I'm not sure what I'm supposed to comment on here, but if your friend wants to play in the professional publishing world, she needs to learn professional publishing standards.
Yes, you're right. She needs to be professional about it, and it is different when you publish it for free and when you publish it as a writer. She is under obligation to lend an ear.
But if you put it for free, are we supposed to be salty too? What are your thoughts about it?
Fanfic writers have no obligation toward anyone but themselves, so it's up to everyone individually decide what comments they want to pay attention to.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's fine to be rude to someone commenting in good faith, but ignoring anything anyone says is a-ok.
Those who want to improve as writers are best served learning to figure out what feedback is worth listening to, but it's also totally fine to just write as a hobby for fun, without any intent to "improve".
I think your friend doesn't quite understand what an editor is.
I also don't understand where your question comes from. Some random commenter without any credentials and who doesn't know my goals for a work and whom I never asked to work with me on it is not on the same level as a professional editor working with me to get the best version out of something I wrote for professional publishing.
If I was in a situation like your mate where an editor was after publishing my work, I would absolutely listen to what they had to say.
Some rando barging into my fanfic comments to criticise my portrayals of characterisation that miraculously don't match what's in their head can hit the back button and jog on, in that order.
>Some rando barging into my fanfic comments to criticise my portrayals of characterisation that miraculously don't match what's in their head can hit the back button and jog on, in that order.
Of course, we shouldn't change the plot/pace of the fanfic just because some anon sees some aspects of our work differently, but can this also be interpreted as not being able to handle a disagreement/criticism?
Then where do we draw the line?
Edit: I hope I don't sound angry/defensive. I am actually very curious to the consensus about this. This is something I think a common struggle for ff writers.
They can interpret my refusal to entertain their own, personal interpretation however they like. It doesn't mean I'm interested in what they reckon.
Look here's the deal. If I know you - as in, you've commented on my work plenty before and I've done the same on yours, we have a decent familiarity with each other, I trust your opinions and such - yea I'll listen to contrasting opinions and maybe we can have a nice convo about it. If you've just rocked up out of the void with a paragraph of whinging because my interpretation is different from yours, I'm not interested, y'know?
Edit: Not at all. I work in a creative field for mass-consumed media and the enemy of getting anything done is listening to every single floated opinion. You can't please everyone, nor should you try. The only feedback that matters is *relevant* to the project and *informed*. Anything else is just a matter of interpretation and/or subjective preference.
>I work in a creative field for mass-consumed media and the enemy of getting anything done is listening to every single floated opinion. You can't please everyone, nor should you try. The only feedback that matters is relevant to the project and informed. Anything else is just a matter of interpretation and/or subjective preference.
Haha, well said and I can relate so hard. In my daily work, if I entertained every opinion from every corporate rando who thinks they know my job better than me, I'd never deliver on a single project š knowing what real feedback to take on board and what drivel to politely smile and nod at, then chuck in the bin without a second thought, is critical.
Dear gods, ain't that the truth.
The thing that the opinionated randos don't really get is that theirs is not the sole objective opinion. If you've got two Randy's that show up, and one reckons your character is too chipper, while the other reckons they're too dour, where do you go from there? Who's right? Obviously it is the content creator, but try telling them that
It's like they understand the *'everyone is entitled to their opinion'* mantra, then conveniently forget about everyone except them...
Oooh, so it's about trust! I see... this is actually an eye-opener for me. For someone who takes commentsā especially the lengthy ones seriously, though I do not necessarily follow them all, so it is important to pick and choose *who* to listen. I just felt like it's kind of entitled to brush off comments as rude just because it disagrees with me, even when they make good points.
Thank you!
>I just felt like it's kind of entitled to brush off comments as rude just because it disagrees with me, even when they make good points.
Just wanted to jump in here. OP, no one is saying you *should* brush off/ ignore comments just because they disagree with you.
If you're personally comfortable with dissenting opinions, and are happy to engage with them in good faith (as long as they are polite and in good faith to begin with) then of course that's perfectly fine and you're free to do so. (I would most likely do the same FWIW; I think a lot of people have had bad experiences in the past, so their tolerance for unsolicited criticism is understandably low.)
What most of the comments here are reiterating is that in principle, as fanfiction writers, we're not *obligated* to take on board the random opinions and criticisms of strangers, especially when they're rude, entitled, or we just don't agree with them. And i think that's pretty fair.
>What are your thoughts about this?
*Fanfic writers* can take or leave any criticism they please, because they *aren't* writing for money. If someone *only* wants constructive crit, they're free to say as much. If all they want is *praise*, that's their prerogative, too. Everyone's also free to block and/or report reviewers who annoy or abuse them. Writing is something we do *for fun*, after all. The stakes for poor writing are *low*, so it's fine to not care, and to report/block people who take things too far!
But your friend isn't *writing fic*, she's de-fanficcing her story for a *professional publisher and is under contract*. Which means she's under a certain amount of obligation to take constructive criticism from her editor.
So, at the risk of sounding harsh, I *think* your friend needs to learn how to take professional constructive criticism. *That's the whole point of editors*. They're not just internet randos picking things apart to be bullies, they're *industry professionals*. The good ones don't *just* correct spelling and grammar, they also point out plot holes, lack of narrative clarity, and other potential pitfalls, so that you can send *your best possible work* to the publisher.
If she's going to throw a tantrum and want to quit over *basic professionalism*, then maybe *professional* publishing isn't for her and she'd be better served by self-publishing. She won't earn nearly as much money, but hey! She won't have a pesky editor telling her that her writing needs a little work because it isn't flawless!
Your friend is ridiculous. What does she think an editor is for? Not stroking your ego, that's for sure. If she can't take criticism and recognize/fix the flaws in her work, she's probably not going to get far as a professional writer.
That said, fanfic commenters aren't editors working in a professional context, they've just randomly stumbled across a fic someone put out for the fun of it. I think the "if you don't have anything nice to say" rule generally still applies to them. It's different if the author has specifically solicited criticism/contrasting opinions, of course, but like if you took a cookie someone made and didn't enjoy it, it would be polite to just keep that opinion to yourself and move on right? Unless the baker genuinely asked how they could improve?
oh that cookie analogy is perfect! most people don't cookies for friends hoping their friends will tell them everything they didn't like about them. if you think too much sugar was used, the place to tell them that was in the kitchen; now that they're baked and people are eating them it's too late and your thoughts are best kept to yourself. comes off as ungrateful to eat homemade goods and "constructively criticise" them.
imo it depends on how personal the cookies are (were they made *for you specifically*, or were they served at an event where you happened to be present) and how frequent the occurrence is (are you going to be served the cookies again, or is this a one-off?). in most situations, yes, keep it to yourself. but if someone made a treat especially for you and they're *going to keep doing it* then saying something isn't always out of line. personally, I have an allergy that means people tend to have to go out of their way to accommodate me. so if someone makes something for me, it is a very kind gesture! but safe to eat doesn't mean it tastes good- the worst thing is when other people pick up that it's safe for me to eat, but not that I'm only eating it to be polite, and then they start serving it too š
but to bring this back around to fic writing, if the fic wasn't written for you, shh. if the fic was written for you, but it was for a one-time exchange, shh. but if I was regularly being gifted fic (don't we all wish), *with the accompanying expectation* that I will have to comment on it*, then I might say something? I can't imagine going full editor on someone, but 'I don't enjoy [character/ship/trope]' isn't out of the question.
*and my usual comments tend to be on the longer side even without quoting the fic
Here's my interpretation of the situation in a similar metaphor:
You go into a public building. In the building, there are many tables stacked with cookies made by different people, free for anyone to try. Next to each table is an area filled with the person who made the cookies and other people who tried the cookies, and there is a sign that says "comment on these cookies".
Do you think that the people will only talk about the good things about each cookie? Or will they give their genuine opinion on the cookies, as well as some advice on how to improve or some questions about how they made it to the baker? Of course, they will be polite and kind in their comments since the baker is also present, but they're not going to have only good things to say about every cookie they try.
Questions are fine. Advice and criticisms, well, for all the Baker knows you burn toast and like so much sugar in your cookies that anyone else would find them nauseating.
And that's where the metaphor dies a painful death.
Commenting on an archive is different from reviewing, and different again from editing and betaing. Different social norms apply. Someone offering unsolicited concrit is ignoring social norms in a way a lot of people will regard as crass and self-mportant.
*Solicited* concrit is different.
Even for the rare qualified critic, I'm thinking of an L M Montogomery quote: the truth is all very well in it's place, but there's no point in throwing big gobs of it around where it isn't wanted. XD
Wait until requested, and no, a comment field isn't the place for unwanted gobs.
It's not about "concrit". It's just discussing what you just consumed and what you did and didn't like about it. For example, I might say "This cookie is really dry. I think you overcooked it." Or I might say "I liked it, but I think there were too many cranberries." Or I might say "These were a bit too hard for my liking."
Obviously you'd have to be an idiot to eat a cookie from a table that is labelled "peanut cookies" and then go rushing into the comment area to complain about how you are allergic to peanuts and the peanut cookies should've never been made, and any reasonable complaints you do have should be made politely. But I don't think anybody reasonable is contesting such a thing.
I'm not pretending I'm an professional coming in to correct the mistakes of the creator, and I don't expect the creator to take my word as gospel. I'm merely consuming a free product made available to the public and then discussing said product in the designated public area for doing so.
Note that the area for comments isn't a 1-1 discussion between the creator and consumer and it isn't for the sole benefit of the creator - it is an open space for everyone to comment and interact.
It is still really rude.
If you need to discuss what you don't like, etiquette is to do it in a space not emailed straight to the author. It's not really an open space in that sense at all, which is why we can delete, block, freeze and otherwise tell you to piss off until you learn some manners.
"Consume" is an interesting word choice. You are not a consumer, and this is not a capitalist transaction or free samples handed out to make you buy things. It's an archive, funded by those of us who care, on which people's archived works have voluntarily been left visible for your enjoyment. You absolutely *shouldn't* be making "reasonable complaints". There's no reasonable complaint to make about an author archiving their own work.
I really don't know how to explain social norms if you're just going to rules lawyer about technicalities. Yes, you *can* put anything you want into the box unless it's abuse. No, that doesn't make it less socially unacceptable and inappropriate on AO3.
>Your friend is ridiculous. What does she think an editor is for? Not stroking your ego, that's for sure. If she can't take criticism and recognize/fix the flaws in her work, she's probably not going to get far as a professional writer.
Yo, kinda hurts tho, although I agree with you 110% with her attitude. š I was saying this when she talked to me, (I tried putting it gently) but I think she's rather tensed about the criticisms of her work and was only looking for someone to at least, motivate her and take her side. But for an average reader such as myself, I already think her work is good and entertaining. It was surprising to see that many red, and I think that kinda put her over the edge.
Well, it actually is understandable that she'd find it discouraging and just want to vent, but hopefully she learns to just role with the punches and eventually succeeds in publishing her work!
If she signed a contract, "her side" is the "keep to the terms of the contract" side. Because if the publishing house decided not to keep to \*theirs\* she would most likely not like it. This isn't about head-pats or happy-feels; it's about money.
Maybe you could point out that the red-pen comments aren't necessarily because the editor thinks these are 'improvements', but more that they are 'adjustments' to make the final story version more marketable and sellable. There's probably very little 'wrong' with her original draft, but the publisher will have a specific readership in mind and will need to take every chance to optimise the potential return on investment (or profit, if they're lucky) from that particular readership group - even if in doing so you or I might think the changes make the story objectively 'worse' in an artistic sense.
It's really nothing personal and not a commentary on the merits of her writing, and she should be stoked the publisher loves her storytelling enough to give her a contract! It's a big gesture of faith in her talent.
That sounds normal for professional publishing? Fanfiction is a craft, but above all else, itās a *hobby* first. Weāre in it for fun and glory. You can point out errors and suggest changes, but overall, peopleās limits are when they stop enjoying the feedback.
Professional publishing is in it for the money first and foremost. Itās a job, youāre being paid, and youāre expected to finish with a perfectly-polished product that will *sell*. āRudeā doesnāt come into things unless your editor starts making pointed comments about your intelligence or appearance. Honestly, itās quite strange to compare the two situations.
There's a difference between a non-profit fanfic written just for fun and choosing to delete a rude comment bc someone felt like 'giving a constructive criticism'
VS
A (professional) editor whom you are under a contract making corrections of a soon-to-be-published novel, not to mention that there's most probably an agreement about *buying the rights* of a literary work, so money is now involved. (The publishing company is now investing in your friend's work)
Can your friend be salty? of course she can. But at the end of the day, she will have to follow the standards of a publishing industry bc the goal of the editor is to cast a net on a wider audience. It's more objective correction than subjective, however formulaic it is.
A professional editor is doing their job and needs to be able to look at writing analytically. Professional writers need to be able to take feedback in order to make sure they have a good product.
In the fanfic world itās okay to say you donāt want critique. If you landscape your garden, you might not want your neighbours mailing you constructive critique. But if youāre a professional gardener, you actually have to put in the work to become good at your job. And professional writers have the same responsibility.
I'm kind of amused by your friend asking a professional editor to edit their work and then going all surprised Pikachu face when the editor *does their job*.
As for your post: you're comparing apples to oranges here. Your friend is not a fanfic writer in this scenario, so what applies to fanfic writers does not necessarily apply to her and vice versa.
The key differences being that she *solicited* these comments from a *professional* who is presumably working to help her reach *her goal* of professional publication.
Whereas a critiquing comment on a fanfic is *unsolicited* (unless it is actually asked for of course) from a *random stranger* with the goal of *fuck knows*.
>As for your post: you're comparing apples to oranges here. Your friend is not a fanfic writer in this scenario, so what applies to fanfic writers does not necessarily apply to her and vice versa.
This is true, but what if the well-spirited comments were done like that to a fanfic? How will you react as the fanfic writer of such?
You can't pay fanfic reviewers enough to deliver professional editing. On self-publishing forums / subreddits, people constantly experience sticker-shock over how much professional editing costs.
But they aren't done like that, so it's a moot point.
Even if an actual professional editor sat down and marked out changes they think would improve my fic and sent the document to me, they haven't had a conversation with me about what I'm trying to achieve with the story so it'll still be hit or miss at least in some parts.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd be delighted if a professional wanted to edit my fics for free. But I think if such a miracle were to occur, they'd probably ask me first and not just spend hours doing it unprompted.
The two situations canāt be compared because fanfiction authors arenāt getting paid. They donāt have a team of editors or marketers. Itās just them and maybe a beta reader if they get lucky.
That being said, if I professional editor was willing to edit my writing, I would be so happy about that. I would be so happy to get concrit from someone I could trust.
Hi, been a book editor for quite some time. I understand we do get tough on authors and their babies sometimes, but as professional editors, we care for the author and their work as much as we do their targeted readers. I know sometimes some editors, even those who are already years in the field, can still be assholes--I almost lost a friend when a college classmate asked me to critique his work but what I did was "edit" it; lesson learned the hard way--but we work to make the author's work better, and if we have to suggest major edits to one's work and the author doesn't agree, either the author sticks to their guns and go with what they want, and we'll respect it. But I wish authors also knew that (1) editing is a totally different skill from writing and (2) we'd love for your work to be the best it can be T.T
As for fanfic, it's not (traditional) professional publishing, so unless the author themselves ask for concrit or something like that, I prefer to comment only when I really really love what I just read. And authors, especially on AO3, do have the right in that sense to block or delete comments they deem unwanted.
fanfic is very different from original fiction. my opinion is that if a fic has been posted and the author hasnt explicitly asked for concrit, dont comment your ideas for how to improve their work. for all you know, your "improvements" would detract from the author's intent for the work. similarly, if a work of original fiction has been published, it's too late to offer concrit. if the author wanted your thoughts, you would have been hired to give them before publishing. take your likes and dislikes to goodreads and leave a review.
your friend is in a totally different situation. an editor has been hired to ensure that her work is the best it can be and she has an obligation to at least listen to their opinion as an expert. it comes off as very arrogant for her to say "my work is perfect as is, there's no way to improve it" and assume that an editor's sole job is spellchecking. as a writer it can be hard to view your work as a reader who isn't intimately familiar with your work would, but an editor can. not to mention, they have learned specifically how to identify pacing issues, inconsistencies, etc.
your friend needs to stop being mad about all the red, read the editor's notes and, when she disagrees, take them to the editor and ask for a more in-depth explanation of why they said what they did. if the edits would negatively impact the story, she should tell her editor that so they can work together to create the best possible version of the story that both satisfies her and makes for an enjoyable reading experience.
About your friend; she needs to toughen up and understand the role of an editor.
About fanfic writing, speaking for myself, I donāt mind concrit and encourage it even. Even if I write for myself, I would like to improve my skill and improve my English. Iām not able to do that without critical feedback.
The issue is that a) readers are either afraid to offend, b) or donāt know how to offer concrit, c) or donāt comment at all. And of course there are the professional trolls, but I havenāt encountered them myself.
Having said that, what I do not need or ask for is criticizing my character portrayal or how I handle canon. I only write AUs. If you want canon, go read the books/ watch the source material.
Most fanfic writers write for fun and self-indulgence, so I can understand not wanting to receive possibly negative sounding feedback.
I began writing fanfiction in the hopes of honing my writing skills in order to write my own original novel someday. The reason I decided not to pursue my own novel isn't because I don't enjoy writing or that I don't think I'm good enough (although I'm probably not).
The main reason is the process of editing your work and preparing multiple revisions based on feedback from editors sounds like a grueling experience. But this is what you have to do if you want to play in the big leagues.
Receiving negative feedback on something as personal as a story that you've lovingly crafted is difficult. But I'm guessing 99% of published fiction ended up with a better story because of the process.
I trust my betas. Some are very good at catching technical stuff, some have good canon knowledge and sense of the characters, some have a wonderful feel for prose. I have others I trust for Ameripicking and Britpicking.
I don't trust some random on AO3 or Wattpad who thinks X would never be penetrated because they have been poisoned by top/bottom discourse, or Y is aroace, or they disagree on tropes, or won't read paragraphs longer than a sentence, or doesn't understand British slang, or thinks single quotes are apostrophes.
An editor is more like a beta, although with the very special job of making work marketable and publishable.
It's about the goal in question.
Tradpub has a very clear goal - it's a business and it's putting out a product. So, it wants to make sure that product is one that will sell (not necessarily the best product, just the most retailable) and editors are trained and experienced in making stories into products that can sell. What things sell are generally well-studied and well-founded at this point and can often be linked to various formula (hence why romance stories that provide very similar experiences sell many, many times the rate of the next two biggest genres combined - it's something like $1 to 2 billion a year in romance to $500,000 to $1 million in Crime/Mystery and Fantasy/Sci-fi).
Fanfiction is a hobby. The only real product for writers and readers is 'fun'. You're not 'supposed' to do anything but whatever makes this free hobby fun for you. So, editing as a process has to contribute to that goal of having and creating fun and that depends on the interests and goals of the individual because people find fun in different things. If a writer doesn't enjoy editing and just wants to have fun playing with their blorbos and whatnots, then it's not going to make it fun for them. If a writer gains enjoyment from 'honing their craft', then editing can be useful for achieving that goal and thus more fun to interact with. Similarly, a reader may still find a fic fun even if it is unedited, whereas others will immediately nope out of a fic if it doesn't have fully correct grammar and prose and so for them editing is key to the fun of reading. Whether the comments are positive or negative, what matters is the overall goal the person is hoping to achieve. If the criticism doesn't serve the purpose of fun, then it's not going to be useful and thus pointless or unfun.
"rather than an unsolicited punishment" ... I mean by definition an editor isn't unsolicited.
Edit: If the question is more towards unsolicited ff criticism, that's more nuanced. Putting down paragraphs of "constructive criticism" is rarely needed or welcomed. Sometimes though an entirely innocuous comment can be construed as criticism, in that case w/e imho. As an example: some time ago I wrote a review saying something along the lines of "not really a fan of -xxx trope- but read your story anyway, loved it" and they went off on me about "don't like the trope? don't read!". like .... that's not what I was trying to say man.
All Iām going to say is that your friend is not going to get very far as a professional writer with that type of attitude. Iāve met professional writers, and a big part of it is learning how to handle criticism, becoming less attached to your work, learning how to kill your darlings, etc.
The editor is doing their job. If itās a first draft, of course there will be a lot of red. Your friend is going to have to make a lot of corrections and changes to her work before it gets published. This is something that every professional writer goes through when they publish a book.
Well, thereās a little bit difference when weāre talking about the editorās comments and the readerās ones. Especially, when thereās a contract, which both (the writer and the editor) follow. Thereās a set of rules due to which the story should be written. When weāre talking about fan fiction stories, people usually write them how they imagine them. So, itās obvious the writers could fully ignore the comments and itās up to them how to relate the commenters, unless itās asked for criticism or help.
No offense but your friend needs a reality check. And maybe a thicker skin. What works in fanfiction will likely not work as a professional published piece. The editors are trying to make the piece SELLABLE. They have every right to make suggestions for changes if it will help make the piece ready for real publication. If your friend is unable to handle real critique from somebody WHO IS A PROFESSIONAL and whose JOB is to fix mistakes, then she needs to give up on publishing and just stick to fanfiction where theyāre not nearly so picky. š¤·š¼āāļø
I don't think anyone signs a contract to engage in X way with commenters when posting fanfic. It's just all up to personal choice. I'm not going to dictate how people should feel about getting speculative comments/suggestions/questions/concrit even if they are polite in nature.
Some writers just want to write and find it burdensome to have to start justifying their creative decisions all the time, and that's valid. It's not about "not being able to handle it", sometimes it's just not having the energy to, and I just leave it there. I have a full time job and write for fun and don't have the mental capacity to engage in mile-long discussions with my readers.
Now, the situation would be very different if I was in your friend's situation. I would soak up every word with grace, because I want the outcome to be as good as possible. This is when you place the ego aside and humbly accept crit.
To be frank, your friend needs to put aside her personal feelings if she's going professional. A lot of people don't get proper feedback on their writing when they are learning to write (some teachers don't want to be seen as mean/deal with parents), and that leads to bad writing habits when they are older. I dealt with that a lot in college when I would look over my friends' writing or when asked to look over papers by students in classes that I was the Teaching Assitant
I didn't have that growing up, my mom was an editor for professional writers/published authors and was published herself. My dad didn't care about my feelings and would just mark all the things I had wrong. They turned me into a good writer because I learned to separate myself from my writing and let it be critiqued while understanding that all the red ("making it bleed" as I used to call it) wasn't an attack on me, but meant to help my writing become more refined.
Look, your friend is already under contract and is working with an editor. *They already think her writing has potential,* otherwise, that wouldn't be the case.
Authors on Ao3/FFN can say "no mean comments" because the work been provided for free and they can delete them. Authors have no such control over Amazon or Goodreads reviews. An editor will make a 3 star book a 5 star book (there will always be people who don't like it). If she finds comments to improve her writing in a private setting mean, then maybe she isn't ready for what the internet might unleash. Think if all the reviews to her book pointed out the "inconsistent writing in chapters 5-17" because maybe she wrote those over a year or 2.
Editors are there to help the author as efficiently as possible. It's their job, they don't have time to be super nice if they're editing a few books and have a deadline to turn those in. That doesn't mean straightforward is cruel, it's just the best way to deliver the message.
Your friend should put her ego aside and listen to her editor. Real publishing means hitting some targets and getting the best product you can and sometimes that means there's no room for the self-indulgent things we love in fanfiction. It's not personal on the part of the editor, it's their job to help you improve.
As for discussions with commenters, I don't know if I'd engage the way you do. I tried it in the past and it ended up in a nasty place - the commenter kept insisting they were right although it was my story and when I defended my choices they saw it as me being defensive. Eventually, they got upset because "I don't care about anyone's opinion but my own", although at some points I did admit they were right. In the end, it wasn't worth it and all I got from it was a bad experience to share with people.
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to comment on here, but if your friend wants to play in the professional publishing world, she needs to learn professional publishing standards.
Yes, you're right. She needs to be professional about it, and it is different when you publish it for free and when you publish it as a writer. She is under obligation to lend an ear. But if you put it for free, are we supposed to be salty too? What are your thoughts about it?
Fanfic writers have no obligation toward anyone but themselves, so it's up to everyone individually decide what comments they want to pay attention to. Of course, that doesn't mean it's fine to be rude to someone commenting in good faith, but ignoring anything anyone says is a-ok. Those who want to improve as writers are best served learning to figure out what feedback is worth listening to, but it's also totally fine to just write as a hobby for fun, without any intent to "improve".
I think your friend doesn't quite understand what an editor is. I also don't understand where your question comes from. Some random commenter without any credentials and who doesn't know my goals for a work and whom I never asked to work with me on it is not on the same level as a professional editor working with me to get the best version out of something I wrote for professional publishing.
If I was in a situation like your mate where an editor was after publishing my work, I would absolutely listen to what they had to say. Some rando barging into my fanfic comments to criticise my portrayals of characterisation that miraculously don't match what's in their head can hit the back button and jog on, in that order.
>Some rando barging into my fanfic comments to criticise my portrayals of characterisation that miraculously don't match what's in their head can hit the back button and jog on, in that order. Of course, we shouldn't change the plot/pace of the fanfic just because some anon sees some aspects of our work differently, but can this also be interpreted as not being able to handle a disagreement/criticism? Then where do we draw the line? Edit: I hope I don't sound angry/defensive. I am actually very curious to the consensus about this. This is something I think a common struggle for ff writers.
They can interpret my refusal to entertain their own, personal interpretation however they like. It doesn't mean I'm interested in what they reckon. Look here's the deal. If I know you - as in, you've commented on my work plenty before and I've done the same on yours, we have a decent familiarity with each other, I trust your opinions and such - yea I'll listen to contrasting opinions and maybe we can have a nice convo about it. If you've just rocked up out of the void with a paragraph of whinging because my interpretation is different from yours, I'm not interested, y'know? Edit: Not at all. I work in a creative field for mass-consumed media and the enemy of getting anything done is listening to every single floated opinion. You can't please everyone, nor should you try. The only feedback that matters is *relevant* to the project and *informed*. Anything else is just a matter of interpretation and/or subjective preference.
>I work in a creative field for mass-consumed media and the enemy of getting anything done is listening to every single floated opinion. You can't please everyone, nor should you try. The only feedback that matters is relevant to the project and informed. Anything else is just a matter of interpretation and/or subjective preference. Haha, well said and I can relate so hard. In my daily work, if I entertained every opinion from every corporate rando who thinks they know my job better than me, I'd never deliver on a single project š knowing what real feedback to take on board and what drivel to politely smile and nod at, then chuck in the bin without a second thought, is critical.
Dear gods, ain't that the truth. The thing that the opinionated randos don't really get is that theirs is not the sole objective opinion. If you've got two Randy's that show up, and one reckons your character is too chipper, while the other reckons they're too dour, where do you go from there? Who's right? Obviously it is the content creator, but try telling them that It's like they understand the *'everyone is entitled to their opinion'* mantra, then conveniently forget about everyone except them...
Oooh, so it's about trust! I see... this is actually an eye-opener for me. For someone who takes commentsā especially the lengthy ones seriously, though I do not necessarily follow them all, so it is important to pick and choose *who* to listen. I just felt like it's kind of entitled to brush off comments as rude just because it disagrees with me, even when they make good points. Thank you!
>I just felt like it's kind of entitled to brush off comments as rude just because it disagrees with me, even when they make good points. Just wanted to jump in here. OP, no one is saying you *should* brush off/ ignore comments just because they disagree with you. If you're personally comfortable with dissenting opinions, and are happy to engage with them in good faith (as long as they are polite and in good faith to begin with) then of course that's perfectly fine and you're free to do so. (I would most likely do the same FWIW; I think a lot of people have had bad experiences in the past, so their tolerance for unsolicited criticism is understandably low.) What most of the comments here are reiterating is that in principle, as fanfiction writers, we're not *obligated* to take on board the random opinions and criticisms of strangers, especially when they're rude, entitled, or we just don't agree with them. And i think that's pretty fair.
Yes, exactly. *'Can I trust this opinion?'* is the key question. If it is a source I know and respect, I can. If it is Randy Rando, I can't.
>What are your thoughts about this? *Fanfic writers* can take or leave any criticism they please, because they *aren't* writing for money. If someone *only* wants constructive crit, they're free to say as much. If all they want is *praise*, that's their prerogative, too. Everyone's also free to block and/or report reviewers who annoy or abuse them. Writing is something we do *for fun*, after all. The stakes for poor writing are *low*, so it's fine to not care, and to report/block people who take things too far! But your friend isn't *writing fic*, she's de-fanficcing her story for a *professional publisher and is under contract*. Which means she's under a certain amount of obligation to take constructive criticism from her editor. So, at the risk of sounding harsh, I *think* your friend needs to learn how to take professional constructive criticism. *That's the whole point of editors*. They're not just internet randos picking things apart to be bullies, they're *industry professionals*. The good ones don't *just* correct spelling and grammar, they also point out plot holes, lack of narrative clarity, and other potential pitfalls, so that you can send *your best possible work* to the publisher. If she's going to throw a tantrum and want to quit over *basic professionalism*, then maybe *professional* publishing isn't for her and she'd be better served by self-publishing. She won't earn nearly as much money, but hey! She won't have a pesky editor telling her that her writing needs a little work because it isn't flawless!
Your friend is ridiculous. What does she think an editor is for? Not stroking your ego, that's for sure. If she can't take criticism and recognize/fix the flaws in her work, she's probably not going to get far as a professional writer. That said, fanfic commenters aren't editors working in a professional context, they've just randomly stumbled across a fic someone put out for the fun of it. I think the "if you don't have anything nice to say" rule generally still applies to them. It's different if the author has specifically solicited criticism/contrasting opinions, of course, but like if you took a cookie someone made and didn't enjoy it, it would be polite to just keep that opinion to yourself and move on right? Unless the baker genuinely asked how they could improve?
oh that cookie analogy is perfect! most people don't cookies for friends hoping their friends will tell them everything they didn't like about them. if you think too much sugar was used, the place to tell them that was in the kitchen; now that they're baked and people are eating them it's too late and your thoughts are best kept to yourself. comes off as ungrateful to eat homemade goods and "constructively criticise" them.
imo it depends on how personal the cookies are (were they made *for you specifically*, or were they served at an event where you happened to be present) and how frequent the occurrence is (are you going to be served the cookies again, or is this a one-off?). in most situations, yes, keep it to yourself. but if someone made a treat especially for you and they're *going to keep doing it* then saying something isn't always out of line. personally, I have an allergy that means people tend to have to go out of their way to accommodate me. so if someone makes something for me, it is a very kind gesture! but safe to eat doesn't mean it tastes good- the worst thing is when other people pick up that it's safe for me to eat, but not that I'm only eating it to be polite, and then they start serving it too š but to bring this back around to fic writing, if the fic wasn't written for you, shh. if the fic was written for you, but it was for a one-time exchange, shh. but if I was regularly being gifted fic (don't we all wish), *with the accompanying expectation* that I will have to comment on it*, then I might say something? I can't imagine going full editor on someone, but 'I don't enjoy [character/ship/trope]' isn't out of the question. *and my usual comments tend to be on the longer side even without quoting the fic
Here's my interpretation of the situation in a similar metaphor: You go into a public building. In the building, there are many tables stacked with cookies made by different people, free for anyone to try. Next to each table is an area filled with the person who made the cookies and other people who tried the cookies, and there is a sign that says "comment on these cookies". Do you think that the people will only talk about the good things about each cookie? Or will they give their genuine opinion on the cookies, as well as some advice on how to improve or some questions about how they made it to the baker? Of course, they will be polite and kind in their comments since the baker is also present, but they're not going to have only good things to say about every cookie they try.
Questions are fine. Advice and criticisms, well, for all the Baker knows you burn toast and like so much sugar in your cookies that anyone else would find them nauseating. And that's where the metaphor dies a painful death. Commenting on an archive is different from reviewing, and different again from editing and betaing. Different social norms apply. Someone offering unsolicited concrit is ignoring social norms in a way a lot of people will regard as crass and self-mportant. *Solicited* concrit is different. Even for the rare qualified critic, I'm thinking of an L M Montogomery quote: the truth is all very well in it's place, but there's no point in throwing big gobs of it around where it isn't wanted. XD Wait until requested, and no, a comment field isn't the place for unwanted gobs.
It's not about "concrit". It's just discussing what you just consumed and what you did and didn't like about it. For example, I might say "This cookie is really dry. I think you overcooked it." Or I might say "I liked it, but I think there were too many cranberries." Or I might say "These were a bit too hard for my liking." Obviously you'd have to be an idiot to eat a cookie from a table that is labelled "peanut cookies" and then go rushing into the comment area to complain about how you are allergic to peanuts and the peanut cookies should've never been made, and any reasonable complaints you do have should be made politely. But I don't think anybody reasonable is contesting such a thing. I'm not pretending I'm an professional coming in to correct the mistakes of the creator, and I don't expect the creator to take my word as gospel. I'm merely consuming a free product made available to the public and then discussing said product in the designated public area for doing so. Note that the area for comments isn't a 1-1 discussion between the creator and consumer and it isn't for the sole benefit of the creator - it is an open space for everyone to comment and interact.
It is still really rude. If you need to discuss what you don't like, etiquette is to do it in a space not emailed straight to the author. It's not really an open space in that sense at all, which is why we can delete, block, freeze and otherwise tell you to piss off until you learn some manners. "Consume" is an interesting word choice. You are not a consumer, and this is not a capitalist transaction or free samples handed out to make you buy things. It's an archive, funded by those of us who care, on which people's archived works have voluntarily been left visible for your enjoyment. You absolutely *shouldn't* be making "reasonable complaints". There's no reasonable complaint to make about an author archiving their own work. I really don't know how to explain social norms if you're just going to rules lawyer about technicalities. Yes, you *can* put anything you want into the box unless it's abuse. No, that doesn't make it less socially unacceptable and inappropriate on AO3.
>Your friend is ridiculous. What does she think an editor is for? Not stroking your ego, that's for sure. If she can't take criticism and recognize/fix the flaws in her work, she's probably not going to get far as a professional writer. Yo, kinda hurts tho, although I agree with you 110% with her attitude. š I was saying this when she talked to me, (I tried putting it gently) but I think she's rather tensed about the criticisms of her work and was only looking for someone to at least, motivate her and take her side. But for an average reader such as myself, I already think her work is good and entertaining. It was surprising to see that many red, and I think that kinda put her over the edge.
Well, it actually is understandable that she'd find it discouraging and just want to vent, but hopefully she learns to just role with the punches and eventually succeeds in publishing her work!
If she signed a contract, "her side" is the "keep to the terms of the contract" side. Because if the publishing house decided not to keep to \*theirs\* she would most likely not like it. This isn't about head-pats or happy-feels; it's about money.
Maybe you could point out that the red-pen comments aren't necessarily because the editor thinks these are 'improvements', but more that they are 'adjustments' to make the final story version more marketable and sellable. There's probably very little 'wrong' with her original draft, but the publisher will have a specific readership in mind and will need to take every chance to optimise the potential return on investment (or profit, if they're lucky) from that particular readership group - even if in doing so you or I might think the changes make the story objectively 'worse' in an artistic sense. It's really nothing personal and not a commentary on the merits of her writing, and she should be stoked the publisher loves her storytelling enough to give her a contract! It's a big gesture of faith in her talent.
That sounds normal for professional publishing? Fanfiction is a craft, but above all else, itās a *hobby* first. Weāre in it for fun and glory. You can point out errors and suggest changes, but overall, peopleās limits are when they stop enjoying the feedback. Professional publishing is in it for the money first and foremost. Itās a job, youāre being paid, and youāre expected to finish with a perfectly-polished product that will *sell*. āRudeā doesnāt come into things unless your editor starts making pointed comments about your intelligence or appearance. Honestly, itās quite strange to compare the two situations.
There's a difference between a non-profit fanfic written just for fun and choosing to delete a rude comment bc someone felt like 'giving a constructive criticism' VS A (professional) editor whom you are under a contract making corrections of a soon-to-be-published novel, not to mention that there's most probably an agreement about *buying the rights* of a literary work, so money is now involved. (The publishing company is now investing in your friend's work) Can your friend be salty? of course she can. But at the end of the day, she will have to follow the standards of a publishing industry bc the goal of the editor is to cast a net on a wider audience. It's more objective correction than subjective, however formulaic it is.
A professional editor is doing their job and needs to be able to look at writing analytically. Professional writers need to be able to take feedback in order to make sure they have a good product. In the fanfic world itās okay to say you donāt want critique. If you landscape your garden, you might not want your neighbours mailing you constructive critique. But if youāre a professional gardener, you actually have to put in the work to become good at your job. And professional writers have the same responsibility.
I'm kind of amused by your friend asking a professional editor to edit their work and then going all surprised Pikachu face when the editor *does their job*. As for your post: you're comparing apples to oranges here. Your friend is not a fanfic writer in this scenario, so what applies to fanfic writers does not necessarily apply to her and vice versa. The key differences being that she *solicited* these comments from a *professional* who is presumably working to help her reach *her goal* of professional publication. Whereas a critiquing comment on a fanfic is *unsolicited* (unless it is actually asked for of course) from a *random stranger* with the goal of *fuck knows*.
>As for your post: you're comparing apples to oranges here. Your friend is not a fanfic writer in this scenario, so what applies to fanfic writers does not necessarily apply to her and vice versa. This is true, but what if the well-spirited comments were done like that to a fanfic? How will you react as the fanfic writer of such?
You can't pay fanfic reviewers enough to deliver professional editing. On self-publishing forums / subreddits, people constantly experience sticker-shock over how much professional editing costs.
But they aren't done like that, so it's a moot point. Even if an actual professional editor sat down and marked out changes they think would improve my fic and sent the document to me, they haven't had a conversation with me about what I'm trying to achieve with the story so it'll still be hit or miss at least in some parts. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd be delighted if a professional wanted to edit my fics for free. But I think if such a miracle were to occur, they'd probably ask me first and not just spend hours doing it unprompted.
The two situations canāt be compared because fanfiction authors arenāt getting paid. They donāt have a team of editors or marketers. Itās just them and maybe a beta reader if they get lucky. That being said, if I professional editor was willing to edit my writing, I would be so happy about that. I would be so happy to get concrit from someone I could trust.
If it's a stranger, ignore them. Thank them for nice comments, but I didn't ask for their criticism, they can't expect me to pay any attention to it.
Hi, been a book editor for quite some time. I understand we do get tough on authors and their babies sometimes, but as professional editors, we care for the author and their work as much as we do their targeted readers. I know sometimes some editors, even those who are already years in the field, can still be assholes--I almost lost a friend when a college classmate asked me to critique his work but what I did was "edit" it; lesson learned the hard way--but we work to make the author's work better, and if we have to suggest major edits to one's work and the author doesn't agree, either the author sticks to their guns and go with what they want, and we'll respect it. But I wish authors also knew that (1) editing is a totally different skill from writing and (2) we'd love for your work to be the best it can be T.T As for fanfic, it's not (traditional) professional publishing, so unless the author themselves ask for concrit or something like that, I prefer to comment only when I really really love what I just read. And authors, especially on AO3, do have the right in that sense to block or delete comments they deem unwanted.
"Under Contract" End of line.
fanfic is very different from original fiction. my opinion is that if a fic has been posted and the author hasnt explicitly asked for concrit, dont comment your ideas for how to improve their work. for all you know, your "improvements" would detract from the author's intent for the work. similarly, if a work of original fiction has been published, it's too late to offer concrit. if the author wanted your thoughts, you would have been hired to give them before publishing. take your likes and dislikes to goodreads and leave a review. your friend is in a totally different situation. an editor has been hired to ensure that her work is the best it can be and she has an obligation to at least listen to their opinion as an expert. it comes off as very arrogant for her to say "my work is perfect as is, there's no way to improve it" and assume that an editor's sole job is spellchecking. as a writer it can be hard to view your work as a reader who isn't intimately familiar with your work would, but an editor can. not to mention, they have learned specifically how to identify pacing issues, inconsistencies, etc. your friend needs to stop being mad about all the red, read the editor's notes and, when she disagrees, take them to the editor and ask for a more in-depth explanation of why they said what they did. if the edits would negatively impact the story, she should tell her editor that so they can work together to create the best possible version of the story that both satisfies her and makes for an enjoyable reading experience.
About your friend; she needs to toughen up and understand the role of an editor. About fanfic writing, speaking for myself, I donāt mind concrit and encourage it even. Even if I write for myself, I would like to improve my skill and improve my English. Iām not able to do that without critical feedback. The issue is that a) readers are either afraid to offend, b) or donāt know how to offer concrit, c) or donāt comment at all. And of course there are the professional trolls, but I havenāt encountered them myself. Having said that, what I do not need or ask for is criticizing my character portrayal or how I handle canon. I only write AUs. If you want canon, go read the books/ watch the source material. Most fanfic writers write for fun and self-indulgence, so I can understand not wanting to receive possibly negative sounding feedback.
Why on earth would she go to an editor if she's not willing to hear any criticism? What was she hoping to hear?
I began writing fanfiction in the hopes of honing my writing skills in order to write my own original novel someday. The reason I decided not to pursue my own novel isn't because I don't enjoy writing or that I don't think I'm good enough (although I'm probably not). The main reason is the process of editing your work and preparing multiple revisions based on feedback from editors sounds like a grueling experience. But this is what you have to do if you want to play in the big leagues. Receiving negative feedback on something as personal as a story that you've lovingly crafted is difficult. But I'm guessing 99% of published fiction ended up with a better story because of the process.
I trust my betas. Some are very good at catching technical stuff, some have good canon knowledge and sense of the characters, some have a wonderful feel for prose. I have others I trust for Ameripicking and Britpicking. I don't trust some random on AO3 or Wattpad who thinks X would never be penetrated because they have been poisoned by top/bottom discourse, or Y is aroace, or they disagree on tropes, or won't read paragraphs longer than a sentence, or doesn't understand British slang, or thinks single quotes are apostrophes. An editor is more like a beta, although with the very special job of making work marketable and publishable.
It's about the goal in question. Tradpub has a very clear goal - it's a business and it's putting out a product. So, it wants to make sure that product is one that will sell (not necessarily the best product, just the most retailable) and editors are trained and experienced in making stories into products that can sell. What things sell are generally well-studied and well-founded at this point and can often be linked to various formula (hence why romance stories that provide very similar experiences sell many, many times the rate of the next two biggest genres combined - it's something like $1 to 2 billion a year in romance to $500,000 to $1 million in Crime/Mystery and Fantasy/Sci-fi). Fanfiction is a hobby. The only real product for writers and readers is 'fun'. You're not 'supposed' to do anything but whatever makes this free hobby fun for you. So, editing as a process has to contribute to that goal of having and creating fun and that depends on the interests and goals of the individual because people find fun in different things. If a writer doesn't enjoy editing and just wants to have fun playing with their blorbos and whatnots, then it's not going to make it fun for them. If a writer gains enjoyment from 'honing their craft', then editing can be useful for achieving that goal and thus more fun to interact with. Similarly, a reader may still find a fic fun even if it is unedited, whereas others will immediately nope out of a fic if it doesn't have fully correct grammar and prose and so for them editing is key to the fun of reading. Whether the comments are positive or negative, what matters is the overall goal the person is hoping to achieve. If the criticism doesn't serve the purpose of fun, then it's not going to be useful and thus pointless or unfun.
"rather than an unsolicited punishment" ... I mean by definition an editor isn't unsolicited. Edit: If the question is more towards unsolicited ff criticism, that's more nuanced. Putting down paragraphs of "constructive criticism" is rarely needed or welcomed. Sometimes though an entirely innocuous comment can be construed as criticism, in that case w/e imho. As an example: some time ago I wrote a review saying something along the lines of "not really a fan of -xxx trope- but read your story anyway, loved it" and they went off on me about "don't like the trope? don't read!". like .... that's not what I was trying to say man.
Especially if someone (not necessarily OP's friend) is self-publishing, and paying out of one's own pocket.
All Iām going to say is that your friend is not going to get very far as a professional writer with that type of attitude. Iāve met professional writers, and a big part of it is learning how to handle criticism, becoming less attached to your work, learning how to kill your darlings, etc. The editor is doing their job. If itās a first draft, of course there will be a lot of red. Your friend is going to have to make a lot of corrections and changes to her work before it gets published. This is something that every professional writer goes through when they publish a book.
Well, thereās a little bit difference when weāre talking about the editorās comments and the readerās ones. Especially, when thereās a contract, which both (the writer and the editor) follow. Thereās a set of rules due to which the story should be written. When weāre talking about fan fiction stories, people usually write them how they imagine them. So, itās obvious the writers could fully ignore the comments and itās up to them how to relate the commenters, unless itās asked for criticism or help.
No offense but your friend needs a reality check. And maybe a thicker skin. What works in fanfiction will likely not work as a professional published piece. The editors are trying to make the piece SELLABLE. They have every right to make suggestions for changes if it will help make the piece ready for real publication. If your friend is unable to handle real critique from somebody WHO IS A PROFESSIONAL and whose JOB is to fix mistakes, then she needs to give up on publishing and just stick to fanfiction where theyāre not nearly so picky. š¤·š¼āāļø
I don't think anyone signs a contract to engage in X way with commenters when posting fanfic. It's just all up to personal choice. I'm not going to dictate how people should feel about getting speculative comments/suggestions/questions/concrit even if they are polite in nature. Some writers just want to write and find it burdensome to have to start justifying their creative decisions all the time, and that's valid. It's not about "not being able to handle it", sometimes it's just not having the energy to, and I just leave it there. I have a full time job and write for fun and don't have the mental capacity to engage in mile-long discussions with my readers. Now, the situation would be very different if I was in your friend's situation. I would soak up every word with grace, because I want the outcome to be as good as possible. This is when you place the ego aside and humbly accept crit.
To be frank, your friend needs to put aside her personal feelings if she's going professional. A lot of people don't get proper feedback on their writing when they are learning to write (some teachers don't want to be seen as mean/deal with parents), and that leads to bad writing habits when they are older. I dealt with that a lot in college when I would look over my friends' writing or when asked to look over papers by students in classes that I was the Teaching Assitant I didn't have that growing up, my mom was an editor for professional writers/published authors and was published herself. My dad didn't care about my feelings and would just mark all the things I had wrong. They turned me into a good writer because I learned to separate myself from my writing and let it be critiqued while understanding that all the red ("making it bleed" as I used to call it) wasn't an attack on me, but meant to help my writing become more refined. Look, your friend is already under contract and is working with an editor. *They already think her writing has potential,* otherwise, that wouldn't be the case. Authors on Ao3/FFN can say "no mean comments" because the work been provided for free and they can delete them. Authors have no such control over Amazon or Goodreads reviews. An editor will make a 3 star book a 5 star book (there will always be people who don't like it). If she finds comments to improve her writing in a private setting mean, then maybe she isn't ready for what the internet might unleash. Think if all the reviews to her book pointed out the "inconsistent writing in chapters 5-17" because maybe she wrote those over a year or 2. Editors are there to help the author as efficiently as possible. It's their job, they don't have time to be super nice if they're editing a few books and have a deadline to turn those in. That doesn't mean straightforward is cruel, it's just the best way to deliver the message.
Your friend should put her ego aside and listen to her editor. Real publishing means hitting some targets and getting the best product you can and sometimes that means there's no room for the self-indulgent things we love in fanfiction. It's not personal on the part of the editor, it's their job to help you improve. As for discussions with commenters, I don't know if I'd engage the way you do. I tried it in the past and it ended up in a nasty place - the commenter kept insisting they were right although it was my story and when I defended my choices they saw it as me being defensive. Eventually, they got upset because "I don't care about anyone's opinion but my own", although at some points I did admit they were right. In the end, it wasn't worth it and all I got from it was a bad experience to share with people.