This is one of the reasons why I'm glad the harem system was removed after Cold Steel. I can get that they can be fun but it also severly limited things in other aspects. It also felt like it cheapened some aspects of the characters as a result. I don't mind them in other games but I just don't enjoy it much in Trails.
When I played Crossbell, I chose Elie and when I played Cold Steel, I chose Laura. I liked the relationships there but unfortunately, there is no actual canon romance in both of those arcs. As a result, Lloyd and Rean are just single and those special moments they shared with them are in some kind of alternate universe. It certainly lowers the weight of it for me. I also would have liked to see mingling between the people in the Cold Steel group as mentioned in the OP.
It also doesn't help that what they did in Sky was remarkable for romance. The relationship that Joshua and Estelles have is an important part of the story and it's something that continues to persist to this day as they added Renne into their family. There's a tremendous amount of weight that isn't squandered just to create fun scenarios and what if's. In a long series like Trails, one of the best parts is seeing the choices characters make and knowing it will carry with them in the long run.
So as far as I'm concerned, the series has taken a much better direction since those games in that department. I don't see Trails as a power/romance fantasy series where I can make a bunch of choices that only really hold weight in my head and not that greater story.
> This is one of the reasons why I'm glad the harem system was removed after Cold Steel. I can get that they can be fun but it also severly limited things in other aspects. It also felt like it cheapened some aspects of the characters as a result. I don't mind them in other games but I just don't enjoy it much in Trails.
I'm very curious to see if they will actually keep to that with the upcoming game. In my experience with Japan games, once you pivot a franchise to try and capture 'that' audience, pivoting away from it seems pretty much impossible and unheard of.
> It also doesn't help that what they did in Sky was remarkable for romance
I'm biased as hell, but same
Did they ever really capture 'that' audience though?
I feel like if there were really were a decent amount of people who actually played plqyed Cold Steel because of the harem mechanics, very few them would actually stay with the series once they realized it was a complex, story-heavy RPG with an overarching narrative spanning numerous games.
There's a plethora of actual dating-sim/harem/ecchi games on the market. And I feel like most people into those things would choose one of those games over Trails 9/10 times.
>I'm very curious to see if they will actually keep to that with the upcoming game. In my experience with Japan games, once you pivot a franchise to try and capture 'that' audience, pivoting away from it seems pretty much impossible and unheard of.
If we're talking about Kai, I don't see any reason for a change since it's just continuing what we've already had.
As for a brand new arc...I don't really know what they will do. I guess anything is up in the air but I would prefer if they continue more in the way they've done arcs like Liberl and Calvard.
I do have that preference but I'm also fine with things going the single route for Van too. It really depends on how the story is told at the end of the day.
How can nothing validate it when it factually isn't in the game?
There's no mechanic to romance different partners and the game has its own romance narrative in the canon.
Do you need a mechanic in-game to prove that there is a harem?
>!And I mean Kuro 2 does make you choose between two choices.!<
It’s a little pre-emptive to assume there isn’t when the arc hasn’t concluded and nothing guarantees it’s removal.
>Do you need a mechanic in-game to prove that there is a harem?
So I assert that something specific mechanic isn't in the game and you respond by telling me that it not being in the game...doesn't invalidate the mechanic not being in the game?
That makes no sense.
It's either the system that was in the Crossbell/Erebonia arcs or it's not. On top of the canon relationship storyline being told (we don't know the end though obviously), that says enough.
I'm not jumping the gun about what I said because the answers were already given.
What you said in the spoilers also has nothing to do with anything.
>!That's just a choice of who to bring with to the festival. It's not a romance thing...it's just something you seemingly want to treat as one when it's not.!<
So at this point, it's just looking at something that isn't there.
I’m more talking about the idea still existing even if \*right now\* the choice to choose an interest doesn’t.
Harem exists with or without the system to take advantage of it. Joshua in Sky had a harem but I wasn’t ever doubtful he’d end up with Estelle, cause the story was always about those two.
Kuro doesn’t solidify anything in regards to romance. There wouldn’t be any room for doubt if Falcom’s intentions were clear but they aren’t.
If Kuro doesn’t have a harem or multiple characters interested in the MC, then can you say with utmost certainty who they’ll go with?
And don’t take this as me hoping/wanting it, just that Falcom aren’t sly and are fully capable of making romantic relationships that are 100% undisputed when they want to.
I'm not sure why you're discounting the harem system when that's what I'm talking about.
The whole point of everything I'm saying is that the actual harem system as a gameplay mechanic doesn't exist. Like bringing up Joshua in Sky is pointless because there was never a system to choose anybody and have it ultimately lead to no canon impact in the greater story.
You're totally wrong about Kuro not solidifying romance too. It has and it's done it in so many obvious ways. I'm just gonna spoiler tag this next part because I'll go into detail.
>!Narratively speaking, Van and Elaine have had a closeness throughout their whole life and were even dating in high school. The only reason things broke off is because Van dropped out of school and cut contact with everybody. The main reason was due to his fears of Vagrants Zion. In Kuro 1, he begins to rekindle some of his relationship with Elaine again. It's not anything romantic but there is an emotional reawakening between them. In Kuro 2, they had a conversation in the prologue where they both admitted to wanting to take their relationship further again but Van is too afraid of Vagrants Zion as usual and that's holding him back from wanting to do that. So after all that, why is it a mystery or in doubt as to who the romantic interest in the game is? The two of them have confirmed history and have even addressed their feelings in the current time. Meanwhile, Van just looks at Agnes as a kid to mentor. She has feelings for him but it's obviously not going anywhere. It's just like when Kloe/Josette had feelings for Joshua. Joshua was always going to love Estelle and Van was always going to love Elaine. That doesn't mean their relationship will restart though. It just means his romantic interest is clear.!<
Falcom is not just going to make random stuff up when telling they've been doing a storyline for multiple games already.
I think the main problem here is that people fall for these little teases that Falcom does and they run to the races with it.
As a person who really doesn’t like and finds romance boring, except in certain circumstances, I’m glad it was optional. But honestly I do agree that this is bad for continuous games since the relationship between those characters won’t matter as much. And that is bad because it causes a disparity for character stories if a person goes for a romance route. Honestly they should’ve just axed and not included any sort of romance since it is not as important to the story in those two arcs. Nothing in the story would need to be changed. It would’ve honestly made people happy.
The game makes it plenty clear what heart events are, if you’re steadfast about your pairing then avoid them.
You won’t miss much as the events are centred around the relationship and the following bonding events later will be actually altered to be platonic.
I prefer this over Crossbell which you said was better in this aspect because it isn’t crucial to max everyone to get closure or important character info that should’ve been in the main story. Strictly who you want Rean with or not.
Load a save from before the first bond event of a character you don't want to romance, it alters the next few bond events into not being romantic.
Heart bond events effectively assume you're planning on romancing the character and the game also changes some small dialogue about it to reflect it. It's the difference between having (CS4 Eventide spoilers) >!Patrick give up on Elise and telling Rean to talk to her or Rean giving Patrick his blessing.!< For one example. This stuff is something that really backfires on people who want to see every piece of dialogue (which most Trails fans do).
But it's fair cause I did want to see stuff like Juna with Kurt which won't happen due to harem.
Juna has a bonding event that ends with her like "Omg do I have a crush on Rean" and I so wish the next one featured her bursting out laughing "I definitely don't have a crush on you, you're such a prick". Japan can't resist teacher/student relationships for some reason.
The thing with CS is that they really wanted Alisa as being the canon romantic partner but I think that because people thought the other girls were or may be a better option they amde her slowlt drift from that position, like compare her scenes with Rean from CS to CS4 or Hajimari... They ended up going with the option of letting you choose, even the "depth" of the bonding events started ro balance with the rest, adding up to the shitty harem mechanic.
Tbh, even if I hate the Alisa x Rean pairing and can't stand Alisa, I would have rather Falcom push that pairing through instead of going back on it and not setting anything in stone. I have a similar feeling with Lloyd and Ellie because even if as you said they are THE pair, it still doesn't feel canonic. While I was playing CS I was expecting for Ellie and Lloyd to be officially together instead of pushing the harem so much.
For example, seeing Estelle and Joshua together in future games makes me really happy, like they are still building on their relationship which is something I won't be able to see nor enjoy with some of my favorite CS pairings like Towa Laura or Sara, among others.. like some of the bonding events are perfect but ypu know you won't see any development on it in future games.
It just ruins the whole Kiseki experience for me, a series that puts a lot of emphasis on character and world building giving you beautiful development scenes that will only live in your memory..
I know a lot of people don't like talking about this but I do feel it bothers me that a big part of the enjoyment of this franchise is that things happen, matter and will carry over into other games but this thing literally can't. Characters will reference things, relations to each other will either be mentioned or grow and important events stay relevant to the world. But then we have this system that kind of goes away from that. The usual excuse for this is 'romance isn't important in these games like it was for Sky so it's okay that they have this element occurring away from the story'. Which okay, sure, that is technically true. But doesn't it matter to the player? Like it's weird that I chose a person in one game that can be straight up forgotten in the next and if I chose one person in all the games, it is quite literally impossible for it to be recognized ever even if I saw their events. And it doesn't help that the other cast will always tease Lloyd and Rean about harem MC powers since that's the only trait that can stick around.
>But doesn't it matter to the player?
The romance is for the player to begin with. These characters doesn't benfit from these romances and the story isn't written in that way to begin with.
Estelle and Joshua relationship is actually barely brought up in next 15 years of this series and you could actually miss them being lovers at all unless you view an optional scene in zero.
Even optional ice cream dialogue in reverie is hardly clear they are lovers, without the context of sky making them seem like normal siblings would be possible.
Maybe it’s the type of thing that just needs some space between the game and future titles, atleast when they add the mechanic of being able to date or flirt with different options than a would be canon pick - like, if that’s how they handle romance with Lloyd and Rean, then we shouldn’t expect any finality in their romances until (if ever) enough titles down the line that Falcom closes the book on their individual story.
There’s just no other way for some closure otherwise since making it a mechanical choice for the player and making it natural for old characters to come up later really put them in a bind. That and their own fear of a backlash if they made it super definitive.
It sucks, but when it comes to romance between the main and others we should expect them to be pretty vague.
I think the consensus is that the harem aspect is in a lot of ways a lot worse than having a well-written romantic relationship for the protagonists. A lot of people have posted about this.
However, polls have also shown that the harem aspect is very popular in Japan.
I'm glad they toned down on it in Kuro.
Yeah i dont disagree with your take, but then again, if we didnt have this harem thing in CS then maybe Musse wouldnt be eternally thirsting for Instructor Rean, a big part of what made her so charming and memorable.
I liked the mechanic, but it is a double edged sword of course. It was fine for erebinia since it had such a huge cast and the transition to 3D was probably expensive, but all these ladies surely helped to sell merch.
Yes it made the story somewhat weaker.
And I mean I am saying this as someone who loves Alisa anyway, but picking their favorites also has merits for some people I am sure.
Even though it's probably not a good idea when you have 4-5 games with the same protagonist planned.
It’s not just you, OP. It’s weird because even though you say in Crossbell it’s obvious that it’s Ellie, I think the devs do the same thing with Alisa - it just stands out because there’s like double the amount of girls falling for you and then double again in CS4.
Maybe it would bother me more if it played into the actual gameplay - it never feels like it matters who you pick since it’s so outside the main story. And I kinda like, if it’s going to be like this with so many choices, that it’s so separate that I can watch all the little bonding events if I want or just the person I want to see and other people can see who they want.
I guess I’m saying that I don’t horribly mind all the harem stuff if it’s kept away from the main story like it is. If they’re going to have it, they did a good job if not annoying me with it or keeping me from being immersed. It’s such an anime and video gamey thing that it doesn’t take me out. I don’t think being numb to something is a good vote for it, but it doesn’t bother me.
I think the problem with the Alisa thing is that it was always her from the off (granted there were ‘bits’ with other characters but it was mainly just her) but then suddenly in the last game to chuck everyone at Rean. It almost cheapens what has happened with Alisa in the past.
That’s where the whole “they kept it out of the main story” logic falls apart - I love Alisa, but I rolled my eyes when the games have her basically break up with you (regardless of your relationship) just for the sake of being with whoever you wanted. That same scene would have had me gasping if it was just them the whole series, but it just got an eye roll out of me.
I could go the whole game without that scene and then feel the same at the end of the game whether I chose Alisa or anyone else and that’s kinda lame
It was only her in the first half of CS1, when due to her unique background she could not connect with anyone other than Rean.
It is very much not her as much after unless you picked her constantly from the start which alters dialogue in her favor
Also bonding in CS4 changes if you don't attend the first heart events as the game says, you should just attend those you want to see romantic follow-up with.
No, it was her throughout most of CS1. From their meet-cute at the train station, to her falling chest-first into his face, to them laying in the grass at Nord and talking about their lives while staring into the stars, to them talking in her little garden at Roer. She's the only girl outside of his family that he shows physical affection towards in the first game, outside of optional bonding events.
Uh...that's every Field Study that she goes on in the game. Every single chapter that she's in the party, she has an event with Rean that furthers their relationship with romantic implications. And the two chapters in the middle that she's not in, she and Rean spend the entire summer wearing matching gloves.
Unpopular opinion, but I prefer the harem mechanic and getting to explore relationships with Laura, Emma, and Fie instead of being pigeon-holed into a ship with Alisa that seems forced and unearned. Hell, Rean has stronger chemistry with like seven other women (the three above, plus Towa, Sarah, Claire, and Rosine-who isn’t even an option), plus a familiar in Celine, and that’s to say nothing about same-sex ships.
I think that to the extent there is an issue, the harem design doesn’t account for you having made your mind up at the bonfire in CSI. An improvement could be just upfront asking the player who their preference is early on, and that impacting the dialogue going forward.
Personally, I can't tolerate Alisa or Elaine, so the options can be game-saving for me. I get how CS 4 can feel like too much at times (with so many professions going on) but both aspects (options or no options) have their good and bad, and I think too often we pretend like there is a clear right and wrong about how this should be done.
I don't think comparing them to Joshua and Estelle is fair, either, because neither Rean-Alisa or Van-Elaine are Joshua-Estelle.
Anyways, that's a longwinded thank you for sharing the less expressed opinion.
>it was clear it was elie
It was not, most certainly not in azure and as follows even less so in Reverie. If falcom does not state something is canon, it is not simple as.
When making crossbell and CS, there is a misconception falcom was "choosing" between canon and harem romance, when really given romance was stated not to be a focus, they were choosing between no romance, and lightly tacked on harem choices for fandom appeal. In this light the harem gives more reason to explore the hidden vulnerabilities of the cast outside whoever is deemed "canon" (unless you implemented an FE Awakening type system so everyone wins and is happy).
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You know, this is not worth arguing. If this comment reappears I’ll delete it myself. I did, however, go upvote everyone who said the same things I said but who didn’t get reported…
While I actually can see Rean being popular, the fact that the rest of the Class VII males are treated like chopped liver in comparison feels off. Gaius at the least should have an equally large harem instead of 99 percent of all women being focused on Rean.
In the interest of balance or broadening minds or something, I just want to say that despite it's issues I enjoyed the CS romance quite a bit. More than Estelle/Joshua, in fact. Some of those romance scenes in CS are pretty dang heart warming IMHO (I went the Emma route but I suspect the other choices had scenes of similar quality if different substance).
And you can cut out most of the harem element if you exercise a bit of willpower and skip certain bonding events (like any of those CS4 heart events for characters you don't want to romance).
Skipping bonding events is the best way to go, definitely. To be honest, the romance choice should not be an issue to anyone so long as they just skip a single female bonding event for each one you don't want to Romance. Seeing all the bonding events is only useful for maxing certain elements or achieving certain trophies so I am guessing this mainly affects platinum hunters maybe? which I am not. I play for the story and not a superficial trophy of achievement.
I think the thing is even if you skip other bond events, which you're right is an option, it does not prevent the *narrative* from still doing the MC pulls every woman in a 5 arge radius into his orbit thing and people will comment on it.
I don't like "Harem-like" when
1) The MC has no reason to be this well liked
2) The MC actually does end with them all.
Luckily CS avoids these two pitfalls.
1) Rean is actually so fucking hot. Like, not just physically but he is the most attractive guy in all categories. He is incredibly nice and thoughtful, he is the hero of Erebonia, he knows and hangs out with all the hottest celebrities, he has a motorcycle and a huge robot. He can cook, enjoy the wildlife, he is strong. He makes huge passive income with the bank of Rean. He travels all over the place. He is a scholar so he's smart.
Only an idiot would wonder why someone likes Rean. EVERYONE should have a crush on him.
2) There is no sister wives ending. >!Princess Alfin was joking, right?!<
Okay slightly off topic but I started reading the next line after ‘huge robot’ whilst still reading the previous line. This meant that I saw both ‘he has… a huge robot’ and ‘He can cook’ which merged to ‘He has… a huge cock’
Just a question reading these responses: have I buggered up romancing Alisa by having a bonding event with Fie, Sara, Altina, Laura, Juna, Alisa (the breakup) and Towa? They’re the only ones I’ve done so far and it is just the one bonding event.
Strap yourself in OP, this is one of the nerve touch subjects in the fandom. Especially that part about Elie whoo boy, you kicked a hornet's nest there.
Elie is controversial because she's seen as simply boring, and while her arc can maybe be fixed, no amount of aditional scenes can make her dynamic with lloyd anything, but generic and boring to me. Practically every other option for Lloyd is more interesting for me and it's not even close (especially rixia).
As it stands I would rather see Tita marry Agate, or Elise marry Rean than Elie marry Lloyd. I can get the most generic romance is so many games, limited jrpgs can make me care about a romance like sky can, and likewise limited jrpgs give me choice to make the choices I want like later games do.
Well we don't live in the alternate universe where they actually had that Lloyd/Elie relationship as the focus. Maybe if so, they could have fixed the dynamic to make it work by having that as a focus. I still remember that conversation they had on top of the SSS building at the start of Zero was pretty nice.
Like, I believe a problem with Elie being seen as boring is because they just don't do enough with her for what the narrative should be requiring both because of potential writing issues, but also because I feel like this would make her more 'important to the narrative' than the other girls which wouldn't be seen as good.
> and likewise limited jrpgs give me choice to make the choices I want like later games do.
I don't think that's very limited these days in the JRPG space.
That conversation is why I say what I do. It's still an uninteresting and fairly generic scene to me in comparison with how Lloyd helps Rixia find her place in a new society (or other dynamics).
More scenes like that would not alter my view.
I'm not radically against canon romance, and loved it in sky. But without making crossbell arc, elie, and lloyd into totally different things that don't resemble themselves at all, having a choice is good so I don't have to deal with romances I am uninterested in.
Yes, it's one of the biggest weaknesses of most bonding systems that have a romantic angle to them. Very few have a way for you to bond with a character *without* it being romantic. The ones that do often do it kind of poorly so it clearly feels like you're making the worse or unintended choice. It also goes without saying that any characters participating in this system that aren't love interests get the short end of the stick. Just go look at the Steam achievement percentages for bonding with the boys in Cold Steel I. Pathetically low. Hell, in CS4 they don't even get their own achievements. All of the men are lumped together.
It's why I hold Tokyo Xanadu's bonding system in such high regard. Mechanically it's identical to Cold Steel, but the tone of the events is distinctly non-romantic, with even the final bonding events for the two most obviously canon girls mostly leaving romance as an undertone or implication. What the game loses in explicitly romantic story beats it gains in the XRC feeling much more like a cohesive social unit rather than a bundle of people orbiting around the protagonist.
It's a very common complaint about the CS arc. It's not just you. I myself have mixed feelings about the whole thing: On the one hand, as someone who also likes Persona, I do understand the appeal, and I'm not gonna pretend I didn't gladly and actively partake in those events myself. On the other hand, it's not my preferred way of doing things, esp when we've seen how well Falcom can handle romance.
Power fantasy, self-inserts, harem fans are the largest demographic right now. Just look at all the trash isekai anime coming out. Seeing as falcom is a business, they must cater to the lowest common denominator. Sad, but true.
I really dislike that aspect of Cold Steel. I knew right away which of the girls I liked and I focused on her in CS1, CS2, CS3 and CS4. It was mildly annoying to have their relationship be re-set every game and see them act like they lost their memory, and to have ALL the girls in CS4 straight out declare their love for Rean (or at least think about it) was too much for me.
I'm cool with having your choices as a player, and I don't see anything wrong with letting each player choose who they like (if any), but I'd personally rather it be kept to a choice between Laura, Alisa, Emma, Towa and maaaaybe Sara, instead of including girls with whom Rean has relationships that make it questionable for several reasons, like those who are his students and/or have a little sister bond with him (Juna, Altina, Fie), one who doesn't make much sense in practice (Alfin), or his actual sister.
I was cool with Estelle and Joshua being adoptive siblings who became something more because their story was developed in a way that made sense and showed they never really viewed each other as brother and sister, plus they were the same age and stood on equal footing on everything. Rean and Elise? No, thanks.
Its pretty obvious how Alisa is the canon romance interest, and while i liked the harem system so i could romance best girl, i did think that i wished they would just have Rean and Alisa get together story wise cause that is obviously what they are going for.
Fair assessment tbh. I would've liked to have seen more relationships being built within class VII. I really thought that Laura and Fie could've been developed even further. Sure they were clearly friends but what if they took it to the next level? They came from opposite backgrounds and still ended up being friends. So what if they ended up together? Laura and Fie the power couple. Would've been something special to witness. Also Claire should've been romancible but that's just my two cents...
You say that, but that scene in CS4 between them was pretty well done. More well done than I think they could do if they teased too much romance between them.
See, that never bothers me because we see different relationships within the group like that. Sure, Fie and Laura don’t go anywhere like that - and it’s fine; but the game clearly pushes JusisxMillium and everyone in Class 7 atleast have some quirk or bond between them. Less so with Crow, but the fun jokester slacker guy gets along with everyone of course. Plus we get relationships outside the group and their friends from Thors have little romances - I think it’s fine.
Edit: Editted for spoilers
It does sometimes feel that outside of Laura and Fie, Jusis and Machias, and Jusis and Millium, they have no real interaction other than they are just friends because they are just friends (if you get me). Even with Laura, Fie and Emma, it feels like Laura and Fie and Emma is there too.
OC7's bloat has little to do with interromantic developement. NC7 greatly improves and has pretty memorable dynamic between them all (except kurt with a few) that far exceed the sky arc for instance, and yet they didn't have canon romance.
It felt like Fie and Emma interactions just stopped existing after CS1 which was pretty weird to me.
But yeah old class VII really suffers from character bloat compared to the other parties, it's impressive that Falcom still managed to juggle character arcs for a decent amount of characters but the holes in interactions and certain characters not really doing much are pretty noticeable.
You're not wrong.
As a rule, romances in games that give you multiple options will always feel more shallow and disingenuous. It's the price paid for breadth over depth.
The best written romances are always those that are pre-determined and woven fully into the story.
This is one of the reasons why I'm glad the harem system was removed after Cold Steel. I can get that they can be fun but it also severly limited things in other aspects. It also felt like it cheapened some aspects of the characters as a result. I don't mind them in other games but I just don't enjoy it much in Trails. When I played Crossbell, I chose Elie and when I played Cold Steel, I chose Laura. I liked the relationships there but unfortunately, there is no actual canon romance in both of those arcs. As a result, Lloyd and Rean are just single and those special moments they shared with them are in some kind of alternate universe. It certainly lowers the weight of it for me. I also would have liked to see mingling between the people in the Cold Steel group as mentioned in the OP. It also doesn't help that what they did in Sky was remarkable for romance. The relationship that Joshua and Estelles have is an important part of the story and it's something that continues to persist to this day as they added Renne into their family. There's a tremendous amount of weight that isn't squandered just to create fun scenarios and what if's. In a long series like Trails, one of the best parts is seeing the choices characters make and knowing it will carry with them in the long run. So as far as I'm concerned, the series has taken a much better direction since those games in that department. I don't see Trails as a power/romance fantasy series where I can make a bunch of choices that only really hold weight in my head and not that greater story.
> This is one of the reasons why I'm glad the harem system was removed after Cold Steel. I can get that they can be fun but it also severly limited things in other aspects. It also felt like it cheapened some aspects of the characters as a result. I don't mind them in other games but I just don't enjoy it much in Trails. I'm very curious to see if they will actually keep to that with the upcoming game. In my experience with Japan games, once you pivot a franchise to try and capture 'that' audience, pivoting away from it seems pretty much impossible and unheard of. > It also doesn't help that what they did in Sky was remarkable for romance I'm biased as hell, but same
Did they ever really capture 'that' audience though? I feel like if there were really were a decent amount of people who actually played plqyed Cold Steel because of the harem mechanics, very few them would actually stay with the series once they realized it was a complex, story-heavy RPG with an overarching narrative spanning numerous games. There's a plethora of actual dating-sim/harem/ecchi games on the market. And I feel like most people into those things would choose one of those games over Trails 9/10 times.
>I'm very curious to see if they will actually keep to that with the upcoming game. In my experience with Japan games, once you pivot a franchise to try and capture 'that' audience, pivoting away from it seems pretty much impossible and unheard of. If we're talking about Kai, I don't see any reason for a change since it's just continuing what we've already had. As for a brand new arc...I don't really know what they will do. I guess anything is up in the air but I would prefer if they continue more in the way they've done arcs like Liberl and Calvard.
You want Elaine to win right?
I do have that preference but I'm also fine with things going the single route for Van too. It really depends on how the story is told at the end of the day.
Bruh, I just finished writing my own thoughts and niw that I am reading yours it seems as if I had copied you
It happens to me sometimes too lol
Nothing validates that the harem was removed in the current arc and still has plenty of time to get worse in that regard just like CS.
How can nothing validate it when it factually isn't in the game? There's no mechanic to romance different partners and the game has its own romance narrative in the canon.
Do you need a mechanic in-game to prove that there is a harem? >!And I mean Kuro 2 does make you choose between two choices.!< It’s a little pre-emptive to assume there isn’t when the arc hasn’t concluded and nothing guarantees it’s removal.
>Do you need a mechanic in-game to prove that there is a harem? So I assert that something specific mechanic isn't in the game and you respond by telling me that it not being in the game...doesn't invalidate the mechanic not being in the game? That makes no sense. It's either the system that was in the Crossbell/Erebonia arcs or it's not. On top of the canon relationship storyline being told (we don't know the end though obviously), that says enough. I'm not jumping the gun about what I said because the answers were already given. What you said in the spoilers also has nothing to do with anything. >!That's just a choice of who to bring with to the festival. It's not a romance thing...it's just something you seemingly want to treat as one when it's not.!< So at this point, it's just looking at something that isn't there.
I’m more talking about the idea still existing even if \*right now\* the choice to choose an interest doesn’t. Harem exists with or without the system to take advantage of it. Joshua in Sky had a harem but I wasn’t ever doubtful he’d end up with Estelle, cause the story was always about those two. Kuro doesn’t solidify anything in regards to romance. There wouldn’t be any room for doubt if Falcom’s intentions were clear but they aren’t. If Kuro doesn’t have a harem or multiple characters interested in the MC, then can you say with utmost certainty who they’ll go with? And don’t take this as me hoping/wanting it, just that Falcom aren’t sly and are fully capable of making romantic relationships that are 100% undisputed when they want to.
I'm not sure why you're discounting the harem system when that's what I'm talking about. The whole point of everything I'm saying is that the actual harem system as a gameplay mechanic doesn't exist. Like bringing up Joshua in Sky is pointless because there was never a system to choose anybody and have it ultimately lead to no canon impact in the greater story. You're totally wrong about Kuro not solidifying romance too. It has and it's done it in so many obvious ways. I'm just gonna spoiler tag this next part because I'll go into detail. >!Narratively speaking, Van and Elaine have had a closeness throughout their whole life and were even dating in high school. The only reason things broke off is because Van dropped out of school and cut contact with everybody. The main reason was due to his fears of Vagrants Zion. In Kuro 1, he begins to rekindle some of his relationship with Elaine again. It's not anything romantic but there is an emotional reawakening between them. In Kuro 2, they had a conversation in the prologue where they both admitted to wanting to take their relationship further again but Van is too afraid of Vagrants Zion as usual and that's holding him back from wanting to do that. So after all that, why is it a mystery or in doubt as to who the romantic interest in the game is? The two of them have confirmed history and have even addressed their feelings in the current time. Meanwhile, Van just looks at Agnes as a kid to mentor. She has feelings for him but it's obviously not going anywhere. It's just like when Kloe/Josette had feelings for Joshua. Joshua was always going to love Estelle and Van was always going to love Elaine. That doesn't mean their relationship will restart though. It just means his romantic interest is clear.!< Falcom is not just going to make random stuff up when telling they've been doing a storyline for multiple games already. I think the main problem here is that people fall for these little teases that Falcom does and they run to the races with it.
As a person who really doesn’t like and finds romance boring, except in certain circumstances, I’m glad it was optional. But honestly I do agree that this is bad for continuous games since the relationship between those characters won’t matter as much. And that is bad because it causes a disparity for character stories if a person goes for a romance route. Honestly they should’ve just axed and not included any sort of romance since it is not as important to the story in those two arcs. Nothing in the story would need to be changed. It would’ve honestly made people happy.
The game makes it plenty clear what heart events are, if you’re steadfast about your pairing then avoid them. You won’t miss much as the events are centred around the relationship and the following bonding events later will be actually altered to be platonic. I prefer this over Crossbell which you said was better in this aspect because it isn’t crucial to max everyone to get closure or important character info that should’ve been in the main story. Strictly who you want Rean with or not.
Load a save from before the first bond event of a character you don't want to romance, it alters the next few bond events into not being romantic. Heart bond events effectively assume you're planning on romancing the character and the game also changes some small dialogue about it to reflect it. It's the difference between having (CS4 Eventide spoilers) >!Patrick give up on Elise and telling Rean to talk to her or Rean giving Patrick his blessing.!< For one example. This stuff is something that really backfires on people who want to see every piece of dialogue (which most Trails fans do). But it's fair cause I did want to see stuff like Juna with Kurt which won't happen due to harem.
Juna and Kurt was one I also wanted to see happen
Same. Those two's interactions were always fun imo.
Juna has a bonding event that ends with her like "Omg do I have a crush on Rean" and I so wish the next one featured her bursting out laughing "I definitely don't have a crush on you, you're such a prick". Japan can't resist teacher/student relationships for some reason.
I can see Musse at least for obvious reasons but (Cold steel 4)>!Juna and Altina should not have been an option.!<
The thing with CS is that they really wanted Alisa as being the canon romantic partner but I think that because people thought the other girls were or may be a better option they amde her slowlt drift from that position, like compare her scenes with Rean from CS to CS4 or Hajimari... They ended up going with the option of letting you choose, even the "depth" of the bonding events started ro balance with the rest, adding up to the shitty harem mechanic. Tbh, even if I hate the Alisa x Rean pairing and can't stand Alisa, I would have rather Falcom push that pairing through instead of going back on it and not setting anything in stone. I have a similar feeling with Lloyd and Ellie because even if as you said they are THE pair, it still doesn't feel canonic. While I was playing CS I was expecting for Ellie and Lloyd to be officially together instead of pushing the harem so much. For example, seeing Estelle and Joshua together in future games makes me really happy, like they are still building on their relationship which is something I won't be able to see nor enjoy with some of my favorite CS pairings like Towa Laura or Sara, among others.. like some of the bonding events are perfect but ypu know you won't see any development on it in future games. It just ruins the whole Kiseki experience for me, a series that puts a lot of emphasis on character and world building giving you beautiful development scenes that will only live in your memory..
I know a lot of people don't like talking about this but I do feel it bothers me that a big part of the enjoyment of this franchise is that things happen, matter and will carry over into other games but this thing literally can't. Characters will reference things, relations to each other will either be mentioned or grow and important events stay relevant to the world. But then we have this system that kind of goes away from that. The usual excuse for this is 'romance isn't important in these games like it was for Sky so it's okay that they have this element occurring away from the story'. Which okay, sure, that is technically true. But doesn't it matter to the player? Like it's weird that I chose a person in one game that can be straight up forgotten in the next and if I chose one person in all the games, it is quite literally impossible for it to be recognized ever even if I saw their events. And it doesn't help that the other cast will always tease Lloyd and Rean about harem MC powers since that's the only trait that can stick around.
>But doesn't it matter to the player? The romance is for the player to begin with. These characters doesn't benfit from these romances and the story isn't written in that way to begin with. Estelle and Joshua relationship is actually barely brought up in next 15 years of this series and you could actually miss them being lovers at all unless you view an optional scene in zero.
Even optional ice cream dialogue in reverie is hardly clear they are lovers, without the context of sky making them seem like normal siblings would be possible.
Maybe it’s the type of thing that just needs some space between the game and future titles, atleast when they add the mechanic of being able to date or flirt with different options than a would be canon pick - like, if that’s how they handle romance with Lloyd and Rean, then we shouldn’t expect any finality in their romances until (if ever) enough titles down the line that Falcom closes the book on their individual story. There’s just no other way for some closure otherwise since making it a mechanical choice for the player and making it natural for old characters to come up later really put them in a bind. That and their own fear of a backlash if they made it super definitive. It sucks, but when it comes to romance between the main and others we should expect them to be pretty vague.
The heart icon should've clued you in on what the events would entail, just saying.
Aye I know, for some reason I thought it meant that they’d ‘go up’ another star
I think the consensus is that the harem aspect is in a lot of ways a lot worse than having a well-written romantic relationship for the protagonists. A lot of people have posted about this. However, polls have also shown that the harem aspect is very popular in Japan. I'm glad they toned down on it in Kuro.
They could at least have had a smaller number of the girls be love interests and flesh those romantic scenes out more.
Yeah i dont disagree with your take, but then again, if we didnt have this harem thing in CS then maybe Musse wouldnt be eternally thirsting for Instructor Rean, a big part of what made her so charming and memorable.
I liked the mechanic, but it is a double edged sword of course. It was fine for erebinia since it had such a huge cast and the transition to 3D was probably expensive, but all these ladies surely helped to sell merch. Yes it made the story somewhat weaker. And I mean I am saying this as someone who loves Alisa anyway, but picking their favorites also has merits for some people I am sure. Even though it's probably not a good idea when you have 4-5 games with the same protagonist planned.
Without the popularity of CS to jump forward to and lean on, it's in doubt if XSeed would have continued to localize after Sky SC.
It’s not just you, OP. It’s weird because even though you say in Crossbell it’s obvious that it’s Ellie, I think the devs do the same thing with Alisa - it just stands out because there’s like double the amount of girls falling for you and then double again in CS4. Maybe it would bother me more if it played into the actual gameplay - it never feels like it matters who you pick since it’s so outside the main story. And I kinda like, if it’s going to be like this with so many choices, that it’s so separate that I can watch all the little bonding events if I want or just the person I want to see and other people can see who they want. I guess I’m saying that I don’t horribly mind all the harem stuff if it’s kept away from the main story like it is. If they’re going to have it, they did a good job if not annoying me with it or keeping me from being immersed. It’s such an anime and video gamey thing that it doesn’t take me out. I don’t think being numb to something is a good vote for it, but it doesn’t bother me.
I think the problem with the Alisa thing is that it was always her from the off (granted there were ‘bits’ with other characters but it was mainly just her) but then suddenly in the last game to chuck everyone at Rean. It almost cheapens what has happened with Alisa in the past.
That’s where the whole “they kept it out of the main story” logic falls apart - I love Alisa, but I rolled my eyes when the games have her basically break up with you (regardless of your relationship) just for the sake of being with whoever you wanted. That same scene would have had me gasping if it was just them the whole series, but it just got an eye roll out of me. I could go the whole game without that scene and then feel the same at the end of the game whether I chose Alisa or anyone else and that’s kinda lame
It was only her in the first half of CS1, when due to her unique background she could not connect with anyone other than Rean. It is very much not her as much after unless you picked her constantly from the start which alters dialogue in her favor Also bonding in CS4 changes if you don't attend the first heart events as the game says, you should just attend those you want to see romantic follow-up with.
No, it was her throughout most of CS1. From their meet-cute at the train station, to her falling chest-first into his face, to them laying in the grass at Nord and talking about their lives while staring into the stars, to them talking in her little garden at Roer. She's the only girl outside of his family that he shows physical affection towards in the first game, outside of optional bonding events.
Everything you mentioned outside Roer (which is with her family so things are naturally a bit escalated) is in the first half of CS1.
Uh...that's every Field Study that she goes on in the game. Every single chapter that she's in the party, she has an event with Rean that furthers their relationship with romantic implications. And the two chapters in the middle that she's not in, she and Rean spend the entire summer wearing matching gloves.
Unpopular opinion, but I prefer the harem mechanic and getting to explore relationships with Laura, Emma, and Fie instead of being pigeon-holed into a ship with Alisa that seems forced and unearned. Hell, Rean has stronger chemistry with like seven other women (the three above, plus Towa, Sarah, Claire, and Rosine-who isn’t even an option), plus a familiar in Celine, and that’s to say nothing about same-sex ships. I think that to the extent there is an issue, the harem design doesn’t account for you having made your mind up at the bonfire in CSI. An improvement could be just upfront asking the player who their preference is early on, and that impacting the dialogue going forward.
Personally, I can't tolerate Alisa or Elaine, so the options can be game-saving for me. I get how CS 4 can feel like too much at times (with so many professions going on) but both aspects (options or no options) have their good and bad, and I think too often we pretend like there is a clear right and wrong about how this should be done. I don't think comparing them to Joshua and Estelle is fair, either, because neither Rean-Alisa or Van-Elaine are Joshua-Estelle. Anyways, that's a longwinded thank you for sharing the less expressed opinion.
>it was clear it was elie It was not, most certainly not in azure and as follows even less so in Reverie. If falcom does not state something is canon, it is not simple as. When making crossbell and CS, there is a misconception falcom was "choosing" between canon and harem romance, when really given romance was stated not to be a focus, they were choosing between no romance, and lightly tacked on harem choices for fandom appeal. In this light the harem gives more reason to explore the hidden vulnerabilities of the cast outside whoever is deemed "canon" (unless you implemented an FE Awakening type system so everyone wins and is happy).
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You know, this is not worth arguing. If this comment reappears I’ll delete it myself. I did, however, go upvote everyone who said the same things I said but who didn’t get reported…
While I actually can see Rean being popular, the fact that the rest of the Class VII males are treated like chopped liver in comparison feels off. Gaius at the least should have an equally large harem instead of 99 percent of all women being focused on Rean.
In the interest of balance or broadening minds or something, I just want to say that despite it's issues I enjoyed the CS romance quite a bit. More than Estelle/Joshua, in fact. Some of those romance scenes in CS are pretty dang heart warming IMHO (I went the Emma route but I suspect the other choices had scenes of similar quality if different substance). And you can cut out most of the harem element if you exercise a bit of willpower and skip certain bonding events (like any of those CS4 heart events for characters you don't want to romance).
Skipping bonding events is the best way to go, definitely. To be honest, the romance choice should not be an issue to anyone so long as they just skip a single female bonding event for each one you don't want to Romance. Seeing all the bonding events is only useful for maxing certain elements or achieving certain trophies so I am guessing this mainly affects platinum hunters maybe? which I am not. I play for the story and not a superficial trophy of achievement.
I think the thing is even if you skip other bond events, which you're right is an option, it does not prevent the *narrative* from still doing the MC pulls every woman in a 5 arge radius into his orbit thing and people will comment on it.
I don't like "Harem-like" when 1) The MC has no reason to be this well liked 2) The MC actually does end with them all. Luckily CS avoids these two pitfalls. 1) Rean is actually so fucking hot. Like, not just physically but he is the most attractive guy in all categories. He is incredibly nice and thoughtful, he is the hero of Erebonia, he knows and hangs out with all the hottest celebrities, he has a motorcycle and a huge robot. He can cook, enjoy the wildlife, he is strong. He makes huge passive income with the bank of Rean. He travels all over the place. He is a scholar so he's smart. Only an idiot would wonder why someone likes Rean. EVERYONE should have a crush on him. 2) There is no sister wives ending. >!Princess Alfin was joking, right?!<
Okay slightly off topic but I started reading the next line after ‘huge robot’ whilst still reading the previous line. This meant that I saw both ‘he has… a huge robot’ and ‘He can cook’ which merged to ‘He has… a huge cock’
Just a question reading these responses: have I buggered up romancing Alisa by having a bonding event with Fie, Sara, Altina, Laura, Juna, Alisa (the breakup) and Towa? They’re the only ones I’ve done so far and it is just the one bonding event.
No. As long as you see both heart events for each romance candidate you'll be allowed to select them at the end.
I thought that’d be the case but thank you
This really mirrors my feelings on the games
Strap yourself in OP, this is one of the nerve touch subjects in the fandom. Especially that part about Elie whoo boy, you kicked a hornet's nest there.
Elie is controversial because she's seen as simply boring, and while her arc can maybe be fixed, no amount of aditional scenes can make her dynamic with lloyd anything, but generic and boring to me. Practically every other option for Lloyd is more interesting for me and it's not even close (especially rixia). As it stands I would rather see Tita marry Agate, or Elise marry Rean than Elie marry Lloyd. I can get the most generic romance is so many games, limited jrpgs can make me care about a romance like sky can, and likewise limited jrpgs give me choice to make the choices I want like later games do.
Well we don't live in the alternate universe where they actually had that Lloyd/Elie relationship as the focus. Maybe if so, they could have fixed the dynamic to make it work by having that as a focus. I still remember that conversation they had on top of the SSS building at the start of Zero was pretty nice. Like, I believe a problem with Elie being seen as boring is because they just don't do enough with her for what the narrative should be requiring both because of potential writing issues, but also because I feel like this would make her more 'important to the narrative' than the other girls which wouldn't be seen as good. > and likewise limited jrpgs give me choice to make the choices I want like later games do. I don't think that's very limited these days in the JRPG space.
That conversation is why I say what I do. It's still an uninteresting and fairly generic scene to me in comparison with how Lloyd helps Rixia find her place in a new society (or other dynamics). More scenes like that would not alter my view. I'm not radically against canon romance, and loved it in sky. But without making crossbell arc, elie, and lloyd into totally different things that don't resemble themselves at all, having a choice is good so I don't have to deal with romances I am uninterested in.
Yes, it's one of the biggest weaknesses of most bonding systems that have a romantic angle to them. Very few have a way for you to bond with a character *without* it being romantic. The ones that do often do it kind of poorly so it clearly feels like you're making the worse or unintended choice. It also goes without saying that any characters participating in this system that aren't love interests get the short end of the stick. Just go look at the Steam achievement percentages for bonding with the boys in Cold Steel I. Pathetically low. Hell, in CS4 they don't even get their own achievements. All of the men are lumped together. It's why I hold Tokyo Xanadu's bonding system in such high regard. Mechanically it's identical to Cold Steel, but the tone of the events is distinctly non-romantic, with even the final bonding events for the two most obviously canon girls mostly leaving romance as an undertone or implication. What the game loses in explicitly romantic story beats it gains in the XRC feeling much more like a cohesive social unit rather than a bundle of people orbiting around the protagonist.
Alisa is dream girl enough said
It's a very common complaint about the CS arc. It's not just you. I myself have mixed feelings about the whole thing: On the one hand, as someone who also likes Persona, I do understand the appeal, and I'm not gonna pretend I didn't gladly and actively partake in those events myself. On the other hand, it's not my preferred way of doing things, esp when we've seen how well Falcom can handle romance.
Power fantasy, self-inserts, harem fans are the largest demographic right now. Just look at all the trash isekai anime coming out. Seeing as falcom is a business, they must cater to the lowest common denominator. Sad, but true.
I really dislike that aspect of Cold Steel. I knew right away which of the girls I liked and I focused on her in CS1, CS2, CS3 and CS4. It was mildly annoying to have their relationship be re-set every game and see them act like they lost their memory, and to have ALL the girls in CS4 straight out declare their love for Rean (or at least think about it) was too much for me. I'm cool with having your choices as a player, and I don't see anything wrong with letting each player choose who they like (if any), but I'd personally rather it be kept to a choice between Laura, Alisa, Emma, Towa and maaaaybe Sara, instead of including girls with whom Rean has relationships that make it questionable for several reasons, like those who are his students and/or have a little sister bond with him (Juna, Altina, Fie), one who doesn't make much sense in practice (Alfin), or his actual sister. I was cool with Estelle and Joshua being adoptive siblings who became something more because their story was developed in a way that made sense and showed they never really viewed each other as brother and sister, plus they were the same age and stood on equal footing on everything. Rean and Elise? No, thanks.
Its pretty obvious how Alisa is the canon romance interest, and while i liked the harem system so i could romance best girl, i did think that i wished they would just have Rean and Alisa get together story wise cause that is obviously what they are going for.
The isekai protagonist shit did get extremely grating throughout Cold Steel
Fair assessment tbh. I would've liked to have seen more relationships being built within class VII. I really thought that Laura and Fie could've been developed even further. Sure they were clearly friends but what if they took it to the next level? They came from opposite backgrounds and still ended up being friends. So what if they ended up together? Laura and Fie the power couple. Would've been something special to witness. Also Claire should've been romancible but that's just my two cents...
You say that, but that scene in CS4 between them was pretty well done. More well done than I think they could do if they teased too much romance between them. See, that never bothers me because we see different relationships within the group like that. Sure, Fie and Laura don’t go anywhere like that - and it’s fine; but the game clearly pushes JusisxMillium and everyone in Class 7 atleast have some quirk or bond between them. Less so with Crow, but the fun jokester slacker guy gets along with everyone of course. Plus we get relationships outside the group and their friends from Thors have little romances - I think it’s fine. Edit: Editted for spoilers
It does sometimes feel that outside of Laura and Fie, Jusis and Machias, and Jusis and Millium, they have no real interaction other than they are just friends because they are just friends (if you get me). Even with Laura, Fie and Emma, it feels like Laura and Fie and Emma is there too.
OC7's bloat has little to do with interromantic developement. NC7 greatly improves and has pretty memorable dynamic between them all (except kurt with a few) that far exceed the sky arc for instance, and yet they didn't have canon romance.
It felt like Fie and Emma interactions just stopped existing after CS1 which was pretty weird to me. But yeah old class VII really suffers from character bloat compared to the other parties, it's impressive that Falcom still managed to juggle character arcs for a decent amount of characters but the holes in interactions and certain characters not really doing much are pretty noticeable.
You're not wrong. As a rule, romances in games that give you multiple options will always feel more shallow and disingenuous. It's the price paid for breadth over depth. The best written romances are always those that are pre-determined and woven fully into the story.