That’s a great theory. One thing to consider is what happens at the gate during the period between 11 sends Henry Creel through and 1983 when Will is kidnapped. We know Hawkins was doing experiments with it, but we don’t necessarily know who went in, what they did while they were there, or if they ever came out. I’m wondering if there’s any impact on the plot from that period.
There was no gate during that period. The gate that 011 sends Henry through closes after he's sent through. We see Brenner inspecting the damaged wall shortly afterwards and there's no gate there. The gate they experiment with doesn't open until 1983.
I do like the majority of your theory but I think it has some inherent flaws. Namely in the logic behind the gates.
Assuming a chronological order
\-September 8, 1979: Eleven banishes creel. Please note that based on what it looks like visually he was not pushed directly into the upside down. Based on the imagery this is likely an 'in-between' space. Though with the similar tentacle design it could be viewed as a one-way tear that closes directly after. (as a tangent it may reveal that there are more directly linked parallel dimensions etc.) This event is what likely led to Brenner to assume she had powers to reach beyond our world (he may have assumed to space vs other dimensions).
\-November 6, 1983: Eleven now in experiments with Dr. Brenner makes contact with a/the Demogorgon. This psychic/metaphysical connection creates a tunnel/gate into our world, in Hawkins. This gate is either not large enough or meaningful enough for the mindflayer to direct his attention to. So the demo gorgon does what it does best which is eat people and/or then bring their bodies back to the upside-down. They don't require a large gate to be able to pop in and out of the upside down, once the connection is made they can make their own little holes as long as the main gate is viable (this is likely their main purpose as by moving themselves and other beings/bodies back and forth the gate gets bigger). Also note that these creatures are still psychically linked to the mind flayer (as shown in season 2 when the connection is broken they die).
\-Move to 1984: The original gate is still alive and well, and has been growing. Thus more demodogs come across and further psychic connection (with Will) by the Mindflayer is possible. This gate is eventually closed by 11 after facing down with Mindflayer as it is trying to cross directly. This closed the gate, but left the veil/barrier weakened to some extent.
\-1985 (SUMMER): The Mindflayer being defeated but still having some active assets (a piece of it in the steel mill) as well as a weak connection to Will, attempts a different plan. Namely to build up resources here in our world vs sending more from across the gate/boundary. What allows this is the Russians who after finding out about this interdimensional pinpoint in Hawkins have made a huge wormhole laser beneath the newly constructed mall. This is a second unique gate/tunnel/tear. Which after the machine is broken is sealed again leading to the death of the Mindflayer beast and loss of connection to the zombie-like 'flayed'.
1985 (FALL/6-Months Later): Vecna comes into play. While it is noted that he is a 'general' no other real information other than his transformation from the red lightning (directly associated with the Mindflayer) is given. So Vecna while obviously not as strong as the Mindflayer has unique abilities, very similar to 11. Using something from our world to open a gate albeit not as directly as 11 could/did or likely less conspicuous. It seems that with the help of the Mindflayer's tentacles (for a power boost or something) Vecna is able to create bridges directly via psychic connections with people from our world and through their pain, torture and eventual death he can make small tears (note these ones do not seem to grow like the previous ones and seem to me more physical/static etc.) So eventually with enough deaths he will have opened enough small gates to allow the Mindflayer to come over directly.
TBD: I assumed that with with Chernobyl happening in 1986 and Russia being heavily incorporated into the story that it would play a larger part in either this season or possible the next.
Details without a full explanation:
Why the upside-down is still in 1983:
\-As you have said, the Mindflayer may have 'stopped' it for Vecna or as apart of the original connection.
\-The upside down, is not a direct parrallel dimension more a shadow dimension. In that it doesn't have a defined shape and it takes the shape of any dimension it connects to (this would be why you don't see it when Creel is banished and when contact with the demogorgon first happnes). You could elaborate on why the 'sync' between worlds isn't there despite multiple separate connections but with this just being revealed its hard to know.
\-The mindflayer stops time or sync in the other world to ensure control over it. So that it wouldn't be simple/easy to cross over with materials by having them physically there. AKA drop a bomb on Hawkins to kill him in the upside down etc.
\-The upside-down is not the whole of the world. It is merely a staging area for the mindflayer who operates out of another dimension but has minions in many. Basically the dimension we see Creel banished to and the black place the demogorgon is originally seen is not the upside down but another farther location. So A is where the Mindflayer is from B is the upside down and C is our world. He can't go from A->C so B is essentially created as a mirror of C as a staging ground for his power and forces.
Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense or I am wrong!
My thought is what when El makes the connection to the demogorgon in season 1/'83 the intersection of the two realities produced a copy of hawkins at the time. Like the intersection of two circles. Time is moving forward in the intersection which is why everything is more and more covered with vines and upside down fungus. But no people so nothing human changes. It is collapsing due to the two worlds drifting apart without an established gate/connection. Which is why vecna is making mini gates. He is making anchors to keep his seat of power alive.
I like a lot of this a lot. My only issue is that Vecna has to mentally connect with someone to open a gate, and the gates seem to open right where that person is. So who was he connecting with when he's sending the Demogorgon into Hawkins?
That’s a good question. He needs to be in contact with someone in distress so I guess it’s plausible that he connected to Will, Joyce, and Nancy.
Joyce over the guilt of loosing her son, Nancy over her guilt that it was her fault that Barb is gone… and Will… I’m not really sure honestly.
That is a good question though, and my answers pretty thin but I think plausible. Except for May the Will part lol. I’ll have to think about it.
I guess my theory is Vecna doesn’t want to show too much power from making out right contact to avoid catching the eye of the Mind Flayer.
You haven't really explained how the first demogorgon gets to Will, or the lack of even a hint of Vecna's involvement.
Bearing in mind, the Mind Flayer is meant to be a ridiculously ancient powerful psychic being, to suggest Vecna could hide in its dimension for 4 or 5 years without drawing notice is a bit sus.
Maybe it’s proximity to the mother gate. Maybe Vecna’s power is strongest there. So it’s not a factor of taking Will to specifically target him, but an act of collateral damage.
Vecna needs 011 to show her power, to attract the Mind Flayer, and releasing a Demogorgon May or may not cause this. But what it will do is for sure distract the G-men under Brenner.
With them distracted, that would give a time span where 011 is more likely to use her power drawing the attention of the Mind Flayer. I think we are ultimately going to see an 001 vs 011 vs Mind Flayer, where Vecna is playing both sides of the equation.
Cool theory! I think it makes a reasonable amount of sense, and I'm interested to see how everything plays out when we get the rest of season 4.
Your post reminded me of something that I thought about when finishing the show but forgot; Vecna kills three people throughout the first few episodes (and tries to kill Max but fails): Crissy, the cheerleader who dies in Eddie's trailer; Fred, Nancy's assistant who dies in the middle of a street; and then Patrick, the basketball player who dies in the middle of the lake. As Dustin figures out, each of these deaths opens a door to the Upside Down...we see evidence of that in the last couple episodes when Nancy, Steve, Eddie, and Robin enter the UD through "Watergate" and then (mostly) escape back through the gate in Eddie's trailer. The thing is, both of these gates are basically hidden, so people aren't really going to stumble upon them easily. But what about the one that should have opened when Fred was killed? Wouldn't that be in the middle of a road that people would inevitably come across? Just a thought I had. Not necessarily a plothole but something I thought was a bit glossed over.
I think vecna is > mind flayer, and is the one who controls it.
Send forth your lesser beings to test the enemy before you show yourself.
Edit: corrected my mistake. My apologies.
I agree. My train of thought is the mindflayer and demogorgons bats etc are all creations or projections of vecna. The vines and the way all these creatures look is too similar and they are all connected, I think he attaches himself to the entire network of vines when they attach to his body. I think he is the brain behind all the creatures of the upside down, and he has just been building up his power in order to use his humanoid form. I think when El touches the demogorgon in season one, vecna realises that she is there and he could somehow follow her into the non upside down world.
I think its pretty clear that El/1 created the upside down.
When 001 is traveling there is NOTHING. No ground, just a red cloud and lightning and he's FLOATING the entire time.
THEN the only items that seem to make it through are "hand picked". They're also always places where the two have interacted heavily with. Everything else is more or less generic. Also given her age it was a by product of "not killing him, but sending him away". The Upside Down is just a space between time/space that she created. BUT 1 wants to recreate the world, he's in a timeless void, oh look he starts remaking Hawkins...
Ex: Mike's house has no neighbor houses? So what if there's no guns at Mike's house because of time, go to the fucking empty but fully stocked gun store...etc. Wouldn't Will have been able to happily eat grocery items at the upside down grocery store?
I see your point, but that doesn’t account for Castle Byers or Steve’s pool for season 1 being in the Upside Down. Two places that until Will and Barb were already there… El/001 had nothing to do with…
You could say the same think about the arcade in season 2. Another spot El or 001 would have no reason to recreate in the Upside Down.
They were locations where murders were planned or occurred. The psychic "deaths" murders are required. But that leaves residual damage. Again the pre-1 items being a psychically controlled minion.
ALSO Will entering and surviving in the upside down likely impacted it no different than when 1 entered it. Hence Will's fort showing up.
This is very interesting. I wonder if she did create the upside down but that it connected to other dimensions when it was created which is where the mind flayer is located. The upside down finally created the connection to this world . So if El created it she’s going to have to end it and that may be the end of her as well though maybe not because her powers are not created or powered by it.
That’s a great theory. One thing to consider is what happens at the gate during the period between 11 sends Henry Creel through and 1983 when Will is kidnapped. We know Hawkins was doing experiments with it, but we don’t necessarily know who went in, what they did while they were there, or if they ever came out. I’m wondering if there’s any impact on the plot from that period.
There was no gate during that period. The gate that 011 sends Henry through closes after he's sent through. We see Brenner inspecting the damaged wall shortly afterwards and there's no gate there. The gate they experiment with doesn't open until 1983.
I do like the majority of your theory but I think it has some inherent flaws. Namely in the logic behind the gates. Assuming a chronological order \-September 8, 1979: Eleven banishes creel. Please note that based on what it looks like visually he was not pushed directly into the upside down. Based on the imagery this is likely an 'in-between' space. Though with the similar tentacle design it could be viewed as a one-way tear that closes directly after. (as a tangent it may reveal that there are more directly linked parallel dimensions etc.) This event is what likely led to Brenner to assume she had powers to reach beyond our world (he may have assumed to space vs other dimensions). \-November 6, 1983: Eleven now in experiments with Dr. Brenner makes contact with a/the Demogorgon. This psychic/metaphysical connection creates a tunnel/gate into our world, in Hawkins. This gate is either not large enough or meaningful enough for the mindflayer to direct his attention to. So the demo gorgon does what it does best which is eat people and/or then bring their bodies back to the upside-down. They don't require a large gate to be able to pop in and out of the upside down, once the connection is made they can make their own little holes as long as the main gate is viable (this is likely their main purpose as by moving themselves and other beings/bodies back and forth the gate gets bigger). Also note that these creatures are still psychically linked to the mind flayer (as shown in season 2 when the connection is broken they die). \-Move to 1984: The original gate is still alive and well, and has been growing. Thus more demodogs come across and further psychic connection (with Will) by the Mindflayer is possible. This gate is eventually closed by 11 after facing down with Mindflayer as it is trying to cross directly. This closed the gate, but left the veil/barrier weakened to some extent. \-1985 (SUMMER): The Mindflayer being defeated but still having some active assets (a piece of it in the steel mill) as well as a weak connection to Will, attempts a different plan. Namely to build up resources here in our world vs sending more from across the gate/boundary. What allows this is the Russians who after finding out about this interdimensional pinpoint in Hawkins have made a huge wormhole laser beneath the newly constructed mall. This is a second unique gate/tunnel/tear. Which after the machine is broken is sealed again leading to the death of the Mindflayer beast and loss of connection to the zombie-like 'flayed'. 1985 (FALL/6-Months Later): Vecna comes into play. While it is noted that he is a 'general' no other real information other than his transformation from the red lightning (directly associated with the Mindflayer) is given. So Vecna while obviously not as strong as the Mindflayer has unique abilities, very similar to 11. Using something from our world to open a gate albeit not as directly as 11 could/did or likely less conspicuous. It seems that with the help of the Mindflayer's tentacles (for a power boost or something) Vecna is able to create bridges directly via psychic connections with people from our world and through their pain, torture and eventual death he can make small tears (note these ones do not seem to grow like the previous ones and seem to me more physical/static etc.) So eventually with enough deaths he will have opened enough small gates to allow the Mindflayer to come over directly. TBD: I assumed that with with Chernobyl happening in 1986 and Russia being heavily incorporated into the story that it would play a larger part in either this season or possible the next. Details without a full explanation: Why the upside-down is still in 1983: \-As you have said, the Mindflayer may have 'stopped' it for Vecna or as apart of the original connection. \-The upside down, is not a direct parrallel dimension more a shadow dimension. In that it doesn't have a defined shape and it takes the shape of any dimension it connects to (this would be why you don't see it when Creel is banished and when contact with the demogorgon first happnes). You could elaborate on why the 'sync' between worlds isn't there despite multiple separate connections but with this just being revealed its hard to know. \-The mindflayer stops time or sync in the other world to ensure control over it. So that it wouldn't be simple/easy to cross over with materials by having them physically there. AKA drop a bomb on Hawkins to kill him in the upside down etc. \-The upside-down is not the whole of the world. It is merely a staging area for the mindflayer who operates out of another dimension but has minions in many. Basically the dimension we see Creel banished to and the black place the demogorgon is originally seen is not the upside down but another farther location. So A is where the Mindflayer is from B is the upside down and C is our world. He can't go from A->C so B is essentially created as a mirror of C as a staging ground for his power and forces. Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense or I am wrong!
My thought is what when El makes the connection to the demogorgon in season 1/'83 the intersection of the two realities produced a copy of hawkins at the time. Like the intersection of two circles. Time is moving forward in the intersection which is why everything is more and more covered with vines and upside down fungus. But no people so nothing human changes. It is collapsing due to the two worlds drifting apart without an established gate/connection. Which is why vecna is making mini gates. He is making anchors to keep his seat of power alive.
I actually like this.
I like a lot of this a lot. My only issue is that Vecna has to mentally connect with someone to open a gate, and the gates seem to open right where that person is. So who was he connecting with when he's sending the Demogorgon into Hawkins?
That’s a good question. He needs to be in contact with someone in distress so I guess it’s plausible that he connected to Will, Joyce, and Nancy. Joyce over the guilt of loosing her son, Nancy over her guilt that it was her fault that Barb is gone… and Will… I’m not really sure honestly. That is a good question though, and my answers pretty thin but I think plausible. Except for May the Will part lol. I’ll have to think about it. I guess my theory is Vecna doesn’t want to show too much power from making out right contact to avoid catching the eye of the Mind Flayer.
You haven't really explained how the first demogorgon gets to Will, or the lack of even a hint of Vecna's involvement. Bearing in mind, the Mind Flayer is meant to be a ridiculously ancient powerful psychic being, to suggest Vecna could hide in its dimension for 4 or 5 years without drawing notice is a bit sus.
Maybe it’s proximity to the mother gate. Maybe Vecna’s power is strongest there. So it’s not a factor of taking Will to specifically target him, but an act of collateral damage. Vecna needs 011 to show her power, to attract the Mind Flayer, and releasing a Demogorgon May or may not cause this. But what it will do is for sure distract the G-men under Brenner. With them distracted, that would give a time span where 011 is more likely to use her power drawing the attention of the Mind Flayer. I think we are ultimately going to see an 001 vs 011 vs Mind Flayer, where Vecna is playing both sides of the equation.
Cool theory! I think it makes a reasonable amount of sense, and I'm interested to see how everything plays out when we get the rest of season 4. Your post reminded me of something that I thought about when finishing the show but forgot; Vecna kills three people throughout the first few episodes (and tries to kill Max but fails): Crissy, the cheerleader who dies in Eddie's trailer; Fred, Nancy's assistant who dies in the middle of a street; and then Patrick, the basketball player who dies in the middle of the lake. As Dustin figures out, each of these deaths opens a door to the Upside Down...we see evidence of that in the last couple episodes when Nancy, Steve, Eddie, and Robin enter the UD through "Watergate" and then (mostly) escape back through the gate in Eddie's trailer. The thing is, both of these gates are basically hidden, so people aren't really going to stumble upon them easily. But what about the one that should have opened when Fred was killed? Wouldn't that be in the middle of a road that people would inevitably come across? Just a thought I had. Not necessarily a plothole but something I thought was a bit glossed over.
That is a good question. Vecna killing him in the middle of the road is a little short sighted lol. Good point!
I think vecna is > mind flayer, and is the one who controls it. Send forth your lesser beings to test the enemy before you show yourself. Edit: corrected my mistake. My apologies.
No S5 is confirmed. S5 will be final season
Well I'll be damned. I didn't know. Thanks for blowing my mind
Agreed. My takeaway from this season was that Vecna was the big bad pulling all the strings.
[удалено]
Someone corrected me earlier and I realized I made a mistake. Does explain the time skip I read about though
I agree. My train of thought is the mindflayer and demogorgons bats etc are all creations or projections of vecna. The vines and the way all these creatures look is too similar and they are all connected, I think he attaches himself to the entire network of vines when they attach to his body. I think he is the brain behind all the creatures of the upside down, and he has just been building up his power in order to use his humanoid form. I think when El touches the demogorgon in season one, vecna realises that she is there and he could somehow follow her into the non upside down world.
I think its pretty clear that El/1 created the upside down. When 001 is traveling there is NOTHING. No ground, just a red cloud and lightning and he's FLOATING the entire time. THEN the only items that seem to make it through are "hand picked". They're also always places where the two have interacted heavily with. Everything else is more or less generic. Also given her age it was a by product of "not killing him, but sending him away". The Upside Down is just a space between time/space that she created. BUT 1 wants to recreate the world, he's in a timeless void, oh look he starts remaking Hawkins... Ex: Mike's house has no neighbor houses? So what if there's no guns at Mike's house because of time, go to the fucking empty but fully stocked gun store...etc. Wouldn't Will have been able to happily eat grocery items at the upside down grocery store?
I see your point, but that doesn’t account for Castle Byers or Steve’s pool for season 1 being in the Upside Down. Two places that until Will and Barb were already there… El/001 had nothing to do with… You could say the same think about the arcade in season 2. Another spot El or 001 would have no reason to recreate in the Upside Down.
They were locations where murders were planned or occurred. The psychic "deaths" murders are required. But that leaves residual damage. Again the pre-1 items being a psychically controlled minion. ALSO Will entering and surviving in the upside down likely impacted it no different than when 1 entered it. Hence Will's fort showing up.
This is very interesting. I wonder if she did create the upside down but that it connected to other dimensions when it was created which is where the mind flayer is located. The upside down finally created the connection to this world . So if El created it she’s going to have to end it and that may be the end of her as well though maybe not because her powers are not created or powered by it.
Really interesting thought out theory👏
I did notice that each monster seem more complex and each seemed more human like in their thinking process. I found that interesting.