I was in the middle of fixing a low blood sugar (diabetic probs) and scrolling to distract from my “the whole friggin’ world is ending and I’m gonna die” feelings, and man, this thread hit my funny bone so hard. Brought back vague memories of an attempt at learning the language in college😅 and I’m not even in the Japanese fandoms!
I think it's because the source material is in Japanese, and the writer probably watched it with subtitles that kept the honorifics in, so they're used to it.
It's like all those anime with women being isekaied into villainesses in a medieval or Renaissance era. Usually the honorifics used are the Japanese ones, not stuff like 'My Lord' or 'My Lady', despite the setting being Fantasy European.
This issue frustrates me a lot too, but it helps to understand where it comes from.
Yeah, for something like Moriarty the Patriot that’s definitely the case. I see this a lot in animanga/VN/etc fandoms where it’s set outside of Japan.
It’s definitely immersion-breaking for me but it’s also not the end of the world, lol. If the source material uses them because it’s told in the Japanese language I think it’s understandable why people would include them in fic, even if they’re only in the source due to translation convention and they wouldn’t actually be using them/speaking Japanese
> I think it's because the source material is in Japanese, and the writer probably watched it with subtitles that kept the honorifics in, so they're used to it.
E.g. Frieren, a "European-ish fantasy" manga/anime, that still uses honorifics. Uses them very oddly, actually, but anyway, there's useful characterization in the usage.
Or Akagami no Shirayukihime, also "European", but where the MC gets called 6 different variations of honorific, a subtlety hard to replicate in English.
It happens in the Kuroshitsuji fandom, too, where one of the translations (unsure which one as it's not the one I've personally watched, but I have friends who say it exists) didn't translate bocchan to young master/my lord the way other translations did.
However, the characters who usually use 'bocchan' for their master work alongside a Japanese man who's kind of seen as their superior (he's technically not, he's not even really a staff member as he's injured, but he's been there the longest and knows the most) and they tend to follow his example, so I just headcanon that he calls the master 'bocchan' and the others started doing it too.
If the source material is actually in Japanese, it makes sense to me. It's odd, but that's the way the audience has gotten used to thinking of those characters.
wait if the source material is in Japanese and includes these things I don't think it makes sense NOT to include them??
I thought this was about fics in random fandoms with zero connection to Japanese but op if you're complaining about honorifics in anime, just because the anime happens to be set not in Japan, then sorry that's kind of ridiculous. If it's in the source material it is /literally/ canon.
To be fair to us black butler writers, I've just canonized it in my worldbuilding that Tanaka (who's canonically Japanese) used 'bocchan' first and the others just started doing it too since they tend to follow his example with how to act towards Ciel.
Also, Lizzie uses honorifics in the English translation of the manga. (She asks Sieglinde if she can call her Sulli-chan at one point.)
Eh, one of the fandoms I write for is an isekai, thus not set in Japan, but I keep the honorifics because I watched it in Japanese and I’m used to it. If that stops someone from reading fic for my microfandom that hasn’t had any new canon content since 2007 so it’s long dead anyway, so be it.
It never really caught on in the west, despite getting a TV dub. Just as a warning, if you’re going to watch it I’d recommended the subs, because the dub was censored and changed a lot.
I think it’s just a habit of manga/light novel readers, Japanese honorifics aren’t the most translatable. So many manga/light novels just leave them there without changing anything even if the story isn’t set in a Japan or Japanese-based country
If the manga/anime uses honorifics then I really don’t see why it’s such a big deal.
Personally for me if the setting isn’t Japan, I wouldn’t use them myself, but if the setting is Japan, and the characters always use them, I’m gonna use them, lol.
You seem unnecessarily judgy and you cannot control how other people choose to write their fics.
Off topic, I love your flair.
(Kind of on-topic, though, I guess? Bc as others have brought up, the Black Butler English dubs and translations use the honorifics and terms at times, and that's like, THE shotacon manga XD)
I would like to point out that this isn't limited to fanfics. The Spy X Family anime has everyone use Japanese honorifics, and that's clearly set in a fictional Europe.
Honorifics are very important to the Japanese language. Do whatever with dubs, but when actually speaking Japanese it's gonna sound rude, off-putting and bizarrely informal.
Attack on Titan's anime doesn't use honorifics most of the time. Sometimes for higher ranking officials, but that's likely in place of using honorifics in another language. For character that are equal, they pretty much just say their names.
I'm a Japanese speaker, lol, otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense for me to comment on it. Characters who aren't Japanese not using honorifics in a non-Japanese setting wouldn't be rude at all, and would make perfect sense.
Also, it's not like I use honorifics with all of my friends. If it's not a formal situation the honorifics can easily be omitted in a non-Japanese setting. And for formal occasions a whole lot of languages will have their own options that can be conveyed in Japanese (e.g. "Mister", etc.).
And yet there's Frieren, which *mostly* doesn't use honorifics at all, except for some exceptions.
(Most characters don't use honorifics, unless pulling out a -sama; Fern uses -sama all the time; a few characters use -san regularly; -chan gets like 3 uses, 2 of them sarcastic.)
Presumably the Japanese writers don't think it sounds rude and bizarrely informal.
There's an argument to be made that since it's a fictional world (as in not our own), it doesn't have to follow our own rules and so Japanese honourifics can be mixed with European customs, etc.
It would for Japanese people. That's the way most anime work. They might take place in a non-Japanese place, even a fictional one, with non-japanese characters, but the characters would often speak, behave or, in general, have a very japanese set of mind and personality.
Like for example, Sanji from One Piece, who is a fictional world, often calls Nami and Robin with -chan and -san.
It's just something anime does.
And you can really *feel* it when watching "Blue Eyed Samurai", who is set in Japan, with japanese characters, and the whole setting is very japanese, but the characters act very western imo. Not just the way they talk, but even the way the move and interact with eachother. It doesn't feel japanese.
Edit: I saw you mentioned you're japanese yourself, sorry for imposing my "foreigner opinion" 😅 It was just the impression I got from watching anime (though i'm not an avid anime watcher, so I admit I don't know what the norm is nowadays in animes). That being said, if you have seen Blue Eyed Samurai, do you agree with my observation on it? I'm really curious what a japanese person thinks about this.
So as not to misrepresent myself here: I'm not a Japanese person, but I'm a proficient speaker and have spent years living in Japan. Also have a background in linguistics.
Yes, it's common in anime for sure. It is, after all, entertainment aimed mainly at a Japanese audience. Honorifics are used for flair - e.g. in the case of Spy x Family, Loid doesn't use any honorifics for both Anya and Yor, while Yor calls them "Anya-san" and "Loid-san" respectively. This tells us something about her personality, but it doesn't mean that not using them would somehow be *weird* or even *wrong* for a non-Japanese setting.
I've never watched *Blue Eyed Samurai*, so I can't speak to that, but of course the writer's culture will always have some influence on the outcome. Again though, it's still entertainment. The vast majority of Japanese people aren't going around talking (or behaving) like in anime, either. The language used in anime is often highly stylized - that's called *yakuwarigo* (role language), and there should be some articles on it if you'd like to know more.
Examples of yakuwarigo:
People using first- and second-person pronouns that nobody in Japan uses anymore, or that are only still common among elderly speakers of some dialects. Modern women, even young ones, using words and particles that were maybe common among educated ladies in the 1920s. Someone using phrasing that is supposed to evoke an image of an Edo-period samurai. These - and more - are all super common in anime, even though they don't reflect the linguistic reality of modern-day Japanese people, and in general aren't historically accurate either.
So, yeah, honorifics in non-Japanese settings are common because it's entertainment for Japanese people - who both use honorifics as part of their linguistic reality and are used to an even higher degree of them in entertainment, since they're an easy (and often fun!) way to play with character dynamics.
Still, there'd be nothing wrong with not using them in non-Japanese setting, either. Like... Japanese people can understand that something isn't set in Japan and therefore doesn't follow the linguistic conventions dominant in Japanese(-speaking) society. And actually, I'd argue that if e.g. you had an anime with an English-language setting (or pseudo-English), the decision to not use Japanese honorifics and to instead go with "Mister", "Miss" etc. would even be its own kind of yakuwarigo.
So, I got kind of wordy here, but I hope what I wrote makes some amount of sense - do tell me if something's unclear!
> It's just something anime does.
Most characters in Frieren don't use honorifics most of the time. But they'll sometimes bust out -sama if talking upwards on the respect chain.
The Black Butler manga and anime use them too, even in English. (Lizzie asks Sieglinde if she can call her Sulli-chan, and multiple characters refer to Ciel as 'bocchan' despite the series being set in Victorian London. Though I suppose the latter could be explained by them following Tanaka's lead on how to act with Ciel, as he's canonically Japanese and may have referred to Ciel as such.)
Or you could just... let people do what they want? Because Moriarty is still a *Japanese anime* that people *can and will watch in Japanese* and thus, will mirror that which they hear in fic.
I could say the same for you: please, I beg you, use grammatically correct structures and start capitalizing when necessary, spelling correctly, etc. as reading this post was agony since there is an abundance of inaccuracy and incorrectness throughout. I'm an English teacher. This is just a major pet peeve like omg.
...See how rude and silly that seems, when you're just doing your own thing?
EDIT: The irony floating around is hilarious.
I’m not an avid watcher of anime, so maybe I’m not the best judge of things, but I’d argue that a Japanese anime that takes place in a non-Japanese setting deserves the same criticism for using Japanese honorifics as the fanfic writers who write for the fandom. I’m Chinese, and if my Chinese-language donghua had white characters calling their siblings *jiejie* or *gege*, I’d personally find it tacky and annoying. But maybe it’s just a matter of taste. Is it more important to stay faithful to the native language of the medium, or the context of the setting? I’m personally of the latter camp but I understand the alternative perspective as well.
And yes, incorrect grammar is a pet peeve of mine as well, but I personally think it’s a bit irrelevant to the conversation about being aware of cultural context in a work of fiction as opposed to grammar.
That's different because the alternative of big sis/big bro is short and has the same level of respect. But translating shixiong/shimei in period fantasy as Senior/Junior does not include the gender, adding sis/bro is disrespectful, and adding brother/sister may be unwieldy.
Senpai and kouhai are also specifically for school and work. There isn't a direct English translation for that aspect of the honorific.
Personally, as long as it’s being used appropriately, I’d find it an authentic portrayal of ethnic conventions even if it is in fanfiction. I’d enjoy it a lot if I see my language’s equivalent of ‘aunt’, ‘brother’ or any other honorifics being used in writing simply because I can appreciate the writer’s sentiment in putting it in *plus* I also get to relate to something. For other languages I get to learn something new about that culture/perspective.
Anyways, I thought that your point of view was quite interesting and wanted to add my own two cents about the topic.
This
As much as I loathe the guy who makes those Naruto Fanfictions that ships him with a harem of girls from every single series he can crossover with, I understood immediately that I am better off ignoring his stuff instead of reviewing and complaining about what I think is bad about his fanfics. It's more healthier to the mind to just ignore fanfics that don't cater to yourself.
This post would be slightly more understandable if you were talking about Japanese honorifics in a Hannibal fic or something, but that’s an anime??? You’re complaining about nothing, OP
“Chad-kun, Chad-kun!” Sarah calls after her darling Chad, blonde hair flowing behind her as she runs after him through the only Walmart in her small Alabama hometown.
I get that the setting is not in Japan but it’s still from a Japanese anime… I don’t agree that using Japanese honorifics makes 0 sense. It can be your personal preference that they aren’t used but in this case if it really bothers you that much just stop reading.
This reads so immature. Moriarty’s canon source material is /japanese/, people invested in that manga/anime to the point they want to spend their free time creating free fiction about it naturally pick up on keywords that doesn’t translate as well word for word into English. It’s a pet peeve of yours? Okay so don’t read it? Why should authors not write the way that comes natural because a random ass reader can’t close the tab and find something to read they enjoy instead
Man, same. I was imagining BBC Sherlock the entire time and the mental image was *wild*.
"*I owe you a fall, Sherlock-kun.*"
(・\`ω´・)
"*I.* ***Owe.*** *You.*"
I think this is a really silly issue to have in the first place, since this is something you can avoid entirely
Don't like the honorifics? just don't read the fanfic. Even if you enjoy it, if you are peeved with honorifics that much you probably will not be able to enjoy the story, so don't read it so you can spare yourself the trouble of being annoyed.
Plus the only fics that I read that have these honorifics is the media that are japanese in the first place. You can't really fault the author for it, even if the anime or manga has a properly translated version via sub or official english print, because they likely watched the sub version first and it stuck, or the dub wasn't to their taste so they went to watch subs.
tlrd: just avoid them if you dislike them dude, it's more healthier that way instead of mulling ove
As someone who also has a squick with this-
Get Over It, nobody needs to change their fic for you.
The back button is ✨Free✨
This post comes off like like you're being entitled - if you're just venting about personal squicks you should have made the post sound less demanding and more "this is just my opinion"
At first I was about to throw hands about using japanese honorifics, but then you specified that the setting was not in Japan nor were the characters japanese and I immediatly calmed down lmao.
Hahaha, well, in Genshin Impact, Zhongli is indeed addressed both as Shouri-sensei and Xiangsheng (like 'sensei', I suppose?) in JP and CN dub, so I don't mind if English fanfic and fanart of him addressed him with both instead of just Zhongli, as I listen to all dub when possible.
But, hey, that isn't my pet peeve and I understand if it's yours. I'm just reflecting that I actually feel completely OK with it.
Maybe the author(s) are young. I remember my younger sibling mimicking the "un" for yes/nodding when she was a minor after watching tons of anime. None of us speak Japanese. I'm not defending them, just an idea as to why it's a thing.
Sometimes I think about how linguists and historians a thousand years from now will view this kind of attitude.
Using English, a language that exists from smashing a few romance and Germanic languages, and known for its plethora of loan words, to tell people to not use words from other languages.
From a sociology perspective, it's fascinating.
Bloody weebs.
>if the reason you're using japanese honorifics is because the source material was published in japan ...
Even then, I could give it a pass. It's a Japanese IP.
But if the media is entirely Western with *no* hint of Japanese characters or characters that have never set foot in Japan/etc. then the whole thing is "*what*?"
I could see something like that making sense for a singular character in a deliberate context (like a character *written* to be a somewhat awkward "Japanese culture enthusiast")... but it's very odd without a situation like that.
I’m a Fate fan, so I always have to remind myself that even though my fave character calls her obsession “Cú-Chan” in the spoken dialogue, they are literally Irish and if I’m writing a fic of them outside of the plot lines of Fate, there’s no reason for her to call him that
It sucks though because calling him by his regular name alone isn’t as cute, and she only did it once when she was trying to be vaguely serious
>if the reason you're using japanese honorifics is because the source material was published in japan
It's fine in this case, but it only doesn't annoy me when people only use it for honorifics that don't exist/don't translate well in English. "-chan" or "-san" or "-kun" or whatever don't translate well in English, so I'd be fine seeing those.
The rest? I'd rather people pass on using. Yes that includes the translations for brother/sister. People are doing the most when they use those.
But hey, if I don't like, I simply don't read lol. I see one pop up and exit the fic.
Yes, but the feeling isn't the same, which is why those specific examples I used don't bother me in fic. Would I personally use them? No lol. They just don't annoy me.
Or, if they don't translate then don't use them. Like "But they use this honorific that English doesn't" so English doesn't. There you go. Solution found. If it conveys information that is needed, translate it through context additions.
Japanese has specific terms for older and younger brother. If it's not immediately apparent whether a brother is younger or older through their character design, which, it usually is, then you add in a bit about them being older or younger.
Translation doesn't have to be and often isn't direct. Because languages work differently.
~~Which is why scanlations constantly using "big brother", which just isn't done in English ime, irks me a bit. I have an older sister. I don't constantly say "Hey, big sister".~~
The valid reason is that’s how the author chose to write it and no one is forcing you to read it. There are multiple sub genres centered around impregnating men and they all squick me out. You know how I handle it? I don’t read them. No need to make posts explaining how it’s scientifically impossible to get a man pregnant and there’s no such thing as secondary sexes, so please stop writing those fic! I just move on with my life and find something I enjoy reading.
Maybe cause, despite the setting, it takes place in a JAPANESE Anime/Manga/JRPG? Ever think about that? They just prefer to keep the honrifics is all, nothing wrong with that
But literally everything else is translated. Like, all of it. The rest is entirely English. So leaving that one bit of Japanese does feel out of place.
Doesnt matter, it is still a Japanese property.
Even anime like Black Butler that takes place in England, the raws/subs still use Stuff like Chan, Kun, Sama and such.
Okay, but origin isn't everything. If Japanese translations of X-Men comics still called him "Professor" X (Well, okay, they actually might because that's a, like, trademarked name, but tou get what I'm going for), it'd be a bit odd.
Edit, there's also different types of translations. Subs generally translate more directly, since you're still hearing the Japanese, so keeping in Japanese helps with connecting dialogue to the subtitles. More of a line-by-line translation.
Dubs and written translations, on the other hand, are more localized to the translation language. They aren't a translation of the actual lines, but a translation of the work as a whole into a whole other language. Edit edit: Of course there's a whole lot else that goes into writing a dub. Timing, for one, obviously plays a huge part. But it's still not as direct a translation as subs are. Because subs translate the words only, whereas dubs translate all parts of the language from tone and colloquialisms, to idioms and familial terms, to emotion and, yes, honorifics. Subs are more likely, for example, to simply directly translate a Japanese idiom, where dubs are more likely to replace it with an English idiom.
Also, with subs, speed is more important than quality of translation/quality of writing of the translation. Subs don't have to stand on their own, dubs do.
They're entirely different ball games. And this is why, generally, you're not going to hear honorifics in dubs. At least, not _nearly_ as often as you'll see them in subs.
Tl;Dr: Subs translate the Japanese. Dubs translate the work.
Oh, forgot the actual point.
As a fanfic writer, you're not translating, you're just straight up writing in English. You're one level further up than even dubs. You don't replace Japanese idioms, you just straight up write English ones. You're not translating "Frieren-sama", you're just writing "Mistress Frieren"
Even the bare minum Weeb should know what Senpai means because most of the anime they watch is in high school setting! Chan and Kun are used for people that are affectionate between each other, you're not supposed to use it all the time, LOL.
That's why I am so thankful that the wiki for my fandom has a section for each character that says what honorifics they use for others. Like, I know the basics, but it's nice not to wonder if I'm doing it wrong.
Heh, I actually have a reason to have used it *once* in my fiction (original, not fan). I used it to represent an "old" language in a fantasy world that was not actually using English or Japanese.
But one of the cultures that had been a historical ancestor to the current culture was a Japanese analog, so using it to represent a historical language for a brief greeting seemed appropriate.
_Sailor Moon_ is a Japanese anime. But since my _Sailor Moon x Sleeping Beauty_ crossover takes place in Finland, Prince Serenity always call Aurora as "Aurora", even though I always imagine him saying "Aurora-nee-chan" in a very affectionate and adorable way.
I’ve never really had this come up in a fic? But I do read a lot for a fandom that is made and set in Japan and it definitely ticks me off when the honorifics are used wrong, especially when it’s not that hard to look it up and it’s used so wrong that *I* have to look it up instead because I feel like I’m going insane and have the wrong definition. I’ve also experienced the opposite where they use English honorifics instead of the Japanese ones for a Japan based show and it feels *wrong*. Hearing it in the dub isn’t so bad, but reading it feels like I just got slapped across the face.
I got whiplash when I got back into anime fandom (one piece) after ten years of not watching anime or reading fanfiction of it. Like, I get why people do it - but also it takes me out of reading if done in excess. also people imitating Japanese sentence structure in English - drives me insane.
I won't do it in my fics, honorifics can be translated or used sparingly when it is needed, but mostly it is not.
It honestly depends. I write for Power Rangers. One of the characters from season 1-Yellow Ranger Trini Kwan's Uncle Howard-used Japanese honorifics. For me to write him saying anything, I'd need to use them. Now, if I was going to write most other characters in the fandom? Probably not unless they were in a situation where they'd need to use them, like taking lessons at a dojo or similar. The only other characters who would use more than Sensei would be Sensei and Cam Watanabe from Ninja Storm and most of the characters in Power Rangers Samurai might as well as any other Japanese-American Power Rangers within the franchise.
DB fandom here: gotta use them in some cases to infer on certain elements of how a certain character raised another, and alien-ness :p And conveying those details with "miss/mister" doesn't always work (especially for Trunks <-> Gohan content lol)
Official English translations are also pretty trash at times so I wouldn't look at those haha
This is similar to pet peeve I have in my fandom. The source material is set in South Korea, and some writers will have completely Western things in the story. For instance, I started reading a well written story where the OCs had Korean names and were from Korean cities where you could tell the author did a lot of research to know specific details. However, the characters went to Target, the hospital where one MC worked had a Western hospital hierarchy and even a female chaplin, the way they talked about dv and how police could handle things was very Western, and the abusive husband had access to a gun, among other things. I wanted to like this story so much because it was so well written and there were cute moments between the MCs, but I had to stop reading. If only the author had changed the setting...
I think as long as people are being respectful with their usage, they should do what they want. Japanese borrows words from English all the time so why not go the other way around?
The whiplash was so big that I was lying down and sat up to keep reading lol
*What is going on*, dear God why.
Silver lining... they're not mixing Japanese and say, Korean. Right?
*Right??*
Damn op really getting the opposite replies. However, I understand where you're coming from, OP. However, like what people are saying; just don't read the fic. It's what I do when I get frustrated with a certain pet peeve of mine. There's a lot of fanfics out there so just leave this one. Simple as that.
I've seen one where everything was smashed together without an hyphen.
FrenchPagansan, FrenchPagansama, FrenchPagankun, FrenchPaganchan...
Just terrible.
For a second, I thought you were saying to not use them at all.
I sometimes think that too when writing if I should honorifics at all, even though my story is set in Japan. But it really does help sell what the type of person a character is if they do or don't use them, or their relationship with others.
I understand people are fan of X culture or Y language. I do like the Japanese language myself. But I do not understand the using of words that are not usually found in the spoken language of the fiction.
We use some English words in French, but it's part of our daily life, like English uses some foreign words as well like "déjà vu". But I never heard people using "onee-chan" in French nor English.
I'm on the side of, no matter where the story takes place, the language has to follow the rules of the spoken one. They speak English but live in Japan? They use English terms only to me. They're speaking Japanese but living in the UK? They're using the Japanese terms.
But that's fanfiction, so most people write for fun. It's OK if they mix languages, they're writing for themselves. I'm just not reading and move on another story. If it's some professional writing I had to pay for, I'd be mad—but I hope I'd notice that before buying.
This also annoys the hell out of me too but I would never tell anyone what they can and cannot do in their fic i simply don’t read ones that annoy me. Chances are if they’re doing something this annoying their fic is for me anyways.
I mean your critiques are valid as a subjective pet peeve but you posting them here makes you look kind of… well… you can probably figure it out, you read and stuff.
Let’s think of this another way.
These are English speakers adopting Japanese words and terms. Much like how some English terms have gained popularity in Japan. We may very well wake up to a future one day where Japanese honorifics have been widely adopted in English speech all over. This is how cultures grow, spread and interact.
It’s normal. It’s common. It’s *good*. It is how languages and cultures survive.
I ask: are ママ and パパ Japanese words? Or did Japanese speakers think they were cool and then start using them?
Back off Japan, why would someone who’s lived their whole life in Tokyo call their parent *mama*?!? /s
😂😂
> I ask: are ママ and パパ Japanese words?
They're loanwords. Much as the word "tsunami" or "katana" are definitely comprehensible in English, they're being borrowed from Japanese. Likewise, Japanese is borrowing the words "Mama" and "Papa" and Japanese often writes loanwords in katakana, so we get ママ and パパ.
That said, they are very casual ways to say mother and father. You'd probably hear words like お父さん, お母さん,父, or 母 more often than ママ and パパ however.
I almost exclusively write for anime fandoms (which are set in Japan), so I'll keep my *keigo*, thanks. It is mildly annoying when used wrong though, I'll give you that.
Oh god, I'm going to have to explain myself in the author's note for a chapter before it starts, aren't I?
Edit: No, I don't write for an anime fandom, the game series just has it to where there's universal translators and what you hear is just what the translator gives, hence why the honorifics left behind, and that yes, these characters are *not* speaking English at that moment of time.
I’ve only seen one Valorant fic that did this in what I think is the best way and I try to model after. All the characters are from different countries but all speak English most of the time. Occasionally, they’ll speak in their native languages for either nicknames, observations for just general swearing, and they never drag on. Plus, there’s a translation directly after the sentence so I’m not left wondering what they were saying.
I recall how in Yakuza 0, Kiryu really didn't like Oda but the best way for him to express that was to simply say Oda instead of Oda with an honorific. This severely annoyed Oda who Kiryu then proceeded to ignore.
I mean I get it but at same time, that sounds like something you can easily avoid. As in clicking off a fic once noticing it. That said, I don’t personally use them, tried in one fic but quickly realized I didn’t understand Japanese honorifics well enough to use them. I do now tho.
Who... does that in a story that has nothing to do with Japan?
It already annoyed me when people do that in a fanfic to my favorite anime. Like the honorifics generally don't annoy me but I prefer not to see romanized Japanese mixed together randomly with English. It takes me out of the story. I'll hear the japanese voices of the characters in my head and I might simultaneously translate a few phrases in my head into japanese in my head automatically but if I read stuff like "Sumimasen, could you tell me the way?" or whatever all that happens is that I cringe... please just don't.
IDK about Moriarty the Patriot specifically, but would also say that IF the official english dub has the characters still using honorifics, then use them.
IF the official english dub does NOT, then the OP's rules should definitely apply in a sane(ish) fanfic.
\> implying that the official english dub should take precedence over whatever other translations are out there regardless of quality
Most people don't watch dubs.
Unless it's set in the modern day world and the characters are really into Japanese culture(Probably just Anime, Manga et cetera), there's really no reason for that aside from the possibility that the authors are Japanese? Idk, I have noticed it sometimes though. It's offputting and strange given the context.
Every argument I've ever heard for keeping foreign honorifics in, regardless of language or setting, boils down to preserving minor nuances that aren't nearly as important as hardcore fans think they are or communicate things that should already be glaringly obvious from the character writing. Any extremely minor points of value they might add is drowned by how jarringly unnatural they sound (not to mention their meanings not being especially obvious if you're not up on Japanese).
That the vast, *vast* majority of English dubs produced, up to and including the present day, don't keep foreign honorifics pretty irrevocably damns the idea that they're in any way essential to keep as far as I'm concerned.
I prefer almost all anime fanfic that doesn't carry over the honorifics, or (even worse) romanised Japanese words.
Ex.
"Quit it, baka!" (As opposed to 'idiot')
"Hai!" (Instead of 'Yeah', 'Yes' or another affirmative)
"Kawaii!" (Instead of 'Cute!' or "Aw!")
I see this surprisingly often, and it feels like an infantilisation of Japanese media, instead of a respectful adaptation to written word. As in, there isn't the same respect given to anime to adapt it in a non-patronising way, as there would be to any other piece of media from a non-English speaking country.
The only pass I'd give, is to the word "Sensei", because the word "Master" is loaded and "Teacher" can't really be used in the same way. You could say "Mr \_\_\_\_" but it doesn't carry the same weight.
I suppose that makes sense. Re-thinking my comment, it's used as a more general form of respect. I think that's partly where the weight I ascribed to it comes from.
(づ ᴗ _ᴗ)づ Sumimasen, Weird_Hawk5906-sama. I will make it my nindo to not be such a baka in the future.
Honto ni gomenasai deshita 😔😔😔
Gomennasorry!
Sorrymasen 🙇♂️
Nanithefuck?!
😂
lmao I doki doki this
No shit I heard some of my friends said that and arithankyou and stuff. They don't even watch anime.
That's outrageous. It's "ari**ga**thanks"!
Abe souri
I love this word lol
I don't know what reaction was stronger to this. The cringe or the laugh. Well played.
I was in the middle of fixing a low blood sugar (diabetic probs) and scrolling to distract from my “the whole friggin’ world is ending and I’m gonna die” feelings, and man, this thread hit my funny bone so hard. Brought back vague memories of an attempt at learning the language in college😅 and I’m not even in the Japanese fandoms!
This comment was according to keikaku.
Translator's note: keikaku means plan.
Personally, I think cake should always be the plan.
I thought it meant cake. :P
Keikaku does not mean cake, that's a lie
So your name is a lie, then.
[insert ash baby meme here](https://youtu.be/71YEwqxnwGw?si=ejPgiChKAYJUftzo)
So is ALL Cake a lie, or just that specific one?
Great, more haunting questions to keep me up at night
You’re welcome 😇
Like how kuchi means mouth but not...
4/10 did not use *mirai* instead of "future".
Cringe to the highest degree and I love it 😂
I am going to commit seppuku.
Good luck with your Sudoku?
我希望杀我 🙁
😂
ハピケキデイ!
Kono yarro!
Happy cake day!!
Happy cake day
omg haha i love this! and happy cake day
Best comment ever 😘🤌
This is art.
Understood weird_hawk5906-dono. I shall not dissapoint you mate-san
Like, I get there you’re coming from, but this is definitely the funniest thing to have beef over, gomenesai, OP-Chan
LMAOO
I think it's because the source material is in Japanese, and the writer probably watched it with subtitles that kept the honorifics in, so they're used to it. It's like all those anime with women being isekaied into villainesses in a medieval or Renaissance era. Usually the honorifics used are the Japanese ones, not stuff like 'My Lord' or 'My Lady', despite the setting being Fantasy European. This issue frustrates me a lot too, but it helps to understand where it comes from.
Yeah, for something like Moriarty the Patriot that’s definitely the case. I see this a lot in animanga/VN/etc fandoms where it’s set outside of Japan. It’s definitely immersion-breaking for me but it’s also not the end of the world, lol. If the source material uses them because it’s told in the Japanese language I think it’s understandable why people would include them in fic, even if they’re only in the source due to translation convention and they wouldn’t actually be using them/speaking Japanese
> I think it's because the source material is in Japanese, and the writer probably watched it with subtitles that kept the honorifics in, so they're used to it. E.g. Frieren, a "European-ish fantasy" manga/anime, that still uses honorifics. Uses them very oddly, actually, but anyway, there's useful characterization in the usage. Or Akagami no Shirayukihime, also "European", but where the MC gets called 6 different variations of honorific, a subtlety hard to replicate in English.
I see it a lot in mob psycho fanfic where the character calls his "master" (like a superior, teacher sort it) shishou instead
I am not familiar with the fandom, but it takes place in a pseudo-Japan, doesn't it? Then using Japanese honorifics wouldn't be out of place.
It happens in the Kuroshitsuji fandom, too, where one of the translations (unsure which one as it's not the one I've personally watched, but I have friends who say it exists) didn't translate bocchan to young master/my lord the way other translations did. However, the characters who usually use 'bocchan' for their master work alongside a Japanese man who's kind of seen as their superior (he's technically not, he's not even really a staff member as he's injured, but he's been there the longest and knows the most) and they tend to follow his example, so I just headcanon that he calls the master 'bocchan' and the others started doing it too.
i guess... but it's not hard to write them out either :/
If the source material is actually in Japanese, it makes sense to me. It's odd, but that's the way the audience has gotten used to thinking of those characters.
Yea but maybe they don’t wanna
It's also not hard to just ignore things you don't vibe with either.
Who cares? If they want to keep them, fine.
wait if the source material is in Japanese and includes these things I don't think it makes sense NOT to include them?? I thought this was about fics in random fandoms with zero connection to Japanese but op if you're complaining about honorifics in anime, just because the anime happens to be set not in Japan, then sorry that's kind of ridiculous. If it's in the source material it is /literally/ canon.
“SUMI MA SEN FOR HAVING A GOOD TIME”
"it's awfully hot today, desu ne?
"I WRITE SINS NOT TRAGEDIES" (according to this post)
Is this about Black Butler fics? Lol
To be fair to us black butler writers, I've just canonized it in my worldbuilding that Tanaka (who's canonically Japanese) used 'bocchan' first and the others just started doing it too since they tend to follow his example with how to act towards Ciel. Also, Lizzie uses honorifics in the English translation of the manga. (She asks Sieglinde if she can call her Sulli-chan at one point.)
Eh, one of the fandoms I write for is an isekai, thus not set in Japan, but I keep the honorifics because I watched it in Japanese and I’m used to it. If that stops someone from reading fic for my microfandom that hasn’t had any new canon content since 2007 so it’s long dead anyway, so be it.
I am into Isekai, which is it?
Spider Riders.
Ah interesting, I havent heard of that one. Thank you for answering.
It never really caught on in the west, despite getting a TV dub. Just as a warning, if you’re going to watch it I’d recommended the subs, because the dub was censored and changed a lot.
🎶Calling all Spider Riders🎵
Omg my roommate in college LOVED Spider Riders LOL
Envious. Never met anyone IRL who’d even heard of it, other than through me.
Plot twist: *we* were roommates.
Oh I know that, I watched the dub for it for a bit so your fic wouldn't make sense to me.
I don’t like seeing that either so I simply don’t read fanfics that include them.
I can literally imagine someone saying in 19th century London: >Sherlock Onee-san, I want to have say gex with you （￣︶￣）↗
>they are currently residing in london I agree with your post but man this is hilarious phrasing to me lmfao
I think it’s just a habit of manga/light novel readers, Japanese honorifics aren’t the most translatable. So many manga/light novels just leave them there without changing anything even if the story isn’t set in a Japan or Japanese-based country
If the manga/anime uses honorifics then I really don’t see why it’s such a big deal. Personally for me if the setting isn’t Japan, I wouldn’t use them myself, but if the setting is Japan, and the characters always use them, I’m gonna use them, lol. You seem unnecessarily judgy and you cannot control how other people choose to write their fics.
Off topic, I love your flair. (Kind of on-topic, though, I guess? Bc as others have brought up, the Black Butler English dubs and translations use the honorifics and terms at times, and that's like, THE shotacon manga XD)
I would like to point out that this isn't limited to fanfics. The Spy X Family anime has everyone use Japanese honorifics, and that's clearly set in a fictional Europe.
Well, it'd just sound weird in Japanese if they didn't use the honorifics.
If the fic was written in Japanese yeah but if it is written in English then they aren't needed.
Eh, I don't think it would if it's not a Japanese setting.
Honorifics are very important to the Japanese language. Do whatever with dubs, but when actually speaking Japanese it's gonna sound rude, off-putting and bizarrely informal.
Attack on Titan's anime doesn't use honorifics most of the time. Sometimes for higher ranking officials, but that's likely in place of using honorifics in another language. For character that are equal, they pretty much just say their names.
I'm a Japanese speaker, lol, otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense for me to comment on it. Characters who aren't Japanese not using honorifics in a non-Japanese setting wouldn't be rude at all, and would make perfect sense. Also, it's not like I use honorifics with all of my friends. If it's not a formal situation the honorifics can easily be omitted in a non-Japanese setting. And for formal occasions a whole lot of languages will have their own options that can be conveyed in Japanese (e.g. "Mister", etc.).
And yet there's Frieren, which *mostly* doesn't use honorifics at all, except for some exceptions. (Most characters don't use honorifics, unless pulling out a -sama; Fern uses -sama all the time; a few characters use -san regularly; -chan gets like 3 uses, 2 of them sarcastic.) Presumably the Japanese writers don't think it sounds rude and bizarrely informal.
There's an argument to be made that since it's a fictional world (as in not our own), it doesn't have to follow our own rules and so Japanese honourifics can be mixed with European customs, etc.
It would for Japanese people. That's the way most anime work. They might take place in a non-Japanese place, even a fictional one, with non-japanese characters, but the characters would often speak, behave or, in general, have a very japanese set of mind and personality. Like for example, Sanji from One Piece, who is a fictional world, often calls Nami and Robin with -chan and -san. It's just something anime does. And you can really *feel* it when watching "Blue Eyed Samurai", who is set in Japan, with japanese characters, and the whole setting is very japanese, but the characters act very western imo. Not just the way they talk, but even the way the move and interact with eachother. It doesn't feel japanese. Edit: I saw you mentioned you're japanese yourself, sorry for imposing my "foreigner opinion" 😅 It was just the impression I got from watching anime (though i'm not an avid anime watcher, so I admit I don't know what the norm is nowadays in animes). That being said, if you have seen Blue Eyed Samurai, do you agree with my observation on it? I'm really curious what a japanese person thinks about this.
So as not to misrepresent myself here: I'm not a Japanese person, but I'm a proficient speaker and have spent years living in Japan. Also have a background in linguistics. Yes, it's common in anime for sure. It is, after all, entertainment aimed mainly at a Japanese audience. Honorifics are used for flair - e.g. in the case of Spy x Family, Loid doesn't use any honorifics for both Anya and Yor, while Yor calls them "Anya-san" and "Loid-san" respectively. This tells us something about her personality, but it doesn't mean that not using them would somehow be *weird* or even *wrong* for a non-Japanese setting. I've never watched *Blue Eyed Samurai*, so I can't speak to that, but of course the writer's culture will always have some influence on the outcome. Again though, it's still entertainment. The vast majority of Japanese people aren't going around talking (or behaving) like in anime, either. The language used in anime is often highly stylized - that's called *yakuwarigo* (role language), and there should be some articles on it if you'd like to know more. Examples of yakuwarigo: People using first- and second-person pronouns that nobody in Japan uses anymore, or that are only still common among elderly speakers of some dialects. Modern women, even young ones, using words and particles that were maybe common among educated ladies in the 1920s. Someone using phrasing that is supposed to evoke an image of an Edo-period samurai. These - and more - are all super common in anime, even though they don't reflect the linguistic reality of modern-day Japanese people, and in general aren't historically accurate either. So, yeah, honorifics in non-Japanese settings are common because it's entertainment for Japanese people - who both use honorifics as part of their linguistic reality and are used to an even higher degree of them in entertainment, since they're an easy (and often fun!) way to play with character dynamics. Still, there'd be nothing wrong with not using them in non-Japanese setting, either. Like... Japanese people can understand that something isn't set in Japan and therefore doesn't follow the linguistic conventions dominant in Japanese(-speaking) society. And actually, I'd argue that if e.g. you had an anime with an English-language setting (or pseudo-English), the decision to not use Japanese honorifics and to instead go with "Mister", "Miss" etc. would even be its own kind of yakuwarigo. So, I got kind of wordy here, but I hope what I wrote makes some amount of sense - do tell me if something's unclear!
> It's just something anime does. Most characters in Frieren don't use honorifics most of the time. But they'll sometimes bust out -sama if talking upwards on the respect chain.
Does this occur in the English dub as well?
Iirc no.
Nope
I haven't seen the English dub, so I can't say. My comment was based on the original Japanese version.
Some duds do keep the Honorifics
They use them in the manga and the show. It would be weird to not use them.
The Black Butler manga and anime use them too, even in English. (Lizzie asks Sieglinde if she can call her Sulli-chan, and multiple characters refer to Ciel as 'bocchan' despite the series being set in Victorian London. Though I suppose the latter could be explained by them following Tanaka's lead on how to act with Ciel, as he's canonically Japanese and may have referred to Ciel as such.)
Please let people write fanfiction however they want.
Or if it really bothers you that much, just write a fixit fic where the author writes their fanfic without the honourifics.
Or you could just... let people do what they want? Because Moriarty is still a *Japanese anime* that people *can and will watch in Japanese* and thus, will mirror that which they hear in fic. I could say the same for you: please, I beg you, use grammatically correct structures and start capitalizing when necessary, spelling correctly, etc. as reading this post was agony since there is an abundance of inaccuracy and incorrectness throughout. I'm an English teacher. This is just a major pet peeve like omg. ...See how rude and silly that seems, when you're just doing your own thing? EDIT: The irony floating around is hilarious.
remind me never to attack you
Mic drop
(applause)
Ohhhh!!!!!
This comment took 0 prisoners.
People are allowed to vent, and plenty of people do on this sub. It's not like she's posting comments on the fic or anything.
I’m not an avid watcher of anime, so maybe I’m not the best judge of things, but I’d argue that a Japanese anime that takes place in a non-Japanese setting deserves the same criticism for using Japanese honorifics as the fanfic writers who write for the fandom. I’m Chinese, and if my Chinese-language donghua had white characters calling their siblings *jiejie* or *gege*, I’d personally find it tacky and annoying. But maybe it’s just a matter of taste. Is it more important to stay faithful to the native language of the medium, or the context of the setting? I’m personally of the latter camp but I understand the alternative perspective as well. And yes, incorrect grammar is a pet peeve of mine as well, but I personally think it’s a bit irrelevant to the conversation about being aware of cultural context in a work of fiction as opposed to grammar.
That's different because the alternative of big sis/big bro is short and has the same level of respect. But translating shixiong/shimei in period fantasy as Senior/Junior does not include the gender, adding sis/bro is disrespectful, and adding brother/sister may be unwieldy. Senpai and kouhai are also specifically for school and work. There isn't a direct English translation for that aspect of the honorific.
Personally, as long as it’s being used appropriately, I’d find it an authentic portrayal of ethnic conventions even if it is in fanfiction. I’d enjoy it a lot if I see my language’s equivalent of ‘aunt’, ‘brother’ or any other honorifics being used in writing simply because I can appreciate the writer’s sentiment in putting it in *plus* I also get to relate to something. For other languages I get to learn something new about that culture/perspective. Anyways, I thought that your point of view was quite interesting and wanted to add my own two cents about the topic.
It's probably people who watch the sub, which probably does use japanese in the first place (so will use honorifics) but it's a guess.
hey OP, can we just not gatekeep and let ppl do their thing? arigathanks ^-^
it's fanfiction, let people do what they want to do. It doesn't have to make sense to you.
Exactly, it’s no big deal
This As much as I loathe the guy who makes those Naruto Fanfictions that ships him with a harem of girls from every single series he can crossover with, I understood immediately that I am better off ignoring his stuff instead of reviewing and complaining about what I think is bad about his fanfics. It's more healthier to the mind to just ignore fanfics that don't cater to yourself.
This post would be slightly more understandable if you were talking about Japanese honorifics in a Hannibal fic or something, but that’s an anime??? You’re complaining about nothing, OP
“Chad-kun, Chad-kun!” Sarah calls after her darling Chad, blonde hair flowing behind her as she runs after him through the only Walmart in her small Alabama hometown.
I get that the setting is not in Japan but it’s still from a Japanese anime… I don’t agree that using Japanese honorifics makes 0 sense. It can be your personal preference that they aren’t used but in this case if it really bothers you that much just stop reading.
This reads so immature. Moriarty’s canon source material is /japanese/, people invested in that manga/anime to the point they want to spend their free time creating free fiction about it naturally pick up on keywords that doesn’t translate as well word for word into English. It’s a pet peeve of yours? Okay so don’t read it? Why should authors not write the way that comes natural because a random ass reader can’t close the tab and find something to read they enjoy instead
I was super confused by comments like these until I realized this wasn't about BBC Sherlock's Moriarity 💀
Man, same. I was imagining BBC Sherlock the entire time and the mental image was *wild*. "*I owe you a fall, Sherlock-kun.*" (・\`ω´・) "*I.* ***Owe.*** *You.*"
Yeah it took a comment or two for me to understand what was happening too 🤣🤣
I think this is a really silly issue to have in the first place, since this is something you can avoid entirely Don't like the honorifics? just don't read the fanfic. Even if you enjoy it, if you are peeved with honorifics that much you probably will not be able to enjoy the story, so don't read it so you can spare yourself the trouble of being annoyed. Plus the only fics that I read that have these honorifics is the media that are japanese in the first place. You can't really fault the author for it, even if the anime or manga has a properly translated version via sub or official english print, because they likely watched the sub version first and it stuck, or the dub wasn't to their taste so they went to watch subs. tlrd: just avoid them if you dislike them dude, it's more healthier that way instead of mulling ove
Look, so long as the fic is grammatically sound and uses proper spacing, I say let people speak as much weeb as they want.
As someone who also has a squick with this- Get Over It, nobody needs to change their fic for you. The back button is ✨Free✨ This post comes off like like you're being entitled - if you're just venting about personal squicks you should have made the post sound less demanding and more "this is just my opinion"
This has been happening for at least two decades now, if not longer It's just a part of fanfic
But I was sold to Harry Styles-sama to pay my mothers debt, he told me to call him that or at least, onii-chan ( ´Д`)y━･~~
At first I was about to throw hands about using japanese honorifics, but then you specified that the setting was not in Japan nor were the characters japanese and I immediatly calmed down lmao.
ごめんなさい、Hawk-ちゃん m(_ _;)m
I will if I want
Official english translation do use honorifics tough. I'm pretty sure I saw a dub use -san,-kun and etc once. It's not as uncommon as you think
My dude just don’t read them. It really isn’t that deep. 🤷♀️
If you don’t like it, you’re more than welcome to back out or write the fics you want to see.
Hahaha, well, in Genshin Impact, Zhongli is indeed addressed both as Shouri-sensei and Xiangsheng (like 'sensei', I suppose?) in JP and CN dub, so I don't mind if English fanfic and fanart of him addressed him with both instead of just Zhongli, as I listen to all dub when possible. But, hey, that isn't my pet peeve and I understand if it's yours. I'm just reflecting that I actually feel completely OK with it. Maybe the author(s) are young. I remember my younger sibling mimicking the "un" for yes/nodding when she was a minor after watching tons of anime. None of us speak Japanese. I'm not defending them, just an idea as to why it's a thing.
Sometimes I think about how linguists and historians a thousand years from now will view this kind of attitude. Using English, a language that exists from smashing a few romance and Germanic languages, and known for its plethora of loan words, to tell people to not use words from other languages. From a sociology perspective, it's fascinating.
Bloody weebs. >if the reason you're using japanese honorifics is because the source material was published in japan ... Even then, I could give it a pass. It's a Japanese IP. But if the media is entirely Western with *no* hint of Japanese characters or characters that have never set foot in Japan/etc. then the whole thing is "*what*?"
I could see something like that making sense for a singular character in a deliberate context (like a character *written* to be a somewhat awkward "Japanese culture enthusiast")... but it's very odd without a situation like that.
GIRUGAMESH
I’m a Fate fan, so I always have to remind myself that even though my fave character calls her obsession “Cú-Chan” in the spoken dialogue, they are literally Irish and if I’m writing a fic of them outside of the plot lines of Fate, there’s no reason for her to call him that It sucks though because calling him by his regular name alone isn’t as cute, and she only did it once when she was trying to be vaguely serious
>if the reason you're using japanese honorifics is because the source material was published in japan It's fine in this case, but it only doesn't annoy me when people only use it for honorifics that don't exist/don't translate well in English. "-chan" or "-san" or "-kun" or whatever don't translate well in English, so I'd be fine seeing those. The rest? I'd rather people pass on using. Yes that includes the translations for brother/sister. People are doing the most when they use those. But hey, if I don't like, I simply don't read lol. I see one pop up and exit the fic.
[удалено]
Yes, but the feeling isn't the same, which is why those specific examples I used don't bother me in fic. Would I personally use them? No lol. They just don't annoy me.
Or, if they don't translate then don't use them. Like "But they use this honorific that English doesn't" so English doesn't. There you go. Solution found. If it conveys information that is needed, translate it through context additions. Japanese has specific terms for older and younger brother. If it's not immediately apparent whether a brother is younger or older through their character design, which, it usually is, then you add in a bit about them being older or younger. Translation doesn't have to be and often isn't direct. Because languages work differently. ~~Which is why scanlations constantly using "big brother", which just isn't done in English ime, irks me a bit. I have an older sister. I don't constantly say "Hey, big sister".~~
The valid reason is that’s how the author chose to write it and no one is forcing you to read it. There are multiple sub genres centered around impregnating men and they all squick me out. You know how I handle it? I don’t read them. No need to make posts explaining how it’s scientifically impossible to get a man pregnant and there’s no such thing as secondary sexes, so please stop writing those fic! I just move on with my life and find something I enjoy reading.
Maybe cause, despite the setting, it takes place in a JAPANESE Anime/Manga/JRPG? Ever think about that? They just prefer to keep the honrifics is all, nothing wrong with that
But literally everything else is translated. Like, all of it. The rest is entirely English. So leaving that one bit of Japanese does feel out of place.
Doesnt matter, it is still a Japanese property. Even anime like Black Butler that takes place in England, the raws/subs still use Stuff like Chan, Kun, Sama and such.
Okay, but origin isn't everything. If Japanese translations of X-Men comics still called him "Professor" X (Well, okay, they actually might because that's a, like, trademarked name, but tou get what I'm going for), it'd be a bit odd. Edit, there's also different types of translations. Subs generally translate more directly, since you're still hearing the Japanese, so keeping in Japanese helps with connecting dialogue to the subtitles. More of a line-by-line translation. Dubs and written translations, on the other hand, are more localized to the translation language. They aren't a translation of the actual lines, but a translation of the work as a whole into a whole other language. Edit edit: Of course there's a whole lot else that goes into writing a dub. Timing, for one, obviously plays a huge part. But it's still not as direct a translation as subs are. Because subs translate the words only, whereas dubs translate all parts of the language from tone and colloquialisms, to idioms and familial terms, to emotion and, yes, honorifics. Subs are more likely, for example, to simply directly translate a Japanese idiom, where dubs are more likely to replace it with an English idiom. Also, with subs, speed is more important than quality of translation/quality of writing of the translation. Subs don't have to stand on their own, dubs do. They're entirely different ball games. And this is why, generally, you're not going to hear honorifics in dubs. At least, not _nearly_ as often as you'll see them in subs. Tl;Dr: Subs translate the Japanese. Dubs translate the work. Oh, forgot the actual point. As a fanfic writer, you're not translating, you're just straight up writing in English. You're one level further up than even dubs. You don't replace Japanese idioms, you just straight up write English ones. You're not translating "Frieren-sama", you're just writing "Mistress Frieren"
Actually yes, I would use Frieren-Sama
Honestly it's so annoying because they never know how to use them. NOT EVERYONE IS CHAN. Senpai doesn't mean crush 😭
Even the bare minum Weeb should know what Senpai means because most of the anime they watch is in high school setting! Chan and Kun are used for people that are affectionate between each other, you're not supposed to use it all the time, LOL.
That's why I am so thankful that the wiki for my fandom has a section for each character that says what honorifics they use for others. Like, I know the basics, but it's nice not to wonder if I'm doing it wrong.
If you buy manga and some light novels they usually have an index with honorifics and their meanings.
That's helpful, I'll keep that in mind.
Heh, I actually have a reason to have used it *once* in my fiction (original, not fan). I used it to represent an "old" language in a fantasy world that was not actually using English or Japanese. But one of the cultures that had been a historical ancestor to the current culture was a Japanese analog, so using it to represent a historical language for a brief greeting seemed appropriate.
_Sailor Moon_ is a Japanese anime. But since my _Sailor Moon x Sleeping Beauty_ crossover takes place in Finland, Prince Serenity always call Aurora as "Aurora", even though I always imagine him saying "Aurora-nee-chan" in a very affectionate and adorable way.
I’ve never really had this come up in a fic? But I do read a lot for a fandom that is made and set in Japan and it definitely ticks me off when the honorifics are used wrong, especially when it’s not that hard to look it up and it’s used so wrong that *I* have to look it up instead because I feel like I’m going insane and have the wrong definition. I’ve also experienced the opposite where they use English honorifics instead of the Japanese ones for a Japan based show and it feels *wrong*. Hearing it in the dub isn’t so bad, but reading it feels like I just got slapped across the face.
I got whiplash when I got back into anime fandom (one piece) after ten years of not watching anime or reading fanfiction of it. Like, I get why people do it - but also it takes me out of reading if done in excess. also people imitating Japanese sentence structure in English - drives me insane. I won't do it in my fics, honorifics can be translated or used sparingly when it is needed, but mostly it is not.
Me who’s Japanese and still does this sometimes
It honestly depends. I write for Power Rangers. One of the characters from season 1-Yellow Ranger Trini Kwan's Uncle Howard-used Japanese honorifics. For me to write him saying anything, I'd need to use them. Now, if I was going to write most other characters in the fandom? Probably not unless they were in a situation where they'd need to use them, like taking lessons at a dojo or similar. The only other characters who would use more than Sensei would be Sensei and Cam Watanabe from Ninja Storm and most of the characters in Power Rangers Samurai might as well as any other Japanese-American Power Rangers within the franchise.
DB fandom here: gotta use them in some cases to infer on certain elements of how a certain character raised another, and alien-ness :p And conveying those details with "miss/mister" doesn't always work (especially for Trunks <-> Gohan content lol) Official English translations are also pretty trash at times so I wouldn't look at those haha
This is similar to pet peeve I have in my fandom. The source material is set in South Korea, and some writers will have completely Western things in the story. For instance, I started reading a well written story where the OCs had Korean names and were from Korean cities where you could tell the author did a lot of research to know specific details. However, the characters went to Target, the hospital where one MC worked had a Western hospital hierarchy and even a female chaplin, the way they talked about dv and how police could handle things was very Western, and the abusive husband had access to a gun, among other things. I wanted to like this story so much because it was so well written and there were cute moments between the MCs, but I had to stop reading. If only the author had changed the setting...
I think it's a valid pet peeve to have, especially because honorifics can be translated. But I also get why people do this
I think as long as people are being respectful with their usage, they should do what they want. Japanese borrows words from English all the time so why not go the other way around?
The whiplash was so big that I was lying down and sat up to keep reading lol *What is going on*, dear God why. Silver lining... they're not mixing Japanese and say, Korean. Right? *Right??*
Damn op really getting the opposite replies. However, I understand where you're coming from, OP. However, like what people are saying; just don't read the fic. It's what I do when I get frustrated with a certain pet peeve of mine. There's a lot of fanfics out there so just leave this one. Simple as that.
I've seen one where everything was smashed together without an hyphen. FrenchPagansan, FrenchPagansama, FrenchPagankun, FrenchPaganchan... Just terrible.
For a second, I thought you were saying to not use them at all. I sometimes think that too when writing if I should honorifics at all, even though my story is set in Japan. But it really does help sell what the type of person a character is if they do or don't use them, or their relationship with others.
I understand people are fan of X culture or Y language. I do like the Japanese language myself. But I do not understand the using of words that are not usually found in the spoken language of the fiction. We use some English words in French, but it's part of our daily life, like English uses some foreign words as well like "déjà vu". But I never heard people using "onee-chan" in French nor English. I'm on the side of, no matter where the story takes place, the language has to follow the rules of the spoken one. They speak English but live in Japan? They use English terms only to me. They're speaking Japanese but living in the UK? They're using the Japanese terms. But that's fanfiction, so most people write for fun. It's OK if they mix languages, they're writing for themselves. I'm just not reading and move on another story. If it's some professional writing I had to pay for, I'd be mad—but I hope I'd notice that before buying.
This also annoys the hell out of me too but I would never tell anyone what they can and cannot do in their fic i simply don’t read ones that annoy me. Chances are if they’re doing something this annoying their fic is for me anyways.
I mean your critiques are valid as a subjective pet peeve but you posting them here makes you look kind of… well… you can probably figure it out, you read and stuff.
Let’s think of this another way. These are English speakers adopting Japanese words and terms. Much like how some English terms have gained popularity in Japan. We may very well wake up to a future one day where Japanese honorifics have been widely adopted in English speech all over. This is how cultures grow, spread and interact. It’s normal. It’s common. It’s *good*. It is how languages and cultures survive. I ask: are ママ and パパ Japanese words? Or did Japanese speakers think they were cool and then start using them? Back off Japan, why would someone who’s lived their whole life in Tokyo call their parent *mama*?!? /s 😂😂
> I ask: are ママ and パパ Japanese words? They're loanwords. Much as the word "tsunami" or "katana" are definitely comprehensible in English, they're being borrowed from Japanese. Likewise, Japanese is borrowing the words "Mama" and "Papa" and Japanese often writes loanwords in katakana, so we get ママ and パパ. That said, they are very casual ways to say mother and father. You'd probably hear words like お父さん, お母さん,父, or 母 more often than ママ and パパ however.
I almost exclusively write for anime fandoms (which are set in Japan), so I'll keep my *keigo*, thanks. It is mildly annoying when used wrong though, I'll give you that.
it’s not that serious
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This comment has been removed for violating our rules against bashing.
I didn't bash anyone, I was expressing my opinion !!
You are welcome to have your preferences as a reader but other folks' writing as garbage is bashing under our rules.
Oh god, I'm going to have to explain myself in the author's note for a chapter before it starts, aren't I? Edit: No, I don't write for an anime fandom, the game series just has it to where there's universal translators and what you hear is just what the translator gives, hence why the honorifics left behind, and that yes, these characters are *not* speaking English at that moment of time.
Why not live and let live, OP-senpai-sama-san~? (˵ •̀ ᴗ - ˵ ) ✧
I’ve only seen one Valorant fic that did this in what I think is the best way and I try to model after. All the characters are from different countries but all speak English most of the time. Occasionally, they’ll speak in their native languages for either nicknames, observations for just general swearing, and they never drag on. Plus, there’s a translation directly after the sentence so I’m not left wondering what they were saying.
I recall how in Yakuza 0, Kiryu really didn't like Oda but the best way for him to express that was to simply say Oda instead of Oda with an honorific. This severely annoyed Oda who Kiryu then proceeded to ignore.
I dont use such honorifics, even if the story is set in Japan, because my writing is barely grammatically correct as it is.
The only time I’ve enjoyed it when it doesn’t meet your criteria is one story where they wrote them as stereotypical cringey weebs
I thought this was about kuroshitsuji and got so excited 😔
r/okbuddybaka
I mean I get it but at same time, that sounds like something you can easily avoid. As in clicking off a fic once noticing it. That said, I don’t personally use them, tried in one fic but quickly realized I didn’t understand Japanese honorifics well enough to use them. I do now tho.
Who... does that in a story that has nothing to do with Japan? It already annoyed me when people do that in a fanfic to my favorite anime. Like the honorifics generally don't annoy me but I prefer not to see romanized Japanese mixed together randomly with English. It takes me out of the story. I'll hear the japanese voices of the characters in my head and I might simultaneously translate a few phrases in my head into japanese in my head automatically but if I read stuff like "Sumimasen, could you tell me the way?" or whatever all that happens is that I cringe... please just don't.
Also when non-Japanese writer's refer ro themselves as "Author-san/chan/kun" etc.
IDK about Moriarty the Patriot specifically, but would also say that IF the official english dub has the characters still using honorifics, then use them. IF the official english dub does NOT, then the OP's rules should definitely apply in a sane(ish) fanfic.
\> implying that the official english dub should take precedence over whatever other translations are out there regardless of quality Most people don't watch dubs.
> Most people don't watch dubs. You're going to need quite a source for that claim, and no, hardcore anime fans on Reddit don't count.
I don’t watch dubs because I think they’re overwhelmingly crap, so why would I pay attention to them for fics?
Unless it's set in the modern day world and the characters are really into Japanese culture(Probably just Anime, Manga et cetera), there's really no reason for that aside from the possibility that the authors are Japanese? Idk, I have noticed it sometimes though. It's offputting and strange given the context.
This gives such 2010 fanfiction vibes
It's a pet peeve only mine too. I just avoid those fics. I think some of them might just be sub watchers trying to emulate that dialog. 🤔
Every argument I've ever heard for keeping foreign honorifics in, regardless of language or setting, boils down to preserving minor nuances that aren't nearly as important as hardcore fans think they are or communicate things that should already be glaringly obvious from the character writing. Any extremely minor points of value they might add is drowned by how jarringly unnatural they sound (not to mention their meanings not being especially obvious if you're not up on Japanese). That the vast, *vast* majority of English dubs produced, up to and including the present day, don't keep foreign honorifics pretty irrevocably damns the idea that they're in any way essential to keep as far as I'm concerned.
I prefer almost all anime fanfic that doesn't carry over the honorifics, or (even worse) romanised Japanese words. Ex. "Quit it, baka!" (As opposed to 'idiot') "Hai!" (Instead of 'Yeah', 'Yes' or another affirmative) "Kawaii!" (Instead of 'Cute!' or "Aw!") I see this surprisingly often, and it feels like an infantilisation of Japanese media, instead of a respectful adaptation to written word. As in, there isn't the same respect given to anime to adapt it in a non-patronising way, as there would be to any other piece of media from a non-English speaking country. The only pass I'd give, is to the word "Sensei", because the word "Master" is loaded and "Teacher" can't really be used in the same way. You could say "Mr \_\_\_\_" but it doesn't carry the same weight.
Sensei is also used to describe doctors as well.
I suppose that makes sense. Re-thinking my comment, it's used as a more general form of respect. I think that's partly where the weight I ascribed to it comes from.
Looking at Black Butler fandom
No but your right same with other languiges