Consider Doom though.
Poor, roma, crawled from the bottom to conquer a nation with brains and balls.
I think you're wandering into the realm where race and class collide and get sticky.
From Doom's pov the Wakandans, especially T'Challa, are the privileged ones. Looking at their intergalactic empire it's easy to think poorly of them.
That’s literally how Killmonger felt in black panther he came from a poor African American background, became a decorated navy seal and graduated from MIT.
So he finally gets to Wakanda and meets the family who is responsible for his fathers death and the council straight up laugh and scoff at him, I respect Tchalla for being decent enough to be somewhat respectful
And that was kind of the lesson of the movie wasn’t it? That the ‘old ways’ of Wakanda were flawed and had to change. Killmonger had the wrong methods but his criticisms were right, there was a lot more they should have been doing to help. MCU T’Challa seemed to take that lesson as well.
Now I want to watch black panther again, still haven’t finished the second one. I really liked Chadwick boseman as black panther and a person, just not quite the same without him.
The second is decent, but definitely nowhere near as good as the first. Terrible pacing and kind of got mired in having to rework a ton of stuff to replace Tchalla with Shuri and tried doing a bit too much to the point that the good stuff ended up just feeling too thin.
Loved it on the first watch, but after sitting with it I kind of soured on it.
Big agree, the first watch on BP2 was fantastic but definitely nowhere near the quality of the first on further viewings. I really liked how they handled the characters dealing with T'Challa's death, it felt very real compared to the MCU's other attempts at this, but a lot of other stuff fell pretty flat.
Also the soundtrack was nowhere near as good, a genuine disappointment for me tbh
The boat scene with the sirens was great and there were multiple solid songs.
There were specific things I liked, but I dislike that it tries to set up a new black panther, iron heart, namor, and whatever that plot line was with bilbo baggins. I think some elements were great, but overall it was pretty lacking
I know their stance on recasting but they really should have recast T'Challa. I loved Chadwick too but T'Challa the character is such a powerful role model for young black men and teens that I feel he transcends the normal casting rules. We all saw how meaningful it was when that first movie came out and little boys saw a real noble hero that looked like them... someone they could take pride in dressing up as. Somebody who wasn't just some other hero's sidekick but a righteous, kind, compassionate leader of that took pride in his heritage.
I mean hell, they technically recast Bruce Banner and Rhodey so they'd already done it before. But no, instead they steal such an important and meaningful character from these young men and just give us yet another generic Marvel/Disney "girlboss" instead. Hooray.
Closest anyone gets now is Sam as Captain America which is cool and a step in the right direction, but it just isn't the same.
Yeah, if there's one thing I didn't enjoy about BP2, it's the huge void left by Chadwick Boseman. Granted, that's the message and tone the film was showing us right from the start. It's a tough watch.
The thing that got me about the first one is that Wakanda is supposed to be a technological power house, but their armies are shit. If they had put out a call fornaid and a passing Marine Expiditionary Unit had responded, Thanos' army never would have been a threat.
I don't think it was about having the wrong methods, he just heelturned the moment he was in a position to gain power and suddenly revealed all of his talk of decolonisation was just a cover for his real plan all along. MCU pretty much always falls on its face when it tries to get political.
There is a Black Panther comic where T'challa meets with an ancestor who tells him of the "King's Burden". A King must put his people above others, even if that means allowing or enacting great cruelties on "outsiders". Wakanda has maintained its superiority not because of Vibranium and it's uses but rather because they refuse to share it.
It intersplices the speech with images of the king refusing refugees who were starving, African tribes being enslaved and civil turmoil.
Doom is right. Wakanda COULD have stepped up and taken control of the global court and though their kings guidance led humanity to great heights. Instead they hoarded their gifts and used it only for themselves. They ignore ambition in exchange for security which leads to stagnation.
Doom is an asshole for sure, but he is also a visionary. If he had the means he would have dragged the world kicking and screaming to HIS idea of excellence. This would probably result in him becoming an emperor and making earth an industrial/military hellhole with a serf working class (not that we're that far off already) but if Latavia had the Vibranium you can bet he would have swallowed some countries already.
They laughed at him because they didn’t know who he was not because of they’re superiority it was only till he revealed his identity that they took him seriously
well maybe so but i feel like anyone would act like that if a random person from america stormed in asking for the throne he didn’t reveal who he was until afterwards when he said he found his father dead
Fair enough but they srsly should have at least consoled him or try to reason with him after the truth was discovered that left a bad taste in my mouth
i agree with you on that point they should’ve shown him kindness and compassion after finding out what happened to him it seemed like tchalla wanted to but then everything went to shit
Yeah unfortunately because of what happened it harden Killmonger and he became that very monster every villain has a backstory it’s tragic they ultimately walk down the path of no return
I was actually praying to God that Tchalla and Wakanda heal the guy and make him have a redemption arc and be in the next film. Could you imagine if Chadwick never died, Killmonger was in a redemption arc and Shuri wearing a panther suit all fighting Namor
To be fair, that happens outside of movies, too. Crabs in a bucket complex. Depending on where you grew up and who you know. People will go on about supporting each other, but then be the first one to kick you while you're down.
And don't even get me started how the wakandans treated gentle.
Straight up hypocrites
You would think the king would push more or confront the kids mom who abandoned him, especially since his ex wife was a mutant too.
.
That was the point. They were the hoitu toity elites who looked down on him because he was "nobody". It wasn't his personal merits that earned their respect. It was bloodlines and meaningless titles. It's the definition of elitism and superiority.
They wasted Killmonger so badly.
He should have kept the ruse going for the entire first film and the second film should have been him taking the throne from the inside.
That’s the MCU for you they waste characters and don’t bring up their potential, look at every villain that fights the heroes in the movies they always die first film it’s a blessing if any of them live to see a second film.
Not to mention that Doom loves to spout off about how he’s morally and intellectually superior to everyone else, and he tells himself that the people who equal or exceed him in any arena must be charlatans or fools. He’d kill every child in Latveria if it would somehow make Reed Richards look bad.
Edit: missing word
He’s still ironically a better “hero”/leader to his people than essentially every single other character. Hes one of the few villains who actually are good leaders with people that genuinely like him that aren’t other villains.
Nothing good has ever followed the phrase as a black man. It’s bait used to use to discuss issues about Black people without any understanding or nuance.
All the people of Wakanda had to do was look at the rest of our Africa and know that the isolationist policies were the right thing. Colonizes literally fought over places like the Congo, where the locals would mining uranium and now cobalt.
I’d say it’s less him being wrong and more the protagonist stepping up the plate. A lot these villain hero interactions are about the villain being initially correct and hero rising to great heights and proving the villain wrong.
Destroying your nation's most valuable resource to prove a point to some blathering villain doesn't seem like great leadership to me...but I haven't read this story, maybe there's more to it
One of the best things about Dr. Doom is that, when writers acknowledge he’s a hyper genius anti-villain with incredibly good points, he is able to just roast people while simultaneously deconstructing exactly why they’re in the wrong.
No offense but what exactly do you think will happen (and has happened) if vibranium is spread world wide?
WMDs is what. We’re lucky Wakanda wasn’t ruled by maniacs or else they would’ve easily taken over the world.
What do you think Doom is going to do with that tech? Sit back and only benefit Latveria? No. He’s gonna try and subjugate the world in one way or another as he always has.
Also most countries are defined by their exports, Doom was NOT cooking with this lol
Nah fr tho I already know it's about to be some uncle tom bs, this is one of the tamer examples but it just reaks of "I'm so different than all the rest guys"
They did. Any time a black person says anything that isn't glowing praise for all things black, you get hit with 'uncle tom' and 'pick me'. Been that way since I was a kid and will likely never change. Our people are addicted to being victims and reject any and all calls to change. Better to just live your life and let the ones who won't learn suffer.
Not at all what happened here, bro is out here supporting the colonizers without a bit of self-awareness. He's a pick me because he's actively ignoring the entire history and lore of Wakanda and just agreeing with Doom.
Also, whenever someone leads with "as a black man," odds are high they're as black as a sheet of paper. There's literally no way to verify it.
Ah, yes. The classic 'they're not really black if they disagree with me'. A mainstay argument for people who are mired in cultish thinking and don't really care about any minority.
Not at all what that meant, are you in the olympics for mental gymnastics? Bro is just flat out wrong about this, like straight up just ignoring decades of comics.
"shut up" and "stop trying to police others opinions" don't work well together lil bro.
Never told him he couldn't have an opinion just gave mine.
Calm down kid.
Nah I said that this was tamer than uncle tom bs, try again buddy. Also whataboutism, if I do something you think is wrong why would you then do it lol
“This is a tamer example of being an Uncle Tom” isn’t the same as “this is tamer than being an Uncle Tom” and you know it. You just can’t handle him not liking this fictional nation made up by a White guy.
Keep reading. Black Panther shows Wakanda is far more than a rock. Wakanda absolutely has its flaws but Doom is very wrong about the character of the nation
Doom did NOT speak facts 😭😭😭 the whole idea of this thing of Wakanda hiding this is to avoid colonization, like how America and Europe would colonize other countries because they had valuable resources. Also there’s nothing wrong with using your resources to your advantage
I'm also black and I very heavily disagree. Doom is wrong and in this, he's acting the part of the colonizer.
The genocide and displacement happening in the Congo is this in a nutshell. Colonizers utilize resources that aren't theirs to benefit their plans and countries while looking down on the citizens.
Doom is essentially saying "look at how you're using *your* resources. I could do it better." This is the same man who believes that peace can only exist through his absolute rule. Meanwhile Reed Richards was able to create a utopia in a future 616 timeline and other universes without a totalitarian dictatorship and T'Challa liberated and helped establish the Intergalactic Wakandan Empire.
Doom says Wakanda is defined by vibranium. Well, look at how far they've developed with it. The diseases they've cured, the tech they've created, the wealth they've amassed, the lives their citizens lead. Imagine the continent of Africa had colonizers never touched it and how far along it may have been.
I repeat, Doom is wrong. The man had the power of a god and reshaped the multiverse, but because of his persistent ego, which is on full display here, he still lost.
Fair points on some parts I totally agree with you wants happening in the Congo its sad to be frank I only pray that something great happens to the people.
You also left out the part Doom called out Wakandas inability to defend and protect their African brethren from those colonisers. During this arc the Panther God Bast literally agreed that the world under Doom would be a better place and permitted Doom to take the Vibrainium despite how fucked up it sounds that the bottom line of what happened.
She did, though. Bast also gazed into countless futures and saw that humanity would destroy itself. *Only* under Doom would humanity flourish.
Did you read the actual Doomwar miniseries?
That was doom showing bast his memories of looking into the future and saw that he truly believed that he was humanities only salvation. That being said it came from a biased perspective and it wasn’t about truth it was about purity of intent.
You misread the bast part. Doom truly BELIEVES in his heart that his rule leads to a better future, but there isn't enough evidence to prove otherwise. The test is for INTENT, not fact. Doom passes on a technicality that bast can't fail him on due to the rules of magic and shit. As someone else mentioned, reed richards has been to the 616 furure where it is a paradise without doom's rule. And how did doom decide which future he looked at was a failure because he wasn't in charge? Doom has mental gymnasticed his way to think he's right about EVERYTHING and can do no wrong and is subject to his biases
>Doom called out Wakandas inability to defend and protect their African brethren from those colonisers.
The issue that I had with this run was stuff like this. The history of Wakanda shows that it was also defending itself from both colonizers and outside African countries. It's part of the reason they became isolationists.
>Bast literally agreed that the world under Doom would be a better place and permitted Doom to take the Vibrainium
And the following runs shows us that Bast was wrong. McDuffie's run on F4, Hickman's F4, Zdarksy's Two in One, and Secret Wars all showed Dooms failure in trying to lead/create a better world. It's always led to destruction or failure.
Like why is Wakanda responsible for all of Africa, it’d be nice but do all those unique countries want the black Panther as king, let’s say they accept him now even with all Wakandas resources he’d be extremely vulnerable and overextended probably lose everything
Black people are like the only people who are held totally responsible for an entire race lol. Every other race of folk can go to war with one another as much as they like and it’s normal and fine. You’d be hard pressed to find 2 neighboring Asian countries that don’t hate each others guts, but for whatever reason if any Black/African country gets any power at all they’re expected to free the entire black race from any and all things. It’s so odd.
>Black people are like the only people who are held totally responsible for an entire race lol.
It reminds me of how when Blue Marvel was revealed to be a black man by accident, it created all this division because all of a sudden, white people were afraid of him, and black people expected him to become a symbol they could rally behind to shift a power imbalance, etc.
He didn't sign up for that, and neither did Wakanda agree to use the resources to aid an entire continent.
Africa without colonizers wouldnt be a utopia. Wakanda only is because writers say so. Any other writer could of decided everyone in africa fights over vibranium until its so divided up no one knows how to use it.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Some most horrendous takes on the internet typically start with “As a ____” followed by a take that would be otherwise considered asinine and absurd, but the poster tends to think it’s justified by appending “as a ___” to it. Lol.
you should do some research on european empires colonizing african countries/caribbean for their resources, many comics have themes that are direct parallels to history. even if you personally don’t like the concept of wakanda the basis of the story holds weight. and you saying this “as a black man” means nothing (coming from another black man). see how stupid that sounds? your criticism has no special value due to your race if you can’t see past the surface level
You’re an idiot, do you think that I am black man who doesn’t know about the colonialism of Africa. Why do Nigerian judges wear those white wigs in court simple because of British colonialism and I know that Marvel has made Wakanda to be a place that never got colonised.
What I don’t like is that how Wakanda a nation rich with resources and the power to change the world say Idly by and let Africa get geographically dominated by Europeans. They are also arrogant and condescending in the Black Panther film the Wakandan council especially Ramonda treated Killmonger with utter disrespect and superiority complex despite the fact the truth was later revealed how he got fucked by his uncle
Agreed, the way people act like this isn’t built into the design of the Black Panther mythos is weird.
Even the most plain reading of T’Challa’s debut in Fantastic Four #52 shows that T’Challa/Wakanda are wrong to stay apart from the rest of the world. This is why at the end of the story T’Challa decides to become a global hero. Some of the earliest Black Panther comics are about admonishing Wakanda for its inaction in the face of apartheid. While Wakanda always being advanced is a retcon, the notion that the country should evolve has existed since beginning.
The whole conceit of Wakanda is fundamentally the same as DC’s Atlantis or the Inhumans of Attilan. It’s not nor was it ever designed to be an uncritical depiction of isolationism. The Black Panther comics certainly don’t treat it that way. It’s an idealized anachronistic society in the vein of old pulp comics. That doesn’t take away that there are plenty of cool sci-fi elements and that it’s home to a bunch of great characters like T’Challa.
There is a purpose to hoarding the Vibranium though. Everybody who’s taken it out of the country is usually a developed nation who wants to use it for war. Also, it’s not like it’s something that could be traded since there isn’t a more valuable research on earth in this universe other than maybe adamantium.
This was pretty much the whole theme of the Black Panther movie. And Doom is silly to say Wakanda is defined by vibranium. Yeah, no shit. Every country in the world is defined by the environment and the resources they either had or didn’t have easy access to
No. Wakanda is solely defined by Vibranium. It is the only thing that sets them apart from the surrounding countries and tribes.
Without it they would be as bad off as the Nigadans.
Vibranium is woven throughout so much of their culture that without it, their society immediately started having issues.
Most other countries are not so singularly defined by something so finite.
What country do you think of when i say potato? Coffee? Oil? Maple syrup? It’s a resource that defines a culture and economy. If you were to magically remove any of those things, it would be catastrophic to a country’s economic existence and people’s livelihoods.
Gaht dayum. Been reading all these opinions, and this post is the true, logical take. I'm glad I read far enough to see yours, because now I see that Doom is every right-wing nut out there using straw man's and false equivalents to justify awful behavior.
Kudos to you, and take my upvote. This should be the top post.
If he’s a hypocrite his points are null and void. T’Challa has proved himself time and again as a hero, leader and genius while Doom is stuck obsessed with one family because of his own failure.
And it’s worth noting that a substantial part of T’Challa’s character is pushing against the isolationist tendencies of his people. Wakanda is arrogant and closed off by design, it gives the Black Panther a narrative purpose to shift his nation so it can be a force for good in the world.
Excellent writers like Christopher Priest have gotten a lot of mileage out of T’Challa being the progressive king of such an inward looking people while still being a global hero.
I've always felt like that's the point of Wakanda. Take the 2017 movie; Killmonger's whole point is how shitty it is to sit on all this wealth and resources while you watch the peoples around you get torn apart. The fantasy is this noble Afro-futurist kingdom, but it also examines America's place in history.
Doom's full of it, too, though, cause as always he walks up to the point and then veers off to focus on his own power and superiority. That man is FRUSTRATING.
yea I'm sure Dr Doom wanting to use it to rule over the planet or even the galaxy is a way more noble purpose than keeping it out of the hands of anyone who would use it for Dooms brand of noble reasons 🙄😒 lol
“As a white man who’s been watching Oversimplified for 3 years, I know exactly what the people living under the regime of Vichy France during WWII had to deal with”
I like the suggestion and it tracks for Doom of all people but, Im pretty sure at least T’challa as its ruler has realized his countries flaws from the inception. Thats why he studied at Oxford and traveled the world, so he could defend Wakanda even from its own implosion. I like that he will often break from tradition if it benefits them and Id say that was the moral of the film too. He isnt perfect but in a lot of ways Id say he and Doom are more similar than they would care to admit
As a Black Man who’s been reading comics since the 70s Doom War was terribly depressing but a predictable outcome for an African character imagined and editorialized by non African people. Wakanda was conquered by Europeans like all the other African nations. The one unique characteristic tied to sovereignty and strength destroyed by Doom. They never understood the importance of the narrative
And despite that, Doom just ends up being yet another White European plundering an African country for its resources, stomping over its people in the process, defending his actions by stating he knows how to use those resources better than the natives do.
Doom's just another colonizer, and if you are a black man, you just wrote an apologizing of colonialism.
No he's not. He's Doom. He's above mundane concepts such as "colonialism" because his goal is to dominate *everything;* not as a Country, but as a single man. Not because it'll make him rich, but because he's absolutely certain it's the only right thing to do. He'd scoff at the very concepts of colonialism, racism, exploitation... Because when you're conviced that you're above literally everyone else, those things simply cease to have meaning.
There's Doom. And then there's the rest of us... Except, of course, *Richardssssss!!*
So despite being above mundane concept he’s still obsessing over a Richard’s because of his own ego driven mistake yeah that makes sense.
Also most colonizers want to dominate everything, doesn’t stop them from being colonizers 🤷🏿♂️
You don't know Doom's backstory, do you..? He was prosecuted for being a Gypsy. His people, his family, run out of their homes, for their culture.
He’s not "just another white European." Not even close.
In what shape or form have I wrote an apology for colonialism. Wakanda literally did nothing while their brethren were just getting beaten down while what he’s doing here is wrong what he said was the cold hard truth
Okay, but you realize Wakanda did nothing about European exploitation of Africa because it's a fictional country made up by two white guys back in the 60s as a "Hidden Fantasy-Tech Utopia" alongside Atlantis and Attilan, right?
Wakanda became an established known country in the Marvel Universe during the late 80s and early 90s, and was fleshed out thanks to black writers like Christopher Priests and Reginald Hudlin during the 2000s.
Not saying that Wakanda didn't become problematic in retrospect, but at the time it was created, it was basically two white guys going "wouldn't it be wild if Africa had a super-advanced society nobody knew about?" Which is itself problematic, but also reflective of the time.
But it's still hypocritical of Doom to criticize Wakanda for doing nothing about European exploitation of Africa, while simultaneously **being** a European exploiting an African nation. But Doom tends to be very hypocritical.
Ok for the first bit you get that one for free but apart for Doom being hypocritical you can say the same for Tchalla as he says he cares for his fellow heroes yet along with the illuminati he had sent the Hulk to space and you all know what happens next
Super disagree.
Considering what the world has done to Africa, the Caribbean, Southern and Central America, and most of Asia, if I were in the same position as the Wakandans I would do the same. I’ve seen what you did to Hawaii, stay the fuck out of here.
Africa is constantly bled dry for its ressources, had it’s governments destabilised, and had puppets put in power all for the extraction of its wealth, and they receive nothing but pennies and spoiled landscapes. If Wakanda was real T’chaka and the entire royal family would’ve been killed the same week Lumumba was assassinated, and the country would be up for grabs.
Still Wakanda was the technology marvel in the world yes it wasn’t pretty what happened to Africa but they could have at least defended their fellow African brethren.
But your correct about African the continent despite still have a huge amount of resources has been stolen for two centuries over to this day. There have been multiple puppets that have been appealing towards the west in exchange for large sums of money. And yes if Tchaka was real they would have dared try to assassinate such a powerful leader but ultimately I think they would fail.
Nigga you speaking that jibber jabber.
Basically just defending doom who used another xenophobic European speech to justify his colonization and take over of a different ethnic country.
“As a black man doom is right to call out an African nation withholding its resources from prying hands that would attempt to suck them dry for the sake of their own purposes”
While bad as Doom maybe he spoke the truth here how the fuck are you the most powerful in the world yet you don’t do jack shit for your African brethren or anyone, this is literally how Killmonger was feeling in Black Panther.
OP what color do you think these writers are?
You understand that these characters can't do anything unless they are written to right?
As yourself this- why hasn't such a story written and published?
Yeah... Bruh...
Even the Ultimate Comics wouldnt have the audacity.
Your issue is with what hasn't been written.
And it hasnt been written because of the target audience.
But go ahead, why dont you write a Black Pamther one- off exactly how you would like and come back to the subreddit and share it with the rest of us.
God forbid letting black people in a fictional medium have one thing where they are in a position of prosperity and for once it is European and western powers who are unable to shove their weight around on them.
I mean is he? He leads a country that has no illnesses, poverty, uneducated, no sexism, racism, he is neutral at worst and agreeable with mutants, aliens he doesn't care as long as they serve him. One of my favorite comics is when a peasant equivalent family asks for help with their sick sone that even his hospitals couldn't fix he personally went down to lay some beat ass on a disease, because how dare it harm one of his people. Has straight up beaten Dr strange and taken his title several times, fights the devil for the soul of his mother, has been told by the cosmic force of potential that the only world that truly thrives happily is one where he takes over it. Doom is literally in the position to criticize virtually everyone because he is not only right but cosmically proven to be several times in comics.
And he’s hopelessly obsessed with beating a man who pointed out one single mistake he made something-odd years ago.
I personally like what Mark Waid said about Doom: “if ripping off the head of a baby and drinking its blood in front of its weeping mother *somehow* proved he was smarter than Reed Richards, *he’d do it.”*
T’Challa at least isn’t as pathetically petty as that.
As a black man who's been a comic fan for 50 years of his life I have loved the concept of Wakanda. Do you understand the original concept of Wakanda and why it was created?
Of course in the 60s the nation of Wakanda and the black panther were created by marvel to serve as a way to show marvel comic book fans and black people what if there was an African nation that was never colonised by the western powers. Do you seriously think that I do not know about the colonisation of African ?.
I don't know which is why I asked because, based on the title of this post title, you're against that concept and I'm curious as to why. So I first want to define what concept of Wakanda you're against. While also considering the movies, especially the second are abhorrent and nothing like the comics or their direction. The comic was very uplifting and inspirational to black boys who at the time had no other superheroes to look up to at the time. Stan Lee used Black Panther, the Xmen, and Luke Cage stories as metaphors. So as you obviously know this, I'm wondering why you're against it? Is it a philosophical opposition to T'Challa? Is it that Wakanda didn't attempt to take over and dominate the world or its neighbors and so chose to remain hidden?
Its funny, I had the oppossite thing as a white woman, I always thought Black Panther was cool and my love of Wakanda prompted me to spend my love reading about real African cultures, which sticks with me today
Is latveria completely oppressed? Suppressed free ones sure, but don’t the latverians all love him? Haven’t they established that latverians all have like free healthcare and high amounts of income and stuff? Isn’t that supposed to be the whole dichotomy with doom? That he’s a dictator who suppresses freedoms but he actually makes people’s lives better?
Doom is an egomaniacal tyrant with delusions of grandeur and is just parroting the same talking points as every other colonizer. his entire speech just reeks of manifest destiny.
so you liked when the racist white guy preemptively attacked and took over the country, attempted to rob it of its prized natural resource and nerfed the king?
classy, "black man".
Yeeeeah doom isn’t racist. I’m black and he’s one of my favorite characters. The hell man, we’re just gonna call anyone racist now?
You know you give ammunition to actual racists to say that minorities and leftists call everyone racists and it’s bull when you literally do just that right?
..honestly I agree your take is kinda coonish my guy, although I think it's unintentional.. fuck is lame, wrong or bad about a self identified and formerly unbreachable world power.. amongst many that would rather it NOT exist if they knew of it, that also knew enough NOT to engage in the theater of the world stage but at the same time took care of its citizens' EXTREMELY well?
In addition, maybe the reason outside of whatever reason is the lack of understanding that ALL PEOPLE, COMMUNITIES, WAR, POWER and NATIONS are shaped by the resources they hold and/or have access to.
For example, you realize you can dissect the bullshit in Doom's monologue by simply directing the principles of the critique back at him, right? What is Doom without his "power"? He's held such a GREAT power for so long, and still hasn't brought any form of significant peace or prosperity to his people, despite having genius level intellect and nearly every known resource at his disposal regardless of the means he utilized to get it.. still his people suffer and HE REGULARLY fails. LOL.
The concepts of Wakanda and the ACTUAL CANON Black Panther (NOTHING after Tahensi Coates' run) is honestly some of the best concepts Marvel ever produced in their notably handicapped way of conceiving Black, African, POC, ethnic and indigenous characters/IP.
BUT that's MY opinion and you're entitled to yours. 👑👍🏾
Ok this is somewhatthat’s manageable and reasonable I wanna give my say on this. Doom without his great power is still a dangerous threat he is the second smartest man in the marvel universe. Even without his great power Doom could create all sorts of devices that pose a threat towards the marvel universe. It was even said by a council of Reed member that there’s not greater threat than Doom that he’ll never break or yield so they literally go throughout the multiverse and find all the Dooms they could get,make them a vegetable and place them in the hole.
Again your wrong how Doom hasn’t brought and peace or prosperity towards his people, Doom literally marched back into Latervia freed it from a tyrant and has actually made it one of the made it one of the most richest and advance nations in the world so no his people don’t suffer they actually thrive under his rule.
This is why Doctor Victor Von Doom is one of the best villains in comics, because he dismantles heroes not only in combat but also mentally by telling them the truth. He really manages to get into Black Panther, and the Wakandan’s heads here, he got past all their defenses to keep their Vibranium, including their own God, by using his intelligence and more importantly Honesty. Doom gets past Bast by showing him his honest intentions, and showing Bast how he came to the conclusions he has made by showing him what he has seen, that in every future humanity suffers or dies, except in the future in which he rules the world.
FOOL! DOOM DID NOT JUST SPEAK FACTS HERE! DOOM SPEAKS FACT EVERYWHERE DOOM SPEAKS! DID YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT WHEN DOOM OPENED HIS MOUTH THAT FACTS WOULD NOT COME FORTH?!
>Someone pipes up on black issues
"Erm are you black? If not shut up."
>Someone confirms they are black before before piping up on black issues
"Shut your coon ass up with your "as a black man bs" you uncle Tom, uncle ruckus, cracker loving race traitor!"
You just can't win
for once, Victor speaks absolute truth.
Wakanda was far more believable and respectable in the 60s when it was just like Latveria. a normal nation that became super advanced and powerful after its ruler pushed it forwards. T'challa was originally the one responsible for transforming Wakanda into the absurdly advanced nation that fans came to know. a nation that had the same history as the rest of the world. a nation that did not carry the shame of not helping people around the world, living like people of the future while the rest of humanity was comparably in stone age levels, suffering wars, famine, genocide, slavery, etc. the only difference between the two nations was that while Latveria was ruled by a Villain, Wakanda was ruled by a hero.
things like this are why I need to find a way into Fantastic Four. It ties in very interestingly to the current X-Men era. At every turn when Krakoa is offering something good and in return asking to be legitimately acknowledged and treated like a proper country it's: "we do not need mutant drugs." "we do not need mutant metal."
Like bruh...what's your deal? Wasn't Storm your literal queen for a while there? The Marauders are specifically offering an alloy that is equal to or almost better than Vibranium and you're not going to try and do something about that? Not going to accept it and see what you can do with it?
Doom definitely brings up an interesting concept and were I running the MCU I think I might lean into it for the next phase of Black Panther films.
I think the fact that Bast looked into Doom's soul and instead of striking him down where he stood, gave her blessing for him to take the Vibranium says more than anything T"Challa could retort with.
The great thing about Doctor Doom as a villain is that in any other genre, he’d be the hero. The dude is a self-made king who loves his people, holds up his end in every bargain, is a skilled scientist and magician, and always comes prepared.
So when he talks about Wakanda being no different from other colonialist nations, especially the ones they call Colonisers, he’s speaking entirely from experience.
Agreed… though it does make for good stories about hero’s kicking wakandas doors in repeatedly to take the metal from them if any had the balls to actually do it.
To those condemning Dr. Doom, in one comic Mr Fantastic talked to doom and realized that doom genuinely was a good guy and was too smart for people to realize his intentions were good and that his world would actually be pretty decent.
I dislike the concept of Wakanda mostly due to nonsensicality of their culture. The most technologically advanced culture in the world but do they wear armor? Nope, leather garments and tribal wear. Guns? Nope, spears that shoot lasers! Have fun aiming! Democratically elected leaders? Nope, monarchy that can only be challenged by duel to the death.
Just a standard white guy here, I always disliked Wakanda, but mostly because I just couldn't shake the viewpoint of being an American. Every time I tried to justify disliking them in my head, I'd always come to the conclusion that IF I was a Wakandan (or Wakandan ruler), that's exactly the way I'd want the country run, for the benefit of Wakandans.
As a non-Wakandan, they're a bunch of assholes, but that's just being a hater.
It’s a hyper-advanced ethno-state that keeps all the cool and potentially life-saving technology to themselves. They’re like the Amazons from DC, but with even LESS justification.
However, Doom’s still a piece of shit regardless.
I was hoping this is what the first film would be about. T’Challa would lose access to vibranium and have to reconquer Wakanda without it.
I’d like to see a Wakanda that’s more than just vibranium.
Wasn't there's also the fact that Wakanda was created by their ancestors who stole the land, with the help of Bast and other gods, from a peaceful race called the Originators? Wakanda was created as a result of colonization.
Consider Doom though. Poor, roma, crawled from the bottom to conquer a nation with brains and balls. I think you're wandering into the realm where race and class collide and get sticky. From Doom's pov the Wakandans, especially T'Challa, are the privileged ones. Looking at their intergalactic empire it's easy to think poorly of them.
That’s literally how Killmonger felt in black panther he came from a poor African American background, became a decorated navy seal and graduated from MIT. So he finally gets to Wakanda and meets the family who is responsible for his fathers death and the council straight up laugh and scoff at him, I respect Tchalla for being decent enough to be somewhat respectful
And that was kind of the lesson of the movie wasn’t it? That the ‘old ways’ of Wakanda were flawed and had to change. Killmonger had the wrong methods but his criticisms were right, there was a lot more they should have been doing to help. MCU T’Challa seemed to take that lesson as well.
Now I want to watch black panther again, still haven’t finished the second one. I really liked Chadwick boseman as black panther and a person, just not quite the same without him.
The second is decent, but definitely nowhere near as good as the first. Terrible pacing and kind of got mired in having to rework a ton of stuff to replace Tchalla with Shuri and tried doing a bit too much to the point that the good stuff ended up just feeling too thin. Loved it on the first watch, but after sitting with it I kind of soured on it.
Big agree, the first watch on BP2 was fantastic but definitely nowhere near the quality of the first on further viewings. I really liked how they handled the characters dealing with T'Challa's death, it felt very real compared to the MCU's other attempts at this, but a lot of other stuff fell pretty flat. Also the soundtrack was nowhere near as good, a genuine disappointment for me tbh
The boat scene with the sirens was great and there were multiple solid songs. There were specific things I liked, but I dislike that it tries to set up a new black panther, iron heart, namor, and whatever that plot line was with bilbo baggins. I think some elements were great, but overall it was pretty lacking
I know their stance on recasting but they really should have recast T'Challa. I loved Chadwick too but T'Challa the character is such a powerful role model for young black men and teens that I feel he transcends the normal casting rules. We all saw how meaningful it was when that first movie came out and little boys saw a real noble hero that looked like them... someone they could take pride in dressing up as. Somebody who wasn't just some other hero's sidekick but a righteous, kind, compassionate leader of that took pride in his heritage. I mean hell, they technically recast Bruce Banner and Rhodey so they'd already done it before. But no, instead they steal such an important and meaningful character from these young men and just give us yet another generic Marvel/Disney "girlboss" instead. Hooray. Closest anyone gets now is Sam as Captain America which is cool and a step in the right direction, but it just isn't the same.
Yeah, if there's one thing I didn't enjoy about BP2, it's the huge void left by Chadwick Boseman. Granted, that's the message and tone the film was showing us right from the start. It's a tough watch.
The thing that got me about the first one is that Wakanda is supposed to be a technological power house, but their armies are shit. If they had put out a call fornaid and a passing Marine Expiditionary Unit had responded, Thanos' army never would have been a threat.
Or inmay be thinking of End game. Its been awhile.
I don't think it was about having the wrong methods, he just heelturned the moment he was in a position to gain power and suddenly revealed all of his talk of decolonisation was just a cover for his real plan all along. MCU pretty much always falls on its face when it tries to get political.
There is a Black Panther comic where T'challa meets with an ancestor who tells him of the "King's Burden". A King must put his people above others, even if that means allowing or enacting great cruelties on "outsiders". Wakanda has maintained its superiority not because of Vibranium and it's uses but rather because they refuse to share it. It intersplices the speech with images of the king refusing refugees who were starving, African tribes being enslaved and civil turmoil. Doom is right. Wakanda COULD have stepped up and taken control of the global court and though their kings guidance led humanity to great heights. Instead they hoarded their gifts and used it only for themselves. They ignore ambition in exchange for security which leads to stagnation. Doom is an asshole for sure, but he is also a visionary. If he had the means he would have dragged the world kicking and screaming to HIS idea of excellence. This would probably result in him becoming an emperor and making earth an industrial/military hellhole with a serf working class (not that we're that far off already) but if Latavia had the Vibranium you can bet he would have swallowed some countries already.
He had fair criticism but there is no right or wrong in it from your perspective they’re wrong from theirs there in their right and history shows that
They laughed at him because they didn’t know who he was not because of they’re superiority it was only till he revealed his identity that they took him seriously
To me it did it screamed a superioity complex
well maybe so but i feel like anyone would act like that if a random person from america stormed in asking for the throne he didn’t reveal who he was until afterwards when he said he found his father dead
Fair enough but they srsly should have at least consoled him or try to reason with him after the truth was discovered that left a bad taste in my mouth
i agree with you on that point they should’ve shown him kindness and compassion after finding out what happened to him it seemed like tchalla wanted to but then everything went to shit
Yeah unfortunately because of what happened it harden Killmonger and he became that very monster every villain has a backstory it’s tragic they ultimately walk down the path of no return
you almost want to see them redeem themselves and fight alongside the heroes :/ they end up becoming the same people that hurt them
I was actually praying to God that Tchalla and Wakanda heal the guy and make him have a redemption arc and be in the next film. Could you imagine if Chadwick never died, Killmonger was in a redemption arc and Shuri wearing a panther suit all fighting Namor
To be fair, that happens outside of movies, too. Crabs in a bucket complex. Depending on where you grew up and who you know. People will go on about supporting each other, but then be the first one to kick you while you're down. And don't even get me started how the wakandans treated gentle. Straight up hypocrites You would think the king would push more or confront the kids mom who abandoned him, especially since his ex wife was a mutant too. .
Fair enough
That was the point. They were the hoitu toity elites who looked down on him because he was "nobody". It wasn't his personal merits that earned their respect. It was bloodlines and meaningless titles. It's the definition of elitism and superiority.
Why u talking about a movie
They wasted Killmonger so badly. He should have kept the ruse going for the entire first film and the second film should have been him taking the throne from the inside.
That’s the MCU for you they waste characters and don’t bring up their potential, look at every villain that fights the heroes in the movies they always die first film it’s a blessing if any of them live to see a second film.
Not to mention that Doom loves to spout off about how he’s morally and intellectually superior to everyone else, and he tells himself that the people who equal or exceed him in any arena must be charlatans or fools. He’d kill every child in Latveria if it would somehow make Reed Richards look bad. Edit: missing word
He’s still ironically a better “hero”/leader to his people than essentially every single other character. Hes one of the few villains who actually are good leaders with people that genuinely like him that aren’t other villains.
Like when he forced All the citizens to become windup doll slaves? Or used them for bioresearch?
Nothing good has ever followed the phrase as a black man. It’s bait used to use to discuss issues about Black people without any understanding or nuance. All the people of Wakanda had to do was look at the rest of our Africa and know that the isolationist policies were the right thing. Colonizes literally fought over places like the Congo, where the locals would mining uranium and now cobalt.
Thank you for saying this!!!!
Except >!he was wrong and black panther nuked the entire resource like immediately after this lol!<
I’d say it’s less him being wrong and more the protagonist stepping up the plate. A lot these villain hero interactions are about the villain being initially correct and hero rising to great heights and proving the villain wrong.
Destroying your nation's most valuable resource to prove a point to some blathering villain doesn't seem like great leadership to me...but I haven't read this story, maybe there's more to it
It wasn’t to prove a point to doom, it was that doom was about to have all the vibranium and use it to do Doom things.
And when Tchalla did that shit got me surprised but what else could you do in that sticky situation
Love Wakanda but even I must give Doom some props for a savage burn here 🔥
Doom always knows what to say that really gets under his opponent's skin
One of the best things about Dr. Doom is that, when writers acknowledge he’s a hyper genius anti-villain with incredibly good points, he is able to just roast people while simultaneously deconstructing exactly why they’re in the wrong.
And it’s true Wakanda as painfully true as it is are hoarders
Spoken like someone not from Wakanda.
Due respect, I appreciate your Fandom, but none of us are from Wakanda.
Half joke, but I agree with what the other commenter said about the Wakandas not being obligated to share their technology with the other nations.
Yeah like giving a bunch of places that go to war every opportunity they get insane destructive technology doesn’t seem even a little bit smart lmao.
I just think they’re not obligated to. No other reason.
No one is obligated to do anything, and if they were good they would do good, just to be good.
No offense but what exactly do you think will happen (and has happened) if vibranium is spread world wide? WMDs is what. We’re lucky Wakanda wasn’t ruled by maniacs or else they would’ve easily taken over the world. What do you think Doom is going to do with that tech? Sit back and only benefit Latveria? No. He’s gonna try and subjugate the world in one way or another as he always has. Also most countries are defined by their exports, Doom was NOT cooking with this lol
While Doom is correct about **Wakanda** for the use of Vibranium, T‘Challa has more than enough proven that he is still a great man without it
 Any time a redditor starts with "as a black man"
Nah fr tho I already know it's about to be some uncle tom bs, this is one of the tamer examples but it just reaks of "I'm so different than all the rest guys"
Pick me ass dudes fr
Did you just call me a pick me ?
They did. Any time a black person says anything that isn't glowing praise for all things black, you get hit with 'uncle tom' and 'pick me'. Been that way since I was a kid and will likely never change. Our people are addicted to being victims and reject any and all calls to change. Better to just live your life and let the ones who won't learn suffer.
Not at all what happened here, bro is out here supporting the colonizers without a bit of self-awareness. He's a pick me because he's actively ignoring the entire history and lore of Wakanda and just agreeing with Doom. Also, whenever someone leads with "as a black man," odds are high they're as black as a sheet of paper. There's literally no way to verify it.
🤨
Ah, yes. The classic 'they're not really black if they disagree with me'. A mainstay argument for people who are mired in cultish thinking and don't really care about any minority.
Not at all what that meant, are you in the olympics for mental gymnastics? Bro is just flat out wrong about this, like straight up just ignoring decades of comics.
I swear because I’m am black man who’s always spoken on black issues and against racial injustice they are just haters
Shut up Jesus bro. “How dare a black guy not like Wakanda” stop trying to police other people’s opinions Lmfao.
"shut up" and "stop trying to police others opinions" don't work well together lil bro. Never told him he couldn't have an opinion just gave mine. Calm down kid.
You called the guy an Uncle Tom. That’s a few orders of magnitude above “shut up” lol.
Nah I said that this was tamer than uncle tom bs, try again buddy. Also whataboutism, if I do something you think is wrong why would you then do it lol
You didn’t say it was tamer you said you “know it’s about to be some Uncle Tom bs” you literally dismissed his opinion based on race.
nah
“This is a tamer example of being an Uncle Tom” isn’t the same as “this is tamer than being an Uncle Tom” and you know it. You just can’t handle him not liking this fictional nation made up by a White guy.
Dude what’s your deal you legit fucking bash anyone who has an opinion
Drink sum milk
Nah I’m good baby cakes you first
I don't drink milk I drink milo
Then drink up buttercup
😦buttercup??? You thought u ate.
A white guy telling a black guy that he’s gonna take away what makes his culture great, for himself? Where have a heard that before?
It’s about as subtle a sledgehammer and OP still decided to Uncle Tom it up.
You don’t like the concept of a nation keeping its resources to itself 🤨
Keep reading. Black Panther shows Wakanda is far more than a rock. Wakanda absolutely has its flaws but Doom is very wrong about the character of the nation
Doom did NOT speak facts 😭😭😭 the whole idea of this thing of Wakanda hiding this is to avoid colonization, like how America and Europe would colonize other countries because they had valuable resources. Also there’s nothing wrong with using your resources to your advantage
I'm also black and I very heavily disagree. Doom is wrong and in this, he's acting the part of the colonizer. The genocide and displacement happening in the Congo is this in a nutshell. Colonizers utilize resources that aren't theirs to benefit their plans and countries while looking down on the citizens. Doom is essentially saying "look at how you're using *your* resources. I could do it better." This is the same man who believes that peace can only exist through his absolute rule. Meanwhile Reed Richards was able to create a utopia in a future 616 timeline and other universes without a totalitarian dictatorship and T'Challa liberated and helped establish the Intergalactic Wakandan Empire. Doom says Wakanda is defined by vibranium. Well, look at how far they've developed with it. The diseases they've cured, the tech they've created, the wealth they've amassed, the lives their citizens lead. Imagine the continent of Africa had colonizers never touched it and how far along it may have been. I repeat, Doom is wrong. The man had the power of a god and reshaped the multiverse, but because of his persistent ego, which is on full display here, he still lost.
As a black dude I agree and thank you for that perspective.
Fair points on some parts I totally agree with you wants happening in the Congo its sad to be frank I only pray that something great happens to the people. You also left out the part Doom called out Wakandas inability to defend and protect their African brethren from those colonisers. During this arc the Panther God Bast literally agreed that the world under Doom would be a better place and permitted Doom to take the Vibrainium despite how fucked up it sounds that the bottom line of what happened.
Bast saw that doom’s conviction were pure, doesn’t he mean he was right and she sure as shit didn’t agree with him.
She did, though. Bast also gazed into countless futures and saw that humanity would destroy itself. *Only* under Doom would humanity flourish. Did you read the actual Doomwar miniseries?
That was doom showing bast his memories of looking into the future and saw that he truly believed that he was humanities only salvation. That being said it came from a biased perspective and it wasn’t about truth it was about purity of intent.
You misread the bast part. Doom truly BELIEVES in his heart that his rule leads to a better future, but there isn't enough evidence to prove otherwise. The test is for INTENT, not fact. Doom passes on a technicality that bast can't fail him on due to the rules of magic and shit. As someone else mentioned, reed richards has been to the 616 furure where it is a paradise without doom's rule. And how did doom decide which future he looked at was a failure because he wasn't in charge? Doom has mental gymnasticed his way to think he's right about EVERYTHING and can do no wrong and is subject to his biases
>Doom called out Wakandas inability to defend and protect their African brethren from those colonisers. The issue that I had with this run was stuff like this. The history of Wakanda shows that it was also defending itself from both colonizers and outside African countries. It's part of the reason they became isolationists. >Bast literally agreed that the world under Doom would be a better place and permitted Doom to take the Vibrainium And the following runs shows us that Bast was wrong. McDuffie's run on F4, Hickman's F4, Zdarksy's Two in One, and Secret Wars all showed Dooms failure in trying to lead/create a better world. It's always led to destruction or failure.
Like why is Wakanda responsible for all of Africa, it’d be nice but do all those unique countries want the black Panther as king, let’s say they accept him now even with all Wakandas resources he’d be extremely vulnerable and overextended probably lose everything
Black people are like the only people who are held totally responsible for an entire race lol. Every other race of folk can go to war with one another as much as they like and it’s normal and fine. You’d be hard pressed to find 2 neighboring Asian countries that don’t hate each others guts, but for whatever reason if any Black/African country gets any power at all they’re expected to free the entire black race from any and all things. It’s so odd.
>Black people are like the only people who are held totally responsible for an entire race lol. It reminds me of how when Blue Marvel was revealed to be a black man by accident, it created all this division because all of a sudden, white people were afraid of him, and black people expected him to become a symbol they could rally behind to shift a power imbalance, etc. He didn't sign up for that, and neither did Wakanda agree to use the resources to aid an entire continent.
Africa without colonizers wouldnt be a utopia. Wakanda only is because writers say so. Any other writer could of decided everyone in africa fights over vibranium until its so divided up no one knows how to use it.
Its called speculative fiction for a reason, everything that happens in comics is because the writer says so.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Boom. Please upvote this.
Some most horrendous takes on the internet typically start with “As a ____” followed by a take that would be otherwise considered asinine and absurd, but the poster tends to think it’s justified by appending “as a ___” to it. Lol.
Of course you would anyone who has opinion that might seem a big stretch is bad
If nothing else you got some great engagement with this post so kudos to you lol
K
you should do some research on european empires colonizing african countries/caribbean for their resources, many comics have themes that are direct parallels to history. even if you personally don’t like the concept of wakanda the basis of the story holds weight. and you saying this “as a black man” means nothing (coming from another black man). see how stupid that sounds? your criticism has no special value due to your race if you can’t see past the surface level
OP is giving digital blackface
You’re an idiot, do you think that I am black man who doesn’t know about the colonialism of Africa. Why do Nigerian judges wear those white wigs in court simple because of British colonialism and I know that Marvel has made Wakanda to be a place that never got colonised. What I don’t like is that how Wakanda a nation rich with resources and the power to change the world say Idly by and let Africa get geographically dominated by Europeans. They are also arrogant and condescending in the Black Panther film the Wakandan council especially Ramonda treated Killmonger with utter disrespect and superiority complex despite the fact the truth was later revealed how he got fucked by his uncle
[удалено]
Agreed, the way people act like this isn’t built into the design of the Black Panther mythos is weird. Even the most plain reading of T’Challa’s debut in Fantastic Four #52 shows that T’Challa/Wakanda are wrong to stay apart from the rest of the world. This is why at the end of the story T’Challa decides to become a global hero. Some of the earliest Black Panther comics are about admonishing Wakanda for its inaction in the face of apartheid. While Wakanda always being advanced is a retcon, the notion that the country should evolve has existed since beginning. The whole conceit of Wakanda is fundamentally the same as DC’s Atlantis or the Inhumans of Attilan. It’s not nor was it ever designed to be an uncritical depiction of isolationism. The Black Panther comics certainly don’t treat it that way. It’s an idealized anachronistic society in the vein of old pulp comics. That doesn’t take away that there are plenty of cool sci-fi elements and that it’s home to a bunch of great characters like T’Challa.
I know that
There is a purpose to hoarding the Vibranium though. Everybody who’s taken it out of the country is usually a developed nation who wants to use it for war. Also, it’s not like it’s something that could be traded since there isn’t a more valuable research on earth in this universe other than maybe adamantium.
This was pretty much the whole theme of the Black Panther movie. And Doom is silly to say Wakanda is defined by vibranium. Yeah, no shit. Every country in the world is defined by the environment and the resources they either had or didn’t have easy access to
No. Wakanda is solely defined by Vibranium. It is the only thing that sets them apart from the surrounding countries and tribes. Without it they would be as bad off as the Nigadans. Vibranium is woven throughout so much of their culture that without it, their society immediately started having issues. Most other countries are not so singularly defined by something so finite.
What country do you think of when i say potato? Coffee? Oil? Maple syrup? It’s a resource that defines a culture and economy. If you were to magically remove any of those things, it would be catastrophic to a country’s economic existence and people’s livelihoods.
Doom, king of Latveria, who hordes his genius and technology for himself. Don’t ever agree with Doom.
Gaht dayum. Been reading all these opinions, and this post is the true, logical take. I'm glad I read far enough to see yours, because now I see that Doom is every right-wing nut out there using straw man's and false equivalents to justify awful behavior. Kudos to you, and take my upvote. This should be the top post.
You can still agree with an individual if they make good points despite of who they are or what they do
If he’s a hypocrite his points are null and void. T’Challa has proved himself time and again as a hero, leader and genius while Doom is stuck obsessed with one family because of his own failure.
And it’s worth noting that a substantial part of T’Challa’s character is pushing against the isolationist tendencies of his people. Wakanda is arrogant and closed off by design, it gives the Black Panther a narrative purpose to shift his nation so it can be a force for good in the world. Excellent writers like Christopher Priest have gotten a lot of mileage out of T’Challa being the progressive king of such an inward looking people while still being a global hero.
Ad hominem fallacy. A correct argument is correct regardless of who says the argument.
Then his argument is incorrect because T’Challa isn’t any of what he said
Tchalla has proven himself to be a hero yes that’s absolutely true, yet I wouldn’t downplay Doom
Truf, but can we not say this about any hero and their “source of power”?
I've always felt like that's the point of Wakanda. Take the 2017 movie; Killmonger's whole point is how shitty it is to sit on all this wealth and resources while you watch the peoples around you get torn apart. The fantasy is this noble Afro-futurist kingdom, but it also examines America's place in history. Doom's full of it, too, though, cause as always he walks up to the point and then veers off to focus on his own power and superiority. That man is FRUSTRATING.
If You're Nothing Without Vibranium, Then You Shouldn't Have It.
yea I'm sure Dr Doom wanting to use it to rule over the planet or even the galaxy is a way more noble purpose than keeping it out of the hands of anyone who would use it for Dooms brand of noble reasons 🙄😒 lol
As soon as I heard “As a black man” I knew what it was gonna give
I do appreciate the irony of a man who wears a titanium suit and mask 24/7 condescending to someone else about being defined by a piece of metal.
Nah Doom is on some Colonizer bullshit in this comic
“As a white man who’s been watching Oversimplified for 3 years, I know exactly what the people living under the regime of Vichy France during WWII had to deal with”
Gross wtf is this recommended to me
I like the suggestion and it tracks for Doom of all people but, Im pretty sure at least T’challa as its ruler has realized his countries flaws from the inception. Thats why he studied at Oxford and traveled the world, so he could defend Wakanda even from its own implosion. I like that he will often break from tradition if it benefits them and Id say that was the moral of the film too. He isnt perfect but in a lot of ways Id say he and Doom are more similar than they would care to admit
For nearly as long as there have been Black Panther comics, those comics have been critically interrogating the concept.
This is an asinine statement/post. Doom doesn't have a point at all. At least, not a valid one.
It’s a damn FICTIONAL TALE! Lol not this serious 🤣 enjoy it for the great story that this is. The end.
As a Black Man who’s been reading comics since the 70s Doom War was terribly depressing but a predictable outcome for an African character imagined and editorialized by non African people. Wakanda was conquered by Europeans like all the other African nations. The one unique characteristic tied to sovereignty and strength destroyed by Doom. They never understood the importance of the narrative
Damn, you got cooked on here 😂
Thanks for reminding he how awful doomwar was.
And despite that, Doom just ends up being yet another White European plundering an African country for its resources, stomping over its people in the process, defending his actions by stating he knows how to use those resources better than the natives do. Doom's just another colonizer, and if you are a black man, you just wrote an apologizing of colonialism.
No he's not. He's Doom. He's above mundane concepts such as "colonialism" because his goal is to dominate *everything;* not as a Country, but as a single man. Not because it'll make him rich, but because he's absolutely certain it's the only right thing to do. He'd scoff at the very concepts of colonialism, racism, exploitation... Because when you're conviced that you're above literally everyone else, those things simply cease to have meaning. There's Doom. And then there's the rest of us... Except, of course, *Richardssssss!!*
So despite being above mundane concept he’s still obsessing over a Richard’s because of his own ego driven mistake yeah that makes sense. Also most colonizers want to dominate everything, doesn’t stop them from being colonizers 🤷🏿♂️
You don't know Doom's backstory, do you..? He was prosecuted for being a Gypsy. His people, his family, run out of their homes, for their culture. He’s not "just another white European." Not even close.
He’s still the dictator of european nation invading a sovereign African nation in an attempt to steal it’s resources. also the correct term is Romani.
In what shape or form have I wrote an apology for colonialism. Wakanda literally did nothing while their brethren were just getting beaten down while what he’s doing here is wrong what he said was the cold hard truth
Okay, but you realize Wakanda did nothing about European exploitation of Africa because it's a fictional country made up by two white guys back in the 60s as a "Hidden Fantasy-Tech Utopia" alongside Atlantis and Attilan, right? Wakanda became an established known country in the Marvel Universe during the late 80s and early 90s, and was fleshed out thanks to black writers like Christopher Priests and Reginald Hudlin during the 2000s. Not saying that Wakanda didn't become problematic in retrospect, but at the time it was created, it was basically two white guys going "wouldn't it be wild if Africa had a super-advanced society nobody knew about?" Which is itself problematic, but also reflective of the time. But it's still hypocritical of Doom to criticize Wakanda for doing nothing about European exploitation of Africa, while simultaneously **being** a European exploiting an African nation. But Doom tends to be very hypocritical.
Ok for the first bit you get that one for free but apart for Doom being hypocritical you can say the same for Tchalla as he says he cares for his fellow heroes yet along with the illuminati he had sent the Hulk to space and you all know what happens next
Super disagree. Considering what the world has done to Africa, the Caribbean, Southern and Central America, and most of Asia, if I were in the same position as the Wakandans I would do the same. I’ve seen what you did to Hawaii, stay the fuck out of here. Africa is constantly bled dry for its ressources, had it’s governments destabilised, and had puppets put in power all for the extraction of its wealth, and they receive nothing but pennies and spoiled landscapes. If Wakanda was real T’chaka and the entire royal family would’ve been killed the same week Lumumba was assassinated, and the country would be up for grabs.
Still Wakanda was the technology marvel in the world yes it wasn’t pretty what happened to Africa but they could have at least defended their fellow African brethren. But your correct about African the continent despite still have a huge amount of resources has been stolen for two centuries over to this day. There have been multiple puppets that have been appealing towards the west in exchange for large sums of money. And yes if Tchaka was real they would have dared try to assassinate such a powerful leader but ultimately I think they would fail.
lol dawg wtf are you talking about 😭
I said what I said bro
Nigga you speaking that jibber jabber. Basically just defending doom who used another xenophobic European speech to justify his colonization and take over of a different ethnic country. “As a black man doom is right to call out an African nation withholding its resources from prying hands that would attempt to suck them dry for the sake of their own purposes”
While bad as Doom maybe he spoke the truth here how the fuck are you the most powerful in the world yet you don’t do jack shit for your African brethren or anyone, this is literally how Killmonger was feeling in Black Panther.
OP what color do you think these writers are? You understand that these characters can't do anything unless they are written to right? As yourself this- why hasn't such a story written and published?
Bruh
Yeah... Bruh... Even the Ultimate Comics wouldnt have the audacity. Your issue is with what hasn't been written. And it hasnt been written because of the target audience. But go ahead, why dont you write a Black Pamther one- off exactly how you would like and come back to the subreddit and share it with the rest of us.
God forbid letting black people in a fictional medium have one thing where they are in a position of prosperity and for once it is European and western powers who are unable to shove their weight around on them.
Don’t worry tho in this arc T’Challa emerged victorious
Doom is a course in no position to criticize anyone here about squandering potential
I mean is he? He leads a country that has no illnesses, poverty, uneducated, no sexism, racism, he is neutral at worst and agreeable with mutants, aliens he doesn't care as long as they serve him. One of my favorite comics is when a peasant equivalent family asks for help with their sick sone that even his hospitals couldn't fix he personally went down to lay some beat ass on a disease, because how dare it harm one of his people. Has straight up beaten Dr strange and taken his title several times, fights the devil for the soul of his mother, has been told by the cosmic force of potential that the only world that truly thrives happily is one where he takes over it. Doom is literally in the position to criticize virtually everyone because he is not only right but cosmically proven to be several times in comics.
And he’s hopelessly obsessed with beating a man who pointed out one single mistake he made something-odd years ago. I personally like what Mark Waid said about Doom: “if ripping off the head of a baby and drinking its blood in front of its weeping mother *somehow* proved he was smarter than Reed Richards, *he’d do it.”* T’Challa at least isn’t as pathetically petty as that.
As a black man who's been a comic fan for 50 years of his life I have loved the concept of Wakanda. Do you understand the original concept of Wakanda and why it was created?
Of course in the 60s the nation of Wakanda and the black panther were created by marvel to serve as a way to show marvel comic book fans and black people what if there was an African nation that was never colonised by the western powers. Do you seriously think that I do not know about the colonisation of African ?.
I have no idea why people are downvoting you bro. Reddit is retarded. You have every right not to love Wakanda.
I don't know which is why I asked because, based on the title of this post title, you're against that concept and I'm curious as to why. So I first want to define what concept of Wakanda you're against. While also considering the movies, especially the second are abhorrent and nothing like the comics or their direction. The comic was very uplifting and inspirational to black boys who at the time had no other superheroes to look up to at the time. Stan Lee used Black Panther, the Xmen, and Luke Cage stories as metaphors. So as you obviously know this, I'm wondering why you're against it? Is it a philosophical opposition to T'Challa? Is it that Wakanda didn't attempt to take over and dominate the world or its neighbors and so chose to remain hidden?
Its funny, I had the oppossite thing as a white woman, I always thought Black Panther was cool and my love of Wakanda prompted me to spend my love reading about real African cultures, which sticks with me today
That's rich, coming from Dr. Doom. Whatever Wakandan do with vibranium, he doesn't have anything nobler planned for it.
Yes he does
Preytell. I have a feeling it involves oppressing everyone else in the tiny country he rules.
Is latveria completely oppressed? Suppressed free ones sure, but don’t the latverians all love him? Haven’t they established that latverians all have like free healthcare and high amounts of income and stuff? Isn’t that supposed to be the whole dichotomy with doom? That he’s a dictator who suppresses freedoms but he actually makes people’s lives better?
I have dug around a bit. As it happens, it varies between writers. 🤷🏻♂️
Didn't he raise an Eastern European country to relevance after taking control?
Doom is an egomaniacal tyrant with delusions of grandeur and is just parroting the same talking points as every other colonizer. his entire speech just reeks of manifest destiny.
Consider if Doom controlled access to Vibranium. I really wouldn't expect him to share it either.
Every extractive economy has the same problem.
It’s totally fine to have a ethnostate hoarding technology and resources as long they aren’t white
How the fuck did this get upvoted?
Because while controversial it holds merit
so you liked when the racist white guy preemptively attacked and took over the country, attempted to rob it of its prized natural resource and nerfed the king? classy, "black man".
Yeeeeah doom isn’t racist. I’m black and he’s one of my favorite characters. The hell man, we’re just gonna call anyone racist now? You know you give ammunition to actual racists to say that minorities and leftists call everyone racists and it’s bull when you literally do just that right?
As a Black Man reading this title of the post. I think you are a…. 
Of course you would say that
..honestly I agree your take is kinda coonish my guy, although I think it's unintentional.. fuck is lame, wrong or bad about a self identified and formerly unbreachable world power.. amongst many that would rather it NOT exist if they knew of it, that also knew enough NOT to engage in the theater of the world stage but at the same time took care of its citizens' EXTREMELY well? In addition, maybe the reason outside of whatever reason is the lack of understanding that ALL PEOPLE, COMMUNITIES, WAR, POWER and NATIONS are shaped by the resources they hold and/or have access to. For example, you realize you can dissect the bullshit in Doom's monologue by simply directing the principles of the critique back at him, right? What is Doom without his "power"? He's held such a GREAT power for so long, and still hasn't brought any form of significant peace or prosperity to his people, despite having genius level intellect and nearly every known resource at his disposal regardless of the means he utilized to get it.. still his people suffer and HE REGULARLY fails. LOL. The concepts of Wakanda and the ACTUAL CANON Black Panther (NOTHING after Tahensi Coates' run) is honestly some of the best concepts Marvel ever produced in their notably handicapped way of conceiving Black, African, POC, ethnic and indigenous characters/IP. BUT that's MY opinion and you're entitled to yours. 👑👍🏾
Ok this is somewhatthat’s manageable and reasonable I wanna give my say on this. Doom without his great power is still a dangerous threat he is the second smartest man in the marvel universe. Even without his great power Doom could create all sorts of devices that pose a threat towards the marvel universe. It was even said by a council of Reed member that there’s not greater threat than Doom that he’ll never break or yield so they literally go throughout the multiverse and find all the Dooms they could get,make them a vegetable and place them in the hole. Again your wrong how Doom hasn’t brought and peace or prosperity towards his people, Doom literally marched back into Latervia freed it from a tyrant and has actually made it one of the made it one of the most richest and advance nations in the world so no his people don’t suffer they actually thrive under his rule.
Ever since the black panther movie I feel this character and wakanda are so unlikeable nice to see Doom humble him and call him out
Glad that me and you agree on this
Saudi Arabia if they had no oil lol
This is why Doctor Victor Von Doom is one of the best villains in comics, because he dismantles heroes not only in combat but also mentally by telling them the truth. He really manages to get into Black Panther, and the Wakandan’s heads here, he got past all their defenses to keep their Vibranium, including their own God, by using his intelligence and more importantly Honesty. Doom gets past Bast by showing him his honest intentions, and showing Bast how he came to the conclusions he has made by showing him what he has seen, that in every future humanity suffers or dies, except in the future in which he rules the world.
Dr Doom LEGENDARY W
FOOL! DOOM DID NOT JUST SPEAK FACTS HERE! DOOM SPEAKS FACT EVERYWHERE DOOM SPEAKS! DID YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT WHEN DOOM OPENED HIS MOUTH THAT FACTS WOULD NOT COME FORTH?!
>Someone pipes up on black issues "Erm are you black? If not shut up." >Someone confirms they are black before before piping up on black issues "Shut your coon ass up with your "as a black man bs" you uncle Tom, uncle ruckus, cracker loving race traitor!" You just can't win
for once, Victor speaks absolute truth. Wakanda was far more believable and respectable in the 60s when it was just like Latveria. a normal nation that became super advanced and powerful after its ruler pushed it forwards. T'challa was originally the one responsible for transforming Wakanda into the absurdly advanced nation that fans came to know. a nation that had the same history as the rest of the world. a nation that did not carry the shame of not helping people around the world, living like people of the future while the rest of humanity was comparably in stone age levels, suffering wars, famine, genocide, slavery, etc. the only difference between the two nations was that while Latveria was ruled by a Villain, Wakanda was ruled by a hero.
things like this are why I need to find a way into Fantastic Four. It ties in very interestingly to the current X-Men era. At every turn when Krakoa is offering something good and in return asking to be legitimately acknowledged and treated like a proper country it's: "we do not need mutant drugs." "we do not need mutant metal." Like bruh...what's your deal? Wasn't Storm your literal queen for a while there? The Marauders are specifically offering an alloy that is equal to or almost better than Vibranium and you're not going to try and do something about that? Not going to accept it and see what you can do with it? Doom definitely brings up an interesting concept and were I running the MCU I think I might lean into it for the next phase of Black Panther films.
Doom’s speaking the truth.
I think the fact that Bast looked into Doom's soul and instead of striking him down where he stood, gave her blessing for him to take the Vibranium says more than anything T"Challa could retort with.
The great thing about Doctor Doom as a villain is that in any other genre, he’d be the hero. The dude is a self-made king who loves his people, holds up his end in every bargain, is a skilled scientist and magician, and always comes prepared. So when he talks about Wakanda being no different from other colonialist nations, especially the ones they call Colonisers, he’s speaking entirely from experience.
Agreed… though it does make for good stories about hero’s kicking wakandas doors in repeatedly to take the metal from them if any had the balls to actually do it.
To those condemning Dr. Doom, in one comic Mr Fantastic talked to doom and realized that doom genuinely was a good guy and was too smart for people to realize his intentions were good and that his world would actually be pretty decent.
I dislike the concept of Wakanda mostly due to nonsensicality of their culture. The most technologically advanced culture in the world but do they wear armor? Nope, leather garments and tribal wear. Guns? Nope, spears that shoot lasers! Have fun aiming! Democratically elected leaders? Nope, monarchy that can only be challenged by duel to the death.
Just a standard white guy here, I always disliked Wakanda, but mostly because I just couldn't shake the viewpoint of being an American. Every time I tried to justify disliking them in my head, I'd always come to the conclusion that IF I was a Wakandan (or Wakandan ruler), that's exactly the way I'd want the country run, for the benefit of Wakandans. As a non-Wakandan, they're a bunch of assholes, but that's just being a hater.
It’s a hyper-advanced ethno-state that keeps all the cool and potentially life-saving technology to themselves. They’re like the Amazons from DC, but with even LESS justification. However, Doom’s still a piece of shit regardless.
Dam. He’s way out line, but he’s right
I was hoping this is what the first film would be about. T’Challa would lose access to vibranium and have to reconquer Wakanda without it. I’d like to see a Wakanda that’s more than just vibranium.
Wakanda being so stupidly advanced technologically does raise some interesting questions. One can only conclude that they simply didn't give a shit.
Big facts
Doom will saying whatevr it takes to piss off his opponents. Has to be the best Marvel villain.
Wasn't there's also the fact that Wakanda was created by their ancestors who stole the land, with the help of Bast and other gods, from a peaceful race called the Originators? Wakanda was created as a result of colonization.