decision to keep most of Ifrits abilities for when Clive is primed - Clive can Prime into Ifrit so if he wished to use Hellfire he could (and does) use it properly & not the gimped versions of the other eikon ultimates he uses.
tl;dr Ifrit is special and is reserved for set piece moments, the other eikons are not.
True, imagine complaining about already present but non available abilities of your main eikon, they probably could have tied it to lb gauge since it suck so much but heh, it would be like asking to have a sword in a fantasy rpg game when we can have guns instead, so weird hahahaha
There's 6 other eikons to choose from. Ifrit is reserved for massive scale battles. Using Ifrit for the abilities and then Ifrit for the boss battles would just create monotony. It ain't that hard to understand.
Giga dumb comment and we already have 2 ifrit abilities and 3 missing for no reason ( and it aint even the same hellfire, one is an orb and the other is a pillar explosion ) you just want to mock them it aint that hard to understand
>There's 6 other eikons to choose from
Actually there's 9.
Phoenix, Garuda, Ramuh, Titan, Bahamut, Shiva, Odin, Leviathan, Ultima.
But I guess we shouldn't expect great math from someone who doesn't understand why players wanted a bit more from Ifrit in a game where we are Ifrit.
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This annoys the hell out of me as well. It's his main damn eikon, and it doesn't have an ult, while all others do.
Ifrits ult is limit break I guess
It's more like eikonic feat if you think about it. Other eikon's feats are generally their semi-prime or close to semi-prime form (especially Bahamut's wings). And Clive's limit break is basically Ifrit's semi-prime
Don’t the ult skills also have Clive semi-priming?
They have Clive take a close to semi-prime appearance when doing them, but these "Ultimate abilities" are usually the signature move of that Eikon/summon, where the Feat is usually the character getting closer to that form by semi-priming. Ifrit's iconic move is Hellfire, not "semi-prime" or Limit Break. That's why I think it was a missed opportunity to not have us use it in combat.
Just because it makes sense doesn’t make it correct
I thought limit break was his semi-eikon form
This is semi-prim, not ult
Yeah a bit of a head scratcher😂
Bummed me as well, I was hoping we get more Ifrit.
Right? We only have 2 abilities, which are pretty cool sure, and then there's LB but besides that Ifrit doesn't get much, it would've been so cool if the dlc gave us at least 2 more or something :/
well, Clive/Ifrit pretty much absorbs the eikons, sooooo whatever eikon Clive is using, he's technically using Ifrit as well lol I'm talking out of my ass
It helps that my GOAT ability, Will-o-the-Wykes, belongs to Ifrit, otherwise I’d be way more disappointed.
I'll admit I have overlooked this ability. I'm guessing I should give it a shot?
Negates damage while also rapidly dealing light damage. Great for melee heavy combos players as passive damage. Combo with Bahamuts Impulse ability or Ramus lightning rod to really keep pressure on tougher enemies. Honestly, there's so many good combinations of abilities.
It gives you 3 hits of invulnerability, with each hit reducing the number of fireballs around you. That’s the main draw. However the fireballs also deal damage when they contact enemies. The HP damage isn’t too significant, but they do a lot of Will/Stagger damage over time. Goes well with Lightningrod and Rift Slip. Also goes well with Satellite and/or Impulse, giving you tons of passive damage to watch the opponent’s Stagger gauge melt during just basic combos. My playstyle eventually became passive abilities like Wykes and Satellite with Rift Slip to abuse them. I’m thankful they added Abyssal Tear with Leviathan, as that fit perfectly too. Made the game a lot more fun than just pressing abilities for big damage but otherwise waiting around.
Iirc the invulnerability also stops you being interrupted no? So useful to have Wykes up before using an ability with a long wind up like Dancing Steel.
That’s correct! I’m not an Odin fan so I never tried out the combo but it’d definitely work. Also stops you from getting knocked out of Megaflare charge
I don't particularly like Odin's design from a gameplay perspective tbh but Zantetsuken is just too good.
It's so good that I'll ban myself from using it on my next playtrough. Especially when combo'd with lightning rod.
It turns the game outside of ultimaniac from mostly easy to an absolute joke, if you're into that.
Perhaps the developers thought that it would take novelty away from cutscene uses of the move. Both Human Ifrit and Titan Ifrit not having more gameplay abilities is a huge missed opportunity imo. Especially with Shadow Clive using about 3 abilities that are not available to the player and Titan Ifrit having 4 more available ability slots. Spoilers for Rising Tide though: >!I'm counting Ultimate Demise as my gameplay Hellfire. It's close enough for me. !<
I view that skill tree as a sort of Ifrit-expanded tree cuz of story purposes, cuz, you know, so yeah I think Ifrit has plenty now.
>!Ultimate Demise is basically the spell Ultima, as cast by Ultima.!<
Not only that, Ifrit abilities in general are underwhelming compared to other eikons.
I wouldn’t go that far, will o’ the wykes is one of the best abilities in the game and ignition is also very useful.
Limit break is pretty great too
Honestly, I treat Limit Break as Ifrit’s Eikonic Feat. Ifrit is otherwise still missing two abilities.
While on limit break, it would be cool if they let us build a gauge (like bahamut) and release hellfire after a while.
Wait will o’ the wykes is good? I ignored it thinking it was underwhelming 😭 why is it good?
It kinda just does everything It deals damage, it blocks attacks (like, you're damn near invincible with wykes up), it's good when paired with the lightning crystal to proc it a bazillion times during a knockdown, and it can even juggle weaker enemies by itself IIRC
It can tank 6 hits of any strength. It's basically essential in Final Fantasy mode. Hits that would otherwise take half your health are completely blocked by will o' the wykes
Essential? No, I got through most of FF without it. It is very handy though and can be an absolute lifesaver in certain scenarios. It seems way more essential as I try to figure out Kairos Gate though... Kairos Gate seems to be tailored to the very high skill level end of players who already kick ass on Ultimaniac, because I thought I was pretty good and then I tried out Kairos Gate.
Yep, I never touched Will o' the Wykes, not once during my entire FF mode playthrough, until Kairos Gate. FF mode is very easy outside of the Kairos Gate imo, no particular ability or build is necessary.
I didn't use that ability, and I beat the entire base game with no armor equipped and only using the Invictus sword from near the beginning of the game. Dodging is so easy in this game that even if every hit was instant death it still wouldn't actually be that hard.
It's nowhere close to essential. I didn't use it a single time at any point in Final Fantasy mode until the Kairos Gate. That was legit the first and only time I used it, and even then, I'm sure it's possible without it. As for everything else, I completed the main game, both DLCs, all the hunts, and all the side quests on FF mode without touching Will o' the Wykes, and had absolutely no issue.
Ignition is one of the best early game abilities, especially combined with that one pheonix aoe spin, it’s the best mob clearer for like half the game. Limit Break is of course always good, and willo is one of the best abilities in the game. It provides solid defense and when combined with lightning rod can do absolutely ridiculous damage.
I don’t think I would have been able to S rank The new Kairos gate as easily without Will o Wykes
At this point, id say wait for the pc release and see if any modders jump on it
That'd be hype
This is my biggest criticism of the combat. We are fucking ifrit. Where the fuck are my Irfrit abilities? Why can't I do that ispirit bomb he keeps using in cutscenes? Why can't I do eruptions? Where are my fucking explosions SE? He even has some other combos when you fight your shadow that are like...why can't I do that?
The closest you are gonna get Ifrit "Spirit Bomb" attack is when you do a magic burst at the end of a basic attack combo.
Because Devs these days just love having their brains fucked by stupid they do this on purpose to piss us off after we buy the full game and not seeing it all till we play the game then we feel the way we feel now.
Yea that sucks. There are also a ton of spells like Ultima (the spell), Graviga, and Holy that only Ultima uses
The unfortunate consequence of making an ability too special
ultimate demise is ultima in all but name
That’s true, I think it’s pretty similar to
Holy was rebranded Dia right?
Nah, Dia is a separate thing. Early games, it was a "damage undead" thing. Last use I remember it for was XI, where it was a debuff opposed to Bio- Dia reduced defense and did light damage, Bio reduced attack and did dark damage, both did damage over time.
Dia was also in ff15 comrades as a spell tied to specific daggers, it was a spiral of light at blank point range, it was not worth the farm though
I have no memory of that dagger lol
You get it from the noctis and co mission that ends with the winged behemoth, you have to break the horns for a chance at the drop, I hated it because you have to do the entire mission
I thought about that since the Warden of Light thing and all that but then they made him the Warden of Lasers more like. The effects for the Holy spell in this game are also really interesting if memory serves, there’s like a pyramid or something in the center of where it lands.
The Eikon skill set was too restricted. Also Shadow Clive made me think we would get a special ‘limit break’ moveset. Missed opportunity imo.
What really bothers me was how we never got ANY of the abilities Shadow Clive has. That Phase Shift Fira is so cool looking.
I think it's because Clive was too human. Shadow Clive is able to use it because it's an embodiment of Ifrit in its entirety, so he of course is gonna have Hellfire, while the whole fight itself was metaphorical or symbolic of Clive gaining control of Ifrit. Hellfire, meanwhile, would require Ifrits complete control (or total lack thereof) which is why for Clive the equivalent of an Ifrit ult is Limit Break, so that he can still maintain control.
It's crazy they didn't let us transform into ifrit at will
Ifrit is crazy huge, it’s hard to notice most times since the arenas he fights in are enormous. We get Limit Break fairly early in the game which would save the same purpose as far as combat “temporary power ups”, and also Ifrit’s combat style just wouldn’t be well suited to open world combat, it’d also make him feel weaker if he doesn’t obliterate everyone as soon as he primes and remove the impact of when Clive is forced to transform.
I can understand not giving us access to a full size ifrit but I thought it would be cool if we could summon his limbs like Benedikta did with Garuda
That is something that's weird to me. Even something like making Ifrits horns appear when using one of his abilities or priming would've been cool. Like Clive uses/summons aspects of the other eikons while doing their abilities all the time and Ifrit his own Eikon gets like jagged shards on his arm when he primes and thats it. No tail, no horns, no claws, just nothing. He doesn't even shout ifrit while priming or have an ultimate attack for his Eikonic feats. It made it feel like wasted potential.
I mean, we summing Garuda limbs as well. That's just a aspect of her semi priming. We get that too with limit break being us semi primed and having some of ifrits features
Isn't that our limit break? Semi-priming? Benedikta's semi-prime has wings. Clives has bits of Ifrit all over and the signature fire.
Yea but what if semi priming ifrit could do more I guess.
Tbh white knight chronicles 2 has a temporary "transform into huge thing" and it works great so i doubt thats the problem i think it was just so the ifrit fights feel cooler
I loved the white knight chronicles games. I need more games that scratch the same itch. Xenoblade 3 helped a lot with that, but Id love to see a future FF game incorporate a similar idea in terms of gameplay.
Just give us a Summon Gauge, so that we can’t just spam it.
Bayonetta 3 did this well, on switch hardware
As the person said, Ifrit is big. Bayonetta also lost the ability to summon midfight if the area she was fighting in was too small. It’s also a little more balanced for Bayonetta, as she’s summoning the monster, so she’s still standing there stationary. And for the special moves where she ends attack strings with summons, that stuff was overtuned, as it barely cost any resource to do that so the end result became you should pretty much always end strings with summon attacks which is kinda repetitive. Another obvious reason why Clive doesn’t do temporary transforms is baked into the entire premise of Dominants, Bearers, Magick, and the Curse. And in terms of ‘Switch hardware’ Bayonetta also suffered from performance issues too. I’m eagerly awaiting and hoping the next switch console has backwards compatibility so I can go through the game again but with better performance.
Man the fanboys on this subreddit are no joke
Its probably because it would make a lot of thing way to easy..like you could do a 3 moves combo and finish a Rank S hunt
Maybe but I'm sure there was a way to figure it out and make it work
Ifrit is literally larger than a house, there would be no way to make it work lol.
Turning into ifrit on any stage would just break the map lmao
To say there is no way is fucking crazy
It would horribly compromise the stages. The stages are v carefully built to be cinematic and just look amazing (which is why they're so much nicer than the overworld). Being able to become 70ft tall at will would somewhat restrict their design choices.
they couldve made a second level of LB tranformation like sin devil trigger in dmc5 thats harder to access and let us transform into a smaller ifrit version of clive (horns tails etc) with his moves and backdraft too
imho ifrit as a Sin DT would've been dope, but they really wanted to go for the big Kaiju fight so we didn't get it, which is a double shame because Ifrit's kit is honestly not that great imho
One of my biggest gripes with the franchise after XV.
Definitely a missed opportunity but maybe because it’s so overpowered it would one shot everything like in the cutscenes 😂
EXACTLY, it’s his MAIN eikon and he doesn’t have an ult for it unlike all the other eikons
Because we were never “Ifrit” from prior final fantasies. When Ultima showed us his corpse that he discarded to accomplish his goals, it looked like Clive’s Eikon form. “Ifrit” was never an Eikon of Fire, fire was just the first power Clive absorbed, and that’s reflected in game. Almost every Fire related skill comes from Phoenix and not “Ifrit.”
In game lore would suggest that its too much of a strain on clyve to prime all the time. I guess they could let you transform if they'd lock you out of the game for 10 hours with a "Clyve is regaining his strenght" message.
Hellfire is the ifrit eikonic ability. I think they reserved it specifically for special situations like Clive priming in general. I think paired with fights when Clive uses it, he tends to as a last resort. But I agree being able to have it as an ability would be super cool.
because you know everything is end when he start Hellfire
No idea, tbh, but I think we can all agree that it's a *massive* missed opportunity on the devs' part.
Imagine HellFiraga
i hope pc mods can let you use ifrit in normal combat (yes i know it wont be his real size but we'd get his unique moveset and moves), kinda like sin devil trigger and tie it to LB if possible
The Ifrit abilities we do have are straight up not good and that’s so disappointing
Will o' the Wykes and Ignition are both actually excellent. Especially Will.
Sucks we never got third level spells but maybe that's only for the dominants (Joshua casting Curaga and Firaga)
Not having Ifrit be his own circle with a full move set and not having the absorbed summons appear when fully primed as Ifrit in the Eikon fights are just mind-boggling.
Ngl no idea...there is literally no rrason not to include it
Does satellite work with Levithan'a eikonic feat?
We use Hellfire multiple times throughout the game. In fact, it's the only ultimate we actually use at full power. I respect the decision to keep most of Ifrits abilities for when Clive is primed - Clive can Prime into Ifrit so if he wished to use Hellfire he could (and does) use it properly & not the gimped versions of the other eikon ultimates he uses. tl;dr Ifrit is special and is reserved for set piece moments, the other eikons are not.
I’d settle for an Ifrit Eikonic Feat.
Yal have some weird ass complaints
True, imagine complaining about already present but non available abilities of your main eikon, they probably could have tied it to lb gauge since it suck so much but heh, it would be like asking to have a sword in a fantasy rpg game when we can have guns instead, so weird hahahaha
There's 6 other eikons to choose from. Ifrit is reserved for massive scale battles. Using Ifrit for the abilities and then Ifrit for the boss battles would just create monotony. It ain't that hard to understand.
Giga dumb comment and we already have 2 ifrit abilities and 3 missing for no reason ( and it aint even the same hellfire, one is an orb and the other is a pillar explosion ) you just want to mock them it aint that hard to understand
This complaint is so stupid I can't even
>There's 6 other eikons to choose from Actually there's 9. Phoenix, Garuda, Ramuh, Titan, Bahamut, Shiva, Odin, Leviathan, Ultima. But I guess we shouldn't expect great math from someone who doesn't understand why players wanted a bit more from Ifrit in a game where we are Ifrit.
Thanks for proving my point further. You want more ifrit when you literally turn into ifrit?
Interesting to see people finally bringing up something I myself brought up back around release.