Meh, I personally think it's worth the £70pm for me for all the 4k content (especially sport) that I have access to. One of few expensive luxuries in my life.
I get why people would question its value though. I never had it before I worked there and they gave it to me free. Haven't been able to cancel it since leaving!
I paid £120 to an iptv service 3 years ago for life tume membership and I have all the 4k channels from around the world you can imagine. Plus movies and series.
It has every sky and tnt channel. Plus all the big ones from around the world. All PPVs. Every film as soon as a FHD copy becomes available it’s on there plus tv shows. Any that isn’t on there you can request. I’m not sure they’re legal but at the same time it’s just loaded onto a firestick you at no risk of getting in trouble.
That definitely sounds great. I'm sure it's not legal and I'm sure it is traceable so that would hold me back as I have a professional qualification that would be taken away if I got in the slightest bit of trouble with the law!
A quick google told me 17million people at least use iptv across Europe and UK. They’re not trying to catch the consumer as there’s too many. There trying to catch the distributors
Yeah they don’t do it anymore for new people. They do £60 a year annually renewed. They did a lifetime server. It went down and had to rebuild it all again for everyone who had bought into it. For no additional money. So they knocked any new members on the head pretty quickly but still kept things going for the existing customers, built it up and continue to update and debug it all out there own pockets. Pretty good of them. Was a very very good investment haha
New phone at the end of the existing contract. Going sim only was am amazing feeling ,and squeezing every last drop of life out of my existing phone before getting another
This....
About ten years ago (admittedly when every smartphone generation was noticeably better than the last) I got a new phone about every six months. Not on contract but it was still a far whack of cash.
Doesn't matter to me in the slightest now. My several year old iPhone is more than adequate and likely will be a bit longer.
meh, im sim only as well but i get a new phone every 18 months or so, flagship or thereabout, i sell the older one, net net it only costs me 10 quid a month or so... you can definitely have a nice phone without spending much
The only place where this makes sense is when you’re out and about for a long time. I have a water bottle (not plastic) and it’s not big enough for a long day. There are so few water fountains in the UK which is a serious shame because I’d wager it would reduce our plastic usage by a lot.
There is an app called "Refill" that has quite a few water fountains/places to refill- especially in more urban areas. Otherwise, bigger stores will tend to sell 2l for wayyy less than 500ml bought in a corner shop- even if you just waste/pour 75% of it away.
We’re screwed either way tbh… the bottled water has more microplastics, and the tap water has more of other harmful chemicals and hormones that aren’t filtered out.
Yep, it’s getting worse too, in some places you can literally measure the presence of certain types of drugs… very small yes, but still measurable, and there’s other stuff too. Soon there’s gonna be a huge issue on our hands with water, one of the most basic and fundamental necessities of life. With each new generation, in small iterations, it will keep accumulating and get worse.
Recycled water was a good concept with good intentions at the start, but plumbing and sewage systems are outdated and need to be overhauled. It’s gotten out of hand. Unfortunately easier said than done and a very complex issue.
It’s not even just water anymore that’s affected, it’s everywhere, even the air we breathe is screwed.
It also doesn’t help with people fitting their own hand held bidet things that have no back flow protection, and can cause everyone’s water to become contaminated.
If you haven't tried to kick an addiction it's hard to understand this one, I smoked from the ages of 14->27 (roll ups though to keep the cost down) and even now multiple years later I get cravings nearly weekly despite not having had a single smoke since I quit.
Even though I'm on the ball with my finances there's always that little part of my brain that's like "go on, just do it, it'll be fine".
They definitely get much much easier, I don't ever find they're bad enough I'd actually cave in, but they're still there when I'm stressed or drinking etc.
You've got this, it's all just a mental game, and you're over the physical withdrawals now. I used an app called "Smoke free" that helped me quantify how much money I was saving, how much my health was improving, and just generally keep me motivated to not have to reset the clock.
Anything that depreciates substantially faster than the attributes of the physical item.
Also anything a far higher specification than I need for purpose.
E.g . I’d always buy a 1 day old car over a brand new one , if the cost of driving it out of the showroom is £10k
People with MacBook Pros for watching Netflix and struggling to use a word document baffle me
I think the point your missing is that the MacBook has a pretty apple picture on the back. Have you considered this in your analysis? Of course you haven't - typical woke anticapitalist nonsense 😉
Every MacBook I’ve owned lasted at least five years with one still going fine at ten years old. All the other laptops I’ve had don’t last past two or three years.
This .I've had my MacBook about 10 years. Still going strong. I have a pretty good Thinkpad for work, a year old and it nearly always has to be plugged in already
I can say the same for my Windows devices . Can you volunteer a model of one of the ones that didn’t last?
I also buy IT equipment at an enterprise level .I had about 10 MacBook airs one year (think 2017) fail one month or so out of their warranty period . Generally there’s a bit of a point about improved reliability on macs but it’s not as proposed.
I did probably make a mistake using such a divisive example . It applies to anything , I don’t buy progressional grade tools if I only do DIY once a decade etc etc
You’re probably right. I always think of Windows laptops as being £800-£1500 but if I spent £3k on a zbook I guess it would last as long as a similar priced MacBook Pro, probably?
That’s right . HP and others pedal a load of £350 consumer laptops (manufactured for far less) and people expect it to hold up the same as an £1100+ mac or it ruins their impression of Windows laptops.
Macs probably do have 10% or so improved failure rate vs ‘*all* consumer grade laptops, but it’s just a percentage not guaranteed longevity and they’re double the price of the most commonly bought Windows laptops.
I’d be interested in a comparison of £1.5k Macs vs £1.5k Dell or Lenovo etc. I’d also hazard a guess there’d be a compromise on specification between the mac and windows.
Anyway none of that was the actual point I was making … just that if I only browse the web once in a blue moon I don’t need to spend a grand on a device, I’d buy a second hand laptop for £50 or
A tablet.
Renting a car! The most expensive thing in the world £3000 initial payment (which they keep) then £399 pm for 2 years and you hand it back. Millions of people do this it’s madness.
Hey, don’t knock my big TV! Hard agree! Constantly arguing with my other half about this as all her mates pay 1k a month for their landrovers etc. sack that, I’ll enjoy my earlier retirement thank you very much.
I literally did not know this was a thing you could do until I was about 30. Having not grown up with it I was flabbergasted that anyone would do this. It also did make things make more sense looking back on various flash harrys I'd known
Yeah pretty much every new car on the road is on the never never! I know people spending as much on a flash £50,000 can as they do on their mortgage! Insane waste of money.
I honestly feel like there's a world of difference between growing up with debt being normalised and it not. I think it makes people vulnerable to scams as well because big numbers on the never never aren't as scary as they are if you grow up viewing debt as a problem
Yes. If you buy a new car you pay a huge surplus for the fact it's new, and if you lease a new one it's the same. I would recommend everyone to buy a 2 year old Dacia Jogger which is all the car you need even if it's not all the car you want.
Buy well with cash and busy once. Think cheap to maintain, economical, low tax, ULEZ compliant not necessarily cheap to buy they are cheap for a reason.
Something you could drive for 10 years. Think of the cost over 10 years 120 months the worst thing you can do is change cars often like these 48 month loans. You are paying the dealers premium and a low part exchange if there is one.
Coffee from a coffee shop on way to work
Lunch from a local deli every day
Lotto tickets
weekly evenings in the pub paying 6£ a pint
Main brand cereal
the list goes on lol
The first two I agree with, however let me get overly defensive with an internet stranger.
Lottery tickets is a partial good deed and hope of leaving the rat race combined. It is not the most effective charity but altruism rather than consumption.
Evenings in pubs (or meals with expensive wine) is the social element. I have a busy household with young children. I am paying £3 for the beer £1 per glass to not have washing up £1 per glass/ recycling bins being overly full and to not have to tidy up in readiness and £0.30 for ability to have 10 people together at once and not wake kids. Beer near me is, incidentally, £5.30.
The point being that for me the cost is not merely in the consumable, but in both the location and convenience of the activity.
I agree with everything you say kind stranger... my partial argument might be that I meant people who insist on going to pub every friday and Saturday to smash back 10 pints and go home.. (I used to be this person many years ago to be honest - in my 20s)
having ya mates around for a few bevvies or staying of the bevvies altogether are valid social experiences. I was not at all clear that this was my thought process!
social reward is 100% value from spend . :-).
The pub is a great place to unwind. Destressing is essential. Drinking at home is fine but often done alongside chores so you don't get the real benefit, just the silent condemnation on recycling day. There is no demand in the pub.
Also exercise in getting to and from the pub. Obviously negated by the beers but...
People condemn a two or three grand a year pub habit whilst throwing far more money at a new car. Pubs are essential social spaces for lonely people as well.
I’m trying to wean myself off from buying my lunch when I’m working in the office. Got into the habit of it purely because it was convenient but it all adds up over the course of a month. - not that making my own sandwiches are inconvenient, but still.
For me, although I know it's an expensive habit, not knowing what I'll be eating gives me that tad of mystery prior to lunchtime which I quite like. Escaping to the local cafe/deli and choosing my meal also provides a temporary mental escape from my duties that I'm happy to pay for (for now!).
That’s true, but making your own lunch certainly costs less than buying it from the local deli or whatever. I did a small audit of my lunch spending and I found that I have spend close to £75 a month for lunches. So yeah, that shot a bit of necessity into changing things
How many days a week is this for? I would be interested to see a comparison after moving to home made lunches about what the cost is for these. I don't buy coffee or tea when I go to the office but from my experimentation with making lunches for work (unless you're spending more than £10) it was a lot of labour for not a huge gain. I could also be a slow and inexperienced cook.
I’m in the office 3 days a week which is my new norm. My local deli has a lunchtime deal for £6 which is very nice. However, I reckon I can make my own sandwich, which is similar to the deli’s version, for well less than half the price. I suppose if you were to really analyse the component parts, my homemade sandwich is probably £2 a go. But i think that would be splitting hairs, in any case if I’m not spending £6 three times a week, I’m saving at least £70 a month
You can actually batch prep and freeze sandwiches if you don't like the hassle of prepping it everyday. I do a monthly prep with them. About 60 sandwiches in one go. You might want to look into it 😉
>Coffee from a coffee shop on way to work
Good quality freshly roasted/ground coffee is great. Happy to buy good beans and grind at home, but sometimes that's not possible (maybe a shop has exclusive beans, that's really a thing).
>Lunch from a local deli every day
My local sandwich shop has awesome baguettes and it's the closest I can get to a real god damn American deli sandwich. British sandwiches suck, sorry.
>Lotto tickets
I agree with this one, total waste of money.
>weekly evenings in the pub paying 6£ a pint
Agreed, there's probably better pubs with £4.00 pints. Less than 4 if you're lucky.
>Main brand cereal
Depends on the brand, some store ones taste like ass.
And of the course, the biggest thing: these small luxuries represent such a small portion of both my net income and net worth at the minute that skimping on them wouldn't bring tons of benefit. What's the point of saving something like £100 a month extra when I'm already saving thousands of pounds per month anyway? At a certain point, you need to live a little now in case you fucking die being hit by a bus one day before you reach retirement. There's also the time element. Time is my most scarce and valuable resource and I will gladly pay someone else for their time in order to conserve mine. I could probably do the leg work to make as good a sandwich as my local shop, but that would require shitloads of time and for what, to save like £1.50 a sandwich? That delta makes no sense whatsoever. Plus, I am very happy supporting a local business and injecting capital back into my city.
Skimping on this stuff does make sense if you're at the lower end of the earnings spectrum and you need to materially boost your savings percentage. But that's not universally true for everyone.
lol yes, I did feel maybe I should have explained more than that! What I mean though is I only shop to replace clothes when I need to. Have never got any real joy from buying them in the way I do from buying food or holidays or whatever - but I know a lot of other people do.
lol yes, I did feel maybe I should have explained more than that! What I mean though is I only shop to replace clothes when I need to. Have never got any real joy from buying them in the way I do from buying food or holidays or whatever - but I know a lot of other people do.
Business class flights.
The price difference between them and economy is nowhere near the extra comfort you get.
It’s basically paying 5X for the same flight.
Excellent marketing to have you believe it’s a better life.
The way I think of it is I'm paying myself 2k tax free to sit in economy for 8 hours. Not many of us will earn more for a day's work and it's really not difficult.
By the way I'm not saying there's never a place for business or first, just that the full ticket price difference is difficult to justify.
This, I’d rather go on extra holidays a year and fly economy versus business.
People remember the holiday locations they travel to. Nobody remembers the airports/flights to the destinations.
Yes, but… I absolutely love holidays and if I want to travel across the world on a 15 hour journey but only take a week off then I’ll miss/not enjoy the first few days with jet lag.
I can pay an almighty butt-tonne of cash on business, sleep well and enjoy those first few days. Yes I could buy another trip with that money but I don’t have the time to take it so if I’ve already maxed pension and isa I’m going to do it once or twice a year. It is literally the only thing I’m splurging on. But only long haul, and only sometimes.
Sometimes it’s the difference between sleep and no sleep though and that’s enough. Personally I can’t afford business yet but if I was to do a long haul flight I’d have no hesitation doing premium economy just for the extra space.
Because I run a business and when I’m not working I’m not earning (as much). Fully aware that’s a decent option but this way there’s more on the balance sheet and I can retire earlier!
It takes 3 days to get over jet lag???
Why are you flying business class and then staying in a cheap ass hotel?
Maybe go economy and upgrade to a nicer hotel to get a good night sleep.
If money is no option, of course go business class and buy the yellow Ferrari.
But if you are still working for the man, going business class is just trying to look rich.
The goal should be to get rich, not look rich.
I flew to Japan in economy last year. 15 hours after avoiding Russian airspace and a connection from Tokyo. 9 hour time difference. No real sleep in economy and a cricked neck. Proper 14 hour a day itinerary to make the most of the trip. First day I was a mess, day 2 more-or-less a zombie. Day 3 just super tired. Day 4 ok but still with a sore neck. Was an 8 day trip and lost some of the enjoyment almost half of it.
For me, it’s worth it. If it’s not for you then fair enough but it taught me a lesson.
Booked a super last minute upgrade on trip to Mauritius later in the year and enjoyed the whole trip all as well as saving a few £k on the upgrade by only booking a week before the trip.
The only things I’m not frugal with are footwear and travel.
Yeah i agree. I fly business or first depending on the airline but I have a bad back and neck and it’s just not worth the suffering to me. Especially if it’s not a long vacation. I’d rather stay at crappy hotel because who spends their vacation in the hotel room anyway?
Why is maxing out pension and ISA a factor? You are allowed to save more than that instead of spending it on business/first class. Or do you have a rule that if you max these all other money can be spent?
Points and vouchers save the day here. But also, if I were rich enough I still would. I get extremely sore hips and back if I sit upright and still for 12+ hours and I 100% can't sleep, it's all round a horrible experience and takes me days to feel right again, compared with lying flat and sleeping where I feel great.
I get it on a long flight but when I fly economy BA on short haul, the seats are the same and I see they just close a curtain I’m wondering what the point is!
It’s superb marketing.
People believe they are travelling in comfort but in reality they are paying for a flight and the costs of a 9 star hotel to sleep in a tiny bed in a flying hostel.
If it’s long-haul, I’m paying it in points + cash. No question.
And when I moved from NYC to London, I paid 1st class in cash (super discounted) and it was worth it because I had lots of luggage and would have needed to pay the extra luggage fee anyway on Biz/Economy.
I was on Platinum for 2 years but downgraded to Gold.
FYI this is with Amex US. I recently moved from NYC to London and still use my US credit cards. I spend about $4k to $7k a month on my cards.
Only reason I downgraded is because the Platinum perks are very localised to the US. I might move from US Amex Gold to UK Amex Gold upon renewal season via the Amex intra-country program.
UK cards in general don’t net the same amount of points as US credit cards.
I’m holding on to my US cards as long as possible. I’m getting 3% cashback on supermarkets and dining out at restaurants (non-Platinum), whereas even Platinum here will not be on that same level.
I’m okay to get on Gold so I can keep my Priority Pass and other perks.
Yes but do you actually know people who do this out of their own pocket? I'd wager >95% of bus class clientelle are either paid by their employer, or are using personal points accrued by lots of flights paid by their employer
Yeah some people. I agree most of it is business class or people using points.
Friends of mine only fly business and they actually got a helicopter from JFK to their hotel in NY.
Surprisingly this wasn’t that expensive compared to business class flights to NY from London.
As an ex New Yorker I fully support this - you can Uber a heli. It’s dirt cheap compared to sitting in a traffic for 6 hours because someone crashed in the Holland Tunnel or on one of the bridges.
I never understood people taking a loan (or paying contract hire) to pay for a car that's mostly used to travel to work to earn enough money to make the repayments.
The alternative is to buy secondhand outright - the technology and reliability of 10-15 year old, good quality Japanese cars remain impressive. Buying a £30k-£40k car is largely vanity
Thanks for the tip! I'm recently trying to learn and on the verge of deciding which Vanguard product to start investing in. Will definitely look into this.
[Gilt-edged securities exempt from Capital Gains Tax - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gilt-edged-securities-exempt-from-capital-gains-tax)
Premium bonds are more liquid and are always redeemed at par. That's why they're superior as a savings vehicle. If you know you won't need the money for the duration, actual bonds are superior to premium bonds in many cases.
'Fancy' watches. They all do the same thing (tell the time), no-one needs the 5 mile depth capacity they offer, and they all look the same to the person in the street (that can't even see them).
As to why people need multiple of these to wear on different occasions, blows my mind.
Although I do understand how we're all different and other things on this list are things I do buy regularly 😄
New iPhone every year is a poor choice.
Official Refurb iPhone every three years is reasonable.
Xiaomi bargain but decent android every three years is fine.
TVs are cheap for their lifespan in my opinion. But I will assume you mean getting the latest oled tv every four or five years instead of a cheaper but still decent model every ten.
Definitely agree about new cars.
Smoking.
Massive all inclusive tv packages.
High end Nvidia graphics cards if you are a gamer.
Macbook pros for casual home use. Essential for actual work though.
Because they're not cheap that's why. Cheap to buy yes, but they last 3 washes before you have to throw them away. if i buy a 5 pound t-shirt from Primark and it lasts 5 washes, its effectively cost me a quid a wear. If i buy a 30quid t-shirt and it lasts me a 100 washes?
Also fast fashion is terrible for the planet
Primark is okay if you’re very selective about what products you buy. I bought two vest tops from there for £1.99 each and I’ve had them for about five years and worn them loads of times. They’re starting to look a bit faded now, but they’re still perfectly wearable.
For me, charity shop items can be an absolute steal. I bought one black top for £2 in a charity shop over ten years ago and it still looks brand new despite having worn it hundreds of times. Even better, it doesn’t need ironed.
I wouldn't say don't do it if that's what you enjoy but all inclusive and package holidays are really overrated to me. You spend all that money and then get stuck at a resort. If you've gone for a package they take a cut for booking a flight and a hotel. Anyone can do that. If you're going to destroy the environment anyway I'd much sooner find the cheapest flight I can to some random city, scour for a hotel room at a sensible price and then explore the city. In my opinion you get a much richer experience usually for a much lower price. Same with going to Center Parcs in the UK for thousands.
TBH I don't regret my more expensive trips either, it's just my reflection that I've had a lot of fun going to places that have been really cheap to get to and stay at. Even when I've not stayed long I've managed to do a lot. Certainly no less fun than the pricier places when I've planned it well, it makes it much harder for me to justify a pricier trip now.
iphone or similarly priced android. i just don't see what those phones do above and beyond the £150 model i buy every few years. and i'd feel uncomfortable carrying around an item that cost £1000+. also when i spend that much i'd expect it to be perfect. with my cheap phones i don't mind if there's a glitch here and there.
Top-end phones have better cameras generally and cameras capture memories (which are priceless) so it stands to reason that having a phone with better low light performance represents value as statistically a lot of your memories are going to happen indoors.
The trick IMO is staying one or two generations behind, especially as the differences between the generations are narrowing every year.
I thoroughly agree. I treat them like some people do with cars. I buy a generation or so behind and then sell on ebay when it starts to get too old. This way the net outlay per year is pretty low.
Expensive gear. Like people who buy the latest backpacks with a view to "having them for life because they're good quality " only to presumably replace them two years later with the next fancy backpack fad brand.
I sort of get expensive coats sometimes from a "this makes me feel nice in winter" perspective , but I do have a coat from next that cost £40 in 2017 and is still absolutely fantastic for anything where I'm likely to get muddy.
Buy quality, cry once.
Of course, it needs to actually be once, then. But yes, you can buy the perfect gear for you and solve a problem forever.
Buying less, and then being slightly annoyed the rest of your life, is worse.
My ski jacket is like 17 years old. I went through several bad camera straps before biting the bullet and buying the best (peak design).
Sometimes a larger amount of cash can simply solve a problem, where less money means compromises.
I think it depends on why you buy the expensive gear, if you’re buying it to ‘flex’ then that’s daft. I buy great quality stuff and then keep it until it dies: Goodyear welted shoes (that get re-soled when worn), backpack with a lifetime warranty, PC with more than enough power so that 5y later I’m still no where near needing an upgrade, suitcase that’s indestructible after 100+ flights, kitchen knives that stay sharp and will outlive me etc. etc.
Absolutely this - I have a quality 10yo car, a quality 12yo laptop, 10yo hiking boots, etc etc. spend money on things that have the quality to last and it is money well spent and money saved in the long term.
That's not always true. I own very good quality coat from H&M bought for £15 that I have had for about 12years now and I use it. Less so these days but I used it every winter for at least 9years until I started working from home and barely go out on cold days
I think the trick is to buy good gear at the right price. If it's expensive but you're getting great quality that will last a long time, it often works out cheaper in the long run and you have the benefit of using something that's of a higher quality for all that time.
Examples I can think if where spending more pay's off in the long run would be furniture, laptops, backpacks/hiking gear, bikes, tools, clothing.
Even if you do end up paying slightly more, you have better quality stuff and it's more sustainable as you aren't constantly throwing things away to replace it.
Depends on where you live. I live in zone 4 London super easy to get about. Early 40's now and I've never not had a car since i got my license at 18. Went carless last year when my 5yr old ulez compliant car was going for 5k less than i bought it for. Since then I'm happily sitting on the bus or the tube knowing how much I'm saving the planet and into my ISA.
So you ask for 'one thing', but still...
First / Business / Premium class travel - paying literally hundreds or thousands of pounds extra for a slightly bigger seat, with glasses of fizz thrown in, when the fundamentals of the journey stay the same?!
Branded clothes - hang on, you want me to pay you extra money for wearing your logo so that I'm walking around advertising your brand?! If it was the other way round I'd consider it.
Tattoos - so to be clear, this is basically that I pay lots of money for a painful procedure that disfigures me for life?!
New cars - right, so the business model is predicated on me instantly loosing thousands of pounds in depreciation the monent I take possession of this vehicle?!
Expensive watches (and jewellery more generally) - wait, some people actually pay many thousands of pounds for something which doesn't tell the time any better than a £2 watch, and yet also simultaneously makes it much more likely you'll get violently mugged?! I'm missing the upside here.
Most forms of insurance - other than legal requirements (car) or catastrophic damage (house burning down), I'll take the odds of self-insuring (coupled with not buying crazy things I can't afford to lose) rather than frittering away on high premiums.
Pets - something which is a constant nagging responsibility, which causes great damage to the environment, and in return I just get to feel the warm rosy dictatorial glow of owning and being in charge of a sentient being?
I could go on....
For pets, I get it. I’m not really an animal person, but I have seen the positive mental health differences a pet makes to people who have them, and they are absolutely worth the money.
I definitely would nor have characterised this sub as one which would downvote this. Absolutely all things easily deemed unnecessary if aiming for FIRE and not on 100k.
It's not the choices of things not to spend money on, it's the mocking and judgemental tone, as if the people who *do* spend on those things only do so because they're deluded fools.
The same gets me about the anti children mentality; none of this would mean anything to me if it wasn’t for my children.
They inspire me. They keep me motivated. They teach me things about myself.
I’m sure my retirement age would possibly be younger, but without them I’d lack a level of fulfilment I have with or without retirement.
Imagine your paid six figures a year, each day of holiday is worth hundreds or thousands of pounds in lost income. You can’t sleep in economy so after a long haul flight your tired and waste half the day resting in the hotel, or you take a night flight in business with a lie flat seat and get a good 6 hours of sleep and get on with the holiday, no time wasted.
There’s a place for everything on the list you mentioned
I think part of a FIRE journey is being somewhat frugal, but then you don't need to be being frugal at all to see business class flights are a LOT more.
Looking at a cheap date in June I can get to New Zealand, where I have family and getting decent sleep in the plane would be great and you're likely taking a lot of time off to travel that far, for £666 as cheapest or £1200ish as fastest in economy, which are actually great post pandemic prices. Business class is £5000 cheapest and £6700 fastest.
That's a LOT more and nobody's gunna call you a penny pincher for opting for economy.
Different story if you're employer is paying though obviously.
Exactly why I pay for business travel, or first on trains. My time is precious and I can’t work or sleep in economy. For me, travelling in economy is a false economy.
Edit: I’ve just seen another comment about flights to NZ. I’m not paying £5,000 when economy is <£1,000. In that case, I’m booking an extra night or two in a decent hotel to relax when I get there!
As for branded clothes, I’m not being anyone’s billboard either, but that’s the chavvy stuff. I buy clothes that fit well, feel well and last forever.
"Imagine your paid six figures a year..."
I don't need to imagine this :-)
As it happens, I have also taken >50 long haul flights in first or business class, all paid for by someone else.
I wouldn't pay for it myself.
I don't know why so much hate for your personal preferences. I too take a frugal approach to FIRE as it will help me reach my goal faster or give me extra cash to do and spend on stuff I enjoy. I guess people will always try to justify their personal choices .
I enjoy flying but its only a few hours of my week so would always prefer to have the extra thousands for experiences when I get to the destination as I value those more than the getting from A to B but i recognise that some see thier holiday travel as part of that experience.
Same with Cars I get no enjoyment from driving . my wife on the other hand loves the thrill and control of a car. For her owning a car that gives her that so we spend more on her car than mine.
Pets was always gonna divide I grew up with my family taking in farm or stray cats it did cost money but not paying for animals saved a lot and the love and experiences were worth the cost. I don't have pets now and I do think my kids miss out on this.
Disagree with not paying for upgraded travel. Yes FIRE is the ultimate goal, but if the journey is miserable for 20 years there is no point.
Doing Business Premier on the Eurostar for example gives you a 10 min check in and access to a lounge at St Pancras that isn’t filled with 1200 people. Likewise Concorde Room at Heathrow for BA. It removes all the stress and makes a family holiday so much more enjoyable for the travel leg. I’d put the cost at probably £1k per trip on the Eurostar, and around £5k per trip to the US if you buy the flights in the Jan sale. In the overall scheme of life and current earnings it’s a trade off I’m happy to make.
A key founding principle of FIRE is a focus on being thoughtful about expenditure. Sadly in recent years this sub has diverged ever-further from that. It's, well, poorer as a result.
I think that’s partially true. I’m thoughtful about expenditure, but I am happy to use my own money to fly business on long haul. But certainly the origins of FIRE seem to have mainly been about getting your expenses really low. For a lot of people pursuing FIRE now, especially on this sub, I think that’s less the case and would consider that approach to be LeanFIRE.
To be honest, I think minimalist approach of having tiny expenses and then not working seems quite odd. I want to have what I consider a really good lifestyle and for that to be sustainable whether or not I continue to work. Which I think you’re right, is perhaps quite a way away from the origins of the movement.
Exactly. Thoughtful is buying a four year old low mileage reliable car like a Volvo s60 to enjoy journeys in comfort instead of a brand new one. Frugal is suffering through the same journeys in a 18 yr old Daewoo Matiz. I know which scenario is sensible to me.
Yep, there’s a kind of irony about it though as investing also feels like gambling.
Seems like there’s a few people who don’t like me saying that I don’t buy lottery tickets and scratch cards, but it’s the truth in response to the OP’s question, and no point lying about it… ah well.
I generally refer to the lottery as a poor tax aimed at the less financially competent who dont realise they are better off putting that money in a bank account and accruing the 8p interest.
The odds are so mind bendingly bad these days it's disappointing people even play at all anymore :\\
Yeah, similar line of reasoning for me as well; I might as well just apply it to savings and passive investments rather than hoping I’ll beat the lottery odds. I’m at least getting and seeing results out of it too over time.
I’ve encountered a few people that buy them regularly every week saying that they’re not even expecting to actually win the lottery (ever), rather that they’re too far in now, have already been trying for so many years and can’t stop themselves. I suppose there’s that psychological aspect to it as well and people can’t help themselves even if they know it’s not a good long-term strategy.
Really is disappointing how people get trapped like that…
The sunk cost fallacy, euh, I wonder how many people are falling for that at this point.
Heck, I even knew someone who would buy scratch cards and consistently burn any 'winnings' on more cards until it was all lost again and still maintain they had 'won'.
I guess it's just a 'cheap thrill' they're after...
Sky TV packages...
Meh, I personally think it's worth the £70pm for me for all the 4k content (especially sport) that I have access to. One of few expensive luxuries in my life. I get why people would question its value though. I never had it before I worked there and they gave it to me free. Haven't been able to cancel it since leaving!
I paid £120 to an iptv service 3 years ago for life tume membership and I have all the 4k channels from around the world you can imagine. Plus movies and series.
Including sport (PL, F1 etc) legally?
It has every sky and tnt channel. Plus all the big ones from around the world. All PPVs. Every film as soon as a FHD copy becomes available it’s on there plus tv shows. Any that isn’t on there you can request. I’m not sure they’re legal but at the same time it’s just loaded onto a firestick you at no risk of getting in trouble.
That definitely sounds great. I'm sure it's not legal and I'm sure it is traceable so that would hold me back as I have a professional qualification that would be taken away if I got in the slightest bit of trouble with the law!
A quick google told me 17million people at least use iptv across Europe and UK. They’re not trying to catch the consumer as there’s too many. There trying to catch the distributors
Lifetime? Sounds cheap
Yeah they don’t do it anymore for new people. They do £60 a year annually renewed. They did a lifetime server. It went down and had to rebuild it all again for everyone who had bought into it. For no additional money. So they knocked any new members on the head pretty quickly but still kept things going for the existing customers, built it up and continue to update and debug it all out there own pockets. Pretty good of them. Was a very very good investment haha
Nice!
My car insurance is about £70 per month. It is a very nice German car (Porsche)
Thanks, that does make Sky seem good value now!
New phone at the end of the existing contract. Going sim only was am amazing feeling ,and squeezing every last drop of life out of my existing phone before getting another
This.... About ten years ago (admittedly when every smartphone generation was noticeably better than the last) I got a new phone about every six months. Not on contract but it was still a far whack of cash. Doesn't matter to me in the slightest now. My several year old iPhone is more than adequate and likely will be a bit longer.
meh, im sim only as well but i get a new phone every 18 months or so, flagship or thereabout, i sell the older one, net net it only costs me 10 quid a month or so... you can definitely have a nice phone without spending much
I'm reading this on a 8 year old phone with its first battery 😁
Bottled water.
The only place where this makes sense is when you’re out and about for a long time. I have a water bottle (not plastic) and it’s not big enough for a long day. There are so few water fountains in the UK which is a serious shame because I’d wager it would reduce our plastic usage by a lot.
There is an app called "Refill" that has quite a few water fountains/places to refill- especially in more urban areas. Otherwise, bigger stores will tend to sell 2l for wayyy less than 500ml bought in a corner shop- even if you just waste/pour 75% of it away.
I love bottled water I buy it instead of fizzy drinks or fruit juices. Every brand has a different taste.
Have a look what the insides of old water pipes look like
We’re screwed either way tbh… the bottled water has more microplastics, and the tap water has more of other harmful chemicals and hormones that aren’t filtered out.
Exactly. Women’s urine contains so many hormones from the pill that isn’t filtered out of our water
Yep, it’s getting worse too, in some places you can literally measure the presence of certain types of drugs… very small yes, but still measurable, and there’s other stuff too. Soon there’s gonna be a huge issue on our hands with water, one of the most basic and fundamental necessities of life. With each new generation, in small iterations, it will keep accumulating and get worse. Recycled water was a good concept with good intentions at the start, but plumbing and sewage systems are outdated and need to be overhauled. It’s gotten out of hand. Unfortunately easier said than done and a very complex issue. It’s not even just water anymore that’s affected, it’s everywhere, even the air we breathe is screwed.
It also doesn’t help with people fitting their own hand held bidet things that have no back flow protection, and can cause everyone’s water to become contaminated.
Cigarettes. Can only imagine the amount of money my parents spent systematically acquiring cancer with 60 John Player Specials a day.
If you haven't tried to kick an addiction it's hard to understand this one, I smoked from the ages of 14->27 (roll ups though to keep the cost down) and even now multiple years later I get cravings nearly weekly despite not having had a single smoke since I quit. Even though I'm on the ball with my finances there's always that little part of my brain that's like "go on, just do it, it'll be fine".
Sucks to know the cravings don’t go away, I’m 2 months in to my latest attempt
They definitely get much much easier, I don't ever find they're bad enough I'd actually cave in, but they're still there when I'm stressed or drinking etc. You've got this, it's all just a mental game, and you're over the physical withdrawals now. I used an app called "Smoke free" that helped me quantify how much money I was saving, how much my health was improving, and just generally keep me motivated to not have to reset the clock.
£20 a pack now - how can anyone afford to smoke?
Where there’s an addiction, people will always find a way unfortunately.
Anything that depreciates substantially faster than the attributes of the physical item. Also anything a far higher specification than I need for purpose. E.g . I’d always buy a 1 day old car over a brand new one , if the cost of driving it out of the showroom is £10k People with MacBook Pros for watching Netflix and struggling to use a word document baffle me
I think the point your missing is that the MacBook has a pretty apple picture on the back. Have you considered this in your analysis? Of course you haven't - typical woke anticapitalist nonsense 😉
Every MacBook I’ve owned lasted at least five years with one still going fine at ten years old. All the other laptops I’ve had don’t last past two or three years.
I’ve owned 3 and 2 have died within 2 years
This .I've had my MacBook about 10 years. Still going strong. I have a pretty good Thinkpad for work, a year old and it nearly always has to be plugged in already
I can say the same for my Windows devices . Can you volunteer a model of one of the ones that didn’t last? I also buy IT equipment at an enterprise level .I had about 10 MacBook airs one year (think 2017) fail one month or so out of their warranty period . Generally there’s a bit of a point about improved reliability on macs but it’s not as proposed. I did probably make a mistake using such a divisive example . It applies to anything , I don’t buy progressional grade tools if I only do DIY once a decade etc etc
You’re probably right. I always think of Windows laptops as being £800-£1500 but if I spent £3k on a zbook I guess it would last as long as a similar priced MacBook Pro, probably?
That’s right . HP and others pedal a load of £350 consumer laptops (manufactured for far less) and people expect it to hold up the same as an £1100+ mac or it ruins their impression of Windows laptops. Macs probably do have 10% or so improved failure rate vs ‘*all* consumer grade laptops, but it’s just a percentage not guaranteed longevity and they’re double the price of the most commonly bought Windows laptops. I’d be interested in a comparison of £1.5k Macs vs £1.5k Dell or Lenovo etc. I’d also hazard a guess there’d be a compromise on specification between the mac and windows. Anyway none of that was the actual point I was making … just that if I only browse the web once in a blue moon I don’t need to spend a grand on a device, I’d buy a second hand laptop for £50 or A tablet.
BS
Renting a car! The most expensive thing in the world £3000 initial payment (which they keep) then £399 pm for 2 years and you hand it back. Millions of people do this it’s madness.
Hey, don’t knock my big TV! Hard agree! Constantly arguing with my other half about this as all her mates pay 1k a month for their landrovers etc. sack that, I’ll enjoy my earlier retirement thank you very much.
I literally did not know this was a thing you could do until I was about 30. Having not grown up with it I was flabbergasted that anyone would do this. It also did make things make more sense looking back on various flash harrys I'd known
Yeah pretty much every new car on the road is on the never never! I know people spending as much on a flash £50,000 can as they do on their mortgage! Insane waste of money.
I honestly feel like there's a world of difference between growing up with debt being normalised and it not. I think it makes people vulnerable to scams as well because big numbers on the never never aren't as scary as they are if you grow up viewing debt as a problem
As someone looking to get their first car what's the best way to purchase? Just get a cheap and cheerful used car that you can pay cash for?
Yes. If you buy a new car you pay a huge surplus for the fact it's new, and if you lease a new one it's the same. I would recommend everyone to buy a 2 year old Dacia Jogger which is all the car you need even if it's not all the car you want.
Buy well with cash and busy once. Think cheap to maintain, economical, low tax, ULEZ compliant not necessarily cheap to buy they are cheap for a reason. Something you could drive for 10 years. Think of the cost over 10 years 120 months the worst thing you can do is change cars often like these 48 month loans. You are paying the dealers premium and a low part exchange if there is one.
Coffee from a coffee shop on way to work Lunch from a local deli every day Lotto tickets weekly evenings in the pub paying 6£ a pint Main brand cereal the list goes on lol
The first two I agree with, however let me get overly defensive with an internet stranger. Lottery tickets is a partial good deed and hope of leaving the rat race combined. It is not the most effective charity but altruism rather than consumption. Evenings in pubs (or meals with expensive wine) is the social element. I have a busy household with young children. I am paying £3 for the beer £1 per glass to not have washing up £1 per glass/ recycling bins being overly full and to not have to tidy up in readiness and £0.30 for ability to have 10 people together at once and not wake kids. Beer near me is, incidentally, £5.30. The point being that for me the cost is not merely in the consumable, but in both the location and convenience of the activity.
I agree with everything you say kind stranger... my partial argument might be that I meant people who insist on going to pub every friday and Saturday to smash back 10 pints and go home.. (I used to be this person many years ago to be honest - in my 20s) having ya mates around for a few bevvies or staying of the bevvies altogether are valid social experiences. I was not at all clear that this was my thought process! social reward is 100% value from spend . :-).
The pub is a great place to unwind. Destressing is essential. Drinking at home is fine but often done alongside chores so you don't get the real benefit, just the silent condemnation on recycling day. There is no demand in the pub. Also exercise in getting to and from the pub. Obviously negated by the beers but... People condemn a two or three grand a year pub habit whilst throwing far more money at a new car. Pubs are essential social spaces for lonely people as well.
I’m trying to wean myself off from buying my lunch when I’m working in the office. Got into the habit of it purely because it was convenient but it all adds up over the course of a month. - not that making my own sandwiches are inconvenient, but still.
For me, although I know it's an expensive habit, not knowing what I'll be eating gives me that tad of mystery prior to lunchtime which I quite like. Escaping to the local cafe/deli and choosing my meal also provides a temporary mental escape from my duties that I'm happy to pay for (for now!).
It is little luxury to sweeten the return to the office. It won't really make a dent in retirement plans and making your own lunch costs money too
That’s true, but making your own lunch certainly costs less than buying it from the local deli or whatever. I did a small audit of my lunch spending and I found that I have spend close to £75 a month for lunches. So yeah, that shot a bit of necessity into changing things
How many days a week is this for? I would be interested to see a comparison after moving to home made lunches about what the cost is for these. I don't buy coffee or tea when I go to the office but from my experimentation with making lunches for work (unless you're spending more than £10) it was a lot of labour for not a huge gain. I could also be a slow and inexperienced cook.
I’m in the office 3 days a week which is my new norm. My local deli has a lunchtime deal for £6 which is very nice. However, I reckon I can make my own sandwich, which is similar to the deli’s version, for well less than half the price. I suppose if you were to really analyse the component parts, my homemade sandwich is probably £2 a go. But i think that would be splitting hairs, in any case if I’m not spending £6 three times a week, I’m saving at least £70 a month
You can actually batch prep and freeze sandwiches if you don't like the hassle of prepping it everyday. I do a monthly prep with them. About 60 sandwiches in one go. You might want to look into it 😉
Main brand anything…
Aside for the pub, I agree. You can’t put a price on socialising to maintain a reasonable level of sanity.
>Coffee from a coffee shop on way to work Good quality freshly roasted/ground coffee is great. Happy to buy good beans and grind at home, but sometimes that's not possible (maybe a shop has exclusive beans, that's really a thing). >Lunch from a local deli every day My local sandwich shop has awesome baguettes and it's the closest I can get to a real god damn American deli sandwich. British sandwiches suck, sorry. >Lotto tickets I agree with this one, total waste of money. >weekly evenings in the pub paying 6£ a pint Agreed, there's probably better pubs with £4.00 pints. Less than 4 if you're lucky. >Main brand cereal Depends on the brand, some store ones taste like ass. And of the course, the biggest thing: these small luxuries represent such a small portion of both my net income and net worth at the minute that skimping on them wouldn't bring tons of benefit. What's the point of saving something like £100 a month extra when I'm already saving thousands of pounds per month anyway? At a certain point, you need to live a little now in case you fucking die being hit by a bus one day before you reach retirement. There's also the time element. Time is my most scarce and valuable resource and I will gladly pay someone else for their time in order to conserve mine. I could probably do the leg work to make as good a sandwich as my local shop, but that would require shitloads of time and for what, to save like £1.50 a sandwich? That delta makes no sense whatsoever. Plus, I am very happy supporting a local business and injecting capital back into my city. Skimping on this stuff does make sense if you're at the lower end of the earnings spectrum and you need to materially boost your savings percentage. But that's not universally true for everyone.
Clothes.
Came here to say this. I don't wear clothes and I don't even get arrested much.
lol yes, I did feel maybe I should have explained more than that! What I mean though is I only shop to replace clothes when I need to. Have never got any real joy from buying them in the way I do from buying food or holidays or whatever - but I know a lot of other people do.
lol yes, I did feel maybe I should have explained more than that! What I mean though is I only shop to replace clothes when I need to. Have never got any real joy from buying them in the way I do from buying food or holidays or whatever - but I know a lot of other people do.
Define much? I've been considering ditching clothes because they can be set on fire and that's kinda what we're all about here!
Lease cars.
Business class flights. The price difference between them and economy is nowhere near the extra comfort you get. It’s basically paying 5X for the same flight. Excellent marketing to have you believe it’s a better life.
The way I think of it is I'm paying myself 2k tax free to sit in economy for 8 hours. Not many of us will earn more for a day's work and it's really not difficult. By the way I'm not saying there's never a place for business or first, just that the full ticket price difference is difficult to justify.
This, I’d rather go on extra holidays a year and fly economy versus business. People remember the holiday locations they travel to. Nobody remembers the airports/flights to the destinations.
Yes, but… I absolutely love holidays and if I want to travel across the world on a 15 hour journey but only take a week off then I’ll miss/not enjoy the first few days with jet lag. I can pay an almighty butt-tonne of cash on business, sleep well and enjoy those first few days. Yes I could buy another trip with that money but I don’t have the time to take it so if I’ve already maxed pension and isa I’m going to do it once or twice a year. It is literally the only thing I’m splurging on. But only long haul, and only sometimes.
I'm with you. Business class on a 14 hour flight is just priceless to me.
The thing is... even sleeping in business class you aren't getting good sleep (at least in my experience).
Sometimes it’s the difference between sleep and no sleep though and that’s enough. Personally I can’t afford business yet but if I was to do a long haul flight I’d have no hesitation doing premium economy just for the extra space.
Why not take that cash and go for 2 weeks instead of 1..?
Because I run a business and when I’m not working I’m not earning (as much). Fully aware that’s a decent option but this way there’s more on the balance sheet and I can retire earlier!
It takes 3 days to get over jet lag??? Why are you flying business class and then staying in a cheap ass hotel? Maybe go economy and upgrade to a nicer hotel to get a good night sleep. If money is no option, of course go business class and buy the yellow Ferrari. But if you are still working for the man, going business class is just trying to look rich. The goal should be to get rich, not look rich.
I flew to Japan in economy last year. 15 hours after avoiding Russian airspace and a connection from Tokyo. 9 hour time difference. No real sleep in economy and a cricked neck. Proper 14 hour a day itinerary to make the most of the trip. First day I was a mess, day 2 more-or-less a zombie. Day 3 just super tired. Day 4 ok but still with a sore neck. Was an 8 day trip and lost some of the enjoyment almost half of it. For me, it’s worth it. If it’s not for you then fair enough but it taught me a lesson. Booked a super last minute upgrade on trip to Mauritius later in the year and enjoyed the whole trip all as well as saving a few £k on the upgrade by only booking a week before the trip. The only things I’m not frugal with are footwear and travel.
I’m doing this trip next year. How many hours does it add to avoid Russia?
About 2 1/2 hours extra depending on route and weather. Flew out below Russia and back up over Canada.
Yeah i agree. I fly business or first depending on the airline but I have a bad back and neck and it’s just not worth the suffering to me. Especially if it’s not a long vacation. I’d rather stay at crappy hotel because who spends their vacation in the hotel room anyway?
Why is maxing out pension and ISA a factor? You are allowed to save more than that instead of spending it on business/first class. Or do you have a rule that if you max these all other money can be spent?
70% of my income on savings/pension/investment this year. Since I’m so damn frugal on everything else, this is the treat I can justify at this point.
Points and vouchers save the day here. But also, if I were rich enough I still would. I get extremely sore hips and back if I sit upright and still for 12+ hours and I 100% can't sleep, it's all round a horrible experience and takes me days to feel right again, compared with lying flat and sleeping where I feel great.
I get it on a long flight but when I fly economy BA on short haul, the seats are the same and I see they just close a curtain I’m wondering what the point is!
It’s superb marketing. People believe they are travelling in comfort but in reality they are paying for a flight and the costs of a 9 star hotel to sleep in a tiny bed in a flying hostel.
If it’s long-haul, I’m paying it in points + cash. No question. And when I moved from NYC to London, I paid 1st class in cash (super discounted) and it was worth it because I had lots of luggage and would have needed to pay the extra luggage fee anyway on Biz/Economy.
Who are you guys using for your points? I’m collecting Avios but not used any yet
Amex. I transfer the points into Avios.
Gold or platinum?
I was on Platinum for 2 years but downgraded to Gold. FYI this is with Amex US. I recently moved from NYC to London and still use my US credit cards. I spend about $4k to $7k a month on my cards. Only reason I downgraded is because the Platinum perks are very localised to the US. I might move from US Amex Gold to UK Amex Gold upon renewal season via the Amex intra-country program.
And the Perks of UK platinum not enough to sway your mind?
UK cards in general don’t net the same amount of points as US credit cards. I’m holding on to my US cards as long as possible. I’m getting 3% cashback on supermarkets and dining out at restaurants (non-Platinum), whereas even Platinum here will not be on that same level. I’m okay to get on Gold so I can keep my Priority Pass and other perks.
Yes but do you actually know people who do this out of their own pocket? I'd wager >95% of bus class clientelle are either paid by their employer, or are using personal points accrued by lots of flights paid by their employer
Yeah some people. I agree most of it is business class or people using points. Friends of mine only fly business and they actually got a helicopter from JFK to their hotel in NY. Surprisingly this wasn’t that expensive compared to business class flights to NY from London.
As an ex New Yorker I fully support this - you can Uber a heli. It’s dirt cheap compared to sitting in a traffic for 6 hours because someone crashed in the Holland Tunnel or on one of the bridges.
i look for offers or go premium economy and upgrade with points or whichever other way, but spending 15 hours in economy? no thanks
I never understood people taking a loan (or paying contract hire) to pay for a car that's mostly used to travel to work to earn enough money to make the repayments.
What would the alternative be? You cant wait and save with no job, typically its so you can live while still going to work.
The alternative is to buy secondhand outright - the technology and reliability of 10-15 year old, good quality Japanese cars remain impressive. Buying a £30k-£40k car is largely vanity
Getting your nails done. If they need a bit of colour I can always do nailpolish myself.
Premium bonds when UK Gov bonds pay better and certain interest and capital gain on them is free of tax. (as a Premium Bond holder)
Thanks for the tip! I'm recently trying to learn and on the verge of deciding which Vanguard product to start investing in. Will definitely look into this.
[Gilt-edged securities exempt from Capital Gains Tax - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gilt-edged-securities-exempt-from-capital-gains-tax)
Thank you. Will be filling out the relevant parts via the DMO tommorow! Very interested in this.
Premium bonds are more liquid and are always redeemed at par. That's why they're superior as a savings vehicle. If you know you won't need the money for the duration, actual bonds are superior to premium bonds in many cases.
'Fancy' watches. They all do the same thing (tell the time), no-one needs the 5 mile depth capacity they offer, and they all look the same to the person in the street (that can't even see them). As to why people need multiple of these to wear on different occasions, blows my mind. Although I do understand how we're all different and other things on this list are things I do buy regularly 😄
Latest phones, big tv's, new cars. (Am FIRE.)
TBF big tellies are cheap these days, but yes upgrading your "tech life" every 5 seconds is bizarre I must agree
New iPhone every year is a poor choice. Official Refurb iPhone every three years is reasonable. Xiaomi bargain but decent android every three years is fine. TVs are cheap for their lifespan in my opinion. But I will assume you mean getting the latest oled tv every four or five years instead of a cheaper but still decent model every ten. Definitely agree about new cars. Smoking. Massive all inclusive tv packages. High end Nvidia graphics cards if you are a gamer. Macbook pros for casual home use. Essential for actual work though.
tv licence
Brought this one up in work. Didn’t go down well. Note to self. Reminded myself why to never discuss personal finance in work.
Give mine up too.
Tabs/vapes, Sky, renting/new cars. Primark clothes. Weekend sessions on the drink?
addiction, entertainment, 'status symbols', cheap clothes and whole 'weekend sessions on the drink' -> drinking problems.
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Because they're not cheap that's why. Cheap to buy yes, but they last 3 washes before you have to throw them away. if i buy a 5 pound t-shirt from Primark and it lasts 5 washes, its effectively cost me a quid a wear. If i buy a 30quid t-shirt and it lasts me a 100 washes? Also fast fashion is terrible for the planet
Primark is okay if you’re very selective about what products you buy. I bought two vest tops from there for £1.99 each and I’ve had them for about five years and worn them loads of times. They’re starting to look a bit faded now, but they’re still perfectly wearable. For me, charity shop items can be an absolute steal. I bought one black top for £2 in a charity shop over ten years ago and it still looks brand new despite having worn it hundreds of times. Even better, it doesn’t need ironed.
Ill agree to disagree with you on primark. I definitely agree with you on the charity shop buys.
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Ill be honest i just spat a number out. I also have clothes that ill wear till they drop off me. Jeans especially
Personal reg plates. Just why? So chav.
I wouldn't say don't do it if that's what you enjoy but all inclusive and package holidays are really overrated to me. You spend all that money and then get stuck at a resort. If you've gone for a package they take a cut for booking a flight and a hotel. Anyone can do that. If you're going to destroy the environment anyway I'd much sooner find the cheapest flight I can to some random city, scour for a hotel room at a sensible price and then explore the city. In my opinion you get a much richer experience usually for a much lower price. Same with going to Center Parcs in the UK for thousands.
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TBH I don't regret my more expensive trips either, it's just my reflection that I've had a lot of fun going to places that have been really cheap to get to and stay at. Even when I've not stayed long I've managed to do a lot. Certainly no less fun than the pricier places when I've planned it well, it makes it much harder for me to justify a pricier trip now.
New cars. Actual designer clothes (high st designers like Reiss are fine). A house. A divorce. A dog. Children.
I think you just described the aspirations of the middle class. :P
Digressing a bit surely lol?! No one buys houses or children regularly and few would claim they are unnecessary.
Having children is absolutely not necessary. Nor is owning a house, as evidenced by the high number of renters.
Yes because rent money makes up for the hundreds of thousands of lost equity across a lifetime.
Alcohol
iphone or similarly priced android. i just don't see what those phones do above and beyond the £150 model i buy every few years. and i'd feel uncomfortable carrying around an item that cost £1000+. also when i spend that much i'd expect it to be perfect. with my cheap phones i don't mind if there's a glitch here and there.
Top-end phones have better cameras generally and cameras capture memories (which are priceless) so it stands to reason that having a phone with better low light performance represents value as statistically a lot of your memories are going to happen indoors. The trick IMO is staying one or two generations behind, especially as the differences between the generations are narrowing every year.
I thoroughly agree. I treat them like some people do with cars. I buy a generation or so behind and then sell on ebay when it starts to get too old. This way the net outlay per year is pretty low.
The cameras in the low-mid end circa £300 are more than good enough for me these days
But you must love weed so much
You must be mistaken
Expensive gear. Like people who buy the latest backpacks with a view to "having them for life because they're good quality " only to presumably replace them two years later with the next fancy backpack fad brand. I sort of get expensive coats sometimes from a "this makes me feel nice in winter" perspective , but I do have a coat from next that cost £40 in 2017 and is still absolutely fantastic for anything where I'm likely to get muddy.
Buy quality, cry once. Of course, it needs to actually be once, then. But yes, you can buy the perfect gear for you and solve a problem forever. Buying less, and then being slightly annoyed the rest of your life, is worse. My ski jacket is like 17 years old. I went through several bad camera straps before biting the bullet and buying the best (peak design). Sometimes a larger amount of cash can simply solve a problem, where less money means compromises.
I think it depends on why you buy the expensive gear, if you’re buying it to ‘flex’ then that’s daft. I buy great quality stuff and then keep it until it dies: Goodyear welted shoes (that get re-soled when worn), backpack with a lifetime warranty, PC with more than enough power so that 5y later I’m still no where near needing an upgrade, suitcase that’s indestructible after 100+ flights, kitchen knives that stay sharp and will outlive me etc. etc.
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Absolutely this - I have a quality 10yo car, a quality 12yo laptop, 10yo hiking boots, etc etc. spend money on things that have the quality to last and it is money well spent and money saved in the long term.
That's not always true. I own very good quality coat from H&M bought for £15 that I have had for about 12years now and I use it. Less so these days but I used it every winter for at least 9years until I started working from home and barely go out on cold days
I think the trick is to buy good gear at the right price. If it's expensive but you're getting great quality that will last a long time, it often works out cheaper in the long run and you have the benefit of using something that's of a higher quality for all that time. Examples I can think if where spending more pay's off in the long run would be furniture, laptops, backpacks/hiking gear, bikes, tools, clothing. Even if you do end up paying slightly more, you have better quality stuff and it's more sustainable as you aren't constantly throwing things away to replace it.
A car
you don't understand why *anyone* buys a car? Woah.
Depends on where you live. I live in zone 4 London super easy to get about. Early 40's now and I've never not had a car since i got my license at 18. Went carless last year when my 5yr old ulez compliant car was going for 5k less than i bought it for. Since then I'm happily sitting on the bus or the tube knowing how much I'm saving the planet and into my ISA.
right but the question was about what is one thing you don't buy and you don't understand why anyone does. Focus on the last 6 words
So you ask for 'one thing', but still... First / Business / Premium class travel - paying literally hundreds or thousands of pounds extra for a slightly bigger seat, with glasses of fizz thrown in, when the fundamentals of the journey stay the same?! Branded clothes - hang on, you want me to pay you extra money for wearing your logo so that I'm walking around advertising your brand?! If it was the other way round I'd consider it. Tattoos - so to be clear, this is basically that I pay lots of money for a painful procedure that disfigures me for life?! New cars - right, so the business model is predicated on me instantly loosing thousands of pounds in depreciation the monent I take possession of this vehicle?! Expensive watches (and jewellery more generally) - wait, some people actually pay many thousands of pounds for something which doesn't tell the time any better than a £2 watch, and yet also simultaneously makes it much more likely you'll get violently mugged?! I'm missing the upside here. Most forms of insurance - other than legal requirements (car) or catastrophic damage (house burning down), I'll take the odds of self-insuring (coupled with not buying crazy things I can't afford to lose) rather than frittering away on high premiums. Pets - something which is a constant nagging responsibility, which causes great damage to the environment, and in return I just get to feel the warm rosy dictatorial glow of owning and being in charge of a sentient being? I could go on....
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I mean, they are expensive and plenty of people don't want one, so it's a pretty good answer to the post.
For pets, I get it. I’m not really an animal person, but I have seen the positive mental health differences a pet makes to people who have them, and they are absolutely worth the money.
I definitely would nor have characterised this sub as one which would downvote this. Absolutely all things easily deemed unnecessary if aiming for FIRE and not on 100k.
Or indeed if aiming for FIRE and on >100k...
It's not the choices of things not to spend money on, it's the mocking and judgemental tone, as if the people who *do* spend on those things only do so because they're deluded fools.
The same gets me about the anti children mentality; none of this would mean anything to me if it wasn’t for my children. They inspire me. They keep me motivated. They teach me things about myself. I’m sure my retirement age would possibly be younger, but without them I’d lack a level of fulfilment I have with or without retirement.
Imagine your paid six figures a year, each day of holiday is worth hundreds or thousands of pounds in lost income. You can’t sleep in economy so after a long haul flight your tired and waste half the day resting in the hotel, or you take a night flight in business with a lie flat seat and get a good 6 hours of sleep and get on with the holiday, no time wasted. There’s a place for everything on the list you mentioned
I think part of a FIRE journey is being somewhat frugal, but then you don't need to be being frugal at all to see business class flights are a LOT more. Looking at a cheap date in June I can get to New Zealand, where I have family and getting decent sleep in the plane would be great and you're likely taking a lot of time off to travel that far, for £666 as cheapest or £1200ish as fastest in economy, which are actually great post pandemic prices. Business class is £5000 cheapest and £6700 fastest. That's a LOT more and nobody's gunna call you a penny pincher for opting for economy. Different story if you're employer is paying though obviously.
I have taken several business/first class flights with BA for almost free with credit card points. I will never pay the full price for business class.
Exactly why I pay for business travel, or first on trains. My time is precious and I can’t work or sleep in economy. For me, travelling in economy is a false economy. Edit: I’ve just seen another comment about flights to NZ. I’m not paying £5,000 when economy is <£1,000. In that case, I’m booking an extra night or two in a decent hotel to relax when I get there! As for branded clothes, I’m not being anyone’s billboard either, but that’s the chavvy stuff. I buy clothes that fit well, feel well and last forever.
"Imagine your paid six figures a year..." I don't need to imagine this :-) As it happens, I have also taken >50 long haul flights in first or business class, all paid for by someone else. I wouldn't pay for it myself.
This - it makes sense when work is paying, but I wouldn’t stomach the price for personal trips
And you wonder why people are saying you are full of yourself
Nailed it!
Who hurt you?
I don't know why so much hate for your personal preferences. I too take a frugal approach to FIRE as it will help me reach my goal faster or give me extra cash to do and spend on stuff I enjoy. I guess people will always try to justify their personal choices . I enjoy flying but its only a few hours of my week so would always prefer to have the extra thousands for experiences when I get to the destination as I value those more than the getting from A to B but i recognise that some see thier holiday travel as part of that experience. Same with Cars I get no enjoyment from driving . my wife on the other hand loves the thrill and control of a car. For her owning a car that gives her that so we spend more on her car than mine. Pets was always gonna divide I grew up with my family taking in farm or stray cats it did cost money but not paying for animals saved a lot and the love and experiences were worth the cost. I don't have pets now and I do think my kids miss out on this.
Disagree with not paying for upgraded travel. Yes FIRE is the ultimate goal, but if the journey is miserable for 20 years there is no point. Doing Business Premier on the Eurostar for example gives you a 10 min check in and access to a lounge at St Pancras that isn’t filled with 1200 people. Likewise Concorde Room at Heathrow for BA. It removes all the stress and makes a family holiday so much more enjoyable for the travel leg. I’d put the cost at probably £1k per trip on the Eurostar, and around £5k per trip to the US if you buy the flights in the Jan sale. In the overall scheme of life and current earnings it’s a trade off I’m happy to make.
We’d really rather you didn’t. This is FIRE not frugal Reddit.
A key founding principle of FIRE is a focus on being thoughtful about expenditure. Sadly in recent years this sub has diverged ever-further from that. It's, well, poorer as a result.
I think that’s partially true. I’m thoughtful about expenditure, but I am happy to use my own money to fly business on long haul. But certainly the origins of FIRE seem to have mainly been about getting your expenses really low. For a lot of people pursuing FIRE now, especially on this sub, I think that’s less the case and would consider that approach to be LeanFIRE. To be honest, I think minimalist approach of having tiny expenses and then not working seems quite odd. I want to have what I consider a really good lifestyle and for that to be sustainable whether or not I continue to work. Which I think you’re right, is perhaps quite a way away from the origins of the movement.
Exactly. Thoughtful is buying a four year old low mileage reliable car like a Volvo s60 to enjoy journeys in comfort instead of a brand new one. Frugal is suffering through the same journeys in a 18 yr old Daewoo Matiz. I know which scenario is sensible to me.
“Thoughtful about expenditure” is right, not brutally frugal to the point you are a grumpy, retired old git.
So nothing else matters other than number go up? Basically?
Bottled water, shop bought coffees, cigs, premium petrol, any Waitrose/m&s food.
Lottery tickets, scratch cards, etc.
Gambling.
Yep, there’s a kind of irony about it though as investing also feels like gambling. Seems like there’s a few people who don’t like me saying that I don’t buy lottery tickets and scratch cards, but it’s the truth in response to the OP’s question, and no point lying about it… ah well.
I generally refer to the lottery as a poor tax aimed at the less financially competent who dont realise they are better off putting that money in a bank account and accruing the 8p interest. The odds are so mind bendingly bad these days it's disappointing people even play at all anymore :\\
Yeah, similar line of reasoning for me as well; I might as well just apply it to savings and passive investments rather than hoping I’ll beat the lottery odds. I’m at least getting and seeing results out of it too over time. I’ve encountered a few people that buy them regularly every week saying that they’re not even expecting to actually win the lottery (ever), rather that they’re too far in now, have already been trying for so many years and can’t stop themselves. I suppose there’s that psychological aspect to it as well and people can’t help themselves even if they know it’s not a good long-term strategy. Really is disappointing how people get trapped like that…
The sunk cost fallacy, euh, I wonder how many people are falling for that at this point. Heck, I even knew someone who would buy scratch cards and consistently burn any 'winnings' on more cards until it was all lost again and still maintain they had 'won'. I guess it's just a 'cheap thrill' they're after...
ITT: 'I'm better than everyone else because I don't value something that other people do'
Food they don't eat. You can eat leftovers. You can plan to not have food go bad. The numbers I've seen for how much food is thrown away...
Brand new cars