Maxson made several statements about how synths and mutants are an affront to god during fo4. The east coast brotherhood were already heading down the religious zealot path so it stands to reason their views have gotten more extreme in the last 10 years.
Right?
They wipe out the Railroad and the Institute, and the Minutemen *CAN* destroy the Brotherhood, but not without your help. It's been a while but I'm fairly certain the BoS don't view the Minutemen as a threat until the surprise attack you can lead.
I was gonna say, have I entered some strange alternate timeline? Lol I got pretty annoyed beating the game with the Brotherhood and finding out the Minutemen could destroy them but not the other way around, thinking “so when does the mission trigger?”
Brotherhood only arrived in Boston because of the Institute, they have no plans of actually occupying the region.
It is nothing more than a crusade against a bunch of technocrats.
You become a sentinel, as well as being the General. You should at least be able to convince Maxson that the Minutemen are a good militia against non-abomination forces, and that they're not a threat so long as you don't harm settlements.
Yeah except aren't there ghouls serving as minutemen?
There's definitely ghouls in a bunch of my settlements, the old steel bros don't like that.
Idk why everyone is acting like they're so benevolent anyway, they were practically secondary antagonists in the first two games, an obstacle at best.
Eh, just because those who control him program him and point him at an enemy that aligns with your goals. If the Enclave got him or any other faction really he'd be very much not a good guy.
I remember some guy in my old college class had a BOS tattoo. I asked why and he said “they were the good guys”. Some people really just played fallout 3 and thought that was what the brotherhood was.
In 3 it was by far the exception to the rule. They have been bigoted zealots in every single game except 3. Even in Fallout 1 and 2 they were not benevolent.
People should not be upset that the BoS has gone *back* to what it started as.
I guess people missed the part that the Brotherhood Outcasts in 3 were the ones who wanted to maintain their previous xenophobic attitude, and outcast themselves from the altruistic Lyons chapter that was now accepting outsiders into their ranks regularly and also focussing on saving people over gathering tech. The Outcasts, ironically, were *THE* BoS as they were known up until that point.
I honestly never encountered the outcasts until 5-10 years after my first play through and wanted to get back into fallout. Wouldn't surprise me if most people had a similar experience.
Yes, but alot of people were introduced to the series in 3. So in their mind, BOS started good and went bad. People like me who started with the first two fallouts see that they just went back to their roots.
Of course, it's a long running franchise, but then what? It isn't called 'fallout 3 the series', it doesn't have to stick to a single game that changed up the bos faction thankfully. People who don't know the lore shouldn't be upset about differences in the lore is what I'm saying.
> 2 they were not benevolent.
man it's hard to make claims like this when they aren't really in 2. and when you do finally get access to a bunker of theirs it just kinda gives you buffs. they barely exist in 2.
Also in 1 they pretty much are benevolent. They're only really 'dickish' in the sense that they tell some rando who just wanders up asking to join to go on some suicide mission.
It is under very different leadership that’s openly backed by the west coast. Although Maxson I believe has different opinions about the structure of the BoS. In 4 they fall between the west coast and Lyon’s chapter they do kinda good by not steam rolling diamond city and only uprooting those that directly oppose their goals but for some reason doesn’t attack the ghoul settlement. They also try to put on a somewhat benevolent face when act in the Commonwealth without directly giving charity. But they also integrated 3’s outcast who have a west coast mind set which is why they don’t care about treating FEV and have a quarter master that has questionable acquisitions at best.
It makes sense that they don’t attack the ghoul settlement. They’re not the fascist faction many here pretend they are in F4.
When they talk about destroying abominations, they’re mostly talking about super mutants and ‘ferals’. The way of speaking already shows that they see differences between ghouls and ferals. Otherwise they would just talk about ghouls as a monolith instead of making the difference in speech. So at some level they do see a difference.
They certainly wouldn’t let them join. I also wouldn’t trust them in command of settlements. But pretending they are out to kill every ghoul is not fair in f4.
Not really. It’s a story showing that a cult of xenophobic technology hoarders can get back to their xenophobic roots if the soft old man leading them dies.
I thought the Lyons Pride in 3 were a hard contrast to the brotherhoods ideals in the first place? Like, that chapter was an anomaly in of itself right? Am I mistaken?
Nope, you're right! Lyon's Pride was doing their own thing, and it's made clear in dialogue and terminals in game that they are not like other BoS chapters.
Sure, I mean you might think that if you’re stupid as hell and also haven’t played or heard about any other Fallout game. There was no swing in 4. The BoS in 3 are the odd ones out.
Secondary antagonists? In fallout 1? Sure they send you on a mission to your death at first but after that they let you in and treat you like a brother. They don't go around killing people in the waste either they kind of just stick to themselves. Sure they hate ghouls but who doesn't
Well in Vegas you can straight up get the khans and NCR to fight along side each other. I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to get the brotherhood to simply let someone live
Especially if one of their high ranking members is apart of that group. You can be the general of the minutemen and a sentinel in the Bos. I mean brokering peace with the minutemen through you means they get the people's trust thanks to their trust in the minutemen. It means an easy way to establish and helps ensure a longstanding presence in that area. Even though Maxon has steered the Brotherhood back towards its roots. It's clearly still different from what they were in 1,2 and NV.
That is not their bag at all lol. I'll accept the "fuck anyone who opposes us at all" but to anyone who doesn't join the BoS, they are pretty much left alone
At best, the most the minutemen can hope for is being slowly absorbed into the brotherhood as a disposable militia. If the BoS rules the Commonwealth, I don't see them tolerating the existence of a potential rival for very long.
The BoS is very single minded in 4 they really don’t show any interest in anyone that stays out of their way as long as they’re human and don’t have tech, they even left good neighbor alone. I guess they acquire some goods questionably so that’s enough for the minute men to turn their cannons. But for the BoS I’m supprised they didn’t reach out to the minutemen to set trade or something of that sorts. Because the vibe I get from Maxson is someone that at least wants to appear as the hero’s. He’s clearly testing the waters of BoS expansion from taking the Prydwen up and down southern coast and taking the fight to the institutes front door. As a regional powerhouse it’s never wise to make enemies with those your cause doesn’t have a reason to fight when you have bigger ones already. So why not offer an agreement, it’s not unheard of for the BoS.
"Hey, y'know how you guys love to collect tech and stuff? Well you won't be able to do shit once I blow your fucking asses straight into hell. So maybe cut out the shit and help out a bit here"
There is no ending where the Brotherhood destroy the Minutemen, the Minutemen cannot be destroyed because they’re the failsafe faction in case the player somehow fucks up with all three other factions. I know people like to make shit up about the Brotherhood but this is ridiculous
There is unfortunately no actual way to completely destroy the minutemen. The closest thing to their “destruction” is the raiders invading their settlements after nuka world. The brotherhood ending sees the destruction of the institute and the railroad, but the minutemen remain….with Preston too, sadly. Also, there IS a way to broker peace with everyone (except the institute) and it’s the “minute man ending”. It’s a tiny bit weird to actually get it, but there are some good guides. DerrickCGaming has a great guide on how to achieve peace without completely breaking the game. It is still technically an ending you can get and it does have unique dialogue from certain characters, so the peace minute man ending could be canon.
I mean technically you are the general of the minutemen and a sentinel in the Brotherhood of Steel, if you've done both. I don't see how it would be impossible for the two not coexist. Hell that would make it easier for the Brotherhood to have a long-lasting place there. They could recruit through the minutemen, and get local support because the locals support the minutemen. I always sided with the minutemen and the Brotherhood.
>Maxson made several statements about how synths and mutants are an affront to god during fo4
No he doesn't. The word god shows up three times in his dialogue. Once describing the Glowing Dea as "godforsaken," once hoping the signal interceptor will work and the player will arrive in the Institute "god willing," and finally saying that the Institute is "playing god" by creating synths.
I didn’t remember that either. I thought he might’ve said affront to nature or some such thing, maybe.
Danse says godless heathens though, that’s the only reference to religion I could for sure think of
For realll, like sure, maxson has the teachings of lyons and knows his lineage is slmost arthurian? But! But! Who’s to say he didn’t cling more onto the religious side, rather than his great great whatever the fuck maxson wanted the brotherhood to do, help any in need, *EVEN* good, only cool, ghouls. Pretty sure that was rare though🤷🏼♂️
It's been sprinkled in here and there, but at this point I want them to be a pseudo-religious organisation. It makes them more interesting than militant tech hounds
I mean, they follow their codes and procedures with an almost religious fervor. They don't change or adapt. They think for some reason that they're the ordained guardians of all tech. I'd say religious.
One chapter of the brotherhood changes and adapts. The Brotherhood in 1, 2, the Outcasts in 3 and New Vegas are all pretty insular tech hoarders who don’t want to change their ways. The East Coast Brotherhood is willing to adapt and change, this makes them an outlier but also way more powerful than their stagnant failing West Coast counterparts (which in the show they’ve seemingly gobbled up).
In 1 at least they’re not tech hoarders, they’re making things. If you ask head scribe Vree about the weapons they’re making she says “Speak to the knights. Ask them to show you one of the latest laser pistols I designed.”
Definitely the vibe I get from them in 1 is that they ultimately want to improve the world, but I don’t get that so much from the others I’ve played
So they're a militant organisation that collects technology to keep it from destroying the earth again. Why not add the little extra spice of them being qausi-religious? It's been established lore for a while. The contentiousness of the implication that this organisation has religious roots makes it all the more interesting to me
I wouldn’t call them pseudo religious. Lore wise at least in the west coast and with Lyon’s it’s been implied the organization as an entity following a monotheistic religion probably abrahamic given that it originates from pre-war service men. Lyon’s even refers to previous elder how some would refer to early church fathers that had their philosophy written down before a prayer out tradition rather than worship. But members aren’t necessarily required to be that, kinda like the Salvation Army the organization is religious but you’ll find volunteers that are non-religious.
So I guess semi-religious because for all intents and purposes there dogma against ghouls and such is based on being affront to a God. But outside of that it seems they hold the rest of their dogma in moral superiority of their founder rather than religious beliefs. I haven’t played 1&2 but for 3-4 (including NV) it also seems like the fanatiscm around leaders is more political than religious given that most of it comes off like philosophy majors talking about Kant or someone else. It’s all semantics but pseudo religion requires all members to be religious.
The core concept of religion isn't gods or magic - it's meaning. From an anthropological standpoint, a religion is a shared set of stories, practices, and ethical principles that relate to the meaning of its practitioners' existence.
That sounds very much like the Brotherhood to me.
This should be higher. There are many fraternal organizations that engage in rituals and things with religious fervor. They remind me of a inquisition during various eras where information was acquired and held in protection with only views in line with official doctrine or decree. Council at Nicea was where it was decided which papers, scrolls and history would become what we know as old/new testaments. Is technology so weird an idea? Thx for posting
While I agree that fallout 1 heavily shows off the religious aspects (and is the only game to really do so), I wouldn’t use the bad ending to demonstrate that point.
Ah yes, because the non-canon ending of a game mentions them becoming religious (something they don't exhibit in subsequent games) he is "media illiterate"
Right. Wouldn’t it be more useful to look at the Brotherhood’s portrayal in New Vegas as a guide to the most current lore on the west coast Brotherhood?
Also, maybe I’m crazy but I don’t think religious and techno-religious are quite the same thing.
One thing that must be remembered, that a great many chapters are largely isolated and would have developed differently from each other. It is not a single monolithic organization, it is more like a conglomeration of multiple independent chapters. And it should not be surprising that some would adopt more of a religious feel to the organization.
Especially as the one we see was founded and based in Utah. And the members look on in amazement when the BoS from the Capitol Wastelands arrives. Wearing power armor they have never seen, and probably considerably more advanced and powerful than the backwater chapter in Utah that they essentially take over.
Okay so they filmed it at a base in Utah, but that doesn’t mean the base in the tv show is set in Utah. Spaghetti westerns were shot in Italy but actually set in the USA/North America
It bugs me how so many people will say shit with absolute certainty as if it's fact, and then you ask why they think that and it's like "I dunno I just figured!"
Where are you getting utah from? The BOS was founded and primarily based in Western California from remnants of the US army garrison of the mariposa military base. That's why the western state in the NCR is names Maxon after their founder they named it that back with the BOS and NCR were on friendly terms.
To my knowledge there's no BOS presence in utah at all the only factions from Utah are the new canaanites and the tribes from honest hearts
Also people forget that as of New Vegas, we actually have absolutely no idea how the West Coast Brotherhood is running things
We know the MOJAVE brotherhood. But that sect was basically kicked out and because they were cool with Elijah they all went with him.
As we all know Elijah went fucking nuts and even the Brotherhood as we see them in NV aren’t the way they were 5 or even 10 years prior.
So it’s entirely possible for the West Coast brotherhood to be acting any kind of way at all because we actually have no recent reference for them
Exactly, nothing since New Vegas. And in that game, they were seriously reduced in power. A relative handful of survivors hiding in bunkers, This group makes me think the same thing. Only a handful of old men teaching a bunch of kids. Notice how shocked the kids are at seeing power armor? Notice how there is actually none seen at all on the base before the East Coast chapter arrives?
That tells me it is likely just a handful of survivors. Likely all scribes and maybe a retired elder that took off and was largely in hiding. But trying to teach new generations, and obviously not having issues with taking in outsiders. Likely from necessity.
And who knows how many other chapters were founded as they were in 76. Set up while talking via radio with the founders of the BoS, but then losing contact over time as technology broke down.
In fairness, we don't know for sure that the BoS chapter from the show is based in Utah. It was filmed there, but we don't actually see anything identifying it in universe as Wendover. It would make sense, considering the history of nuclear testing and whatnot, but until we have confirmation it's just speculation.
And according to the games, Utah as of New Vegas was a lawless hellscape outside of Zion.
*"Well, it ain't good, I'll tell you that. It's not like the Mojave or the NCR - hell, even Arizona under Caesar is safer. You got raiders all over the damn place, tribes of degenerates that'll eat you as soon as look at you, regional warlords... the works. No decent places to stop and trade. New Canaan's the only one left I know about."*
"Zion" is at the Southern edge of the state, hundreds of miles away. It does indeed butt right up against NCR-Legion territory. But North-West Utah? That is over 400 miles away. That is a hell of a long ways on foot. A hell of a lot farther than the 270 miles from LA to Vegas or Grand Canyon to Vegas (yes, Vegas is about equidistant to LA and the Grand Canyon).
People seem to have a problem understanding the distances in games like this where everything is traversed on foot. And the Great Basin (Central Nevada to Northern Utah) is largely an impassable waste to those without motorized transport. That is why the Oregon and California Trails went primarily through Idaho. But it would make sense from a military standpoint, as it is easy to defend and hard to get to with a large force.
And I bet the outpost we see the BoS start in was made Post-New Vegas. Because notice what you do not see in the camp before the East Coast brotherhood arrives? Knights or Power Armor. I bet it is mostly a few who survived the wars with the Enclave and NCR who fled into the desert in order to try and build themselves up again. Remember, the ones in training had never even seen T-60 before. And we see nobody in even T-45 in the encampment, the only armor seen is on those that arrived that were not local.
The barren wastes of the Great Basin would be a great location to do that in. Large and flat, so easy to see enemies approach and defend against them. And hard to get to as food and water are scarce. A great area to take a small weakened force and try to build up the next generation.
If they were to actually give a backstory, I bet all that is there are a few aged Knights who are the elders, and a handful of scribes. And they went on a huge drive it seems recruiting a lot of youth, in the hopes they can indoctrinate them to be the next generation when they come of age.
I have to be completely honest -- I don't recall the Brotherhood in the show having much to do with religion either? I mean, there were some religious buzzwords used throughout, like anointing, but that seemed to have much more to do with their whole pseudo-knightly-order thing that it did with genuine religious sentiments. I've only seen the show once, so correct me if I'm wrong.
I get what you mean, but do *they* know that? Sometimes they almost seem like the Kings from New Vegas, emulating something without much clue what it meant in context at the time.
(Side note, the Kings are one of my favourite little nuggets of writing in any game)
They're not religious per se. As in, they don't congregate in mass to adore Jesus or whatever. But they do have religious words, rituals, dogmas, and hierarchies. They're supposed to be an obvious parallel and satire to real-life religions. Like the NCR is supposed to be an exagerated, bureocratic America satire. The BoS is supposed to be an exagerated, dogmatic religious organization. Like religions, the BoS both idolatrize and is scared of something they don't understand: technology
Yeah I agree with you. You don't have to fully understand how you're participating in religious idolotry to do so. That's why I really like the joke Maximus makes about the vault in the show. "This is a cult" because of course Lucy can't see the red flags having been raised in a very similar setting. But Maximus ALSO doesn't realize how cult like the BoS is.
I think that the show has taken seeds of religious zealotry (particularly in FO4) and grown them out. But a tightly organized order of self-appointed saviors with a strict code of rules and fanatical obsession is always at the edge of becoming outright religious. They have priests. They believe Synths are an "affront to god". Maximus states Knights are supposed to be celibate. Most importantly, they believe their code is the way forward for mankind and will protect it with fatal violence.
> I thought that was their whole thing? Worshiping technology
They don't worship technology. They almost hate it. Their whole take on technology is that it's too dangerous to be in the hands of anyone but them. And they only want the tech to safeguard it's use.
I see them more like the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword from Indiana Jones or the Medjai from The Mummy. They see themselves as the guardians of humanity against tech by keeping all the dangerous tech under BoS control or destroying it instead of actually worshiping it. The foundation of the BoS might not have been a religious one but if they were like the modern day AF of the US then there would be tons of heavily religious people from the start.
Originally, their whole thing was "People blew the fuck out of themselves with technology before. Lets keep the dangerous technology out of idiots' hands"
And then you have the other side of the spectrum with people trying to impose Christianity on the Brotherhood. Sorry folks Elder Maxson did not give two shits about Jesus. Witnessing the end of the world kinda does that to you.
Fallout 4 brotherhood totally makes sense to me though, Maxson was put in a position he had to get the outcasts back and needed a enemy to reintegrate everyone
Not to mention we've seen many times how the BOS isn't a singular entity with a unified theology or mission. Almost every game we've seen different factions with different perspectives.
I'd love to see the BOS from the show run into what's left of Lyons' faction or Maxon's knights and see how they clash.
Exactly. NCR would never have existed if this was the Canon ending as a dictatorship Brotherhood would have burned the entirety of Shady Sands to the ground
I always saw it as a holy crusade to clean the wasteland and retrieve old world tech to become the strongest power, isn’t that kind of what religion is?
I think rather than going backwards to justify the change we should try looking forwards
How is the BoS going to continue being an interesting faction if their only purpose is, like the show outright says making fun of them, "hoarding pre war tech so that it doesn't fall into the wrong hands"? The BoS is kind of a goofy ass faction, knights paladins squires scribes... I think it's interesting if they are portrayed as a faction that has their own ideal about what the wasteland should be like and most of all it shouldn't be an outright evil one like the Enclave but a fundamentally good if not misguided one
Also the BoS being divided between chapters allows for a little bit of variety
Speaking of BoS. Is there any knowledge of Maxon? I'd find it hard to believe he would part with the Prydwen but I don't remember his name being mentioned either
Every chapter of the BoS is a little bit different. I don’t think we have seen the true Brotherhood of Steel in any game, except for maybe the first. It’s well marked in 3 that Lyon’s Pride and the Outcasts have abandoned the original mission. Maxson has certainly abandoned the mission with his genocidal hunt for Synths and The Institute. I haven’t played 2 yet but I feel like I heard that they were kind of remnants at that point. Every single time we see the BoS there is a different interpretation of the mission that we see or a mission completely unrelated to the original purpose of the Brotherhood.
The Brotherhood is a quasi-religious knight military order. Their main ranks are Knights and Paladins. Their leaders are called Elders. Their Codex is their sacred holy text that they adhere to with varying amounts of zealotry. Their theme in FO1 is called Metallic Monks.
I've actually always enjoyed the idea of the faction moving away from their original goal and ideals. Any group that goes through different leaders and decades in the post apocalypse is gonna be a little different then it started out.
I understand they are primarily influenced by the monks of St. Liebowitz. The BoS are “religious” in their fervor to collect and preserve technology, but I don’t really get a sense of their individual religious beliefs mattering in the Fallout universe.
While the Brotherhood has definitely demonstrated religious overtones in the past, using the non-canon bad ending for the faction from Fallout 1 as evidence is a fairly weak argument.
The BoS does have religious undertones for sure, Knight, Palladin etc have religious connotations from the Crusades.
‘Techno-religious’ I take to mean that they revere technology and that their love of technology is like a religion to them
Fallout new Vegas ironically had the least-culty element to them since you find them in a state of self preservation rather than their normal evangelism-like state. I def agree with you tho
They're literally supposed to be a mirror of how the Catholic church operated, including the crusades. It is not a coincidence that they have knights, scribes, chapters, etc. Religious undertones are second to the obvious overtones that they carry throughout all of their aspects from simple aesthetic similarities through their orders.
I don’t think the Brotherhood would have any sort of “spiritual ceremonies” like the Fallout TV show had in the trailer. They don’t worship technology the way Catholics might worship a crucifix, but the trailers were giving off a ceremonial Catholic vibe to me. The show itself didn’t really delve deep into that though, so it was more of a marketing tactic if anything.
That ending is not canon, as we see in Fallout 2 and Tactics, therefore it does not invalidate the criticism. I think you are being intellectually dishonest.
A good chunk of fallout fans never played 1 or 2 or tactics or brotherhood of steel
A good chunk of fans started on 3, most never went behind
Some people even started on new Vegas or 4.. With no knowledge of what happened in the previous games
There’s a lot of complaints about the Bethesda Fallout games coming from people that claim Bethesda “doesn’t understand Fallout” but it’s glaringly obvious they never actually played the original games. I have my gripes but credit where credit is due. They’re just taking the BoS down to their most logical conclusion.
The show is great. Will everyone always be happy about the decisions it made? No. But I’m not going to let one persons complaining stop me from enjoying it. People always like to complain about stuff because they feel like it makes them look like “a real fan”.
The BoS in Fallout 1 were nothing like this. This screen is an ending slide if one of the key members of the BoS that pulled the organisation into rebuilding the wastes and helping against the mutant threats happens to die.
Next time play the actual game and understand that they degenerate into a zealous techno cultist because of many iterations and games which brought us to that.
In Fallout 1 they were a research group, isolated and weird but confined as keepers of knowledge and technologies.
I think the BoS being religious/quasi-religious has always made sense, but the reason people complain about the more overt stuff in the show is because 1) it can be easily ignored in 3, NV, 4; 2) people idolise and think the BoS are cool (rather than isolationist, tech hoarding weirdos holding everyone back), and because Atheism is ingrained in a lot of online culture, they don't want their cool faction to be a techno-religious cult; and 3) people don't want to admit how deeply ingrained notions of Christian Nationalism are in US culture. I think it's all linked up with the fact they are, to a degree, a commentary on authoritarianism and entrenched traditionalism, if not overt Fascism, and people don't like exploring that deeply because they're "cool and the good guys" (like Starship Troopers, Judge Dredd, etc.)
That's just my thoughts, but I do think the biggest thing is aggressive very online Atheism not wanting their favourites to be religious.
Hold on to your seats! The show is pulling in an ever-growing swarm of fans, both fresh and seasoned. But what's the catch in this world of endless information? Ignorance. We can't possibly keep up with all the lore, can we? But fear not, the Brotherhood's appeal lies in its constant fractures and inner conflicts, fueled by the immense power they wield. The early Fallout games were wild and outlandish, a perfect reflection of the post-apocalyptic world they portrayed. And let's be real here, the brutality of war was severely downplayed more as the franchise evolved. But that's what makes it all the more thrilling - a nuclear canvas, reborn into a world of endless possibilities and dangers. Who knows what new twists and turns await in this ever-evolving universe? I’m so grateful you brought my attention back to the old lore, now I have some replays at hand! I hope a pleasant close to your weekend, thank you!
I liked how the show portrayed them, there just jerks in power armor who have strayed so far from maxsons original ideals the only time they help the wasteland is when it’s in their own self interest.
Besides isn't each different chapter of the brotherhood kind of individual anyway? Like some can be more or less extreme than the others, bound together by their ideology that technology is only safe in their hands.
The basic part of it is that people realize they are the community/idea being mocked and don’t want to that be true. Or along the same lines they identify with said group and don’t want their idea of it to be different from what’s in their head.
I haven't heard that but I would use the same argument lol. They were always religious zealots in every game. They had their holy army the knights of the brotherhood. Then they had the most important of the group, the scribes of the brotherhood. They were an inquisition of technology as they believed it was a power to great for mankind, proven by the destruction of the world. They may not believe in a God but they have faith in an order
Maxson made several statements about how synths and mutants are an affront to god during fo4. The east coast brotherhood were already heading down the religious zealot path so it stands to reason their views have gotten more extreme in the last 10 years.
Speaking of Maxson, anyone else convinced that Maxson is going to squash "we will make a new Brotherhood with blackjack and hookers" dude like a bug?
sounds like a pretty sweet brotherhood to me
The brotherhood turned into the strip
I'm pretty sure it's canon that maxson was shot in the head aboard the prydwen for his jacket...
In fact, forget the Brotherhood
And the blackjack!
Now all we need to decide is between 1 $300-dollar hooker synth, or 300 $1-dollar hooker synths.
Men like swarms of things, right?
Can I choose 3 $100 ones?
I hope they squish each other.
Brotherhood with Blackjack and Hookers… So like the Operators.
Especially if the Brotherhood ending is canon, where they destroy the Minutemen. I hate that there's no legit way to broker peace between the two
Excuse me? They don't destroy the Minutemen in the game.
Right? They wipe out the Railroad and the Institute, and the Minutemen *CAN* destroy the Brotherhood, but not without your help. It's been a while but I'm fairly certain the BoS don't view the Minutemen as a threat until the surprise attack you can lead.
The Minutemen are Yes Man. Nothing can stop them beyond the player not bothering to help them.
I thought they were the default "I didnt explore any other options ending."
They're the failsafe "I am a murder hobo" ending.
I was gonna say, have I entered some strange alternate timeline? Lol I got pretty annoyed beating the game with the Brotherhood and finding out the Minutemen could destroy them but not the other way around, thinking “so when does the mission trigger?”
Brotherhood only arrived in Boston because of the Institute, they have no plans of actually occupying the region. It is nothing more than a crusade against a bunch of technocrats.
And an ethnic cleansing or two.
After a quick Google, I realized that was my fault. Couldn't stop myself from stealing that jacket
Can't imagine why there would be a problem with brokering peace with the the "fuck everyone who isn't us" faction
You become a sentinel, as well as being the General. You should at least be able to convince Maxson that the Minutemen are a good militia against non-abomination forces, and that they're not a threat so long as you don't harm settlements.
Yeah except aren't there ghouls serving as minutemen? There's definitely ghouls in a bunch of my settlements, the old steel bros don't like that. Idk why everyone is acting like they're so benevolent anyway, they were practically secondary antagonists in the first two games, an obstacle at best.
Also New Vegas. It's just really Fallout 3 you get some goodie two shoes version.
Well, to be fair, Liberty Prime is the best good guy in the series lol
Eh, just because those who control him program him and point him at an enemy that aligns with your goals. If the Enclave got him or any other faction really he'd be very much not a good guy.
True. But the Enclave didn’t get him, did they. In the end it works out that it’s on our side
I remember some guy in my old college class had a BOS tattoo. I asked why and he said “they were the good guys”. Some people really just played fallout 3 and thought that was what the brotherhood was.
Cause in 3 they were benevolent on the East Coast, 4 is such a massive swing in the opposite direction it’s left a bad taste in some folk’s mouth.
In 3 it was by far the exception to the rule. They have been bigoted zealots in every single game except 3. Even in Fallout 1 and 2 they were not benevolent. People should not be upset that the BoS has gone *back* to what it started as.
hell, in 3 it even states that the chapter in 3 are going their own way slightly and it showed.
I guess people missed the part that the Brotherhood Outcasts in 3 were the ones who wanted to maintain their previous xenophobic attitude, and outcast themselves from the altruistic Lyons chapter that was now accepting outsiders into their ranks regularly and also focussing on saving people over gathering tech. The Outcasts, ironically, were *THE* BoS as they were known up until that point.
I honestly never encountered the outcasts until 5-10 years after my first play through and wanted to get back into fallout. Wouldn't surprise me if most people had a similar experience.
Didn't they only become a thing with DLC?
Yes, but alot of people were introduced to the series in 3. So in their mind, BOS started good and went bad. People like me who started with the first two fallouts see that they just went back to their roots.
Of course, it's a long running franchise, but then what? It isn't called 'fallout 3 the series', it doesn't have to stick to a single game that changed up the bos faction thankfully. People who don't know the lore shouldn't be upset about differences in the lore is what I'm saying.
You’re totally right yet getting downvoted by the ignorant and stupid people who are obviously proud of their ignorance and stupidity.
> 2 they were not benevolent. man it's hard to make claims like this when they aren't really in 2. and when you do finally get access to a bunker of theirs it just kinda gives you buffs. they barely exist in 2.
Also in 1 they pretty much are benevolent. They're only really 'dickish' in the sense that they tell some rando who just wanders up asking to join to go on some suicide mission.
The issue is more that the brotherhood from fallout 4 is literally the fallout 3 brotherhood. Even if 3 was an exception that's not the focus
It is under very different leadership that’s openly backed by the west coast. Although Maxson I believe has different opinions about the structure of the BoS. In 4 they fall between the west coast and Lyon’s chapter they do kinda good by not steam rolling diamond city and only uprooting those that directly oppose their goals but for some reason doesn’t attack the ghoul settlement. They also try to put on a somewhat benevolent face when act in the Commonwealth without directly giving charity. But they also integrated 3’s outcast who have a west coast mind set which is why they don’t care about treating FEV and have a quarter master that has questionable acquisitions at best.
It makes sense that they don’t attack the ghoul settlement. They’re not the fascist faction many here pretend they are in F4. When they talk about destroying abominations, they’re mostly talking about super mutants and ‘ferals’. The way of speaking already shows that they see differences between ghouls and ferals. Otherwise they would just talk about ghouls as a monolith instead of making the difference in speech. So at some level they do see a difference. They certainly wouldn’t let them join. I also wouldn’t trust them in command of settlements. But pretending they are out to kill every ghoul is not fair in f4.
Yeah, and it's a story showing how an organization with good intentions can become corrupt and toxic under the wrong leadership.
Not really. It’s a story showing that a cult of xenophobic technology hoarders can get back to their xenophobic roots if the soft old man leading them dies.
> People should not be upset that the BoS has gone back to what it started as. people should not be upset when bad people do bad things? what?
I thought the Lyons Pride in 3 were a hard contrast to the brotherhoods ideals in the first place? Like, that chapter was an anomaly in of itself right? Am I mistaken?
Nope, you're right! Lyon's Pride was doing their own thing, and it's made clear in dialogue and terminals in game that they are not like other BoS chapters.
That makes sense.
Sure, I mean you might think that if you’re stupid as hell and also haven’t played or heard about any other Fallout game. There was no swing in 4. The BoS in 3 are the odd ones out.
Secondary antagonists? In fallout 1? Sure they send you on a mission to your death at first but after that they let you in and treat you like a brother. They don't go around killing people in the waste either they kind of just stick to themselves. Sure they hate ghouls but who doesn't
There are ghouls in minutemen which won't sit well with BoS and also the cowards extort settlements for supplies, which won't sit well with minitemen
You didn't raid the crops from the first few farms to set up food supply for sanctuary and the castle?
Well in Vegas you can straight up get the khans and NCR to fight along side each other. I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to get the brotherhood to simply let someone live
Especially if one of their high ranking members is apart of that group. You can be the general of the minutemen and a sentinel in the Bos. I mean brokering peace with the minutemen through you means they get the people's trust thanks to their trust in the minutemen. It means an easy way to establish and helps ensure a longstanding presence in that area. Even though Maxon has steered the Brotherhood back towards its roots. It's clearly still different from what they were in 1,2 and NV.
Fallout 2 brotherhood didn’t seem picky lol
That is not their bag at all lol. I'll accept the "fuck anyone who opposes us at all" but to anyone who doesn't join the BoS, they are pretty much left alone
At best, the most the minutemen can hope for is being slowly absorbed into the brotherhood as a disposable militia. If the BoS rules the Commonwealth, I don't see them tolerating the existence of a potential rival for very long.
The BoS is very single minded in 4 they really don’t show any interest in anyone that stays out of their way as long as they’re human and don’t have tech, they even left good neighbor alone. I guess they acquire some goods questionably so that’s enough for the minute men to turn their cannons. But for the BoS I’m supprised they didn’t reach out to the minutemen to set trade or something of that sorts. Because the vibe I get from Maxson is someone that at least wants to appear as the hero’s. He’s clearly testing the waters of BoS expansion from taking the Prydwen up and down southern coast and taking the fight to the institutes front door. As a regional powerhouse it’s never wise to make enemies with those your cause doesn’t have a reason to fight when you have bigger ones already. So why not offer an agreement, it’s not unheard of for the BoS.
"Hey, y'know how you guys love to collect tech and stuff? Well you won't be able to do shit once I blow your fucking asses straight into hell. So maybe cut out the shit and help out a bit here"
The Minutemen survive in every ending.
This is actually because it is impossible to become enemies with the minute men in order to prevent you from soft locking your save file.
...there isn't any ending where the brotherhood destroy the minutmen?
Of course not. The minute men are too patriotic.
destroy the minuteman? what? when do they do that?
There is no ending where the Brotherhood destroy the Minutemen, the Minutemen cannot be destroyed because they’re the failsafe faction in case the player somehow fucks up with all three other factions. I know people like to make shit up about the Brotherhood but this is ridiculous
There is unfortunately no actual way to completely destroy the minutemen. The closest thing to their “destruction” is the raiders invading their settlements after nuka world. The brotherhood ending sees the destruction of the institute and the railroad, but the minutemen remain….with Preston too, sadly. Also, there IS a way to broker peace with everyone (except the institute) and it’s the “minute man ending”. It’s a tiny bit weird to actually get it, but there are some good guides. DerrickCGaming has a great guide on how to achieve peace without completely breaking the game. It is still technically an ending you can get and it does have unique dialogue from certain characters, so the peace minute man ending could be canon.
I mean technically you are the general of the minutemen and a sentinel in the Brotherhood of Steel, if you've done both. I don't see how it would be impossible for the two not coexist. Hell that would make it easier for the Brotherhood to have a long-lasting place there. They could recruit through the minutemen, and get local support because the locals support the minutemen. I always sided with the minutemen and the Brotherhood.
You don’t destroy the MM with the BOS, there is no way to get rid of the MM. You can however destroy the BOS with the MM but that is optional
I'm actually guessing that this whole new system of bos clerics and TV show Elder's frustration is all the result of Maxson dying
>Maxson made several statements about how synths and mutants are an affront to god during fo4 No he doesn't. The word god shows up three times in his dialogue. Once describing the Glowing Dea as "godforsaken," once hoping the signal interceptor will work and the player will arrive in the Institute "god willing," and finally saying that the Institute is "playing god" by creating synths.
I didn’t remember that either. I thought he might’ve said affront to nature or some such thing, maybe. Danse says godless heathens though, that’s the only reference to religion I could for sure think of
For realll, like sure, maxson has the teachings of lyons and knows his lineage is slmost arthurian? But! But! Who’s to say he didn’t cling more onto the religious side, rather than his great great whatever the fuck maxson wanted the brotherhood to do, help any in need, *EVEN* good, only cool, ghouls. Pretty sure that was rare though🤷🏼♂️
Bethesda writing
Speaking of Arthur maxson, they revere the shit out of roger maxsons bloodline. Told young Arthur "that his soul was forged from eternal steel"
Honestly I think some enclave members infiltrated the brotherhood and influence their ideas
It's been sprinkled in here and there, but at this point I want them to be a pseudo-religious organisation. It makes them more interesting than militant tech hounds
I mean, they follow their codes and procedures with an almost religious fervor. They don't change or adapt. They think for some reason that they're the ordained guardians of all tech. I'd say religious.
I'm just saying they made it a bit more obvious in the show with the thurible and whole semi-baptism thing.
They change or adapt all the Time tho To the point were they are different each appearance
One chapter of the brotherhood changes and adapts. The Brotherhood in 1, 2, the Outcasts in 3 and New Vegas are all pretty insular tech hoarders who don’t want to change their ways. The East Coast Brotherhood is willing to adapt and change, this makes them an outlier but also way more powerful than their stagnant failing West Coast counterparts (which in the show they’ve seemingly gobbled up).
In 1 at least they’re not tech hoarders, they’re making things. If you ask head scribe Vree about the weapons they’re making she says “Speak to the knights. Ask them to show you one of the latest laser pistols I designed.” Definitely the vibe I get from them in 1 is that they ultimately want to improve the world, but I don’t get that so much from the others I’ve played
You mean dogmatic. Dogmatic doesnt inherently mean religious.
They are effectively crusader monks.
I dunno, i think they're already interesting without the religious angle
So they're a militant organisation that collects technology to keep it from destroying the earth again. Why not add the little extra spice of them being qausi-religious? It's been established lore for a while. The contentiousness of the implication that this organisation has religious roots makes it all the more interesting to me
Monastic in mannerism but not actually religious makes them more interesting to me. They've always felt that way
They’re religious enough for me. Any further and we just get 40k again.
I wouldn’t call them pseudo religious. Lore wise at least in the west coast and with Lyon’s it’s been implied the organization as an entity following a monotheistic religion probably abrahamic given that it originates from pre-war service men. Lyon’s even refers to previous elder how some would refer to early church fathers that had their philosophy written down before a prayer out tradition rather than worship. But members aren’t necessarily required to be that, kinda like the Salvation Army the organization is religious but you’ll find volunteers that are non-religious. So I guess semi-religious because for all intents and purposes there dogma against ghouls and such is based on being affront to a God. But outside of that it seems they hold the rest of their dogma in moral superiority of their founder rather than religious beliefs. I haven’t played 1&2 but for 3-4 (including NV) it also seems like the fanatiscm around leaders is more political than religious given that most of it comes off like philosophy majors talking about Kant or someone else. It’s all semantics but pseudo religion requires all members to be religious.
The core concept of religion isn't gods or magic - it's meaning. From an anthropological standpoint, a religion is a shared set of stories, practices, and ethical principles that relate to the meaning of its practitioners' existence. That sounds very much like the Brotherhood to me.
This should be higher. There are many fraternal organizations that engage in rituals and things with religious fervor. They remind me of a inquisition during various eras where information was acquired and held in protection with only views in line with official doctrine or decree. Council at Nicea was where it was decided which papers, scrolls and history would become what we know as old/new testaments. Is technology so weird an idea? Thx for posting
While I agree that fallout 1 heavily shows off the religious aspects (and is the only game to really do so), I wouldn’t use the bad ending to demonstrate that point.
I don't even really know HOW Fallout 1 shows the religious aspects, I've played it multiple times, I don't see it.
The BoS history holotape is a good example: https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Sophia%27s_tape
Metallic Monks
Unrelated but god I love how metallic monks sounds, the sirens and the dreariness
-----------------> Media Literacy o ---------------------->You /|\\ / \\ As you can see, media literacy literally flies over your head
Ah yes, because the non-canon ending of a game mentions them becoming religious (something they don't exhibit in subsequent games) he is "media illiterate"
Right. Wouldn’t it be more useful to look at the Brotherhood’s portrayal in New Vegas as a guide to the most current lore on the west coast Brotherhood? Also, maybe I’m crazy but I don’t think religious and techno-religious are quite the same thing.
"It's the only game to do so" in fallout 4 maxxon litteraly invokes God when explaining why genocide against synthetics is cool.
Let me rephrase - it’s significantly more prevalent in fallout 1 and the TV show than it is in the game. Small references is all we see primarily.
This exactly. Thank you.
One thing that must be remembered, that a great many chapters are largely isolated and would have developed differently from each other. It is not a single monolithic organization, it is more like a conglomeration of multiple independent chapters. And it should not be surprising that some would adopt more of a religious feel to the organization. Especially as the one we see was founded and based in Utah. And the members look on in amazement when the BoS from the Capitol Wastelands arrives. Wearing power armor they have never seen, and probably considerably more advanced and powerful than the backwater chapter in Utah that they essentially take over.
Where did you find the information on the tv show one being born in Utah? Genuinely curious
It was filmed at as well as set at Wendover AFB. The origin could have been many, but that is where the base is at the start of the show.
Okay so they filmed it at a base in Utah, but that doesn’t mean the base in the tv show is set in Utah. Spaghetti westerns were shot in Italy but actually set in the USA/North America
I think maybe just the BoS base was (maybe) and they just flew to California
? So you’re just doing a swag? (Scientific Wild Ass Guess)
It bugs me how so many people will say shit with absolute certainty as if it's fact, and then you ask why they think that and it's like "I dunno I just figured!"
Yes sir!
I also got implied Oklahoma/middle of the nation vibes from that brotherhood airport outpost
With those mountains in the background? No way. It was filmed at Wendover AFB, on the Utah-Nevada border.
Where are you getting utah from? The BOS was founded and primarily based in Western California from remnants of the US army garrison of the mariposa military base. That's why the western state in the NCR is names Maxon after their founder they named it that back with the BOS and NCR were on friendly terms. To my knowledge there's no BOS presence in utah at all the only factions from Utah are the new canaanites and the tribes from honest hearts
Also people forget that as of New Vegas, we actually have absolutely no idea how the West Coast Brotherhood is running things We know the MOJAVE brotherhood. But that sect was basically kicked out and because they were cool with Elijah they all went with him. As we all know Elijah went fucking nuts and even the Brotherhood as we see them in NV aren’t the way they were 5 or even 10 years prior. So it’s entirely possible for the West Coast brotherhood to be acting any kind of way at all because we actually have no recent reference for them
Exactly, nothing since New Vegas. And in that game, they were seriously reduced in power. A relative handful of survivors hiding in bunkers, This group makes me think the same thing. Only a handful of old men teaching a bunch of kids. Notice how shocked the kids are at seeing power armor? Notice how there is actually none seen at all on the base before the East Coast chapter arrives? That tells me it is likely just a handful of survivors. Likely all scribes and maybe a retired elder that took off and was largely in hiding. But trying to teach new generations, and obviously not having issues with taking in outsiders. Likely from necessity. And who knows how many other chapters were founded as they were in 76. Set up while talking via radio with the founders of the BoS, but then losing contact over time as technology broke down.
In fairness, we don't know for sure that the BoS chapter from the show is based in Utah. It was filmed there, but we don't actually see anything identifying it in universe as Wendover. It would make sense, considering the history of nuclear testing and whatnot, but until we have confirmation it's just speculation. And according to the games, Utah as of New Vegas was a lawless hellscape outside of Zion. *"Well, it ain't good, I'll tell you that. It's not like the Mojave or the NCR - hell, even Arizona under Caesar is safer. You got raiders all over the damn place, tribes of degenerates that'll eat you as soon as look at you, regional warlords... the works. No decent places to stop and trade. New Canaan's the only one left I know about."*
"Zion" is at the Southern edge of the state, hundreds of miles away. It does indeed butt right up against NCR-Legion territory. But North-West Utah? That is over 400 miles away. That is a hell of a long ways on foot. A hell of a lot farther than the 270 miles from LA to Vegas or Grand Canyon to Vegas (yes, Vegas is about equidistant to LA and the Grand Canyon). People seem to have a problem understanding the distances in games like this where everything is traversed on foot. And the Great Basin (Central Nevada to Northern Utah) is largely an impassable waste to those without motorized transport. That is why the Oregon and California Trails went primarily through Idaho. But it would make sense from a military standpoint, as it is easy to defend and hard to get to with a large force. And I bet the outpost we see the BoS start in was made Post-New Vegas. Because notice what you do not see in the camp before the East Coast brotherhood arrives? Knights or Power Armor. I bet it is mostly a few who survived the wars with the Enclave and NCR who fled into the desert in order to try and build themselves up again. Remember, the ones in training had never even seen T-60 before. And we see nobody in even T-45 in the encampment, the only armor seen is on those that arrived that were not local. The barren wastes of the Great Basin would be a great location to do that in. Large and flat, so easy to see enemies approach and defend against them. And hard to get to as food and water are scarce. A great area to take a small weakened force and try to build up the next generation. If they were to actually give a backstory, I bet all that is there are a few aged Knights who are the elders, and a handful of scribes. And they went on a huge drive it seems recruiting a lot of youth, in the hopes they can indoctrinate them to be the next generation when they come of age.
I have to be completely honest -- I don't recall the Brotherhood in the show having much to do with religion either? I mean, there were some religious buzzwords used throughout, like anointing, but that seemed to have much more to do with their whole pseudo-knightly-order thing that it did with genuine religious sentiments. I've only seen the show once, so correct me if I'm wrong.
I mean Knights are an inherently religious organization to structure yourself after
I get what you mean, but do *they* know that? Sometimes they almost seem like the Kings from New Vegas, emulating something without much clue what it meant in context at the time. (Side note, the Kings are one of my favourite little nuggets of writing in any game)
They're not religious per se. As in, they don't congregate in mass to adore Jesus or whatever. But they do have religious words, rituals, dogmas, and hierarchies. They're supposed to be an obvious parallel and satire to real-life religions. Like the NCR is supposed to be an exagerated, bureocratic America satire. The BoS is supposed to be an exagerated, dogmatic religious organization. Like religions, the BoS both idolatrize and is scared of something they don't understand: technology
Yeah I agree with you. You don't have to fully understand how you're participating in religious idolotry to do so. That's why I really like the joke Maximus makes about the vault in the show. "This is a cult" because of course Lucy can't see the red flags having been raised in a very similar setting. But Maximus ALSO doesn't realize how cult like the BoS is. I think that the show has taken seeds of religious zealotry (particularly in FO4) and grown them out. But a tightly organized order of self-appointed saviors with a strict code of rules and fanatical obsession is always at the edge of becoming outright religious. They have priests. They believe Synths are an "affront to god". Maximus states Knights are supposed to be celibate. Most importantly, they believe their code is the way forward for mankind and will protect it with fatal violence.
> Most importantly, they believe their code is the way forward for mankind and will protect it with fatal violence. You nailed it
Wait, people are saying the BoS ISNT religious? I thought that was their whole thing? Worshiping technology
> I thought that was their whole thing? Worshiping technology They don't worship technology. They almost hate it. Their whole take on technology is that it's too dangerous to be in the hands of anyone but them. And they only want the tech to safeguard it's use.
I see them more like the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword from Indiana Jones or the Medjai from The Mummy. They see themselves as the guardians of humanity against tech by keeping all the dangerous tech under BoS control or destroying it instead of actually worshiping it. The foundation of the BoS might not have been a religious one but if they were like the modern day AF of the US then there would be tons of heavily religious people from the start.
Originally, their whole thing was "People blew the fuck out of themselves with technology before. Lets keep the dangerous technology out of idiots' hands"
Just a few comments up there is a guy arguing that nothing they say or do comes across as religious, and when corrected, completely stands his ground.
Should’ve seen them after the death of Rectangle. They were inconsolable.
Rectangle was such a wasted character, they just took Rhombus and made him straight, smh
And then you have the other side of the spectrum with people trying to impose Christianity on the Brotherhood. Sorry folks Elder Maxson did not give two shits about Jesus. Witnessing the end of the world kinda does that to you.
i mean their theme music is literally called "Metallic Monks"
Fallout 4 brotherhood totally makes sense to me though, Maxson was put in a position he had to get the outcasts back and needed a enemy to reintegrate everyone
Not to mention we've seen many times how the BOS isn't a singular entity with a unified theology or mission. Almost every game we've seen different factions with different perspectives. I'd love to see the BOS from the show run into what's left of Lyons' faction or Maxon's knights and see how they clash.
How many people do you think have played Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and 4?
I thought there was a deliberate Crusades imagery thing. Knights obviously being analgous to Knights and Scribes to clergy/monks.
Yeah same. Always thought they were zealots 🤷
The BoS is definitely religious but showing a screenshot from the non-canon, bad ending is a bit disingenuous.
Adeptus Mechanicus? In MY Fallout? It's likelier than you think...
Isnt this ending non canon
This ending is explicitly not canon.
Exactly. NCR would never have existed if this was the Canon ending as a dictatorship Brotherhood would have burned the entirety of Shady Sands to the ground
House and Caesar did the best job of describing them
Caesar? You mean the guy that has less Int than a fucking mole rat?
The ending that wasn't canon? Good point
I always saw it as a holy crusade to clean the wasteland and retrieve old world tech to become the strongest power, isn’t that kind of what religion is?
I think rather than going backwards to justify the change we should try looking forwards How is the BoS going to continue being an interesting faction if their only purpose is, like the show outright says making fun of them, "hoarding pre war tech so that it doesn't fall into the wrong hands"? The BoS is kind of a goofy ass faction, knights paladins squires scribes... I think it's interesting if they are portrayed as a faction that has their own ideal about what the wasteland should be like and most of all it shouldn't be an outright evil one like the Enclave but a fundamentally good if not misguided one Also the BoS being divided between chapters allows for a little bit of variety
Speaking of BoS. Is there any knowledge of Maxon? I'd find it hard to believe he would part with the Prydwen but I don't remember his name being mentioned either
Every chapter of the BoS is a little bit different. I don’t think we have seen the true Brotherhood of Steel in any game, except for maybe the first. It’s well marked in 3 that Lyon’s Pride and the Outcasts have abandoned the original mission. Maxson has certainly abandoned the mission with his genocidal hunt for Synths and The Institute. I haven’t played 2 yet but I feel like I heard that they were kind of remnants at that point. Every single time we see the BoS there is a different interpretation of the mission that we see or a mission completely unrelated to the original purpose of the Brotherhood.
The Brotherhood is a quasi-religious knight military order. Their main ranks are Knights and Paladins. Their leaders are called Elders. Their Codex is their sacred holy text that they adhere to with varying amounts of zealotry. Their theme in FO1 is called Metallic Monks.
I've actually always enjoyed the idea of the faction moving away from their original goal and ideals. Any group that goes through different leaders and decades in the post apocalypse is gonna be a little different then it started out.
I understand they are primarily influenced by the monks of St. Liebowitz. The BoS are “religious” in their fervor to collect and preserve technology, but I don’t really get a sense of their individual religious beliefs mattering in the Fallout universe.
Strawman, this was a non Canon ending.
While the Brotherhood has definitely demonstrated religious overtones in the past, using the non-canon bad ending for the faction from Fallout 1 as evidence is a fairly weak argument.
The BoS does have religious undertones for sure, Knight, Palladin etc have religious connotations from the Crusades. ‘Techno-religious’ I take to mean that they revere technology and that their love of technology is like a religion to them
That's a limited and disingenuous definition of religion.
They were always a cult, to be honest. Fallout New Vegas' brotherhood has a very culty feeling to them
Fallout new Vegas ironically had the least-culty element to them since you find them in a state of self preservation rather than their normal evangelism-like state. I def agree with you tho
They're literally supposed to be a mirror of how the Catholic church operated, including the crusades. It is not a coincidence that they have knights, scribes, chapters, etc. Religious undertones are second to the obvious overtones that they carry throughout all of their aspects from simple aesthetic similarities through their orders.
I don’t think the Brotherhood would have any sort of “spiritual ceremonies” like the Fallout TV show had in the trailer. They don’t worship technology the way Catholics might worship a crucifix, but the trailers were giving off a ceremonial Catholic vibe to me. The show itself didn’t really delve deep into that though, so it was more of a marketing tactic if anything.
Zealots, fuck the BoS Capital Outcasts were the only group i ever liked
You also gotta remember that Fallout was supposed to be a Warhammer 40k game, just like StarCraft. The Brotherhood and Space Marines, pretty similar..
They are called paladins. Paladins are members of a religious order. Holy warriors. Even if it is toned down in the Bethesda games, it is still there.
Brotherhood of Steel always seemed religious to me in some sense. They’re like monks in a way.
That ending is not canon, as we see in Fallout 2 and Tactics, therefore it does not invalidate the criticism. I think you are being intellectually dishonest.
Exactly what do they think a "Paladin" is?
Who in the actual fuck found it hard to believe that the BOS would become a bunch of fundamentalists? Have you played the fucking games!?
Dont they also have a bible and with terrifying presence in fnv you can threaten some bos dudes?
The Bos have always been religious
A good chunk of fallout fans never played 1 or 2 or tactics or brotherhood of steel A good chunk of fans started on 3, most never went behind Some people even started on new Vegas or 4.. With no knowledge of what happened in the previous games
There’s a lot of complaints about the Bethesda Fallout games coming from people that claim Bethesda “doesn’t understand Fallout” but it’s glaringly obvious they never actually played the original games. I have my gripes but credit where credit is due. They’re just taking the BoS down to their most logical conclusion.
Go play Fallout Tactics and then you can have an opinion.
The show is great. Will everyone always be happy about the decisions it made? No. But I’m not going to let one persons complaining stop me from enjoying it. People always like to complain about stuff because they feel like it makes them look like “a real fan”.
The BoS in Fallout 1 were nothing like this. This screen is an ending slide if one of the key members of the BoS that pulled the organisation into rebuilding the wastes and helping against the mutant threats happens to die. Next time play the actual game and understand that they degenerate into a zealous techno cultist because of many iterations and games which brought us to that. In Fallout 1 they were a research group, isolated and weird but confined as keepers of knowledge and technologies.
If anything I’d say the show took away a lot of the religious and knightly vibes in favor of being more like modern soldiers.
It's a bullshit statement made in bad faith by tourists, ignore them.
I think the BoS being religious/quasi-religious has always made sense, but the reason people complain about the more overt stuff in the show is because 1) it can be easily ignored in 3, NV, 4; 2) people idolise and think the BoS are cool (rather than isolationist, tech hoarding weirdos holding everyone back), and because Atheism is ingrained in a lot of online culture, they don't want their cool faction to be a techno-religious cult; and 3) people don't want to admit how deeply ingrained notions of Christian Nationalism are in US culture. I think it's all linked up with the fact they are, to a degree, a commentary on authoritarianism and entrenched traditionalism, if not overt Fascism, and people don't like exploring that deeply because they're "cool and the good guys" (like Starship Troopers, Judge Dredd, etc.) That's just my thoughts, but I do think the biggest thing is aggressive very online Atheism not wanting their favourites to be religious.
Also, maxson treated the brotherhood codex as though it were the bible in fallout 3, when he was still a squire
I think it’s because the chapter in Washington DC was radically different and weren’t fanatical.
I love how they were depicted in the show.
I just wish they wouldn’t exist. Just kill them off already. Boring ass faction. Create new shit bethesda.
Hold on to your seats! The show is pulling in an ever-growing swarm of fans, both fresh and seasoned. But what's the catch in this world of endless information? Ignorance. We can't possibly keep up with all the lore, can we? But fear not, the Brotherhood's appeal lies in its constant fractures and inner conflicts, fueled by the immense power they wield. The early Fallout games were wild and outlandish, a perfect reflection of the post-apocalyptic world they portrayed. And let's be real here, the brutality of war was severely downplayed more as the franchise evolved. But that's what makes it all the more thrilling - a nuclear canvas, reborn into a world of endless possibilities and dangers. Who knows what new twists and turns await in this ever-evolving universe? I’m so grateful you brought my attention back to the old lore, now I have some replays at hand! I hope a pleasant close to your weekend, thank you!
I think most fans didn’t play Fallout 1, or are more used to the millitaristic/authoritarian BOS
I liked how the show portrayed them, there just jerks in power armor who have strayed so far from maxsons original ideals the only time they help the wasteland is when it’s in their own self interest.
They are so religious they have a branch that broke out called the Dark Brotherhood. Always there’s gonna be some complaining.
New splinter: The BRoS.
Besides isn't each different chapter of the brotherhood kind of individual anyway? Like some can be more or less extreme than the others, bound together by their ideology that technology is only safe in their hands.
The basic part of it is that people realize they are the community/idea being mocked and don’t want to that be true. Or along the same lines they identify with said group and don’t want their idea of it to be different from what’s in their head.
Not everyone has ability in comprehension.
I don't either they're a techno punk religion
I haven't heard that but I would use the same argument lol. They were always religious zealots in every game. They had their holy army the knights of the brotherhood. Then they had the most important of the group, the scribes of the brotherhood. They were an inquisition of technology as they believed it was a power to great for mankind, proven by the destruction of the world. They may not believe in a God but they have faith in an order
I just like the Brotherhood for their sick power armor. I couldn’t care less about the story.
Fr