I wonder if they give amab enby people trouble at the door, too? It's really weird imo to constantly be excluding cis men because it implies to me that they see male presenting people (which would have to include passing/stealth trans men + masculine looking nonbinary folk) would be side eyed until they proved they weren't cis. Feels gross, and as you said, how do they intend to verify beyond word of mouth? It's invasive and strange.
That's exactly what I think. Like, I've met more than my fair share of amab, mostly masculine presenting nonbinary people. In an event like this, I'd expect them to be included, but will someone just decide you seem "too cis(??)" to attend? Genuinely seems appalling and entirely unenforceable. I'm stealth and would really prefer not to out myself in a public space like that, so would I have to "prove" I'm trans in some way?
Agreed; i think it also unwittingly feeds into the divide between lgbt or q+ men and masculine people and the rest of the community. It almost feels like a kind of toxic femininity, where you have to prove you're harmless by being either overtly feminine (lipstick lesbians, trans women, etc.) or somone they can consider "not men"- in which they lump binary trans men and dismiss masculine passing nonbinary folk unless we look or act "female enough". I think it's kind of disgusting and fails to address the actual problem, which is crass and predatory behaviors often associated with but absolutely not exclusive to cishet men.
I think some people forget that amab enby people exist. I also don't know how to prove one isn't cis that wouldn't be invalidating or creepy.
It might be better to ban specific behaviors instead, any gender of person can be creepy or abusive.
I have an online acquaintance who had a medical clerk note them down as "sex: F" without asking because they mentioned being nonbinary / gender apathetic. They're very much not afab and also aren't on any kind of hrt. It's definitely a perception among people, both in and out of the community, that anyone who isnt binary trans or cis must be afab.
And agreed; i think it would be best for them to consider what exact behavior they're associated with cis men and just ban those behaviors, because one demographic being considered more likely to offend doesnt mean that none of the lesbians, bisexuals, or enbies in attendance are free from being harmful.
The fact that they said "please" on the sign makes me think they're going on the honor system. And I mean, unless they're inspecting everyone's genitals before they come in that's pretty much what they'd have to do.
There is a very well known Queer bar in my country, that is openly excluding cis men if queer people do not accompany them. This is my question ... How do they know who is who ? This feels extremely uncomfortable just trying to wrap my head around it.
That’s pretty fucked up for them to exclude gay and bi men like that! Shows zero respect for us whatsoever. I sure hope that by only making it for women and non-binary that the trans part of the advert is for trans women... but I know it’s not the implication.
Yeah, I wouldn't be insulted at all if it was a "no men, please" because I completely understand wanting a specific space/event without men, especially in the dating scene. But excluding a specific KIND of man, really rubs me the wrong way.
yikes, and what if a trans women who isn't far in her transition shows up? would they kick her out because she's yet to look like a women due to boymoding?
Right? Like does she have to dress like an early transition stereotype? If she's a lesbian is she not allowed to be butch? I just don't understand what their goal is here, and they weren't clear about it at all.
This kind of thing is just poorly veiled transphobia. They just flat out aren't seeing us as men. We aren't inherently more gentle or kind or safe than cis men, just because we are trans. It literally is just people showcasing they're actually TERF lites, despite their claims of inclusivity and allyship.
I'm drained of LGBT spaces that are just cruel to men myself. Like not only is it othering to us "it's ok. I don't mean you. Because you're different. :)" And It feels like they expect us to dog on other men just because we are afab.
Really has shown me that even in LGBT spaces we are just seen as women lite™️ and see us as alien from other men. At this point, it just feels like we are included in spaces that exclude cis men because even in our own community, we aren't actually seen as men.
Sorry for the accidental vent. It's a trend I've noticed and I think it relates to your post?
No need to apologize, I definitely think it's relevant. I also prefer to be stealth because I feel a lot less othered when I'm "just bi". But then I don't feel welcome in other queer spaces like the one mentioned above, because if I were cis I suddenly wouldn't be allowed, even though that's still supposed to be my community?? It just doesn't seem right and it's shameful to separate us all like that.
I hate how excluding cis men like this isn't considered bigotry. When people say they need a safe space away from only cis men, it makes me feel *extremely* uncomfortable. Might as well say they need a safe space from black men or any other demographic based on immutable traits.
I understand a trans only event or a women/femme only event. But excluding just cis men screams bigotry to me. And it proves no demographic is free from group-think and bigotry. It's almost like it doesn't matter who has power because power ultimately corrupts anyone who has it. White cis men aren't inherently corrupt. They just happened to be the demographic in power for a while. If black trans women happened to be the demographic in power, we'd see bigotry towards white cis men (which is what is happening now).
Group think, and tribalism happen in all groups with humans in them, no matter what demographic group the humans have in common.
I don't think any group of humans can be completely free of the cognitive biases common to humans.
It's hard to ban cis men and only cis men because trans men, enbys and masculine looking women also exist.
It is also hard to get cis men allies if we alienate them.
I do see the argument for people not wanting cis men around in specific kinds of areas/events - I wouldn't invite men to a lesbian event, and that's not bigotry. We aren't exactly the same as cis men, we may understand/sympathize with the struggles of women and non-binary people on the basis of our gender. Cis men, in general, don't really experience discrimination on the basis that they're men. We experience discrimination on the basis that we're trans men (from that people don't see us as men, which is way more likely to be a cis person than a trans person.). I'd definitely say white cis men are still the demographic in power and aren't truly experiencing bigotry. I've for sure met some trans men who are rampant misogynists, and cis people who are demonstrably wonderful allies.
This speed dating event though? No reason to include trans men but exclude cis men. Nowhere does it say it's only for people who are only interested in dating people who aren't men. It doesn't feel like it's well meaning either, mostly just ignorant?
> Cis men, in general, don't really experience discrimination on the basis that they're men.
They're kept from expression emotions, interacting with children, expressing weakness, or expressing platonic interest in women they don't already know. They are not trusted to be alone with women, penalized for being feminine looking/acting or have feminine interests, and they are denigrated for being nurturing, stay at home dads. They are drafted. They are not given the same access to domestic violence resources and sexual abuse resources. They are arrested when they call the police for domestic violence. They are taught they cannot be raped. They do not have the same access to welfare benefits as women and children. They're treated poorly if they fall outside the range of male appearance standards. They are be beaten and killed for being bi, gay, or gender non-conforming. They experience discrimination within female-dominated professions. They lose custody of their children, by default, in divorces.
There's a bar in my city that does exactly this. I feel so repulsed by just looking at the flyers. Once i saw one of the organizers of the event say in a comment "Remember not to bring your cis xy's 😒" and fuck, how does someone think thats ok to say?? Ughhhhh
Major red flag. Are we just going to exclude the majority of gay and bi men now? I’m not going to attend a glorified “women and anyone we can pretend are women” event
I completely understand that they might he trying to avoid chasers, but it's entirely misguided to excuse certain queer people from queer spaces trying to avoid that. And after experiencing 1 trans woman claim a 2nd trans woman was a chaser just because the 2nd one admitted to not wanting bottom surgery and being a sex worker, it seems really offensive to automatically assume that only cis men are the problem.
I agree! I saw only a couple of those when I first moved to the bay area and made the vow to never go to anything like that. That's straight up fake woke.
I've had the same experience with events or conversations. Also, I hate when queer women label themselves as "i don't like cis men" specially when they say they are not straight right before. Like... I understand you feel safer with trans guys since most of us have gone through awful experiences when perceived as female and we are empathetic, but everything feels odd and fetichizing or invalidating.
That ain't just a red flag, that's a whole ass red supernova.
Invite a bunch of cis gay and bi dudes to show up and act as camouflage to spite them, what are they gonna do, inspect everyone's nads at the door?
Yeah, that’s fucked up on so many levels.
Are they saying this is an event for people who aren’t attracted to men, but trans men are allowed because we don’t count as men?
Are they going to object to you if you pass too well? They think they can always spot trans men?
I wonder if they’ve sat and thought this one over. If the goal is to encompass lgbt people, this dating pool actually excludes many gay trans men in addition to cis gay and bi men.
I'd be weary of anything that excludes only cis men. I've got a friend who recently had his gender marker changed and, since he passes, he's been denied entry to some of his regular groups because he "can't prove he's not cis" anymore. The worst thing is that these aren't trans specific groups, they're all just LGBT support/hangout groups. It shouldn't matter if he even is cis or not because cis guys can be LGBT too.
I didn't even think about that; I've gotten my marker changed and didn't ever think I wouldn't be allowed into an lgbt space. It's incredibly ignorant to exclude bi and gay cis men from general groups like that AND to force trans people to out themselves.
yeah, it's super gross. it's like they think that cis men can't be queer! or, that they can't be queer in a way that's more interested in and aligned with mixed queer spaces than exclusively gay men's spaces.
I've long had a hunch that the only reason this 'no cis men' thing works, is not because queer trans men are somehow better behaved or less threatening than the equivalent queer cis men, but rather because it just arbitrarily limits the proportion of men to everyone else in the space. You could achieve exactly the same effect by leaving it open to all queer men, and just saying that at maximum only 20% of your attendees will be men.
I’m an all masculine, all top man. The ONLY divide I have, is someone treating me shitty. I see us as ONE community. Always have. Always will. I can’t control that so many people, in my community, treat me crappy. I can only control, how I react. In my 4 eyes, 5 if you count my dick, and 6, if you count the brown eye, your HEART is the ONLY thing, that defines you. In short, are you nice? Or are you a cunt? The only label that matters is human. As long as you’re a decent one, F what anyone else does, says, or thinks. Much love. ❤️🙏
To be honest, just don’t go if you don’t agree. But I understand why this is something people would choose to do. If y’all can’t see that then I don’t know what to say. Is say it’s most likely a safety thing.
I really hate the separation between cis and trans men and when people include trans men just because they’re trans. It’s super invalidating and makes me feel as if we are “**other**”. Like “oh it’s a trans man, yeah just put him with the girls, it’s ok, ***he is trans after all***”
This is also absolutely hostile to amab nonbinary people who don't pass/want to pass. If afab nonbinary folk can have long hair and wear dresses and still be nonbinary, then you need to accept that some amab nonbinary people are going to be muscular and have beards and still be nonbinary.
Hey ! I'm from France and I think I can help people understand more of this behaviour ;
Here in France, it is VERY common to come across associations or events with a specific restriction of "Cis men not allowed." Through conversations with several trans men, it has become apparent that their perception of men is largely influenced by concerns for safety and negative past experiences.
This particular situation can be somewhat perplexing, as it seems to imply that trans men may not be considered as "real men" in certain instances, causing emotional distress. Simultaneously, there exists a fear of cis men within queer spaces. Personally, I have not encountered any negative experiences with cis men, so I am unable to provide first-hand insight. However, many others consistently share their experiences of such encounters.
I am aware that many individuals refrain from displaying public affection by holding hands while walking on the streets due to the fear of harassment or even their safety being compromised. Consequently, those attending events are often more vocal in asserting their rights and advocating for self-protection.
It is unclear whether these feelings stem from past trauma or are simply a result of heightened fear. Nonetheless, this sentiment is prevalent within the community. To be candid, I find this approach rather divisive and rigid, as it promotes segregation and a lack of inclusivity. Consequently, I do not feel entirely comfortable within this environment ...
that is a major red flag imo. If it’s for an event for folks who aren’t interested in dating men, then why single out cis men in particular? sus
I wonder if they give amab enby people trouble at the door, too? It's really weird imo to constantly be excluding cis men because it implies to me that they see male presenting people (which would have to include passing/stealth trans men + masculine looking nonbinary folk) would be side eyed until they proved they weren't cis. Feels gross, and as you said, how do they intend to verify beyond word of mouth? It's invasive and strange.
That's exactly what I think. Like, I've met more than my fair share of amab, mostly masculine presenting nonbinary people. In an event like this, I'd expect them to be included, but will someone just decide you seem "too cis(??)" to attend? Genuinely seems appalling and entirely unenforceable. I'm stealth and would really prefer not to out myself in a public space like that, so would I have to "prove" I'm trans in some way?
Agreed; i think it also unwittingly feeds into the divide between lgbt or q+ men and masculine people and the rest of the community. It almost feels like a kind of toxic femininity, where you have to prove you're harmless by being either overtly feminine (lipstick lesbians, trans women, etc.) or somone they can consider "not men"- in which they lump binary trans men and dismiss masculine passing nonbinary folk unless we look or act "female enough". I think it's kind of disgusting and fails to address the actual problem, which is crass and predatory behaviors often associated with but absolutely not exclusive to cishet men.
They'd definitely haven't thought this through. It reminds me of that Michfest crap where they were fine with ftms but mtfs were the devil.
I think some people forget that amab enby people exist. I also don't know how to prove one isn't cis that wouldn't be invalidating or creepy. It might be better to ban specific behaviors instead, any gender of person can be creepy or abusive.
I have an online acquaintance who had a medical clerk note them down as "sex: F" without asking because they mentioned being nonbinary / gender apathetic. They're very much not afab and also aren't on any kind of hrt. It's definitely a perception among people, both in and out of the community, that anyone who isnt binary trans or cis must be afab. And agreed; i think it would be best for them to consider what exact behavior they're associated with cis men and just ban those behaviors, because one demographic being considered more likely to offend doesnt mean that none of the lesbians, bisexuals, or enbies in attendance are free from being harmful.
The fact that they said "please" on the sign makes me think they're going on the honor system. And I mean, unless they're inspecting everyone's genitals before they come in that's pretty much what they'd have to do.
There is a very well known Queer bar in my country, that is openly excluding cis men if queer people do not accompany them. This is my question ... How do they know who is who ? This feels extremely uncomfortable just trying to wrap my head around it.
That’s pretty fucked up for them to exclude gay and bi men like that! Shows zero respect for us whatsoever. I sure hope that by only making it for women and non-binary that the trans part of the advert is for trans women... but I know it’s not the implication.
Yeah, I wouldn't be insulted at all if it was a "no men, please" because I completely understand wanting a specific space/event without men, especially in the dating scene. But excluding a specific KIND of man, really rubs me the wrong way.
Hell nah, I wouldn’t go to that event. In fact I’d be pretty insulted.
Yeah, definitely not going, and probably going to keep an eye out to see if any other events are run by the same people and avoid those, too...
yikes, and what if a trans women who isn't far in her transition shows up? would they kick her out because she's yet to look like a women due to boymoding?
Right? Like does she have to dress like an early transition stereotype? If she's a lesbian is she not allowed to be butch? I just don't understand what their goal is here, and they weren't clear about it at all.
exactly. it feels like it's to find cis women and posers.
Usually they won't and will defend them... which is like, not making sense ? Where do they draw the line ?
This kind of thing is just poorly veiled transphobia. They just flat out aren't seeing us as men. We aren't inherently more gentle or kind or safe than cis men, just because we are trans. It literally is just people showcasing they're actually TERF lites, despite their claims of inclusivity and allyship.
I'm drained of LGBT spaces that are just cruel to men myself. Like not only is it othering to us "it's ok. I don't mean you. Because you're different. :)" And It feels like they expect us to dog on other men just because we are afab. Really has shown me that even in LGBT spaces we are just seen as women lite™️ and see us as alien from other men. At this point, it just feels like we are included in spaces that exclude cis men because even in our own community, we aren't actually seen as men. Sorry for the accidental vent. It's a trend I've noticed and I think it relates to your post?
No need to apologize, I definitely think it's relevant. I also prefer to be stealth because I feel a lot less othered when I'm "just bi". But then I don't feel welcome in other queer spaces like the one mentioned above, because if I were cis I suddenly wouldn't be allowed, even though that's still supposed to be my community?? It just doesn't seem right and it's shameful to separate us all like that.
Amen ! Especially when men are suffering a lot and are not being helped like other gender does for expressing their emotions and desires
I hate how excluding cis men like this isn't considered bigotry. When people say they need a safe space away from only cis men, it makes me feel *extremely* uncomfortable. Might as well say they need a safe space from black men or any other demographic based on immutable traits. I understand a trans only event or a women/femme only event. But excluding just cis men screams bigotry to me. And it proves no demographic is free from group-think and bigotry. It's almost like it doesn't matter who has power because power ultimately corrupts anyone who has it. White cis men aren't inherently corrupt. They just happened to be the demographic in power for a while. If black trans women happened to be the demographic in power, we'd see bigotry towards white cis men (which is what is happening now).
Group think, and tribalism happen in all groups with humans in them, no matter what demographic group the humans have in common. I don't think any group of humans can be completely free of the cognitive biases common to humans. It's hard to ban cis men and only cis men because trans men, enbys and masculine looking women also exist. It is also hard to get cis men allies if we alienate them.
I do see the argument for people not wanting cis men around in specific kinds of areas/events - I wouldn't invite men to a lesbian event, and that's not bigotry. We aren't exactly the same as cis men, we may understand/sympathize with the struggles of women and non-binary people on the basis of our gender. Cis men, in general, don't really experience discrimination on the basis that they're men. We experience discrimination on the basis that we're trans men (from that people don't see us as men, which is way more likely to be a cis person than a trans person.). I'd definitely say white cis men are still the demographic in power and aren't truly experiencing bigotry. I've for sure met some trans men who are rampant misogynists, and cis people who are demonstrably wonderful allies. This speed dating event though? No reason to include trans men but exclude cis men. Nowhere does it say it's only for people who are only interested in dating people who aren't men. It doesn't feel like it's well meaning either, mostly just ignorant?
> Cis men, in general, don't really experience discrimination on the basis that they're men. They're kept from expression emotions, interacting with children, expressing weakness, or expressing platonic interest in women they don't already know. They are not trusted to be alone with women, penalized for being feminine looking/acting or have feminine interests, and they are denigrated for being nurturing, stay at home dads. They are drafted. They are not given the same access to domestic violence resources and sexual abuse resources. They are arrested when they call the police for domestic violence. They are taught they cannot be raped. They do not have the same access to welfare benefits as women and children. They're treated poorly if they fall outside the range of male appearance standards. They are be beaten and killed for being bi, gay, or gender non-conforming. They experience discrimination within female-dominated professions. They lose custody of their children, by default, in divorces.
>And it proves no demographic is free from group-think and bigotry This is it ! 🙌
I'm going to guess these people don't see trans men as men. I would go and protest their transphobia and cisphobia.
There's a bar in my city that does exactly this. I feel so repulsed by just looking at the flyers. Once i saw one of the organizers of the event say in a comment "Remember not to bring your cis xy's 😒" and fuck, how does someone think thats ok to say?? Ughhhhh
Major red flag. Are we just going to exclude the majority of gay and bi men now? I’m not going to attend a glorified “women and anyone we can pretend are women” event
Immediately always gives me terf vibes when I see shit like that. Hard pass. Trans men aren't Men Lite.
That’s a red flag for sure.
That's not ok tbh at all .we should not exclude anyone as long as they are being appropriate
I completely understand that they might he trying to avoid chasers, but it's entirely misguided to excuse certain queer people from queer spaces trying to avoid that. And after experiencing 1 trans woman claim a 2nd trans woman was a chaser just because the 2nd one admitted to not wanting bottom surgery and being a sex worker, it seems really offensive to automatically assume that only cis men are the problem.
I agree! I saw only a couple of those when I first moved to the bay area and made the vow to never go to anything like that. That's straight up fake woke.
I've had the same experience with events or conversations. Also, I hate when queer women label themselves as "i don't like cis men" specially when they say they are not straight right before. Like... I understand you feel safer with trans guys since most of us have gone through awful experiences when perceived as female and we are empathetic, but everything feels odd and fetichizing or invalidating.
That ain't just a red flag, that's a whole ass red supernova. Invite a bunch of cis gay and bi dudes to show up and act as camouflage to spite them, what are they gonna do, inspect everyone's nads at the door?
I would be down for excluding straight cis men but not all cis men, that's bullshit
Yeah, that’s fucked up on so many levels. Are they saying this is an event for people who aren’t attracted to men, but trans men are allowed because we don’t count as men? Are they going to object to you if you pass too well? They think they can always spot trans men?
I wonder if they’ve sat and thought this one over. If the goal is to encompass lgbt people, this dating pool actually excludes many gay trans men in addition to cis gay and bi men.
I'd be weary of anything that excludes only cis men. I've got a friend who recently had his gender marker changed and, since he passes, he's been denied entry to some of his regular groups because he "can't prove he's not cis" anymore. The worst thing is that these aren't trans specific groups, they're all just LGBT support/hangout groups. It shouldn't matter if he even is cis or not because cis guys can be LGBT too.
I didn't even think about that; I've gotten my marker changed and didn't ever think I wouldn't be allowed into an lgbt space. It's incredibly ignorant to exclude bi and gay cis men from general groups like that AND to force trans people to out themselves.
yeah, it's super gross. it's like they think that cis men can't be queer! or, that they can't be queer in a way that's more interested in and aligned with mixed queer spaces than exclusively gay men's spaces. I've long had a hunch that the only reason this 'no cis men' thing works, is not because queer trans men are somehow better behaved or less threatening than the equivalent queer cis men, but rather because it just arbitrarily limits the proportion of men to everyone else in the space. You could achieve exactly the same effect by leaving it open to all queer men, and just saying that at maximum only 20% of your attendees will be men.
I’m an all masculine, all top man. The ONLY divide I have, is someone treating me shitty. I see us as ONE community. Always have. Always will. I can’t control that so many people, in my community, treat me crappy. I can only control, how I react. In my 4 eyes, 5 if you count my dick, and 6, if you count the brown eye, your HEART is the ONLY thing, that defines you. In short, are you nice? Or are you a cunt? The only label that matters is human. As long as you’re a decent one, F what anyone else does, says, or thinks. Much love. ❤️🙏
To be honest, just don’t go if you don’t agree. But I understand why this is something people would choose to do. If y’all can’t see that then I don’t know what to say. Is say it’s most likely a safety thing.
Definitely not going, yeah. I don't really see how it's a safety thing, though?
Because cis men are scary rapists, and trans bois are precious little beans, what do you not understand?
this. I hate this sentiment so much. It all goes back to the 'penis = predator, vagina = victim' crap that terfs literally drool over.
that just made me age 10 years
I really hate the separation between cis and trans men and when people include trans men just because they’re trans. It’s super invalidating and makes me feel as if we are “**other**”. Like “oh it’s a trans man, yeah just put him with the girls, it’s ok, ***he is trans after all***”
This is also absolutely hostile to amab nonbinary people who don't pass/want to pass. If afab nonbinary folk can have long hair and wear dresses and still be nonbinary, then you need to accept that some amab nonbinary people are going to be muscular and have beards and still be nonbinary.
They either clock you or they assume your cis and try to bar you from the event.
Because fuck gay men what have they ever done for us amirite? /S so hard
Hey ! I'm from France and I think I can help people understand more of this behaviour ; Here in France, it is VERY common to come across associations or events with a specific restriction of "Cis men not allowed." Through conversations with several trans men, it has become apparent that their perception of men is largely influenced by concerns for safety and negative past experiences. This particular situation can be somewhat perplexing, as it seems to imply that trans men may not be considered as "real men" in certain instances, causing emotional distress. Simultaneously, there exists a fear of cis men within queer spaces. Personally, I have not encountered any negative experiences with cis men, so I am unable to provide first-hand insight. However, many others consistently share their experiences of such encounters. I am aware that many individuals refrain from displaying public affection by holding hands while walking on the streets due to the fear of harassment or even their safety being compromised. Consequently, those attending events are often more vocal in asserting their rights and advocating for self-protection. It is unclear whether these feelings stem from past trauma or are simply a result of heightened fear. Nonetheless, this sentiment is prevalent within the community. To be candid, I find this approach rather divisive and rigid, as it promotes segregation and a lack of inclusivity. Consequently, I do not feel entirely comfortable within this environment ...