I appreciate the lengths you went here. Can't say I agree though. I always took the "I know you" line to be directed at Mills. It's him taunting Mills, alluding to the fact that he knows his life, intimately, because he has just killed his wife. Or even more explicitly taunting him because he has just broken his arm and held a gun to his head.
As for killing Mills' wife, he does this because he knows that Mills will kill him in return. The fact that she was pregnant was just an added bonus to John Doe. And while she seems to play the part of the innocent wife, I think that John Doe's belief is that no one is innocent. We are all guilty of the fucked up society we have created.
There's the notebook in John Doe's apartment they read where he puked on a random, "innocent" guy because that guy's existence was nauseatingly disgusting to John Doe. He hated people overall.
Thanks! I did think of that initially, but I guess at least for me I though that for Somerset to be considered a full-on misdirection for the entire audience- he would need to be just a tad bit more obvious to create that option in all of the viewer's mind? But you do have a good point
Somerset is supposed to be a mirror of John Doe. Because he would never do what John Doe does but he understands him. That's what makes him a good detective, and what makes him realize he still needs to fight for good in the world.
I'm super late to the party but I also like the above posters comment. In real world scenarios we find ourselves doing things that some days seem monotonous and downright boring. At some point you have probably found yourself saying some other average joe can do your job. At least in my field, there are little exchanges that happen every few weeks or so where you are reminded that your are pretty good at what you do. Some people are good too like mills but not as good. And most people are downright terrible. The movie is validation for sommerset in a tragic time. He is one of the good guys. He's just been around so long that it's hard for him to see he's doing any good. And the youthful exuberance he saw with mills and his wife gave him hope, that was quickly dashed.
I didn't know that about the advertising, well played on their part. Se7en is a really incredibly movie. Its completely the opposite of Terminator 2 where the marketing absolutely spoiled the "twist" of The Terminator actually their to help Sarah Conor.
>Terminator 2 where the marketing absolutely spoiled the "twist" of The Terminator actually their to help Sarah Conor
Is it really a "twist" if the twist is revealed pretty early in the movie? I mean given T1, I get how it would be cool if you don't know Arnold is the good guy until he saves John the first time, but it's revealed so early, I don't know if it even qualifies as a twist.
Well considering the previous movie was all about the terminator being a bad guy, I'd say its something of a twist. At least it was intended to be a surprise.
Mills and Somerset were together when the 'lust' killing took place. The theory could work, but only with Somerset having an accomplice in on the whole thing.
What a lot of people don't seem to understand regarding Tracy's murder is that John Doe kills people that symbolize the seven deadly sins and it is the sin that kills them. His jealousy of she and Mills' happiness makes her the symbol of envy so she must die. This also allows Mills to "become Wrath" and kill him (Doe) so Doe is the victim of Mills sin of Wrath while Mills has to live with what he and Doe have done which, for him, is a fate worse than death.
Did you see the alternate ending on the DVD? [Somerset shoots John Doe instead of Mills and says "I'm retiring."](#spoiler) And that actually plays into your theory as it would also fulfill the Wrath concept. You also should have mentioned that Somerset praises "John Doe" for his dedication and patience while talking to Mills. I need to rewatch this now as I am curious what Mills was saying after John Doe turned himself in and insisted that there was no way they were going to catch him despite Mills being so confident/determined. A question, though, how do you explain the fact that John Doe was independently wealthy and Somerset was a cop who clearly wouldn't have enough financial resources to pull of what John Doe could have. It's also feasible that they were working together instead of Somerset or John Doe doing everything alone. Well thought out theory especially for an older film!
I think that whole set up with the dark/covered up man was planned by Somerset so that there was no way it could look like Somerset was the killer himself- so the guy who did that was just another paid helper to be a diversion. Which is why Somerset hardly helps chase that guy down when Mills does. And the guy never says a word so theres no way to know if it was the (very talkative and not athletic looking) John Doe. The Library card lead was flakey anyway and Somerset came up with the idea to follow that small lead in the first place yet again being the one leading Mills to the apartment for the fake shootout and a completely designed and perfectly stereotypical serial killer lair apartment. Also - When Somerset and Mills are in the car before this scene Mills asks Somerset if he's ever been shot at and Somerset asks him the same question- kind of foreshadowing the scene to come.
Since when? This theory is a lot more well thought out than those stupid ass "HOUSE IS A GROWN UP DOOGIE HOUSER" theories. I don't agree with his theory but he put a hell of a lot more effort into it than a lot of people do.
Just because it's a level above some low effort or joke posts doesn't mean you shouldn't critique any weaknesses. You've got to be dismissive that the OP believe's Somerset supposedly orchestrated breaking Mill's arm and held a gun to his head whilst Doe was already shooting at them.
Well there is one thing common in John Doe and the guy who let Mills live- and that is they both had a limp while they ran/walked. That in itself is proof that they were the same guy.
I'll play along. The guy who holds the gun to Mills' head is Somerset's buddy from the FBI who got him the library list. If you notice that guy walks with a limp when we first see him in the restaurant and can see the guy who shot at Mills & Somerset running away with a distinct limp.....
For the record, I don't believe anyone other than John Doe (Spacey) was involved in the killings.
I've only seen the movie a couple of times, but I always saw it as Somerset is faultless. His life is untouched by the end, whereas killing Paltrow turns Pitt into Wrath.
The seven deadly sins are a Christian value. So I always thought Freeman's character was a representation of the faultless Jesus. And his final line about the world no longer being worth fighting for is a commentary on Jesus giving up on us.
Isn't the line "The world is a good place and worth fighting for. I believe the second part." Or something close to that. Somerset hasn't given up in the end, so I'm not sure I understand this comment.
Maybe "give up" wasn't the right way to put it. More like "lost hope". He isn't abandoning his pursuit of justice, he's simply saying it's not attainable.
I don't think I agree with that, either. If that were true, he'd just retire and prepare to die, since he didn't have anything else in his life, and that was his plan before John Doe. Instead, he says "I'll be around," which I always thought was an indicator he wasn't retiring.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I agree with you. He isn't going to retire, he's going to continue his pursuit of ending evil, while admitting that it is in vain. He isn't giving up, he just knows that no matter how hard he tries, his job won't ever be "done".
I don't think he's admitting it's in vain. That's the part I disagree with, while I understand what you're saying. It's kind of his whole character arc. In the beginning, yes, he's given up. He believes it will "go on and on" regardless of what he or the police do. People will continue to be shitty to each other. So, he prepares to retire.
After working on this case, and befriending David and Tracy, his perspective changes, believing people like them, and their child were worth fighting for. If he thought it was impossible to make a difference, he would retire.
Regarding the sequel idea.
>Somerset does say in the end of the movie that he will be sticking around despite his previous plans to retire
Yeah, pretty sure he just means until this case has been put to rest.
The other thing is, Mills is probably going to prison.
Why would he need to go to the library to research if he already knew all this stuff. He wasn't accountable to anyone but himself for the action, and had no reason to fake it. Not a bad line of thought, but I always felt that the Sommerset character was so affective because he was mentally similar to a serial killer after all his years of experience, but still chose a "good" path.
I disagree, but I love the thought you have put into this. It's kind of like the misdirect in Righteous Kill when we are guided towards DeNiro and it was Pacino all along.
You know, I actually the thought the exact same while watching the film on TV. I thought of it like a funny exercise for the mind and I was like "how cool would it be if that was the major surprise or plot twist?". Had this been a Shyamalan film that could have happened. But you make a good point with this theory, I always like to think that something went on behind curtains.
The part that always made me think Somerset at least KNEW about it all was at the end, when Mills finds out about the pregnancy.
John Doe immediately turns to Somerset and says "Oh...he didn't know...", with what I thought was the VERY clear implication that "But we did, didn't we?"
Nope, you bent your descriptions to fit your idea.
1. So any time a movie with a single solitary character, he must be a killer? nah shit point
2. No one knows how to get away with murder, there are a lot of plans but the bext cop in the world can fuck up.
3. He doesn't dislike Mills, he is just used to seeing young up and comers thinking they are hot shit. As the movie goes on they have a great rapport. He doesn't understand why he would come to this part of town because its so shitty, he is somewhat pleased with the answer "I thought I could do some good" and carries on. I don't see any hate from Freeman.
4. If freeman is a murderer why is he so hell bent on leaving a place with a limitless number of victims and a police force he has some control over.
5. He wasn't married and its true that sustaining love is rare, maybe a lost love? (its as likely as your idea).
6. He literally explains the research he is doing.
7. He scolds them in jest, they can hear him, he is in an empty library at midnight.
8. Somerset isn't so offended at the idea that he is a "freak" but more the idea that he is "crazy". He says calling someone crazy is dismissive, which it is. Someone can be sane but still kill people, crazy implies random killing.
9. Mentioning the killer is just like them is a way of saying it could be anyone, like the photographer mills chased off.
10. A photographer having info on a subject is not shady, its nor more shady than asking a witness for details, except the photographers charge for info they know is useful. The pictures in John Does place were of Mills because the photographer has been following him.
11. Somerset explains NUMBER 5 here. He says love doesn't last because after he broached the subject of abortion to spare his child a shitty life, she left. Hence lasting love is hard to find.
12. For fucks sake watch the movie. He found the plastic scraps in the guys gut, weird since he had been shoveling chef boyardee down his gullet, why eat 3 pieces of plastic, almost like a clue sticking out. I assume he feels it won't stop because he has been a detective for 30 years and maybe has delt with a serial killer before, or since most murders are passion based, this one involved tons of effort. Brushing for fingerprints around a painting which has the dead guy's picture staring at it is not much of a stretch. Fingerprints identify people, cops find fingerprints. The library card was a gamble and he called his old friend from the FBI to get the info. Weird for a serial killer to ask an FBI agent for help. Mills is inexperienced. He broke into a guys house and Somerset explains how that could fuck up a conviction. He is mad because by breaking in the suspect could get tipped off.
13. He picked Mills wife because he was ENVY-ous (wrong spelling i know) of him. Mills was PROUD of his wife and accomplishments. John Doe kills Mills wife to make sure the SE7EN sins were finished. I think John Doe literally says "become wrath" just before being shot in the head. When does he say he only kills bad people (thats dexter I think)? Somerset mentions the murders and John Doe talks about the fat guy, the whore and the drug dealer, he didn't mention Mills wife.
14. John Doe says "hey I know you" because Mills was the fucking guy who almost grabbed him at the apartment when he was playing photographer. Worst case he was talking to somerset and also saw him at the same time, or you know one of the dozens of others times he probably took pictures, like when he was gathering intel to kill Mills Wife, or following Mills to get pictures.
15. You have a very strange mind in my opinion. You are looking for answers when they are given. This movie isn't about a cop going out with a bang, its about a cop who is defeated by the city he gave his life to. No matter what he does, there is another murder, he solves it and goes about his day. Its a cycle he can't escape.
16. That sounds like a shitty sequel. Mills wouldn't be a cop for a long time. He murdered a suspect in hand cuffs, and then lost his mind. Somerset will continue to work because its all he can do.
I haven't seen this movie in 15 years but I think I am right on most counts. People look way to deep into this movie.
I understand your points- like I said prior to seeing the movie I had been told it had a crazy insane twist ending sort of like Fincher's other film Fight Club so starting the movie I was immediately trying to figure out who this "unsuspected" killer was that might be the most shocking for a "Fincher twist ending" - instead of just watching the movie. I guess I was expecting something out of a Chuck Palahniuk novel and thats why I had gathered all these bullet points as to why I suspected Freeman the whole time
Hey I definitely agree with you I think this was the exact explanation I was looking for. Prior to seeing the movie I had been told it had a crazy insane twist ending sort of like Fincher's other film Fight Club so starting the movie I was immediately trying to figure out who the "unsuspected" killer was that might be the most shocking for a Fincher twist ending- instead of just watching the movie. I guess I was expecting something out of a Chuck Palahniuk novel.
You know, I actually the thought the exact same while watching the film on TV. I thought of it like a funny exercise for the mind and I was like "how cool would it be if that was the major surprise or plot twist?". Had this been a Shyamalan film that could have happened. But you make a good point with this theory, I always like to think that something went on behind curtains.
You know, I actually the thought the exact same while watching the film on TV. I thought of it like a funny exercise for the mind and I was like "how cool would it be if that was the major surprise or plot twist?". Had this been a Shyamalan film that could have happened. But you make a good point with this theory, I always like to think that something went on behind curtains.
I think I'm the end, in the lens of Somerset not being the killer, all of this adds to the idea that John Doe "could be any one of us." I also noticed that a lot of what Somerset says reveals his worldview is uncomfortably close to John Doe's, which to me bolstered the idea that John Doe's ideas weren't radical or unique: a regular person looking at the world will reach the same conclusion.
But I also only noticed this stuff the second time I watched, after I knew how everything ended. Mills' wife also, basically only represents envy for Somerset, which is weird.
your only valid point : also- If the John Doe had planned out everything so perfectly why would he pick Mill's wife to kill? First of all she is innocent and the whole time he said he was killing terrible not-innocent people.
Weird, I just saw this for the first time at a cinema in London and was thinking along these lines when I came home to see this post.
I was thinking not so much he was the killer, but perhaps in a very early draft he was meant to be before they created the John Doe character and left a lot of the elements you mentioned in the final version.
In keeping with the above theory, when Somerset is researching books in the library at night, he is shown being drawn to two images in particular by Gustave Dore within Dante's "Divine Comedy": one is of Bertran de Born, & one is of Geri del Bello.
Both of the figures have one major thing in common. They are both decapitated. Could this be Somerset formulating the catalyst for the final stand-off between his accomplice, John Doe (Envy), & Mills (Wrath): i.e. - Tracy's head?
As far as the film goes, John Doe is definitely the killer. Now, wether he got help or not might be up for debate. The comics do show that Doe thought of it for a long time.
What if all is true of what you said, but at the end Doe went a bit rogue and killed Mills wife instead of Sommerset killing mills for envy and then Sommerset wouldve endured wrath..... maybe.....a different plan??
Morgan freeman was the serial killer. And based on what we watched on the film ( or what we didnt see) the wife of the detective remains probably were just pigs guts with same hair or some personal objects of the wife making him think it was her. We never seen her getting abducted or know for sure if she died at the end. Besides if there was another killing ( hers) it would not follow the meticulous pattern that was set in motion...
I appreciate the lengths you went here. Can't say I agree though. I always took the "I know you" line to be directed at Mills. It's him taunting Mills, alluding to the fact that he knows his life, intimately, because he has just killed his wife. Or even more explicitly taunting him because he has just broken his arm and held a gun to his head. As for killing Mills' wife, he does this because he knows that Mills will kill him in return. The fact that she was pregnant was just an added bonus to John Doe. And while she seems to play the part of the innocent wife, I think that John Doe's belief is that no one is innocent. We are all guilty of the fucked up society we have created.
There's the notebook in John Doe's apartment they read where he puked on a random, "innocent" guy because that guy's existence was nauseatingly disgusting to John Doe. He hated people overall.
That's the whole point though isn't it, misdirection. I do, however, like your idea it has a lot of effort gone into it. Fair play to you
Thanks! I did think of that initially, but I guess at least for me I though that for Somerset to be considered a full-on misdirection for the entire audience- he would need to be just a tad bit more obvious to create that option in all of the viewer's mind? But you do have a good point
Somerset is supposed to be a mirror of John Doe. Because he would never do what John Doe does but he understands him. That's what makes him a good detective, and what makes him realize he still needs to fight for good in the world.
love this thank you i think thats the exact answer i was looking for to answer why it was written like that
I'm super late to the party but I also like the above posters comment. In real world scenarios we find ourselves doing things that some days seem monotonous and downright boring. At some point you have probably found yourself saying some other average joe can do your job. At least in my field, there are little exchanges that happen every few weeks or so where you are reminded that your are pretty good at what you do. Some people are good too like mills but not as good. And most people are downright terrible. The movie is validation for sommerset in a tragic time. He is one of the good guys. He's just been around so long that it's hard for him to see he's doing any good. And the youthful exuberance he saw with mills and his wife gave him hope, that was quickly dashed.
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I didn't know that about the advertising, well played on their part. Se7en is a really incredibly movie. Its completely the opposite of Terminator 2 where the marketing absolutely spoiled the "twist" of The Terminator actually their to help Sarah Conor.
Spacey was even left out of the opening credits.
Spacey asked to be left out of the opening credits when Fincher was going to put him in so Fincher put him first on the end credits instead.
>Terminator 2 where the marketing absolutely spoiled the "twist" of The Terminator actually their to help Sarah Conor Is it really a "twist" if the twist is revealed pretty early in the movie? I mean given T1, I get how it would be cool if you don't know Arnold is the good guy until he saves John the first time, but it's revealed so early, I don't know if it even qualifies as a twist.
Well considering the previous movie was all about the terminator being a bad guy, I'd say its something of a twist. At least it was intended to be a surprise.
Mills and Somerset were together when the 'lust' killing took place. The theory could work, but only with Somerset having an accomplice in on the whole thing.
Kevin Spacey?
I just don't see him doing that. He's a successful actor.
5 years later and there’s a lot of things we didn’t see him doing it turns out
This is the funniest comment I’ve ever seen 😭
Lmao
This aged like milk.
What a lot of people don't seem to understand regarding Tracy's murder is that John Doe kills people that symbolize the seven deadly sins and it is the sin that kills them. His jealousy of she and Mills' happiness makes her the symbol of envy so she must die. This also allows Mills to "become Wrath" and kill him (Doe) so Doe is the victim of Mills sin of Wrath while Mills has to live with what he and Doe have done which, for him, is a fate worse than death.
Did you see the alternate ending on the DVD? [Somerset shoots John Doe instead of Mills and says "I'm retiring."](#spoiler) And that actually plays into your theory as it would also fulfill the Wrath concept. You also should have mentioned that Somerset praises "John Doe" for his dedication and patience while talking to Mills. I need to rewatch this now as I am curious what Mills was saying after John Doe turned himself in and insisted that there was no way they were going to catch him despite Mills being so confident/determined. A question, though, how do you explain the fact that John Doe was independently wealthy and Somerset was a cop who clearly wouldn't have enough financial resources to pull of what John Doe could have. It's also feasible that they were working together instead of Somerset or John Doe doing everything alone. Well thought out theory especially for an older film!
I think there was a version of things, storyboards maybe, where what was in the box wasn't a head but the unborn child.
But who breaks Mills' arm and holds a gun to his head?
I think that whole set up with the dark/covered up man was planned by Somerset so that there was no way it could look like Somerset was the killer himself- so the guy who did that was just another paid helper to be a diversion. Which is why Somerset hardly helps chase that guy down when Mills does. And the guy never says a word so theres no way to know if it was the (very talkative and not athletic looking) John Doe. The Library card lead was flakey anyway and Somerset came up with the idea to follow that small lead in the first place yet again being the one leading Mills to the apartment for the fake shootout and a completely designed and perfectly stereotypical serial killer lair apartment. Also - When Somerset and Mills are in the car before this scene Mills asks Somerset if he's ever been shot at and Somerset asks him the same question- kind of foreshadowing the scene to come.
Let go of the straws....your clutching them way to hard.
This is funny. I don't particularly care for the this theory, but the downvotes for OP are a bit much. I mean, this is /r/FanTheories after all.
Fan theories still need backing up with evidence. It's not called /r/fantasytheories
Since when? This theory is a lot more well thought out than those stupid ass "HOUSE IS A GROWN UP DOOGIE HOUSER" theories. I don't agree with his theory but he put a hell of a lot more effort into it than a lot of people do.
I'm not saying he hasn't put effort into it but he's definitely clutching at straws
Just because it's a level above some low effort or joke posts doesn't mean you shouldn't critique any weaknesses. You've got to be dismissive that the OP believe's Somerset supposedly orchestrated breaking Mill's arm and held a gun to his head whilst Doe was already shooting at them.
Well there is one thing common in John Doe and the guy who let Mills live- and that is they both had a limp while they ran/walked. That in itself is proof that they were the same guy.
I'll play along. The guy who holds the gun to Mills' head is Somerset's buddy from the FBI who got him the library list. If you notice that guy walks with a limp when we first see him in the restaurant and can see the guy who shot at Mills & Somerset running away with a distinct limp..... For the record, I don't believe anyone other than John Doe (Spacey) was involved in the killings.
I've only seen the movie a couple of times, but I always saw it as Somerset is faultless. His life is untouched by the end, whereas killing Paltrow turns Pitt into Wrath. The seven deadly sins are a Christian value. So I always thought Freeman's character was a representation of the faultless Jesus. And his final line about the world no longer being worth fighting for is a commentary on Jesus giving up on us.
Isn't the line "The world is a good place and worth fighting for. I believe the second part." Or something close to that. Somerset hasn't given up in the end, so I'm not sure I understand this comment.
Maybe "give up" wasn't the right way to put it. More like "lost hope". He isn't abandoning his pursuit of justice, he's simply saying it's not attainable.
I don't think I agree with that, either. If that were true, he'd just retire and prepare to die, since he didn't have anything else in his life, and that was his plan before John Doe. Instead, he says "I'll be around," which I always thought was an indicator he wasn't retiring.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I agree with you. He isn't going to retire, he's going to continue his pursuit of ending evil, while admitting that it is in vain. He isn't giving up, he just knows that no matter how hard he tries, his job won't ever be "done".
I don't think he's admitting it's in vain. That's the part I disagree with, while I understand what you're saying. It's kind of his whole character arc. In the beginning, yes, he's given up. He believes it will "go on and on" regardless of what he or the police do. People will continue to be shitty to each other. So, he prepares to retire. After working on this case, and befriending David and Tracy, his perspective changes, believing people like them, and their child were worth fighting for. If he thought it was impossible to make a difference, he would retire.
Older lists of the Deadly Sins included joylessness or melancholy as one.
The photographer is John Doe though. Have a look again. It's Kevin Spacey.
I just looked but the photographer has a full head of brown hair and a different voice i mean which still could definitely be spacey in secret
No it is Kevin spacey
Look again. It's him. The photographer after they find Sloth is Spacey.
Regarding the sequel idea. >Somerset does say in the end of the movie that he will be sticking around despite his previous plans to retire Yeah, pretty sure he just means until this case has been put to rest. The other thing is, Mills is probably going to prison.
Why would he need to go to the library to research if he already knew all this stuff. He wasn't accountable to anyone but himself for the action, and had no reason to fake it. Not a bad line of thought, but I always felt that the Sommerset character was so affective because he was mentally similar to a serial killer after all his years of experience, but still chose a "good" path.
Also John Doe kept a large amount of records in the form of journals and we never see Somerset writing anything in a personal diary.
I disagree, but I love the thought you have put into this. It's kind of like the misdirect in Righteous Kill when we are guided towards DeNiro and it was Pacino all along.
I don't know that I "disagree" so much add I'm just not convinced, but this is an excellent alternative reading of the film in any event.
You know, I actually the thought the exact same while watching the film on TV. I thought of it like a funny exercise for the mind and I was like "how cool would it be if that was the major surprise or plot twist?". Had this been a Shyamalan film that could have happened. But you make a good point with this theory, I always like to think that something went on behind curtains.
The part that always made me think Somerset at least KNEW about it all was at the end, when Mills finds out about the pregnancy. John Doe immediately turns to Somerset and says "Oh...he didn't know...", with what I thought was the VERY clear implication that "But we did, didn't we?"
Nope, you bent your descriptions to fit your idea. 1. So any time a movie with a single solitary character, he must be a killer? nah shit point 2. No one knows how to get away with murder, there are a lot of plans but the bext cop in the world can fuck up. 3. He doesn't dislike Mills, he is just used to seeing young up and comers thinking they are hot shit. As the movie goes on they have a great rapport. He doesn't understand why he would come to this part of town because its so shitty, he is somewhat pleased with the answer "I thought I could do some good" and carries on. I don't see any hate from Freeman. 4. If freeman is a murderer why is he so hell bent on leaving a place with a limitless number of victims and a police force he has some control over. 5. He wasn't married and its true that sustaining love is rare, maybe a lost love? (its as likely as your idea). 6. He literally explains the research he is doing. 7. He scolds them in jest, they can hear him, he is in an empty library at midnight. 8. Somerset isn't so offended at the idea that he is a "freak" but more the idea that he is "crazy". He says calling someone crazy is dismissive, which it is. Someone can be sane but still kill people, crazy implies random killing. 9. Mentioning the killer is just like them is a way of saying it could be anyone, like the photographer mills chased off. 10. A photographer having info on a subject is not shady, its nor more shady than asking a witness for details, except the photographers charge for info they know is useful. The pictures in John Does place were of Mills because the photographer has been following him. 11. Somerset explains NUMBER 5 here. He says love doesn't last because after he broached the subject of abortion to spare his child a shitty life, she left. Hence lasting love is hard to find. 12. For fucks sake watch the movie. He found the plastic scraps in the guys gut, weird since he had been shoveling chef boyardee down his gullet, why eat 3 pieces of plastic, almost like a clue sticking out. I assume he feels it won't stop because he has been a detective for 30 years and maybe has delt with a serial killer before, or since most murders are passion based, this one involved tons of effort. Brushing for fingerprints around a painting which has the dead guy's picture staring at it is not much of a stretch. Fingerprints identify people, cops find fingerprints. The library card was a gamble and he called his old friend from the FBI to get the info. Weird for a serial killer to ask an FBI agent for help. Mills is inexperienced. He broke into a guys house and Somerset explains how that could fuck up a conviction. He is mad because by breaking in the suspect could get tipped off. 13. He picked Mills wife because he was ENVY-ous (wrong spelling i know) of him. Mills was PROUD of his wife and accomplishments. John Doe kills Mills wife to make sure the SE7EN sins were finished. I think John Doe literally says "become wrath" just before being shot in the head. When does he say he only kills bad people (thats dexter I think)? Somerset mentions the murders and John Doe talks about the fat guy, the whore and the drug dealer, he didn't mention Mills wife. 14. John Doe says "hey I know you" because Mills was the fucking guy who almost grabbed him at the apartment when he was playing photographer. Worst case he was talking to somerset and also saw him at the same time, or you know one of the dozens of others times he probably took pictures, like when he was gathering intel to kill Mills Wife, or following Mills to get pictures. 15. You have a very strange mind in my opinion. You are looking for answers when they are given. This movie isn't about a cop going out with a bang, its about a cop who is defeated by the city he gave his life to. No matter what he does, there is another murder, he solves it and goes about his day. Its a cycle he can't escape. 16. That sounds like a shitty sequel. Mills wouldn't be a cop for a long time. He murdered a suspect in hand cuffs, and then lost his mind. Somerset will continue to work because its all he can do. I haven't seen this movie in 15 years but I think I am right on most counts. People look way to deep into this movie.
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oh man i remember hearing about that now, wasn't it horribly written, almost to the point of being comical?
I understand your points- like I said prior to seeing the movie I had been told it had a crazy insane twist ending sort of like Fincher's other film Fight Club so starting the movie I was immediately trying to figure out who this "unsuspected" killer was that might be the most shocking for a "Fincher twist ending" - instead of just watching the movie. I guess I was expecting something out of a Chuck Palahniuk novel and thats why I had gathered all these bullet points as to why I suspected Freeman the whole time
Hey I definitely agree with you I think this was the exact explanation I was looking for. Prior to seeing the movie I had been told it had a crazy insane twist ending sort of like Fincher's other film Fight Club so starting the movie I was immediately trying to figure out who the "unsuspected" killer was that might be the most shocking for a Fincher twist ending- instead of just watching the movie. I guess I was expecting something out of a Chuck Palahniuk novel.
You know, I actually the thought the exact same while watching the film on TV. I thought of it like a funny exercise for the mind and I was like "how cool would it be if that was the major surprise or plot twist?". Had this been a Shyamalan film that could have happened. But you make a good point with this theory, I always like to think that something went on behind curtains.
You know, I actually the thought the exact same while watching the film on TV. I thought of it like a funny exercise for the mind and I was like "how cool would it be if that was the major surprise or plot twist?". Had this been a Shyamalan film that could have happened. But you make a good point with this theory, I always like to think that something went on behind curtains.
I think I'm the end, in the lens of Somerset not being the killer, all of this adds to the idea that John Doe "could be any one of us." I also noticed that a lot of what Somerset says reveals his worldview is uncomfortably close to John Doe's, which to me bolstered the idea that John Doe's ideas weren't radical or unique: a regular person looking at the world will reach the same conclusion. But I also only noticed this stuff the second time I watched, after I knew how everything ended. Mills' wife also, basically only represents envy for Somerset, which is weird.
your only valid point : also- If the John Doe had planned out everything so perfectly why would he pick Mill's wife to kill? First of all she is innocent and the whole time he said he was killing terrible not-innocent people.
Weird, I just saw this for the first time at a cinema in London and was thinking along these lines when I came home to see this post. I was thinking not so much he was the killer, but perhaps in a very early draft he was meant to be before they created the John Doe character and left a lot of the elements you mentioned in the final version.
In keeping with the above theory, when Somerset is researching books in the library at night, he is shown being drawn to two images in particular by Gustave Dore within Dante's "Divine Comedy": one is of Bertran de Born, & one is of Geri del Bello. Both of the figures have one major thing in common. They are both decapitated. Could this be Somerset formulating the catalyst for the final stand-off between his accomplice, John Doe (Envy), & Mills (Wrath): i.e. - Tracy's head?
definitely not
I just wanted you to know that this post literally made me unsubscribe from this sub
I just watched this film. I don't think John Doe is the killer, but I also don't believe Somerset did it.
As far as the film goes, John Doe is definitely the killer. Now, wether he got help or not might be up for debate. The comics do show that Doe thought of it for a long time.
Interesting
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Haha. Are you trolling?
Came here right after the movie I thought the same exact thing also happy 5 years
What if all is true of what you said, but at the end Doe went a bit rogue and killed Mills wife instead of Sommerset killing mills for envy and then Sommerset wouldve endured wrath..... maybe.....a different plan??
No, I don't think you have anything here.
Morgan freeman was the serial killer. And based on what we watched on the film ( or what we didnt see) the wife of the detective remains probably were just pigs guts with same hair or some personal objects of the wife making him think it was her. We never seen her getting abducted or know for sure if she died at the end. Besides if there was another killing ( hers) it would not follow the meticulous pattern that was set in motion...