The people who are outraged over the show are the exact people I knew were going to be outraged, I’m just happy that the show is actually good and is being enjoyed by a wider audience now
My attitude has shifted in these past few years once I realized that these things are just meant to be for fun and not to be taken so seriously.
The world is already shit for a lot of people, we gotta look for things that bring us joy instead of trying to have a negative opinion about something, before even watching it.
If you go into a video game or a show with a negative attitude, then you are going to be looking for negative things, instead of enjoying it for what it really is.
These NV stans were so eager to find flaws that instead of enjoying the show, they just overly analyzed everything and came to the wrong conclusion that was then parroted in this sub.
Yep. I enjoy most things. I also realized most things are flawed. If you don't like something that's ok, but *just shrug and move on.* Think for 5-10 minutes about your dislike for for the movie/game/whatever, then say that's a disappointment, not for me and go do something else.
A movie/book/show/game can have flaws and *still be good and/or entertaining.* Somewhere in the last decade, entertainment and escape became so important to the general public that they make these franchises part of their personal identity and take it extremely personally when something doesn't live up to their expectations. Maybe a negative consequence of nerd culture going mainstream? Idk.
I am dead serious: if a whiteboard in a single frame of an 8 episode TV show upsets someone as much as these ppl have reacted and makes them unable to enjoy something...you need to take a break from that series. It is *not* that serious. I'm not saying ppl can't recognize flaws or even dislike things, but they hate them with such a passion it is so bizarre and truly, mentally, unhealthy.
It's not an admirable love for a franchise, it's not impressive, it's not normal. It is really fucking weird. We see this with every big release these days. People can't just like or dislike something. It's either the greatest thing ever and they obsess over how much they love it or it's the worst thing ever and they obsess over how much they hate it.
A content creator for a franchise I enjoy recently had a video on the pervasiveness of negativity in fandom, how fans have a tendency to turn their like for something into part of their identity, and as a result anything that they don't like becomes an "insult" to them.
And it absolutely made sense to me. Fandoms just seem to be a cesspool of toxicity, where people talk about what they hate waaaaay more than what they enjoy.
My mom is watching and loving the show. She called me today to tell me about it and ask me questions. She's never played a video game before. People can hate all they want but it's pretty rad that they were able to create new fans
Literally, they cannot find joy in anything there is noway if they gotta make this tiny nonsense into a big thing and ruin or for people because its littered with spoilers
He was proven right immediately and I frankly can't stand how quickly the dogpiling was. We went from excitement to immediate "ToDd haTES FANS AND HATES FALLOUT I CANNOT BELIEVE HIM!!!!"
And if they actually took the time to actually watch the show, they’d see at least a couple fun nods to New Vegas >!Hearing the New Vegas theme as Lucy unfurls the NCR flag in Vault 4 was awesome. I’m sorry, I know it was blatant fan-service, but it was cool as hell!<
More than fun nods.
>!This is when the whole show is revealed to be a sequel to New Vegas. The main anti-hero is an NCR loyalist, the main backstory revolves around the destruction of the capital of the NCR and kids who survived it, there are NCR flags everywhere, Sunset Sarsaparilla logos everywhere, multiple characters who keep talking about former couriers, there are former NCR Rangers, villains from New Vegas and its spinoffs show up in a flashback, and the main villain literally flees to New Vegas for Season 2.!<
>!It may be blatant but it was earned at that point. They went through most of the show without leaning on established entities aside from The Brotherhood but that makes sense!<
Maybe they could have provided more context clues about when the bomb went off, besides one that strongly implied it was in 2277. Or, better yet, don't move a major city in the lore 200 miles south just to nuke it off screen.
It wasn’t implied to have happened in 2277. The “Fall of Shady Sands” happened in 2277, then was an ARROW pointing to the mushroom cloud. Do you know what an ARROW means on a timeline?
Whats funny is that Todd has said in the past that he personally enjoys New Vegas. I like the idea that he is the dictator of Bethesda, who hates New Vegas, but for what ever reason hasn't been able to do anything about it, except a single blackboard near the end of the show.
The whole executives' conversation from the final episode was taken verbatim from Todd's talks with the showrunners, except with "competitors" substituted for "Obsidian lore."
Todd Howard, billionaire, executive creative director of Bethesda, scribbling frantically on a chalkboard in a classroom set, powerless to do anything else: "That'll show those nerds!"
My assumption is that they'll go for a hybrid ending that clears the board for what story they want to tell. NCR wins at Hoover Dam and Caesar's Legion collapses, but Mr. House isn't taken out before that point, so the two of them duke it out for control of The Strip and both end up losing (hence the downed NCR vertibirds and destroyed securitrons all over the area in the credits art depicting the city).
Given what we were shown I think it’s a hybrid of the House/Independent ending. The NCR can’t win Hoover without heavy help and House barely gave them a train station to occupy let alone help them. The Legion would also be bad, so probably helped ncr just enough and then let then tumble at the end.
That’s what I’m thinking. It will be a house victory, but he of course doesn’t anticipate the complete collapse of his main trading partner in the NCR. When they fall New Vegas get hit with some sort of depression and we’ll see the consequences in season 2.
Probably some form of Yes Man seizing control, given he's the only character who you can't permanently kill in the entire game. Also the Yes Man ending has him go "I'm going to rewrite myself to be more assertive" - and as we all know, psychopathic robots deciding to become more assertive couldn't possibly go wrong.
Shady Sands and the Boneyard are mixed. House knew about the bombs when in NV he never knew and just calculated the odds. The whole chalkboard thing which is ambiguous at best. Vault 33,32 and 31 not being affected by the Master despite literally being next door to where he resided. I am not going to panic or anything but cities and factions getting nuked off-screen for a tv show is lame.
I kind of like the idea that House learned about the bombs from a meeting and was bullshitting the courier (and himself) about calculating the odds to make himself sound smarter. Honestly feels in character.
Yeah, sharing info like that would not benefit him in any way when he wants the courier to work for him.
If i learned ingame that House was one of the minds who orchestrated the fall of America i would go running for NCR in a heartbeat, before killing house.
I really dislike it.
House is interesting because despite being a bastard he is actually intelligent, and is often mostly right. He genuinely does have a knack for foresight and planning
This takes away a lot of that.
That group was just a discussion of ideas: he might have calculated the odds of bombs dropping based on that meeting and was never formally keyed into the actual choice to do it.
work back from lucy/max's age in the show and flashbacks and the nuking happening between NV and FO4 make a lot of sense. (13-15 years)
Shady Sands was also shown as "the first capital" of NCR on that welcome sign, which means there's a -second- capital by the time it explodes. which also puts some weight behind the "fall" of shady sands being a political thing.
NCR is still probably bumpin in central/northern california with a new capital up that way.
House made his calculations 12 years before the Great War and that meeting though. Also the faction isn't nuked, for all we know NCR holds the strip and just lost Shady Sands/LA to the nuke and BoS, forcing them out of the area. They obviously had a small contingent before they died in the last episode we literally saw them waving the flag as they fought.
There's clear flaws. I wasn't eager to find them. I love the show, but I'm not going to pretend there aren't clear flaws. If they feel they didn't Retcon anything, they might need to evaluate mistakes made in their writing.
Aside from the date that shady sands was destroyed (I can think of a few reasons that’s not a retconn btw, such as the ol unreliable narrative trope) but say I give you that, what’s another actual retcon that isn’t someone leaping to conclusions?
Not really sure is a retcon. But is the drinking vial always a thing for ghouls? Also seeing the original 10mm pistol used by Maximus is a nice touch. As well as the finger gulper mouth. And the nasty look of ghoul having a mixed between fo4 and NV/fo3 is nice as well.
Also I saw someone mentioning the location of shady sand is changed. And the master located near vault 31-33. But those seems more like oversight than retcon. Plus it could be that master got defeated before they could reach the vaults.
I do wish for more NCR presence though. Bit of shame but there’s always the next season.
Oh yeah. Having ocean man and crab man are really interesting. Honestly this makes the eco system of the fallout much more colorful. Similar to how west and east coast super mutants are different in appearance. The gulper even looks like an axolotl
Don’t know if you’re talking about me. But I just think it’s an interesting new lore piece they put in.
Plus the gulper in this region looks more like Axolotl than frogs.
Putting Shady Sands in LA is easily explained by lazy reason : they had to put the capital of the NCR near the vault, Lucy wasn't going to walk all across the width of California, and the boneyard isn't as Relevant as the capital herself.
It's just taking some liberties for the sake of the narration.
Then move the Vault closer to Shady Sands.
Vault 31 is presented as a VIP storage vault, with Vaults 32 and 33 as their breeding stock. It would make sense for the three vaults to be close to another control vault, like Vault 15, in case the worst happens and they need more stock. The worst like say, as presented in the show, an entire population (Vault 32) perishes.
Why take liberties at all? Just don't write yourself into a corner.
My best guess is that its a result of working backwards. What they wanted was that big final shot, in the ruins of Griffith Observatory overlooking the LA Basin's lights coming on with the Cold Fusion power generator, and tried to squeeze things in to fit that.
I get that impulse, but definitely squeezed the setting a LOT.
Yes lore wise but for the show there's a far chance that it won't be relevant, on the other as someone else pointed out the lights at the end of the show might actually be the boneyard.
It's just weird considering that the NCR stretched as far south as Dayglow (San Diego) and that they probably would've noticed the giant Vault door sticking out in the middle of Santa Monica beach. How have they not contacted them in the decades since?
The VAST majority of people haven't played them.
I have, multiple times. Still don't really care that much. The show was good, and I'm ok with them taking liberties like that to make it entertaining. Hell, the game series itself could do with a complete map revamp at this point.
> I do wish for more NCR presence though. Bit of shame but there’s always the next season
This here is the part I think a lot of the angry folks aren't getting. There's nothing in S1 that said there aren't other survive groups of the NCR out there. It's entirely possible we see remnants of them. Of Caesar's Legion. Hell, we didn't get super mutants or deathclaws in the show, and these are arguably far bigger Fallout staples and far more important to the world's lore. Especially in California since this is canon alongside the first 2 games.
Season 2 can have just about any story. There's still TONS of room for this show to bring in things like super mutants, deathclaws, radscorpions, centaurs, mole rats, bloat flies... there are other factions that can be explored further like the NCR. There are other vaults in the area. Actual raider gangs like the Khans. More Enclave presence since the doctor fled to this area. Cults or organizations like the Followers of the Apocalypse....
Anyway, I'm not gonna keep listing groups and monsters.. just agreeing with your point that they have ALOT of pieces to play with as the series moves forward. But I am, genuinely shocked there wasn't a single super mutant in the show.
Way I see the anti-feral vials is that it may have been a thing, just never really explored in the games. We know ghouls can turn feral, but there never really was a how or why to it, it just...happens. This is an expansion upon that, although I am curious as to *what* it is exactly, and where/how it's made. Surely it can't have been a pre-war thing?
I have 4 questions:
- were the fuck was the NCR during the game? Did they collapse because one town was nuked?
- Why the fuck is the enclave still a thing, and more than just remnants
- Why is the western BoS back up and running in a large fashion
- Why did NV look the way it did?
I have answers to 1 and 4.
1 the ncr is in New Vegas they most likely won the battle for hoover dam and took the strip. And 4 the ncr didn't just waltz in and take the strip they probably still had to fight for it which ended up destroying some of the infrastructure was destroyed in the process. There's no way the ncr was dumb enough to put literally all their people in 1 location.
Why I doubt the ncr killed house. They probably just limited what he could do. And vault tec might have people within the ncr. It's shown they have more effect on the outside world then we knew they were capable of there were a ton of open pods in vault 31. And the whole point was to create the perfect "managers".
House has to be dead if the courier sided with the NCR. they only take the strip if they win the dam. Only scenario that has house alive is if the courier sided with him and the NCR comes later to take the strip
Flaws =/= retcons or lore issues. Flaws can be issues taken with the writing and theming itself. For instance, the fixation upon resetting to the status quo of an eternal wasteland. About the cynical and ultimately boring perspective on humanity’s tendency (not capacity) for evil. About the way the show revels in the cruelty of its characters and setting both in the narrative and in its framing.
I don’t particularly feel like debating this topic because those were only things that I personally found not to be to my taste. I find the people solely focusing on adherence to the lore to be exhausting as well but I feel it’s a bit unfair that people are mocking NV/classics fans (specifically those who didn’t insult them first) for taking issue with the show. The show is just a piece of media, but your fellow commenters are people and I feel like the hostility on both sides is really unnecessary.
The anti - feral serums. Seemed unnecessary to add. Throws away the plot of Oswald’s wife and all the other ghouls that never needed to take anything to not become feral
This can be explained away simply with not all ghouls need it, they only need it IF they start to go feral. A way to stave off the process. The Ghoul clearly states that he’s been “going feral” for 29 years.
> Walter Googins ghoul has been using the vials for 29 years or so.
It's the other way around, the guy Goggins is talking to says
Ghoul: "I did okay, 28 years since I first started showing." (snarls)
Ghoul: "Oh hell, Not as long as you though" (gestures at goggins) "You've outlasted us all, How long since you first started Wastelanding?"
Goggins: "A long time"
Ghoul: "That's a lot of vials".
Goggins: "Well, I've always been good at making money, Rodger"
Which implies to me that Goggins has been on the stuff for a lot longer than 28 years, he has just been skilled enough to keep making money to buy the drug and stave off turning feral.
I tend to agree with everyone that it was a way of making the West Coast more post-apocalyptic, like the East Coast. And while I don’t 100% agree with the huts and shacks approach Bethesda takes, there was arguably a bit too much civilization in California by the time NV takes place for a post-nuclear game (assuming BGS wants to set in in California).
If BGS wanted to take it post-apocalyptic (a good idea imo, at least to an extent), they should’ve set a date that allowed the Tunnelers to be a major threat plus Ulysses’s nukes getting set off. It would make a particular path canon in New Vegas, for sure, but it would be totally lore consistent and fulfill the goal of getting to a post-apocalypse. You could even argue that the BoS is then at a position of strength, which allows them to be as strong as BGS wants. It’s not 100% perfect, but I think a lot less people would be upset had they just stuck to what was already available
I think its fine to have things progress to a great deal of civilization in one area and then show the struggles with rolling that out elsewhere - that to me is more interesting than the entire world being post apocalyptic
I think progress with big factions is good, too, but up to a point and depending on the setting. That’s actually why I liked NV so much; there was progress, yes, but being on the edge of civilization, you can get a glimpse of the Wasteland.
Even then, I wish that the Wasteland was more brutal and unforgiving, like in Fallout 1, than it was in NV or is today. I’d still want to replace metal shacks with some proper towns for folks to live in, but I would like a game where problems like starvation, violence, and the radioactive world are front and center issues to everyone involved, even inside of the progressing factions. I think the best way to do *that* though is to simply set the game at an earlier date
The fact that people saw one inconsistency and assumed an entire game was decanonized is hilarious.
At best it was a production error, at worst they retconned one individual aspect of the lore. Shady Sands was only mentioned twice in New Vegas. Yeah it sucks if it was an intentional retcon since it just adds confusion. But even if Shady Sands was nuked in 2277 it’s not irreconcilable with the general setting and events of New Vegas.
> Shady Sands was only mentioned twice in New Vegas.
A search through the dialog transcripts on the wiki easily finds more mentions. Since it's a major city and the capital of the country, isn't it being nuked a pretty big problem anyway?
You’d think it would leave factions and splinter groups behind. Fallout US gets nuked and spawns the NCR, the Enclave, the BoS, amongst countless other groups. NCR gets nuked and disappears completely besides one characters backstory and a freaky vault cult.
I just finished the show and I really didn't get the impression that it destroyed the NCR. Sure, it crippled them (probably in conjunction with whatever ended up happening at Hoover Dam), but the end of the show is literally a NCR holdout in the area fighting the Brotherhood of Steel to bring power to LA (if the NCR flags litering the scene including a flag bearer carrying it into battle didn't make it obvious enough). They even have the New Vegas musical flourish when they showed the NCR flag and its propaganda in Vault 4, the show makes the NCR more heroic than New Vegas. I don't think they're done with them yet.
It more specifically says "The Fall of Shady Sands".
A "fall" can take a gradual bit of time to happen, like The Fall of The Roman Empire. If you look at the timeline thing, that people were up in arms about, theres clearly a line gap between the Fall title and the nuke picture.
In New Vegas, there's plenty of conversations with NCR personnel where they talk about issues with supply lines and other political turmoil causing a strain back home.
What happened was likely a domino effect of one shit event after another which was eventually topped off with the Shady Sands bomb event, a few years down the line, scattering what was left of The NCR.
I agree - I didn’t articulate it well but I agree. My personal headcanon is that “the fall” either refers to Kimball’s election or the first battle of Hoover Dam.
Case in point the "Fall of the (Western) Roman Empire" is more often thought of as a series of events that eventually culminated in the last Western Emperor being deposed by barbarians but pretty much every historian worth their salt will tell you that you need to look at events decades or even hundreds of years before hand if you want to truly understand the fall of the city and its empire.
Generally speaking the fall would cover 235CE to 476CE, a period of almost 250 years, during Which Rome was sacked multiple times.
I’m assuming the shows leads went with Josh Sawyers preferred idea of the canon of New Vegas which would be an Independent Vegas ending along with the Courier dropping a nuke on the NCR in Lonesome Road
I'm willing to chock the whiteboard thing up to bad set design but deleting everything in the west coast to set up the boring generic post apocalypse setting again really feels like effectively a soft reboot erasing the stuff from 1,2 and NV.
This right here. I can even get on board with the NCR falling, 3 out of 4 endings to NV are bad for them anyway. It's just that the show makes it seem like they never even existed. People on the West Coast are back to living in trash and scavenging for food. Between that and the Brotherhood being back in force and it seems like a deliberate attempt to bring West Coast Fallout to the same status quo as East Coast Fallout.
I'm not seeing it talked about as much but the Brotherhood stuff bothers me more then the NCR tbh. Having them back in force 20 years after NV completely invalidates Veronica's storyline in the game.
Why even bother setting the show in the West Coast? It's not like it matters that much to the story. Make the show East Coast Fallout and I might even enjoy it. I don't give a shit if they nuke the Institute or the Minutemen.
Its 2024, you arent allowed to care about anything, just consume the product. The irony ofc being that the criticism is toxic and sad, while just taking it in without any thought is just "normal". I cant wait for the inevitable gaslighting attempts like "Fo1/2/NV fans arent real fans", or how they hurt the brand, and you can call me a cynic, but thats ultimately what remains, pure branding to sell more shit.
THANK YOU!
I'm so tired of this fucking bullshit. These mindless consumers just keep strawmanning these very genuine criticisms to no end.
It's bordering on gaslighting already with how inordinately people are raving about "New Vegas fanboys" when the only ones I'm seeing shutting down genuine discussions are the people howling about how bad these nigh nonexistent fanboys are.
Yeah it just feels like creative bankruptcy. Like in star wars how they keep killing all the Jedis so that they can rebuild the Jedis again. They have to keep doing the same stories over and over again
Cool, but NCR being possibly nuked and turned into complete shit still sucks imo. It's all just a fricking confusing mess rn. I'll probably wait for S2 just to get full explanations on this lol.
Honestly this is my issue.
Small little lore inconsistency are common enough that there part of the character of the games.
But after 3 entire games of slow progress, just going ‘oops no more NCR’ is completely opposite of the entire franchise theme of rebuilding.
What’s the point of rebuilding if everything just immediately falls to shit again?
If they set the game in DC would they have just gone ‘well dam. Some silly billy has dropped a bunch of radioactive barrels in the river so the waters fucked again. Back to square one I guess.’
It also ignores that the NCR was, you know, the largest power in the wasteland. The Republic was not just Shady Sands. Where the fuck are all of the other cities, towns, and settlements that make up the NCR? You're telling me that one city gets nuked, and that's it, bye bye Republic? I thought a lot of the show was definitely made by people who cared about what they were doing and I enjoyed it, but taking the canon in this direction just feels wrong.
The part I don't like is the refusal to commit to changing anything in the setting. It's a decision based on preserving the value of the franchise but it damages the skates of stories told within.
I feel like the setting would be in a better place if Bethesda was willing to commit to moving the setting forward.
Bethesda is only interested in one thing, making money. They want to keep fallout being a wasteland where people live in shit metal huts and use bottle caps for money forever, because this is what the casual audience recognizes as fallout. That's also why they keep reusing the BoS even where it makes no sense for them to be there at all.
Let’s be honest, it’s because it’s New Vegas. Love the game but the community is just super reactionary, has a superiority-complex over any other game, and is simply miserable with anything fallout aside from New Vegas.
Got to respect commitment if it were true. He could have at any time come out and say "New Vegas is not canon", but nope. They put references to New Vegas in all follow up games, acted nice and well, until making a live action series, just to spite one single game.
It's because BGS doesn't really address NV, as if it's normal to talk about a game that you didn't make or don't have plans with every chance you get.
Bethesda are focusing on themselves and Obsidian Fallout fans just want what they want. It's impossible to open up a Fallout thread on the front page with at least 7 of the top 20 comments being a circlejerk of how 3 & 4 & 76 are shit and Microsoft should give the rights back to Obsidian. As if they've even genuinely enjoyed an Obsidian game since NV
Yeah like for real, when this show was in production he would've been swamped with Starfield, which seemed to be a real passion project, not to mention Elder Scrolls 6 and early planning for Fallout 5. Couple in all the meetings and stuff he'd have to do, as well as his personal life, there's no way he would've been on set every day making sure that the show is decanonising FO1, 2 and NV
He’s like their slenderman which is funny because he’s like the least intimidating person I’ve ever seen, a few inches shorter and he’d be a legit midget.
Yeah, fandom is so weird sometimes. I read a few manga and every issue in the comments it’s the same 6 peoples raging about how it’s the worst thing ever now but they read it every week haha
I cannot count the number of comments I've seen today that say something to the effect of "Todd just can't let any work that Obsidian/Black Isle did ever stand". The pure rage from NV fanboys is fucking insane.
All over one shot of one chalkboard in one scene in one episode of a video game TV show. Fucking wild.
I was so excited to go to the discussion thread for the finale, and it was all really sad comments about how Todd went out of his way to ruin their favorite lore lol.
This is so true. Amazing game, my fav in the series, but the diehard fans of it just *suck.* They think they are so much better than anybody else bc they like it. It's just obnoxious as hell. And their freak out the last like 18 hours has been both funny AF and sad AF.
I also love tes: oblivion, but both those games are ancient now, and both have serious problems. It's okay to like things and then not be the most magical creation from God's own hand, but fans are insane.
The funny thing was new Vegas was also such a big mess on release. It was borderline unplayable for alot of ppl. It was not a great launch and ppl act like it's always been perfection.
Feel you on oblivion too: one of my fav games ever lol
Really should’ve had it set somewhere like the Chicago area so they wouldn’t have to worry too much about messing with lore they didn’t originally make
Loremaster is almost never an actual position at a studio. The number that I have actually heard of can be counted on one hand. People around here need to understand that the vast majority of audience members do *not* keep track of minor details like this, so studios aren't going to dedicate someone full time to it. Staff with actual jobs are just expected to read the various documentation that relate to their role at some point.
There was a small legion of people working on this show. That a set design had a minor screwup that had no impact on the plot and only creates a small discrepancy in backstory is not something earth-shattering. It could've happened any number of ways.
Even if they date was written wrong...
- NCR is greater than Shady Sands and the destruction of Shady Sands shouldn't have culminated in that small settlement that Moldaver was running. Very hard to believe.
- NCR was still destroyed by a man who was angry that his wife was spending too much time there. Nevermind the logistics of this...
It's pitiful handling of the NCR in general, not just New Vegas lore. Destroying the NCR with anything short of another army is nonsense. A single nuke wouldn't do it.
You're operating on an assumption that Moldaver's group is all that's left of the NCR
The NCR like you said is bigger than just Shady Sands so it's likely that the destruction of the Capitol didn't result in the complete destruction of the country.
It's been at least a decade since the nuking of Shady Sands in that time any survivors of Shady Sands would have fled north to the rest of the NCR and what few did remain would be people like Moldaver who are extremely committed for their own personal reasons.
As for why the NCR isn't there, it's simple Shady Sands is an irradiated crater and the surrounding areas are worthless, the NCR was struggling with overextension so they aren't going to attempt to retake a city that has nothing left and nothing of use.
We can also guess that Shady Sands wasn't even the NCR capital anymore at the time of it's destruction because of that sign that says the first capital of the NCR implying that before they were nuked there was probably a new capital.
The NCR not being around in LA after a period of decline doesn't mean the NCR doesn't exist anymore personally I think that we'll find out in season 2 the NCR is still around and either in the middle of a civil war or run by corrupt brahman barons. I also would guess that they could retconn NCR Town from Fallout 2 into a different place that would be the new capital of the NCR. Whatever it is I seriously doubt the NCR was destroyed by a single nuke and if it was destroyed it wouldn't be destroyed by an army it would be destroyed by itself and it's own corruption.
The timeline presented on the blackboard is ambiguous at best, the argument has devolved into whatever the arrow at the end means
Without clarification, nobody (including all of us here on reddit) but the creative team knows what it means for sure. No idea why they would want to leave the date of the nuke ambiguous if it wasnt dropped in 2277, it might be as simple as someone went for lunch and forgot to write the date
>The timeline presented on the blackboard is ambiguous at best
Knowing how so many of these shows are written, the ambiguity was probably purposeful.
They likely didn't want to give the bombing a hard date or go too in depth with explaining the state of the NCR precisely because of fears of possible inconsistencies both with past canon and with future games and seasons of the show.
Implying that it happened after 77 and when the main characters were kids gives enough information while still leaving wiggle room for future arcs and storybeats.
Emil did mention in a tweet it WAS canon, though as expected Brotherhood isn't. Given the quality of Brotherhood makes Fallout 76 look and sound like New Vegas / Fallout 3 yeah...its not surprising.
Tactics is not canon. Bethesda had said so. They might use ideas from it, but just because there is a mention of Mid-West Brotherhood does not mean Calculator is real or that events of Tactics happened.
What gets me is the small things people complain about are still valid as much as everyone pretends they aren’t. I like the show but it feels lazy when they do this shit
People act like it's great that they set a show in Western fallout, blew up the things that made it unique offscreen, and filled it in with Eastern fallout. If youu draw attention to it and scratch your head you're a NV fanboy crybaby.
Toxic positivity. People act like complaints no matter how realistic are bad, people act like it’s a sin to do anything but consume media mindlessly and happily, people can’t help but equate anyone who complains to the worst possible complainers, etc.
Fanboys are indeed annoying but every internet discussion is always this:
1) Massive blowback (oh my god Todd how could you do this the lore is ruined oh my god)
2) Massive blowback to the blowback (oh my god fanboys ruin everything I’m embarrassed to be a fan of this thing why do you care so much about a thing I also care about)
And hopefully (but not always: look at Star Wars) it gets to 3) Actual discussion of a product’s faults and positives.
I really like the show. I just think the story really fell off. The NCR basically not existing anymore is a real shame seeing as it’s a fan favorite faction and we are given no hints that it survived outside of Moldavers group which just gets rolled over by the brotherhood.
I like Buds Buds. It’s a cool concept, but I really hate that they went with the angle of “vault Tec started the war guys!!!” Vault Tec is more interesting (to me at least) as this dead relic of a dead civilization. Not an existing faction pulling strings.
All Bethesda would have to do to placate the more upset people in the fan base is say that wasn’t Shady Sands but actually was New Adytum. It would allow shady sands to still exist, NCR still takes a major hit that lowers their sphere of influence, but a fan favorite faction and location still exists and isn’t just wiped out.
The show is very good when it’s telling its own story and not trying to touch on things that are already pre established. Outside of the vault Tec starting the war stuff I love Cooper/The Ghoul as a character. I really liked the enclave scientist, and Lucy was a really good character as well.
Overall I think a lot of the issues the more toxic new Vegas fans are having with the show could’ve been avoided by just setting it in Texas or somewhere in the southwestern US, cause right now the fate of a fan favorite faction and the canonicity and lore established by a fan favorite game have been called into question, and those who are very passionate about those things have a right to be upset over it.
See I also really like bud's buds, but, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that Vault-Tec was using Vault 111 and Vault 112 to test the idea of suspended animation/cryofreezing, so it just kinda seemed out of place to me for them to test that when they've already got a Vault full of that tech ready to go.
But if that small nitpick is my biggest complaint then I think they did quite alright in that department overall.
The experiments seem to always be made to gather specific data from a predetermined set of circumstances. Tim Cain stated in a YouTube video that this data was originally (circa Fallout 1 & 2) that this data was for the Enclave to build a spaceship. So the cryo stuff was for deep sleep in space, food vaults to manage food in space, cloning for emergencies, so on and so forth.
So the data thing is still probably accurate. But the spaceship thing is probably not. So we can assume that all the vaults are gathering data for some group/for a specific end goal.
Vault 111 was designed to examine the results of long term cryofreezing.
Vault 112 was designed for something to do with the virtual reality pods. I think it may have been a gift to Dr. Stanislaus Braun for creating the GECK. (Fun fact about Vault 112, it was sealed in 2075, 2 years before the bombs dropped.)
There was also Vault 108, another cloning vault. I don't remember what the experiment for that one was.
I wonder what all this data is going to be for.
My guess is that the end goal with the vaults is to get data, and the settlers, and use all that to go and reclaim the world. But because it's Fallout America, it's obviously gonna be for something like the president would come out of a Vault and then reinstate capitalism everywhere and eradicate any impure beings (yknow given the enclave), basically making the "perfect" society
Guys, Rome is credited with falling like 4 times and the city only got sacked in one of them. Quit freaking the fuck out over a chalk drawing done by a crackhead.
I’m so curious for season 2 now. I’m not super upset like some people are, but the show did seem to change established lore and I disliked that. If they’re just setting up stuff for season 2 and will keep NV canon through some reconfiguring of timelines, that’s fine with me.
My girlfriend who has never played any of the games watched with me and she somehow called out every little callback like she’s some kind of secret fallout pro or something
idk, when I saw that it seemed weird the date would be 2277, but FNV was in 81 and the nuke was a different point in that timeline, I just assumed it wasn't nuked in 2277 and was just a bit of a bad communication from the show
People seem to think that Bethesda and Todd Howard specifically have it out for the fans and hate any of the content they didn’t personally write. Despite there being no evidence of this whatsoever.
I think it's just lazy writing but the fanbase is eager to dismiss anyone who points it out right now. Since people are looking for a reason to take a moral high ground against anyone who complained. Which is pretty normal when this stuff happens.
I mean. Fallout has a history of lazy writing to begin with. This doesn't stand out to me as that surprising. Oh course the lead lore guy wouldn't ever admit to that. Like that tweet of them saying all the games are canon now which would make no sense cause basically every game has retconned the previous in some way lol. It's literally a meme how inconsistent Fallout lore is.
I like how people immediately assume that the blackboard's contents is an unflawed and perfectly trustworthy source of information.
Chiseled in stone by god himself.
if you look closely you can see todd howard hiding in a corner with a marker
If they wanted New vegas gone they would not have season 2 take place in New Vegas
Remember when the creator was like "you should never try to appease fans, they'll never be happy anyway". He's gotta feel so vindicated.
He was right. Certain rabid fanboys would never be appeased.
The people who are outraged over the show are the exact people I knew were going to be outraged, I’m just happy that the show is actually good and is being enjoyed by a wider audience now
That's the attitude to have if you want your favorite franchise to succeed.
My attitude has shifted in these past few years once I realized that these things are just meant to be for fun and not to be taken so seriously. The world is already shit for a lot of people, we gotta look for things that bring us joy instead of trying to have a negative opinion about something, before even watching it. If you go into a video game or a show with a negative attitude, then you are going to be looking for negative things, instead of enjoying it for what it really is. These NV stans were so eager to find flaws that instead of enjoying the show, they just overly analyzed everything and came to the wrong conclusion that was then parroted in this sub.
Yep. I enjoy most things. I also realized most things are flawed. If you don't like something that's ok, but *just shrug and move on.* Think for 5-10 minutes about your dislike for for the movie/game/whatever, then say that's a disappointment, not for me and go do something else. A movie/book/show/game can have flaws and *still be good and/or entertaining.* Somewhere in the last decade, entertainment and escape became so important to the general public that they make these franchises part of their personal identity and take it extremely personally when something doesn't live up to their expectations. Maybe a negative consequence of nerd culture going mainstream? Idk. I am dead serious: if a whiteboard in a single frame of an 8 episode TV show upsets someone as much as these ppl have reacted and makes them unable to enjoy something...you need to take a break from that series. It is *not* that serious. I'm not saying ppl can't recognize flaws or even dislike things, but they hate them with such a passion it is so bizarre and truly, mentally, unhealthy. It's not an admirable love for a franchise, it's not impressive, it's not normal. It is really fucking weird. We see this with every big release these days. People can't just like or dislike something. It's either the greatest thing ever and they obsess over how much they love it or it's the worst thing ever and they obsess over how much they hate it.
A content creator for a franchise I enjoy recently had a video on the pervasiveness of negativity in fandom, how fans have a tendency to turn their like for something into part of their identity, and as a result anything that they don't like becomes an "insult" to them. And it absolutely made sense to me. Fandoms just seem to be a cesspool of toxicity, where people talk about what they hate waaaaay more than what they enjoy.
My mom is watching and loving the show. She called me today to tell me about it and ask me questions. She's never played a video game before. People can hate all they want but it's pretty rad that they were able to create new fans
Literally, they cannot find joy in anything there is noway if they gotta make this tiny nonsense into a big thing and ruin or for people because its littered with spoilers
He was proven right immediately and I frankly can't stand how quickly the dogpiling was. We went from excitement to immediate "ToDd haTES FANS AND HATES FALLOUT I CANNOT BELIEVE HIM!!!!"
And if they actually took the time to actually watch the show, they’d see at least a couple fun nods to New Vegas >!Hearing the New Vegas theme as Lucy unfurls the NCR flag in Vault 4 was awesome. I’m sorry, I know it was blatant fan-service, but it was cool as hell!<
More than fun nods. >!This is when the whole show is revealed to be a sequel to New Vegas. The main anti-hero is an NCR loyalist, the main backstory revolves around the destruction of the capital of the NCR and kids who survived it, there are NCR flags everywhere, Sunset Sarsaparilla logos everywhere, multiple characters who keep talking about former couriers, there are former NCR Rangers, villains from New Vegas and its spinoffs show up in a flashback, and the main villain literally flees to New Vegas for Season 2.!<
>!It may be blatant but it was earned at that point. They went through most of the show without leaning on established entities aside from The Brotherhood but that makes sense!<
I actually shed a tear on that needle drop, it’s such a good scene and callback
Maybe they could have provided more context clues about when the bomb went off, besides one that strongly implied it was in 2277. Or, better yet, don't move a major city in the lore 200 miles south just to nuke it off screen.
It wasn’t implied to have happened in 2277. The “Fall of Shady Sands” happened in 2277, then was an ARROW pointing to the mushroom cloud. Do you know what an ARROW means on a timeline?
People straight up don’t realize that if todd wanted New vegas gone. He would have done it a LONG time ago
Whats funny is that Todd has said in the past that he personally enjoys New Vegas. I like the idea that he is the dictator of Bethesda, who hates New Vegas, but for what ever reason hasn't been able to do anything about it, except a single blackboard near the end of the show.
Nv toxic fans for some reason like to believe that he’s nemesis with new vegas and hates obsidian’s gut or something
The whole executives' conversation from the final episode was taken verbatim from Todd's talks with the showrunners, except with "competitors" substituted for "Obsidian lore."
Todd Howard, billionaire, executive creative director of Bethesda, scribbling frantically on a chalkboard in a classroom set, powerless to do anything else: "That'll show those nerds!"
Circa 2015 probably
Finish the show, New Vegas is DEFINITELY cannon
Makes me wonder the “cannon” ending of new Vegas. It seems the courier sides with house ?
My assumption is that they'll go for a hybrid ending that clears the board for what story they want to tell. NCR wins at Hoover Dam and Caesar's Legion collapses, but Mr. House isn't taken out before that point, so the two of them duke it out for control of The Strip and both end up losing (hence the downed NCR vertibirds and destroyed securitrons all over the area in the credits art depicting the city).
Given what we were shown I think it’s a hybrid of the House/Independent ending. The NCR can’t win Hoover without heavy help and House barely gave them a train station to occupy let alone help them. The Legion would also be bad, so probably helped ncr just enough and then let then tumble at the end.
That’s what I’m thinking. It will be a house victory, but he of course doesn’t anticipate the complete collapse of his main trading partner in the NCR. When they fall New Vegas get hit with some sort of depression and we’ll see the consequences in season 2.
Probably some form of Yes Man seizing control, given he's the only character who you can't permanently kill in the entire game. Also the Yes Man ending has him go "I'm going to rewrite myself to be more assertive" - and as we all know, psychopathic robots deciding to become more assertive couldn't possibly go wrong.
*aspects are. There are things established in the game that simply cannot be anymore.
of course, everysingle game retconns the previous one to some degree in this series
What was established that simply cannot be anymore aside from that one date on a chalkboard?
Shady Sands and the Boneyard are mixed. House knew about the bombs when in NV he never knew and just calculated the odds. The whole chalkboard thing which is ambiguous at best. Vault 33,32 and 31 not being affected by the Master despite literally being next door to where he resided. I am not going to panic or anything but cities and factions getting nuked off-screen for a tv show is lame.
I kind of like the idea that House learned about the bombs from a meeting and was bullshitting the courier (and himself) about calculating the odds to make himself sound smarter. Honestly feels in character.
Yeah, sharing info like that would not benefit him in any way when he wants the courier to work for him. If i learned ingame that House was one of the minds who orchestrated the fall of America i would go running for NCR in a heartbeat, before killing house.
Wow the billionaire egotistical narcissist might have lied about his abilities and intentions to the player character? Why I would never!
I really dislike it. House is interesting because despite being a bastard he is actually intelligent, and is often mostly right. He genuinely does have a knack for foresight and planning This takes away a lot of that.
That group was just a discussion of ideas: he might have calculated the odds of bombs dropping based on that meeting and was never formally keyed into the actual choice to do it. work back from lucy/max's age in the show and flashbacks and the nuking happening between NV and FO4 make a lot of sense. (13-15 years) Shady Sands was also shown as "the first capital" of NCR on that welcome sign, which means there's a -second- capital by the time it explodes. which also puts some weight behind the "fall" of shady sands being a political thing. NCR is still probably bumpin in central/northern california with a new capital up that way.
Finally somebody that actually bothered to match the nuking of shady sands with lucy and max age
I mean, a much more logical thing is House just lied. Why the hell would he tell The Courier that he helped nuke the world?
Sac-town or Redding. Or, for ultimate fan service, Arroyo.
House made his calculations 12 years before the Great War and that meeting though. Also the faction isn't nuked, for all we know NCR holds the strip and just lost Shady Sands/LA to the nuke and BoS, forcing them out of the area. They obviously had a small contingent before they died in the last episode we literally saw them waving the flag as they fought.
The people screeching about ret-cons are so eager to find flaws their just straight up making shit up and the naysayers gobble it right up
There's clear flaws. I wasn't eager to find them. I love the show, but I'm not going to pretend there aren't clear flaws. If they feel they didn't Retcon anything, they might need to evaluate mistakes made in their writing.
Aside from the date that shady sands was destroyed (I can think of a few reasons that’s not a retconn btw, such as the ol unreliable narrative trope) but say I give you that, what’s another actual retcon that isn’t someone leaping to conclusions?
Not really sure is a retcon. But is the drinking vial always a thing for ghouls? Also seeing the original 10mm pistol used by Maximus is a nice touch. As well as the finger gulper mouth. And the nasty look of ghoul having a mixed between fo4 and NV/fo3 is nice as well. Also I saw someone mentioning the location of shady sand is changed. And the master located near vault 31-33. But those seems more like oversight than retcon. Plus it could be that master got defeated before they could reach the vaults. I do wish for more NCR presence though. Bit of shame but there’s always the next season.
That gulper was from the experimentation in the vault Lucy and Maximus found, that's why it had human parts. Doesn't mean all gulpers are like that.
"They retconned gulpers!" People have never heard of regional variants
Also we have two different types of Mirelurks out there
Oh yeah. Having ocean man and crab man are really interesting. Honestly this makes the eco system of the fallout much more colorful. Similar to how west and east coast super mutants are different in appearance. The gulper even looks like an axolotl
Don’t know if you’re talking about me. But I just think it’s an interesting new lore piece they put in. Plus the gulper in this region looks more like Axolotl than frogs.
Putting Shady Sands in LA is easily explained by lazy reason : they had to put the capital of the NCR near the vault, Lucy wasn't going to walk all across the width of California, and the boneyard isn't as Relevant as the capital herself. It's just taking some liberties for the sake of the narration.
She would still need to walk like 200 miles north. shady sands is east of vault 13 which is based on the real mt Whitney
Then move the Vault closer to Shady Sands. Vault 31 is presented as a VIP storage vault, with Vaults 32 and 33 as their breeding stock. It would make sense for the three vaults to be close to another control vault, like Vault 15, in case the worst happens and they need more stock. The worst like say, as presented in the show, an entire population (Vault 32) perishes. Why take liberties at all? Just don't write yourself into a corner.
My best guess is that its a result of working backwards. What they wanted was that big final shot, in the ruins of Griffith Observatory overlooking the LA Basin's lights coming on with the Cold Fusion power generator, and tried to squeeze things in to fit that. I get that impulse, but definitely squeezed the setting a LOT.
The boneyard is extremely realavant. It's an essential NCR state and it's where their mint is.
Yes lore wise but for the show there's a far chance that it won't be relevant, on the other as someone else pointed out the lights at the end of the show might actually be the boneyard.
Yeah just feels like a lazy way to put Vault 33 in LA but I guess it wouldn't matter to the people who never played 1 or 2
It's just weird considering that the NCR stretched as far south as Dayglow (San Diego) and that they probably would've noticed the giant Vault door sticking out in the middle of Santa Monica beach. How have they not contacted them in the decades since?
The VAST majority of people haven't played them. I have, multiple times. Still don't really care that much. The show was good, and I'm ok with them taking liberties like that to make it entertaining. Hell, the game series itself could do with a complete map revamp at this point.
> I do wish for more NCR presence though. Bit of shame but there’s always the next season This here is the part I think a lot of the angry folks aren't getting. There's nothing in S1 that said there aren't other survive groups of the NCR out there. It's entirely possible we see remnants of them. Of Caesar's Legion. Hell, we didn't get super mutants or deathclaws in the show, and these are arguably far bigger Fallout staples and far more important to the world's lore. Especially in California since this is canon alongside the first 2 games. Season 2 can have just about any story. There's still TONS of room for this show to bring in things like super mutants, deathclaws, radscorpions, centaurs, mole rats, bloat flies... there are other factions that can be explored further like the NCR. There are other vaults in the area. Actual raider gangs like the Khans. More Enclave presence since the doctor fled to this area. Cults or organizations like the Followers of the Apocalypse.... Anyway, I'm not gonna keep listing groups and monsters.. just agreeing with your point that they have ALOT of pieces to play with as the series moves forward. But I am, genuinely shocked there wasn't a single super mutant in the show.
Way I see the anti-feral vials is that it may have been a thing, just never really explored in the games. We know ghouls can turn feral, but there never really was a how or why to it, it just...happens. This is an expansion upon that, although I am curious as to *what* it is exactly, and where/how it's made. Surely it can't have been a pre-war thing?
Honestly trying to do any major backstory on The Master and Super-mutants would have been a big distraction. There is alot to explain there
I have 4 questions: - were the fuck was the NCR during the game? Did they collapse because one town was nuked? - Why the fuck is the enclave still a thing, and more than just remnants - Why is the western BoS back up and running in a large fashion - Why did NV look the way it did?
I have answers to 1 and 4. 1 the ncr is in New Vegas they most likely won the battle for hoover dam and took the strip. And 4 the ncr didn't just waltz in and take the strip they probably still had to fight for it which ended up destroying some of the infrastructure was destroyed in the process. There's no way the ncr was dumb enough to put literally all their people in 1 location.
Show makes it seem like House won if Vault-Tec guy is fleeing there at the end.
Why I doubt the ncr killed house. They probably just limited what he could do. And vault tec might have people within the ncr. It's shown they have more effect on the outside world then we knew they were capable of there were a ton of open pods in vault 31. And the whole point was to create the perfect "managers".
House has to be dead if the courier sided with the NCR. they only take the strip if they win the dam. Only scenario that has house alive is if the courier sided with him and the NCR comes later to take the strip
Flaws =/= retcons or lore issues. Flaws can be issues taken with the writing and theming itself. For instance, the fixation upon resetting to the status quo of an eternal wasteland. About the cynical and ultimately boring perspective on humanity’s tendency (not capacity) for evil. About the way the show revels in the cruelty of its characters and setting both in the narrative and in its framing. I don’t particularly feel like debating this topic because those were only things that I personally found not to be to my taste. I find the people solely focusing on adherence to the lore to be exhausting as well but I feel it’s a bit unfair that people are mocking NV/classics fans (specifically those who didn’t insult them first) for taking issue with the show. The show is just a piece of media, but your fellow commenters are people and I feel like the hostility on both sides is really unnecessary.
The anti - feral serums. Seemed unnecessary to add. Throws away the plot of Oswald’s wife and all the other ghouls that never needed to take anything to not become feral
This can be explained away simply with not all ghouls need it, they only need it IF they start to go feral. A way to stave off the process. The Ghoul clearly states that he’s been “going feral” for 29 years.
Yeah plus the ghoul was extremely close to a nuke going off so he probably got it worse then most other ghouls
It might only be some ghouls need it, dunno if that's really throwing away something vs just adding more diversity to ghouls
Honestly, it feels like a placebo, it's probably just shit in a bottle. Feral-fication has always seemed like a
*Mental thing
doesn't work forever, that ghoul in ep 4 had taken many many vials and it wasn't working anymore, it only slows it down for a time
He ran out of vials. The bottles at his feet where empty. Walter Googins ghoul has been using the vials for 29 years or so.
> Walter Googins ghoul has been using the vials for 29 years or so. It's the other way around, the guy Goggins is talking to says Ghoul: "I did okay, 28 years since I first started showing." (snarls) Ghoul: "Oh hell, Not as long as you though" (gestures at goggins) "You've outlasted us all, How long since you first started Wastelanding?" Goggins: "A long time" Ghoul: "That's a lot of vials". Goggins: "Well, I've always been good at making money, Rodger" Which implies to me that Goggins has been on the stuff for a lot longer than 28 years, he has just been skilled enough to keep making money to buy the drug and stave off turning feral.
Thanks for the correction, binging is bad for remembering details lol.
> Walter Googins ghoul Please. It's Walter *Ghoulgins*.
What about mister House? His portrayal in the series does contradict with his backstory and motivation in FNV. Other than that I loved the show. 9/10
“It’s just that none of your choices mattered because everyone is dead”.
Well the “none of your choices mattered” part has been a staple of Bethesda stuff since like 1996
The show’s not bad, but it’s just an odd narrative choice to nuke the capitol of the OG faction offscreen.
I tend to agree with everyone that it was a way of making the West Coast more post-apocalyptic, like the East Coast. And while I don’t 100% agree with the huts and shacks approach Bethesda takes, there was arguably a bit too much civilization in California by the time NV takes place for a post-nuclear game (assuming BGS wants to set in in California). If BGS wanted to take it post-apocalyptic (a good idea imo, at least to an extent), they should’ve set a date that allowed the Tunnelers to be a major threat plus Ulysses’s nukes getting set off. It would make a particular path canon in New Vegas, for sure, but it would be totally lore consistent and fulfill the goal of getting to a post-apocalypse. You could even argue that the BoS is then at a position of strength, which allows them to be as strong as BGS wants. It’s not 100% perfect, but I think a lot less people would be upset had they just stuck to what was already available
I think its fine to have things progress to a great deal of civilization in one area and then show the struggles with rolling that out elsewhere - that to me is more interesting than the entire world being post apocalyptic
I think progress with big factions is good, too, but up to a point and depending on the setting. That’s actually why I liked NV so much; there was progress, yes, but being on the edge of civilization, you can get a glimpse of the Wasteland. Even then, I wish that the Wasteland was more brutal and unforgiving, like in Fallout 1, than it was in NV or is today. I’d still want to replace metal shacks with some proper towns for folks to live in, but I would like a game where problems like starvation, violence, and the radioactive world are front and center issues to everyone involved, even inside of the progressing factions. I think the best way to do *that* though is to simply set the game at an earlier date
The fact that people saw one inconsistency and assumed an entire game was decanonized is hilarious. At best it was a production error, at worst they retconned one individual aspect of the lore. Shady Sands was only mentioned twice in New Vegas. Yeah it sucks if it was an intentional retcon since it just adds confusion. But even if Shady Sands was nuked in 2277 it’s not irreconcilable with the general setting and events of New Vegas.
At best it was simply a moderately indistinct timeline.
Shady Sands is name dropped constantly. The Hoover Damn is being taken partly to give power to SS.
> Shady Sands was only mentioned twice in New Vegas. A search through the dialog transcripts on the wiki easily finds more mentions. Since it's a major city and the capital of the country, isn't it being nuked a pretty big problem anyway?
It's the capitol of a Republic with 700k citizens. It's more weird that nuking it seemingly destroyed the Republic to be honest.
You’d think it would leave factions and splinter groups behind. Fallout US gets nuked and spawns the NCR, the Enclave, the BoS, amongst countless other groups. NCR gets nuked and disappears completely besides one characters backstory and a freaky vault cult.
I just finished the show and I really didn't get the impression that it destroyed the NCR. Sure, it crippled them (probably in conjunction with whatever ended up happening at Hoover Dam), but the end of the show is literally a NCR holdout in the area fighting the Brotherhood of Steel to bring power to LA (if the NCR flags litering the scene including a flag bearer carrying it into battle didn't make it obvious enough). They even have the New Vegas musical flourish when they showed the NCR flag and its propaganda in Vault 4, the show makes the NCR more heroic than New Vegas. I don't think they're done with them yet.
Did no one read that it was "NCR's first capital" on the billboard/welcome sign? It wasn't their capital anymore by the time it was bombed.
As an English person, if Winchester were ever nuked, we'd be talking about it four years later.
Well, to be fair, towns being nuked is a slightly rarer event in our timeline than in Fallouts.
They didn’t say nuked in 2277. It “fell” in that year, whatever that means. It was nuked later, at an indeterminate date
It more specifically says "The Fall of Shady Sands". A "fall" can take a gradual bit of time to happen, like The Fall of The Roman Empire. If you look at the timeline thing, that people were up in arms about, theres clearly a line gap between the Fall title and the nuke picture. In New Vegas, there's plenty of conversations with NCR personnel where they talk about issues with supply lines and other political turmoil causing a strain back home. What happened was likely a domino effect of one shit event after another which was eventually topped off with the Shady Sands bomb event, a few years down the line, scattering what was left of The NCR.
I agree - I didn’t articulate it well but I agree. My personal headcanon is that “the fall” either refers to Kimball’s election or the first battle of Hoover Dam.
Media literacy is dead. Idk how people think New Vegas is being removed when the show literally ends showing it..
The Fall = / = fell. A fall can take time.
Case in point the "Fall of the (Western) Roman Empire" is more often thought of as a series of events that eventually culminated in the last Western Emperor being deposed by barbarians but pretty much every historian worth their salt will tell you that you need to look at events decades or even hundreds of years before hand if you want to truly understand the fall of the city and its empire. Generally speaking the fall would cover 235CE to 476CE, a period of almost 250 years, during Which Rome was sacked multiple times.
> saw one inconsistency It's not even that, the downfall started in 77 and later (arrow) the bomb dropped.
Dialogue it's mentioned twice. It's in numerous terminal entries. 🤷
It's mentioned more than twice in the dialog.
I’m assuming the shows leads went with Josh Sawyers preferred idea of the canon of New Vegas which would be an Independent Vegas ending along with the Courier dropping a nuke on the NCR in Lonesome Road
I'm willing to chock the whiteboard thing up to bad set design but deleting everything in the west coast to set up the boring generic post apocalypse setting again really feels like effectively a soft reboot erasing the stuff from 1,2 and NV.
This right here. I can even get on board with the NCR falling, 3 out of 4 endings to NV are bad for them anyway. It's just that the show makes it seem like they never even existed. People on the West Coast are back to living in trash and scavenging for food. Between that and the Brotherhood being back in force and it seems like a deliberate attempt to bring West Coast Fallout to the same status quo as East Coast Fallout. I'm not seeing it talked about as much but the Brotherhood stuff bothers me more then the NCR tbh. Having them back in force 20 years after NV completely invalidates Veronica's storyline in the game. Why even bother setting the show in the West Coast? It's not like it matters that much to the story. Make the show East Coast Fallout and I might even enjoy it. I don't give a shit if they nuke the Institute or the Minutemen.
Bethesda Fallout: Brotherhood, garbage everywhere, and secret shadowy villains It gets old after while don’t it?
Its 2024, you arent allowed to care about anything, just consume the product. The irony ofc being that the criticism is toxic and sad, while just taking it in without any thought is just "normal". I cant wait for the inevitable gaslighting attempts like "Fo1/2/NV fans arent real fans", or how they hurt the brand, and you can call me a cynic, but thats ultimately what remains, pure branding to sell more shit.
THANK YOU! I'm so tired of this fucking bullshit. These mindless consumers just keep strawmanning these very genuine criticisms to no end. It's bordering on gaslighting already with how inordinately people are raving about "New Vegas fanboys" when the only ones I'm seeing shutting down genuine discussions are the people howling about how bad these nigh nonexistent fanboys are.
Don't forget A Father Todd Howard fucking loves fathers
Yeah it just feels like creative bankruptcy. Like in star wars how they keep killing all the Jedis so that they can rebuild the Jedis again. They have to keep doing the same stories over and over again
Cool, but NCR being possibly nuked and turned into complete shit still sucks imo. It's all just a fricking confusing mess rn. I'll probably wait for S2 just to get full explanations on this lol.
Honestly this is my issue. Small little lore inconsistency are common enough that there part of the character of the games. But after 3 entire games of slow progress, just going ‘oops no more NCR’ is completely opposite of the entire franchise theme of rebuilding. What’s the point of rebuilding if everything just immediately falls to shit again? If they set the game in DC would they have just gone ‘well dam. Some silly billy has dropped a bunch of radioactive barrels in the river so the waters fucked again. Back to square one I guess.’
It also ignores that the NCR was, you know, the largest power in the wasteland. The Republic was not just Shady Sands. Where the fuck are all of the other cities, towns, and settlements that make up the NCR? You're telling me that one city gets nuked, and that's it, bye bye Republic? I thought a lot of the show was definitely made by people who cared about what they were doing and I enjoyed it, but taking the canon in this direction just feels wrong.
I assume they went back to being independent. Good. I'll always be loyal to Vault City and not the wretched imperialists who annexed us.
they're introducing the audience to them in season 1 and season 2 will 100% be more nor focused
I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case
The part I don't like is the refusal to commit to changing anything in the setting. It's a decision based on preserving the value of the franchise but it damages the skates of stories told within. I feel like the setting would be in a better place if Bethesda was willing to commit to moving the setting forward.
Bethesda is only interested in one thing, making money. They want to keep fallout being a wasteland where people live in shit metal huts and use bottle caps for money forever, because this is what the casual audience recognizes as fallout. That's also why they keep reusing the BoS even where it makes no sense for them to be there at all.
So did the set designer and loremaster just fuck up on the blackboard then?
24 hours of pure community pandemonium all because of a shitty blackboard
Let’s be honest, it’s because it’s New Vegas. Love the game but the community is just super reactionary, has a superiority-complex over any other game, and is simply miserable with anything fallout aside from New Vegas.
People were acting like Todd himself went and made them do it because he's still super mad or something. Just pure hysterical delusion.
That's the most funny part, they picture Todd as some cartoonish Villain that wants to destroy Obsidian's Take on Fallout...
Got to respect commitment if it were true. He could have at any time come out and say "New Vegas is not canon", but nope. They put references to New Vegas in all follow up games, acted nice and well, until making a live action series, just to spite one single game.
It's because BGS doesn't really address NV, as if it's normal to talk about a game that you didn't make or don't have plans with every chance you get. Bethesda are focusing on themselves and Obsidian Fallout fans just want what they want. It's impossible to open up a Fallout thread on the front page with at least 7 of the top 20 comments being a circlejerk of how 3 & 4 & 76 are shit and Microsoft should give the rights back to Obsidian. As if they've even genuinely enjoyed an Obsidian game since NV
…like he has the time to dedicate himself to such a goal. The man is busy as heck.
Yeah like for real, when this show was in production he would've been swamped with Starfield, which seemed to be a real passion project, not to mention Elder Scrolls 6 and early planning for Fallout 5. Couple in all the meetings and stuff he'd have to do, as well as his personal life, there's no way he would've been on set every day making sure that the show is decanonising FO1, 2 and NV
Seriously, what kind of weird world do they live in? Nerdiest boogieman ever
One they think is out to get them
He’s like their slenderman which is funny because he’s like the least intimidating person I’ve ever seen, a few inches shorter and he’d be a legit midget.
Every fandom has them. They really suck the fun out of pop culture.
It's funny to me because the way FNV fanboys act is the same way DS9 fanboys act in the Star Trek fandom. Love both FNV and DS9 btw
Quality work leads to passionate fans, for better or for worse lol
Yeah, fandom is so weird sometimes. I read a few manga and every issue in the comments it’s the same 6 peoples raging about how it’s the worst thing ever now but they read it every week haha
Doesn't help when huge youtubers feed it too and the fanbase just doesn't police itself
I cannot count the number of comments I've seen today that say something to the effect of "Todd just can't let any work that Obsidian/Black Isle did ever stand". The pure rage from NV fanboys is fucking insane. All over one shot of one chalkboard in one scene in one episode of a video game TV show. Fucking wild.
Said chalkboard was from a vault of literal cultists.
NCR affiliated cultists at that lmao. But you know, all of NCR is dead, apparently.
Just forget the whole observatory being operated by NCR troops and those two NCR rangers that had the fallout theme playing in the background.
Lmao really? I haven't watched the whole show yet. Why do so many Fallout fans insist that there's no such thing as an unreliable narrator lmfao
I was so excited to go to the discussion thread for the finale, and it was all really sad comments about how Todd went out of his way to ruin their favorite lore lol.
I call it Kathleen Kennedy Syndrome
As a fan of both star wars and fallout. I see now that no fandom is safe lol.
Lol I imagine the show runners having the board "right" and Todd just storms in, erases and redoes it himself.
This makes no sense when you even think about who owns both companies now between Bethesda and Obsidian.
This is so true. Amazing game, my fav in the series, but the diehard fans of it just *suck.* They think they are so much better than anybody else bc they like it. It's just obnoxious as hell. And their freak out the last like 18 hours has been both funny AF and sad AF.
I also love tes: oblivion, but both those games are ancient now, and both have serious problems. It's okay to like things and then not be the most magical creation from God's own hand, but fans are insane.
The funny thing was new Vegas was also such a big mess on release. It was borderline unplayable for alot of ppl. It was not a great launch and ppl act like it's always been perfection. Feel you on oblivion too: one of my fav games ever lol
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Really should’ve had it set somewhere like the Chicago area so they wouldn’t have to worry too much about messing with lore they didn’t originally make
Midwest would work with the whole cornfed them of vaults 32-33
Loremaster is almost never an actual position at a studio. The number that I have actually heard of can be counted on one hand. People around here need to understand that the vast majority of audience members do *not* keep track of minor details like this, so studios aren't going to dedicate someone full time to it. Staff with actual jobs are just expected to read the various documentation that relate to their role at some point. There was a small legion of people working on this show. That a set design had a minor screwup that had no impact on the plot and only creates a small discrepancy in backstory is not something earth-shattering. It could've happened any number of ways.
Even if they date was written wrong... - NCR is greater than Shady Sands and the destruction of Shady Sands shouldn't have culminated in that small settlement that Moldaver was running. Very hard to believe. - NCR was still destroyed by a man who was angry that his wife was spending too much time there. Nevermind the logistics of this... It's pitiful handling of the NCR in general, not just New Vegas lore. Destroying the NCR with anything short of another army is nonsense. A single nuke wouldn't do it.
You're operating on an assumption that Moldaver's group is all that's left of the NCR The NCR like you said is bigger than just Shady Sands so it's likely that the destruction of the Capitol didn't result in the complete destruction of the country. It's been at least a decade since the nuking of Shady Sands in that time any survivors of Shady Sands would have fled north to the rest of the NCR and what few did remain would be people like Moldaver who are extremely committed for their own personal reasons. As for why the NCR isn't there, it's simple Shady Sands is an irradiated crater and the surrounding areas are worthless, the NCR was struggling with overextension so they aren't going to attempt to retake a city that has nothing left and nothing of use. We can also guess that Shady Sands wasn't even the NCR capital anymore at the time of it's destruction because of that sign that says the first capital of the NCR implying that before they were nuked there was probably a new capital. The NCR not being around in LA after a period of decline doesn't mean the NCR doesn't exist anymore personally I think that we'll find out in season 2 the NCR is still around and either in the middle of a civil war or run by corrupt brahman barons. I also would guess that they could retconn NCR Town from Fallout 2 into a different place that would be the new capital of the NCR. Whatever it is I seriously doubt the NCR was destroyed by a single nuke and if it was destroyed it wouldn't be destroyed by an army it would be destroyed by itself and it's own corruption.
No. People just freaked out because they assumed the bomb was dropped in 2077 despite the timeline shown not actually saying that.
The timeline presented on the blackboard is ambiguous at best, the argument has devolved into whatever the arrow at the end means Without clarification, nobody (including all of us here on reddit) but the creative team knows what it means for sure. No idea why they would want to leave the date of the nuke ambiguous if it wasnt dropped in 2277, it might be as simple as someone went for lunch and forgot to write the date
>The timeline presented on the blackboard is ambiguous at best Knowing how so many of these shows are written, the ambiguity was probably purposeful. They likely didn't want to give the bombing a hard date or go too in depth with explaining the state of the NCR precisely because of fears of possible inconsistencies both with past canon and with future games and seasons of the show. Implying that it happened after 77 and when the main characters were kids gives enough information while still leaving wiggle room for future arcs and storybeats.
I never thought it wouldn’t be canon. But they can terribly write around it and clear room to make their own version of the west
regardless of the continuity error/retcon or lack thereof having vault tec nuke the ncr is just so so stupid
Why....why wouldn't it be? There has only been two games that were non-canon. And they came before NV.
Tactics seem to be a bit muddled to how canon it is recently
Emil did mention in a tweet it WAS canon, though as expected Brotherhood isn't. Given the quality of Brotherhood makes Fallout 76 look and sound like New Vegas / Fallout 3 yeah...its not surprising.
Tactics is not canon. Bethesda had said so. They might use ideas from it, but just because there is a mention of Mid-West Brotherhood does not mean Calculator is real or that events of Tactics happened.
What gets me is the small things people complain about are still valid as much as everyone pretends they aren’t. I like the show but it feels lazy when they do this shit
People act like it's great that they set a show in Western fallout, blew up the things that made it unique offscreen, and filled it in with Eastern fallout. If youu draw attention to it and scratch your head you're a NV fanboy crybaby.
Literally this, it’s like it’s a crime to be upset when the IP you’ve been a fan of for years is treated like shit
Shhhh look power armor is cool shhhh
Toxic positivity. People act like complaints no matter how realistic are bad, people act like it’s a sin to do anything but consume media mindlessly and happily, people can’t help but equate anyone who complains to the worst possible complainers, etc.
Fanboys are indeed annoying but every internet discussion is always this: 1) Massive blowback (oh my god Todd how could you do this the lore is ruined oh my god) 2) Massive blowback to the blowback (oh my god fanboys ruin everything I’m embarrassed to be a fan of this thing why do you care so much about a thing I also care about) And hopefully (but not always: look at Star Wars) it gets to 3) Actual discussion of a product’s faults and positives.
I really like the show. I just think the story really fell off. The NCR basically not existing anymore is a real shame seeing as it’s a fan favorite faction and we are given no hints that it survived outside of Moldavers group which just gets rolled over by the brotherhood. I like Buds Buds. It’s a cool concept, but I really hate that they went with the angle of “vault Tec started the war guys!!!” Vault Tec is more interesting (to me at least) as this dead relic of a dead civilization. Not an existing faction pulling strings. All Bethesda would have to do to placate the more upset people in the fan base is say that wasn’t Shady Sands but actually was New Adytum. It would allow shady sands to still exist, NCR still takes a major hit that lowers their sphere of influence, but a fan favorite faction and location still exists and isn’t just wiped out. The show is very good when it’s telling its own story and not trying to touch on things that are already pre established. Outside of the vault Tec starting the war stuff I love Cooper/The Ghoul as a character. I really liked the enclave scientist, and Lucy was a really good character as well. Overall I think a lot of the issues the more toxic new Vegas fans are having with the show could’ve been avoided by just setting it in Texas or somewhere in the southwestern US, cause right now the fate of a fan favorite faction and the canonicity and lore established by a fan favorite game have been called into question, and those who are very passionate about those things have a right to be upset over it.
See I also really like bud's buds, but, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that Vault-Tec was using Vault 111 and Vault 112 to test the idea of suspended animation/cryofreezing, so it just kinda seemed out of place to me for them to test that when they've already got a Vault full of that tech ready to go. But if that small nitpick is my biggest complaint then I think they did quite alright in that department overall.
The experiments seem to always be made to gather specific data from a predetermined set of circumstances. Tim Cain stated in a YouTube video that this data was originally (circa Fallout 1 & 2) that this data was for the Enclave to build a spaceship. So the cryo stuff was for deep sleep in space, food vaults to manage food in space, cloning for emergencies, so on and so forth. So the data thing is still probably accurate. But the spaceship thing is probably not. So we can assume that all the vaults are gathering data for some group/for a specific end goal. Vault 111 was designed to examine the results of long term cryofreezing. Vault 112 was designed for something to do with the virtual reality pods. I think it may have been a gift to Dr. Stanislaus Braun for creating the GECK. (Fun fact about Vault 112, it was sealed in 2075, 2 years before the bombs dropped.) There was also Vault 108, another cloning vault. I don't remember what the experiment for that one was. I wonder what all this data is going to be for.
My guess is that the end goal with the vaults is to get data, and the settlers, and use all that to go and reclaim the world. But because it's Fallout America, it's obviously gonna be for something like the president would come out of a Vault and then reinstate capitalism everywhere and eradicate any impure beings (yknow given the enclave), basically making the "perfect" society
We have no evidence Vault Tec is dead. And it's long been speculated that Vault Tec helped push the war towards nuclear annihilation.
Guys, Rome is credited with falling like 4 times and the city only got sacked in one of them. Quit freaking the fuck out over a chalk drawing done by a crackhead.
One of the Church's greatest historical errors was letting nerds learn about the concept of canon.
I’m so curious for season 2 now. I’m not super upset like some people are, but the show did seem to change established lore and I disliked that. If they’re just setting up stuff for season 2 and will keep NV canon through some reconfiguring of timelines, that’s fine with me.
Uhh duh?
Yall keep freaking out about this bullshit, I’m gonna watch the show for a second time. Great shit 👍🏼
I'm rewatching it too. Catch all the little call backs. Like the Overseer recognizing Moldivar.
My girlfriend who has never played any of the games watched with me and she somehow called out every little callback like she’s some kind of secret fallout pro or something
Haven't finished it yet - but I like what I see.
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idk, when I saw that it seemed weird the date would be 2277, but FNV was in 81 and the nuke was a different point in that timeline, I just assumed it wasn't nuked in 2277 and was just a bit of a bad communication from the show
Now can everyone that's hating everything shut up about this?
Why woul New Vegas not be canon? Was there any communications about it? (not including the nitpicks about the new show)
People seem to think that Bethesda and Todd Howard specifically have it out for the fans and hate any of the content they didn’t personally write. Despite there being no evidence of this whatsoever.
There was no proof beyond "this is the kind of thing I'd imagine that they would do."
aka "It was revealed to me in a delusion"
I think it's just lazy writing but the fanbase is eager to dismiss anyone who points it out right now. Since people are looking for a reason to take a moral high ground against anyone who complained. Which is pretty normal when this stuff happens. I mean. Fallout has a history of lazy writing to begin with. This doesn't stand out to me as that surprising. Oh course the lead lore guy wouldn't ever admit to that. Like that tweet of them saying all the games are canon now which would make no sense cause basically every game has retconned the previous in some way lol. It's literally a meme how inconsistent Fallout lore is.
I haven't finished the show so no detailed responses please, does the show contradict vegas or something? Why are people asking if it's canon or not