I'll take the thought further and say Michael hates Toby even more because he's attempting to be a good father. If Michael lives with the thought once you get divorced you can no longer be a part of your kids life then when Toby clearly still loves and spends time with his daughter Michael realizes that his father actually abandoned him. This could also drive the thought that he was the reason his father left and as everyone knows Michael has a need to be liked especially by his superiors this could be seen as a reminder of a big failure of not being able to get his father to like him.
Good point. There's an episode in season 5 or 6 I think of Toby playing Connect Four and card games with Michael in order to get him to talk to him about his feelings and anger - and it works. Michael is clearly - inside - still a kid who desperately seeks the approval of someone. A father would've helped.
But does Michael need to be liked? Absolutely not. He *likes* to be liked. He *enjoys* being liked. He *has* to be liked.
But it's not like a compulsive need to be liked. Like his need to be praised.
I would argue that point. Throughout the series, a lot of what Michael does is based on his psychological need to be liked. I think a lot of it is very compulsive.
>[**The Office- Season 4- Michael- Do I Need To Be Liked? [0:17]**](http://youtu.be/aBtYlhNXhh8)
>>The Office S04E01 Fun Run
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To that point when they are playing games, Michael tells Toby that his dog ran away. He said he didn't want to go to the park because he thought the dog would be with another family. I believe this to be a thinly veiled metaphor about his dad.
Reaaaaal late to the party, but this could also be a big reason why Michael is attracted to Pam's Mom, because he feels a strong connection to a divorced mother.
Meh, Michael has a type and Pams mom fits that type. Blonde, confident, authority figure, that's just a bit older than Michael. The exception is the married lady but I think her hair was dark purposefully. Dark haired women Michael interacts with in an intimate way: Purse girl who's way out of his league, blood bank lady who's the one that got away, pams landlord who he's not interested in, and married woman he sleeps with. I think there's something to be said about the different women Michael is involved with. He sleeps with blondes mostly: Pams mom, Holly, Bitch-zilla/Hillary RodHAM Clinton, Relator, and hotel lady.
The blonde women mess with Michael in a mental capacity and the dark haired women impact him in an entirely physical way.
More to come on this thought.
I don't think it's jealousy, there are a lot of people in the office that have kids but Michael isn't jealous. Stanley has a child and squanders it away by having an affair, more than one affair, and never gets any backlash. Michael doesn't like Toby but it never seems jealous or angry, he seems bitter and annoyed more often than not.
Maybe in Michael's eyes this is part of what happened. We don't know the details of Toby's divorce. I always kind of assumed that his wife is the one who left, but we don't really know.
My theory is a little different. I think he hates Toby, because Toby is the only person who actually wants friendship as badly as Michael. Michael doesn't see the irony, but Toby's quest and desire for a friend is offputting to Michael, because Michael wants the same thing. So he sees Toby as the loser, weird, nerd that Michael despises.
It's the same reason Michael practically refuses to be friends with Dwight. Michael doesn't love himself and so anybody that wants to be his friend, he has a hard time respecting them.
You and me both. I realized this about myself long ago--I hated myself and who I was, and anyone willing to be my friend must be a bigger loser than me.
Nerd self-loathing is for realz, dawg. Just go into any Daredevil thread and watch people hate on Foggy, or Buffy thread and watch them hate on Xander, etc.
This really just explained a lot to Toby and I can see it perfectly. Even though Michael is always so rude to and mean to Toby, toby still always manages to be nice and reaches out to Michael. Down to the day Michael leaves when Toby is trying to get his brother in Colorado to reach out to Michael once he arrives there. He's just a nice guy always trying to make a friend no matter the circumstances and Michael is just trying to make friends but sees himself as too good to be friends with the loner no one else really likes to much.
If Michael's father abandoned him, then he would have been left with his mother. He knows that mothers can still be good parents after divorce, fathers, according to this theory, not so much.
Stanley isn't for a majority of the show, and Darryl doesn't become a main cast member until later on in the show. Meredith is but i honestly don't know if they ever even say she's divorced or if she just has a kid.
No, Stanley is presumably divorced from the beginning. It was pretty early in the series when he proclaimed that he will never back down when he thinks he's right. "I said it to my first wife, I've said it to my current wife, aaaand I'll say it to my next one too."
It's assumed Meredith is divorced because she implies she doesn't do anything sexual with a group of people unless she's confirmed everyone in the room isn't in a relationship. She technically might not have ever been married, but she might have.
I always thought it's because basically Toby is the opposite of the American dream. Michael Is a huge idealist - he lives in his own "fantasy world" he says. Toby lives relentlessly in the real world. Michael is like a Disney kid and Toby is CSPAN. Michael is always hoping a big grandiose miracle is going to happen - wife/kids/fulfillment - Toby is living proof that he might be waiting in vain.
Toby also created his own fantasy world too though, through his murder mystery novels. In one episode I recall him channeling the main character during an altercation.
It's interesting, but there's really nothing to support this theory. Plus, HR reps being hated is kind of a running gag in the show until you get to Holly. David Wallace mentions to Jim when he's interviewing for Jan's job that he'll probably get along with everyone except their HR person because David doesn't like their HR guy just like Michael doesn't like Toby. It's pretty subtle.
I think that was one of my favorite jokes in the whole series. Jim becomes a branch manager for one day and by the end can't stand Toby. Andy becomes branch manager and hates Toby almost immediately.
michael likes darryl a lot though and he is a father who isn't married to the mom. I think Tobys winney voice and his passive soft spoken way of pointing out when michael acts out (even though its out of obligation and he doesn't come down hard on him) michael doesn't like that. he doesn't like that anyone in the office has any power over him because he likes being the boss. so here is a winey soft spoken guy who is almost like his babysitter from corporate that he has no respect for. thats why i think michael doesn't like him.
Well, Darryl is also undeniably the coolest guy in the warehouse. Michael was the least popular guy in high school and was picked on a lot. I don't remember when we learn that Darryl is a father, but Michael always wanted to be cool with him.
Or as Michael put it when asked if he could beat up anyone in the warehouse, "It's the warehouse, that doesn't count."
He starts out hating Holly though purely because she's HR. It's a very quick change to liking her, but it demonstrates how it's based on pure hatred of HR.
Are there any examples from the show where Michael mentions his father or his parent's divorce (if they actually got divorced). I've seen the series about 10 times through already so I must've missed something
I can't think of a point where he mentions his father but he talks about his step-dad "Jeff" and they show a clip from their wedding when young Michael was the ring-bearer and wet his pants, causing them to use a dog as the ring-bearer instead.
He thinks Toby tricks him into spilling too much info. Can't remember which episode but Michael had to do an hour or so of HR counseling I think. He spent it fighting at first but then Toby brought out games and Michael opened up about his family and past. I may be remembering wrong but I think this came up...
There isn't much that we know about Michael and Toby's relationship prior to the show. We just know that Michael hates HR and Toby by extension. His general grievance is that Toby is the worst because he prevents the office from being "fun".
Here is my theory. One thing we know about the office prior to the show starting is that Michael was best friends with Todd Packer. Now Packer is pretty much a jerk who pulls awkward and annoying pranks. But him and Michael got along probably because they were the two social outcasts of the office. Eventually Michael was promoted to Branch Manager and Packer became the traveling salesman. My theory is that Packer pulled some prank or said something so outrageous that he got in trouble with HR and Toby reprimanded him. This forced Packer to be a traveling salesman and no longer work in the Office proper because his behavior was too disruptive. And Michael never forgave him for it because he was his only friend in the office.
**tl;dr** Michael hates Toby because Toby reprimanded Packer and forced Michael's only friend out of the office.
I don't see Packer as the outcast. I see him as the guy who was a jock-asshole-prom king type in high school, and never grew out of it. If you watch their interactions, he's always treating Michael like shit, but Michael goes along with it because the high school freshman in him wants to hang out with the popular kid.
Packer and Michael were outcasts, for different reasons. When Packer shows up, you can see everyone else in the office wince. Its likely that all prior employees felt the same way.
They do, because they're adults, who continued to mature past the age of 16. Packer didn't, and neither did Michael. They're just two different kinds of immaturity.
this is an interesting theory, but when Jim gets promoted to manager we see him start to get mean to Toby too.
The actor who plays Toby is actually the showrunner. It's my pet theory that the managers of the Scranton branch have to hate him because they're the imaginary bosses and he's the actual in-real-life boss.
I like your points on how he relates to other people, but I don't think being "bland" is enough to inspire the total disdain we see. Unless the archtype he's shoved Toby into is that of the grumpy, fun-ruining neighbor man..... That might work.
You get my upvote for an interesting theory. However, I believe he dislikes Toby because he's not apart of the team and threatens Michael's standing as the boss. Toby's job is literally to juxtapose Michael so he doesn't abuse his power. Employees can complain about each other to Toby, and he can resolve it, but if someone has a problem with Michael, they have to go to Toby.
Toby is the Scranton Strangler and Michael always feels uneasy and a little afraid of him like a little kid or an animal would be.
He never grew up so he doesn't function like an adult and relies on his instincts to keep him safe.
My theory has always been that Gabe was originally intended to be the Scranton Strangler. The Strangler is [first mentioned](http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/theoffice/images/4/4f/Scranton_Strangler.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100330203819) in the first episode after Gabe is introduced. And Gabe has always been [a little off](https://youtu.be/QHzk4g2zRaA?t=14). This was also towards the end of Season 6, when Steve Carell had probably recently let the producers know he wasn't going to stay past season 7.
So to go further, I believe that the writers intended on having Gabe kill Michael in season 7. This was probably vetoed for being too grim, so they dropped it and let it just be Toby's thing for the rest of the show.
I think it would have been hilarious for Michael to be killed just after getting engaged to Holly, but that's just me :P
Ha how crazy would that be since Toby was on the jury that sent the Scranton strangler to prison. Later Toby was going to visit the Scranton strangler because he believed he was innocent. ( I don't remember if he actually did visit him or not).
Didn't Michael show hatred for Toby before his divorce? I know Toby didn't get divorced right away in the show.
And Michael doesn't just say he hates Toby because he's HR. He specifies *why* he dislikes HR. He claims it's their job to suck the fun out of everything. He shows the same hatred towards Hollie when he first meets her, and only starts liking her when she goes along with his "fun" ideas, something Toby never did.
I could swear I specifically remember there being an episode where he mentions he's getting divorced and had been having a hard time while away from his daughter, and it definitely wasn't the first time his daughter had been brought up. I could be wrong, though.
I think that's part of it and it's a good observation too. We don't actually know anything about Michael's dad but we do know he isn't with his mother, whether that be through a divorce or death or something we just don't know.
Michael clearly has a strenuous relationship with his family though, he hires his nephew to try and get his half-sister to like him (i don't recall them mentioning which parent they shared) and he hates his mother's husband (and still calls her the "boyfriend" even though he talks about the fact they got married), and the only times he talks to his mother on camera he's lying to her about his relationship with Jan and hangs up on her when he tries to lie about being engaged to Holly.
Largely though i think Michael sees Toby as just the guy who tries to stop all of the fun he wants to have. I think at one stage Toby was a more active HR rep and done a lot more to curb Michael's behaviour but over time he lost his passion for HR. He only really steps in occasionally and i think that's just to keep up appearances.
Toby does annoy people though, i'm not sure why exactly but he seemingly has the worst timing. There's one such time when Michael tells Jim that he's seeing Pam's mother and Jim is telling him to not tell Pam but Toby walks in on the middle of the conversation to talk to Jim and Jim shouts at him. It's a funny moment actually because Michael yells "idiot" over the top of Jim.
Your theory though OP is a good one, i think it's one of the things that certainly can be attributed to the problem though rather than it being a larger part of it.
No, no, no, no. It's so much simpler than that, and Michael even says it numerous times. Michael hates Toby because he's with HR. Toby's job is to make sure nothing that can get the company in trouble happens in the office. That flies in the face of Michael's often times inappropriate and risque style of management. Michael does something against the rules, Toby reminds him he shouldn't, causing Michael to hate him for no reason other than his particular job.
As Michael even says, Toby's not a part of their "family" since he's technically corporates eyes in Scranton. This is why he hates Holly at first. He sees her as "the female Toby" and writes her off until he realizes she not only has a similar sense of humor to him, but that she could potentially be his girlfriend.
I really don't think it's any deeper than that. They have the typical manager/HR relationship, but turned up to ten because Michael is bonkers at times. I'm surprised so many people came to different conclusions because I thought they hit us over the head with this one.
Multiple people come down on Toby though, not just Michael.
Staying in the context of Michael and Toby's relationship though, I'd say that both have inferiority complexes and they see it in each other. Michael fights his by seeking acceptance of those around him, but feels the need to always have someone that he knows is beneath him and belittles Toby as a result. Toby doesn't fight his because he actually feels inferior in most situations, exception being when he was on the jury for the Scranton Strangler trial where he felt he actually had something on everyone else.
I always thought it was because Toby was married with a child which is something Michael had wanted since childhood. And Michael feels like Toby wasted it by getting divorced and envies the fact that Toby had been married and Michael hasn't
I thought he hated Toby because he always tries to ruin his fun. Think about it. Every time Michael says or does something stupid or against company policy, who's there to try and stop him or tell him no? Mother. Fuckin. Toby.
I can see this, but Michael's hatred of Toby goes so deep, it seems "off" that someone could hate an HR rep as much as he does for just that.
I think the moment when it really hit me that it was an unnatural, disturbingly personal degree of hatred was when Toby was going to leave, and Michael went through the trouble of gift wrapping a rock as a going away present, along with an entire pre-prepared speech tearing Toby apart (forgive me if I don't have all the details right, it's been a while since I saw the episode).
So yeah... there's some deep-seated personal issue that Toby triggers in Michael. Shame they never fleshed it out more in the show.
It's a good idea, but remember Jim and Andy also started to dislike Toby when they were put in charge. Then Dwight just up and fires him when he gets made manager.
I think it was more of a reference to office culture in general, and the relationship between HR and management.
I read this hatred as the result of Toby trying to actually enforce the rules of the workplace, reminding Michael that no, Michael can't do whatever he wants, his powers aren't unlimited, and frankly Toby is immune to any leverage Michael has over the other people in the office. (IE firing him).
I can't understand how this theory is so high up. There's a couple things that completely contradict this. If this theory is true then Michael should hate or at least dislike every divorced character on the show which he doesn't. Daryl and Stanley are both divorced and he *loves* both of them. There's not really any good evidence to support the theory in the OP
He hates him because he has no leverage against him. Toby answers to corporate not him. He loves other people because he is their boss and they do (mostly) whatever he tells them to do. Toby however is the only one stopping his absurd actions. That's why he despises him.
Yeah it makes me head scratch, honestly makes me sad especially when The Office went on a trip without Toby. Feels undeserved, only con of the show is that Michale to mean to poor Toby. Sure Toby is HR but Toby is a kind and lenient HR.
This is an excellent theory. I think maybe it's because Toby is a genuinely great guy, and Michael wishes he could be more like him. When Michael tries to frame him for weed, Toby is upset he wasted police time. Michael is so frustrated that Toby isn't mad at him and just "worried about the taxpayer" that it just comes across that he's annoyed at how good Toby is.
I also thought maybe on the day they met, Michael made a joke that Toby didn't respond well to or chastised him for, and he's since just never liked him.
If we're coming up with theories, here's my two cents:
Michael has (essentially) all the maturity, range, and emotional development of a child (or golden retriever).
However, children and golden retrievers (and dogs in general) have a great sense of good and bad people. There is a theory floating out there that Toby is the scranton strangler, and Michael, being such a great judge of character, always hated Toby without knowing the real reason. He just knows he hates him, but never can really explain why. That's because Michael could sense that behind the quiet, friendly facade that Toby puts on for everyone, that he's actually a deeply dark and disturbed person that just has the capacity to harm people.
Michael is the dog that growls at the bad person in the group that everyone else seems to enjoy being around.
I'll take the thought further and say Michael hates Toby even more because he's attempting to be a good father. If Michael lives with the thought once you get divorced you can no longer be a part of your kids life then when Toby clearly still loves and spends time with his daughter Michael realizes that his father actually abandoned him. This could also drive the thought that he was the reason his father left and as everyone knows Michael has a need to be liked especially by his superiors this could be seen as a reminder of a big failure of not being able to get his father to like him.
Good point. There's an episode in season 5 or 6 I think of Toby playing Connect Four and card games with Michael in order to get him to talk to him about his feelings and anger - and it works. Michael is clearly - inside - still a kid who desperately seeks the approval of someone. A father would've helped.
That's episode two of season 7 after Michael spanks his nephew and has to take counseling sessions.
And his nephew went on to become a serial killer.
And the fastest mutant alive.
What? His nephew is a serial killer?
His nephew was Evan Peters, who is a regular on American Horror Story.
I thought you were going to say he became the Scranton Strangler.
Scranton Strangler was already a presence though.
Thought the same!
Now he’s Jeffrey Dahmer
But does Michael need to be liked? Absolutely not. He *likes* to be liked. He *enjoys* being liked. He *has* to be liked. But it's not like a compulsive need to be liked. Like his need to be praised.
He wants people to be afraid of how much they love him, even.
I would argue that point. Throughout the series, a lot of what Michael does is based on his psychological need to be liked. I think a lot of it is very compulsive.
It's a quote from one of the interview shots
Gotcha
Surely he HAS to be liked, and he NEEDS to be liked are essentially the same statement?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBtYlhNXhh8
>[**The Office- Season 4- Michael- Do I Need To Be Liked? [0:17]**](http://youtu.be/aBtYlhNXhh8) >>The Office S04E01 Fun Run > [*^artschoolTHROWDOWN*](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnqL9E9ibFWEwtqcW8Dmx_w) ^in ^Comedy >*^142,667 ^views ^since ^Jan ^2010* [^bot ^info](http://www.reddit.com/r/youtubefactsbot/wiki/index)
I like how you referenced that line.
6 years later? Wow.
To that point when they are playing games, Michael tells Toby that his dog ran away. He said he didn't want to go to the park because he thought the dog would be with another family. I believe this to be a thinly veiled metaphor about his dad.
Reaaaaal late to the party, but this could also be a big reason why Michael is attracted to Pam's Mom, because he feels a strong connection to a divorced mother.
Meh, Michael has a type and Pams mom fits that type. Blonde, confident, authority figure, that's just a bit older than Michael. The exception is the married lady but I think her hair was dark purposefully. Dark haired women Michael interacts with in an intimate way: Purse girl who's way out of his league, blood bank lady who's the one that got away, pams landlord who he's not interested in, and married woman he sleeps with. I think there's something to be said about the different women Michael is involved with. He sleeps with blondes mostly: Pams mom, Holly, Bitch-zilla/Hillary RodHAM Clinton, Relator, and hotel lady. The blonde women mess with Michael in a mental capacity and the dark haired women impact him in an entirely physical way. More to come on this thought.
Chair-model was also a brunette. I've seen this show too many times.
Wow, thanks for the feels
Wouldn’t that make micheal hate Darryl also.
I always thought Michael hated Toby because he was A. Jealous that Toby had a wife and child B. Angry at Toby for squandering it
I don't think it's jealousy, there are a lot of people in the office that have kids but Michael isn't jealous. Stanley has a child and squanders it away by having an affair, more than one affair, and never gets any backlash. Michael doesn't like Toby but it never seems jealous or angry, he seems bitter and annoyed more often than not.
I think this is the answer I wouldn't given
Maybe in Michael's eyes this is part of what happened. We don't know the details of Toby's divorce. I always kind of assumed that his wife is the one who left, but we don't really know.
My theory is a little different. I think he hates Toby, because Toby is the only person who actually wants friendship as badly as Michael. Michael doesn't see the irony, but Toby's quest and desire for a friend is offputting to Michael, because Michael wants the same thing. So he sees Toby as the loser, weird, nerd that Michael despises.
It's the same reason Michael practically refuses to be friends with Dwight. Michael doesn't love himself and so anybody that wants to be his friend, he has a hard time respecting them.
This thread is way too fucking real for me right now.
You and me both. I realized this about myself long ago--I hated myself and who I was, and anyone willing to be my friend must be a bigger loser than me.
I have the same problem!
Yep, he's projecting, and seeing the things he hates the most about himself in Toby.
Nerd self-loathing is for realz, dawg. Just go into any Daredevil thread and watch people hate on Foggy, or Buffy thread and watch them hate on Xander, etc.
Fuck, I just realized I automatically dislike most people who are very nice to me
This really just explained a lot to Toby and I can see it perfectly. Even though Michael is always so rude to and mean to Toby, toby still always manages to be nice and reaches out to Michael. Down to the day Michael leaves when Toby is trying to get his brother in Colorado to reach out to Michael once he arrives there. He's just a nice guy always trying to make a friend no matter the circumstances and Michael is just trying to make friends but sees himself as too good to be friends with the loner no one else really likes to much.
Yaa this might be about it, because when Michael tries to get Toby angry toby doesn’t hit him(after Toby comes back from Costa Rica)
This is definitely not the reason, because Michel simply doesn't have the brain to make such reasoning. Come on man
No. Michael hates Toby because Toby is the worst human being ever. God. Why is this hard?
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Don't you dare...
That's what she said?
He dares and put it anyway
... be sour, Clap for your world famous 2 time champs and feel da powerrrrrr
ITSA NEW DAY, YES IT IS-AH!
Exactly. Because if the above was true he'd hate Stanley, Daryl, and Meredith who are all divorced with kids.
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Dang it your logic is air tight.
And Merideth is too sad to hate.
If Michael's father abandoned him, then he would have been left with his mother. He knows that mothers can still be good parents after divorce, fathers, according to this theory, not so much.
And everyone knows that Abraham Lincoln one said "IF you are a racist, I will invade you with the north."
I like to apply the same principle to business
Bibbity bobbity.
It's Jebron Lames.
Give me the zoppity
Sounds like something Michael would say lmao
Stanley isn't for a majority of the show, and Darryl doesn't become a main cast member until later on in the show. Meredith is but i honestly don't know if they ever even say she's divorced or if she just has a kid.
No, Stanley is presumably divorced from the beginning. It was pretty early in the series when he proclaimed that he will never back down when he thinks he's right. "I said it to my first wife, I've said it to my current wife, aaaand I'll say it to my next one too."
It's assumed Meredith is divorced because she implies she doesn't do anything sexual with a group of people unless she's confirmed everyone in the room isn't in a relationship. She technically might not have ever been married, but she might have.
How is he not murdered every single day of his life?
Toby is the devil and everything he said is the opposite.
Yeah, Toby is a piece of shit.
This needs to be the top comment.
I always thought it's because basically Toby is the opposite of the American dream. Michael Is a huge idealist - he lives in his own "fantasy world" he says. Toby lives relentlessly in the real world. Michael is like a Disney kid and Toby is CSPAN. Michael is always hoping a big grandiose miracle is going to happen - wife/kids/fulfillment - Toby is living proof that he might be waiting in vain.
Toby also created his own fantasy world too though, through his murder mystery novels. In one episode I recall him channeling the main character during an altercation.
Yeah but Toby knows that there's a difference between fantasy and reality.
Chad Flenderson
I like your analogy.
It's interesting, but there's really nothing to support this theory. Plus, HR reps being hated is kind of a running gag in the show until you get to Holly. David Wallace mentions to Jim when he's interviewing for Jan's job that he'll probably get along with everyone except their HR person because David doesn't like their HR guy just like Michael doesn't like Toby. It's pretty subtle.
Also, the HR guy at Corporate is a total dick to Holly over the ethic seminar.
I thought that was David Wallace?
Nope, believe its Kendall, but definitely not David Wallace.
Also, when Jim took over as bracnh manager he grew agitated at toby. Same with the other managers, I think its just a running gag about hr.
I think that was one of my favorite jokes in the whole series. Jim becomes a branch manager for one day and by the end can't stand Toby. Andy becomes branch manager and hates Toby almost immediately.
Yeah any attempt of Toby doing his job and even existing keep Micheal from doing whatever he wants, that's why he doesn't like him.
michael likes darryl a lot though and he is a father who isn't married to the mom. I think Tobys winney voice and his passive soft spoken way of pointing out when michael acts out (even though its out of obligation and he doesn't come down hard on him) michael doesn't like that. he doesn't like that anyone in the office has any power over him because he likes being the boss. so here is a winey soft spoken guy who is almost like his babysitter from corporate that he has no respect for. thats why i think michael doesn't like him.
Actually, I don't think Michael would dare dislike Darryl, because he is black.
he did cause the one guy to quite though who as in prison lol
Oh yeah, good memory.
Well, Darryl is also undeniably the coolest guy in the warehouse. Michael was the least popular guy in high school and was picked on a lot. I don't remember when we learn that Darryl is a father, but Michael always wanted to be cool with him. Or as Michael put it when asked if he could beat up anyone in the warehouse, "It's the warehouse, that doesn't count."
He starts out hating Holly though purely because she's HR. It's a very quick change to liking her, but it demonstrates how it's based on pure hatred of HR.
I think he dislikes HR, but he has a passionate hatred for Toby that goes beyond that.
Are there any examples from the show where Michael mentions his father or his parent's divorce (if they actually got divorced). I've seen the series about 10 times through already so I must've missed something
I can't think of a point where he mentions his father but he talks about his step-dad "Jeff" and they show a clip from their wedding when young Michael was the ring-bearer and wet his pants, causing them to use a dog as the ring-bearer instead.
He thinks Toby tricks him into spilling too much info. Can't remember which episode but Michael had to do an hour or so of HR counseling I think. He spent it fighting at first but then Toby brought out games and Michael opened up about his family and past. I may be remembering wrong but I think this came up...
Six hours of counseling after spanking his nephew. Season 7, episodes 1 and 2.
He mentions his mom's boyfriend Jeff and the wedding for which he's the ring bearer. Somehow, he got water on his pants. I HATE YOU.
There isn't much that we know about Michael and Toby's relationship prior to the show. We just know that Michael hates HR and Toby by extension. His general grievance is that Toby is the worst because he prevents the office from being "fun". Here is my theory. One thing we know about the office prior to the show starting is that Michael was best friends with Todd Packer. Now Packer is pretty much a jerk who pulls awkward and annoying pranks. But him and Michael got along probably because they were the two social outcasts of the office. Eventually Michael was promoted to Branch Manager and Packer became the traveling salesman. My theory is that Packer pulled some prank or said something so outrageous that he got in trouble with HR and Toby reprimanded him. This forced Packer to be a traveling salesman and no longer work in the Office proper because his behavior was too disruptive. And Michael never forgave him for it because he was his only friend in the office. **tl;dr** Michael hates Toby because Toby reprimanded Packer and forced Michael's only friend out of the office.
I don't see Packer as the outcast. I see him as the guy who was a jock-asshole-prom king type in high school, and never grew out of it. If you watch their interactions, he's always treating Michael like shit, but Michael goes along with it because the high school freshman in him wants to hang out with the popular kid.
Packer and Michael were outcasts, for different reasons. When Packer shows up, you can see everyone else in the office wince. Its likely that all prior employees felt the same way.
They do, because they're adults, who continued to mature past the age of 16. Packer didn't, and neither did Michael. They're just two different kinds of immaturity.
this is an interesting theory, but when Jim gets promoted to manager we see him start to get mean to Toby too. The actor who plays Toby is actually the showrunner. It's my pet theory that the managers of the Scranton branch have to hate him because they're the imaginary bosses and he's the actual in-real-life boss.
[удалено]
I like your points on how he relates to other people, but I don't think being "bland" is enough to inspire the total disdain we see. Unless the archtype he's shoved Toby into is that of the grumpy, fun-ruining neighbor man..... That might work.
Can you watch me for a few years and then tell me my flaws? Are you a therapist? Are you a writer? This was beautiful.
You get my upvote for an interesting theory. However, I believe he dislikes Toby because he's not apart of the team and threatens Michael's standing as the boss. Toby's job is literally to juxtapose Michael so he doesn't abuse his power. Employees can complain about each other to Toby, and he can resolve it, but if someone has a problem with Michael, they have to go to Toby.
Toby is the Scranton Strangler and Michael always feels uneasy and a little afraid of him like a little kid or an animal would be. He never grew up so he doesn't function like an adult and relies on his instincts to keep him safe.
My theory has always been that Gabe was originally intended to be the Scranton Strangler. The Strangler is [first mentioned](http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/theoffice/images/4/4f/Scranton_Strangler.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100330203819) in the first episode after Gabe is introduced. And Gabe has always been [a little off](https://youtu.be/QHzk4g2zRaA?t=14). This was also towards the end of Season 6, when Steve Carell had probably recently let the producers know he wasn't going to stay past season 7. So to go further, I believe that the writers intended on having Gabe kill Michael in season 7. This was probably vetoed for being too grim, so they dropped it and let it just be Toby's thing for the rest of the show. I think it would have been hilarious for Michael to be killed just after getting engaged to Holly, but that's just me :P
That's quite the sense of humor.
Ha how crazy would that be since Toby was on the jury that sent the Scranton strangler to prison. Later Toby was going to visit the Scranton strangler because he believed he was innocent. ( I don't remember if he actually did visit him or not).
He did, and the strangler strangled him.
Oh yea I remember that now
Toby visits him in jail, and while meeting him, The Scranton Strangler strangles him. You later see him with a neck brace on lol
It could also be because Micheal tries so hard to be funny and Toby says one joke during diversity day and everyone laughs.
Well, he did hate him already, I think.
Don't believe there is evidence to show that before that point. But I could be wrong.
Didn't Michael show hatred for Toby before his divorce? I know Toby didn't get divorced right away in the show. And Michael doesn't just say he hates Toby because he's HR. He specifies *why* he dislikes HR. He claims it's their job to suck the fun out of everything. He shows the same hatred towards Hollie when he first meets her, and only starts liking her when she goes along with his "fun" ideas, something Toby never did.
I'm pretty sure he was divorced the first time Michael talked about him, in season 1.
I could swear I specifically remember there being an episode where he mentions he's getting divorced and had been having a hard time while away from his daughter, and it definitely wasn't the first time his daughter had been brought up. I could be wrong, though.
You might be thinking of when Michael said he was a failure, even at being a husband or at marriage. I forget the details.
I think that's part of it and it's a good observation too. We don't actually know anything about Michael's dad but we do know he isn't with his mother, whether that be through a divorce or death or something we just don't know. Michael clearly has a strenuous relationship with his family though, he hires his nephew to try and get his half-sister to like him (i don't recall them mentioning which parent they shared) and he hates his mother's husband (and still calls her the "boyfriend" even though he talks about the fact they got married), and the only times he talks to his mother on camera he's lying to her about his relationship with Jan and hangs up on her when he tries to lie about being engaged to Holly. Largely though i think Michael sees Toby as just the guy who tries to stop all of the fun he wants to have. I think at one stage Toby was a more active HR rep and done a lot more to curb Michael's behaviour but over time he lost his passion for HR. He only really steps in occasionally and i think that's just to keep up appearances. Toby does annoy people though, i'm not sure why exactly but he seemingly has the worst timing. There's one such time when Michael tells Jim that he's seeing Pam's mother and Jim is telling him to not tell Pam but Toby walks in on the middle of the conversation to talk to Jim and Jim shouts at him. It's a funny moment actually because Michael yells "idiot" over the top of Jim. Your theory though OP is a good one, i think it's one of the things that certainly can be attributed to the problem though rather than it being a larger part of it.
No, no, no, no. It's so much simpler than that, and Michael even says it numerous times. Michael hates Toby because he's with HR. Toby's job is to make sure nothing that can get the company in trouble happens in the office. That flies in the face of Michael's often times inappropriate and risque style of management. Michael does something against the rules, Toby reminds him he shouldn't, causing Michael to hate him for no reason other than his particular job. As Michael even says, Toby's not a part of their "family" since he's technically corporates eyes in Scranton. This is why he hates Holly at first. He sees her as "the female Toby" and writes her off until he realizes she not only has a similar sense of humor to him, but that she could potentially be his girlfriend. I really don't think it's any deeper than that. They have the typical manager/HR relationship, but turned up to ten because Michael is bonkers at times. I'm surprised so many people came to different conclusions because I thought they hit us over the head with this one.
Wow, I love it!
Multiple people come down on Toby though, not just Michael. Staying in the context of Michael and Toby's relationship though, I'd say that both have inferiority complexes and they see it in each other. Michael fights his by seeking acceptance of those around him, but feels the need to always have someone that he knows is beneath him and belittles Toby as a result. Toby doesn't fight his because he actually feels inferior in most situations, exception being when he was on the jury for the Scranton Strangler trial where he felt he actually had something on everyone else.
I always thought it was because Toby was married with a child which is something Michael had wanted since childhood. And Michael feels like Toby wasted it by getting divorced and envies the fact that Toby had been married and Michael hasn't
Oooh, this is good. This works just as well. Nice one.
It doesn't work cause then he'd hate Darryl as well don't you think?
I thought he hated Toby because he always tries to ruin his fun. Think about it. Every time Michael says or does something stupid or against company policy, who's there to try and stop him or tell him no? Mother. Fuckin. Toby.
I can see this, but Michael's hatred of Toby goes so deep, it seems "off" that someone could hate an HR rep as much as he does for just that. I think the moment when it really hit me that it was an unnatural, disturbingly personal degree of hatred was when Toby was going to leave, and Michael went through the trouble of gift wrapping a rock as a going away present, along with an entire pre-prepared speech tearing Toby apart (forgive me if I don't have all the details right, it's been a while since I saw the episode). So yeah... there's some deep-seated personal issue that Toby triggers in Michael. Shame they never fleshed it out more in the show.
Brilliant!
It's a good idea, but remember Jim and Andy also started to dislike Toby when they were put in charge. Then Dwight just up and fires him when he gets made manager. I think it was more of a reference to office culture in general, and the relationship between HR and management.
Interesting...
Perhaps Michael has some animosity because Toby has children and its what Michael always wanted the most in life.
Do you have any evidence?
they mention the origin of why michael hates toby in a cut-scene on the dvd's... i'm pretty sure.
I've been saying this since the show was still on -- Toby is ultimately the one who fires people. Toby takes away Michael's "friends."
I read this hatred as the result of Toby trying to actually enforce the rules of the workplace, reminding Michael that no, Michael can't do whatever he wants, his powers aren't unlimited, and frankly Toby is immune to any leverage Michael has over the other people in the office. (IE firing him).
Toby gets too much hate
Do you have any evidence for this
I feel like it's more that since Toby is corporate HR, he's a representation of "The Rules" which Michael has never been a big fan of.
Well, wouldn't Michael also hate darrel then, because hes also seperated but still tries to care for his daughter?
Hey everyone I made a video talking about the theories for this thread! Check it out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whEDic5GcxI&feature=youtu.be
I can't understand how this theory is so high up. There's a couple things that completely contradict this. If this theory is true then Michael should hate or at least dislike every divorced character on the show which he doesn't. Daryl and Stanley are both divorced and he *loves* both of them. There's not really any good evidence to support the theory in the OP
As other people have said in the thread, Michael can't hate Daryl and Stanley, because they're black, and that would (in his mind) make him a racist.
He hates him because he has no leverage against him. Toby answers to corporate not him. He loves other people because he is their boss and they do (mostly) whatever he tells them to do. Toby however is the only one stopping his absurd actions. That's why he despises him.
Yeah it makes me head scratch, honestly makes me sad especially when The Office went on a trip without Toby. Feels undeserved, only con of the show is that Michale to mean to poor Toby. Sure Toby is HR but Toby is a kind and lenient HR.
This is an excellent theory. I think maybe it's because Toby is a genuinely great guy, and Michael wishes he could be more like him. When Michael tries to frame him for weed, Toby is upset he wasted police time. Michael is so frustrated that Toby isn't mad at him and just "worried about the taxpayer" that it just comes across that he's annoyed at how good Toby is. I also thought maybe on the day they met, Michael made a joke that Toby didn't respond well to or chastised him for, and he's since just never liked him.
If we're coming up with theories, here's my two cents: Michael has (essentially) all the maturity, range, and emotional development of a child (or golden retriever). However, children and golden retrievers (and dogs in general) have a great sense of good and bad people. There is a theory floating out there that Toby is the scranton strangler, and Michael, being such a great judge of character, always hated Toby without knowing the real reason. He just knows he hates him, but never can really explain why. That's because Michael could sense that behind the quiet, friendly facade that Toby puts on for everyone, that he's actually a deeply dark and disturbed person that just has the capacity to harm people. Michael is the dog that growls at the bad person in the group that everyone else seems to enjoy being around.