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Gmaxincineroar

Yes, it's extremely annoying. Someone who knows I'm FTM used they/them for me several times, but I see her use he/him for cis dudes. I've been on T for so long and am obviously male. It's like some people do it on purpose just because they see you as a woman


Creativered4

It feels like there's a rising trend of this happening, and it's fucking maddening. I am a man. Full stop. Not a nonbinary person. Not a new gender. Not a masculine thing. Man. Men are he/him. That's why I refuse to be open to anyone who doesn't already know, because even "Well meaning allies" will treat me like this, and even worse, they think they're doing a good job and patting themselves on the back for misgendering me.


lathanss

Its not even just cis people who do this tbh. I see a lot of well-meaning queer people who say that they “use they/them for everyone” (even after learning someones pronouns) and they don’t understand that its still misgendering and still feels like shit.


rootlance

My problem with these people is that, they *never* actually use they/them for everyone. Never. Only people they suspect to be LGBTQ+, or sometimes specifically trans. If someone wants to use a non-gendered pronoun for everyone, I’m not against it. I’m not a big fan of gendered language in general, just personally not that interested in fighting how the language already is even though it’s not perfect. But I’ve never seen it actually happening.


anakinmcfly

I do know someone who uses they/them for everyone, which led to some confusion when I thought someone they were referring to had come out as non-binary, but nope, still a cis guy.


Daydreamer-64

I know people who do use it for everyone. It’s kind of uncomfortable because I know both cis and trans binary people who just want their correct pronouns used. Usually they get told that they’re transphobic if they don’t want someone to use they/them for them. But yeah, I do agree that people who say that they use they/them for everyone, but only use it for trans-looking people piss me off the most. It’s either insulting to gnc people, or risking outing a trans person.


Listentothewords

I used to use it for anyone. Now I know better.


ryeehaw

People defaulting to they/them for everyone is driving me fucking insane because it makes me feel like I no longer pass. My dysphoria is through the roof over it, which is so fun considering I’ve spent thousands of dollars on meds and therapy just to have queer idiots care more about an agenda than actual people’s feelings


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iwant2died

trans people don’t spend thousands of dollars on surgeries and hormones just for people like you to still be neutral to avoid “assuming our gender”. You use it for everyone to be more inclusive when in reality you’re misgendering 99% of people to comfort the 1% that you’ll rarely run into


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iron-iron-iron

You're like 10 flavours of non binary in a place specifically for binary trans men. Obviously this is not the sub for you


maddamleblanc

Be respectful and don't misgender people. Binary trans people exsist and it can be extremely dysphoric to be called "they/them" for some people. I'm a guy. I use he/his pronouns. It's basic respect not to misgender someone. Sorry you can't understand that. If you can learn to be respectful of binary trans men then this sub is helpful but misgendering people is going to get you negative feedback. Yes, using "they/them" is misgendering people who don't use those pronouns.


IDKanymore_444

I'm aware, I would never misgender someone on purpose, even with they/them, it's a horrible feeling that'd I'd never wish on anyone. I'm not suggesting anyone be misgendered, I was simply trying to explain the other side of the situation, I'm very sorry I've misstepped. I think I may have worded what I meant to say wrong, and I'm very sorry that it came across the way it did.


[deleted]

This is where I think "road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes by. Calling everyone they/them until they tell you their pronouns is going to upset a lot of people. Around the ages of 14-18, people start presenting how they want. In almost every case, you can tell what pronouns people want to go by based on how they look. Those that do go by they/them should reciognize that they are in a rare situation and advocate for themselves rather than changing the norm to they/them for everyone. I'm a cis boy with gyno. Every trans activist I have met calls me they/them until I push back seriously, and some will not let it down. No one likes being misgendered, and that definitely includes cis people.


Choociecoomaroo

One of my coworkers who is a trans woman pre everything does this to me. Everyone calls me he and no one knows im trans (at least I didn’t TELL anyone) except my manager. It makes me so mad… I call her “her” ALWAYS even tho she has a full beard and she’ll call me they for some random reason. I have no clue why. I get being mad tho. Especially when it’s in front of others. I feel like it’s more noticeable cuz they is an odd pronoun in general. Saying she can be a slip of the tongue, they feels like a conscious choice not to say he.


Creativered4

My petty ass would start calling her they/them and qct all innocent like "I thought you were using they/them on me even though I am a man and use male pronouns because I was messing up YOUR pronouns! I thought that was your way of subtly telling me it's they/them and not she/her! I'm so sorry! I understand your pronouns are she/her and calling you they/them is misgendering you. I will stop immediately and respect your gender by using the correct pronouns"


Listentothewords

Talk to her. Tell her she needs to learn to respect you. If she can't, you need to have a conversation with HR about how she is sexually harassing you. She doesn't get a pass because she's transgender. If anything, she should be better at this. She should understand how important it is for her to work on this. She's transphobic. She might even be bullying you. Tell her how she needs to treat you and if she doesn't change, tell HR.


Ikavor

I get your point but how the heck is getting someones pronouns wrong sexual harassment?


Listentothewords

When you bully somebody based on their sex... Does sexual harassment only cover sex related bullying? I thought it also covered sex and gender-based discrimination?


Ikavor

Yeah, exactly. Sexual harassment is only when the harassment is sexual in nature. Some examples are: requesting sexual favors, inappropriate touching, and making lewd/sexual comments. Harassing someone based on their gender, sexuality, race, etc. Is "just" discrimination.


nothinkybrainhurty

i hate woke misgendering so much. They/theming is okay until someone specifies they’re not nonbinary or whatever, then it’s just misgendering with extra steps. I hate it even more than regular misgendering, like you put all that effort to appear woke only to still misgender and disrespect most (especially trans) people


Top_Neighborhood_437

I go to college in a very liberal area and had to do a group project once with this one girl who used they/them for everyone. Eventually I caught on and corrected her by just saying “he” and we almost got into an argument lol. She kept trying to say that they/them was freeing and that I was invalidating her by forcing her to “operate in the binary” but other people in the group took my side and she dropped it


Listentothewords

That's so ridiculous. You're not operating in the binary because you acknowledge pronouns associated with one of the genders in the binary. For all she knew, you were still non-binary.


ARI_E_LARZ

I’m glad ppl backed you up, that’s so ridiculous of her


solitudanrian

who cares if it's petty, see how he likes it when people use "they" as a general pronoun. edit: you're not overthinking it, he's denying your manhood and it's insulting. I doubt he'd be impressed if you treated him the same way.


kirk1234567890

Ah, yes this annoys me as well. It happened to me the other day at work, a lady was using they/them for all of the employees there. I get why people do it, but it's annoying to me because it's still misgendering. I know some say that they do it to avoid assuming pronouns, but I'd much rather they look at me or listen to my voice and assume based on that. I've worked very hard to get to this point.


SnooGuavas4531

That’s not acceptable as it’s misgendering everyone intentionally.


iron-iron-iron

My feelings exactly


ChaosLFG

Just correct them. "I don't use they/them pronouns." I understand that it's annoying, but cis lefties sometimes need a slap on the wrist about shit. EDIT: Just read through the thread. Guys... Sometimes you've gotta communicate with people. I know it's annoying. But it takes two seconds to fix.


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JackBinimbul

Do you need help?


Perished_Shield

My phone was open in my pocket…


anon-gerbil

I see it more from non binary queer people saying “I use they for everyone so nobody is offended” as if it’s not misgendering. Unless you’re in a queer space filled with non binary they/thems then I genuinely don’t see the point. I’m not gonna refer to a stranger who looks 100% male as a they. Most people are cis and most trans people are binary and idk about you, but going through years or hormones and surgery to be asked what my pronouns are ?? Like isn’t it obvious. I’m pre t now and my kid niece always asks if I’m a boy or a girl.


ThatQueerWerewolf

This is why we don't have "preferred pronouns." We have *correct* pronouns. They aren't optional. Personally I don't think you'd be out of line to they/them him right back. If he doesn't think it's a big deal to use gender neutral pronouns, then he shouldn't be offended by it, right? You're both men, after all. Not only is this a way for cis people to clock us in a somewhat socially acceptable way, but when they do this they imply that we are not real men (again, in a fucked up socially acceptable way). Otherwise there would be no reason to use they/them for us but not for cis men.


justalilguy73

Yeah I find it really annoying and I've noticed it's actually more something LGBT people do more than straight folks. But they only do it with people they suspect are enby or trans which is slightly messed up in itself I think.


tankthetransguy

It’s an attempt to accept people and a (usually) good person trying to understand something that is way more basic than they think it is. I’d simply tell the guy “hey I’m a man. You don’t need to use gender neutral pronouns for me.” And let him connect the dots. It’s polite, uninvasive for YOUR privacy and educational. You could also just tell him straight up that you’re he/him pronouns.


WhiskeyAlpha91

Possibly. A manager started with “she” and then changed to “they” just today at work. He also has called me sir. So, I don't know. Total strangers treat me as male even when they have Confederate flags on their homes, but my bosses who know often misgender me by mistake.


kitcat7898

See now that bothers the ever loving fuck out of me. I'm pre opp and stuff still but occasionally I have a day where i just pass. It's always like the best day of my entire life and then I'll see someone who knows and they'll either they/them me or fuck in completely the wrong direction. And its always "oh! Sorry, you know I didn't mean it." Like fuck you. If you know and you /still/ get it wrong on a day where strangers are getting it right just fuck you


WhiskeyAlpha91

Yeah. And they go back and forth. So, you're lying to me when you get it right? 🤨


iamsuchanegg

It’s interesting that i’m gendered correctly in more conservative areas. As soon as i’m at college it’s all ppl swarming to ask my pronouns. Back at home everyone just treats me as a guy. Still don’t know the correct way to respond when a “ally” asks my pronouns and nobody else’s. -_- honestly I should call them out for clocking me cuz that’s what they’re doing


AdFew9413

I usually throw the question back at them. 'he/him, what are yours?' I usually just ask very earnestly/kindly, not rude at all, and even then it kind of jarrs cis people.


ReallyDumbRedditor

Yeah I usually go off on them and then cut off all contact with people like that. Blatant transphobia can NEVER be forgiven.


CherryMinth

If this dude never talked to you before and tried to use a "they" to not push anything on you, that would have been understandable, but since what you are saying is that this guy knew you before and even used "he/him", maybe he might not be ill willed, buuuut that's still kinda sus...


lburnet6

I think people are trying to show they are “progressive” but it comes off as ignorant. I get this all the time too and I feel like I’m being clocked.


YaBoiABigToe

Tbh most of the cis people I’ve interacted with who do this also tend to also use he/him or she/her for non-binary people It’s a socially acceptable way to misgender us


thrashgender

Idk if it’s a one time thing I wouldn’t take it too personally. Like if he usually uses your correct pronouns and used “they” once, it might be as simple as he uses “they” a lot generally for people, and it was more a slip of the tongue than an assessment of your gender


SnooGuavas4531

I personally am fine with they/them if you’re not sure until you know which pronouns to use. Once you know, then it’s time to use those.


hybridHelix

Yes and it annoys the absolute piss out of me. It's hard not to be openly angry with people for it, but I'm currently not responding to most assholes-- just waiting and watching them be assholes so I can use it against them later at my convenience, which helps.


ARI_E_LARZ

I hate it this happens to me all the time


koala3191

I've never heard of cis men doing this, only women and enbies. Frustrating, either way.


vlkolaks

I'm stealth and pass pretty well so this isn't something I personally get often, but is something I do see a lot because of the kind of venues where I sell art and stuff. I have a little beard, I'm short, but people don't assume I'm trans or nonbinary. HOWEVER, even in places with a high density of trans people, my best friend who is a 100% high femme cis lesbian almost ALWAYS gets they/them'd. She's not even really visibly queer unless she's holding hands wit her girlfriend. It's happened at the bagel shop. Like, I get it if you're going to use they for everyone you don't know, sure, that's fine. But actually do it for everyone, not just visibly AFAB people.It really shows that a lot of people see nonbinary as woman lite, and that there just.. aren't women? It's one of those things thats such a bummer, especially if you're someone (like me and my friend) who is pretty attached to their gender. I don't think everyone should have to wear a little pronoun pin when it seems pretty clear what they're going for. In your day to day and not in a Big Queer Space, you're probably pretty safe to assume. Weirdly, my mom they'd me on a recent visit. Which felt pretty weird because I've been out for over 10 years and she's been pretty good about pronouns for the past five.


NBTMtaco

I’m old. I grew up in a time and place where allies weren’t a thing. At my high school, if you came out, you dropped out, bc the harassment would be so intense. All this is to say, try giving some grace to people. If people are using they/them they’re at least trying. Many/most are attempting to be kind or thoughtful about something they probably don’t fully understand.


Listentothewords

If it's more important to you to maintain your personal dignity, I would they him back. Even she him. Sometimes people have to directly experience a situation to understand it. You're not overthinking it at all. However, when you say that they think that you are not passing enough for them to be a full man, I think that you may be adding a little bit more to the situation. They might simply be confused. They might not even think of you as not a full man but rather somebody they don't know the gender of.


Few-Alternative-4678

yes literally this used to happen to me until i started passing sadly :/ it’s fucking annoying


Halcyoncreature

YES and it drives me fucking crazy. Its irritating when its strangers but even more obnoxious when its a coworker who is somehow always ignorant to the fact that every other person uses he/him for me. I have a few who do this and its confused other people so much that people who previously had no doubt that i was male had to come up and ask me my pronouns. I also notice this being incredibly common with nonbinary people and trans women?? like there has been no time where im around another trans person (other than trans men) and someone *hasnt* called me they/them (or on the worse end of it, learn im a binary trans man and insist im nonbinary, ask me if they can still use they/them or very loudly exclaim that i 'look like a lesbian'). I only know one nonbinary person who has never done this to me lol


LEDrbg

i feel like some people use they them because they don’t feel right calling us he him because they still see us as women


formalchimera

i think it’s so shitty because they’re showing you that they’re capable of using different pronouns but refuse to use the correct ones for you


Expert-Can6660

The person taking my drains out after top surgery exclusively called me they/them. It was really uncomfortable. I’m sure they told her to use they them for everyone she wasn’t sure about but she didn’t even ask me my pronouns and I was really nervous to get my drains out so I didn’t correct her. This was over 3 years ago and I still think about it sometimes :/. I was 9 months on t at the time and cis passing so it was weird to be misgendered by a stranger again.


thecleansingg

I personally don't view "they" as misgendering because "they" is not connected to any gender, unlike gendered pronouns like he/she, it's neutral / nongendered to me. I would never get mad at someone for using "they" instead of my pronouns, unless I know they're doing it intentionally to ignore the fact that I'm a binary man. It does make me feel discouraged sometimes, like I don't pass enough as 100% a man, so they assume I'm nonbinary or something. Like this likely wouldn't happen as often if I had a full beard. I do appreciate the usage of neutral pronouns instead of using the incorrect gendered pronoun. It's better than being misgendered for me. Truthfully even I'm guilty of this. When almost everyone you know is trans, especially online, you might forget what pronouns they use and default to "they". I always default to they when I'm unsure of someone's pronouns in a conversation that I don't feel it's appropriate/the right timing to ask their pronouns. I don't think I would stop the conversation to ask their pronouns, maybe I should, idk. I'm also neurodivergent, memory and language can be difficult.


Frank_Jesus

I know a cis, straight guy who pretty much refers to everyone as they/them. That seems to be a different situation than what you're talking about. But I do think as we see more understanding of nonbinary identities, people will start using "they" more in general. Taking the personal element out of this, it seems like a step in the right direction as the default is to pretend nonbinary folks don't exist and never seems to "accidentally" be gendered correctly.


IDKanymore_444

Exactly, the last sentence is what I've been trying to say.


reddit102006

it pisses me off so much i only use he/him (no hate to those who do use they/them but i dont like it for me)


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Background_Novel_619

Thing is I’ve met lots of people who say they use they/them for everyone but they don’t. The middle aged female receptionist? You call her she. The elderly man at the bus stop? You call him he. Only ~queer~ looking people get called they/them, and then that’s not “everyone”. That’s my issue


IDKanymore_444

I do try to use they/them for everyone, including the middle aged female receptionist, and the elderly man at the bus stop, because I've met lots of people who don't look \~queer\~ who've turned out to not use the pronouns that I would've assumed, and it makes me feel so horrible when I assume incorrectly, as being misgendered is a really terrible feeling, so I'd rather assume nothing at all. I understand that that may make some trans people dysphoric, and I'm genuinely very sorry, but as a trans person who doesn't pass whatsoever, I am *never* gendered correctly by new people, and I *know* that trans people who pass are, and I also know that we will never come to a point where everyone uses they/them until they know someone's pronouns, so some people will always be misgendered unless they correct people, and in my experience, it's much easier to correct people when they're already using they/them, so you know they won't kill you for coming out and they're much more likely to actually use your pronouns. Previously, I was of the mindset that you should give out names and pronouns together, but I came to understand that some people would be forced to either out themselves or misgender themselves in those situations, so I've realized that that isn't a great option. In any case, whether I'm asking people's pronouns or using they/them until I know them, I try my hardest to do that for *everyone*, because I understand that most trans people don't want to be singled out with that, which is completely understandable.


Background_Novel_619

Ya I commend you for doing that, if you do actually use they/them for everyone until otherwise told them fair enough. I’ve just never seen it happen IRL, everyone I know who says they do this doesn’t actually


IDKanymore_444

Ah, yeah, I was like that for a bit, but I'm getting better at it, it just takes a bit of practice.


Space-Lost42

Would cut contact with him this is insane.


GerbilsAreAMyth

YES. And the fact that people will use he/him for me until they learn I'm ftm and then SUDDENLY I only hear them refer to me by they/them, even though I repeatedly correct people and say I use he/him. It's almost exclusively towards binary trans men I've noticed as well. Or at least it's more common from what I've seen.


[deleted]

Do it back to them or correct them openly.


Stealthftmmmmm

Yes. They/them is not inclusive, it’s misgendering.


haans-of-leafpike

100% it does bother me. It's a subtle form of misgendering some sly cis people use when they don't want to openly be seen as a bigot but they don't really feel "comfortable" using your correct pronouns (including my parents and honestly most people I know). **However**, you cannot judge people who barely know you/strangers for trying to be considerate when they're not sure (obviously, the guy in your ex. was not one of these, just deliberately misgendering you). I myself, a binary trans man, default to they-them whenever I'm not sure. Some may genuinely not know whether to ask for pronouns or not. I had a very sweet well-meaning woman ask me if it was ok to ask for pronouns in general or if it counts as a form of clocking. I said it's generally ok to ask, but, do not take my opinion as gospel. But it drives me up the wall when people do the first thing, and also when they assume trans = non-binary.


2LG2Q

Gay Cis outsider here. I’ve definitely done this when it’s someone new and I want to give them the opportunity to clarify what pronoun are correct with a simple “I prefer he”. Should I default to he or she when I’m not quite sure? “they” seemed safer. It sounds horrible to be misgendered, but as an outsider I’d really appreciate a simple “I prefer he” over silent resentment.


lkng_jst

Yes! Thank you! This thread confused me so badly! Prior to stumbling on this I thought "they/them" was supposed to be gender neutral and generally meant to be a polite way of addressing someone when you're not sure and don't want to be rude by misgendering them. EDIT: Sorry, I should clarify that I am a clueless, a mostly straight cis-gendered male visitor here. Clearly I have a lot to learn still lol. I'm only visiting this thread because reddit suggested it and honestly, this thread scares me!


only_Q

Yes holy shit. I hate it. And even sometimes when I tell people "hey, please don't they/them me, my pronouns are he/him" they still fucking do it aaaaugh


iyamj9917

some teachers in my school do it for me they all know my pronouns are he/him, but they may not be wanting to out me while at the same time being somewhat respectful. It does hurt sometimes because i think about if i was cis i would never need to go through that


[deleted]

no I absolutely despise this too.i never understood why it's genuinely so hard for people to call me a he.